Guild Wars 2

“We do not want you ro grind in this game. We think this is not ok” except for when you’re level 80 and everything in PVE is one (boring grind) for armor skins or tokens. Farming events, farming dungeons. It feels like the ‘vision’ for 1-79 is dropped as soon as you hit 80. Don’t get me wrong I really liked this game and i’ve played it for a good full 2 weeks of /age time.

The focus seems to be on PVP at 80. I think that there are a few things ‘wrong’ in PVE. I will list them below. I’ll first tell wha I feel is wrong about it before I tell what I think should be done about it. TL;DR Skip to ‘Recap’ when you want to avoid reading the big text below

Armor

• Obtaining skins doesn’t feel rewarding; the stats are the same.

Obtaining exotic stats is not hard at all (easy). Once you are level 80 you can craft exotics of buy them off TP for a fairly low price. The problem is that all exotic gear has the same stats. At level 80 everything you do for gear will be for the skin. One big grind for a weapon/armor skin. I know a lot of people like this, even I did like it at first but because all the stats all the same it doesn’t feel rewarding obtaining a skin. You can show it off but you can’t inspect each other so it’s just a skin..

Dungeons

• Loot-system design doesn’t feel that rewarding.

Dungeons are really fun to do but not if you have to grind it 30+ time’s to get a full set or a weapon. Because the loot is a big pile of (vendor/salvage) blues, greens and ocassionally a rare and the money is not bad but not that good either. The main purpose to be in the dungeons seems to be the tokens. I don’t mind farming tokens but I don’t like the fact that there is nothing else to obtain. Sure there are dungeon sets but the gear obtained from outside the dungeon doesn’t look that much diferent.

World bosses

No world boss is difficult in this game except for when you don’t have enough people. A boss is either ‘not doable’ or ‘easy’ with not much in between. Also the loot is not so rewarding for killing a dragon that barely fits on your screen. The experience is great the first 2/3 times. After that it’s ‘been there, done that’.

• Slaying a boss isn’t that rewarding.
• Loot-system design doesn’t feel that rewarding.

Here are some things I think will increase the lifespan of PVE content and keep people loging in, not just for PVP.

Loot Sytem tips

I know Anet want to have a gear system that doesn’t force you to do anything but enables you to do everything. But what makes MMO’s strong is the personal progression. Gear progression is a big part of that. Why spent hours of grinding for another skin when everyone can get the same stats?

To make loot system more rewarding there should be a logical increase of stats. Not only blue, green, rare, exotic. For example: you can get gear from a dungeons story mode and craft similar (stat) armor. After you get a full set you can go explorable where rare crafting recipes drop same as rare armor from the bosses. Then you can spent the tokens from expl. on exotic crafting recipes or exotic armor.

• Loot is more rewarding like this.
• Crafting exotics will be harder (recipes more difficult to obtain)
• More fun to ‘grind’ dungeons knowing your making progress, not just farming tokens.

World bosses

One simple tip: Make world bosses also available as an instance
The number of people needed 10 or 20 or even 30. Guilds want to beat big dragons together. World bosses are a lot of fun but mind numbing easy when there are lots of people around and not doable when there are only a few. Anet can even enable difficulty levels on the bosses in the instance (easy/medium/hard).

Voila raids enabled with content already in place. Everyone can slay the big dragon outside of the instance so there is no loss on experience. But instanced bosses can provide (guild) achievements and even some loot/rewards that are not obtainable outside the world.

Recap

• Loot system doesn’t feel that rewarding at the moment.
  This can change by a logical increase of stats within the endgame at level 80. (example given above) Gear progression is a big part of an MMO and it’s missing completely in GuildWars2. It’s a big grind for skins at the moment and a big rain of blues/greens and an ocassional rare.

• Make world bosses instanced
  Make a 10, 20, 30 player instance of every world boss to a tight group of friends/guildmembers can fight the dragon for (unique) rewards or (guild) achievements. This way everyone can experience the boss fight (in the open world) and an instanced version for the people that want an extra challenge. Anet can set a difficulty (easy/medium/hard) all with their appropriate rewards.

Yes this is an issue that a lot of us coming from other MMO’s have found, Leveling from 1 to 80 makes sense with the loot reward system, Increasing our stats to challenge the higher level zones.

At 80 the rewards and the grinding is there, just the items have no use because we are not needing them for anything beyond max level.

-There is no future dungeon that requires items from grinding.
-No world boss that requires items from grinding.
-No Event that requires items from grinding.

Basically we are just grinding and collecting items for nothing progressive other than visual appeal.

Usually in order to have a sustained endgame in (PVE) you need to give players a goal and then add ways to reach it = Grinding for Gear, Quest items, Unlock items, anything that adds a requirement to unlock something adds to the grind and makes it beneficial ( such as going from quest gear, to dungeon gear, to raid gear)

But it seems a lot of players don’t want that style of gameplay.

