Guild Wars 2

Krosslite.1950:

Frosty and Frosty Law Firm.4981:

WoW made the MMO genre what it is today, whether we like to admit that or not. It was the first popular MMO that truly drew attention and set down the foundations(to be ignored or not, as GW2 ignores quite a bit of Actiblizzard’s ideas) for other MMOs to be made. Mana is merely a piece of the game.

No, I don’t like WoW, but it popularized the idea of mana.

I personally think it stupid. You might as well give warriors a dehydration meter in combat and force them to cram a bottle of Asurafina down their throats to keep swinging. I respect how it forces spellcaster(Or in my odd example, warriors)to time and calculate their moves and form strategies, but I just don’t like the idea.

I’m tired and brain-dead. Take my rationalization for what you will, I’m not trying to make GW2 seem like WoW.

GW2 is a return to what MMOs were like before WoW .
WoW was made to satisfy the console gamers that were becoming aware of MMOs like EQ and UO and were whining that they couldn’t play them like a console game.
True Mana has been around since EQ if not earlier, which WoW took that idea and used in their game.
The gameplay mechanics of this game are perfect the way they are. If you want Mana go somewhere else

Please, please, take the time to read my post above before you make a snide comment on my response to a response.

NinjaEd.3946:

MithranArkanere.8957:

What you call “mana” is still in the game. But now it’s only used for dodging.

There’s suggestions about using that resource for other things, like parry or sprint.

Endurance isn’t really skill consuming. Its only for dodging. […]

Dodging is an ‘iconless’ skill. There’s skills with icons that also dodge, often along other effects.
It not having an icon doesn’t make it less of an skill.

Anyways, at this stage of the design brining back mana is inviable. Changing or adding individual separate mechanics of a skill type is one thing, but re-adding a discarded mechanic for all skills but one is not something you can do without severely affecting the whole game and playerbase.

Mana and similar resources are far before MMO era, but in MMOs are usually used in more sinister way, especially if you take business politics of the company who made the game.

We all heard about WOW, I don’t like it (make mess with your personality) and I tend to avoid those players. But I myself have played it. What Blizzard did is created monthly subscription for their game so it is in their best interest to make gameplay slow in every possible way. Mana, stamina or energy bars contribute to this mechanism. WOW player, especially if it is caster, can’t go just casting and nuking enemies – must take break or be weak as GW2 caster can. So if you play slower, chances are high that you will pay subscription again next month.

Some have heard about Allods online – also knows as best WOW clone but it is free to play. This game also uses mana and gives game mechanic with even slower pace thus making you frustrated to tears to buy something from their micro transaction shop for real money. Allods player need even more time to level up his character to max level than WOW player.

Guild Wars 2 – we already payed our dues to Arena Net and because of that, they do not suffocate us by slowing with such things as mana, stamina etc. There is no point for them to slow us down with our ingame progress and this makes Guild Wars 2 fastest leveling game. What endurance, cool-downs and thief’s energy comes for is to make it a bit challenging. Also very important as we don’t have dogma trinity (tenk/dps/healer) we have freedom of choice instead so if player is glass canon caster like me, must use this resource and CDs wisely not to be one shot by boss.

I saw some videos rescently from other MMO games, including GW1 (haven’t played it) and I think to myself “I really don’t want to go back mana based (MMO) games”.

We don’t need mana, we need more lvl80 content with horizontal progression.

Inkubus.7529:

This is very st…. step back idea. If mana returns to the game, then the potions for mana returns, also it requites trinity dogma (tenk/healer/DPS), decrease versatility of professions (i.e. warrior and thief should no longer use ranged weapons, most professions should loose heal ability and give it to mana users only), return of toon gear based advantage over actual player skills…

Elementalist : Most people make berserker version of it casting fire. Some people make Arcane elementalist with rampager gear. This is true power of elementalist and make it very unique while rotating elemnts. Also elementalists are the profession with smallest weapon base and they can’t swap weapons.

