Guild Wars 2

Discipline is a trait line for the warrior that focuses on improving adrenaline gain and switching weapons in combat.
Per point:
Critical Damage +1%
Burst Damage +0.1%
Source: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Discipline

Issue:
Warrior’s Discipline trait line has gone through several balance changes from the Beta Weekends to Live. In doing so, the second portion (the Burst Damage increase) has been decreased significantly from the intended version. 30 points in a trait line adding only a 3% damage increase to an ability on a 10-second (8.33s with grandmaster trait) is woefully underpowered and hardly worth the investment and it does not add anything to the warrior class or its play value.

Proposed Suggestion:
I propose that the Burst Damage +0.1% of Discipline be changed from an increase per point be changed to a % reduction in adrenaline strikes to achieve each tier level. For example, Warrior’s require 30 strikes of Adrenaline right now (10 per tier) to achieve full adrenaline. Simply have the the Discipline talent changed to give a 2% per point in Discipline (60% decrease at 30 points) to the amount of Warrior Strikes need to achieve each tier of adrenaline (this % is similar to Elementalist time reduction per attunement swap). So in the case of a full 30 point investment in Discipline, a 60% pool reduction, Warrior would require 19 strikes (30 base Adrenaline divided by 1.6 = 18.75 Adrenaline Strikes to achieve a full Adrenaline Bar).

Reason:
It means that Warrior’s gain another important method to gain Adrenaline (their base class mechanic) and coincides with the Discipline’s “Brawn” definition.

Pre-emptive Counter Argument on Balance:
The balance comes from the fact that all Warrior F1 talents are already on a 10 second (8.33s with talent) cooldown so this will only affect the building and execution of the adrenaline abilties in the beginning of combat. There will be a smaller build up window but the longer term combat scenarios will not see any major balance impact in PvE or PvP.

Thoughts?

I never had problems getting adrenaline,
and there are traits that makes you gain adrenaline.

Warriors don’t need to be fixed, they are good enough until all the other classes get brought up to their level (or nerfed into the ground due to pvp imbalances).

@Dragonmind – it’s not a problem getting Adrenaline with warriors but it’s another tool or means to get the class mechanic to function better. And it compliments all of those other tools. Can you agree that +0.1% burst damage per Discipline point investment has absolutely no game effect and is just overlooked? Would you consider this a valuable warrior spec alternative if available?

@Awesome – you are looking at a holistic class of warrior and not seeing the particular parts that are broken within the specific class mechanics. Prioritization of one class to be “buffed” or “nerfed” to that of a warrior’s perceived power level has nothing to do with this suggestion. As a player of 5 different classes, I do not see warriors anywhere near the PvP imbalance akin to say Guardian, Mesmer and especially, Thief. But again, this is all perception and everyone can’t see all aspects of the bigger ANet picture of balance in PvP.

yes 3% is a waste of space and it needs to be replaced i mean seriously 3% more damage! i don’t even need that damage because i use sword/shield and longbow which are condition based weapon so that 3% would be completely useless. I support any form of changing that 3% part of discipline to whatever else.

change it to 30% and now your talking.

Yes a change would be nice. Atm I never saw anyone in my teams / guilds use over 10 points in discipline (the 10 mostly being for 9% crit). However, I don’t think your change would actually change much. I personally would still never use the trait line if it was implemented.

The .1% instead of 1% seems to be a bug. I think it would be well balanced if they would just fix that.

The problem with Discipline is that it only buffs the Burst damage.
What about the rest?
Stun?
Bleed Damage?
Not all Burst is focused around damage.

Nurvus.2891:

The problem with Discipline is that it only buffs the Burst damage.
What about the rest?
Stun?
Bleed Damage?
Not all Burst is focused around damage.

That’s why I suggested changing the mechanic from +Damage to a Adrenaline strike reduction mechanic.

@EnemyCrusher – I don’t believe the 0.1%/per point is a bug as the +1% to damage per point was in Beta if I recall correctly and was changed around BWE3 to reduce Warrior burst damage.

As it stands right now, the 0.1%/per point is basically an easy way to balance warrior builds that focuses on Discipline (Brawn) versus those that do not but the true outcome is that the Discipline point investment is meaningless (except for the traits). This is unlike any other class in GW2 where their own class-defining trait line actually has a noticeable impact on the class mechanic.

I agree though, 0.1% damage increase per point and only on Burst ability raw damage is basically nothing.

Yeah… I don’t think any other classes even have something similar to a decimal of a point per investment. I’d rather see a 1% decrease in CD like the last tree of eles (attunement feature), thieves (steal feature) and engies (gadgets feature) than this… (not sure about other classes)

Feels like I’m getting less for my investment than anything else…

Artaz.3819:

That’s why I suggested changing the mechanic from +Damage to a Adrenaline strike reduction mechanic.

