Guild Wars 2

Syeria.4812:

The burden of proof continues to fall upon those who claim that the current economy is harming the game. No matter how many fancy, selfish, silly ways people want to try phrase things “I’m unhappy” is still not an argument. The people who have defended the economy have defended it against the claims that have been made against it. As no one has provided an actual argument (besides the “I want a legendary but it’s hard” one that is constantly put down) as to the economy detracting from the game, no one has felt obligated to defend it.

I’ll reiterate again:

If you or anyone else believes that the economy of the game is causing things to be “unfun” feel free to make that argument. However, you must be prepared to present evidence or logic to support that claim. The burden of proof is upon you.

There is no burden of proof if I’m relaying a personal experience. If I come on this forum saying “the economy setup in GW2 makes me not want to play the game” I’m stating a fact relating to myself, I don’t need to prove it. You’d need to prove that I’m lying in this case, i.e. I’m claiming to not have fun due to the economy while in fact I have fun playing the TP (or whatever). Unless you have a mind reader device, good luck doing that.
Also, “I’m unhappy” might not be an argument but is a perfecty valid feedback.

About the economy “objectively” harming the game overall, that’s not provable because you’d need access to data which only Arenanet has (mainly if the number of players is increasing or decreasing, which reasons players cite causing them to leave the game etc.). By the same token though, you cannot prove that the economy is helping the game either.

Here’s a simple thought. What if it turns out that the best economic model for MMO success is an highly inflationary one?

@MagnusLL
I guess we understand that you are not happy about it but could you offer a solution on the other hand that would:
1) Satisfy most people
2) Be unexploitable
and 3) Without harming or destroying the hard work (yes i consider playing the market as work too) others have putten into it.

The problem is you can’t make it right for everyone. You don’t have to go for high-end items but if you do they are considered to take loads of effort.

Considering the rise of prizes: that’s just how it works. I doubt that Arenanet will just allow an overall inflationary economy. My guess is that prizes will rise until players themselfs stop buying something because it is too expensiv. Then sellers will have to adapt and it reaches an overall average of the value an item is supposed to have. That value is clearly not met at the precursors because people will still buy them even if tbey are 700-800g.

It’s not Arenanet being unfair, mean or illogical. It’s us players that drive the market. The buyers make the prizes. If i could sell my storm to 2 people one’s willing to pay 100g the other up to 300g guess how i’d choose

Syeria.4812:

The burden of proof continues to fall upon those who claim that the current economy is harming the game. No matter how many fancy, selfish, silly ways people want to try phrase things “I’m unhappy” is still not an argument. The people who have defended the economy have defended it against the claims that have been made against it. As no one has provided an actual argument (besides the “I want a legendary but it’s hard” one that is constantly put down) as to the economy detracting from the game, no one has felt obligated to defend it.

I’ll reiterate again:

If you or anyone else believes that the economy of the game is causing things to be “unfun” feel free to make that argument. However, you must be prepared to present evidence or logic to support that claim. The burden of proof is upon you.

“Harming The Game” is an arbitrary criteria, but you don’t see many people on wow, for example, complaining about the economy.

You most certainly don’t have massive, recurring threads in the GENERAL forums on the inaccessibility of end-game progression being gated behind the TP, and you don’t have massive threads on how unrewarding the game feels for the half of the populace with bugged DR.

The average of at least two threads on the front page of general bemoaning these two points, despite continual mod action to move or delete them, and the massive sticky which is actually a smaller, younger brother of a much larger locked one, seem to demonstrate an “objective” measure of this.

People were so annoyed they were motivated to log OUT of the game and come here to complain. I’d call that a ruined game experience.

Lucas of the Desert.2165:

@MagnusLL
I guess we understand that you are not happy about it but could you offer a solution on the other hand that would:
1) Satisfy most people
2) Be unexploitable
and 3) Without harming or destroying the hard work (yes i consider playing the market as work too) others have putten into it.

The problem is you can’t make it right for everyone. You don’t have to go for high-end items but if you do they are considered to take loads of effort.

Considering the rise of prizes: that’s just how it works. I doubt that Arenanet will just allow an overall inflationary economy. My guess is that prizes will rise until players themselfs stop buying something because it is too expensiv. Then sellers will have to adapt and it reaches an overall average of the value an item is supposed to have. That value is clearly not met at the precursors because people will still buy them even if tbey are 700-800g.

It’s not Arenanet being unfair, mean or illogical. It’s us players that drive the market. The buyers make the prizes. If i could sell my storm to 2 people one’s willing to pay 100g the other up to 300g guess how i’d choose

Actually I’ve not many problems with the economy since I know how to play the TP to get money (and I do it regularly, although I’m certainly nowhere near being a power trader) and I don’t really care about legendaries. If I really started to go after one, my estimate would be 2 months to get any one I pick, including the 2 greatswords.

