Risen and Monster Types
I agree.
This is especially irritating at 80th level, where you are forced to teleport back to older zones to hunt for lower level variety mobs when there are already a plethora of mobs in Malchoir’s Leap, Cursed Shore, and Straits of Desolation.
Risen should count as more than one variety of monster. Whether it is a bandit, spellcaster, warrior, giant, spider, worm, spirit, etc. It’s silly that we have to go back to old zones just to do the daily.
I think it’s good that people are encouraged to leave orr in order to complete the daily. It’s not like you have to go very far to do it.
[SFD] – Maguuma
@Awesome For my part, the argument is about common sense, not about whether or not we should be forced to leave the zone. Granted, if the change I suggest were implemented, players would be able to complete most if not all of their Daily Kill Variety achievement in Orr, but this hardly deserves consideration. By the time they get to Orr, most players have already visited every other zone to one degree or another and reasons to force them to revisit those zones need not be concocted. Many players will do this on their own anyway via alternate character development, or to help friends with lower level characters, or to gather lower level crafting materials, etc.
If this isn’t based on the daily then why do you care? Is that giant slayer achievement really attractive to you?
[SFD] – Maguuma
Theory, not winning, motivates me. I care because disregarding common sense threatens the plausibility of a setting. As much as possible, a setting needs to adhere to some measure of common sense and the established rules of its own universe. Without such concepts forming the backbone of game development, what’s the point?
To bring it back to the argument at hand, what it means to be a giant in Tyria, as far as I can tell, is exactly what it means to be a giant in our own mythology; that is, giants are above all big. The precedent is set. When a giant becomes risen, it doesn’t lose that quality. It doesn’t shrink or become something distinctively non-giant or it would not be called ‘giant’. It’s still a giant, even if it has also become risen, and should qualify as such in every Guild Wars 2 game system.
Agree with the OP and Kiryk. It’s both odd and irritating that Risen seem to lose all identity other than Risen. Is it not still a giant? A drake? A fish?
No, we need more reasons to leave Orr, not less.
I agree.
This is especially irritating at 80th level, where you are forced to teleport back to older zones to hunt for lower level variety mobs when there are already a plethora of mobs in Malchoir’s Leap, Cursed Shore, and Straits of Desolation.
Risen should count as more than one variety of monster. Whether it is a bandit, spellcaster, warrior, giant, spider, worm, spirit, etc. It’s silly that we have to go back to old zones just to do the daily.
That’s one of the points, actually.
They don’t want you to live in Orr once you attain level 80 while all the other zones become ghost towns.
Whether something is either wrong or right, someone will always complain about it.
I always just assumed it was more like faction or race, hence any kind of risen still counts as risen. It’s not necessarily illogical if you don’t start out expecting it to mean ‘body type’ or so.
Agree with the OP and Kiryk. It’s both odd and irritating that Risen seem to lose all identity other than Risen. Is it not still a giant? A drake? A fish?
No, actually. The power of the Elder Dragons’ corruption supersedes whatever else they may have been before. A charr and a human may be very different before corruption, but once they are absorbed, they are both simply Risen. Whether they end up as Risen brutes, thralls, wizards, or those bloody putrifiers… they are ALL just Risen.
If we do not differentiate between the origin of Risen creatures when speaking of human, charr, norn, asura… why would we differentiate giants, quaggans, drakes, fish? Because they have a special name? If we are separating by name, should Risen Brutes and Risen Thralls be in completely separate categories then? No.
They are all simply Risen. Both in game mechanics and in lore, this is exactly how it should be.
That’s one of the points, actually.
They don’t want you to live in Orr once you attain level 80 while all the other zones become ghost towns.
There are plenty of other reasons to leave Orr, some of which I mentioned above in a preceding post. Ignoring common sense does not need to justify another. Also, as far as I can tell, the majority of players with 80th level characters are either running dungeons, sitting in Lion’s Arch looking for groups to run dungeons, playing WvWvW, or playing alts. Your experience may be different, but from what I’ve seen there aren’t that many players that linger around in Orr anyway, once they complete the zone.
No, actually. The power of the Elder Dragons’ corruption supersedes whatever else they may have been before. A charr and a human may be very different before corruption, but once they are absorbed, they are both simply Risen. Whether they end up as Risen brutes, thralls, wizards, or those bloody putrifiers… they are ALL just Risen.
If we do not differentiate between the origin of Risen creatures when speaking of human, charr, norn, asura… why would we differentiate giants, quaggans, drakes, fish? Because they have a special name? If we are separating by name, should Risen Brutes and Risen Thralls be in completely separate categories then? No.
They are all simply Risen. Both in game mechanics and in lore, this is exactly how it should be.