No gear progression. GW1 didn’t have it, and honestly it’s one of the most important reasons I prefer GW over any other MMO. I could not care less about my stats, and I do not want to "have to do insert boring content here for hours and hours just to do insert fun activity here. I just came back from the WoW forums where people are complaining about the dailies – grinding the same mobs and quest day after day because they can’t get into high end raids otherwise. In GW, no content is denied to me once I’ve hit 80, and that is awesome. I can go where I want, whenever I want.

If I choose to, I can grind for prettier armor. But I don’t HAVE TO in order to compete. I can take my sweet time doing anything I want without being constrained by the fact that my gear isn’t good enough.

Besides, in all those gear-oriented games, you only have The Bestest Stuff until the next expansion. Then all your work is made useless and you can start all over again doing insert boring content here.

If Anet chooses to implement a gear treadmill, I’m going to be very disappointed.

@Tosha daydreamer.

Try to understand that, Nothing is forcing you to do something you don’t want to, You need to understand that you’re not the only one playing this game and that others have different ideas on what content or “Boring content” is.

You speak of guildwars 1 for not having this system and for you that may have been perfect, But if guildwars 1 is so perfect, Why the creation of GW2?

If content is released and you don’t want to do it, that’s fine.

The very concept of gear treadmill exists to keep you grinding away for stuff because you play a subscription and it keeps you in the game.
No thanks- I have said it before- I am not a hamster.
As for grinding why are so many players so attached to it? It is boring and time consuming.
What blows my mind, is that now that people don’t have to grind for better and better stats they grind anyway and then complain that there is nothing to grind for, because it is just skins?
This game is not the same as all the other MMo’s out there- some people still don’t grasp that and continue asking for it to be more like they had in this or that other MMO.

It is never going to be like that. This is a different game.
It has no subscription, if you are bored take a break until a content update.

Btw I am an 80, I do not grind, I do not farm and I certainly don’t do anything I don’t like or find boring.
So far I find new things to see and do everyday- I am really enjoying myself. The PvE in this game is a godsend.

@Tosha Daydreamer

I understand and you make a valid point. Gear shouldn’t be the primary focus of a game. I’m not saying it should be but I think, as Gustoril pointed out, there should be more then just a visual diference from gear that you can easily aqcuire and gear that took month’s of grinding.

You make a valid point on gear and gear progression but you don’t comment on end game. Let me ask you this: what else is there after you completed every dungeon step, 100% completion and doing all the meta events except for pvp and leveling an alt?

The lack of progression at level 80 is something that is closely related to gear but not limited to.

@ Gustoril. True. But it becomes a problem when you need to do stuff you don’t want, in order to play the stuff you DO want. You should not feel “forced” into boring content (however you define that) to reach interesting content (whatever that may be).

The reason why other MMOs never drew me in was because I was somehow feeling pressured to do something. Either because I had to pay a monthly fee ( “getting my moneys worth”) or by lacking stats. I don’t want to feel pressured. I get that enough in RL, I game to relax. Being pressured = not relaxing for me.

When I hit 80 in GW2, it felt as a relief. I can go where I want. Do what I want. When I log in, I decide what I want to do at that moment and do it. There are no limitations anymore, and that is really relaxing. I can just go out and smell the digital flowers, help guildies, explore a little bit, do an event or two or grind if I’m in the mood.

And about GW1: I never said it was perfect The only-grind-for-looks part was perfect for me, but by no means it was a flawless game overall. I really enjoyed GW1 untill they introduced heroes. After that, the PvE part lost its appeal to me. It was no longer needed to find other players, turning it into a single player game. I quickly switched to GvG and I really enjoyed that for a couple of years, until my guild slowly fell apart. Then it was just waiting for something new

@Morrigan

Read my comment to Tosha Daydreamer about my opinion on the ‘gear treadmil’. And for the PvE. It’s nice to hear about how you enjoy the PvE in this game.

What I tried to say in this topic is that there are ways to please the ‘hard core mmo player’. They have done a great job for non-mmo players and RPG gamers but the simple addition of putting world bosses available as an instance there is a chance that the more ‘enthousiastic’ mmo fan will enjoy this game for a longer period of time.

@ morrigan

Please share some of the content you experience and enjoy at 80, Also how long have you been 80?

High level players need to get back out into the rest of tyria. But they need more of a reason to play in other areas.

My idea here would help solve this by giving you a reason to play in low level zones.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Make-farming-fun-with-Karma-Collector-NPC-s/first#post412423

p.s. don’t get me wrong: GW2 endgame could use some improvements. But there are plenty of suggestions already without resorting to a gear treadmill Onshi has some good ideas, and there are other threads as well with good endgame ideas.

@onshidesign

Sounds like a grind just in a disguised and polite way lol.

My question is, why have a chance to obtain high level gear if it has no use?

Farming materials is also a grind, you’re working for something to obtain something.

Equanox.2081

:Let me ask you this: what else is there after you completed every dungeon step, 100% completion and doing all the meta events except for pvp and leveling an alt?

The lack of progression at level 80 is something that is closely related to gear but not limited to.

