Guild Wars 2

Snowy.9580:

A GW2 raid would look something like…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cFucXYlw94

Shame I could see one with 25 people all rolling like tumbleweeds!

Hilarious. And the running part is because everyone in this game LOVES to skip stuff. Never have I played an MMO where people skip so much in a dungeon, or have unique work arounds for an encounter. Its obsurd.

cesmode.4257:

Two words: Gear treadmill. If they put in raids, Id imagine they would put some sort of gear treadmill to keep players running through the raid each night and each week for better gear. Itll be just like WoW and any other MMO. I play this game because it isnt like every other MMO. Granted, the recent Item treadmill that was introduced is a step in the wrong direction. But if they put in raids, god help us all. Id probably stop playing and go raid with friends in that other game.

Not true. People just think that because of previous games. If they put in raiding it would be how dungeons are, but more challenging, allow more people and be longer and not so faceroll.

Beating a boss would drop a chest. Inside would be random gear, possibly some mats and tokens to turn in for weapon and armor skins. They could possibly even add harder difficulties and have different looking weapon and armor skins for each one.

Whether it’s raiding or something else I believe this game needs some sort of end game PvE content. Not everyone wants to do PvP forever. Some people are turned off of the raiding idea because they automatically compare it to WoW. This isn’t WoW. Nothing Anet does is going to be exactly like WoW. If they come out with some sort of raiding I’m sure they will make it their own.

Zeldain.5710:

You didn’t hang out on the pre-release SW:TOR forums beating the same drum by chance, did you?

No, haven’t played the game nor been to their forums.

Lol, nicely said, Travail.

It is sad that people see ‘raid’ and instantly think gear treadmill. It doesn’t have the be like that.

Look at raids this way, people. Take a explorable dungeon, make it bigger, allow more players(10, maybe 25?) and give it more challenging bosses that actually have mechanics and phases. Ta-da, you have a Guild Wars 2 raid.

Erm no, what MMO’s in general need is less people stuffed away in instances. Anet designed a beautifully alive world, which is severely under utilized. Tweak the Big bosses to be more of a challenge and it will already be a lot better. FotM already did a crapload of damage to the world population and raids would only make that worse.

You want people out in the world for the sake of the whole community. A deserted world will only create a dead game in the end.

So no, raids are a very bad idea.

Conner.4702:

Erm no, what MMO’s in general need is less people stuffed away in instances. Anet designed a beautifully alive world, which is severely under utilized. Tweak the Big bosses to be more of a challenge and it will already be a lot better. FotM already did a crapload of damage to the world population and raids would only make that worse.

You want people out in the world for the sake of the whole community. A deserted world will only create a dead game in the end.

So no, raids are a very bad idea.

Know what? ArenaNet also makes beautiful instanced places, too. People level to get the endgame, and we need a better endgame to keep people around, or that’s what is going to kill this game. That’s why most people left, because there is no stick to this game when you reach the “end”.

What endgame needs, is a better reward system.

The current system with “only high DPS players get loot”, “reward chest exceeds all loot” and “force players into bigger bags with tons of unstackable crap” is just plain broken and enforces skipping. You only rush for the dungeon reward, the faster the better (doesn’t matter that you have spent 10 minutes looking for a group, just don’t waste a single second in the dungeon).

Yet another problem with endgame: Synergies are not part of the concept. You have a few scripted events in dungeons and world events where you have to split the team, but in combat there isn’t much of an synergy except for sharing passive buffs and sometimes some combos (where most of them are useless, DPS-wise). There is no such thing as effective tanking, only hitting the same targets while every player tries to evade the ridiculous amount of AoE-damage on his own. Not that scripted events or multi phase battles would be a bad thing, on the contrary, they are a nice addition and diversion from the monotonous monster bashing, but a game can’t be based on those alone.

Also you rarely have a chance to enjoy the world. It is always action loaded with the constant respawns, dodge mechanics etc. Even vistas and POI are rarely relaxing, since most of them are also protected by constantly respawning enemies in higher level areas. It feels, like Anet had to goal to “always have something happening on the screen”, despite your efforts to sort things out.

Never tried those raids but gw1 had over twice the amount of players for many dungeon so sup!? I want a 10 man dungeon and not in 2 years.

I have to agree with needing raids. And there was a time I was on Anet’s side to not have them. I think, like a lot of other people though I was associating raids with gear-grind, lockouts and long waits to organize.

But they really don’t need to be like that. Larger dungeons with a higher player cap (similar to Urgoz for GW1 vets) would suffice just as well.

The bottom line is there needs to be PvE content for larger groups of players that requires communication and planning. It would do worlds to improve guild interaction.

