Guild Wars 2

It’s striking how much longer guild-leaders’ posts are than the average poster.

I wonder if that reveals anything about their nature?

Something that comes to mind is that when a game launches, you don’t know if it’s going to flourish or not. Same thing with a guild at the start of a game.

If a guild is mostly composed of hoppers or multi-representers, it’s prob’ly not going to stand the test of time. I think that’s ok.

There’s a lot of guilds that could stand to be pruned to let the community grow stronger.

Edge.4180:

Vlaxitov.5693:

Edge.4180:

Vlaxitov.5693:

Edge.4180:

I just can’t ignore the harm it has done to the guild I’m in, which has always been on the small side, but in other games we always stuck together. Now, if there aren’t enough members logged in at the same time everyone seems to toggle over to different guilds, which only makes the problem worse as other members log in and find the majority of their online guildmates representing elsewhere.

What is the problem exactly, that guilds don’t have the ability to force players to stay and basically be an employee during times they aren’t enjoying themselves? If someone is representing elsewhere its because they are having fun elsewhere and you’re going to begrudge that over what that player isn’t doing for you?

I think its beautiful that this system has reduced mmo monarchs or hierarchies to being mmo politicians and that this change is long overdue.

Because it’s supposed to be a guild or a family that you stick with through good and tough times and help improve, not a club or bar you may or may not choose to visit depending on how happening things are on a given night. If you want the latter, ask for a tool creating a temporary throw-away chat channel, since that appears to be all you’re looking for.

I like how you made up this imaginary desire of mine that all I’m looking for is a throw a way chat channel. All I want from a guild is fun comradery. Then you basically say that people are supposed to stay in a guild through “tough times.” (aka obligated to not have fun in a video game for the greater good)

What I really see is that some people who are used to having power and ruling over others in previous mmos are mad that they don’t have that power anymore and don’t know what to do because now they have to actually be fun to play with and or provide a fun environment for people to stay.

Aren’t you, at the same time, making up this imaginary scenario where I’m somehow “ruling over others” rather than just being a loyal member of a guild who happens to not be blind to the damage the current system is causing to said guild? You’re a bit quick on the assumptions.

You say “All I want from a guild is fun comradery”. I suggested a customizable chat channel that you can fill with people who have similar interests. How is that not satisfying your request?

Look, I get it.. you just want to go where the fun is. But the truth is guilds can have upsides and downsides. And if everyone just floats around to wherever the fun is at any given moment, guild communities won’t survive long term, especially smaller guilds. And, believe it or not, not everyone likes huge guilds.

Why no, I’m not making the same assumption because I didn’t say “you” were mad about it it rather than saying I think “some people.” You directly said “appears to be all you’re looking for.” Why is does debating a point with anyone online ALWAYS have to include someone misconstruing what another types when the evidence is right there for all to see?

I’m in a small guild so understand all too well that not everyone likes huge guilds. I love how you say “I get it, you just wanna go where the fun is.” I could just as easily say I get it, you’re just asking Anet to provide incentive to keep players in a guild up and over those guildies being fun to play with.

I’m not saying you don’t stick with people you like to play with through good times or bad whatever that means. I’m saying as someone who has played mmos for a long time that alot of us have seen our fair share of people staying in guilds they don’t like and playing with people they don’t like because those people have something to offer or better put are in control of something other than themselves being fun to play with let alone being respectful.

In othewords, you don’t have to put up with some disrespectful tyrant leader or officer in a guild because your raid, bonuses, or character progression depends on it. I don’t know why you have a problem with that.

As a member of Gaiscioch, we need 2 guilds to keep up with all the people that have come from the various games that we’ve had guilds in, and for new peopel who join from gw2. Until they either work otu how to remove the member limit without invite bugging out, or give us guild alliances, the second guild allows us to move people into the other guild, ro create new ones, as circumstances require.

I can definitly understand why people dont like the multi guild system, and i have nothing against their reasoning. Some people will always prefer their members to be in one guild, while others will be more flexible when it comes to multi guilding.

In the end, if having your members of your guild not be members of multiple guilds is a requirement, make them agree to said requirement when joining. That way everyone is happy, you get your giuild of single guild members, and everyone else is free to join multiple guilds if they decide to.

The big problem with your original post is the fact that due to the way the guild is laid out, most times people don’t know you or your rank in the guild…..you want attention as the guild leader.

What I say next goes for every guild and all of the situations you talk about.

This is why you do not mass recruit anyone at any time for any reason just to bolster numbers.

I have a small guild consisting of 40 members. At any given time we have 10~13 players online and active, all representing.

Most of these 400+ guilds have very few people actually representing and participating in the guild.

To them, it’s just numbers.

You need to A: invite people who genuinely want to be a part of the guild, or B: join a well respected, known guild.

Mass recruiting, regardless of what game it is, gives you this “destruction.” I’ve seen it in every game. Mass recruiting is a plague.

Tzash.5748:

Jezath.7395:

I dissagree with you here Tzash. I feel that the social problems are compounded by the very design of the multi guild system as it stands. It at thevery least needs tweaking in some way. check my post back along and u will c my ideas for it.

I’ve read your post and I’m still not seeing how it is a mechanics problem. If you have a guild requirement that members represent your guild and then some don’t want to then surely that indicates that they weren’t suitable for your guild in the first place.

It’s simple. They want to force everyone to be like them. Apparently already requiring memebers to represent isn’t enough for them. They don’t seem to understand that you can’t force the retaining of members. Instead of fixing the actual problem they’ll piss and moan about something irrelevant.

Mkalafut.1273:

MrsAngelD.6971:

Mkalafut.1273:

MrsAngelD.6971:

It’s a small application in which I ask a few basic questions and they must agree to our code of conduct. But if they can’t be bothered with filling out our application then I probably don’t want them in the guild anyway.

I feel so strongly about the text I quoted. You’d be surprised (or maybe you won’t be.) at the response I get sometimes when I tell people they need to go to a website and fill out a Q/A / Application and read rules before they join.

What? I have to go to a WEBSITE to join your guild? I have to read? I have to apply? Screw that, too much work I’m not looking for a job. <—responses I get.

Oh I’m not surprised at all. I’ve received lot’s of responses like that, but for me the trade off is worth it. The people who have filled out applications have been great and I’ve met a lot of good folks.

