Guild Wars 2

When I first read about Guild Wars 2 years ago I was truly excited to see the abandonment of the ‘Holy Trinity’, after experiencing GW2 for the last couple of weeks I am not convinced that they’ve nailed it. Infact I find myself wishing that defined class roles were in place to make the combat less mundane.

Threat management and balancing it was an artform before it was dumbed down considerably in many MMOs.

The art of ‘pulling’, CCing mobs and intellingent and structured support was also an artform before it was dumbed down in many MMOs.

Healing was also something that truly defined a player in their role.

DPS, intelligent players that can manage threat and know when to switch to support when required.

I’m sorry to say this but I have to admit I find the pve combat in GW2 very much a disorganised zerg with little if any thought put into playing. Its a shame because the structure of the classes is quite good, the world is incredibly beautiful and well fleshed out and I really want to keep playing it. I’d like to see good players stand out a lot more than they do at present, being exceptional at their role allows them to do just that.

It would be a massive over haul but I would love to see each class having different builds allowing them to fill the roles we are used to in MMOs. I can only speak for myself but I find that gameplay more rewarding.

It sounds like you should probably not be playing GW2 then, my friend, it’s been pretty clear from the start that there would be no “class roles” like you’re thinking of. WoW seems like your kind of game, and I don’t mean that in a derogatory or insulting way.

There are more MMOs than just WoW that use a holy trinity my friend.

Okay, so play ToR, TSW, LotRo, D&DO, EQ, EQ2, GW1, Runescape, Vanguard, or any of those tons of other options.

Hah… no. Why would something like this even be suggested??

So you are suggesting that the combat in its current state is fine? Thats probably more to the point than your list of game options.

i think its a breath of fresh air if anything. to me its certainly more realistic. i dont really think that if you were to take any sort of situation that any mmo boss fight in real life that it would simply sit and bash on only one or two targets. id rather see the dragon/demon/giant/whatever go about smashing at everyone in the group and not just oddly focus on just one little person.

yea yea, i know mmos are supposed to be “realistic” or anything, but i really think that this system is a little better. it allows for each individual to show their own worth by not only contributing to the death of the target but also in their own ability to keep themselves alive and provide support in any way, whether it be some healing to others, combo fields or buffs for the group.

sure it has its inherent flaws but really i think these can be overlooked if given the chance. im sure the holy trinity system used in most games has its flaws too

but im not going to sit here and try to convince you otherwise, different strokes for different folks i guess. if the trinity is your thing, maybe check out other games. but really i think the current combat system is here to stay for GW2. it is, afterall, something ANet has been mentioning since the game was in development. and who knows, maybe this could become a sort of trend in other games. maybe someone else will take up the idea one day and perfect until it becomes a system that works as well as the trinity system of other mmos.

Absolutely Forrae, I also thought it was a breath of fresh air. Sadly, for me, it just became mundane and completely shallow too quickly. I appreciate your comments and completely agree that its different strokes for different folks, I honestly thought I was going to enjoy it. Without change though I can’t see any real challenge in the combat mechanics the way they are.

There’s plenty of challenge, unless you’re intent on “I’m class X therefore I will do Y”. The moment you do that, you turn GW2 into every other MMO with cookie cutter builds. My guild is currently having a debate about getting the right builds for dungeons. It has nothing whatsoever to do with classes.

Whilst your argument is both reasoned & reasonable, it’s also a dead-letter. This game was not designed in the same way as “all the other” MMO’s, and it won’t be re-designed because you find it shallow & mundane. Just the same as there won’t be mounts, just the same as level scaling won’t be removed, just because a minority of players don’t like it. Not wishing in the least to be nasty, but if you don’t like the style of game, there are plenty of others better suited, as has been suggested. There’s only one game like GW2…

Raedwulf.3712:

There’s plenty of challenge, unless you’re intent on “I’m class X therefore I will do Y”. The moment you do that, you turn GW2 into every other MMO with cookie cutter builds. My guild is currently having a debate about getting the right builds for dungeons. It has nothing whatsoever to do with classes.

