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Posted by: VideoGamermike.5813

VideoGamermike.5813

I’ve been getting into selling at the trading post, and find a few items are so stupidly expensive(or stupidly cheap) I refuse to sell at those prices. (I.E I wont sell a shredsd rag for over a silver, thats ridiculous, as is a Cinnamon stick for 2 bronze) But when I go to set my own price and hit sell, it just sells at market value. Is this suppose to happen? I don’t want to sell at these insane values, so whats going on, why wont my custom value do anything?

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Posted by: hedition.7261

hedition.7261

You cannot sell lower than the highest offered price.

If someone wanna offer 1s for your shredded rag, you can’t go sell it at 50 copper. That rag will automatically be sold to the highest offer and you get your silver.

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Posted by: SkyFallsInThunder.8257

SkyFallsInThunder.8257

Besides, the shredded rag has that price for a reason – it can be salvaged for valuable mats, hence the higher price.

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Posted by: Behellagh.1468

Behellagh.1468

Plus you can’t go bellow vendor price plus 1 copper. But if the item doesn’t have a vendor price, you can enter bids for 1c.

We are heroes. This is what we do!

RIP City of Heroes

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Posted by: VideoGamermike.5813

VideoGamermike.5813

Well…thats basically a “never use this place again.”
Seriously this is insane, the only salvage you can get from this thing is a copper ore, and the item itself is the single most common salvage item I have gotten in this game(I’ve been to four started areas now,) how an item can be worth three times the cost of what you get from salvaging it is beyond me.

But yeah, I am not going to use a system where I am forced to sell for some insane overinflated BS price just because, thats both a terrible economy, and something I don’t plan on participating in.

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Posted by: mtpelion.4562

mtpelion.4562

Well…thats basically a “never use this place again.”
Seriously this is insane, the only salvage you can get from this thing is a copper ore, and the item itself is the single most common salvage item I have gotten in this game(I’ve been to four started areas now,) how an item can be worth three times the cost of what you get from salvaging it is beyond me.

But yeah, I am not going to use a system where I am forced to sell for some insane overinflated BS price just because, thats both a terrible economy, and something I don’t plan on participating in.

Shredded Rags give between 1 and 3 Jute Scraps when salvaged.

Jute Scraps are using in crafting and are currently trading for 95c.

That means that your average Shredded Rag when salvaged would be worth 1s42c (95c * 1.5 (average of 1 to 3, weighted towards 1) based on the Jute Scraps you’d get. The current price on the Trading Post of 1s44c matches this.

I think it should be pointed out that you are not forced to do anything. You have the option of destroying, salvaging and using, or vendoring those scraps. Your choice to hurt yourself by not selling at the current price due to your misunderstanding of basic economic principles is a self-inflicted problem that we won’t be able to assist you with.

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(edited by mtpelion.4562)

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Posted by: VideoGamermike.5813

VideoGamermike.5813

Pelion, -you- dont understand basic economics. Economics isn’t about finding the absolute max you can make a profit on, thats not how real trade works, despite what some fools may think.

1) Jute scrapes worth 95 copper? come on man, thats completely ridiculous, I can get 20 of those in 20 minutes, and you wanna justify that price? give me a break. Copper you might be able to justify as 30+ bronze because its time based and thusly more limited, but 95 is just insane.

2) Now, let me give you the most basic thing you can get. ITEMS PRICES ARE BASED ON THE COST IT HAS TO GET THEM, NOT MARKET VALUE. Market value is a good indicator, not a price point. Jutes are not that rare, they can be made form a ton of the most common items in the entire game. The salvage trophies that have these are enormously common, I have salavaged more copper from shredded garments than I have harvested(not included copper veins.)
Now, since jute scraps are gotton from salavage, their price should be based on what they are refined from, not the other way around. (B in this case is a more refined form of A, so A is the price setter, not B ) So…what would you charge for one of the most common item in the game? Do I need to keep going. Again, this item is so easy to get, no one in their right mind would feel -good- selling this thing.
So yes, You’ll forgive me if I take my common sense, critical thinking, and knowledge of market that understands what market value actually is(NOT a price setter), somewhere where I don’t have to feel guilty everytime I sell something.

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Posted by: mtpelion.4562

mtpelion.4562

Everything is worth what the purchaser is willing to pay for it.

People are offering to GIVE you 95c for each of your Jute Scraps, therefore your Jute Scraps are worth 95c.

EDIT: Also, copper ore never drops from Shredded Rags. Ever.
If you’ve experienced that, you should report it as a bug.

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Posted by: Smooth Penguin.5294

Smooth Penguin.5294

Pelion, -you- dont understand basic economics.

This comment. Best comment ever. I can’t wait for John to rip this guy to shreds.