Agreed. Delayed gratification > instant. I’d much rather have someone go through the proper protocals and actually show the initial effort than someone who won’t bother taking 5 minutes out of his life to do so.

Then why are you kittening about the multi-guild system? You didn’t want the members anyways since they aren’t representing your guild 100% and/or don’t want to put in the effort for an application…so why are you trying to force everyone else to adhere to the way your guild runs? It seems like it makes your job really easy if they don’t want to do the application nor be in only one guild you can boot them/not invite. I’m not seeing the problem here. You can be happy knowing your members want to be in your guild and the rest of us can be in any guild we like. So what’s the problem?

Edge.4180:

Vlaxitov.5693:

Edge.4180:

I just can’t ignore the harm it has done to the guild I’m in, which has always been on the small side, but in other games we always stuck together. Now, if there aren’t enough members logged in at the same time everyone seems to toggle over to different guilds, which only makes the problem worse as other members log in and find the majority of their online guildmates representing elsewhere.

What is the problem exactly, that guilds don’t have the ability to force players to stay and basically be an employee during times they aren’t enjoying themselves? If someone is representing elsewhere its because they are having fun elsewhere and you’re going to begrudge that over what that player isn’t doing for you?

I think its beautiful that this system has reduced mmo monarchs or hierarchies to being mmo politicians and that this change is long overdue.

Because it’s supposed to be a guild or a family that you stick with through good and tough times and help improve, not a club or bar you may or may not choose to visit depending on how happening things are on a given night. If you want the latter, ask for a tool creating a temporary throw-away chat channel, since that appears to be all you’re looking for.

I’m married. I have 2 sets of family that are “blood related” and one family that I have by choice. So yeah count them I HAVE 3 families! My kids have 3 sets of grandparents. I love them ALL the same. You can have more than one “family” or “friends” and still be just as loyal to them. I really don’t get this kind of logic at all.

Vlaxitov.5693:

Why no, I’m not making the same assumption because I didn’t say “you” were mad about it it rather than saying I think “some people.” You directly said “appears to be all you’re looking for.” Why is does debating a point with anyone online ALWAYS have to include someone misconstruing what another types when the evidence is right there for all to see?

I’m in a small guild so understand all too well that not everyone likes huge guilds. I love how you say “I get it, you just wanna go where the fun is.” I could just as easily say I get it, you’re just asking Anet to provide incentive to keep players in a guild up and over those guildies being fun to play with..

The problem is the type of “fun” you’re advocating, to basically go wherever the party of the moment is, comes at the expense of others hard work. Some people put a great deal of effort into supporting and/or managing a guild. “Members” coming and going at will undermines that. Your fun is coming at the expense of someone elses.

If I say “look, I get it.. you just want to go where the fun is” and suggest you “ask for a tool creating a temporary throw-away chat channel, since that appears to be all you’re looking for”, it’s because that’s the picture you’re painting. I’m just reiterating what you yourself are saying. If you want to leave me with a different impression then paint a different picture.

I’ll try to put this as simply as possible. Without the multi-guild system, if a guild has elements that are not to your liking (example, not enough dungeon activity) your choices were a) quit that guild and join another, b) remain in the guild and be part of the problem, c) remain in the guild and become part of the solution to correct the problem. But with the multi-guild system there’s almost no incentive for anyone to correct the problems.. you can just temporarily mooch off guild-A for PvP, guild-B for PvE, and hang with guild-C when you want to be social.

Maybe larger guilds can get away with that kind of a setup (and that is really only until most people start to do it), but for smaller guilds that’s a recipe for disaster. When you’re in a guild with 20 or so members you really start to feel it when people temporarily remove themselves from the guild. These are the same people who, in other games, stuck with the guild through the slow times because 1) they were happy most of the time and 2) didn’t want to leave the guild. But now they don’t have to quit, they can just hop around from guild to guild. It’s like being in a guild where most of your members aren’t ever logging in, when in reality they’re actually on all the time. At some point it becomes hard to tell the difference between the two.

At a bare minimum, guild leaders should have the option of closing what is currently the proverbial two way door to their club house. They should have the option of whether or not they want that button labeled “unrepresent guild” or “quit your guild” with a warning that the action will remove their access completely. Because some guild leaders do not want members who come and go based on the way the wind is blowing. And you, as someone who does want to hop around, always have the option of not joining guilds that opt out of the multi-guild system.

Now, if you’re afraid that most guilds would choose to opt out instead of in.. then make your own guild and opt in instead. Put a little effort behind all that fun you expect to have.

fizzypop.6458:

Edge.4180:

Vlaxitov.5693:

Edge.4180:

I just can’t ignore the harm it has done to the guild I’m in, which has always been on the small side, but in other games we always stuck together. Now, if there aren’t enough members logged in at the same time everyone seems to toggle over to different guilds, which only makes the problem worse as other members log in and find the majority of their online guildmates representing elsewhere.

What is the problem exactly, that guilds don’t have the ability to force players to stay and basically be an employee during times they aren’t enjoying themselves? If someone is representing elsewhere its because they are having fun elsewhere and you’re going to begrudge that over what that player isn’t doing for you?

I think its beautiful that this system has reduced mmo monarchs or hierarchies to being mmo politicians and that this change is long overdue.

Because it’s supposed to be a guild or a family that you stick with through good and tough times and help improve, not a club or bar you may or may not choose to visit depending on how happening things are on a given night. If you want the latter, ask for a tool creating a temporary throw-away chat channel, since that appears to be all you’re looking for.

I’m married. I have 2 sets of family that are “blood related” and one family that I have by choice. So yeah count them I HAVE 3 families! My kids have 3 sets of grandparents. I love them ALL the same. You can have more than one “family” or “friends” and still be just as loyal to them. I really don’t get this kind of logic at all.

I’m sorry, but that’s just a ridiculous analogy. First of all, most people (I hope) don’t spend all day logged into GW2 spreading the love between the multiple guilds they’re representing.

I see members that represent my guild maybe an hour a week, if that. If you’re going to make analogies like this, maybe you should try that out in real life and see how far that gets you with your family? I don’t recommend it, though. I’m pretty sure they’ll start complaining after a while too.

