How to make legendary weapon practical but not OP
I don’t see any valid argument which opposes this suggestion. I mean seriously, the guys with: “Anet said so and thus nothing will change.” That argument is just embarassing. You’re not even able to bring any solid arguments and you still are against this idea. Again, how is this going to be a gear grinding fest ? HOW ? It’s still an option whether you want the legendary or not. It doesn’t bring any better stats. The only thing in addition would be CONVENIENCE. Look it up in a dictionary before replying to this. I don’t think you know the meaning of convenience if you’re against it !
Thus being said, OP please open/move this thread into suggestions area, we might be more succesful there. I would open one by myself but it’s your idea and yeah it’s a kittening good one, so go for it !
I don’t see any valid argument which opposes this suggestion. I mean seriously, the guys with: “Anet said so and thus nothing will change.” That argument is just embarassing. You’re not even able to bring any solid arguments and you still are against this idea. Again, how is this going to be a gear grinding fest ? HOW ? It’s still an option whether you want the legendary or not. It doesn’t bring any better stats. The only thing in addition would be CONVENIENCE. Look it up in a dictionary before replying to this. I don’t think you know the meaning of convenience if you’re against it !
Thus being said, OP please open/move this thread into suggestions area, we might be more succesful there. I would open one by myself but it’s your idea and yeah it’s a kittening good one, so go for it !
Ok, let me enumerate a few from the top of my head.
1.) Puts up an unfair advantage versus normal people who have to carry around many types of armor and weapons for different builds. Where they have to grind a bit more to get a particular stat, you don’t. (ofc you can always argue that the legendary is a massive grind in itself, however the primary objective there is the skin anyway). Why is this bad? Because having a legendary is merely a testament to your hard work (and luck), not a title for privileges or rights, and in this case, convenience. The only right you get is the medal in the opening screen and bragging rights. So while it doesn’t add an advantage per se in terms of combat, it does add an advantage in gameplay.
2.) There’s a reason anet put alot of transmuation and fine transmutation stones out there. In some way, those things are part of gw2’s gold/material sink. And while it doesn’t necessarily mean it will affect the market in a huge way, it still goes contrary to the notion of gw2’s way of stabilizing the economy. Else, they would’ve made it like DCUO’s model where you “unlock” skins and can swap among them on the fly. (I actually wished that here, could put for more variety is costumes).
3.) Legendaries, from the get-go, were clearly all about the skin. It shouldn’t have any combat/gameplay related effect. Putting this suggestion into practice violates that notion. Also, some stats are arguably harder to acquire than the others, e.g. Knight versus Soldier. Knight is really easy to get, soldier armor/weapon are usually dungeon gear or karma gear. Giving the ability of a legendary to automatically change into those item combinations is like gw2 saying “oh you don’t need to work as much as the other players if you want a soldier stat combination”. The fact is, as I’ve said before, having a legendary is merely a testament, you’re not winning a senate seat here or anything. It is akin to breezing through a bit of grind (karma or dungeon grind), and this can be seen as having unfair gameplay advantage.
Are you all jelly at people going for Legendary?
This is awesome idea and since you could change stats only out of combat it would make it still equal, but a bit more practical.
I hate idea of getting healing/toughness/vitality and being forced to transmute Legendary.
That would really make those weapons more legendary without tempering with stats/skills of the weapon.
And if this is to much I would at least like to have stats option when creating weapons.
How to make legendary weapon practical but not OP
in Suggestions
Posted by: Alexander Dragonfang.1759
Even if is a good idea, it is terrible for the “purpose” of the “legendaries”.
And it will be a good addition if something arround those “legendaries” were in fact “legendary” like ending a really insane dificult dungeon full of bosses, clocktower level jumping puzzles and other kind of challenge with a near 0 chance to get the weapon making it a real testament of you having actually fought against the odds to get the weapon… Not just a shiny proof of you having speend +500 hours in Orr farming and the corresponding dungeon.
they need to add a unique elite skill for each legendary weapon, bam problem solved
Are you all jelly at people going for Legendary?
This is awesome idea and since you could change stats only out of combat it would make it still equal, but a bit more practical.
I hate idea of getting healing/toughness/vitality and being forced to transmute Legendary.
That would really make those weapons more legendary without tempering with stats/skills of the weapon.