Once you’ve done and seen everything often enough that it starts to bore you, why should you log on anymore? You don’t pay a monthly fee. You payed 60 dollars, once.

If you rush through the content oyu like and if you like only parts of the content, you will probably reach this point before ArenaNet releases the first Content Pack (whatever they will call it). You should play something else until then. If you liked the ride, you might choose to come back once thre’s new content.

If you’re playing more slowly, you might not have seen everything before the next content pack. If you keep up that pace, you’ll have endless content to see, as long as you want to.

Gustoril.4195:

@onshidesign

Sounds like a grind just in a disguised and polite way lol.

My question is, why have a chance to obtain high level gear if it has no use?

Farming materials is also a grind, you’re working for something to obtain something.

Add playing in Orr all day long isn’t? This way you can play different events everyday.

@phooka

In other words: I should compare this game to Skyrim instead of WoW?
I play the game and when it’s finished I can choose to do everything again in a slightly diferent way?

I’m not saying it’s a bad game. I was just stating some tips that might stretch the lifespan a little bit. But maybe you are right, maybe this was how it’s suppose to be. Play it and move on!

Onshidesigns.1069:

Gustoril.4195:

@onshidesign

Sounds like a grind just in a disguised and polite way lol.

My question is, why have a chance to obtain high level gear if it has no use?

Farming materials is also a grind, you’re working for something to obtain something.

Add playing in Orr all day long isn’t? This way you can play different events everyday.

And you get to chose your reward.

In terms of gear, yes, it’s better to compare it to Skyrim.

Anyhow, Anet did promise to add new content regularly to keep us busy. We’ll just wait and see if they deliver on that promise.

IMO, GW2 does feel like a hamster on wheel during end-game. There’re no reasons for me to grind and do dunguens because there’re no rewards nor significance in doing them. A good and long-lasting MMO must have good end-game contents that keep players. WvWvW and spvp are not consider end-game because anyone can play them.

I fully agree with the thread-maker. GW2 needs major improvement in their end-games and rewards. Changing skin with the same stats is not a reward to me. At the end of the day, Lv80 players who plays 500 hours in end-game and Lv80 players who plays 5 hours in end-game are no different. There’s no progression in end-game.

I completely disagree with the Loot System Tips part.

Compare GW1 gear system, with WoW gear system.
WoW just keeps chugging better “tiers” of gear at you, wich trivializes older content.
This makes it better to just rush to improve your gear to the max, and then you can go to lower “tier” dungeons and zerg them effortlessly.
The gear has predetermined stats too and is obtained with tokens or by chance.

It’s boring and not really fun at all. You don’t feel stronger because you’re thrown stronger enemies at you that make you feel exactly the same.
You just see bigger numbers on screen. Is that really what you want?

GW1 is different – and in my opinion, way better.

1. You not only hunt for Gear throughout the game, but for Skills as well
2. Gear has randomly generated, customizable prefixes, inscriptions and suffixes.
3. You can salvage any and all of the 3, to then apply the ones you want to your favorite item.
4. Prefix and Suffix strength is random too, so you can get “perfect” strength, but it is rare. So you can get a Suffix with 10-15% chance to lifesteal. 15% will sell for ten or hundred times higher because it’s perfect.
   Example:
   You want to make your dream Sword.
   You obtained your dream Sword skin, but it has the wrong stats.
   You got several weapons across your gameplay, and managed to get an Axe with the perfect Inscription
   You may farm to make gold to buy your perfect suffix and prefix.
   You mix them together and voila, your perfect item.

This is how it should be in GW2, but with MORE stuff to hunt for.

I totally agree with Equanox and Gustoril. The leveling part was really fun and exciting but hitting 80 is exactly like hitting a huge wall. And you know that there’s nothing at all beyond that wall. Nothing concrete anyway, only superficial things like cosmetic gear. Sorry but I’m not 12-year-old anymore, I don’t care a single second about what other people might think of my character appearance. I’m not going to waste my time trying to get legendaries or dungeon armors just to show off in LA. What I’m wearing/using now was quite cheap and easy to get (full T2 cultural set for both my L80 characters), I’m more than pleased with the way my characters look so I don’t feel the need to get something else.
So I’ve no valid reason to do anything at all with my L80 characters. Please don’t bother giving me a list of what I could do, I already know all that and there’s absolutely nothing that would worth my time. I was trully amazed when I learnt that legendary weapons have the exact same stats as cheap exotic weapons that anybody can buy in the TP. Considering how hard and expensive they are to get I was expecting über stats, like 150% of what we have now. But no, they’re just normal weapons. And btw a longbow shooting rainbows, really?? Where are we here? “My little pony”? About dungeon armors I’ve already seen them all, as far as I’m concerned they’re all plain ugly. And I’m supposed to get one just so I can show everyone that I’ve run some lame dungeon a gazillion times? No thanks, I’m neither stupid nor 12-year-old. At one point I was farming gold to buy the T3 cultural sets, which look great on my Norn warrior and ranger, but then I realized something. I’m not playing with those characters anymore. So why should I spend all that time trying to get a better looking armor for those characters?
In all other MMORPGs I played the leveling part was ok or fun but the real game started at L80. In GW2 it totally feels like the game ENDS at L80. Unless of course you only care about useless and superficial things.