Last posts are really focusing too much on the moral aspect of belonging to a guild, and extreme behaviours that we can come across in-game, rather than the realistic, practical, aspect of leading a guild, organizing events, and making everyone participate in something shared, something common.

Maybe there are guild leaders with god complex who just like to rule over people. Maybe there are members that are no more than freeloaders who are just here to take advantage of what other people put time and effort to create.

But seriously : stop with the clichés. Try to stay on topic, which is how multi guild system may prevent players from creating a strong, united group, and what can we do, with in-game but also external tools, to encourage the feeling that you belong in the guild you are with (and I’ve read pretty awesome suggestion on this thread, so it would be nice to pursue efforts in this way).

Edge.4180:

fizzypop.6458:

Edge.4180:

Vlaxitov.5693:

Edge.4180:

I just can’t ignore the harm it has done to the guild I’m in, which has always been on the small side, but in other games we always stuck together. Now, if there aren’t enough members logged in at the same time everyone seems to toggle over to different guilds, which only makes the problem worse as other members log in and find the majority of their online guildmates representing elsewhere.

What is the problem exactly, that guilds don’t have the ability to force players to stay and basically be an employee during times they aren’t enjoying themselves? If someone is representing elsewhere its because they are having fun elsewhere and you’re going to begrudge that over what that player isn’t doing for you?

I think its beautiful that this system has reduced mmo monarchs or hierarchies to being mmo politicians and that this change is long overdue.

Because it’s supposed to be a guild or a family that you stick with through good and tough times and help improve, not a club or bar you may or may not choose to visit depending on how happening things are on a given night. If you want the latter, ask for a tool creating a temporary throw-away chat channel, since that appears to be all you’re looking for.

I’m married. I have 2 sets of family that are “blood related” and one family that I have by choice. So yeah count them I HAVE 3 families! My kids have 3 sets of grandparents. I love them ALL the same. You can have more than one “family” or “friends” and still be just as loyal to them. I really don’t get this kind of logic at all.

I’m sorry, but that’s just a ridiculous analogy. First of all, most people (I hope) don’t spend all day logged into GW2 spreading the love between the multiple guilds they’re representing.

I see members that represent my guild maybe an hour a week, if that. If you’re going to make analogies like this, maybe you should try that out in real life and see how far that gets you with your family? I don’t recommend it, though. I’m pretty sure they’ll start complaining after a while too.

Um, you are the one that called it a family dear. I didn’t. I was only using your position against you. I was merely saying in IRL I sure don’t limit myself to one family. So why must I for a video game? Where is your stats showing that people don’t do that? I do. I do it all the time. Because you don’t do it doesn’t mean others don’t. Nor can you show me that even the majority only represent for an hour a week since I doubt you are following people for an entire week.

Please I don’t even call my own mother every day of the week and yet she isn’t here kittening about how I shouldn’t have other friends or family. Last week? My husband was away on a business trip…I talked to him only once a night for an hour. Funny enough it works out in real life.

Johnson.3874:

Last posts are really focusing too much on the moral aspect of belonging to a guild, and extreme behaviours that we can come across in-game, rather than the realistic, practical, aspect of leading a guild, organizing events, and making everyone participate in something shared, something common.

Maybe there are guild leaders with god complex who just like to rule over people. Maybe there are members that are no more than freeloaders who are just here to take advantage of what other people put time and effort to create.

But seriously : stop with the clichés. Try to stay on topic, which is how multi guild system may prevent players from creating a strong, united group, and what can we do, with in-game but also external tools, to encourage the feeling that you belong in the guild you are with (and I’ve read pretty awesome suggestion on this thread, so it would be nice to pursue efforts in this way).

If that’s the topic of this post then even the OP isn’t on topic. I think you may have missed this part "In any case I’d love to hear what everyone on the forums thinks of the multi-guild system and whether or not you think it’s harmful to guild longevity or functionality. " His entire post was about how he feels that having multi-guilds as an option is hurting his guild. There are those who believe it is harmful and those that don’t. We are both encouraged to give our opinion.

fizzypop.6458:

Johnson.3874:

Last posts are really focusing too much on the moral aspect of belonging to a guild, and extreme behaviours that we can come across in-game, rather than the realistic, practical, aspect of leading a guild, organizing events, and making everyone participate in something shared, something common.

Maybe there are guild leaders with god complex who just like to rule over people. Maybe there are members that are no more than freeloaders who are just here to take advantage of what other people put time and effort to create.

But seriously : stop with the clichés. Try to stay on topic, which is how multi guild system may prevent players from creating a strong, united group, and what can we do, with in-game but also external tools, to encourage the feeling that you belong in the guild you are with (and I’ve read pretty awesome suggestion on this thread, so it would be nice to pursue efforts in this way).

If that’s the topic of this post then even the OP isn’t on topic. I think you may have missed this part "In any case I’d love to hear what everyone on the forums thinks of the multi-guild system and whether or not you think it’s harmful to guild longevity or functionality. " His entire post was about how he feels that having multi-guilds as an option is hurting his guild. There are those who believe it is harmful and those that don’t. We are both encouraged to give our opinion.

I agree with this.

However, that said, I agree with the OP that, in terms of small guilds, that it isn’t working out well. Even with strict and stringent recruitment policies, very few small guilds can grow decently, and unles syou adopt a GOTTA CATCH EM ALL practice, small guilds are still hurt by the multi-guild system, because it doesn’t foster any sense of loyalty. At least in games with ONE guild (per character) system, yoiu were in that guild, could see if you liked it, and it didn’t suit both parties, you left.

ANd if it did suit you, you put forth effort and care in building it toward the direction the ‘guild’ deemed suitable.

GW2 just doesn’t foster that, it caters, as someone said, to the guild hoppers, and ego-centric troublemakers who don’t give a flying fig.

fizzypop.6458:

Um, you are the one that called it a family dear. I didn’t. I was only using your position against you.

In other words, you were just trying to cause trouble. Because I really shouldn’t have to waste time clarifying to you the difference between the usage of the word family when talking about RL relatives versus using the term to describe a guild in a video game. You can correctly use the term family in either case, but you’d be pretty silly to try and draw comparisons between the two (as you have done, apparently just to strike up an argument).

