Guild Wars 2

Can someone explain to me why Anet has decided to not split PVE/PVP from each other like they did in GW1. Every sane person will tell u that u cant balance both modes with the same nerfs/buffs. Since every nerf in PVP might have grave consequences in PVE and basically completely break the skill.
Now we have WvWvW, but Anet said explicitly that WvWvW was meant to be a fun mode, u just cant balance it.

PS: Anet did it in GW1, It did is with all 10 professions with a total of 1300 skills. And they did an excellent job of splitting PVP and PVE. Making PVP very competitive and PVE quiet fun to play.

You have a good point.
But Im sure they have lots of graphs and a scientific calculator
Plus I doubt they make decisions without first checking them

I think this is the core issue :/

In the dimm dark days of Guild Wars the skills were not split, but the community was – everytime there was a nerf one side or the other (pve/pvp) would cry foul and much discontent was present. Then during one meeting of devs a often silent voice spoke up and said let us split pve and pvp skills and bring happiness and harmony to our community, and with that the first God walking amongst mere mortals was born, and all were stunned at the quickness of though and indepth understanding that this now god like figure had demonstrated.
Now 250 years later our gods have abandoned us along with it seems our god like ideas person.
Someone stand up, be proud and in your next meeting claim – For the good of the community I feel we need to all draw from the past look to the future and work in the present and as such we need to implement split pve / pvp skills. I am sure all will look upon your in awe and reverence, your name will echo down the hallways at Anet HQ and the community will flood the forums shouting their praises to you.
On a side note as all the other gods have fled you will also have the privillage of being the only god in the world, so the world will be yours, and really who does not want that?

I could link multiple threads from the EQ2 Forums griping about this very subject, except ANet would probably delete it since its info from another game.

That said…this issue comes up in almost every game that supports the 2 playstyles. I think it stems from the purely practical ( or even financial) of having to maintain 2 different rulebooks…or even 3 cause if they did it for pvp, they’d have to do it for WvW.

I suspect that you’re just gonna have to deal with it.

Would only need pvp and pve skills, WvW would default to pvp skills as that is what 90% of it is, and if you are in WvW to cap points or harvest or do other pve stuff then you do not need your skills anyway as you are just running and gathering and popping points.
The guys did a fantastic job of seperating and balancing the skills in GW1 I have faith in them that they could rise to the occasion and do it again for GW2.

It comes up in every game that supports the 2 playstyles because its a fundamental issue, and ignoring it isn’t going to make anyone happy. PvE balances alone tend to be pretty dramatic changes (mob AI vs. AoE, sudden limits on minion counts, Soul Reaping changes, etc). To add “oh hey this skill was soooo good in pvp so we changed it. Yeah, uh, you shouldn’t bother with it in PvE anymore” just leads to resentment and frustration. There are games out there where PvP in an MMO (rightfully) takes a backseat and doesn’t dictate the entire PvE experience. ANet said the split would happen in GW2, they explicitly said it. I cannot understand what made them think “oh, let’s forget about the split and do it the bad way like we did at the beginning of GW1”.

It is unfortunate. For example the nerf to guardian greatsword wasn’t cuz mobs were complaining about retaliation, but spvpers. And retaliation probably is too much for spvp. But in pve it was a big portion of guardian dps with that weapon, which is now much (basically 50%) less effective.

I think more fundamentally, ANet makes poor decisions about adjustments. For example, people complained a lot that when they meant to be grabbing loot, they’d end up stuck reviving a ranger’s pet. What we really need is to be able to separate “Loot” from everything else that the F key does. Rather than fix a poor design, they piled on more bad design by making ranger pets unrevivable. Even that wouldn’t be as big a problem except they’ve added in code to keep you in combat, sometimes stuck in combat til you log out and back in, I guess to prevent some kind of exploit.

Other stuff – like we players suffering lots of problems because of their inability to secure their game against bots, so we get decreased loot to punish them (which just drives up the number of bots and the temptation to buy from their owners).

Mesmers continue to be extremely strong in pvp, and I wager we won’t see winning tournament teams without a mesmer. So they nerfed mesmers a good bit. But, the mesmer post nerf is a pita to level in pve, where they were never all that powerful to begin with.

So I agree there’s a problem tryin to balance pve and pvp. We already don’t share any of the same gear. Why not restrict the modifications to skills as well?

What I find amusing is that an awful lot of players never feel like their PvE capabilities ever warrant a nerf, because they should ‘feel powerful’.

In my humble opinion PvP is the only thing that keeps classes relatively even in PvE (not that they are, but it certainly helps). On top of that complaining about nerfs in PvE has always confused me, especially as for many players on these forums the next most popular topic appears to be a lack of depth and difficulty with PvE content at higher levels.

As anyone who played a Warden in LotRO knows, one of the finest ever MMO class designs was completely destroyed by over zealous buffing so baddies could perform well in PvE. If that game had a more involved PvP side then there is no way that level of god mode that they now have would’ve happened.

I say embrace the benefits of PvE vs. PvP rather than simply assuming it’s a bad thing.

