Guild Wars 2

Nox Aeterna.2965:

Really this subject is tiresome, and yet i feel the need to come here and post again and again , so Anet does not think this is a one side idea.

DONT remove the MF , it is the players choice.

Honestly , people that does not want to pay for a MF set or dont want to wear it, i dont even waste my time on hearing. Get the set , get the bonus. It is a choice. Dont like it? That is ok also, just forget the bonus , that is all that is gonna happen.

For the problem IN dungeons , i agree that maybe Anet could find a solution , it is true players should be able to pick if they want MF or not , but dungeons require a bit more planing to work and thus people should be focused on the task of finishing it.

Like always this is the simple opinion of me and others tons of people that actually like MF.

Yes, you’re right, I don’t want to spend the money for it, because guess what, I could be spending that money on much more useful runes, like Dwayna and Water runes, which I believe are currently at around 2 gold a piece. Much more of a worthy investment than “greed runes”.

The problem with these threads is that they rarely have ANY sollutions presented on how to deal with the issue.
Everyone just says “remove”, “fix”, without actually suggesting HOW.

I made a thread about 2 possible ways to deal with Magic Find:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Sollution-to-Magic-Find-Customization/first

Astralporing.1957:

The MF does not make your drops better – it makes others drops worse. Since it exists, drop tables are calculated with it in mind – which of course means that everyone without MF gets less.

That doesn’t make any sense at all. If nobody in the dungeon wears MF gear, all members will experience standard drops. If one person wears it, all members except for him will experience standard drops, and that one member will experience enhanced drops.

Somebody wearing MF gear doesn’t somehow make everyone else’s drops worse, that’s simply not how the loot system works. One player’s loot drops have no effect whatsoever on anyone else.

From an interview with Eric Flannum:

Loot is the same kind of thing. Instead of monsters dropping a bundle of loot and the players then having to divide it between themselves, you get the same roll on the loot table that everybody else gets – so long as you’ve got credit for the kill. That means a monster carrying a rare item can drop that item for every single person.

Magic find increases the chance that one player’s “loot roll” yields items from higher on the loot table. This has zero effect on anyone else’s rolls.

Blueshield.6291:

MilitiaMasterV.7216:

I don’t think it should be ‘removed’, but I also don’t get why most games make it into an ‘either/or’ situation. Why not just make a slotted section on armor specifically for MF stuff only (and increase the value as you get higher level up to a certain %) that doesn’t interfere with the other more valuable stats? This seems like a ‘no brainer’ to me. /shrug

The same effect, though would essentially be accomplished by simply upping the universal drop rates by between 1 and 5%. The system as it’s implemented does make sense; in order to ensure a higher drop rate you have to sacrifice some combat effectiveness. It’s a perfectly reasonable tradeoff. The only problem is that some people are so greedy or so lazy that they wear Magic Find gear into places they shouldn’t.

I’d like to propose another way of looking at the problem. Imagine a player who is entirely unconcerned with stats and combat effectiveness, and just wants to look good while he or she journeys through the world. This player finds a set of armor which (s)he thinks is the best-looking set (s)he’s seen yet. Unfortunately, it is a set of common armor with garbage for stats. This player could wear the set of junk armor into a high-level dungeon and ruin his/her combat effectiveness, or (s)he could choose to switch to an appropriate set.

So, because players could wear junk drops into a dungeon, should we remove all junk drops from the game? Or should we consider that the problem is really that the player chose to wear inappropriate gear?

You have just described my son’s armor set. Level 80 wearing a white level 71 breastplate with a major rune—the only rune on his armor at all.

Strangely, his guardian can die (not go downed, fully die) twice per fight and nobody bats an eyelash at him, but my guardian can stay standing through almost anything and carries a single magic find item (shield) with the stacking MF buff sigil (still the best shield i’ve found) and gets comments from people accusing me of stacking MF selfishly (also worth noting that the stat food I ate gave me more stats than I lost on the shield, and your omnomberry bar is more of a reduction relative to real food than I suffered for my shield).