Well, on second thought, I’ll start by adding the following:

“Economics is the social science that studies the behavior of individuals, groups, and organizations when they manage or use scarce resources, which have alternative uses, to achieve desired ends.”

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(edited by Smooth Penguin.5294)

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Posted by: Shades.4572

Shades.4572

Pelion, -you- dont understand basic economics. Economics isn’t about finding the absolute max you can make a profit on, thats not how real trade works, despite what some fools may think.

1) Jute scrapes worth 95 copper? come on man, thats completely ridiculous, I can get 20 of those in 20 minutes, and you wanna justify that price? give me a break. Copper you might be able to justify as 30+ bronze because its time based and thusly more limited, but 95 is just insane.

First off getting 20 in 20mins is like ~1s a minute which is nothing. There are far better things to do, such as a world boss and you get a rare that’s ~25silver +items, or dungeon which is ~30min for 50s +items.

Second jute is based on rng you have to get the drop from a mob, while copper ore is not. You can easily see on your map where copper is and you ALWAYS get copper when you harvest a copper node.

Third correct me if I’m wrong but a lvl 80 doesn’t get lvl 10 armor drops. So the only way a lvl 80 get’s jute is by farming the salvage items like the rags, so what we have to reroll a lower character to farm jutes….fat chance it’s not worth it.

2) Now, let me give you the most basic thing you can get. ITEMS PRICES ARE BASED ON THE COST IT HAS TO GET THEM, NOT MARKET VALUE.

No items are based off of what people are willing to pay for. Doesn’t matter how rare or how hard it is to get an item if people don’t like it or want it, it’s going to be cheaper then an item with the same rarity that people like.

Now, since jute scraps are gotton from salavage, their price should be based on what they are refined from, not the other way around. (B in this case is a more refined form of A, so A is the price setter, not B )

You are buying the said item for what you get not the item itself so you have it backwards. B would be the price setter since you are buying for B, not for the A. A better example would be bags you are buying the bag for the items in the bag, so the items found in the bag are the price setters. The cost of the bag will never be higher then the most expensive item in the bag and it will never be lower then the cheapest item in the bag it will be at an average cost of all the items in the bag. So the items in the bag are the price setters.

So…what would you charge for one of the most common item in the game? Do I need to keep going. Again, this item is so easy to get, no one in their right mind would feel -good- selling this thing.
So yes, You’ll forgive me if I take my common sense, critical thinking, and knowledge of market that understands what market value actually is(NOT a price setter), somewhere where I don’t have to feel guilty everytime I sell something.

1st off it’s only a common item for low level characters.
2nd there is a high demand for it since people with like 5 lvl 80s don’t feel like leveling alts they just power level them most of the way with crafting. I believe it was cinnamon you mentioned before which was 1c well that’s because it’s a common item and there is no demand so that makes sense.

You really shouldn’t have any guilt for selling an item for 1 silver. Jute is worth that ~1 silver to a lot of people just look at the number of bid offers. It’s simple marketing of supply and demand.

(edited by Shades.4572)

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Posted by: Malediktus.9250

Malediktus.9250

I am usually not a person who likes/defeneds the economy of this game, but the OP made me laugh,

1st person worldwide to reach 35,000 achievement points.

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Posted by: mtpelion.4562

mtpelion.4562

I am usually not a person who likes/defeneds the economy of this game, but the OP made me laugh,

Yeah, this is seriously the first time I’ve ever seen someone upset that people are trying to give him more money than he wants for something.

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Posted by: Mystic.5934

Mystic.5934

If you want to sell these for 50c each, give me a PM and we can deal.
I also extend this courtesy to any item you want to sell for half of what the TP wants to rob from people.

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Posted by: Schizo.1375

Schizo.1375

I’ll beat Mystic’s offer by going down to 1/4

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Posted by: mtpelion.4562

mtpelion.4562

I’ll make him truly happy and offer to pay him Vendor price.

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Posted by: John Smith.4610

John Smith.4610

Next

Well…thats basically a “never use this place again.”
Seriously this is insane, the only salvage you can get from this thing is a copper ore, and the item itself is the single most common salvage item I have gotten in this game(I’ve been to four started areas now,) how an item can be worth three times the cost of what you get from salvaging it is beyond me.

But yeah, I am not going to use a system where I am forced to sell for some insane overinflated BS price just because, thats both a terrible economy, and something I don’t plan on participating in.

Hey Videogamermike, not sure if you know me, but I’m John Smith and I’m the Economist here at Guild Wars 2. I think I may be able to explain some of your confusion.