And if this is to much I would at least like to have stats option when creating weapons.
a better fix would be to retain the purple name, retain the “legendary” title of the weapon, and just affix the stat/sigil required.
Legendaries have always been about the skin. That’s why you get them. I’m sure by the time you have enough money or enough time to make your own legendary, that you have enough leftover money to buy fine transmute stones (through gems) and 1g weapons to transmute the skin onto whatever stats you want on the fly.
Great idea!
Awesome idea!
Interchangeable exotic weapon stats for legendary!
ANet hire this guy!!!!
Like already suggested in this forum, I would just add a “special skill” to be used in the elite slot and to make the so called “Legendary” weapon really worth of its name.
Its either that or decrease the difficulty of getting Legendary, because right now is just not worth it.
Great idea, as I say: “The best game designers are the persons who play them…:)”
Thank you and best regards,
Red
Can you help me post there please? my English is not that good.
And I’m glad to see so many people support my idea. Legendary weapon is part of end game content, but the three months effort only worth a skin? It should be more attractive to let more people to do it.
Someone said they won’t change legendary weapon because Anet has already said legendary weapon was just a skin. But why there is a suggestion sub-forum? As they know this game is not perfect, they still need players’ suggestions to improve it.
Blake,
I will send you a PM with the text to ilustrate your idea and you can post it on the Suggestion forum.
Give me 5 minutes.
Best regards,
Red
Can someone tell me what makes a legendary, legendary? As opposed to being an exotic?
The skins aren’t always spectacular, the particle effects are outright lacking on some of them, and the requirements are similar in nature (and in fact, actually more-limited to crafting-only) to other Exotics.
They seem to me like exotics that are just harder to obtain than other exotics, with no other difference. So why aren’t they exotics?
I don’t see any valid argument which opposes this suggestion. I mean seriously, the guys with: “Anet said so and thus nothing will change.” That argument is just embarassing. You’re not even able to bring any solid arguments and you still are against this idea. Again, how is this going to be a gear grinding fest ? HOW ? It’s still an option whether you want the legendary or not. It doesn’t bring any better stats. The only thing in addition would be CONVENIENCE. Look it up in a dictionary before replying to this. I don’t think you know the meaning of convenience if you’re against it !
Thus being said, OP please open/move this thread into suggestions area, we might be more succesful there. I would open one by myself but it’s your idea and yeah it’s a kittening good one, so go for it !Ok, let me enumerate a few from the top of my head.
1.) Puts up an unfair advantage versus normal people who have to carry around many types of armor and weapons for different builds. Where they have to grind a bit more to get a particular stat, you don’t. (ofc you can always argue that the legendary is a massive grind in itself, however the primary objective there is the skin anyway). Why is this bad? Because having a legendary is merely a testament to your hard work (and luck), not a title for privileges or rights, and in this case, convenience. The only right you get is the medal in the opening screen and bragging rights. So while it doesn’t add an advantage per se in terms of combat, it does add an advantage in gameplay.
— Cut for space —-
By the Logic on point 1 then to me anyone with a bag larger than 15 slots (which I have) has an unfair advantage because they can carry more gear than me. The reason some people have larger bags is because they grinded more than me, same concept can be applied to this suggestion.
Good idea.
(I am months away from getting a legendary)
I really hope ANET uses this idea…Then I would go for a legendary..:)
1.) Puts up an unfair advantage versus normal people who have to carry around many types of armor and weapons for different builds.
And what of those who don’t have Exotics yet? You can’t even get exotics till late game and the first explore dungeon is 35, so a level 35 has no equal gear to that of a 80 in full exotic. Not to mention traits. Sorry I don’t buy Unfair advantage with the way he described. Furthermore, how about those who don’t have an exotic set of EVERY weapon type? Aren’t they already at a disadvantage?
How about turning all legendary weapons into exotic weapons. Then you upgrade component will decide what weapon is better.
This is better because grinding for upgrade component will give you more items you can actually use.
(edited by Onshidesigns.1069)
1.) Puts up an unfair advantage versus normal people who have to carry around many types of armor and weapons for different builds.