@ Phooka

hey man.

Your post describes the difference between hardcore and casual gamers, by pacing yourself the content seems to unlock slower, being a hardcore gamer we see all and do all which causes the content to run out.

If this game wants to keep a high population it will need a hardcore player base. As all games need, It cant survive off a casual “Go Play another game” way of thinking.

For an endgame for hardcore players we need a goal and restrictions,

It could be a gear restriction ( Requiring stronger stats to survive harder content, obtained through various different ways.

-Player number restriction (Requiring XX players for boss), taking on a 15 man boss with 5 people, well you can just.. good luck

-Teamwork restriction ( Boss difficulty ), Helping each other, activating objects that assist in defeating boss, If not executed correctly causes wipe and event reset.

-Questline requirements (Such as our entire story as example, we cannot do the last mission without completing previous missions),

-item requirement restriction (such as a key to unlock something which is obtained from an easier dungeon) << example of Explore mode needs story completed.

You want to know world of warcrafts system to support both casual and hardcore players, Everything is done through a 24 hour cooldown called -Dailies- which stops the hardcore gamers from taking off infront. So basically that is what it feels like to be locked out of content for 24 hours.

The casual gamers can reach the high end content, but by pacing.. it will take longer.

I hope that this game will never have dailies or something that prevents you from reaching content for a period of time.

Since some of you have asked I will elaborate, I don’t have a problem with world bosses being instanced content for guild or groups. ( this looks like code for raids btw ;P)
What I do have a problem with is rewards only being for that content and not being only cosmetic, because sure as rain it will start down the slippery slope of my gear is better that yours and “inspection” before you can join a group.

I agree with Tosha’s expierence, I found it very liberating to reach 80 and I was really happy to just chill out and smell the roses. Playing a Mesmer main, it was tricky to lvl her and she requires a lot of micro managing, it was also a lot slower than my friends on other classes.

I have been an 80 for a week and a half/ maybe 2 weeks not sure honestly because I noticed only afterward, I payed so little attention to my lvl that I missed it.
As for what I enjoy now. I love playing with friends who are lower level or not, doesn’t matter. I love solo exploring- and I don’t mean 100% map- I mean real exploring.

Let me give you an example. I played in the Betas and the stress tests and I play humans, all my chars are human. I know Queensdale pretty well I should think.
So last week I am playing around on my lvl7 Ele and I find a place I have never seen at all- it was really cool and a nice surprise.
Same thing happened the previous week on my Guardian- she triggered an event I had never seen before just because she talked to one little kid.
So basically I set my own goals and I do what I feel like.
Want to go kill all 3 world dragons tonight? done, if timing allows.
Want to go dive around LA for an hour, done!
Feel like crafting, no problem, load an alt.
Pretty much this is like a living breathing world and I can choose how to spend my time in it.
I still really want to try WvWvW but haven’t since the beta’s because I have too many things to do in PvE.
I tired making mental notes of so many cool things that I have seen and want to investigate more in depth at a later time that I will probably still be busy come exapansion

One thing I like to add is that the suggestion about gear is not a new system of obtaining gear or creating some kind of gear treadmill. The suggestion I do is based on what’s already in the game. The only thing I changed is the order in wich you obtain green → rare → exotic items. The system now allows you to skip everything and get exotic gear in minutes on hitting 80.

Gustoril.4195:

@Tosha daydreamer.

Try to understand that, Nothing is forcing you to do something you don’t want to, You need to understand that you’re not the only one playing this game and that others have different ideas on what content or “Boring content” is.

You speak of guildwars 1 for not having this system and for you that may have been perfect, But if guildwars 1 is so perfect, Why the creation of GW2?

If content is released and you don’t want to do it, that’s fine.

Gear/stat progression is a required part of any game it is a part of. So yes… if you’re asking for that, then you are forcing other players to play the way they don’t want.

@Morrigan

You sound like a cloud that just drifts around and goes wherever the wind blows, why would you even care if hardcore content was released?

Also the fact that you have an alt just proves that you ran out of content to do on your main/first character, And even more you are leveling crafting which is a grind itself, You even said yourself “As for grinding why are so many players so attached to it? It is boring and time consuming.” Yet you’re doing it without even realizing it.

@Beardrex

Only if you want to progress in gear, again .. you don’t have to, There are options out there that make the content available for casual gamers, Just look at wows raiding system, they have a 5 man, 10 man, 25 man raid system, the gear levels adjust to the higher numbers.

If you are just looking forward to completing the content but don’t want to grind like a mad man or put effort in to get there, then do the lower difficulty version of that content. You can still do the content, just the requirements are removed and the rewards are reduced (stats).

Leaving those wanting the challenge = Hardcore players to endure the struggle and be challenged.