I don’t think you read all the posts. I know something like this would be challenging, and especially at this point in time very hard to test out. The point I’m making is that, excluding thief, all professions I see just toss all their cooldowns at the enemy to acheive victory, or kite long enough to do the same thing. Spells/skills have different cooldowns but I hardly see combinations other than just press the button when it is availible. as for bringing trinity system back, huh? This isn’t asking for a monk, or to give guardian a taunt or even adding potions, so not even sure where you get that from.
And your description of elementalists is exactly my point, they only tend to use fire and occasionally I see earth. They dont have weapon swap because every weapon they choose has 4 different skill kits, yet the vast majority of people I see in pve areas like orr, or dungeons and many people in wvw, only use fire. There is certainly room to be unique, but ppl seem to just use what does the most dmg. Mesmer same story only difference I see is how people trait which affects which skills to use but I see very few combinations other than a million clones, stealth with daggers, and Gs zapping people to death. Energy resource isn’t a necessity, but there are still tons of balance issues in pvp and pve which something like energy might fix if ArenaNet found a way to approach it at this point in time.

Mana is a ressource- but Cooldowns are a ressource too.
So instead of adding spammable Skills limited by Mana and its regeneration they added cooldowns for each Skill.

Other games went that way before.. Sacred for example had CDs instead of Mana too

I like the Game like it is now.

Frosty and Frosty Law Firm.4981:

Krosslite.1950:

Frosty and Frosty Law Firm.4981:

WoW made the MMO genre what it is today, whether we like to admit that or not. It was the first popular MMO that truly drew attention and set down the foundations(to be ignored or not, as GW2 ignores quite a bit of Actiblizzard’s ideas) for other MMOs to be made. Mana is merely a piece of the game.

No, I don’t like WoW, but it popularized the idea of mana.

I personally think it stupid. You might as well give warriors a dehydration meter in combat and force them to cram a bottle of Asurafina down their throats to keep swinging. I respect how it forces spellcaster(Or in my odd example, warriors)to time and calculate their moves and form strategies, but I just don’t like the idea.

I’m tired and brain-dead. Take my rationalization for what you will, I’m not trying to make GW2 seem like WoW.

GW2 is a return to what MMOs were like before WoW .
WoW was made to satisfy the console gamers that were becoming aware of MMOs like EQ and UO and were whining that they couldn’t play them like a console game.
True Mana has been around since EQ if not earlier, which WoW took that idea and used in their game.
The gameplay mechanics of this game are perfect the way they are. If you want Mana go somewhere else

Please, please, take the time to read my post above before you make a snide comment on my response to a response.

last sentence wasn’t aimed at you. I apologies to you since you took it that way

NinjaEd.3946:

The point I’m making is that, excluding thief, all professions I see just toss all their cooldowns at the enemy to acheive victory, or kite long enough to do the same thing. Spells/skills have different cooldowns but I hardly see combinations other than just press the button when it is availible.
. . .
And your description of elementalists is exactly my point, they only tend to use fire and occasionally I see earth. They dont have weapon swap because every weapon they choose has 4 different skill kits, yet the vast majority of people I see in pve areas like orr, or dungeons and many people in wvw, only use fire.

I still would like you to role elementalist and try that logic in Orr. Also, go to SPvP and fight thief with fire – good luck with that! Ele on fire with staff can cast fireball as fastest skill and it takes 1 sec CD, on scepter it has Flamestrike with 1,25 sec CD – in that time – how many hits thief can make to ele? Thiefs dagger abilities have no CD, have high damage output and thief has better armor. Also, thief can in 3 hits kill ele with just typing ability 2. Yes, I am good but usually thief can jump on you and as ele you have one choice – die. Now if we get mana on top of it, we are goner with this mechanic.

As for using fire, it is good sometimes but not always. It seems they use plain direct what it is understandable. There is Arcane build with rampager gear that can make more damage, give nice CC skills but requires a lot of player skill while shuffle trough elements. If mana returns, this will become impossible to use but for dungeons it is good to stay as it is – not OP but still good burst. Doesn’t work in SPvP so other professions are safe.