And what of those who don’t have Exotics yet? You can’t even get exotics till late game and the first explore dungeon is 35, so a level 35 has no equal gear to that of a 80 in full exotic. Not to mention traits. Sorry I don’t buy Unfair advantage with the way he described. Furthermore, how about those who don’t have an exotic set of EVERY weapon type? Aren’t they already at a disadvantage?
level 80 is not that difficult to reach, and you can farm a full set of dungeon gear in a week or less. you are a complainer, sir.
@Blake sorry for the late reply, as I can see the thread was already moved by a moderator.
@penatbater
1) Seriously ?
2) Just think outside of the box. While basic and fine transmutation stones are a source of ANet’s income adding this feature to the legendary might be a better source of income. Let’s be honest, the more players come back to play the game the more money they would make and trust me, the income would be a lot bigger. For example: in your quest of getting the legendary you will spent lots of gold ( gems or time ) and you will still buy transmutation stones to transmute your exotics until you get the legendary. Oh and about 1), more types of armor = more slots = more bags = gems = money for ANet, also see the bank upgrades. This suggestion won’t sink the market for sure, if anything the income will be bigger.
3) “oh you don’t need to work as much as the other players…” – oh but you already worked more than many players out there, why should we give you convenience ? (keep in mind this is not a stats breaking reward). While I agree having a legendary is an achievement who cannot and will not be achieved by all, after getting the legendary what will you do ? It feels like the legendary needs a little more to it. This suggestion does not break any philosophy that ANet has. And, by the way, it does not violate the notion, it’s like saying no, you should totally leave the invisible players problem in WvW because it was thought that way.
Definitely against making Legendaries anything more than a skin, that’s all they were ever supposed to be.
Opinions, opinions, opinions everywhere. I make it a rule not to trust anyone who says “trust me” over the internet.
I find it ridiculous that the proposition is completely ignoring the main problem with such a suggestion and pretending that there is no valid argument behind it. Well, I guess I’ll have to do it too.
Nobody has come up with a real argument against such a suggestion granting players with legendaries an advantage or “convenience” as proponents like to emphasize. So why would I go for exotics when I can have a legendary which is seven exotics in one?
I agree that Legendaries need something more unique about them than just the skin.
I was thinking:
#A unique Sigil proc that can’t be found anywhere else. They don’t have to be better or worse than normal Sigil procs, just something that suits the weapon.
#Allow players to customize the stat distribution on the particular weapon. For example you could chose which primary and which two secondary stats your Legendary has by changing the order in which you place the Gifts into the Mystic Forge.
Agreed, a unique sigil that suits the weapon would be a great compromise.
No , this is about looks and should stay about looks.
Legendary weapons should have exact same stats any exo weapons, that is the point of a game only for looks.
This is a slightly different suggestion that may fulfill your needs…
1. What if you could carry a item that would allow you to switch the stat set on your item? It would be consumable like a transmutation and also require a item that you want the stats from, allowing you to save multiple sets. One stone would fuel a addition, and another would be required to fuel the change everytime you wanted to change it. These stones could be purchasable at the gem store or merchant for a coniderable amount of money, so you can’t just switch it back and forth at will.
2. Similar to the other idea, a armor/weapon modifier’s services could be purchased to change your stat set, costing more for the higher tier and upgrades on the item.
I like that idea, weapons have X amount of stats on them, having a purchasable item/npc that allowed us to allocate those stats however we see fit would be nice.
For PvE/WvW only of course.
Naoko.
GW2 is based around player skill. The gear “grind” has a difinitive end to it as opposed to a never ending one.
Sounds like this is not the game for you.
There are plenty of other MMO’s out there that have gear grinds to them (WoW, Rift, LotRO, etc) Sounds like one of those would have more appeal for you.PS. I am not exactly sure you understand what socialism is. But thank you for sharing your political views.
Eh? I don’t think you actually read Blake’s idea. O_o
He didn’t suggest any gear-stats grinding elements in his idea.
You should read his post fully.
Don’t only read a couple of his sentences and assume,
“Oh~ he must be suggesting gear grinding”.
Imo, Blake’s idea is pretty balanced. Dedicated players made thousands times more efforts to gain a legendary. It’s pretty weird to get a legendary that’s worth like an exotic. His idea of legendary seems very balanced. It’s makes legendary be more attractive to be able to change to 5 different exotic stats. In the end, it’s still as strong as exotics.
Even though I won’t be getting legendary anytime these months or years, I will still strongly support his idea because it’s creative and very feasible.