But that would require additional balancing. For example, what would happen to the active effect of Signet of Fury, which right now gives a full 30 strikes of Adrenaline? In comparison, what about Healing Surge, which gives 10? Would both of them give the full 30 now, resulting in Healing Surge being absolutely ridiculously overpowered and Signet of Fury being kinda useless in comparison? Or would you have them scaled down as well?

Also, we already have a trait that heals us based on adrenaline and a trait that gives our adrenaline based on damage. If you leave those alone, coupled with any skill that gives adrenaline, you end up with warriors turning into Burst-spamming machines of death. And that’s probably what happened with the Discipline line when the trait was +1%, as I can see Eviscerate and Kill Shot being absolutely ridiculous with a full +30% on top of what they already are.

Artaz.3819:

As it stands right now, the 0.1%/per point is basically an easy way to balance warrior builds that focuses on Discipline (Brawn) versus those that do not but the true outcome is that the Discipline point investment is meaningless (except for the traits). This is unlike any other class in GW2 where their own class-defining trait line actually has a noticeable impact on the class mechanic.

Not really. The Discipline trait line does still get the Critical Damage boost. And for some, that’s a pretty big deal.

Let me show you a damage mechanic.

Damage done = (weapon damage) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)

When the skill specific coefficient is increased by 3%, you get a formula like this:

Damage done = (weapon damage) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient * 1.03) / (targets armor)

The difference: 21 damage.
Eviscerate, without bonus, hitting my ranger, 717 damage.
Eviscerate, with bonus, hitting my ranger, 738 damage.

Now, that doesn’t seem like much, but you also get 30% critical damage from the same trait line. So, with your mighty 100% crit chance that is so easy to reach figured in:

Eviscerate, critical, without bonus, hitting my ranger, 1075.5 damage.
Eviscerate, critical, with bonus, hitting my ranger, 1328.4 damage.

So, 252.9 damage from the base stat increase from a trait line.

Ranger class mechanic of Pet Attribute Bonus, comes with healing power.

Without pet attribute bonus, wolf bites my friend for 111 damage.
With pet attribute bonus, wolf bites my friend for 130 damage.

So, you get a 252.9 damage bonus every ten seconds, along with a bonus to the critical damage of all your other skills. I get a 29 damage bonus on attacks made by my wolf. In ten seconds, on his best behaved attacking of a stationary target with no skills, that would make 11kittenage in 10 seconds. (Don’t know why the language filter is putting a kitten in front of 1160)

If you auto attack with your axe, and crit at least 40% of the time (A low number, for anyone aiming for damage), you’ll get 1125.4 extra damage out of the trait line. Throw in the 252.9 from your burst, and you get 1378.3 damage extra damage from those trait stats in 10 seconds.

TL:DR, or hate math...
Your trait line gives you at least 218 more damage, from just stats, than a Rangers.

@Artaz – Yes, we can agree that the current burst damage buff per trait point is low,
but what I might not have said as clearly as possible, I wouldn’t want any adrenaline
function like the one you described.

Fixing it to 1.0% might work.

If you look at the above stated mathematical evidence, you’ll see that increasing it to 1% per point would dramatically increase the bonus damage the trait line provides, when it is already on par with at least one other profession.

I would gladly put up the bonus to damage granted by every profession’s bottom trait slot (the one that betters profession mechanics). You’ll find that it is in fact, very much on par with every one of them.

If traits only raised the one stat, instead of two, you’d have a valid point, but because they raise two, and the two in question on a warrior are multiplied by each-other in the damage mechanic, you’d have a very big problem if you were to increase them.

Right now, 1.03 on burst, 1.8 on crit. If you raised the multipliers to 1.3 on burst, 1.8 on crit, well, see for yourself.

1.03 * 1.8 = 1.854
1.3 * 1.8 = 2.34

Those numbers are only part of a formula. Multiply in 1048 for axe damage, and you get this:

1.854 * 1048 = 1942.992
2.34 * 1048 = 2452.32

As you factor in more and more of the numbers that make up the damage formula, you’ll see the gap between those grow larger and larger. Already, with just weapon damage and the two modified stats, the current version on par with other professions is 509.3 below your proposed fix.

TL:DR, or hate math:
It’s on par with other trait lines right now, and would get out of hand if raised, because the two stats it grants are multiplied by each-other in damage mechanics.

Nels the Cornwhisperer.8025:

If you look at the above stated mathematical proof, you’ll see that increasing it to 1% per point would dramatically increase the bonus damage the trait line provides, when it is already on par with at least one other profession.

No offense, but I cannot take what you wrote above as a “mathematical proof”. You included a good formula, but then you asspulled a bunch of empirical numbers. That’s not a proof, that’s a test.