I agree that there is an underlying problem, but the problem is not with gear, it is with people. Anet won’t be swooping in to regulate player activity, we have to do that on our own—that means making known the performance standards and holding people that fail to meet them accountable. It means judging performance, not theory, and it means actually having to interact with people. This is not the MMO where everybody queues for a random dungeon, is teleported there, and completes it with no difficulty or communication between players. This is the MMO where you are part of a community.

One of the best suggestions yet, I want MF gone. I even have a full set of MF gear, but unlike most people I ONLY wear it while soloing. I hate walking into dungeons with a group of people clearly in MF gear. Ask the dude that folds like paper and hits like it too and you’ll inevitably find he’s full of MF gear, which realistically doesn’t give you that great a chance to get better equipment. For that small percentage of a chance, he’s not only hindering himself but the entire team. If I ever find someone with even a piece of MF gear in my fractal groups, they get kicked to the curb. I’m a bit more forgiving with normal dungeons even though I dislike it, but fractals are a straight out no. Which is sad when you think of it, because this was never meant to be that kind of game, but since Anet clearly wants that to change, we all get to ‘adapt’. Get proper gear or gtfo. Tis the name of the game, now.

Nurvus.2891:

The problem with these threads is that they rarely have ANY sollutions presented on how to deal with the issue.
Everyone just says “remove”, “fix”, without actually suggesting HOW.

I made a thread about 2 possible ways to deal with Magic Find:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Sollution-to-Magic-Find-Customization/first

That’s because no matter how you break it down, removal is the solution. As long as the feature is present in an armor upgrade, it will always promote people to be greedy, even at the expensive of hindering their team.

@Blueshield:
It makes perfect sense, the drop rate is going to be lower than what you would find in other games that don’t have a feature such as MF, in order to make people want to use it, this means the people that don’t use it essentially get screwed over on drops. In all likelihood we’ll never get a drop worth any money, a legendary is practically impossible for us, rare skins are out of the question unless the mystic toilet gives us something good, unless we give up and start being greedy like all the other selfish jerks that are slowly starting to take over this game.

The thing is, selfishness is an option. There is a certain point of self-satisfaction where you no longer need money to fulfill your desires. However as I climb towards 10 on the FoTM scale, things are getting much more difficult and therefore the need fore better armour comes into play. I think things like magic find should stick to more food based rather than armour based but then again, it is an option not a necessity to complete the dungeon.

Iehova.9518:

Nox Aeterna.2965:

I would bet most of the players that want to remove it completely are those that dont want to spend the money on the set. Simple like that. (while ofc im sure there is a minority with other reasons.)

I have a full exotic MF set with Pirate/Traveler runes and exquisite gems. I still want MF removed because it kittens my EVERYTHING.

Well i did say there is a minority.

Toast.6459:

Nox Aeterna.2965:

Really this subject is tiresome, and yet i feel the need to come here and post again and again , so Anet does not think this is a one side idea.

DONT remove the MF , it is the players choice.

Honestly , people that does not want to pay for a MF set or dont want to wear it, i dont even waste my time on hearing. Get the set , get the bonus. It is a choice. Dont like it? That is ok also, just forget the bonus , that is all that is gonna happen.

For the problem IN dungeons , i agree that maybe Anet could find a solution , it is true players should be able to pick if they want MF or not , but dungeons require a bit more planing to work and thus people should be focused on the task of finishing it.

Like always this is the simple opinion of me and others tons of people that actually like MF.

Yes, you’re right, I don’t want to spend the money for it, because guess what, I could be spending that money on much more useful runes, like Dwayna and Water runes, which I believe are currently at around 2 gold a piece. Much more of a worthy investment than “greed runes”.

That is perfectly fine also , forget the bonus and move along. Like i said it is a choice.

If you want to pick not to use it , ok nobody is gonna force you to do it.

But tons of other players want to use it. So it is simple like that , they made their choice , you made yours.