————
People who’re against it either never read, or just revealed themselves that they get griefed easily if people get equipments that’re higher tier than theirs.
Yes, this is a MMO. It requires millions dollars every month or years just to maintain the servers. The ones that help fund them are usually those dedicated players. If the game doesn’t appeals to dedicated players, they will leave the game sooner or later. So no matter if they have RNG in monthly events, the ones who actually spend in RNG are no longer in the game. To prevent that, they must start awarding the dedicated players. Something that set apart between dedicated players and very casual players.
@penatbater
1) Seriously ?
2) Just think outside of the box. While basic and fine transmutation stones are a source of ANet’s income adding this feature to the legendary might be a better source of income. Let’s be honest, the more players come back to play the game the more money they would make and trust me, the income would be a lot bigger. For example: in your quest of getting the legendary you will spent lots of gold ( gems or time ) and you will still buy transmutation stones to transmute your exotics until you get the legendary. Oh and about 1), more types of armor = more slots = more bags = gems = money for ANet, also see the bank upgrades. This suggestion won’t sink the market for sure, if anything the income will be bigger.
3) “oh you don’t need to work as much as the other players…” – oh but you already worked more than many players out there, why should we give you convenience ? (keep in mind this is not a stats breaking reward). While I agree having a legendary is an achievement who cannot and will not be achieved by all, after getting the legendary what will you do ? It feels like the legendary needs a little more to it. This suggestion does not break any philosophy that ANet has. And, by the way, it does not violate the notion, it’s like saying no, you should totally leave the invisible players problem in WvW because it was thought that way.
1. Seriously. As I’ve said, the intent of getting a legendary is merely the skin, whereas for other people who want other builds on the fly, they have to farm/grind a bit more for every stat combo they want. Add in another variable that the stat they want might not be on the skin they want, so that’s another transmutation problem.
2. More players will not come back to the game once they realize “oh legendaries can have any stat they want”. Most people left due to content (or lack thereof), due to MF shennanigans, and not the legendary itself. I hardly think anyone who made his legendary will say “ok, i’ve beaten the game. time to say goodbye”.
3. “after getting the legendary what will you do ? It feels like the legendary needs a little more to it.” This is the reason I’m against it. From the get-go, we all knew legendaries would ultimately be about the skin, and you will most likely transmute the item to an exotic of stat choice. This statement feels a bit entitled to me. Imo, players with legendaries are no more entitled to the game than normal people.
I guess this feeling arose from the fact that many people might not be familiar with gw’s idea of ‘grind for skin’, and after completing an seemingly insurmountable challenge, they felt they needed a bit more compensation for time and effort used. Legendaries are fine, leave them as it is. For anything, I’d rather the suggestion that they’re account-bound be taken more seriously than this. But I gave up even on that suggestion.
(edited by penatbater.4710)
Is it just me or … ? I think some of those guys don’t read this thread at all except for the 1st post. Once again “Sevens the lucky” get out, you said this thing too many times now, WE GOT IT ! If you’re not going to bring strong arguments then we don’t need you here.
By the way, this should be moved to suggestions as someone said above. Any moderator here, please ?
I have no desire to “get out” except to get out the message that legendarys are nothing but skins….and what stronger argument do I need except that Anet has stated thats all they are and all they want them to be, Quit trying to change the game to suit you and accept it for what it is.
No thanks.
If you didn’t want to work towards a cosmetic item then you shouldn’t have done so.
Please don’t turn this game into a horrible gear grind, right now it’s easy to get max stats and then fights are decided by who is better.
With this proposal it would come down to who has played the most and farmed their way to legendaries.
There are dozens of MMO’s already where the objective is gear grind for months and months so you can kill everyone else by default – this doesn’t need to be one too.
in the list of developers I have the least faith & trust in.
Congratulations ArenaNet!
People who’re against it either never read, or just revealed themselves that they get griefed easily if people get equipments that’re higher tier than theirs.
Yes, this is a MMO. It requires millions dollars every month or years just to maintain the servers. The ones that help fund them are usually those dedicated players. If the game doesn’t appeals to dedicated players, they will leave the game sooner or later. So no matter if they have RNG in monthly events, the ones who actually spend in RNG are no longer in the game. To prevent that, they must start awarding the dedicated players. Something that set apart between dedicated players and very casual players.