It sounds like what you’re thinking about is the Labor Theory of Value, which is essentially an item’s value is defined by how long it takes to make or get. This is not an invalid theory, but it usually only holds up when the item in question doesn’t have substitutes or alternatives. In GW2, many of the items can be converted into another item and many of the items have multiple conversion into themselves. This means that there a many alternative ways to obtain a single item. This means that the value of all these items will be determined by the market, not by the value of labor since there isn’t a single value of labor involved.

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Posted by: Smooth Penguin.5294

Smooth Penguin.5294

Well…thats basically a “never use this place again.”
Seriously this is insane, the only salvage you can get from this thing is a copper ore, and the item itself is the single most common salvage item I have gotten in this game(I’ve been to four started areas now,) how an item can be worth three times the cost of what you get from salvaging it is beyond me.

But yeah, I am not going to use a system where I am forced to sell for some insane overinflated BS price just because, thats both a terrible economy, and something I don’t plan on participating in.

Hey Videogamermike, not sure if you know me, but I’m John Smith and I’m the Economist here at Guild Wars 2. I think I may be able to explain some of your confusion.

It sounds like what you’re thinking about is the Labor Theory of Value, which is essentially an item’s value is defined by how long it takes to make or get. This is not an invalid theory, but it usually only holds up when the item in question doesn’t have substitutes or alternatives. In GW2, many of the items can be converted into another item and many of the items have multiple conversion into themselves. This means that there a many alternative ways to obtain a single item. This means that the value of all these items will be determined by the market, not by the value of labor since there isn’t a single value of labor involved.

-1 point John. You were too professional with your response. Where’s the schizophrenic John we all know and love?

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Posted by: JustTrogdor.7892

JustTrogdor.7892

OP if you get a precursor drop from some random mob not requiring much work for you to get it look me up. I wouldn’t want you to sell it on the TP for market value. So I’ll be glad to help you out by allowing you to sell it to me for much less.

The Burninator

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Posted by: Vikkela.7261

Vikkela.7261

All materials required in crafting Ascended armour should be a good practical example of how people are willing to pay for things they want. Items that were worth nothing and considered junk suddenly multiplied in price after the release, yet the way of obtaining has not changed.
Then as soon as the cool new back item everyone wanted was released and people found out they need iron, it rocketed too. Even though you still get it the same way as before.
Sigils and runes should be the next thing after the big update with them.

9 Guardians later…

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Posted by: Cassocaster.4576

Cassocaster.4576

I see the OP has evaporated. Guess facing the scrutiny of the game’s chief economist and soothsayer was too much.

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Posted by: VideoGamermike.5813

VideoGamermike.5813

Well…thats basically a “never use this place again.”
Seriously this is insane, the only salvage you can get from this thing is a copper ore, and the item itself is the single most common salvage item I have gotten in this game(I’ve been to four started areas now,) how an item can be worth three times the cost of what you get from salvaging it is beyond me.

But yeah, I am not going to use a system where I am forced to sell for some insane overinflated BS price just because, thats both a terrible economy, and something I don’t plan on participating in.

Hey Videogamermike, not sure if you know me, but I’m John Smith and I’m the Economist here at Guild Wars 2. I think I may be able to explain some of your confusion.

It sounds like what you’re thinking about is the Labor Theory of Value, which is essentially an item’s value is defined by how long it takes to make or get. This is not an invalid theory, but it usually only holds up when the item in question doesn’t have substitutes or alternatives. In GW2, many of the items can be converted into another item and many of the items have multiple conversion into themselves. This means that there a many alternative ways to obtain a single item. This means that the value of all these items will be determined by the market, not by the value of labor since there isn’t a single value of labor involved.

Gives a standing Applause my god, someone who bothers to make argument without insulting people.
Sarcasm aside I do appreciate what you’re saying, and normally I understand market value, especially in a lot of items that dont have a specific use or price to them, like say cosmetics. Honestly, I didn’t know what the laber theory was, so this was a veyr interesting thing to research. But I think the point has been missed, though to be fair partly out of my own reaction.
I’m not angry about the economy. In fact, I don’t care about the price, at all, it’s worthless for me so I’ll just save my money and get it myself. The cost of quick jumps across Tyria is smaller than what I would have to pay in market(so to speak.) No, what I’m frustrated at, is what I’m forced to do.
These are items I’m more or less just throwing away as junk half the time, I wanted to put them in the market because there are likely players who aren’t a bit overstocked in copper like I am, so I figured I could throw out some cheap salvage for people who needed them, while still making a handy profit, a lot more than I would get in shops. Instead, I got pushed to sell my items at prices that in no way reflect that idea, or even how I got it. I feel like I’m being pushed into cheating people out of their money by means of ‘market value.’ THATS where my problem is, for those people who arent able to get many of those items and -only- get them from the market, yes, the market value is by essence, the only way they can think about a profit, but thats not me. I’m out getting these items, it takes no effort at all to get these items, there more or less -trash- to me.
See what I’m getting at? why should I be forced to sell at these prices when, I’m so far removed from the -reasons- for those prices, that I’m jsut robbing people blind. I feel like I’m cheating the game, myself, and others…because the market value says so. -thats- my problem. If I’m underselling because I want to..why not? Are we that afraid people purposely collapsing a market that we end up not letting people make what they consider to be fair trades? I don’t transmute my items, I dont need to, see where I’m getting at?