WvW guilds do really well and have a tighter member base because they can form together in a squad, get on voice chat, strategize and take on challenging objectives that are large or small against other players.

There is nothing in PvE that calls for that. So PvE guilds end up with players that solo most of the time while maybe having a dungeon group or two going that they are cycling people in and out of to try and involve everyone.

Even the dungeons, with exception to Arah and one of the CoF paths can be done with an entire pug group that never has to say one word to one another.

Give us a 12 man underworld that is hard as balls with the Fractal death system and you will have more pVe players more involved with each other and an actual in game reason to interact with your guildmates.

Hell, even just extend the party size for Arah to eight. It will make the explorable paths a bit easier and faster, but they are already unapproachable to most players as is. You would have more people experiencing the content, with a larger group of their friends, doing something in a reasonable amount of time, that is still challenging and requires players interacting with each other instead of a small group of players now that just use terrain glitching for chest farming.

GW2 needs an Urgoz. Or the dual party instances from factions. Something.

Edit:
This post is made understanding entirely that the game is just barely over four months old. In software development four months is barely any time at all in regard to producing something worthwhile. The design process alone for the type of thing we are discussing could take a month, and the art could take longer. Modifying the tools to allow for raids would probably take less time (because programmers are more efficient than artists :p ). The live team actually did amazing turning out the holiday events in as little time as they had.

I hope everyone keeps that in mind when considering these types of things. Anet was against raids and wanted to keep party sizes at 5. Now that they have seen the game in the wild, how people are playing, how it is received, and the state of PvE and guilds I hope they reconsider some of those original intentions.

It would not be totally out of Areanet’s nature to implement instanced content which surpassed the standard party amount. I mean if you look back at GW1 essentially we had raids (12-Man) in the form Urgoz Warren and The Deep, Both were incredibly fun and incredibly long. And neither of them implemented a “Gear Treadmill”.

Martin The Brave.8731:

It would not be totally out of Areanet’s nature to implement instanced content which surpassed the standard party amount. I mean if you look back at GW1 essentially we had raids (12-Man) in the form Urgoz Warren and The Deep, Both were incredibly fun and incredibly long. And neither of them implemented a “Gear Treadmill”.

And now with vertical progression becoming a major focus in GW2, there’s no reason not to use raid instances(like Urgoz/Deep) to give the large majority of players what they want: a real challenge and meaningful rewards.

Feeling bad for the scrubs and bads who cannot get into those raids and therefore attain the gear? Easy: Just make the gear a timed exclusive to the raid, and allow non-dedicated players to attain it via non-raid means at the same time you introduce a new and better raid/gear tier. That way scrubs won’t cry about inaccessibility, and the dedicated player will always have the privilege of staying one step ahead than the rest.
The treadmill has to be facilitated in this game; players always need a goal worth working for. Skin and titles don’t satisfy a enough players that can keep the game alive, both financially and in a communal sense. GW1 was not a real MMO and could get away with it, GW2 can’t.

ASB.4295:

Martin The Brave.8731:

It would not be totally out of Areanet’s nature to implement instanced content which surpassed the standard party amount. I mean if you look back at GW1 essentially we had raids (12-Man) in the form Urgoz Warren and The Deep, Both were incredibly fun and incredibly long. And neither of them implemented a “Gear Treadmill”.

And now with vertical progression becoming a major focus in GW2, there’s no reason not to use raid instances(like Urgoz/Deep) to give the large majority of players what they want: a real challenge and meaningful rewards.

Feeling bad for the scrubs and bads who cannot get into those raids and therefore attain the gear? Easy: Just make the gear a timed exclusive to the raid, and allow non-dedicated players to attain it via non-raid means at the same time you introduce a new and better raid/gear tier. That way scrubs won’t cry about inaccessibility, and the dedicated player will always have the privilege of staying one step ahead than the rest.
The treadmill has to be facilitated in this game; players always need a goal worth working for. Skin and titles don’t satisfy a enough players that can keep the game alive, both financially and in a communal sense. GW1 was not a real MMO and could get away with it, GW2 can’t.

I doubt they would implement anything other than rare skins,or new runes,sigils etc. As the whole tier system seems to be counter intuitive to continual progress as all armor and or weapons on that tier have a flat rate. Which doesn’t allow continual progression, Unless of course they add another tier(assuming they don’t do so every 3 months). Also I think a large majority of their fan-base would very displeased to see a “Gear Treadmill”, But ofcourse Raids do not have to introduce them. At the end of the day I support Raids, and Whatever Arenanet decides to do with them I’ll most likely be ok with it.