So a risen giant is no longer a giant? It’s no longer giant in size or similar in any other way to a non-risen giant? I disagree. I could see your argument if, in the process of being corrupted, all lifeforms were changed such that the resulting forms were all exactly identical in appearance and behavior, but they’re not. Risen giants appear and behave differently than risen drakes. This is why they are called ‘risen giants’ and ‘risen drakes’—to differentiate between the base types. If they were all just ‘risen,’ then they would all be labeled as such.
In regards to risen brutes and risen thralls, there is less of a difference, but it’s still there. In such cases, their base types are their races—human, norn, charr, and asura—and not ‘brute’ or ‘thrall’. ‘Brute’ and ‘thrall’ are descriptors like ‘risen’. These terms primarily describe the behavior of the model. Brutes wield hammers, acolytes buff allies and immobilize enemies. You ask if they should be in separate categories. I say they are in separate categories already.
@Inaccordance sorry dude but i have to disagree with you.Why we have to be bound to stay only in level 80 zones?If Anet do what you suggest we won’t have any reason to go in lower level zones.
Right now it’s perfectly fine.We have to move around the world.We have a reason to do it.
TxS – Tequatl Slayer Alliance (EU)
I have a lvl 80 char but i am not spending my game time in Orr. I really don’t enjoy seeing all the zombies around. Too much gore. So i am just doing dailies in other zones, especially starter zone. They are fun enough. I haven’t been in Orr for week or so and really, don’t miss it.
The Risen are fine as they are. It makes sense for both lore and game mechanics, as I already explained.
They don’t need to be in separate categories simply so you can get your dailies done in Cursed Shore without having to take the two minutes and three silver to waypoint somewhere else.
Some people in the forums just disagree for the sake of disagreeing – it’s despicable.
ANet implemented Downleveling so that you can play wherever you want to – not so that you are forced to go to different areas.
Furthermore, crafting materials are zone-specific – you can’t get Orichalcum in Caledon Forest or Queensdale.
The arguments that defend the current system are pitiful.
A giant is a giant – a risen giant should still be a giant, or count as whole new race: risen giant.
A giant is a giant – a risen giant should still be a giant, or count as whole new race: risen giant.
No, it’s NOT. Why is this so hard to understand?
A whole new race? How in the world does that make sense?
It’s Risen now. It’s a servant of Zhaitan. The goals and affiliations are 100% Zhaitan, and thus it is Risen. Like I already explained, just because it’s called “Risen Giant” does not mean it should be included in a separate category. It’s Risen, just like Risen charr, Risen humans, risen drakes, quaggans, hylek, fish, eagles, and whatever else you have.
The Risen is the army of Zhaitan. It’s not just a word that means they smell bad and look like they are rotting. It’s specific affiliation according to game mechanics. It only makes sense that they should count together as one category.
So far the only reasons I’ve read for why it should be changed is because ‘they look different’ and that people think you should be able to get everything done in Orr without having to leave.
If you want to farm coin and karma, sure… stay in Orr. That’s the best place to do it. If you want to collect your top tier mats, sure, stay in Orr. That’s the only place to do it.
But if you want to get your achievements done, don’t complain about having to take the minuscule effort to go somewhere else.
So a risen giant is no longer a giant? It’s no longer giant in size or similar in any other way to a non-risen giant? I disagree. I could see your argument if, in the process of being corrupted, all lifeforms were changed such that the resulting forms were all exactly identical in appearance and behavior, but they’re not. Risen giants appear and behave differently than risen drakes. This is why they are called ‘risen giants’ and ‘risen drakes’—to differentiate between the base types. If they were all just ‘risen,’ then they would all be labeled as such.
No, it’s not just a giant. It’s Risen (proper noun) now, part of a completely coherent set of enemies that do not attack each other. It is part of THE RISEN. Emphasis on the proper noun. Everything else about them is secondary to that. That’s the whole point of this. Just like Pact, Bandits, Branded, Icebrood, and whatever other multi-species groups you have out there… what they were/are beforehand is secondary to what they are now, and that’s Risen.
In regards to risen brutes and risen thralls, there is less of a difference, but it’s still there. In such cases, their base types are their races—human, norn, charr, and asura—and not ‘brute’ or ‘thrall’. ‘Brute’ and ‘thrall’ are descriptors like ‘risen’. These terms primarily describe the behavior of the model. Brutes wield hammers, acolytes buff allies and immobilize enemies.
And Giants smash stuff with big feet, and Hylek shoot poison darts. This doesn’t mean they should be counted separate from the achievements’ Risen category. You just seconded my point.