I haven’t played for good mesmer, but did played necro and love to play it on staff. Introducing mana can be total disaster for this play.

Inkubus.7529:

I still would like you to role elementalist and try that logic in Orr. Also, go to SPvP and fight thief with fire – good luck with that! Ele on fire with staff can cast fireball as fastest skill and it takes 1 sec CD, on scepter it has Flamestrike with 1,25 sec CD – in that time – how many hits thief can make to ele? Thiefs dagger abilities have no CD, have high damage output and thief has better armor. Also, thief can in 3 hits kill ele with just typing ability 2. Yes, I am good but usually thief can jump on you and as ele you have one choice – die. Now if we get mana on top of it, we are goner with this mechanic.

I bolded the part I’m replying to.
Your situation is invalid because we’re also suggesting Thief to get small cooldown.

In the end, Thief would no longer be able to spam 2.
Cooldown-based professions would no longer be able to unload ALL of their arsenal at once.

It gives ANet MORE tools to balanced the game.

Not all skills would need to cost Initiative.
Not all Thief skills would need a cooldown, and most would get tiny cooldowns like 2s or 3s.
But it’s a Tool worth using in order to balance the game and make skills feel more unique.

Nurvus.2891:

It gives ANet MORE tools to balanced the game.

The more mechanics you put in it, more complicated it becomes for developers and exponentially increases chance to mess up things.

It is obvious they wanted very balanced game as in SPvP we have very limited gear to put on our toons. So it is easier to balance with less in the mechanics.

More doesn’t mean “better” and it is usually quality vs. quantity issue. Same goes with skills we were discussing already. I think this way we have more quality designed skills as it is now.

According to my resources, Heart seeker is nerfed after release – I wonder is this causing all this mana need?

The goal of this post, whether it fell apart throughout or not, is offering different approaches to balancing. The thing is energy is seperate of cooldown (if it was added) so just because a skill combo that may seem like it would drain you completely of energy due to longer cooldowns, doesn’t necesarily mean it will be designed that way. The only goal of energy is to be a quick regenerating resource, that can be traited or what not to be quicker, that limits how many spells in a short period of time certain professions may use spells excluding skill #1 (basic attack)

I play thief and I played against thiefs in pvp, so thats why I suggest the minor cd. Many people I run into say thief in pvp takes no skill. Just c/d, backstab, 2 2 2 2 2 2 . A .5 or 1 second cooldown on skills like Heartseeker, dancing dagger, and death blossom would be excellent as you would be forced to use a different skill after another but still be able to burst skills out( I see no reason for a cooldown on c/d as it doesn’t do much more damage than regular attack and consumes a ton of initiative). You won’t see “22222222” anymore, you’ll see a combination of all their spells but still rapdily.

And when I say pvp, I don’t mean tpvp. I’m sure things are much different there but for casual, jump into a pvp match this is the issue.

Inkubus.7529:

Nurvus.2891:

It gives ANet MORE tools to balanced the game.

The more mechanics you put in it, more complicated it becomes for developers and exponentially increases chance to mess up things.

It is obvious they wanted very balanced game as in SPvP we have very limited gear to put on our toons. So it is easier to balance with less in the mechanics.

More doesn’t mean “better” and it is usually quality vs. quantity issue. Same goes with skills we were discussing already. I think this way we have more quality designed skills as it is now.

According to my resources, Heart seeker is nerfed after release – I wonder is this causing all this mana need?

Seriously?
You quote a single line of text from my post, yet managed to skip the 3 lines below it that answer all your questions:

Not all skills would need to cost Initiative.
Not all Thief skills would need a cooldown, and most would get tiny cooldowns like 2s or 3s.
But it’s a Tool worth using in order to balance the game and make skills feel more unique.

If ANet isn’t forced to use Initiative on every cooldown-based skill, nor cooldowns on every Initiative-based skill, how is that adding complexity?
They would have the OPTION to use 1 additional tool to help balance the skill for the right situation.

Sometimes a skill is not OP due to its cooldown – and changing the cooldown doesn’t fix it – but the combos it can be used in.
In that case, introducing Initiative fixes it.
The other skills that are fine wouldn’t need to be touched.