ASB.4295:

Feeling bad for the scrubs and bads who cannot get into those raids and therefore attain the gear? Easy: Just make the gear a timed exclusive to the raid, and allow non-dedicated players to attain it via non-raid means at the same time you introduce a new and better raid/gear tier. That way scrubs won’t cry about inaccessibility, and the dedicated player will always have the privilege of staying one step ahead than the rest

This is exactly the type of attitude showing why I hope they never allow raids. All it does is set the community against each other.

I hate seeing this stuff in threads related to GW2.
It’s as bad as people crying for mounts.

Raids aren’t needed.
Instances have virtually nothing to do with a game being MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER.
You want raids, there are plenty of games that already provide you with sticks to scratch that itch.
Please do not continue trying to turn GW2 into something it shouldn’t be. You’ve already had your way with Ascended Gear.

Oh and as for the massive open-world meta events being easy and uncoordinated messes, yeah, that’s why Cathedral of Eternal Radiance is never contested. Oh, wait.

More stuff like this please.
No raid content thanks.

Mungrul.9358:

I hate seeing this stuff in threads related to GW2.
It’s as bad as people crying for mounts.

Raids aren’t needed.
Instances have virtually nothing to do with a game being MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER.
You want raids, there are plenty of games that already provide you with sticks to scratch that itch.
Please do not continue trying to turn GW2 into something it shouldn’t be. You’ve already had your way with Ascended Gear.

Oh and as for the massive open-world meta events being easy and uncoordinated messes, yeah, that’s why Cathedral of Eternal Radiance is never contested. Oh, wait.

More stuff like this please.
No raid content thanks.

what do i need to do in endgame?

ohwai…

camping main citys.

Then you’re playing a different game to me. I’m always exploring, making alts, playing a little WvW, doing a dungeon here and there, crafting gear, etc.
There’s plenty to keep me occupied.

Your endgame is not my endgame.
Your idea of what endgame should be is close-minded and conservative and guided by your experiences with other games which you’d rather GW2 was.

domxnik.1453:

cesmode.4257:

Two words: Gear treadmill. If they put in raids, Id imagine they would put some sort of gear treadmill to keep players running through the raid each night and each week for better gear. Itll be just like WoW and any other MMO. I play this game because it isnt like every other MMO. Granted, the recent Item treadmill that was introduced is a step in the wrong direction. But if they put in raids, god help us all. Id probably stop playing and go raid with friends in that other game.

Not true. People just think that because of previous games. If they put in raiding it would be how dungeons are, but more challenging, allow more people and be longer and not so faceroll.

Beating a boss would drop a chest. Inside would be random gear, possibly some mats and tokens to turn in for weapon and armor skins. They could possibly even add harder difficulties and have different looking weapon and armor skins for each one.

Given this company’s recent direction…do you think they will limit reward to just skins and not a new tier of gear?

Mungrul.9358:

Then you’re playing a different game to me. I’m always exploring, making alts, playing a little WvW, doing a dungeon here and there, crafting gear, etc.
There’s plenty to keep me occupied.

Your endgame is not my endgame.
Your idea of what endgame should be is close-minded and conservative and guided by your experiences with other games which you’d rather GW2 was.

No. its nice how it is. im just asking , it would be nice to have something ELSE.

There are already about 15 raid bosses in the world.
They could use improvement and whatnot, but they are there already.

And no, you won’t see raids done the Blizzard way, this is Arena Net and thanks for that.

Travail.7390:

Sylv.5324:

Conwolv.4329:

The only player that doesn’t really have a solid foothold in this game is the Raider.

There is a reason for that. Please stop changing one of the core views of this game. The lack of raiding and catering to raiders, the rejection of that exclusive attitude, is WHY many of us came here.

Unsurprisingly, y’all raiders feel so entitled that you feel the need to demand that ANet go against its own manifesto.

I knew this would happen as soon as they introduced fractals. -.-

Asking for raids is not the same as asking for the game to cater ENTIRELY to raiders. That’s a baseless assertion.

People in this thread need to grow up and start having an intelligent conversation about the prospect of raids.As it is, the people against raids are acting like children, throwing temper tantrums because they’re afraid mommy might love the new baby more.

It’s entirely possible to implement raids without the gear grind that so often accompanies them. They’ve implemented PvP without any sort of gear grind. They implemented end-game dungeons while allowing players to obtain the same loot outside of those dungeons.

They can do the same thing with raids, too, and what’s more, I haven’t seen even a single player ask them to do it differently in this thread. Perhaps if others weren’t so blindly defensive over the issue, they’d see that.

-Travail.

Wow…all of the people against raids are children. Thats pretty arrogant of you. You would fit in with the rest of us that are against raids

domxnik.1453:

Conner.4702:

Erm no, what MMO’s in general need is less people stuffed away in instances. Anet designed a beautifully alive world, which is severely under utilized. Tweak the Big bosses to be more of a challenge and it will already be a lot better. FotM already did a crapload of damage to the world population and raids would only make that worse.