Right now, 1.03 on burst, 1.8 on crit. If you raised the multipliers to 1.3 on burst, 1.8 on crit, well, see for yourself.

1.03 * 1.8 = 1.854
1.3 * 1.8 = 2.34

Those numbers are only part of a formula. Multiply in 1048 for axe damage, and you get this:

1.854 * 1048 = 1942.992
2.34 * 1048 = 2452.32

As you factor in more and more of the numbers that make up the damage formula, you’ll see the gap between those grow larger and larger. Already, with just weapon damage and the two modified stats, the current version on par with other professions is 509.3 below your proposed fix.

No, no, no.

You’re ignoring the fact that the relative change, which is 1.3/1.03 = ~1.26 = +26% stays constant across the board. And that, my friend, is the important bit. That by increasing the Critical Damage% from Discipline from 0.1% to 1% effectively makes skills like Killshot and Eviscerate deal 26% more damage is freaking massive. It’s so massive it’s not even funny as a troll.

But similarly, the suggested change of reducing adrenaline costs for Burst Skills is bad, as that brings a host of issues with all skills and traits relating to Adrenaline. And the Discipline line already has Adrenal Reserves to reduce the costs. Just for a “short” list: Healing Surge, Signet of Fury, Quick Bursts, Adrenal Reserves, Thrill of the Kill, Inspiring Shouts, Sharpened Axes, Embrace the Pain, Adrenal Health, Furious, Berserker’s Power, Building Momentum, Short Temper., Heightened Focus. Most of those are traits that are placed all over the trait lines and most of them would need to be completely scrapped if you suddenly gave people the ability to gain adrenaline at triple the speed.

And just for hilarity: Eviscerate + Quick Bursts + Adrenal Reserves + Heightened Focus + Critical Burst + Berserker’s Power. Think about it.

Olba.5376:

Nels the Cornwhisperer.8025:

If you look at the above stated mathematical proof, you’ll see that increasing it to 1% per point would dramatically increase the bonus damage the trait line provides, when it is already on par with at least one other profession.

No offense, but I cannot take what you wrote above as a "mathematical proof". You included a good formula, but then you asspulled a bunch of empirical numbers. That’s not a proof, that’s a test.

Right now, 1.03 on burst, 1.8 on crit. If you raised the multipliers to 1.3 on burst, 1.8 on crit, well, see for yourself.

1.03 * 1.8 = 1.854
1.3 * 1.8 = 2.34

Those numbers are only part of a formula. Multiply in 1048 for axe damage, and you get this:

1.854 * 1048 = 1942.992
2.34 * 1048 = 2452.32

As you factor in more and more of the numbers that make up the damage formula, you’ll see the gap between those grow larger and larger. Already, with just weapon damage and the two modified stats, the current version on par with other professions is 509.3 below your proposed fix.

No, no, no.

You’re ignoring the fact that the relative change, which is 1.3/1.03 = ~1.26 = +26% stays constant across the board. And that, my friend, is the important bit. That by increasing the Critical Damage% from Discipline from 0.1% to 1% effectively makes skills like Killshot and Eviscerate deal 26% more damage is freaking massive. It’s so massive it’s not even funny as a troll.

But similarly, the suggested change of reducing adrenaline costs for Burst Skills is bad, as that brings a host of issues with all skills and traits relating to Adrenaline. And the Discipline line already has Adrenal Reserves to reduce the costs. Just for a "short" list: Healing Surge, Signet of Fury, Quick Bursts, Adrenal Reserves, Thrill of the Kill, Inspiring Shouts, Sharpened Axes, Embrace the Pain, Adrenal Health, Furious, Berserker’s Power, Building Momentum, Short Temper., Heightened Focus. Most of those are traits that are placed all over the trait lines and most of them would need to be completely scrapped if you suddenly gave people the ability to gain adrenaline at triple the speed.

And just for hilarity: Eviscerate + Quick Bursts + Adrenal Reserves + Heightened Focus + Critical Burst + Berserker’s Power. Think about it.

The "empirical" numbers, were the power on a generic, PvP warrior, with an axe, at it’s maximum damage, and the skill specific coefficient damage from data. You can test it yourself, if you want to pop in to the game, and go to the Heart of the Mists.

I tested them against a standard 20/15/20/0/15 roamer ranger with Ranger’s Insignia and force sigils, and against the three armored golems. I only worked with the axe, because the post would simply get too long if I was to do the numbers on every burst skill.

The second statement, where we look at the difference between damage if burst damage was raised to 1% instead of the current .1%, in a crit, you’d multiply the string of numbers together as follows:

Damage = weapon damage * power * skill coefficient * 1.03 * 1.8
Where 1.03 is the current multiplier burst skills get, and 1.8 is the base 1.5 critical damage, plus the 0.3 it gets from the trait line.
Damage = weapon damage * power * skill coefficient * 1.3 * 1.8
Where 1.3 is the proposed change of burst damage to 1% per trait point, and 1.8 is the base 1.5 critical damage, plus the 0.3 it gets from the trait line.