Good luck with that, but you’re going to have to spend that free time of yours finding someone else to pick a fight with today. :P

teviko.6049:

fizzypop.6458:

Johnson.3874:

Last posts are really focusing too much on the moral aspect of belonging to a guild, and extreme behaviours that we can come across in-game, rather than the realistic, practical, aspect of leading a guild, organizing events, and making everyone participate in something shared, something common.

Maybe there are guild leaders with god complex who just like to rule over people. Maybe there are members that are no more than freeloaders who are just here to take advantage of what other people put time and effort to create.

But seriously : stop with the clichés. Try to stay on topic, which is how multi guild system may prevent players from creating a strong, united group, and what can we do, with in-game but also external tools, to encourage the feeling that you belong in the guild you are with (and I’ve read pretty awesome suggestion on this thread, so it would be nice to pursue efforts in this way).

If that’s the topic of this post then even the OP isn’t on topic. I think you may have missed this part "In any case I’d love to hear what everyone on the forums thinks of the multi-guild system and whether or not you think it’s harmful to guild longevity or functionality. " His entire post was about how he feels that having multi-guilds as an option is hurting his guild. There are those who believe it is harmful and those that don’t. We are both encouraged to give our opinion.

I agree with this.

However, that said, I agree with the OP that, in terms of small guilds, that it isn’t working out well. Even with strict and stringent recruitment policies, very few small guilds can grow decently, and unles syou adopt a GOTTA CATCH EM ALL practice, small guilds are still hurt by the multi-guild system, because it doesn’t foster any sense of loyalty. At least in games with ONE guild (per character) system, yoiu were in that guild, could see if you liked it, and it didn’t suit both parties, you left.

ANd if it did suit you, you put forth effort and care in building it toward the direction the ‘guild’ deemed suitable.

GW2 just doesn’t foster that, it caters, as someone said, to the guild hoppers, and ego-centric troublemakers who don’t give a flying fig.

Why does a guild NEED tons of members? I have a small close knit guild. The only way into the guild is to know someone and a good portion of us know each other IRL. We don’t force representing. During prime time I think we end up with about 8-10 out of 15 on our list. Who is to say our guild isn’t doing well? We don’t need growth or want it. Why do you need 50 members? Why do you even need more than 10-20 online at a given time? What exactly do you want your members to do? Chat more? Play together more? Represent more? Why not focus on fixing those inside of your guild first? If you want them to chat more…then guild leaders and officers NEED to be chatting all the time. People often don’t feel comfortable if there isn’t a good conversation going on already. So that means you gotta get good officers and leaders willing to put in the time to yes create conversations. If you want people to play together then how about officers start organizing groups? Call out people directly that are online and ask them if they want to join you for X. Represent? well people already are requiring players to represent them 100% of the time or the majority of the time. So not much more you can do there. Guilds aren’t going to become awesome if you don’t already have a good foundation. If anything the biggest problem with the guild system is that its easy as crap to create one. If it costed more to create people would think twice before starting one and they’d have a solid foundation before bothering.

And in other mmos you could easily split your time among 2 guilds. You just had to have an alt. What is the difference? No one has been able to explain this to me yet. I was in 2 guilds in wow for 5 years overlapping. Not one cared that I was in another guild. I kept my commitments in each one. Why do gamers suddenly care now?

Edge.4180:

fizzypop.6458:

Um, you are the one that called it a family dear. I didn’t. I was only using your position against you.

In other words, you were just trying to cause trouble. Because I really shouldn’t have to waste time clarifying to you the difference between the usage of the word family when talking about RL relatives versus using the term to describe a guild in a video game. You can correctly use the term family in either case, but you’d be pretty silly to try and draw comparisons between the two (as you have done, apparently just to strike up an argument).

Good luck with that, but you’re going to have to spend that free time of yours finding someone else to pick a fight with today. :P

I didn’t know debating was causing trouble? If you didn’t want to compare your guild to a family then why did you? Also are you actually going to answer my previous question?

Okay if you say so, but if you don’t want to converse with others that may not agree with you I suggest that you not post in a thread where people are encouraged to do just that.

not pointless.. different guilds focus on different things wvw or pve

exum.3746:

not pointless.. different guilds focus on different things wvw or pve

What I’m getting is that guilds should spread themselves thin trying to offer everything. Not too sure that’ll work out.

NoOneShotU.3479:

Adine.2184:

teviko.6049:

NOTE: One thing that bothers me about many an MMO is that somehow it’s become the ‘leaders’ job to organize everything, to make up special olympics for the ‘socially impaired’.

Who actually expects this? i sure dont . The biggest organizational effort our alliance did was district hosting for Canthan New Year in GW1 but that was a combined effort in farming stuff organizing who was going to be hosting at what hour and getting the word out on what districts we were hosting . When it comes to stuff like dungeons people would never get it done if they expected the guild leader to do it .

you need it to build rapport.

You need to encourage people to help each other so you aren’t always the link in the chain and this game feels like “hang on got to go to my 2nd job tonight”.

your quoting the wrong person here .I agree 100% and even said that Officers /Leaders need to build a rapport in a previous post of mine . I can tell you right now i would throw myself in front of a bus for the guild leader of my main guild and im not just saying that either .Organization brings members in rapport keeps them .

FFXI has survived 8 or 9 years now with what is basically the multi-guild system (called Linkshells). Heck, FFXI’s were sort of worse since each on you were a part of took up an inventory space and had to be equipped (much like choosing who to represent in GW2). The system worked very well for many people especially as the number of events increased over the years.

Game title Guild Wars 2 but well more like it should have been Players Vs Botters Wars

fizzypop.6458:

Mkalafut.1273:

MrsAngelD.6971:

Mkalafut.1273:

MrsAngelD.6971:

It’s a small application in which I ask a few basic questions and they must agree to our code of conduct. But if they can’t be bothered with filling out our application then I probably don’t want them in the guild anyway.

I feel so strongly about the text I quoted. You’d be surprised (or maybe you won’t be.) at the response I get sometimes when I tell people they need to go to a website and fill out a Q/A / Application and read rules before they join.

What? I have to go to a WEBSITE to join your guild? I have to read? I have to apply? Screw that, too much work I’m not looking for a job. <—responses I get.