You want people out in the world for the sake of the whole community. A deserted world will only create a dead game in the end.

So no, raids are a very bad idea.

Know what? ArenaNet also makes beautiful instanced places, too. People level to get the endgame, and we need a better endgame to keep people around, or that’s what is going to kill this game. That’s why most people left, because there is no stick to this game when you reach the “end”.

Most people havent left, the world is full of people (and I would know, I am leveling my fifth character to 80 and theres never a shortage of people doing events…never), and if you and everyone else that is pro-raid did you research on the game, you would know that this is NOT a direction that arenanet wants to go. No stick, no raids. Even if they did put in raids, I highly doubt it will be limited to unique cosmetic skins. I firmly believe they will throw ascended gear in there, which puts this game closer to any other MMO.

cesmode.4257:

domxnik.1453:

Conner.4702:

Erm no, what MMO’s in general need is less people stuffed away in instances. Anet designed a beautifully alive world, which is severely under utilized. Tweak the Big bosses to be more of a challenge and it will already be a lot better. FotM already did a crapload of damage to the world population and raids would only make that worse.

You want people out in the world for the sake of the whole community. A deserted world will only create a dead game in the end.

So no, raids are a very bad idea.

Know what? ArenaNet also makes beautiful instanced places, too. People level to get the endgame, and we need a better endgame to keep people around, or that’s what is going to kill this game. That’s why most people left, because there is no stick to this game when you reach the “end”.

Most people havent left, the world is full of people (and I would know, I am leveling my fifth character to 80 and theres never a shortage of people doing events…never), and if you and everyone else that is pro-raid did you research on the game, you would know that this is NOT a direction that arenanet wants to go. No stick, no raids. Even if they did put in raids, I highly doubt it will be limited to unique cosmetic skins. I firmly believe they will throw ascended gear in there, which puts this game closer to any other MMO.

i gotta agree here.

on blacktide my server i see ALOT OF PEOPLE running. everywhere i go i cee LOADS of people..
Im just hoping this game wont die bcuz of lack of endgame.
yes i know what endgame means. please stop explaining it.

Drapar.1589:

No. its nice how it is. im just asking , it would be nice to have something ELSE.

Your first comment implied all there was to do at endgame was sit in Lion’s Arch.
Now you’re saying that’s not the case. Could it be you were being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative and were actually painting a false picture of the game?

Im curious what all of the pro-raid folks thought the end game would be when they purchased GW2. Or did you think you could eventually influence Arenanet to cater to your needs(the progression-style endgame that most of the MMO community likes)?

Whether or not arenanet always had plans to put in ascended gear(which they did), theres your progression via fractals. This already PO’d so many people. Isnt this enough for you guys?

cesmode.4257:

Im curious what all of the pro-raid folks thought the end game would be when they purchased GW2. Or did you think you could eventually influence Arenanet to cater to your needs(the progression-style endgame that most of the MMO community likes)?

Whether or not arenanet always had plans to put in ascended gear(which they did), theres your progression via fractals. This already PO’d so many people. Isnt this enough for you guys?

we.. want… moar..

we.. want… moar..

Nuka Cola.8520:

Never tried those raids but gw1 had over twice the amount of players for many dungeon so sup!? I want a 10 man dungeon and not in 2 years.

This. AT LEAST this.

cesmode.4257:

Im curious what all of the pro-raid folks thought the end game would be when they purchased GW2. Or did you think you could eventually influence Arenanet to cater to your needs(the progression-style endgame that most of the MMO community likes)?

Whether or not arenanet always had plans to put in ascended gear(which they did), theres your progression via fractals. This already PO’d so many people. Isnt this enough for you guys?

Point 1: There is no way that I believed ArenaNet wouldn’t have some type of content for guilds, in the form of at least large-scale instances. Or progression. It’s like we’re living in an alternate reality – “COME PLAY GUILD WARS WHERE YOU WILL NEVER SEE YOUR GUILD!”

Point 2: See point 1. 5 people aren’t a guild. They’re on the right track with fractals but they need a) more progression and b) larger numbers (minimum of 10 players, preferably 20 or above.)

A dungeon you open when you own a certain spot in WvW…… Darkness Rising anyone?:D

I’ve been a fervent raider in WoW, up to hardcore (hard/heroic modes), up to 4 days a week. And that’s exactly why I don’t want raids in this game.
Elitist, scheduled content, which ends being like a second job, has no place in a video game people play for fun.
5 man content like fractals, which is a huge improvement over the old dungeons (which are going to be revamped), is perfect. It’s accessible, a group can be formed “on the fly” without having to schedule your life around the game.
Want to raid? Play “pandaland”. You can raid there, and still play GW2 since there’s no subscription. But I don’t want this game ruined by that kind of “end game” content.
This game needs to stay on track with its manifesto. They need to add more content in the open world, things like housing you can decorate, mounts you can collect, fishing, mini games like the keg brawl one, open world bosses, etc…, and not more instanced stuff.