@gustoril

You do realise that the whole guildwars franchise has always been based on personal skill instead of the amount of time a player could spend ingame?

It really sounds like you define “being hardcore” as “spending X hours to reach Da Epic Lootz and then coming back to pwn da noobz”. In guildwars, it was always that a skilled newbie could beat the living hell out of a veteran, unskilled player. That is the skill>time concept. Other games tend to lean towards time>skill, and those games have a gear treadmill.

I understand, it’s a whole different point of view that might not go well with some players. Hell, if you put me in a time>skill game, you’re making me very unhappy. It’s just not my thing. I like that fact that when I get smacked repeatedly in WvW, it’s because I suck, not my armor. I hate telling people “this game might not be for you”, so I’m not saying that.

BUT you seem to want to change the entire basic concept on which GW1 and 2 was built, creating an already-thirteen-in-a-dozen game.

@ Gustroril
I think you are assuming way too much.
Yes I have an alt, I have 4 actually and I have been playing them all along. I haven’t now suddenly started them. I haven’t lvled them much because I prefer playing on my main.

As for crafting- I love it- How is that a grind. doing something that you love?
I miss it because both my professions on my main are at 400, so now I craft on my alts too.
I care about hardcore content because of the mindset that comes associated with it.
You might think I am aimless as a cloud but I am not. My goals are just not yours or those imposed on my by the system. They are my own and I am free to make them.
This is precisely why I love this game so much- I can pay how I want, when I want.

@Morrigan @Tosha Daydreamer

I think you are missing the point that everything on level 80 is a grind at the moment. Nobody likes to grind but when you do it, you want to get rewards. If you are not rewarded well enough (ie. only getting a few blues afer defeating a dragon that doesn’t fit on your screen) then what is the point?

The experience is great but if you have to run a dungeon 20 times to get a full armor set that looks diferent but has the same stats, what’s the point?

I know I haven’t done EVERY dynamic event on the whole map, but i’ve done 100% and don’t want to walk around for hours just so I can help a little girl out of a cave.

@ Tosha daydreamer

You’re refering to “Time>skill” as in, I spend more time playing so I’m better? being that I have better stats? I dont see it that way.

If you’re focusing on WvW, then stats come into play as it already does now, A level 1 In WvW cannot defeat a Level 80 in world v world due to stats. There is already a time> skill with that.

I’m referring to a PVE side of endgame for hardcore players, in definition “Hardcore gamers prefer to take significant time and practice on games, and tend to play more involved games that require larger amounts of time to complete or master.”

The problem is, this game has no endgame PVE to master, there’s no challenge or time consuming reason for me or others to play.

As for Time>skill with stats and coming back to “pwn da noobz”, If you’re refering to WvW then simply seperate or reduce the stats on high end PVE gear while in PVP. Balancing is always an issue.

I stated in my previous post that there are ways to allow casual gamers the ability to complete content released for hardcore gamers, Simple by removing the requirements and reducing the loot to standard stats.

Stats would really only play a role in the Hardcore PVE side of things anyway. Casual would not be affected because a casual player wouldn’t need to grind in order to experience the content.

It’s like creating a dungeon, Just one difficulty set for casual players, the next level of difficulty (adding requirements) and rewarding higher stat loot, and so on. NO ONE is missing out.

@Morrigan.

“How is that a grind. doing something that you love? "

How is farming for gear to progress and battle more challenging content a grind if it’s something I love?

It’s good that you love this game so much and that you can pay how you want, when you want, but I’m proposing content that everyone from casual to hardcore gamers can experience, Just at different levels of difficulty. We don’t affect each other because we have our own version or way of playing.

@ Equanox.
I think you are missing the point that we are trying to make too.
Everything at 80 is not a grind- you percieve it as such because as you said you feel you have to put too much time/effort/ grind in for not enough reward.
What you seem to be saying is that you are bored because you feel you already have the reward and now have nothing left to do that is worth you time.
Fair enough- that is how you feel.
Please understand that to me the reward I have at 80 is and entire world to adventure in and do what I want for fun.
It is exactly how this game was advertised and it is why I pre-purchased it. It gave me exactly what I was expecting and wanted.

This argument again?

Wow, we’re all so reward-driven, aren’t we?

sighs

The philosophy behind Guild Wars 2 is: “Do it because you enjoy doing it, not because of the rewards you may or may not get from it. Rewards are irrelevant. Do the activity (crafting/dungeoning/evening/WvWing/whatever) because the activity ITSELF is fun.”

I’ve been 80 for a long time, and I’m still having fun doing events that I’ve never seen before. I’m glad that I could get exotics the instant I hit 80, because I don’t want a gear treadmill.

Everything that I enjoyed before level 80 is still available for me to enjoy after level 80. Travelling around the world, doing dynamic events, doing jumping puzzles, roleplaying. I enjoyed all those things before 80.

It’s a relief to me that I don’t have to get on a gear treadmill and just raid all the time. The game in most MMOs changes at level 80. In guild wars 2, it doesn’t. It remains exactly the same, and for me personally, that’s a good thing.