Oh I’m not surprised at all. I’ve received lot’s of responses like that, but for me the trade off is worth it. The people who have filled out applications have been great and I’ve met a lot of good folks.

Agreed. Delayed gratification > instant. I’d much rather have someone go through the proper protocals and actually show the initial effort than someone who won’t bother taking 5 minutes out of his life to do so.

Then why are you kittening about the multi-guild system? You didn’t want the members anyways since they aren’t representing your guild 100% and/or don’t want to put in the effort for an application…so why are you trying to force everyone else to adhere to the way your guild runs? It seems like it makes your job really easy if they don’t want to do the application nor be in only one guild you can boot them/not invite. I’m not seeing the problem here. You can be happy knowing your members want to be in your guild and the rest of us can be in any guild we like. So what’s the problem?

I don’t know if my quote was accidentally included in this, but if you go back and look at my OP in this thread, I have no problem with multi-guilding and I’m the proud guild leader of an 80+ member guild that has a healthy active community.

If booting un-loyal players is too prohibitive because of guild size or whatever or too rough, then create a suspension or demoted rank to place them in until they bow down to guild master god leader. Just throwing the option out there. If having multi-guilds is destructive to your guild, disallow it or limit it. A possible solution to those guild hopping guildies. Preliminary ranks also work for newly added members.

fizzypop.6458:

If that’s the topic of this post then even the OP isn’t on topic. I think you may have missed this part "In any case I’d love to hear what everyone on the forums thinks of the multi-guild system and whether or not you think it’s harmful to guild longevity or functionality. " His entire post was about how he feels that having multi-guilds as an option is hurting his guild. There are those who believe it is harmful and those that don’t. We are both encouraged to give our opinion.

There is a difference between giving your opinion and making assumptions/prejudices about what other people are saying, or dragging irrelevant remarks on the subject (that thing about family ? Not even closely related. (haha, pun unintended)).
Anyway, seeing how the last two people you quoted have corrected the way you understood their message, I don’t even have to elaborate on the subject.

Cheers.

Just wanted to remind people to please stay on topic and not attack each other – that won’t solve a thing. And to those who come in late and accuse me of whining or otherwise, just know that this is, once again, not about my guild specifically or any one guild.

Everything I’ve brought up has either been an issue discussed with other guild leaders, guild members, and ex guild members of my guild among several other guilds doing their own thing.

In the original post I expressed how I felt about it and how I feel that it’s a bad idea and basically making guilds pointless and meaningless (it’s part of it – I also realize there’s little incentive to be in a guild including but not limited to the multi-guild system and lack of activities that really require or encourage guild membership).

The original post also stated that I am looking to hear from people who like the system as well as hate it, but please keep the discussions civil. You know my stance on it – I hate it. But I’d love to see why there are those who enjoy it aside from the typical guild hopper type and aside from the obvious benefit of being in 3 separate guilds for friends, pvp, and pve.

Thank you.

IF they make it so that guilds are not account-wide, then I wouldn’t mind losing the multi-guild system.

But as long as guilds are an account based thing, I simply cannot support a change like this. I do not want every character I have to be forced into one guild and only one guild, at some point I want at least one of my Charr characters to join a Warband RP guild, my Asura possibly to join a krewe RP guild, ect.

Seems to be that some people who like multi-guilds want guilds to be a means to an end (with specific guilds for dungeons, WvW etc), while the ones who agree with the OP seem to value the guild more as an end in itself.

Some people are naturally more goal oriented, some are more socially oriented.

Edit: Edge’s solution about allowing guilds to choose to make themselves exclusive (optionally removing the stand down button at the leaders discretion) makes more sense than removing the multi-guild system.

I agree with the posters who say that the guilds that want to have members only represent their guild should just enforce that rule, without drama, and anyone who doesn’t like it can join other goal-oriented guilds.

I think guilds are becoming obsolete. This game allows for auto-grouping, which I think works very well. I love being in a zone with an event, players come in to assist, and those who participate all get a reward. Multi-guilding means I can play one day with a group who is more PvP-centric, the next more casual. Its fun for me, and allows for freedom of choice. And I no longer have to worry about a guild disbanding or getting too low in number to group. Not when I have 3 or 4 to choose from.

To me its much more efficient, especially in a game like this. And I really don’t have the time or patience to deal with “guild loyalty”. This isn’t a job, its a game. My entertainment hours are spent doing what I want, not doing what my guildmaster expects.

My 2 c

Anyways. Tell it to ArenaNet, players! We want moar for guild features and systems and options in the game! Good suggestion posts by some of the posters by the way. Let multi-guilding not divide our guilds if that may be possible!

Mkalafut.1273:

Rukia.4802:

I’ve been in the same guild for months, still don’t know who the leader is lmao.

Thank you for that post. You’re exactly what we’ve been talking about. And the fact that you “lmao” just shows how a ton of other players with a similar mind set think as well.

I was hinting that it’s a joke, I agree with your OP so calm down big boy, kay?

A multi-guild system does indeed give more power to the individual. They can use representation as a way of indicating that a certain guild is meeting their needs at that point in time. So they can represent their PvP guild when PvP’ing, their social guild when they just want to chat etc.

This does not lessen the value of a guild. What it does mean is that you need to look at the needs of your members and address them. If a member is always happy with your guild then they will never feel the need to represent another. If they are representing another guild then ask them why and see if you can address what they feel they are missing in your guild. If you can’t meet their needs then maybe its time for them to move on.

I can definitely see how the above might be uncomfortable for guild leaders, but in many ways it reflects real life.

Tzash.5748:

A multi-guild system does indeed give more power to the individual. They can use representation as a way of indicating that a certain guild is meeting their needs at that point in time. So they can represent their PvP guild when PvP’ing, their social guild when they just want to chat etc.

This does not lessen the value of a guild. What it does mean is that you need to look at the needs of your members and address them. If a member is always happy with your guild then they will never feel the need to represent another. If they are representing another guild then ask them why and see if you can address what they feel they are missing in your guild. If you can’t meet their needs then maybe its time for them to move on.

I can definitely see how the above might be uncomfortable for guild leaders, but in many ways it reflects real life.

Yes, because in Real life, my boss is terrifed if I threaten to leave my job, and he will get down on his hands and knees and do whatever it takes to make sure I stay where I am. He’ll offer me a raise, a bigger health benefit, dental, and a bigger bonus that Lois at register 2…

Get real. Wanna campare this to real life???