Splitting of skills does its job fairly well, indeed.
However, it also ruins it for some players – myself included.
I like the game to feel like a whole, not two different games.
What’s the next step, Resilience and PvP Power?

I have provided a viable alternative to splitting skills in this thread:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Balancing-PvP-vs-PvE-vs-Fun/first#post418755

I agree, split PvP and PvE.

Nurvus.2891:

Splitting of skills does its job fairly well, indeed.
However, it also ruins it for some players – myself included.
I like the game to feel like a whole, not two different games.
What’s the next step, Resilience and PvP Power?

I have provided a viable alternative to splitting skills in this thread:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Balancing-PvP-vs-PvE-vs-Fun/first#post418755

Anet did it in GW1, It did is with all 10 professions with a total of 1300 skills. And they did an excellent job of splitting PVP and PVE. Making PVP very competitive and PVE quiet fun to play. And now they cant do it with a limited amount of skills and classes? And no u cant balance PVP and PVE, not when Anet is aiming to get GW2 in e-sport. What is going to hapkitten balance PVP and then leave PVE with the consequences

Did “happen” and “is” just get censored into hapkitten? xD

Look, I just provided a link to my thread as I will not invade yours with my ideas.
I am just saying that while splitting skills is a viable and working sollution, it is neither the easiest nor the best.

Mine isn’t necessarily the best, but brings less issues and also deals with another issue – the current state of PvE versus what ANet promised PvE would be.

There is no need to split them. The mechanics are robust enough that you can make changed with minimal impact on the other side of the house.

The core issue is that people are afraid of change. They get set with the mentlity that they MUST use XYZ skill in PVE ( or PVP ) and they can’t use anything else. And when changes happe they cry that its the end of the world rather then try/use something different.

I’m on the fence about this. I don’t PvP, but if I did, I think it would be nice to not have different skills than in PvE. And keeping the skills the same probably makes it more appealing for new PvP’ers to just jump right in.

However, it seems obvious to me that powerful in PvP =/= powerful in PvE. I think Mesmers are a great example of this. I hear they are one of the best PvP classes, but compared to my other characters (except my Ele) my Mesmer seems kind of lackluster in PvE. Not horrid, but certainly not “nerf worthy” IMHO. From the PvE perspective it is mystifying to think that my Mesmer would get a nerf before, say, my Warrior or Necromancer. Yet in PvP, it probably makes sense.

Terrible game design. Creates confusion and discontent.

I’m on the fence about this. I don’t PvP, but if I did, I think it would be nice to not have different skills than in PvE. And keeping the skills the same probably makes it more appealing for new PvP’ers to just jump right in.
However, it seems obvious to me that powerful in PvP =/= powerful in PvE. I think Mesmers are a great example of this. I hear they are one of the best PvP classes, but compared to my other characters (except my Ele) my Mesmer seems kind of lackluster in PvE. Not horrid, but certainly not “nerf worthy” IMHO. From the PvE perspective it is mystifying to think that my Mesmer would get a nerf before, say, my Warrior or Necromancer. Yet in PvP, it probably makes sense.

When i say split PVP and PVE, skills will stay the same. Just some number tweaks like cool down and dmg. Plus it aint that hard to remember that u are in PVP and your skills have changed. Not to mention that there will be an annotation ofc telling u that this is the PVP version of the skill( same as in GW1).

it should be standard practice in an mmo or any online game that mixes pve and pvp.

why it’s not is beyond me.

This thread again?

I play both aspects (pve/pvp) never really had a problem in many years of MMOing with games that weren’t “split”.

As a matter o’ fact, i find it more appealing if they aren’t

/shrug

Anything overpowered in PvP is overpowered in PvE. This conversation is just another version of “let me keep my IWIN button”.

-Jeff

Balance classes for PVP.

Balance PVE content to fit the classes.

Its not perfect so just deal with it.

Yup. They initially said that pve and pvp would be split like in GW1. Then they suddenly changed their minds. The moment they did I knew it was a huge mistake. You have to split the two. Balance is always a difficult thing to achieve, but keeping those two things tied together pretty much destroys any chance at balance. One part of the game will always be ruined in favor of another. There’s just no getting around it. That’s why it’s such a poor system.

jaif.3518:

Anything overpowered in PvP is overpowered in PvE. This conversation is just another version of “let me keep my IWIN button”.

-Jeff

It’s not even funny how wrong this statement is.

jaif.3518:

Anything overpowered in PvP is overpowered in PvE. This conversation is just another version of “let me keep my IWIN button”.

-Jeff

That is so far from the truth. Confusion, which is very powerful in PVP, is a rather weak source of damage in PVE (unless you can stack it with the bugged Mesmer trident) because monsters attack much slower than players. Feedback, another Mesmer skill, is quite strong in WvW when you can slap it on a party of ranged players and watch them kill themselbes, but is not nearly as powerful in PVE, except as a source of temporary damaged mitigation, because you do not encounter that many throngs of enemies that rapidly spam ranged attacks.

TheKillerAngel.3596:

jaif.3518:

Anything overpowered in PvP is overpowered in PvE. This conversation is just another version of “let me keep my IWIN button”.