Toast.6459:

@Blueshield:
It makes perfect sense, the drop rate is going to be lower than what you would find in other games that don’t have a feature such as MF, in order to make people want to use it, this means the people that don’t use it essentially get screwed over on drops. In all likelihood we’ll never get a drop worth any money, a legendary is practically impossible for us, rare skins are out of the question unless the mystic toilet gives us something good, unless we give up and start being greedy like all the other selfish jerks that are slowly starting to take over this game.

What the poster I replied to stated was that one person using MF gear is having a direct impact on the drops of others – reducing their odds by increasing your own. That is empirically, provably, false.

Just because magic find is there and you aren’t using it doesn’t mean you’re somehow getting lower-value drops than ANet intended you to get. You’re getting exactly the amount that the devs intended. If you use MF gear, you’re getting more than intended.

Fildydarie.1496:

I agree that there is an underlying problem, but the problem is not with gear, it is with people.

Yup.

I’ve been running dungeons daily for the past month and most of the groups I form are pugs. The only problems I’ve ever witnessed is from either a lack of coordination between the group or people leaving during battle (rather it be a d/c or just downright disagreement). I still have yet to see a run foiled over MF gear.

Blueshield.6291:

Toast.6459:

@Blueshield:
It makes perfect sense, the drop rate is going to be lower than what you would find in other games that don’t have a feature such as MF, in order to make people want to use it, this means the people that don’t use it essentially get screwed over on drops. In all likelihood we’ll never get a drop worth any money, a legendary is practically impossible for us, rare skins are out of the question unless the mystic toilet gives us something good, unless we give up and start being greedy like all the other selfish jerks that are slowly starting to take over this game.

What the poster I replied to stated was that one person using MF gear is having a direct impact on the drops of others – reducing their odds by increasing your own. That is empirically, provably, false.

Just because magic find is there and you aren’t using it doesn’t mean you’re somehow getting lower-value drops than ANet intended you to get. You’re getting exactly the amount that the devs intended. If you use MF gear, you’re getting more than intended.

You seem to be missing the point that the “amount intended” by the devs is much lower then you would find in a game that does not have a function such as MF. Why is that? Because the function is present. As I stated, if you even want a chance of getting a drop you can make money off of, you’re basically forced to use MF. The rest of us are stuck never being able to afford anything “rare” because we would rather use useful upgrades.

I disagree, if the four other players can’t carry the MF player, the group is probably bad.

runeblade.7514:

I disagree, if the four other players can’t carry the MF player, the group is probably bad.

Leave troll, go back to whatever bridge you came from and stay there. Literally nine words into the post, and you can’t even read that far to see I told you to keep your crap out of this thread.

Ah i give up , this thread is useless & a waste of space. Players cleared dungeons soon after release when they were full of bugs & harder with white,green,blue gear. Also some didnt even have the gear to complement the spec they have as many ppl had no idea of how & what stats to use. Jet still dungeons were completed with no whips if you have the luck to find decent players. As is it for now elitist groups are forming trying to force their mind on how other ppl should play. Some also spit “facts” wich are a lie & have no base at all. In this game player skill is more inportant than gear , this isnt wow (in wich ppl stil stand in fire despite the gear). Stop complaining on what gear ppl use, its a bout skill ( Cd & avoiding dmg ). Those who qq well i pity you as you have no idea of what kind of game this is & what are its mechanics, you re just enbarasing yourself on forums.

Well, I am sorry that your group is pretty bad at carrying a MF wearer through a dungeon, so bad that you had to flame me. Just because the MF player leeches off the group doesn’t mean that he deserves less reward. After all, He bought the gear with his money.

I run in full green MF gear with MF runes and MF trinkets with MF food yet my group was able to carry me through. Clearly they are good players. So instead of complaining, why not play better to make up what the MF player lacks?

First, forget about the nonesence about player’s choice. I personaly would remove magic find. I think it is just useless stat. But yea what is the difference between playing harder content that will give you more rewards and the same difficulty content, but you can make yourself considerably weaker, which rewards you with better loot. It seems the same to me.