Nels the Cornwhisperer.8025:

The “empirical” numbers, were the power on a generic, PvP warrior, with an axe, at it’s maximum damage, and the skill specific coefficient damage from data. You can test it yourself, if you want to pop in to the game, and go to the Heart of the Mists.

I tested them against a standard 20/15/20/0/15 roamer ranger with Ranger’s Insignia and force sigils, and against the three armored golems. I only worked with the axe, because the post would simply get too long if I was to do the numbers on every burst skill.

And that’s exactly why I said it’s not a proof, but a test that you did. Heck, you even used the word “tested”. A proof is always generalized, never a particular case. And the only thing that is going to be general when comparing 3% Burst Damage to 30% is that the increase will be 1.3/1.03= ~1.26 = +26%.

Of course, testing isn’t necessarily a bad idea. Nor is showing some actual figures, sometimes it makes the point more obvious. For example, saying that it results in 26% more damage might not have the same effect as saying that it turns a 10,000 crit into 12,600.

But all of this just comes from my personal experience dealing with in-game mathematics. It’s been a sort of a hobby of mine for the past six years or so. That and studying math in university, which I’ve done for three years now.

Heh, poor choice in words there, my fault.

Proof: An effort, process, or operation designed to establish or discover a fact or truth; an act of testing; a test; a trial.

Should have used "above mathematical evidence" to avoid confusion. Will edit.

Artaz.3819:

Nurvus.2891:

The problem with Discipline is that it only buffs the Burst damage.
What about the rest?
Stun?
Bleed Damage?
Not all Burst is focused around damage.

That’s why I suggested changing the mechanic from +Damage to a Adrenaline strike reduction mechanic.

@EnemyCrusher – I don’t believe the 0.1%/per point is a bug as the +1% to damage per point was in Beta if I recall correctly and was changed around BWE3 to reduce Warrior burst damage.

As it stands right now, the 0.1%/per point is basically an easy way to balance warrior builds that focuses on Discipline (Brawn) versus those that do not but the true outcome is that the Discipline point investment is meaningless (except for the traits). This is unlike any other class in GW2 where their own class-defining trait line actually has a noticeable impact on the class mechanic.

I agree though, 0.1% damage increase per point and only on Burst ability raw damage is basically nothing.

If it increases the Adrenaline Generation, it should also increase the Recharge Rate, because having the Burst available more often, only to find it still in cooldown, makes no sense.

Awesome.6120:

Warriors don’t need to be fixed, they are good enough until all the other classes get brought up to their level (or nerfed into the ground due to pvp imbalances).

If warriors are perfectly balance why do I basically only see thiefs, eles and guardians in sPvP?

Regarding math, I get it

I don’t agree that changing Brawn to be 1% per point in Discipline is the right answer to balancing because of the +critical damage already within the line (even though Burst F1 skills do not automatically critical as suggested). My idea has absolutely nothing to do with damage increase (I suggest we work on an alternative suggestion that has Warrior gameplay spec alternatives). I should also point out that every class has Prowess (1% per point invested in a talent line) so balancing/mathematical statements to the specific Discipline line when compared to the entirety of this option for all classes that has access to Prowess elsewhere is at best, skewed.

@Olba – Regarding specific Adrenaline gaining talents/skills, I do not see an imbalance here on the surface (all Adrenaline-related talents and utilities and Burst skills have more value BUT you can’t have them all with 30-points in Discipline). Signet of Fury is still very useful for Discipline changed this way and could be reworded to gives full Bars of Adrenaline Strikes (a wording fix but really not necessarily because excess Adrenaline Strikes are dropped). Other similar mechanics (like Adrenaline Health) and achieving tier bonus mechanics quicker or Furious (Grandmaster trait in Arms line) also inherently become slightly more powerful but again, you can’t take all Adrenaline-related talents if you take those talent points in Discipline.

That being said, maybe +1% reduction per Brawn point (instead of +2% reduction per Discipline point) might be a happy balanced medium because of the other options to increase Adrenaline Strikes and the related secondary talent benefits.

@GADefence – it’s a troll argument at best. There is no justification for the other posters statement as every warrior knows in sPvP, Discipline is not one of those talent lines you are heavily invested into anyways.

@Nurvus

Yes it does. It means that you can use the Burst ability more quickly in the beginning of the fight (use that combo field from Longbow, use the stun from Hammer, etc.) It’s about balancing the usage of the ability (keeping the damage/CC relatively stable over time) to the speed of using the Burst ability at full effectiveness.