Sorry to say it, but if you want a standard MMO ‘endgame’, then yeah, maybe GW2 isn’t for you. Not all MMOs are for everyone. There’s a reason I don’t play WoW.

Leto.5642:

In all other MMORPGs I played the leveling part was ok or fun but the real game started at L80. In GW2 it totally feels like the game ENDS at L80. Unless of course you only care about useless and superficial things.

I guess I only care about useless and superficial things then. Good to know!

@raphaeldisanto

What’s already in place is very well done. I never questioned that. I just know that a few simple tweaks and optimiziations will also satisfy the ‘hardcore’ mmo player. This doesn’t affect the experience you have in the game. Gear seems to be a sensitive issue.

Ok so lets sum this up.

What about those who want a “gear treadmill” as everyone calls it?

from what I see is two parties, One wants a challenging endgame with a requirement (Gear,item,teamwork) system and the other just wants casual gameplay for fun.

Arena net can either cater to both or lose the hardcore player base, I guess that’s up to them if they want a different player base or not.

Clearly this is a argument of -personal preference- and there is no end to this, anyone wanting content will just need to wait for next expansion.

I just hope this game doesn’t go to waste by choosing only one side and not both.

“In GW2 it totally feels like the game ENDS at L80. Unless of course you only care about useless and superficial things.”

I consider most other MMOs to end around level 15-20 when the game goes from “progress and learn” to “get better @#$%ing items kitten.” Unless of course you like useless (doing the same thing with bigger numbers) and mind numbing (do dungeon X until gear Y drops so you can do the same in dungeon Z) things.

And yes, WoW ends around level 15-20 (maybe 30 since I heard they made it easier to level). After that, the game turns into a zombie fest game of “Do X over and over and over and over and (ad infinitum) again and we’ll give you a bigger number! ZOMG!”

-Here’s a new dungeon! +50 to your numbers if you kill these plants instead of those droids for 5 days! Then you can go kill the fire imps for 5 days for another +50! Then the demons! Isn’t this AWESOME!?

“What about those who want a “gear treadmill” as everyone calls it?

from what I see is two parties, One wants a challenging endgame with a requirement (Gear,item,teamwork) system and the other just wants casual gameplay for fun."

There’s a lot of things GW2 said it would be – and a lot it said it would not be – and a lot that’s grey and mutable. What you’re asking for is for GW2 to be something it said it would not. Other games let you go through gear threadmills.

How about you collect every dungeon drop from every dungeon? All lights mediums heavies and all weapons? Then move on to the next. Other then the little placebo of +50 damage / dungeon, it’s exactly the same as wow. Actually, still probably faster. . .

@Gustoril

I completely agree. It’s up to Anet what they want with this game. If they continue to do the same with expansions I guess I will only play it trough once. But my hope for now is that they find a way to accomodate the needs from casual/hardcore and in my opinion there is lot’s of potential to do this without altering the experience for everyone else.

@GAdefence

Yes, but this entire post has been about the purpose of collecting these items. I need a goal for something greater instead of just for the hell of it.

But it doesn’t matter. Again, two parties, two different opinions, no one is going to agree.

So, All you wanted in this game was a World with 1 NPC selling all items for 0c.

Okay, I’ll bite into this discussion. First, my negative view that agrees, then my positive views to counter the above whining, and finally a suggestion:
I’ll agree the dungeon loot is not correct. There should be one guaranteed rare per dungeon run. The only thing you can do is (if you have bag space) is to collect the blues and mystic forge upgrade them (I usually sell). I have to admit in our guild chat a lot of folks complain that the dungeon loot is essentially garbage except for that rare time a dungeon mob drops a rare you can salvage for an ecto.
Positive countering view:
The end-game armor is fine. Those arguing for continual upgrade of stats and such at level 80 are fools and don’t realize the imbalance to the game it would cause between pvp and pve. I think ArenaNet’s approach is correct in permitting just cosmetic changes. Besides, if you are truly in to this game, you should have more than one armor set for your character for handling different situations (bosses, pvp, pve, etc.).

BIG SUGGESTION:
Please ArenaNet make the dungeons participation scaleable. What I mean, allow 5 up to 25 people run the same dungeon, by adjusting the difficulty depending on the number of people in the squad/party. I think this would not be difficult to do since your whole mantra is to break the holy trinity and not require certain classes in the dungeon fights.

Is this true?
Something I’ve noticed is that when you are partied up in the higher level zones the loot drops seem better. Is this some sort of subliminal way to get people to group up, if so I am for it.

@curtegg

Nice suggestion, which is similar to what I stated above, but by having the loot seem better for the larger versions of a dungeon just adds to the stats (increase) argument which will start this whole thread again.

Unless they’re only visual enhancements.

If you are stating that these 25 mans will have better loot (stats) then in your own words “those arguing for continual upgrade of stats and such at level 80 are fools”

@curtegg- yes your guess is correct your rewards are better across the board if you are teamed up vs solo.
The game is solo-able of course but the reward for teaming up is not just social.
Also your idea of scaleable dungeons is a good one and fits the game as it is now.