The problem is freeriding, though. The problem is the effect on other people. Do I want you to use MF ? No, because it makes the dungeon/event harder/longer.
Similar thing …. I can tag a boss and then go do nothing, my team will do the rest. Freeriding again….although more extreme form. Hey but it is ok….let the player choose how he wants to play the game right? Just kick him and start the dungeon over.

This topic is not about player’s skill and some weird notion that if you are more experienced then you are allowed to capitalize on it. It is like taking money from other players because they are allowed to go for a dungeon you. Maybe if you do all the work alone….yea, but not if everybody is trying hard.

Honestly I want the people who play with me to perform at their best. You cannot influence some stuff….people have to go afk for example and, well, that is normal. What you can eliminate is magic find. It is easier and more fair to just make harder content with better rewards. That seems more fair.

Toast.6459:

You seem to be missing the point that the “amount intended” by the devs is much lower then you would find in a game that does not have a function such as MF. Why is that? Because the function is present. As I stated, if you even want a chance of getting a drop you can make money off of, you’re basically forced to use MF. The rest of us are stuck never being able to afford anything “rare” because we would rather use useful upgrades.

You seem to be missing the point that the devs are aware that not everyone is going to wear magic find gear, and have scaled the loot tables accordingly. Just because someone chooses to wear magic find gear and have a higher chance at getting valuable drops than you does not mean that you have been slighted. No MF gear is the baseline for drops. You have not been debuffed; those who chose to wear MF have been buffed. There is a huge difference.

How you come to the conclusion that the chance of getting valuable drops is “much lower” than it would be had the devs chosen not to implement Magic Find is unclear to me. Can you indicate a source for this information? If it is, as I suspect, supposition, then I’d suggest examining some of the many developer interviews on the subject of loot.

Personally I’ve not seen proof from either side on the issue. From the remove it side because it is detrimental to class effectiveness: Can we get detailed math to show just how much of a difference the MF gear vs alternatives has? From those in support of it staying I never see any evidence showing just how better MF is to warrant it’s use. Considering arenanet’s stance on nobody having significant advantage over others; I’m inclined to go with the benefit of doubt here; and think neither way is of any significant advantage over others regardless of if you wear MF or not. In other words no significant loss in effectiveness to the group and no significant gain in loot over those who don’t use it.

So really without data it’s subjective. A bad group is going to be bad regardless and a good group will still succeed with adequate gear (level appropriate). How fast a group finishes is much more a factor of how good they are and not how good their gear is. Obviously I’m not talking about the difference between the extremes of white gear with nothing on it vs top gear decked out on all members of the group. The points of discussion focus on MF vs not MF of same gear type (ex exotic). Where the time to complete, if any reduction at all, would be insignificant as well, if the difference between MF vs not MF is insignificant as their stance on the subject implies. Can enough data be provided to prove significant loss for using MF gear over not MF? Because without it the discussion is meaningless. And I’m talking subjective group did better or worse stuff. For reasons already stated as significant variable.

MF instead of other stats is a brainless design.

The underlying psychology behind MF snowballs into a despicable gameplay mentality:
- The missing stat may not mean much in solo, since you will kill slower but also get more average loot per kill; but when it comes to group, your group is paying for your reduced effectiveness, but not benefitting from your bonus loot chances
- You’re probably going to be playing a build with as much AoE and tagging potential as possible in order to maximize the amount of loot you are entitled to, even if your actual contribution is further reduced.
- You’re probably going to adopt a behavior that protects your goal – wealth – by playing defensively and evasively, even if your actual contribution is further reduced.

That being said, I have little against MF in itself.
I am, however, completely against MF replacing combat stats.
It should either:
a) function like paragon levels in Diablo 3, a permanent passive boost meant for dedicated/veteran players
b) have a Fortune slot in equipment, dedicated to MF upgrades

MF food should also have its own type, not conflicting with other food

I don’t use MF gear yet. It’s way down on my list after getting the weapons, etc I want. I would prefer that it be something that you could add additional to the other stats, not in place of.

You wouldn’t need to remove it from the game, you could still Leave the MF Booster, Guild Banner and any other non-equipment MF buff which doesn’t negate having other useful Buffs in it’s place.