Whilst your argument is both reasoned & reasonable, it’s also a dead-letter. This game was not designed in the same way as “all the other” MMO’s, and it won’t be re-designed because you find it shallow & mundane. Just the same as there won’t be mounts, just the same as level scaling won’t be removed, just because a minority of players don’t like it. Not wishing in the least to be nasty, but if you don’t like the style of game, there are plenty of others better suited, as has been suggested. There’s only one game like GW2…

I know that they won’t change the combat mechanics. There isn’t a snowflakes chance in hell of that happening but to be honest if I could only suggest one thing, thats what it would be. By giving the classes defined roles or builds, it goes some way to helping fix the unispiring boss mechanics and zerg mentality gameplay, two of the biggest factors that really kill what is otherwise a great game.

For me, the game is a bit of a let down and I’ve got to say that I have blown ArenaNets trumpet for months honestly believing that this game was going to redefine MMOs going forward. After the first week I thought I was correct, by the end of the second week I had my doubts, the gameplay is just too incredibly shallow. If the game has achieved one thing, it has helped me understand why the trinity is in MMO’s in the first place. I’m not saying MMOs should be that way for the rest of time, I’d love to see the trinity get over hauled and or dramatically expanded on. I thought GW2 was going to do it, it hasn’t.

Im one to kind of stand on the fence, but i kind of agree, i feel that mostly someone has to take a leadership position and just rush in and pull first. right now im a guardian who is all power\precision. meaning im mostly DPS but since i wear plate i mostly try to take aggro off someone who has a shield and not doing a good job keeping it off others. i would like it if they could make certain attacks maybe more.. trinity style. IM NOT SAYING putting trinity in… but having a taunt for all classes or a direct heal spell is not bad either, that way players can CHOOSE and organize each other so that there is some kind of communication on what eachothers tasks is instead of bull rush it and revive anyone who falls. maybe have engineers have a type of bandaging kit? were you can heal people up close alot more. i know there is something like this already but a pure heal or pure tank weapon wouldnt be bad.
Heal = like a vial of water or something?
Tank = Sword\spiked shield
or change the mace into something a bit more helpful.

>>>This shouldnt be changed to be like every other mmo, but increasing idk.. a “tanks” energy level will help them dodge alot more with the taunts they can avoid damage more and still help prevent their friends from getting hurt. though taunts may be pushing it, there still should be a way for players to see how much aggression they are getting from a mob so they can know when to back down and let a plate wearer take over or something.

But in the end i agree.. SOMETHING needs to change.. it cant stay like this zerging and button mashing.

Edit: And as i read others comments, maybe there can be boss personalities.. ones that are more intelligent and are able to be taunted and redirect aggression or wild ones that flail around and hit all people randomly, meaning more maneuverability. However having seen a theif have to tank a boss and us having to revive him over n over just doesnt seem.. well fun imo.. it was fun indeed and i loved the dungeons but it just doesnt feel.. well organized.

You have some good suggestions Deazarook.

i got a little carried away but in short i just mean.. dont change the fundamentals of GW.. im an ex WoW player and id hate having that feeling of “YOU suck at dps! You Suck at Tanking! You suck at healing!”. Change Whats given to us in GW to better fit rolls. Plate\Leather\Cloth dont really mean anything if we are all Dps\Heals\Tanks. we might as all wear plate and leather :P.

Maybe depending on the god they worship or their trats (aggression\charm\honor) (i think those are it) it can react with how much they heal or how much theykitten off a boss or something.
im just spitballing but dont just shoot down this idea just because you dont want it to be “WoW like” .. it just needs tweaking.

gw2 PvE dungeons force you to teamplay at least the explorer mode versions. You dont run into those with a random build. You tinker and theorycraft a team that works.

Again some great ideas. I like it. Using the gods they worship and traits is a nice idea also. They both seem a little pointless in the game (from my experience so far), adding them into the combat mechanics seems like a great suggestion.

As far as WoW goes, there are many features of that game that Blizzard do very well, you’d be foolish to think otherwise. Dungeon and Raid encounters is one of them that stands out. There is no harm in taking something that a developer has done previously and expand on it, almost all developers do it.

The Holy Trinity has always been silly. Players have grown so accostumed to it they don’t even think logically about it anymore.
Pulling and Threat – what sense do they make, honestly?
What makes you think a being would chase you around a corner?
What makes you think a being would ignore those who are hurting him the most just because of your insults?

Any being under attack will either run away, or try to remove the sources of danger – either the greatest, or the easiest to deal with.