Sometimes a skill isn’t OP – the Initiative cost may be fair – but being able to spam it can be.
In that case, a small 2s or 3s cooldown fixes it.
The other skills that are fine wouldn’t need to be touched.

Nurvus.2891:

Inkubus.7529:

Nurvus.2891:

It gives ANet MORE tools to balanced the game.

The more mechanics you put in it, more complicated it becomes for developers and exponentially increases chance to mess up things.

It is obvious they wanted very balanced game as in SPvP we have very limited gear to put on our toons. So it is easier to balance with less in the mechanics.

More doesn’t mean “better” and it is usually quality vs. quantity issue. Same goes with skills we were discussing already. I think this way we have more quality designed skills as it is now.

According to my resources, Heart seeker is nerfed after release – I wonder is this causing all this mana need?

Seriously?
You quote a single line of text from my post, yet managed to skip the 3 lines below it that answer all your questions:

Not all skills would need to cost Initiative.
Not all Thief skills would need a cooldown, and most would get tiny cooldowns like 2s or 3s.
But it’s a Tool worth using in order to balance the game and make skills feel more unique.

If ANet isn’t forced to use Initiative on every cooldown-based skill, nor cooldowns on every Initiative-based skill, how is that adding complexity?
They would have the OPTION to use 1 additional tool to help balance the skill for the right situation.

Sometimes a skill is not OP due to its cooldown, but the combos it can be used in.
In that case, introducing Initiative fixes it.
The other skills that are fine wouldn’t need to be touched.

Sometimes a skill isn’t OP, but being able to spam it can be (some Thief skills).
In that case, a small 2s or 3s cooldown fixes it.
The other skills that are fine wouldn’t need to be touched.

I read them and still think it is an extra item in game mechanics and every extra complicates things.
What you suggested is breaking consistency quite heavily. With your idea, players would be confused why this behaves like this and why this other doesn’t? It would arose new flood of ideas like “Why not all skills are treated the same? Why these have no CD while others do? Why these have no initiative/mana/stamina usage and others do?”. Again: More doesn’t mean better.

Right now players know what to expect with one exception with every profession (warriors have adrenaline, guardians have passive heal, mesmers have passive illusion/clones appearance, necromancers have death shroud with extra health bar….) and it is a part of a profession so players can easily comprehend. Idea you are suggesting will make players wonder too much, and get confused too much and in crucial moment will be unaware why something didn’t happen while other things did thus breaking their idea for the situation and causing frustration. Not fun.

If the originally problem is with the balance I can understand that and it is very possible that it will be handled more and more as time passes by which is not necessarily by adding something extra that can complicate things even more. I am a programmer and know this very well and burned my self very badly couple of times form making things complicated by adding more stuff.

Current combat system is simpler, so if balancing is needed, better to change some skill(s) entirely of some profession, which is easier than adding something that will affect skills of all professions on all weapons. Notice I haven’t wrote “all skills”. Game is young, very young. I am quite sure producers kept pressure on developers to publish game earlier (yeah I am in that business) and we had launch with some serious issues. Still some issues exists and they are priority obviously. We are awaiting new patch this December – maybe some more balancing we will see which is more likely than to change entire concept of ability usage by adding more stuff.

For thief, you’re right on the same page as me. Increasing the initiative cost of heartseeker would displease every thief imaginable and would just accomplish nothing but throwing them into the dirt. A .5-1.5 second cooldown of skills #2-4 (for dual dagger, and possible some other builds like s/p, p/d) would do nothing but make thiefs actually use more then 2 skills. The 5th skill for thieves I havn’t seen one that is really overpowered in any way. They can lead to a good dmg output or even drastically help with aoe blind but the initiative costs for them outweigh any chance to abuse them.