Zeldain.5710:

cesmode.4257:

Im curious what all of the pro-raid folks thought the end game would be when they purchased GW2. Or did you think you could eventually influence Arenanet to cater to your needs(the progression-style endgame that most of the MMO community likes)?

Whether or not arenanet always had plans to put in ascended gear(which they did), theres your progression via fractals. This already PO’d so many people. Isnt this enough for you guys?

Point 1: There is no way that I believed ArenaNet wouldn’t have some type of content for guilds, in the form of at least large-scale instances. Or progression. It’s like we’re living in an alternate reality – “COME PLAY GUILD WARS WHERE YOU WILL NEVER SEE YOUR GUILD!”

Point 2: See point 1. 5 people aren’t a guild. They’re on the right track with fractals but they need a) more progression and b) larger numbers (minimum of 10 players, preferably 20 or above.)

Well, let me show you the door to exit GW2 and the door to enter WoW. Anet has not ruled out 10 mans, but they do not want raids. I dont see why the playerbase feels they could change this.

Fastbucks.5073:

A dungeon you open when you own a certain spot in WvW…… Darkness Rising anyone?:D

This would be neat. Sort of like Wintersgrasp or Baradin Hold in that other game. Hell, Id even make a push for a 10 man dungeon here. Just not a raid with superior gear in terms of stats. Just unique skins. Thats it. No progression in terms of stats. None.

Edit: Actually this idea is fantastic. It would be two fold: Give servers real incentive to go into WvW, work together to capture certain points for unique dungeons. It would open up the game for the guilds that want some organized content. The only thing that I can see that arenanet would need to be weary of is that servers might ONLY focus on these specific capture points and ignore the rest of WvW. This would be bad. Maybe have a requirement of controlling X amount of the map, or something like that in addition to these specific points for the dungeon.

But it is a great idea and Im all for it.

Chase.8415:

Raids aren’t good for this game for several reasons:

A. It promotes class composition, forcing friends and guilds to abandon certain people because they weren’t a guardian, for example.

B. The graphics of the game is higher than the normal standard and with the amount of combat there is in the game with having to dodge and everything, would be a FPS nigmare.

C. This game is intended to be a bridge between casual and hardcore. I am a casual myself for example, playing about 2 hours a day. When you implement raids, they generally take HOURS to complete. Not only that, you have to schedule several players and HOPE they show up on time.

D. It indirectly destroy small guilds, because no one will even attempt to wait out until the guild gets slightly larger before raiding. Currently, small guilds like mine can progress. My guild for example has 8 members and we are at LvL 20 FOTM.

Not to mention the 5 man content is difficult in itself, I don’t see a reason what makes a difference.

What a load of rubbish. The fact that this game has no trinity means that raids would be easier to implement/organise as there would be no reason to accept/decline one class over another !

ASB.4295:

And now with vertical progression becoming a major focus in GW2, there’s no reason not to use raid instances(like Urgoz/Deep) to give the large majority of players what they want: a real challenge and meaningful rewards.

Feeling bad for the scrubs and bads who cannot get into those raids and therefore attain the gear? Easy: Just make the gear a timed exclusive to the raid, and allow non-dedicated players to attain it via non-raid means at the same time you introduce a new and better raid/gear tier. That way scrubs won’t cry about inaccessibility, and the dedicated player will always have the privilege of staying one step ahead than the rest.
The treadmill has to be facilitated in this game; players always need a goal worth working for. Skin and titles don’t satisfy a enough players that can keep the game alive, both financially and in a communal sense. GW1 was not a real MMO and could get away with it, GW2 can’t.

Your both wrong and have a bad attitude. We true raiders do not want to exclude non raiders from anything. We only want the large scale difficult fights. We want the content not the carrot.

People with different preferences are not scrubs, they are just people like you and me. They just dont have the time or the patience to raid and that is fine. The game should cater to them just as much as to us.

Sylv.5324:

ASB.4295:

Feeling bad for the scrubs and bads who cannot get into those raids and therefore attain the gear? Easy: Just make the gear a timed exclusive to the raid, and allow non-dedicated players to attain it via non-raid means at the same time you introduce a new and better raid/gear tier. That way scrubs won’t cry about inaccessibility, and the dedicated player will always have the privilege of staying one step ahead than the rest

This is exactly the type of attitude showing why I hope they never allow raids. All it does is set the community against each other.