If there is enough reason to separate a Risen Giant because it looks different, then you should separate risen Charr and Humans. If there is enough reason to separate a Risen Giant because it is named differently, then you should do the same for Risen Nobles and Thralls. They do look and act completely different, don’t they? a Risen Brute charr does not look the same as a Risen Noble human, nor does it behave the same way. Where do you draw the line with your logic?
You ask if they should be in separate categories. I say they are in separate categories already.
No, I was asking if they should be counted separately towards the variety achievement like you want Risen Giants to be. Right now they don’t, and should not.
Affiliation is irrelevant. We’re talking about races.
A risen giant is a risen, but also a giant.
They fight like giants with a risen twist, are killed like giants with a risen twist.
Same deal with other risen races. Risen races. Get it?
And all this technical talk is needless.
This thread is about doing what ANet said they wanted you to do: play wherever you want.
They made downleveling.
But then they force you to get out of Orr to complete daily?
People like you pollute threads needlessly for the sake of discussing technical bullkitten, when the goal is something as simple as not getting screwed out of daily achievements just because you’re in an Orr zone.
Other zones do not have this issue.
I sincerely hope that ArenaNet is not using the Risen identifier as a means to cause movement, because such an arbitrary decision (in my opinion) hurts the setting.
That being said, there are plenty of reasons to leave Orr:
1. Zone completion achievement.
2. Traveling to and from Dungeons.
3. Assisting guildies/friends.
4. Farming crafting materials.
5. Jumping Puzzles.
6. Completing the zone quest chain if you missed it the first go around.
7. Killing Champions that you didn’t get around to the first time.
8. Karma Vendors.
It’s simple. “Kill Variety” implies that you have to kill various types of monsters. In name, in ability, and in difficulty there is a HUGE variety of monsters in Orr. Spellcasters, beasts, warriors, giants, fish, etc. all looped into one monster type as “Risen” makes no sense. It is either a glitch in the system or an arbitrary measure to ensure that level 80 characters don’t stay in a level 80 zone.
PS- Counciler.7438 you made your point, you disagree. Quit trolling the thread. You believe that all Risen are the same monster, the rest of us believe that monsters being Risen shouldn’t isolate them to one variety of mob.
(edited by Kiryk.5482)
@Inaccordance sorry dude but i have to disagree with you.Why we have to be bound to stay only in level 80 zones?
Let me flip that around for you: Why don’t I have the option of staying in the endgame zones if that’s what I choose to do? You’re entitled to your opinion but then so am I. I say the game leads me to Orr, and that being the case I find it odd that I cannot accomplish my goals in Orr.
We can argue our interpretations of what it means to be Risen all day but I think the issue is much simpler. I say it’s a simple oversight that the entire spectrum of Risen things, be it drake, chicken, or giant, count only as Risen and not as a drake, chicken, or giant.
I can see how I confused some of you by my initial post where I do indeed seem to plant the idea that achievements are my goal. My intention was to use the achievement system to illustrate the discrepancy I see with the classification system as it stands in the game. This is especially apparent when we consider dragon-affected, mobs, such as risen, but it’s not exclusive to them, as Counciler pointed out.
The issue exists throughout the game. This is the problem. There is no consistency in the classification methodologies for mobs. Irrespective of species, risen, bandits, and the like, all count as one type. A human risen is not human, but risen. A human bandit is not human, but a bandit. At the same time, the classifications drake, hylek, krait, giant, and so on, are respective to species. This represents an inconsistency in the classification system.
Is it really tha hard to leave Orr for less than 10 mins? Are you really that lazy? I cant see how a 10 min break from farming Orr is going to break your ingame wallet and if its your pride then you have some serious issues .
I’m not positive but at some point it was counting it like that.
Couple ago it changed, i dont know why to be fair.
The issue exists throughout the game. This is the problem. There is no consistency in the classification methodologies for mobs. Irrespective of species, risen, bandits, and the like, all count as one type. A human risen is not human, but risen. A human bandit is not human, but a bandit. At the same time, the classifications drake, hylek, krait, giant, and so on, are respective to species. This represents an inconsistency in the classification system.
This I can agree with. There needs to be a more consistent way of classifying mobs.
Also, sorry if I came off rough, but I found it silly that Risen anything should be classified or counted differently than any other Risen. I personally consider them all part of the same group, and I think it fits the lore of the game to have only Risen in the heart of Zhaitan’s territory. If it weren’t for that, I’d suggest adding other groups that aren’t Risen at all.
Perhaps more Inquest, Nightmare court, etc? They might be evil too, but they have just as much reason to fight Zhaitan.
it is being consistent . a bandit a pirate and a risen are all part of a collective group therefore they counted as part of said collective . A Hylek ,Drake or or Krait are not .