But I digress, thank you for the actual response, I just wish some of the players would have done so…rather than just insult me with on sentence…why even post if that’s all you’re going to do.

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Posted by: Vikkela.7261

Vikkela.7261

You’re obviously clicking something wrong in the trading post. You can sell for less than the market value unless it is as low as a vendor sells the item.

9 Guardians later…

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Posted by: Vol.7601

Vol.7601

Seriously OP, if you want to sell something cheaper than it is on the TP, send it to me. We can make a deal.

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Posted by: VincentDW.9376

VincentDW.9376

The OP makes an interesting point. In a free market, nothing prohibits an individual from acting in an economically (from the sense of maximizing personal wealth) irrational manner. People do things with their goods/money all the time for reasons other than maximizing the economic value they get from the transaction. Is there a compelling reason not to allow others the freedom to choose the prices at which they transact, even if those prices are different from the ones you would choose to transact at?

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Posted by: Smooth Penguin.5294

Smooth Penguin.5294

These are items I’m more or less just throwing away as junk half the time, I wanted to put them in the market because there are likely players who aren’t a bit overstocked in copper like I am, so I figured I could throw out some cheap salvage for people who needed them, while still making a handy profit, a lot more than I would get in shops. Instead, I got pushed to sell my items at prices that in no way reflect that idea, or even how I got it. I feel like I’m being pushed into cheating people out of their money by means of ‘market value.’ THATS where my problem is, for those people who arent able to get many of those items and -only- get them from the market, yes, the market value is by essence, the only way they can think about a profit, but thats not me. I’m out getting these items, it takes no effort at all to get these items, there more or less -trash- to me.

This is where you’re misunderstanding the whole GW2 free market. If a player is willing to pay “x” amount for an item, how are you cheating them? If you’re against making money by selling to someone willing to pay, then you can always just unload your goods at a Merchant, and take the base value.

On a side note, I’ve never met anyone who was this anti-capitalist, where they’d rather lose money, than participate in an economy.

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Posted by: Nike.2631

Nike.2631

And then ‘To a Good Home’ finds another potential user .

“You keep saying ‘its unfair.’
I wonder what your basis for comparison is…”
- Jareth, King of Goblins.

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Posted by: mtpelion.4562

mtpelion.4562

These are items I’m more or less just throwing away as junk half the time, I wanted to put them in the market because there are likely players who aren’t a bit overstocked in copper like I am, so I figured I could throw out some cheap salvage for people who needed them, while still making a handy profit, a lot more than I would get in shops. Instead, I got pushed to sell my items at prices that in no way reflect that idea, or even how I got it. I feel like I’m being pushed into cheating people out of their money by means of ‘market value.’ THATS where my problem is, for those people who arent able to get many of those items and -only- get them from the market, yes, the market value is by essence, the only way they can think about a profit, but thats not me. I’m out getting these items, it takes no effort at all to get these items, there more or less -trash- to me.
See what I’m getting at? why should I be forced to sell at these prices when, I’m so far removed from the -reasons- for those prices, that I’m jsut robbing people blind. I feel like I’m cheating the game, myself, and others…because the market value says so. -thats- my problem. If I’m underselling because I want to..why not? Are we that afraid people purposely collapsing a market that we end up not letting people make what they consider to be fair trades? I don’t transmute my items, I dont need to, see where I’m getting at?

Let me summarize what you said:

Person A: Hi, I want to pay 95c for Jute Scraps, will you sell them to me?
Person B: No, I will only sell you Jute Scraps for 10c.
Person A: Umm… I just offered you more than that.
Person B: I find your offer of more money to be insulting as it makes me feel like I’m cheating people who are not a party to this transaction and are in no way being affected at all.
Person A: Umm.. Ok… I’m still offering you 95c because that’s what Jute Scraps are worth to me.
Person B: I shall take this indignity to the forums!
Person A: Umm… what just happened here?
Person B posts his complaint on the forum
Persons C-Z (the forums): Umm… why would you cheat yourself?
Person B: You guys are all mean for asking me that.
John Smith: Here’s why you are wrong.
Person B: Thank you, but I’m still mad at everyone for offering me too much money and asking me why I’m mad about being offered more money.

I think that’s pretty succinct.