One person out of 2 pages. I think the majority in fact do not believe in what he said.

You could grab the commander title and have a group take on a temple of the gods. You can even argue that there should be more content in the PERSISTANT world that requires complex coordination of lots of people.

Or you could make an argument for dungeons that require two 5-man teams to coordinate with each other.

However, I don’t think that GW2 should simply slap on raids. It’s better to offer something unique rather than go blow for blow with more established games.

Wait why am i seeing several people so much against raiding then say 10 man dungeons would be fine? Is there some confusion here. All a raid is, is a group made up of multiplae parties. So anytrhing above 5 people is a raid.

A raid is not defined by gear grind, locked off content or exclusive gear. All these are added to raids. They do not define the raid.

Ubung.7423:

One person out of 2 pages. I think the majority in fact do not believe in what he said.

And yet most of the raiders I’ve come across, including the high-end raiding guilds I’ve been in, are like this.

Just because a few of you are nice doesn’t mean that’s not what this game will turn into, just like every other raider community. You already saw some of that in GW1 with the areas that required bigger parties, as well as some of the higher-end exclusive PvP areas. Everyone who didn’t get in on things at the beginning fell behind, and between the ‘you guys are all scrubs!!1’ and no one wanting to help folks, it just aggravated the divide. Same on WoW, etc etc etc.

ANet took a courageous stance when it limited groups to five and refused to add bigger group content. It’s very egalitarian and I don’t want group size to further fragment a community already damaged by fractals.

I would love to see more complex open-world stuff happen. But please, ANet, not large-group instanced stuff. Please stick to your guns and please stay true to that manifesto, at least in some ways. T_T

Ubung.7423:

Wait why am i seeing several people so much against raiding then say 10 man dungeons would be fine? Is there some confusion here. All a raid is, is a group made up of multiplae parties. So anytrhing above 5 people is a raid.

A raid is not defined by gear grind, locked off content or exclusive gear. All these are added to raids. They do not define the raid.

I’ve revised my opinion to want everything to stay five-man just because of the insistence of raiders in changing one of the core tenets of the game. This game decided to try to be different and reject the issues that come along with requiring larger groups to clear content.

Vorch.2985:

You could grab the commander title and have a group take on a temple of the gods. You can even argue that there should be more content in the PERSISTANT world that requires complex coordination of lots of people.

Or you could make an argument for dungeons that require two 5-man teams to coordinate with each other.

However, I don’t think that GW2 should simply slap on raids. It’s better to offer something unique rather than go blow for blow with more established games.

Instanced Dynamic Events would be a unique raiding proposition. Imagine a raid where parts of it affected other parts. So for example if you put down some extra mobs in a side area at the start it cuts of reinforcements for the third boss. Or the resources of a mine can be rerouted to your party so you can make a boss easier.

As for the outdoor stuff i dont think they can make it difficult enough whilst keeping it inclusionary for the outdoor world people. Whether or not its instanced your still saying to people cant just join in and help.

Zeldain.5710:

Krosslite.1950:

This game has open raids which folks refuse to even attempt to figure out. There are 1500+ DEs which are open world raids.

Have you made any attempt to solve these? Especially in Orr?

Here’s the strat for every open world event in this game:

1) Show up
2) Die
3) Zerg
4) Loot

In other words, open world events cannot contain the mechanics, strategy, detail or challenge that a large-scale guild-focused encounter can, where communication and coordination can be expected and required.

you can still make guild-focused attempted with communication and coordination. No one is doing this.

They refuse.

You can still get a core group setup with this. This is required to truly get figure out Orr and get the legendaries that wait to be found.

Again I see people continue to ask for a system that promotes elitist. That exclude and discriminate.

I challenge the large guilds to make core DE raid groups. So you have people that are not in the core coming in and going out. Let them. That is how this game is designed to be played. Use their zerg to help you defeat the DE and then move on the the next stage of the meta-event web.

I have heard none that are doing this or even trying.

Stop crying for the old when you haven’t even attempted to truly figure out the new. The goal of GW2 is to share with everyone. Not have elitist groups like other games have and encourage.

Again it is not the game. It is those playing the game that are the problem. The game is fine.

With 1500+ DEs most of which are in Orr. There is a ton to do that has not been done.

So stop asking for stuff the game really already has and do it.

cesmode.4257:

Zeldain.5710:

cesmode.4257:

Im curious what all of the pro-raid folks thought the end game would be when they purchased GW2. Or did you think you could eventually influence Arenanet to cater to your needs(the progression-style endgame that most of the MMO community likes)?

Whether or not arenanet always had plans to put in ascended gear(which they did), theres your progression via fractals. This already PO’d so many people. Isnt this enough for you guys?