As for Inkubus, some might ask why thief gets a spammable resource while everyone else is left on long cooldowns. It goes both ways, the thing is energy could be considered, BUT i’m sure ArenaNet would need to look at some (but not all) of those skills that now rely on energy and consider lowering their cooldowns. IT is a complicated and delicate process that would take more than just tossing in a bar with some numbers onto everyones’ HUD. But it is an option that may solve many balance problems.

in regard to theifs and spamming skills, well you have to quite often since a lot of the thief weapon skills are a LOT more situational with little to no dmg on them(so really act a LOT more like extra utility skills than actual weaponskills), so you really would pummel the thief dps in the ground adding even a short cd on them, take a d/p as example (that is the weaponset i run most on my thief thus know most about), and well 4(headshot) and 5(black powder) is offers off the wiki’s tooltip a measly 84 dmg each, but provide a daze and blind respectively, where even the dagger #1 first skill in chain (double strike) list (x2)188 dmg, and heartseeker even at 100%-50% HP deal 336 dmg which is by far not an efficient use of initative to use it at such target HP level, so yeah you would have to redo majority of thiefskills even if you add a 1-2sec cd on them to make them deal a lot more dmg those that are used for utility to this day

(no i do not say or imply that thief is perfectly balanced, but adding a cd wont fix it, hell might in fact make it worse, if it not done VERY carefully)

I agree, at this late in the game adding any sort of resource or changing any existing resources is very difficult to approach without upsetting those who were happy with the old ways. Thats not to say the majority agree with the way things are but ArenaNet won’t look at this with 49% vs 51%. I’m sure they expect a huge thumbs up on something like this to submit it to the game developers but thats where forums like these come to use. Community feedback adds up and I’m not saying my orignial post or any posts beyond that are perfect, but never the less I stand by them as a potential solution to these balance issues without simply altering the skills’ values.

Mesmers already have to manage a class specific resource. We have illusions.

A lot of the kittening from the recent changes (all Phantasms requiring buggy LoS) is due to us being denied our class specific resource due to buggy LoS.

As for Elementalists, adding mana restrictions makes them less unique. Allowing Necros and Warriors to use skills that consume life force/adrenaline would be neat though, since it would be a different way to spend those class specific resources and them give more options… not less options (which would happen with adding another resource to most classes).

Also, what is wrong with cool downs being the main resource? People who spam abilities when they are off cool down are still bad players, and are rewarded as such.

Surbrus.6942:

).
Also, what is wrong with cool downs being the main resource? People who spam abilities when they are off cool down are still bad players, and are rewarded as such.

But they feel like they are good because of their potential dmg output. When they are able to spam all skills currently on cooldown they get the idea that they are doing whats right. If you add something like Energy, they will see how “oh, I ran out of energy. Maybe I’m supposed to think of my spell combinations before throwing spaghetti at the wall and seeing what sticks”. It would, in theory, actually promote players to play smarter because now they have to think of what their doing instead of seeing the cooldown timer comeing off and repeating their same mistake.

I would love to play a necromancer but I feel like it would be just a elementalists with a different theme and more summons. If I saw something like lifeforce as a resource and skills regain some of it back on successful hits (Think Vladamir in League Of Legends, or some MMOS that have warriors consume health on a powerful skill) there is a tradeback but the reward can be exhilarating. Thats not to say this alone makes me disregard rolling a necromancer but it certainly would attract me and possibly others if they saw this. Its all in the eye of the player.

Surbrus.6942:

As for Elementalists, adding mana restrictions makes them less unique. Allowing Necros and Warriors to use skills that consume life force/adrenaline would be neat though, since it would be a different way to spend those class specific resources and them give more options… not less options (which would happen with adding another resource to most classes).

Elementalist are unique because they can swap elements, ele is not so good ele if it is only in one element atonement.
Warriors already have this adrenaline that they fill as they fight, once full, they can unleash lot of damage
Necromancers have this life force pool that they fill, and if there is any, they can assume Death shroud form with new 4 skills but rapidly depleting this Life force pool (very unique indeed)

NinjaEd.3946:

But they feel like they are good because of their potential dmg output. When they are able to spam all skills currently on cooldown they get the idea that they are doing whats right. If you add something like Energy, they will see how “oh, I ran out of energy. Maybe I’m supposed to think of my spell combinations before throwing spaghetti at the wall and seeing what sticks”. It would, in theory, actually promote players to play smarter because now they have to think of what their doing instead of seeing the cooldown timer comeing off and repeating their same mistake.