I am willing to pay you 6c per Jute Scrap though, if it will alleviate your angst over being offered too much.

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Posted by: VincentDW.9376

VincentDW.9376

I see a lot of attacks on the OP that boil down to, “I think this is a silly thing to do,” and that’s a fine perspective to have. But is that a reason to prevent willing parties from transacting business? I can’t imagine anyone who truly believes in the concept of a free market saying yes.

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Posted by: Vikkela.7261

Vikkela.7261

I am willing to pay you 6c per Jute Scrap though, if it will alleviate your angst over being offered too much.

No, no, no, don’t sell to him, sell to me, I’ll offer you 5c each!


Humour is allowed, right?

9 Guardians later…

(edited by Vikkela.7261)

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Posted by: mtpelion.4562

mtpelion.4562

I see a lot of attacks on the OP that boil down to, “I think this is a silly thing to do,” and that’s a fine perspective to have. But is that a reason to prevent willing parties from transacting business? I can’t imagine anyone who truly believes in the concept of a free market saying yes.

It’s a limitation of the Trading Post, not an intentional prevention of free trade.

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Posted by: Smooth Penguin.5294

Smooth Penguin.5294

I am willing to pay you 6c per Jute Scrap though, if it will alleviate your angst over being offered too much.

No, no, no, don’t sell to him, sell to me, I’ll offer you 5c each!

I’m willing to allow the OP to pay me to accept his Jute.

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Posted by: mtpelion.4562

mtpelion.4562

I am willing to pay you 6c per Jute Scrap though, if it will alleviate your angst over being offered too much.

I’m willing to allow the OP to pay me to accept his Jute.

Ooh… I’ve been checkmated.

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Posted by: VincentDW.9376

VincentDW.9376

I see a lot of attacks on the OP that boil down to, “I think this is a silly thing to do,” and that’s a fine perspective to have. But is that a reason to prevent willing parties from transacting business? I can’t imagine anyone who truly believes in the concept of a free market saying yes.

It’s a limitation of the Trading Post, not an intentional prevention of free trade.

Since the trading post was intentionally designed to behave in the way it does, the designer intended it to limit free trade. My question is, why? And further, is that reason a good one?

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Posted by: mtpelion.4562

mtpelion.4562

I see a lot of attacks on the OP that boil down to, “I think this is a silly thing to do,” and that’s a fine perspective to have. But is that a reason to prevent willing parties from transacting business? I can’t imagine anyone who truly believes in the concept of a free market saying yes.

It’s a limitation of the Trading Post, not an intentional prevention of free trade.

Since the trading post was intentionally designed to behave in the way it does, the designer intended it to limit free trade. My question is, why? And further, is that reason a good one?

I doubt that the concept of people trying to sell for less than the current offer even occurred to the designers. I’d put it down as an oversight, not an intentional restriction.

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Posted by: Rajani Isa.6294

Rajani Isa.6294

I see a lot of attacks on the OP that boil down to, “I think this is a silly thing to do,” and that’s a fine perspective to have. But is that a reason to prevent willing parties from transacting business? I can’t imagine anyone who truly believes in the concept of a free market saying yes.

It’s a limitation of the Trading Post, not an intentional prevention of free trade.

Since the trading post was intentionally designed to behave in the way it does, the designer intended it to limit free trade. My question is, why? And further, is that reason a good one?

Because it rewards sellers for selling low, to a point. When sellers sell low like that, and still get more, it also a) helps move items around, b) helps be a gold sink still, sinking off the 95c vs 10c value.

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Posted by: Cassocaster.4576

Cassocaster.4576

Gives a standing Applause my god, someone who bothers to make argument without insulting people.

I believe that most people WERE interested in what you had to say until you struck out at one of the best armchair economists on these boards with your “-you-” comment. In your response to JS I see what you are saying but it comes across as a martyr position: “I am standing up for the little guy who cannot afford these outrageous prices” when those people spend plenty of time yelling on their own. I applaud your integrity at saying those words if you are indeed looking to shelter those that cannot farm enough to get the weapon/armor they want but I think we both know that farming/salvaging isn’t so difficult that it keeps jute out of the hands of the huddled masses.

There are a ton of companies that set the minimum retail price of an item so undercutting doesn’t devalue their product and cause brand deterioration. Thing is, in GW2, the players decide what something is worth, not the trading post (as “the company”). When you shout out against the cost of what you perceive to be a simple item that costs too much, you are yelling at the players, not the TP.

Jute may not be worth 95C to you but to someone needing to craft through armorsmithing, etc; that jute IS worth that much because they need it to finish the job.

I had a boss that sold super expensive travel packages and his saying was “you can never spend other people’s money”, that statement is very relevant to your post.