Then guilds are like clubs, where exclusitivity (like a TRUE gentlemans club) where members buy in, and are loyal because if they are not, they lose their status in society if they are…removed for any reason.

This multi-guild system is more like kids going: “If you don’t give me your candy bar, we aren’t friends anymore!” And the GL (erm, kid who has the candy) is FORCED? to hand over his candy bar

Uhm, no thanks.

I would prefer that Anet had kept the guild alliance system present in GW1. It worked.

We have a thriving (multi-game) guild. This multi-guild idea is new to us, and we’re trying to work within the given parameters but still stay true to our own SOP. At the moment, that means we treat other guilds we share members with (and there are only a couple) as allies.

teviko.6049:

Yes, because in Real life, my boss is terrifed if I threaten to leave my job, and he will get down on his hands and knees and do whatever it takes to make sure I stay where I am. He’ll offer me a raise, a bigger health benefit, dental, and a bigger bonus that Lois at register 2…

Get real. Wanna campare this to real life???

Then guilds are like clubs, where exclusitivity (like a TRUE gentlemans club) where members buy in, and are loyal because if they are not, they lose their status in society if they are…removed for any reason.

This multi-guild system is more like kids going: “If you don’t give me your candy bar, we aren’t friends anymore!” And the GL (erm, kid who has the candy) is FORCED? to hand over his candy bar

Uhm, no thanks.

I was referring more to social/sporting clubs. With a social club you join for a specific purpose and when it no longer meets your requirements you leave.

As for your “forced” example, its quite ironic that in a single guild system the situation is often completely reversed. A member is forced to do everything the leader demands or face being kicked out.

The multi guild system serves more for larger guilds to be able to organize large amounts of players or even mergers of smaller guilds so this way you can have guildies to party with. Restricting it to one guild can limit your gaming experience things such as being a part of an inactive guild or a guild where only the same people group up not leaving much room for participation.

Also your first point really is a bad argument. how cna someone not know who you are when u create and alt? your character has a tag that follows you with what ever guild you have and u can choose to rep your guild right off the bat, where as games such as wow for example your alts would never be displayed to ur current guilds and you would have to whisper for an invite. your other points with members not representing, why would you keep them in your guild anyways if they are not going ot be team players? and your next point with the rude comments once again why would you keep them in your guild or even want to do group events with them if they have a bad attitude. Your multi guild argument seems more of a personal detest for the feature then an actual flaw for the game.

Some things that could work to help keep members loyal is that when they represent their “rank”( some kind of feature that represents individual player activity in a guild) will go up and give access to exclusive guild feature and services, such as discount repairs, discount merchants, heck maybe even an internal guild trader like the black lion which gives the ability for people to sell soulbound items to other guild members. Maybe things such as guild armor, basically custom armor designed by the guild leader and officers and voted upon by guild members and this way it makes the guild more distinctive. As your rank goes up with the guild this allows you to access these, but if you choose rank up with another guild your standing with other guilds will go down since you dont represent your guild.

Cinic.6184:

The multi guild system serves more for larger guilds to be able to organize large amounts of players or even mergers of smaller guilds so this way you can have guildies to party with. Restricting it to one guild can limit your gaming experience things such as being a part of an inactive guild or a guild where only the same people group up not leaving much room for participation.

Also your first point really is a bad argument. how cna someone not know who you are when u create and alt? your character has a tag that follows you with what ever guild you have and u can choose to rep your guild right off the bat, where as games such as wow for example your alts would never be displayed to ur current guilds and you would have to whisper for an invite. your other points with members not representing, why would you keep them in your guild anyways if they are not going ot be team players? and your next point with the rude comments once again why would you keep them in your guild or even want to do group events with them if they have a bad attitude. Your multi guild argument seems more of a personal detest for the feature then an actual flaw for the game.

Some things that could work to help keep members loyal is that when they represent their “rank”( some kind of feature that represents individual player activity in a guild) will go up and give access to exclusive guild feature and services, such as discount repairs, discount merchants, heck maybe even an internal guild trader like the black lion which gives the ability for people to sell soulbound items to other guild members. Maybe things such as guild armor, basically custom armor designed by the guild leader and officers and voted upon by guild members and this way it makes the guild more distinctive. As your rank goes up with the guild this allows you to access these, but if you choose rank up with another guild your standing with other guilds will go down since you dont represent your guild.

Not sure if you read the whole thread to this point, and I’m not going to address issues I’ve already gone over, but thank you for your opinion. I feel as though the system is intended for that purpose as well as the “Friend guild, pvp guild, pve guild” aspect.

However that’s not necessarily how it’s used or if it is maybe it’s not used well by all players. In any case, thank you for your reply.

What I get from this discussion is that guilds who applied a “got to catch them all” and “invite all” recruitment style are suffering and guilds who did not are not (quite a few small guilds reported to be successful including myself). This is no different from other games, it is only more visible now due to how the roster is set up with the multi-guild feature.

I was in 3 guilds in the first month of release, I quit everyone because I felt excluded as a member, I joined their mumble/TS and was talked over and never could get a word in after being told we must use TS/mumble, so we did reluctantly because I was always using Skype to quest with my partner.

My feelings were that I was invited to their guild for one reason, to give the guild points for doing my activities. I ended up creating a guild for myself and my missus. I have been in guilds with other mmo’s and found them to be very good on the most part, but with this game, guilds don’t feel very social or welcoming in comparison.

I’m hopping on the “It’s not the system, it’s the people” bandwagon.

Multiple guilds are a good thing. Why? I have a guild of friends who I trust with my guild bank, and like to talk about personal and relevant things between us, like inside jokes, real lives, and the like.

Then I have a WvW guild, with whom are like minded, strategical players who have a very strong desire to win and play competitively. I like WvW, and I like my friends. My friends like me, but they don’t like WvW. This WvW guild likes me, but doesn’t like people who don’t represent or participate in WvW.

It’s not the system, it’s the people. I understand the importance of representing, but people make it out to be a massive deal, and some people are total kitten about it. I made it clear to my WvW guild that my friends will take priority over them, so if they choose to kick me over it, that’s their kitten problem, not mine. I do my fair share of WvWing, so if I want to represent my guild of friends, earn influence for them, and buy PvE bonuses, I’ll do it.