I would love to play a necromancer but I feel like it would be just a elementalists with a different theme and more summons. If I saw something like lifeforce as a resource and skills regain some of it back on successful hits (Think Vladamir in League Of Legends, or some MMOS that have warriors consume health on a powerful skill) there is a tradeback but the reward can be exhilarating.

Elementalist can’t spam spells the way you described. Average elementalist run-out of health pretty quickly and that is very important resource. Elementalists runout of available spells pretty quickly so adding energy/mana would be game over for ele.
Fire spells on staff example: Fireball 1 sec, Lava font 6 sec, Flame burst 10 sec, Burning retreat 20 sec, Meteor shower 30 sec! Now if that is not enough there is no point talking on this subject anymore. What spamming of abilities you are talking about?

Necromancers do have Life force pool. I level up my necro at the moment. It is not like elementalist at all except it is caster class and wears light armor. It is much easier to PvE as necro as you can have up to 5 personal tenks all the time (5 undead minions perfect for mobs distraction) + second life bar (mentioned death shroud from Life force) + life drain if use knifes as weapon. Also, necro’s can swap weapons in combat as other professions. I like staff with necro more than staff on ele. As for comparison to the Vladimir from LOL – necro in GW2 can do his thing and much more. Do roll this profession and try all the weapons yet I still think he is conditioner oriented (staff + scepter).

Because the game works around skill cooldowns and not mana.

NinjaEd.3946:

I’m just curious as to why nothing like energy from GW1 was transfered over to GW2. There is thief initiative, and Warrior adrenaline but adrenaline is only for their profesion skill. I feel like there is too little influence over resource for skills which have soo much to offer.

I’m very glad there is no mana in this game. I love the class resource mechanics just as they are.

Having both mana and cool downs on a skill just makes mana a long term resource. Meaning it becomes a mechanism that requires you to pause between battles to wait for your mana to fill back up.

Having mana and lower cool downs on a skill will just makes all classes spam their best dmg/mana spells.

The current system is great because I don’t feel like I need to ‘conserve’ my heavy hitting spells (except for my elite) because of resource management. It also makes the thief class unique in the sense that they have the flexibility to activate any skill without cool down, which complements their lore nicely.

Those are long cooldown spells. But do you switch to a different attunement when those skills arn’t availible or just kite until they are? And if you switch to another attunement do you burn all of those cooldowns to? Becuase if so thats exactly my point. Perhaps to make energy viable for elementalists 50% of their max energy could be recharged over a short duration (2, 3 seconds) when swapping attunements. I see how energy may discourage one from switching attunements if they have no energy b4 they swap. But make a built in profession passive that gives a good amount back over a short period of time and then they still will have enough energy to use spells or since basic attacks (#1) don’t consume energy they could actually give back a small amount of energy on successful hits. That way constantly hitting and normal kiting will still give you plenty of energy to play with.

Energy doens’t have to be some 10k + resource at level 80 that just gets to hard to even look at. But simple 100 with maybe 5 energy a second, with either 50 energy gained over 2 seconds on weapon swap or another 5 energy gained per successful basic attack. The whole goal of energy is to not be something you literlly have to keep an eye on and make sure you don’t starve yourself halfway through a fight. The goal is to discourage players from tossing a dozen skills out in rapid succession, so they may play smarter. And not all skills have to costs energy to begin with. Utility skills are usualy situational and healing skills are a must so they shouldn’t affect anything then having their basic cooldown. Elite skills can’t be spammed in any way so they arnt a real issue either. But weapon skills are quick and easy to toss at enemies in a short time frame. I played Ranger and elementalists in Gw1 and I don’t remember having that many issues managing energy unless I decided to equip heavy energy costing spells and throw them all together. I was actually forced to think on when to use skills rather than use them because they are off cooldown.