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Posted by: VincentDW.9376

VincentDW.9376

I see a lot of attacks on the OP that boil down to, “I think this is a silly thing to do,” and that’s a fine perspective to have. But is that a reason to prevent willing parties from transacting business? I can’t imagine anyone who truly believes in the concept of a free market saying yes.

It’s a limitation of the Trading Post, not an intentional prevention of free trade.

Since the trading post was intentionally designed to behave in the way it does, the designer intended it to limit free trade. My question is, why? And further, is that reason a good one?

I doubt that the concept of people trying to sell for less than the current offer even occurred to the designers. I’d put it down as an oversight, not an intentional restriction.

That’s possible, true. Although when you compare this to the AH functions in other games (which undoubtedly the designers would have looked at simply to know how the competition was doing things), they don’t all behave this way. I would argue that awareness of totally free, any-price trading systems existing in other games, and then choosing not to have one here, counts as intentional.

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Posted by: VincentDW.9376

VincentDW.9376

b) helps be a gold sink still, sinking off the 95c vs 10c value.

If I had to guess, this is the reason I would pick too. Ensuring no transactions take place below the “market rate” maximizes the amount of cash changing hands, which also maximizes the amount of TP tax taken from it. It’s a tradeoff of some transactional freedom in exchange for some anti-inflationary effect.

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Posted by: John Smith.4610

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A couple of points to consider:
A Trading Post is not an Auction House and that is an intentional decision.
When a player posts a buy or sell order, that player is making a public statement. I am willing to pay this money or trade this item at this price. Those who offer the highest willingness to pay get matched first. I don’t see anything but market failures and weird scams coming from a system that allows arbitrary trading. Our system now works quickly and efficiently and gives (virtually) everyone what they’re asking for.
This system was not designed intentionally to enhance the quantity of gold sunk, that’s simply a byproduct of an efficient market.

(edited by John Smith.4610)

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Posted by: eleshazar.6902

eleshazar.6902

To the OP. It seems like you just want to do a nice thing and don’t really care about your personal wealth. What you can do if you want to help out the less fortunate players is to become part of a guild with a guild bank. At that point you can simply place them in there to donate them to less fortunate guildies. And to offset your profit loss if you wish, you can sell some at the high rate on the TP.

There is a guy that I know that is exceedingly wealthy (almost to an unbelievable sense). He rarely tells anyone that he is wealthy, and when he hears someone randomly talk about an item they are grinding for, he gives them a donation to help them achieve their goal. You are always welcome to do the same thing, and I assure you you will make people’s days by doing so.

All professions level 80| Champion Paragon, Phantom, Genius
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Posted by: VincentDW.9376

VincentDW.9376

A couple of points to consider:
A Trading Post is not an Auction House and that is an intentional decision.
When a player posts a buy or sell order, that player is making a public statement. I am willing to pay this money or trade this item at this price. Those who offer the highest willingness to pay get matched first. I don’t see anything but market failures and weird scams coming from a system that allows arbitrary trading. Our system now works quickly and efficiently and gives (virtually) everyone what they’re asking for.
This system was not designed intentionally to enhance the quantity of gold sunk, that’s simply a byproduct of an efficient market.

True indeed, markets in the real world without the “must sell to the highest offer” limitation do have their share of market failures and weird scams. It’s definitely a judgment call as to how much freedom to transact is worth giving up to prevent these things, but I’m glad it was something actively considered and intentionally chosen during the design of the system instead of simply a coding oversight.

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Posted by: Mystic.5934

Mystic.5934

OP, your heart is in a good place, but I think you are a bit confused about who you are trying to help.
If the highest offer for a shredded rag is 1s, then there will be people that have offered less than 1s. these people are not offering 50c because that’s how much they think shredded rags are worth or can’t afford more – these people are offering 50c because shredded rags used to be worth 50c and their offer is hella old. Most likely, among the players offering 1s are the same people who are currently offering 50c. It’s quicker to just place a new offer than increase an old offer. Plus, if the price ever goes down, they will be the first that they get sold to.
If you want to help out those who can’t help themselves, listen to other players instead. I occasionally see “[Charged Lodestone] woot! just 249 to go!”. A couple times I’ve even given them a great deal on the charged lodestone I had just got.

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Posted by: John Smith.4610

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If the highest offer for a shredded rag is 1s, then there will be people that have offered less than 1s. these people are not offering 50c because that’s how much they think shredded rags are worth or can’t afford more – these people are offering 50c because shredded rags used to be worth 50c and their offer is hella old. Most likely, among the players offering 1s are the same people who are currently offering 50c. It’s quicker to just place a new offer than increase an old offer. Plus, if the price ever goes down, they will be the first that they get sold to.