I’ve gotten to a point where I enjoy these threads…. Those saying the endgame needs improvement are correct, I just don’t want to see improved in the same way most do. I don’t wait raids. I don’t want gear between exotics and legendary to grind for (keep those legendary items a universe away so the traditional MMO player use to the grind treadmill will get discouraged and understand this is not that game and that legendary weapons are meant to be long term rewards and not the sole reason to keep playing post level 80…. GW2 wasn’t built to be that other game.

What I would like to see is team/party instances in the open world (something between personal story and dungeons) that a team can can come across. I think these would be great for new expansion and to sprinkle into the current high level zones. If you happen to be in a party you and your max level you could just stumble across these zones (little blue stars instead of the personal story greens).

I’m thinking some criteria should be met before these open up

• All party members must be max level
• All party members must have finished their personal story (killed Zhitan)

The instanced zones would occur all of the world map and be designed for max level, strategic team play. They would be much shorter than dungeons.

I’d love to be able to wish these into existence. As a GW2 player I’d love to work with a max level team to try and hunt such instances down.

starting post sounds like an expanded version of I want the game to have a grind, please place large carrots on a stick so everyone else will grind too.

My only problem with the game is that players are still trying to play snatch and grab instead of learning the game rewards cooperation.

Gustoril.4195:

Also the fact that you have an alt just proves that you ran out of content to do on your main/first character, And even more you are leveling crafting which is a grind itself, You even said yourself “As for grinding why are so many players so attached to it? It is boring and time consuming.” Yet you’re doing it without even realizing it.

The above paragraph pretty plainly reveals that some people don’t realize how their preferences and style of play are not universal. Case in point: the myopic assumption here that, if someone is playing alts, it must only be because they’ve already exhausted all the content on their “first” character.

Not everyone plays this way. I don’t play this way. Barely anyone I know plays this way. And it’s easy to see that many people on these forums don’t play this way.

I was given five character slots at the outset, so I’m using all five of them. I play five different classes because each class offers a different experience, a different style of play. This approach also broadens my knowledge of team dynamics. For example, I don’t have to ask the Engineer what their fields are, because I already know, because I play one myself. I’m already aware of how I can work with them.

To me, the classes count as content. To me, a “hardcore” MMO player learns the entire breadth of the game, because they’re in it for the long haul, and playing alts is a big part of that. This is also important for PvP, on which GW2 obviously places significant focus. In short, we have multiple character slots (with the option to buy more) for a reason.

The Casual Player vs. Casual Play
Not even under the most forgiving of definitions could I be called a casual player. I’ve played this game a lot since its release. I’d guess that I’ve put in more time than many of these people with level 80s who claim that they’ve run out of things to do.

However, I do play casually. Which is to say, I do not (and will not) grind (“grind” being largely relative). I have a low tolerance for farming in that it becomes “grindy” for me quickly. I avoid high-stress scenarios, such as the environment so typical of “raid content” in other games.

Does this mean I’m not hardcore? I don’t think so. In fact, I’d say I’m more hardcore than the folks who insist on approaching MMOs in a linear fashion. The very fact that I don’t have a character at 80, and won’t for some time yet despite my level of investment, illustrates this. Grinding, farming, power-gaming to level cap: these things, in my view, do not make you a “hardcore gamer”. They make you a linear gamer. And a strictly linear playstyle is difficult, if not impossible, to accommodate within the structural context of an MMO.

Adjusting the Vertical and the Horizontal
MMOs have to be as much about the horizontal as the vertical, if not more so. The developers must prioritize lateral design over linear, because they’re about creating a sustainable, long-term (8-10 yrs) game model. Linear design is just far too easily and quickly consumed to be a viable option on its own. No dev team has ever been able to keep up the rate of consumption of players. This game was developed over the course of several years, and yet there were players who blew threw the available linear path in a matter of days. The only way to keep an MMO vital over the long-term then is to offer breadth of experience: horizontal design.

If a player doesn’t want to take advantage of this, if they’re locked into linear gameplay as style and preference, maybe the genre just isn’t for them? This game offers a deep exploration experience (the world exploration achievement doesn’t actually mean you’ve explored the whole of the world, by the way), it offers PvP, it offers market play, crafting, guild development, multiple classes and so on. If a certain percentage of the player base chooses to ignore all of this… how is that a fault in the design? Isn’t this more an issue of a player’s self-imposed limitations?

It’s Not All About You
If you’re all about linear progression and style of play, great. There is something in GW2 for you, and more is no doubt on the way. But please remember: your preferences are not the only ones out there. And, frankly, in terms of an MMO community, you’re probably in a minority, because your preferences run directly counter to long-term commitment. ANet is striving for broader appeal: PvPers and PvEers; Immersionists and RPers; Marketeers and Crafters; Team Players and Soloists, Casual and Hardcore. So, clearly, development cannot be all about the “end game”. “End game” is a linear concept, and honestly, a large swath of players do not look at things that way.