Sorry, I disagree, don’t want it removed.

I’ll have to disagree as well. Magic find in no way has made me suffer as of yet. I’ve not gone to far into Fractals. But in many of the dungeons so far, a well composed team of any stats so far has worked great. My guild leader has had several succesfull orr runs, explorer with MF sets, and many in our guild use it aswell.

I think MF is in now way selfish or harming the group. Haveing magic find does not make you a bad player. To think that way is Ignorent(imo). That’s like saying an ele who does not run d/d in a dungeon is a bad player. What a person wears or carries as a weapon does not determine how good of a player they are.

Removing MF is just a terrible idea. I could understand maybe turning it a secondary section like as suggested as being its own slot that you can “add onto”. But Explorer sets also add precision and power…and Plenty glass cannon builds seem to do fine in high level dungeons if they are in a well organized group.

Dungeons were designed for well-organized players. Pug groups are not exactly fitting int hat criteria. They can work wonderfully, or awfully. I think to truely say wether a MF hurts a group you have to be in a well-organized group in which everyone knows exactly how to play off eachothers strenghts. Me and my guild were able to handle fractals on our very first try becuase we knew eachother very well. We have spent a lot of time getting to know eachother, and how we play…

TLDR; MF does not detract from the quality of the group. The player does. Mf does not determine if he sucks, He himself does. Mf is not a factor at all. I would hate to have it removed.

Ps. I do not own a single MF gear set as of yet. It is on my list but I don’t have it yet.

I’ve never had MF be a problem in a dungeon, whether if it was me or dungeon mates wearing MF. I can see how it can be a hindrance to the team, but the players are most likely just not that good. I’ve led a team through dungeons several times wearing MF gear and I’m certain people I’ve played with also had MF gear which all ended as clean and quick runs.

If the problem is the players, why not just ask them to not wear MF gear nicely. If anyone asks me to switch up my gear, I’d be more than happy to since its my alternate set. I realize not everyone carries a second set, but it doesn’t hurt to ask them to switch it up. If not, just tell them sorry and that you’d feel better with a more useful stat combat-wise. The community is fairly nice as far as I know, most people I’ve talked to are quite nice o.o

This is hysterical

I have an ele who is completely set up with FULL magic find…armor, weapon, runes, accessories…what ever.

I did 7 AC runs today and the one that dropped fastest in the group wasn’t me it was the players that had no clue what they were doing our how to follow targets or even how to follow the group.

I was also hitting for over 1,000 dmg on a regular basis with my fireball. Yes I know I’m basically playing a glass cannon build so I have to rotate my attunements regularly and stay back, way back.

In all 7 of those runs, I received no golds, as a matter of fact several of my teammates did. I honestly think people on this thread are freaking out about absolutely nothing. Yeah my elementalist I have to play skillfully because her stats make her basically paper in dungeons and god forbid I take her to WvW, but I have gotten more golds on other characters then I have playing with her and in these dungeon runs more often then not I was drawing agro as well because no one knew where to go.

If there was any “unfair” advantage that I had over other players in regards to loot I have yet to see it and all I do are dungeon runs. It’s the coordination of the team that means the team will win or lose…and if you think having more “combat” appropriate stats on armor etc will mean that you’re going to romp and stomp dungeon enemies…think again because more often those people are noobs that don’t follow target calls, over agro, and cause party wipes that lead to rage quitting.

I have a better suggestion.
Change magic find to be a group buff. Have it act as a boon, showing the percent of magic find buffed to the group. This would mean everyone would recieve the bonus of having a high MF wearer in the group.. meaning you would have a REASON to carry them along.

As it stands now, either the MF wearer drags the group down, or they take off their MF and are poor. Both sides of the option suck terribly. I tend to take a middle ground, I have omnomberry bars and I use runes of the pirate. 80% magic find is good enough by far without nerfing my damage and survivability. Runes arn’t the end of the world.

I was under the assumption that MF gear included runes, and that people didn’t want you if you are using MF runes as well instead of ones that’ll benefit your ‘useful’ stats. Of course, I don’t care either way. I’ve never grouped up (both PUGs and preset) with people that made any sort of deal about having MF.