This is a very broad generalization that I don’t believe is true. Be careful not to assume that individual experience comprise a “most likely” situation.

(edited by John Smith.4610)

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Posted by: Cormac.3871

Cormac.3871

To answer the OP’s concern, there are in fact two important trade systems in GW2, although the second gets overlooked on this forum. There is the trading post and there is barter. Because the mail system doesn’t allow for simultaneous trades between people the barter economy only really exists inside guilds, but it is responsible for countless legendary swords being crafted months early. So if you want a trading system you can feel comfortable with you can try finding a nice guild, and there are quite a few out there. Just let them know that you have a lot of shredded rags and if someone wants to start tailoring you’ll sell for a price well below market value.

I do however feel your concerns in this instance are misplaced. People know that in order to get jute they need to farm creatures that drop scraps and bags in low level areas. They would just rather spend the money to have someone else do it for them.

I do however feel bad about low volume items with a captive market. The price of silver doubloons is pushed way up because it can be. A laissez faire capitalist would have no problem defending this situation, but it feels like gouging to me. So yeah, I see where you are coming from, it’s just the point at which it bugs me is more limited. Also I’m mad cause my level 24 toon has done about 10 jumping puzzles recently and only had one drop for him

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Posted by: VideoGamermike.5813

VideoGamermike.5813

You know, this is kind of hilarious to what this has turned into. I made this as nothing more than checking a conclusion in the hopes I was wrong. I felt like I was cheating people with unfair prices. But with that said, my last post here to get stuff out.
I do want to apologize for my first comments, I took it too personally and should have made it clear that this was purely based on MY station in an economy, I would have likely been more agreeable if I fit what the ‘normal’ market trader does. But the post was me taking his comments on a personal level, and not making my point more clear, a problem I have a lot lately. However, I -was- personally attacked, and have been sense then, when you called an idiot and your ideas shunted, I don’t think you sit back and say nothing.
Oh and, to someone question earlier, if someone comes to me willing to pay a gouging price because hes accepted ‘there no other way, i just have to grin and bear it’ and I make him pay a purposely gouged price, then yes, can be cheating him(even there’s nothing illicit going on)
Also, cormac, the silver dabloon example is….sadly a price I won’t complain about. The issue here is the thing is basically impossible to get, its a lack of supply and gigantic demand. In fact, the mod reading this should probably inform the design team to add it as a drop to a few bags so people can get these items by themselves.
Finally, let me make something clear, THIS IS NOT SOME BASIS IN ALTRUISM. I do feel like some items I can’t sell, because the prices are too bloated. Thats not being some grand hero, thats me being uncomfortable and feeling like I’m cheating. It’s more akin to refusing to use a memory hacker for free gold, just because everyone else is. I feel bad cheating the game and people, if that means I can’t trade that item…oh well. I don’t get how people think, ‘i dont want to cheat’ somehow turns to being a grand ‘hero of the people’

And smith, this is where you and me disagree. You’re system does have a very serious flaw, it can’t adapt if the market changes and people like me arent comfortable going by old standards.
I do not have the same reasoning, situation, availability, location, or temporment, to many of the reasons for pricing that people set here. As such, my laws of pricing will be drastically different, some items(like armor/weapons) a bit more expensive, while the junk trophies worth little to nothing, with scale to consider the difficulty of level. The problem is, if the prices are set in stone by a bunch of precious transaction, the market is unable to change, because the people like me who aren’t comfortable with selling on these levels, have no means of influencing it.
Look, I get what you’re saying, and yes, there can some market problems(especially market dumping and scams) when given absolute freedom. But that’s going to happen, and being so afraid of market flops and economic changes that you disallow people to sell as they need to, just make a stagnant boring market that hardly ever changes. You’re defense has started to show the goal here to be way too stagnant and overly controlled, simply as a mean to stop market crashing. If you wanna kill trading to stop scammers, you’re already pushing it, but…this? How can I effect the market if it feels like I’m memory hacking anytime I use it.

All I was hoping for was the ability to set my own price, for my reasons. Is that really so bad?

(edited by VideoGamermike.5813)

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Posted by: John Smith.4610

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John Smith.4610

I think you may misunderstand how the system works again. I recommend you go to gw2Spidy and look at some of the charts over time. Also take a little bit of time to look at how the trading post really works and then reformulate your problem. I’m happy to answer any questions you might have.

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Posted by: Ulion.5476

Ulion.5476

Videogamermike you are one of the people flippers make a profit from. Putting up a item cheaper than it is worth enable them to flip it for a nice profit. Supply and demand is the simple way of understanding the TP. You have various ways to get a item and the people that have uses for it.

Crafting items are the most sold items on the TP not weapons/armor. It is easy enough for anyone to level a craft in this game. Finding the mats is the hardest aspect of crafting. The good looking skins have rarer mats than the standard skins.