Ofc we do , if the game is about looks , it is about looks , getting a legendary should never give any kind of advantage and end of story.
Also , what made you think the hardcore farmers are the ones who keep this game going money wise?
Heh , ofc it is not , first because they are the minority , so even if they do spend some money , that wont really amount to much.
Second , why would people who farm and are sick rich , spend more money on gems? They can buy gems with gold , and they usually got tons and tons of gold.
Casuals , the people who dont have tons of gold to get all event items from ingame game to begin with , those are the ones who buy gems for the most part.
No thanks.
If you didn’t want to work towards a cosmetic item then you shouldn’t have done so.
Please don’t turn this game into a horrible gear grind, right now it’s easy to get max stats and then fights are decided by who is better.
With this proposal it would come down to who has played the most and farmed their way to legendaries.
There are dozens of MMO’s already where the objective is gear grind for months and months so you can kill everyone else by default – this doesn’t need to be one too.
Not sure how this would give an advantage to legendary-owners.
It’s an out-of-combat stat-swap to stat distributions current available on exotics. You can get the same strength by having multiple exotics and equipping the one you want. As someone who carries around 3 exotic hammers, I can tell you I don’t get any stronger for having more options.
Considering the cost of a legendary, I don’t have any problems with being able to achieve something that could be done with a small fraction of the cost.
Of course, I’m not sure that this is a particularly good use of Anet’s development resources, given the need to make a entirely new stat-swap thing that would only benefit a very small percentage of players.
Although maybe if there was a new transmutation stone that let you “stack” the stats of one weapon into another for out-of-combat selection, that’d work.
People who’re against it either never read, or just revealed themselves that they get griefed easily if people get equipments that’re higher tier than theirs.
Yes, this is a MMO. It requires millions dollars every month or years just to maintain the servers. The ones that help fund them are usually those dedicated players. If the game doesn’t appeals to dedicated players, they will leave the game sooner or later. So no matter if they have RNG in monthly events, the ones who actually spend in RNG are no longer in the game. To prevent that, they must start awarding the dedicated players. Something that set apart between dedicated players and very casual players.
Ofc we do , if the game is about looks , it is about looks , getting a legendary should never give any kind of advantage and end of story.
Also , what made you think the hardcore farmers are the ones who keep this game going money wise?
Heh , ofc it is not , first because they are the minority , so even if they do spend some money , that wont really amount to much.
Second , why would people who farm and are sick rich , spend more money on gems? They can buy gems with gold , and they usually got tons and tons of gold.Casuals , the people who dont have tons of gold to get all event items from ingame game to begin with , those are the ones who buy gems for the most part.
So having multiple choices in stats gives you an advantage over other players? No. They would still be the same level as typical exotics.
Those “must be just for looks excuses”.. well, even with multiple choices, it would still be just for looks. It’s no different than having a Valkyrie, Berserker, Knight, Cleric and Rampager exotic. It will not have any advantage over other exotic players.
Imo, hardcore players are the ones who’re willing to spend RNG for legendary and those seasonal BLC. In any mmo, the spenders are the ones who want to outshine from the rest, therefore resort to paying stuffs in the game. Casuals are people who doesn’t want to stand out and wants the game to spoonfeed them.
A small change that could be made would be to either A/ Allow the LEgendary to have more the one upgrade (boost? not sure of my terminology here) applied to it or B/ make it the same as the other weaon but with a unique Quality. Something like ‘chance on Critical to summon an undead warrior allie for 10 seconds.’
I wish my Incinerator weapon was a bit…more. I saw a video on Bolt, a legendary sword that players coated in lightning with an interesting sound effect. Why can’t Incinerator have a similar effect, like being coated in a fiery aura. It seems Swords and Greatswords are ArenaNet’s fav
1.) Puts up an unfair advantage versus normal people who have to carry around many types of armor and weapons for different builds.
Buying all those 1g exotic weapons for different builds is nothing compared to the huge amount of gold/time spent on a legendary weapon.
A single weapon.
That guy will still need to buy the other weapon types if he wants to run other builds.
Seriously, this is a dumb reason to hate OPs idea.
I think this thread has many knee jerk reactions based on other posters suggestions (unique elites skills – unique sigils – better stats, etc) which are not the intention of the OP and which of course should not be taken into consideration as gear grind is not part of the GW2 philosophy.