My two cents: I have been running with MF armor for a while now, and I really don’t see the benefit of it outside of more dye drops. I think complaints against it are overblown and faith in it is misplaced. I ran a dungeon in my MF and walked out with pockets bulging with needles and blue drops. Ran the same dungeon two days later in my exotics and walked out with three yellow. I have put my MF armor away for good.

Yes, please remove magic find.

Astralporing.1957:

The MF does not make your drops better – it makes others drops worse. Since it exists, drop tables are calculated with it in mind – which of course means that everyone without MF gets less.

So how does this work if a full dungeon group has topped up with MF both on gear, boosts, cons, banners and guild boosts?
I have two sets of almost identical armour one with MF and one without . The different in my states are minimal and I can’t see any different when I’m soloing the same mobs in the same area. At least nothing worth mention, so I guess that applies to dungeons as well.

just remove magic find in dungeons anywhere else is fine.

I have to say magic find as a budgeted stat is just a terrible idea that rewards players for being selfish. They are a directly harming the group for their own gain, sure I’m speaking in very harsh terms here, but they are slowing down the run, or evening being the last straw so to speak in a wipe. It’s a greedy mechanic that people really dislike because it forces us to either be like every other kitten, or be the ones taken advantage of.

That being said I have seen some excellent points for it remaining in certain forms. The best idea I have seen is to have some type of magic relic or crystal in a dungeon that charges with each event/boss completion for better magic find (the whole relic charge idea was to keep some element of lore tied to it as opposed to just “hey, free magic”) as this will encourage people to complete content rather than speed run things like crazy.

At the very least, we need some inspecting feature. While i really disliked the gear emphasis and inspecting approach WoW has, if a player is at liberty to take a stat that benefits him or herself at the cost of everyone else in the equation, I should at least be at liberty to choose not to play with said players. Even if a full blown inspection isn’t a good idea, or a feasible addition to the game (I can see the “full exotics only” posts incoming, and I agree that could be detrimental), we at least need SOME way to identify or broadcast someone’s magic find as it is the ONLY budgeted stat that has no effect other than to increase personal gain at the cost of the other people involved.

tl;dr I honestly don’t see how anyone who isn’t currently being an MF leech to be opposed to a system that broadcasts (via inspection or simply showing a buff with the total value) a players MF%.

+1 / Signed on this one. Remove magic find. Perhaps an “ala Diablo 3” approach?

Iehova.9518:

Nox Aeterna.2965:

I would bet most of the players that want to remove it completely are those that dont want to spend the money on the set. Simple like that. (while ofc im sure there is a minority with other reasons.)

I have a full exotic MF set with Pirate/Traveler runes and exquisite gems. I still want MF removed because it gimps my EVERYTHING.

Why did you waste your money/materials on that.

The magic find on that gear is the same regardless of the gear quality. You could be using greens and still have the same base MF as someone who used their ectos on exotics. The only thing that is better is the other stats and the armor, and the increase isn’t -really- that impressive.

MF is a great stat but it needs to have zero effect in dungeons so people don’t use it there. It only affects drops from mobs. Chests, salvaging, loot bags… none of that is affected, so really all they need to do is essentially strip the effects of magic find in dungeons and your problem is solved.

Also OP there is a huge difference between GW1 and GW2 in terms of economy. In GW1 it wasn’t a persistent world and farming wasn’t something you could do endlessly (you would eventually need to return to town to reset the zone you were in). Drop rates were higher -but- still limited to how many party members you had. If you had a team full of heroes you received far less loot than a full team, or even half a team of players would.

In GW2 you can farm endlessly provided your farming route passes a vendor where you can take a quick stop to sell all the items you don’t plan to place on the TP. As a result drop rates are lower, because if they were as high as GW1 then the economy would spiral out of control with high end crafting materials being worth nothing as a result. If you want proof of that take a look at the greens and blues on the TP. Most of them unless the demand is high are selling for a few copper above the vendor price. Now imagine that level of chaos, but with every item regardless of rarity.