Ele – Tarnished Coast
“Quoth the raven nevermore”
Platinum Scout: 300% MF

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Posted by: KarateKid.5648

KarateKid.5648

Well…thats basically a “never use this place again.”
Seriously this is insane, the only salvage you can get from this thing is a copper ore, and the item itself is the single most common salvage item I have gotten in this game(I’ve been to four started areas now,) how an item can be worth three times the cost of what you get from salvaging it is beyond me.

But yeah, I am not going to use a system where I am forced to sell for some insane overinflated BS price just because, thats both a terrible economy, and something I don’t plan on participating in.

Hey Videogamermike, not sure if you know me, but I’m John Smith and I’m the Economist here at Guild Wars 2. I think I may be able to explain some of your confusion.

It sounds like what you’re thinking about is the Labor Theory of Value, which is essentially an item’s value is defined by how long it takes to make or get. This is not an invalid theory, but it usually only holds up when the item in question doesn’t have substitutes or alternatives. In GW2, many of the items can be converted into another item and many of the items have multiple conversion into themselves. This means that there a many alternative ways to obtain a single item. This means that the value of all these items will be determined by the market, not by the value of labor since there isn’t a single value of labor involved.

you horrible, mean, capitalist swine person! ;D

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Posted by: Buttercup.5871

Buttercup.5871

@video, did you check John’s statement on things being acquired in several ways, etc. and actually think about what he meant by it? Whenever you see that, think “the forge.”

Shredded rags salvage into about 2 jute scraps. Jute can be upgraded into wool, one bolt of which is currently around 7 silver. Every price on the TP has a reason. People don’t push for high prices if there is no demand to match it (bolts of damask requiring bolts of wool). Every price is part of a circular system that is driven by demand. Which brings me to your statement about silver doubloons believing the price of that item being “OK”. I’m sorry but I can’t align that thought with your other statements. At all.

In your system, people would sell rags for low prices not knowing that they have a lot more value than they know. It allows for people to be used, ripped off, simply because they don’t know about the forge upgrade system. No, no I really don’t like that prospect at all.

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Posted by: DaG.5103

DaG.5103

I do want to apologize for my first comments, I took it too personally and should have made it clear that this was purely based on MY station in an economy, I would have likely been more agreeable if I fit what the ‘normal’ market trader does. But the post was me taking his comments on a personal level, and not making my point more clear, a problem I have a lot lately. However, I -was- personally attacked, and have been sense then, when you called an idiot and your ideas shunted, I don’t think you sit back and say nothing.

While I disagree with your opinions (more on that below), you should not have been insulted. I’m sorry that you weren’t treated with the respect that every poster here deserves!

Oh and, to someone question earlier, if someone comes to me willing to pay a gouging price because hes accepted ‘there no other way, i just have to grin and bear it’ and I make him pay a purposely gouged price, then yes, can be cheating him(even there’s nothing illicit going on)

So here’s the big flaw in your argument. Why have you determined that the price of rags/jute is “a gouging price”? John did a good job of explaining to you that the prices of goods are not based solely on their own scarcity. Unfortunately, and this is where some posters have been rather rude, but there isn’t much other way to explain this except to inform you – hopefully more politely – that you are incorrect.

The price of jute is based on its uses. Jute is used in leveling every armor crafting profession and can be used to transmute wool, which is needed both for leveling all 3 professions and for the very expensive Grandmaster crafting of ascended armor. Ascended armor takes a lot of materials, because you make many pieces of it, so you will need a lot of wool to complete this.

In addition, compared with level 80 resources, there is less jute being added to the market. Level 80s get a mix of early level drops and on-level drops, so you don’t get as much armor that can become jute when you are farming as a level 80. This scarcity issue is what affects the prices of wool, cotton, and linen more severely, because if you were to look at the levels of all characters in the game, there are far fewer characters level 20-70 than level 1-10s and level 80s, but there is still a significant gap between level 1-10s and level 80s – most active players are or have a level 80. They spend less time in low level zones, and when they do, get less jute, so you are going to see fewer T1 than T5 (though remember, silk is still more expensive because of its very high requirement in ascended crafting – this is actually a great counterexample to your theory of how prices should be!)

Finally, you mentioned that you could farm 20 rags in 20 minutes. Unfortunately, that is just not a very fast way to make money. Basically, if I want jute, I could get more money faster than you can farm rags, meaning even if I pay the full price for the rags that you wanted to sell for less, I will get more jute than you would just running around and farming them. This is precisely why the price of jute is what it is, and not less. Any items value is based solely on what people will pay for it, and what people will pay for it comes from a mix of scarcity, effort, and need.