Anything other than that is just delusional.

Enjoy a different game for a change.

I enjoy this game just the way it is, any move into the trinity direction would disappoint me. I started playing this game to not have to get forced into roles and instead have a free option to build my class the way I wanted.

You cant walk into an instance and think that the spec you enter with will work on every encounter, thats the reason trait skills, utility and elite skills are interchangeable on the fly outside of combat.

Take the tar boss in Arah as an example. Pick up all burn traits/skills you can and dont bother with the whiskey, most simple fight in the whole game. Then afterwards switch back to what you use regularly.

All encounters are easily beatable with the right skills in your group, do some study, tell people what they need to use and you cant fail. Many people also die because they stress dodge when its not needed, many ranged attacks for example are easily avoidable by just strafing left and right very small distances (oozes and grubs for example).

Proactive thinking also helps, like engis equipping their med kit and dumping med packs before a pull then putting their turret back as a heal skill.

It’s early days yet and some of the combat, events etc. no doubt need a little tweaking. For instance AOE effects probably stack too much, making AOE zerging more effective than it should be. Also currently ranged play styles tend to be lot safer than melee without significant compensations. When you try something new that’s as complex as changing the whole mechanics in MMOs it takes a bit of time to balance it all out. But the signs are good.

Salt.4621:

By giving the classes defined roles or builds, it goes some way to helping fix the unispiring boss mechanics and zerg mentality gameplay, two of the biggest factors that really kill what is otherwise a great game.

i actually do agree with this. if not giving each class more a defined support damage or control role, at least do it with the trait lines. to me, it does seem that there are some traits that are more designed to do one thing or another. it just doesnt feel as if they are as well defined as they could be. what they were trying to do was make things so all classes could perform and contribute to each role, but i wouldnt see the harm in putting more emphasis on role in a class

Nurvus.2891:

The Holy Trinity has always been silly. Players have grown so accostumed to it they don’t even think logically about it anymore.
Pulling and Threat – what sense do they make, honestly?
What makes you think a being would chase you around a corner?
What makes you think a being would ignore those who are hurting him the most just because of your insults?

no doubt this is true. whenever i would think more realistically about any encounter i did when i played WoW (from late wrath literally up until GW2 came out), it was always a more epic sort of battle, the boss or whatever charging up and down about the party and not focusing on just one little guy. or even trash pulls, you’d think that after 6 years, trash in that game would be smart enough to exclusively target healers (wait, nevermind. most players in battlegrounds couldn’t figure that out either)

it is a nice change to see something a little more realistic, but it does not cancel out the need for a greater definition of at least some roles. for instance, put in the trait trees some sort of description highlighting what the tree does best, whether it be stacking conditions, dealing direct damage, providing more support in terms of boons and combo fields or just plain old healing. i think that would certainly clear up a lot of the confusion and other problems.

forrae.6708:

i actually do agree with this. if not giving each class more a defined support damage or control role, at least do it with the trait lines. to me, it does seem that there are some traits that are more designed to do one thing or another. it just doesnt feel as if they are as well defined as they could be. what they were trying to do was make things so all classes could perform and contribute to each role, but i wouldnt see the harm in putting more emphasis on role in a class

You can already create synergies between different builds and different classes, if say you are doing a dungeon or something in a group. If you look at the full range of utility skills along with the combinations that are possible across classes, you can come up with team builds that work well together.

Just because you don’t need to adopt a strict trinity doesn’t mean that different classes can’t perform different roles in GW2 groups. Like GW1, GW2 is a team game and the builds you come up with are team builds – it’s just that in GW2 there’s less concentration of particular types of skill in particular classes so responsibility for roles can be shared more across the team. In GW1 you healing & condition removal skills would be concentrated in a single class, whereas now it can be spread across all classes.

Forrae, I simply feel the opposite.
I really do not want to see defined healing, support or tanking roles.

It makes perfect sense that everyone needs to be able to fight and pose a threat.
It is awesome that in this game you can avoid damage through active abilities (aegis) and maneuvers (dodge), rather than passively (dodge/parry/block stats, miss chances).

You already have quite a few abilities that are supportive, such as those that damage enemies and heal allies in the area, or slow enemies and speed up allies.

Increasing the extremes will just bring the trinity back.