Point 1: There is no way that I believed ArenaNet wouldn’t have some type of content for guilds, in the form of at least large-scale instances. Or progression. It’s like we’re living in an alternate reality – “COME PLAY GUILD WARS WHERE YOU WILL NEVER SEE YOUR GUILD!”

Point 2: See point 1. 5 people aren’t a guild. They’re on the right track with fractals but they need a) more progression and b) larger numbers (minimum of 10 players, preferably 20 or above.)

Well, let me show you the door to exit GW2 and the door to enter WoW. Anet has not ruled out 10 mans, but they do not want raids. I dont see why the playerbase feels they could change this.

I think I know the answer… it is mechanics and group coordination. I dare say that most of the current content, be it current dungeons or open-world, does not require a lot of either. I believe when the players say, “We want raids!”, they actually want complicated/fun fights that requires a larger group of players to coordinate with each-other and actually think about what they’re doing. A lot of the current content could fill this void, but doesn’t in execution… IE zerg fest/corpse run.

Ubung.7423:

Instanced Dynamic Events would be a unique raiding proposition.

Why instanced? Why ruin the massive multiplayer by turning the game into a lobby games where people wait to do dungeons?

They need to add more complex events IN THE OPEN WORLD. If one really needs that “raid” fix, he can find it in other games, and still play GW2 too thanks to its subscription model.

Because ‘instanced’ makes it exclusive. If they weren’t trying to make content and reward exclusive to ONLY a large, coordinated (re: guild) group, they’d just ask for more complex open-world stuff.

JSmooth.7654:

cesmode.4257:

Zeldain.5710:

cesmode.4257:

Im curious what all of the pro-raid folks thought the end game would be when they purchased GW2. Or did you think you could eventually influence Arenanet to cater to your needs(the progression-style endgame that most of the MMO community likes)?

Whether or not arenanet always had plans to put in ascended gear(which they did), theres your progression via fractals. This already PO’d so many people. Isnt this enough for you guys?

Point 1: There is no way that I believed ArenaNet wouldn’t have some type of content for guilds, in the form of at least large-scale instances. Or progression. It’s like we’re living in an alternate reality – “COME PLAY GUILD WARS WHERE YOU WILL NEVER SEE YOUR GUILD!”

Point 2: See point 1. 5 people aren’t a guild. They’re on the right track with fractals but they need a) more progression and b) larger numbers (minimum of 10 players, preferably 20 or above.)

Well, let me show you the door to exit GW2 and the door to enter WoW. Anet has not ruled out 10 mans, but they do not want raids. I dont see why the playerbase feels they could change this.

I think I know the answer… it is mechanics and group coordination. I dare say that most of the current content, be it current dungeons or open-world, does not require a lot of either. I believe when the players say, “We want raids!”, they actually want complicated/fun fights that requires a larger group of players to coordinate with each-other and actually think about what they’re doing. A lot of the current content could fill this void, but doesn’t in execution… IE zerg fest/corpse run.

Indeed we do, thank you. I understand peoples fears of it turning into another wow but thats not what most of us want despite what people may have seen.

Ubung.7423:

Vorch.2985:

You could grab the commander title and have a group take on a temple of the gods. You can even argue that there should be more content in the PERSISTANT world that requires complex coordination of lots of people.

Or you could make an argument for dungeons that require two 5-man teams to coordinate with each other.

However, I don’t think that GW2 should simply slap on raids. It’s better to offer something unique rather than go blow for blow with more established games.

Instanced Dynamic Events would be a unique raiding proposition. Imagine a raid where parts of it affected other parts. So for example if you put down some extra mobs in a side area at the start it cuts of reinforcements for the third boss. Or the resources of a mine can be rerouted to your party so you can make a boss easier.

As for the outdoor stuff i dont think they can make it difficult enough whilst keeping it inclusionary for the outdoor world people. Whether or not its instanced your still saying to people cant just join in and help.

I’d actually like to see them add more difficult elements into the persistent world and see what happens. I don’t think it would alienate people; rather, it would provide those who want a more challenging experience what they need.

There is no need for large group content to be instanced, imo. That is the most exclusionary concept of raids.

Vorch.2985:

There is no need for large group content to be instanced, imo. That is the most exclusionary concept of raids.

Exactly. 5 man dungeons are fine with the GW2 model which doesn’t have that kitten trinity. What they need to do is to add more dungeons like Fractals, and upgrade the other dungeons so all bosses have interesting mechanics like the Fractals ones.
Keep the large group content in the open world. Hell, add more non-instanced dungeons in the open world. I’m not talking about jumping puzzles here, but dungeons you have to fight through but where everybody can enter. Remember EQ when it came out? Raids were not instanced. AC1 had no instanced dungeons at all. Yet those games managed to still add very challenging content.
WoW is not the only MMORPG, and also not the first one. There’s more than grinding instances to a MMORPG.