The only advantage from being able to switch the stats with other similar exotics weapons stats combinations (off combat… maybe even in town only to make it more contained) is not to carry more gear / buying less low priced exotics).
Let’s face it if one is able to afford a Legendary…. buying 20 slot bags + other common exotics for their stats its not going to be out of their reach, this change will only be a “quality of life” type of deal, not unlike buying revive orbs / repair canisters.
Everyone can revive and repair armor but people that can afford it can do so instantly in the field, while the rest of use have to go the WP/Npc to do it.
(edited by Cancer.9065)
Gotta give this to you buddy, this is a brilliant idea.
I though this would another of those silly ‘change skills’ suggestions, but instead it was actually a decent proposal.
Being able to switch between base stats is actually a good idea, since it gives legendary weapons something else other than mere raw power, that players will definitely find useful, but that isn’t something that players without legendary weapons can’t get.
Instead having to keep multiple weapons of the same type on a character to costumize their build, you just get a legendary, and switch its stats when setting your build.
If anyone thinks it’s too ‘easy’ (get a weapon, get all variants), some progress could be added to the idea, turning it into another item sink, by making legendary weapons unlock possible prefixes by ‘eating’ exotic weapons.
Want your legendary to have a Carrion-type base stats? Feed it a carrion exotic, and now it can switch to carrion-type stats. Want it to be Cleric? Feed it a Cleric-type exotic.
The idea is so good, that it could be used also for hypothetical legendary armor.
(edited by MithranArkanere.8957)
I support this Idea 100%. I also think some sort of story line should be implemented so you don’t grind materials to make a skin. Instead you follow a series of hard quests and approach difficult tasks by yourself or with a group to collect account bound crafting materials that make up the legendary. I’ve posted the process awhile ago:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Fix-legendaries/first#post429489.
Ignore the first post, that was old thinking of when I first learned how legendaries were but basically changed it into a weapon with options. I like you’re approach to stats a lot more nice thinking ^^
break. I feel like they should be back by now..”
I like the idea. Thumbs up to it.
Time is a river.
The door is ajar.
I don’t see why people are bashing on this. It would only save 4 bag slots out of 160, hardly an advantage. Also, for those saying its just for the skin, it also changes skill animations, so its more than that already. I think its a great idea, since its just a convenient feature that lets you keep the skin no matter what stat combo you need (without a ton of transmutes).
On a separate note, if I transmute a legendary to a better stat combination with a stone, I keep the new animations right? (I think they’re part of the skin, but not sure.)
Anet has been clear about their intentions since day one.
GW2 is a game based on skill, not time played. Just because you have more free time than someone else doesn’t entitle you to better gear.
Anet has been clear about their intentions since day one.
GW2 is a game based on skill, not time played. Just because you have more free time than someone else doesn’t entitle you to better gear.
If you read the post you’d see that its not better. It’s just like carrying 5 weapons., that’s it. Same stats and stat combinations.
While we’re on this though, how about allowing us to dye them? Lets face it, a lot of people don’t like the rainbow effect but would still like to be able to show off their wealth, so being able to choose the color scheme would be a very nice plus and it’s a completely visual addition.
I am against this. If you are making a legendary weapon, it should only be because you like the skin on it, not because it grants you additional stats/ advantages over normal weapons. Doing so would move legendaries into a tier higher than exotics, causing a gear treadmill that will never end if the trend of added “benefits” for higher tier weapons keeps going.
Wow, some people love to flame.
You didn’t even read the OP.
He isn’t suggesting a higher tier of stats.
He’s suggesting that you get to “skip” transmutes when going for a different set of stats. Essentially, you’d be able to switch from Berserker to Knight to Carrion without having to transmute an exotic.
How is that unfair?
That’s exactly the same idea of what I thought xD.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Modifiable-Legendary-Stats/first#post808363
I’ve read some of the comments on the first page, and the problem is that some legendary weapons do not come with the stats you like.. and transmuting them back into exotic weapons is a crude idea. The implementation does not matter much, but there should be a less-crude idea to change legendary item stat without transmuting it using normal fine stones.
Plus, I’m already a bit worried about the need of carrying multiple sets of weapons – my inventory is crowded without it already :X