The problem is people are so worried about “Guild loyalty” and whatever. “Omg I want people entirely dedicated to this guild and nothing else.” I understand that, in a competitive standpoint, but you can’t simply force people to represent. You can kick them if they don’t, but you can’t force them to represent.

The multi-guild system isn’t broken. It’s amazing. It’s people who skim the guild roster and get upset because someone isn’t repping.

Don’t get me started on the people that spam recruiting messages, pick up randoms, and then take up arms because the PERSON YOU JUST MET doesn’t do everything you want them to do. Again, it’s the people, not the system. If it was a one-guild system, there’d be arguments amongst friends. And let’s face it, If I had to choose between my friends and some kid who thinks he owns me because he’s the guild leader, I know who I’m going with.

Again, it’s not about trying to force guild loyalty.

It’s about logging in and finding your whole roster is not representing because at some point, they found something shiny elsewhere that distracted their attention and they never came back.

It’s very difficult for a small, start-up guild to be all things to all members. Especially when members don’t tell you what they want, and aren’t willing to put in the effort to help you provide it. You see, with the current system, it’s much easier for someone to just join another guild that’s already doing whatever particular thing they are looking for at that moment than it is to sit and explain to your guild leader what you want and then work on achieving it within the guild you already belong to.

For a lot of players it’s quicker and easier to join another guild rather than make the current guild work. People have little incentive to build anything in a fledgling guild…why wait and put in effort? It’s so much quicker to just start another guild for that specific thing, or join one that’s already established. Leaving several guilds hanging with you as a non-representing member doesn’t really seem to bother most players, because in this system that’s totally acceptable (I think common courtesy should still apply…but what do I know?). In many cases it’s just a matter of good people forgetting or letting time slip away…but the result is the same.

Let me give you an example. In my guild (total members ~30), there are about six people who play WvW regularly. They are all good folks, and started out all representing the guild. Then, a couple of them joined another guild because it facilitated communication in WvW. Then a couple started their own guild to have some extra bank space. Then the last couple stopped representing… because nobody in our guild was playing WvW and they couldn’t find a group to play with.

Standing back and looking at that, it’s sort of ridiculous. We are likely to lose six good people…because none of them ever represent the guild anymore once they switched for various reasons. They might check in once in a while…but what do they find? Nobody else representing, so it’s a self-fulfilling problem. Nobody represents because nobody represents.

Could those players have stuck with one guild and helped to build it out to meet their needs? Sure. If they had, there would be at least six people in our guild right now all playing WvW together. But it was so quick and easy and silky smooth to just switch representation when their needs weren’t being met at that exact moment in time.

I’m sure some will say it’s my failure as a guild leader for not providing everything my members needed right away (despite the guild being brand new), and I definitely accept some of the blame…but I think the multi-guild system in its current incarnation is also a contributing factor.

What’s the solution? I guess we try to start small again, and try to build a guild slowly with members who are willing to stick a bit, be active, and help us build the structure and things that meet their needs. I’m patient, and will be doing what I can…but it sure would help to have more guild tools and info available…plus maybe a re-look by ArenaNet at the overall system and how it’s affecting guilds like mine.

The guild I’m in has a traditional apply on our website entry system. Where it is stated, we want you only in our guild and no others (which I know you can’t really tell if they are) but as well, you must represent us at all times. You have to be on the same server as us as well. While this has led to a smaller active guild size, it has worked out to our advantage.

We as a group “vote” on who we let in based on the application. Smaller amount of members actually enables us to do stuff as a guild. We all know each other, granted for the most part our guild chat isn’t used much though, we use voice chat. Makes for a family instead of just another world chat.

Aside from a WvW guild the capacity of which a guild can reach has no logical point in my opinion. I could understand if there was a form of raiding and I’m not looking to get into that debate but there are 5 mans and and Dynamic events, which with the later you’re going to run into overflow issues. And I know you don’t need to be in a “group” for doing dynamic events but let’s say that you want to get a massive party going with just guild members to go do something. Well you have to go purchase a WvW commander icon to do it. Say you all pitch in a buy it for one person, better hope that person is always online and wants to do what is planned as well.

The game as a whole in my opinion, while trying to bring together players and make it easier to accomplish things without being in a group has honestly pulled players apart. This can be seen quite easily through guilds.

There’s a pretty big disparity just in this thread to what a guild means to an individual, which leads me to conclude that it’s not a difference between multi-guild versus single guild as an option. It’s far more about what that individual member and also guild leader deems important qualities they expect out of being in a guild. I’m personally not biased to either way, however i do find more options available in a multi-guild setup than i do in a single one.

It’s really no different in real world experience, you may join a social club and after one meeting decide it’s not for you. There is talk of family, in general expression and how it pertains to real life families, but that’s hardly an issue, you don’t get to pick your blood relatives and neither does your spouse. I certainly don’t want my guildies to be like family in that sense.

I still stand by it’s not an issue with the setup as it stands, you are certainly free to do quality control and enforce loyalty to your guild. You may or may not experience as much growth doing that, but it seems to me quality (in personal terms) over quantity = success.

Mkalafut.1273:

…

The original post also stated that I am looking to hear from people who like the system as well as hate it, but please keep the discussions civil. You know my stance on it – I hate it. But I’d love to see why there are those who enjoy it aside from the typical guild hopper type and aside from the obvious benefit of being in 3 separate guilds for friends, pvp, and pve.

Thank you.

Why exactly is that reason dismissed out of hand here? To me, that is exactly what the multi-guild system is designed to allow for. To put it another way, no other reason is needed.

For those guild leaders that wish for the multi-guild system to be removed please explain why having an “always represent” rule and enforcing it does not give you exactly the same result.

If you don’t want your guild to participate in the multi-guild system, that’s all you need to do: have a rule that members must represent 100% of the time, make sure they understand and agree to it when they join the guild, and have the fortitude to enforce it. You don’t need to have the feature removed for everyone.