MF needs to stay, it just needs to be nullified within dungeons.

If they remove everything someone doesn’t like, pretty soon there will be nothing left in game. :P

I’d rather they just change it. Put it on a separate slot or something so that you can keep your stats.

I’m surprised that nobody has yet mentioned time. Time is the currency that players put into the game. When you are soloing you need to consider whether 10% better magic find is better than stats that let you gather loot (kill) faster, especially if it is more than 10% faster. Moving into dungeons the equations change.

Let’s suppose that because one player is wearing 5% magic find, a group wipes just 1 more time in 100 attempts at some content. Across all the visits, each player in the group now spends 101% of the time they might have otherwise spent, plus repair costs. The player with magic find is getting 105% extra loot, or probably much less than 105% since coin is unaffected, and chests, and barter items. Why should the other members of the party be happy with that?

Stooperdale.3560:

I’m surprised that nobody has yet mentioned time. Time is the currency that players put into the game. When you are soloing you need to consider whether 10% better magic find is better than stats that let you gather loot (kill) faster, especially if it is more than 10% faster. Moving into dungeons the equations change.

Let’s suppose that because one player is wearing 5% magic find, a group wipes just 1 more time in 100 attempts at some content. Across all the visits, each player in the group now spends 101% of the time they might have otherwise spent, plus repair costs. The player with magic find is getting 105% extra loot, or probably much less than 105% since coin is unaffected, and chests, and barter items. Why should the other members of the party be happy with that?

If it was 1 more wipe every 100 runs, why would anyone care, really?

But time is an interesting angle to look at the topic from. With MF you are condencing your time.
What I mean is, lets say with balanced, combat based armor you can do
100 kills an hour
and on average you get
50 drops, out of which
10 are greens and 1 is rare.

When you go for MF, the amount of kills you get drops, slightly depending on your stats and skill. (Lets say part of your stats were meant for survivability and not damage)
Obviously, dealing less damage drops the potential max kills you can do within an hour. But your skill can replace the lost survivability in the gear.
This is the main thing which affects the amount of kills you get within an hour, whether or not you need to run from the WP all the time.

If you can replace the survivability from gear with skill, you might only lose 10% of the skills per hour due to dealing less damage, but now you got 100% more MF, on average, doubling your greens and rares.
Therefore you kill
90 mobs, you get
45 drops, you get
18 greens and 2 rares.

So, the way I see it, MF is means for more experienced players to play more efficiently. (So your level can go up to 80, but your skill (and rewards for it) can go beyond.)
I’m not really sure if I can see anything wrong with that.

Other, far inferior method, of condencing your time would be to be a glass cannon, where you still replace survivability with skill, but instead of increasing the quality of the loot, you increase quantity.
Like doing 110 kills per hour would give you
55 loot drops, 11 greens and 1 rare.
I don’t see people arguing against glass cannons though.

Of course, all the figures here are exemplary

I have a full set of exotic MF gear on my level 80 Guardian. I also have a full set of exotic Knights armor on him. Although I do not wear my MF gear while running fractals or dungeons I do run it when farming solo and I have one statement to add here.

I am less effective running a bad build then I am running my MF gear. In fact I am more likely to be defeated with a bad build versus MF. So if your true purpose in wanting MF removed is so that people will be more effective in dungeons and fractals then you should consider asking bad builds to be removed first.

There is no point having anything but full MF gear. Who would like to play with less chance of having good items drop. Remove it yeah!

I don’t feel like it should be removed, I have a full set of MF that I use, but only when I’m farming for items. Otherwise I’m maxing out my characters stats as much as possible.

Peronally I don’t see why people can’t invest in two builds or more for their character(Expensive, yet but it has many advantages). I’m still working on getting Exotic and maxing my stats, but depending on the scenario I will use different gear for PvE, Dailies, World Bosses, Dungeons, Farming and WvW as I find appropriate to my style.

I say just get used to it, it’s a system there that you can either ignore and just go with base loot rolls or take advantage of to stack the odds a little more in your favor.