-Jeff

That is so far from the truth. Confusion, which is very powerful in PVP, is a rather weak source of damage in PVE (unless you can stack it with the bugged Mesmer trident) because monsters attack much slower than players. Feedback, another Mesmer skill, is quite strong in WvW when you can slap it on a party of ranged players and watch them kill themselbes, but is not nearly as powerful in PVE, except as a source of temporary damaged mitigation, because you do not encounter that many throngs of enemies that rapidly spam ranged attacks.

Neither confusion nor feedback are overpowered in PvP.

But as a gesture, I concede that one day you’ll find an exception or two. But splitting the skills based on exceptions is silly. Name the skill that was nerfed recently that wasn’t overpowered in PvE.

-Jeff

Just make 2 stats on a abilty / weapons

for example the “Hammer Swing”

200 damage vs players
500 vs monsters

Problem solved

Before the split in GW1, we rallied for it on the official wiki and fansite forums.
There is more than enough players who see the benefits of split. However, I think the main barrier is that it’s a daunting task for the studio and it’s something that requires more work to implement and maintain.

In the end it has to be shown how it can be a positive investment of time and resources. Be optimistic that it’s implementation can actually reduce headaches and cumbersome work for devs in the future. And probably even afford more freedoms than a non-split.

Anet, if you reading this. I also seriously hope skill balancing and the talented people involved are not shackled to a bureaucracy in their duties. The game is using test servers, so I think the process can afford to be liberal. Have fun with your work!

This is mostly approved by players who love PvP and don’t care about PvE, or vice-versa.
It forces everyone to play 2 different games in each character.

It works for its intended purpose – balance.
It doesn’t work for other reasons – coherence, immersion, unified gameplay.

If it was the only sollution, I’d be in favor.
Fortunately, there are much better options.

The only problem is that NPCs follow different rules from players.
They don’t have to behave like humans – they can’t.
All they need is to be given the same tools humans have:
- heals and condition removal
- defensive skills
- control skills, boon removal
- confusion, retaliation, reflection
- able to use skills while moving
- able to backpeddal and strafe
- kiting
- temporary immunity skills (stability, etc) instead of permanent immunities.

Do that, and the skills will be balanced for everyone.

It’s more than that Nurvus. In PvE there is also a difference between the number of conflicts the player is involved in at one time, and the length of each conflict, plus the breathing room afforded between conflicts.

I totally understand where you are coming from and I agree those suggestions would be a benefit to them game, but I just wanted to point out how PvE will continue to be very different from PvP regardless of how hard one tries to homogenize the experience.

Homogenize is the wrong word.

PvP and PvE will always feel different.
However, that’s not what creates problems in balance between skills.
The problem is in how the creatures you fight against in PvE are defeated in such a fundamentally different way.

As I described above, there are many things players do that NPCs don’t, and vice-versa.
If the NPCs are changed to obey the same rules and fight with the same tools, even if not as well as players, the skills will be automatically balanced between PvP and PvE.

Compare a boss to a player that is being healed by a bunch of enemies.
Compare the boss’ insta-down attacks to a group of players coordinating an attack against you.

You can create several parallels between PvP and PvE, as long as both game modes make use of the same kind of tools in combat.

If creatures don’t move while attacking, it’s already a huge impact.
If creatures don’t remove boons from you, it’s another huge impact.
If creatures don’t usually have boons worth removing, it’s another huge impact.

It’s alot of tiny things that accumulate into something that greatly impacts the balance of skills between PvP and PvE.

Most skills are already fairly balanced between the two game modes.
If some of what I suggested is done, not only does PvE become more dynamic as ANet promised it would be, but balancing skills will become insanely easier.

good discussion.

only 7 years to go..

http://www.guildwars.com/gameplay/developer_updates/

;) im just kitten

no. dun split.

everything is good.

if it is not broken then dun fix it.

I’d say a split sounds like a great decision however pve side content feels utterly hollow.

Pardon me if I’m completely kitten but… isn’t PvP already split from PvE? Last I checked the Heart of the Mists had a totally separate progression and specialization system, 100% unlocked skills, maxed equipment, etc. and allowed players to compete solely on their PvP skill. Leaving Heart of the Mists switched you back to PvE progression, and neither affected the other.

What more do you want?

I think this is a good suggestion. Not sure on ANET’s stance with this but I could see it being a viable solution as the game ages.

Cakoluchiam, the split we are talking about is something done in GW1.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Illusionary_Weaponry
That’s the PvE version.
Here’s the PvP version.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Illusionary_Weaponry_%28PvP%29

If you notice, they are different. Keeps the skill both attractive and balanced for each mode of game they are used in. The PvE version would be too good in PvP, and the PvP version too squishy in PvE.

Prime example of this is take 5 warriors with greatsword into dungeon kill everything with hundred blade

Rafe Mathews.2308:

I’d say a split sounds like a great decision however pve side content feels utterly hollow.

This is exactly why I propose a different approach here:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Balancing-PvP-vs-PvE-vs-Fun/first#post425932