To answer the question. That’s exactly why I like the multi-guild system. I am in a small, very fun, very sociable guild. We talk in Vent, joke, and have a lot of fun. I don’t want to leave that guild. The problem is when I play in WvW, I’d like to be a part of a structured force, rather than just tagging along with the zerg. My guild just doesn’t have that many people that WvW much, and even if everyone did, it would still be too small to have a force that could make a difference. So, I’m also looking for a guild just for the purpose of doing WvW with.

The same goes for dungeons. I’ve completed exactly ONE dungeon since the game started. I’d really like to do them all (all paths) at least once, and some a few times for some skins I’d like to get. My small guild just doesn’t seem to do dungeons very often though. Besides the one I was on, I doubt there have been more than 5 runs total amongst all of us, over the entire life of the game. Possible solution: there are guilds designed specifically for finding groups to do dungeons. Much better than PUGs, because useless people don’t get to stay in the guild, so you can be reasonably sure you’ll get decent group members.

Without the multi-guild system, my only choice is to leave my small, fun guild, and try to find a bigger, much less personal guild to do WvW and dungeons with. I don’t want to leave my small guild. I like the people in it. I just want to be able to join in with a big, organized group when I’m WvWing, and to be able to get a group without playing the roulette wheel when I feel like running dungeons, and for all the rest of my time in the game, to hang out with my small, tight-knit group of friends, who, while they can’t meet my needs for WvW and dungeons, are people that I really like and want to spend time with. Removing the multi-guild system would FORCE me to leave them, or not be able to do everything I want to in the game.

It seems to really depend on the people as well as the guild. I rejoined a guild from GW1 since they were the most active. It’s gotten to 500 members and nearly all of them represent without being asked and usually about 70-90 people are on at once. Of course people have left here and there but I think what keeps them there is that when people ask for help, there’s always someone who readily volunteers, whether it’s for a dungeon, PvP, exploring, etc… In a lot of big guilds and sometimes even smaller guilds where people aren’t online as much, people don’t pay attention to guild chat, they don’t offer help or just hang out with other guildies. With guilds it’s always quality over quantity and if people are able to find one that doesn’t stress on large numbers and is more relaxed then they tend to stay.

The multi-guild system isn’t bad for people who have guilds that specialize in their own things but I see how for guild leaders it’s a bit disappointing. But overall it doesn’t seem to be something that needs to be changed since it seems like these things could be accomplished by recruiting different people or getting a guild to be more active.

I have nothing against multi-guilds. The real problem I found with it is when more than one of your guilds ask you to represent and thus you’ll be forced to choose and leave (or be kicked) the others guilds in conflict.

It’s clear that everyone wants points, but such situations defy the purpose of multi-guilding.

I completely disagree with the OP. I am in multiple guilds. I like being in multiple guilds because of the freedom it allows me. The only hindrance, IMO, to the multiple guild system is the limitation of only being able to talk to one at a time. If I could talk to all of my guilds simultaneously, I could go where I was needed or wanted to be at a moments notice, thereby improving my ability to be a good guild member for all of my guilds instead of just the one I am repping currently.

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I think the fact that guilds are so cheap and easy to create is more damaging than the multi-guild system. Anyone can start a guild and start recruiting members simply because they want the bragging right, or they were bored one night and thought it sounded like a good idea. And thus, players think that a “guild” consists of just being in a group that you pay influence for buffs. Because that is all they know.

I’d say increase guild formation to 5G (with the upgrade tiers such that a 500guild costs about 20G total). This would clear out a large number of pointless guilds. Other than PvP (which doesn’t give gold rewards, maybe they could use tokens or something?), a player who cannot amass 5G has no business running a guild. They are inexperienced with the game. If a group of IRL friends want to form a small guild, they can chip in together. This price would also remove the people who form a guild solely for extended bank space, as it would be cheaper to trade for gems and expand the bank than to make a guild.
Higher price clears out a number of garbage guilds and removes personal guild banks, which encourages people to check out and represent more active guilds. Sure, it won’t remove all bad guilds, and it won’t solve people representing guilds they don’t really participate in. But I think it would definitely improve the situation without having to tear out the multiguild system.
Also, there needs to be a timer showing last time logged in (like in GW1), and last time represented. It is very difficult to tell who is active and who is not in a guild, and this would help leaders manage their guilds.

I like the multi guild system. It makes it easier to meet and hook up with people particularly if I play random hours. It makes it easier to communicate with weekend crowd, the pve crowd, the wvw crowd, RL friends, the lonely oceanic weeknight crowd on Ferg Crossing. I am now able to mingle easily and socialise with lots of different people depending on what time or what activities I am undertaking.

In the OP’s example, I think the problem was he didn’t enforce his rules by just removing the people that weren’t acting in the manner that he wished them to. But then, I think guild control should be by inspiring others to follow, not through enforcement of rules. Its a game after all.

Quality control is important, the multi guild system is not the problem. The problem is the OP’s management of guild members. If you have guild rules and expect people to follow them, then enforce them strictly. If people in the guild don’t recognise you as a guild leader than you haven’t done enough to promote yourself individually or earn their respect. Merely being a guild leader in name or by rank is not enough to earn respect. After all, the guild leader has the most privileges in the guild and gains the most by having people representing the guild as they choose where the influence is spent.

The multi guild system allows flexible playstyle, allows those who have different social circles or a wide range of friends that don’t all enjoy the same activities or keep the same hours to socialise and coordinate more easily.

The problem is not the system, its the people. Its the internet after all, the only control is via inspiration, people have to want to support your guild and by extension the guild leader and their rules.

From reading most guild leaders replies on this thread, it just proves guild leaders are egotistical and sorry, It’s the truth. If I was to join a guild, they are the guild for me, I wont go elsewhere, I wont join elsewhere and quite frankly, if I where to, I honestly believe both guild leaders should kick me and I wouldn’t blame them. If someone is the opposite to me, great, kick them, because it shows loyalty. A good guild will be able to keep those loyal players, if not, they aren’t loyal.

Sirge.8934:

I’d say increase guild formation to 5G (with the upgrade tiers such that a 500guild costs about 20G total). This would clear out a large number of pointless guilds. Other than PvP (which doesn’t give gold rewards, maybe they could use tokens or something?), a player who cannot amass 5G has no business running a guild.

Wow! What a nice way of saying ‘I am an elitist snob!’. What about all of the RP guilds where people actually spend most of their time RPing and not amassing the wealth you would require?

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