The game can’t be limited to one facet, just because you limit yourself that way. The future of GW2 development has to take the broad view. If you want a more specialized experience, there are plenty of games out there that offer that. One of the great things about the MMO model, especially GW2’s, is you can always come back when they’ve added more of your particular flavor of game.

Meanwhile, those of us hardcore MMOers will be here, sampling all the flavors, “end game” and everything else.

Almost every other MMO in the world has a raiding endgame and a gear treadmill. Some of us came to Guild Wars 2 because we wanted something different. We wanted a game where, because of how easy it was to acquire the best gear in the game, gear itself became irrelevant. We wanted a game where the reason to play was the enjoyment itself of playing, not the carrot you get at the end of your play session.

We wanted a game to be a game, not a job, where outmoded concepts like “work” and “earn” were reduced in importance. Where we explore dungeons because they’re fun, not because they drop “phat lewt”. Where, at max level, we can explore every area in the game, just to explore, without needing to have a certain tier of gear equipped.

We wanted a game where progression was rendered far less meaningful, where the players who play don’t require character progression to remain interested in the game. We wanted challenging content. But we like that you don’t get better rewards for doing it than doing other things, because that emphasizes the “Do it because you enjoy it, not because you’ll get phat lewt” ethos that permeates this game.

We wanted a game that begins at level 1, not at level 80. Everything that you enjoyed before level 80, you can continue to enjoy -at- level 80, unless your enjoyment from the game comes from continual character progression. Mine doesn’t. Maybe yours does. There’s nothing wrong with that. It’s a valid playstyle. But Guild Wars 2 isn’t going to scratch that itch for you. It’s the wrong kind of MMO.

We didn’t want a traditional MMO. We got what we wanted. And ArenaNet have never ever claimed that this game would have a gear treadmill, or endgame raids. If you came here looking for that, you obviously weren’t paying attention.

@Hydrophidian

I am sorry but you have a vague definition of what a ‘hardcore’ gamer is and you make it look like you have inside knowledge of the dev team. Yes content will be cleared by a group of people the first week or even first days. But that doesn’t mean that it shouldnt be there? All players will be given the opportunity to do the content. Some the first week, some after a few months.

There is currently no endgame and this isn’t good for a game that (your words) should last 8-10 years.

Basicly you are saying that we should not specialize in 1 character and play all of them. What if I don’t want that? What if i want to specialize in guardian, optimize it for every situation. What’s there to do? I’ve done world bosses, done all the jumping puzzles. What’s next? Grind hours and hours for karma in the same Orr zone for a legandary that’s going to shoot rainbows?

No: I want to have a challenge in the game and a challenge with friends. I want to down bosses with a select group of people of guilds and not faceroll over world bosses like it’s happening now.

I realize this debate is leaning towards a discussion of hardcore/casual player where even the term ‘hardcore’ is interpreted diferent. There are a lot of reasons why the system is good as it is, but there are an equal amount of reasons why the system is bad as it is now.

You can choose what you want to do at 80 but you can’t choose endgame bosses, endgame dungeons, endgame quests except for farming karma in Orr areas.

Great that you want to experience every inch of the game. I want to focus on 1 character and play it to the fullest. At 80 it’s hard keeping yourself entertained when rewards are only visual after farming the same dungeon 30+ times.

After reading all these comments, let’s face it.
GW2 is best for the journey to 80, and the weakest for end-game.
I personally feel GW2 has the best journey to level cap among any mmo I played.

In any mmo, the reason why end-games are favored is because people are rewarded for being at the level cap. At end-games in any mmorpg, majority players do raids for better gears while progressing their character. Some do guild/faction wars as a reward for reaching high level and gears. A good end-game encourages a player to go above his limits than his level cap. An mmo should constantly progress players even after their journey has end. If not, it’ll be just a solo-rpg ps3 or xbox game where the game is just for the journey to the end of the story and events. This is why I feel a good end-game is the most important factor in any mmo in order to constantly pull players to play.

GW2 is designed differently than a typical mmo. It’s designed like Skyrim and Dragon Age where the monsters scale-up to the player’s level. Those I mentioned are solo-rpg games. The reward are just for it’s exploration and story progression. Those games have no one to brag your characters with in end-game, nor anyone to compete your achievements with. The reason why some players find mmorpg more fun than a single-rpg is because they’re playing together yet competiting at the same time with their friends and other guilds. It’s a “multi-player game” afterall. Mmo games are like sports. If there’re no results/progressions for hardwork/efforts, people lose motivations. If there’s no competitor, people lose motivations too. It’s something I know based on experience and observation of human nature.

GW2 can still improve in their end-game.
Something that allow end-game players to compete with each other with actual rewards. (WvWvW and sPvP are not considered end-games because it’s for both new and level-capped player.) I still have faith in GW2’s future. They made great invention like dynamic and heart events. I’m sure they can think of something good for gw2’s end-game too. ^^