JSmooth.7654:

I think I know the answer… it is mechanics and group coordination. I dare say that most of the current content, be it current dungeons or open-world, does not require a lot of either. I believe when the players say, “We want raids!”, they actually want complicated/fun fights that requires a larger group of players to coordinate with each-other and actually think about what they’re doing. A lot of the current content could fill this void, but doesn’t in execution… IE zerg fest/corpse run.

ANet has shown with Fractals that they can make 5 man content that requires group coordination. There’s no need for more people.
Actually, challenging 5 man content without the ability to “rez zerg”, like Fractals, can be way harder than any 10 or 25 man raid, because with only 5 men, everyone has more weight and any mistakes way bigger repercussions. If 1 guy out of 25 dies, it’s usually no big deal… If 1 guy out of 5 dies, the group just lost 20% of its members, which has a much bigger impact on the battle.

Korrigan.4837:

Ubung.7423:

Instanced Dynamic Events would be a unique raiding proposition.

Why instanced? Why ruin the massive multiplayer by turning the game into a lobby games where people wait to do dungeons?

They need to add more complex events IN THE OPEN WORLD. If one really needs that “raid” fix, he can find it in other games, and still play GW2 too thanks to its subscription model.

Fair question. This is because anything open world can be joined in by anyone. Whether they be a fresh lvl 80 or an experienced dungeoner. For the content to be challenging enough the fear of failure must be a large part. So when someone new to 80 comes a long and does things wrong (no hate for him, hes just new) he will cause the event to fail. Therefore the challenge of the encounter is very random depending on who joins.

Vorch.2985:

There is no need for large group content to be instanced, imo. That is the most exclusionary concept of raids.

There are already dungeons that do this. All were asking is to make the groups inside them larger so we dont have to split up.

Sylv im just not gonna respond to you now becuase you seem adamant in trying to put words into my mouth. I have made my feelings clear in this and several other threads.

Ubung.7423:

Wait why am i seeing several people so much against raiding then say 10 man dungeons would be fine? Is there some confusion here. All a raid is, is a group made up of multiplae parties. So anytrhing above 5 people is a raid.

A raid is not defined by gear grind, locked off content or exclusive gear. All these are added to raids. They do not define the raid.

I am against raiding because of what follows. I am OK with 10 mans because most guilds could form a group to experience the content, even very small ones. If the content was made for 20 or 25 people, this then forces the player to be part of a larger guild if he/she wants to experience the content. Limiting it to 10 is perfectly sound.

I am against raids in general because what follows is a gear treadmill, more powerful items only obtainable via raids, it encourages the elitist progressives which in my opinion is not what this game is about… If arenanet put in a 10 man raid with only unique skins, no stat upgrades at all, I would be OK with it. If the skins were purely skins, no stats at all…

25 man raiding in WoW is already dead.

People are talking about 10-man raiding.

I think putting 10-man dungeons in GW2 is fine. Same gear as 5-mans, add some difficulty and mechanics and voila.

Hell, if you want to shortcut, just make 10-man explorables of the current dungeons and the fractals to start off with, and see how that goes down with the players.

cesmode.4257:

Ubung.7423:

Wait why am i seeing several people so much against raiding then say 10 man dungeons would be fine? Is there some confusion here. All a raid is, is a group made up of multiplae parties. So anytrhing above 5 people is a raid.

A raid is not defined by gear grind, locked off content or exclusive gear. All these are added to raids. They do not define the raid.

I am against raiding because of what follows. I am OK with 10 mans because most guilds could form a group to experience the content, even very small ones. If the content was made for 20 or 25 people, this then forces the player to be part of a larger guild if he/she wants to experience the content. Limiting it to 10 is perfectly sound.

I am against raids in general because what follows is a gear treadmill, more powerful items only obtainable via raids, it encourages the elitist progressives which in my opinion is not what this game is about… If arenanet put in a 10 man raid with only unique skins, no stat upgrades at all, I would be OK with it. If the skins were purely skins, no stats at all…

Fair enough. Tbh whatever group sizes they offer 10 should be one of them. Its 2 x a normal group so it aint too hard to fill. I think they should put in two group sizes, 10 and 20. As for the other issues with raiding your right ive already accepted that. They dont need to be in the game to add raids. I will happily fight alongside you guys to keep that out of the game.

Also the content can be reused from other parts of the game and just tuned for larger groups. Both instanced DE’s and 10 / 20 man dungeons would provide what we want while still allowing other people to access the content in either the outer world or the 5 man versions.