But if you’re asking which economy model I’d like to see implemented in an MMO: a claim window which gives you for free any item in the game, on all characters in your account, whenever you want.

Common wisdom says this would destroy any MMO game since these games “are all about progression”. But I’ve never been one to follow common wisdom..

MagnusLL.8473:

But if you’re asking which economy model I’d like to see implemented in an MMO: a claim window which gives you for free any item in the game, on all characters in your account, whenever you want.

Common wisdom says this would destroy any MMO game since these games “are all about progression”. But I’ve never been one to follow common wisdom..

I’ve played games like that. Maplestory and Ragnarok Online private servers with “All-in-One” Shops that literally had everything for either the equivalent of 1c or 0c. It was fun to play around in, but it was more of a game than an MMO or RPG. It was simply, kitten I have everything, let me abuse silly combos that other people don’t know about since they’re not cookie cutter and they involve non-standard items.

(Mostly in RO, combining some overpowered trinkets used in foreign events that were given out YEARS before with weapons and getting a near 100% chance of proccing a skill with an auto attack [theoretical 100%, not actual], then maxing attack speed and intelligence to get massive amounts of damage out without ever lifting a finger.)

Also, that’s not an economy by definition.

Accumulating money is not an in game progression. Nuff said.

It can buy stuff that makes progression easier, yes, but it should buy progression itself.

Yes I’m considering acquiring a Legendary as game progression because it is actually the top end of progression.

Lucas of the Desert.2165:

The point of legendarys are that they should be hard to get. Not normally hard but excessively hard! They are designed to take years. He only problem is that there are intelligent people who manage to either gind or to TP their way up. This is not a faulty system it’s people who figuered what aspects yield the most income.

So it’s perfectly acceptable to circumvent the point of a legendary being hard to acquire via the tp but not other means?

And believe it or not this way nobody at all is locked out of the content. Random chances are the most fair ways for everyone. Just imagine something being impossibly hard. Like a scavenher hunt where you have to train with your guild day after day, everyone coordinating on teamspeak just to get a precursor after 3h+ of one boss. THAT would lock casuals out of the content.

There are rich players in every game. They either fulfill their goal through being smart (playing the tp or any other economy), being dedicated and persistent (grinding, farming) or pay to win (being rich in RL, which is probably the worst design flaw).

The only way to “make it equal” is to damage the rich people, which would be unfair because it required lots of work to get their earnings or to remove the possibility to trade completely and make everything buyable with gold that every monster drops in a certain amount…. which is boring

But damaging the masses playing content via DR and or poor general rates is perfectly fine?

Mesket.5728:

Accumulating money is not an in game progression. Nuff said.

It can buy stuff that makes progression easier, yes, but it should buy progression itself.

Yes I’m considering acquiring a Legendary as game progression because it is actually the top end of progression.

I find the two options to be no different. Some people like to see a big number next to their gold count. Some people like to see cool effects on their gear. In both cases it is either a case of internal pride or external status symbol.

Why so many defenders of the current system are making a real life comparison is absolutely beyond me.
This is a game!!!

So going to the TP is not mandatory eh?
Im not talking about legendaries, because quite frankly, i dont care for them one bit, im talking about hundreds of other items (runes/sigils), that can only be aquired through the TP.
How many runes of divinity have you found by playing the game?
I got exactly one. So what happens if i want a whole set of those? Have to go to the TP.
Not saying that this sepcific rune is the most desirable, just taking this as an example really.
This has also nothing to do with cosmetics, but with my playstyle, if i so desire to choose a rune-set that hardly ever drops.
Now someone else is dictating how much i have to pay for a single rune, this price may be stable, but is probalby going up, because its quite rare.

Anet made two major mistakes in my opinion.
1.) Making legendaries tradeable
2.) Making ectos tradeable and only really one way to produce/get them (by salvaging)
and also being the single most important ingredient in any high end equipment

On one hand they are swinging the ban-hammer hard at bots, introduce DR and other mechanics, to stop too much valuables flooding the market, but on the other hand they more or less encourage you to search for loopholes and almost drive people to go to goldsellers.

If the most desirable items in the game were non-tradeable, like we have already with ascended stuff, a lot of those problems would go away.

The current system already made an impact.
Just look for any specific gear under level 60 or so.
Right, there are no choices left, because people stopped producing those goods because of the lack of any profit.
Youll see how this effect spreads even more, once the majority of players has leveled their chars and noboby is producing anything anymore.

To the people who are saying that flippers actually contribute a lot to the system.
If everyone would use this method of “making money”, surely there would be no goods or no money left (tp fee) after a while.

JaironKalach.4938:

Mesket.5728:

Accumulating money is not an in game progression. Nuff said.

It can buy stuff that makes progression easier, yes, but it should buy progression itself.

Yes I’m considering acquiring a Legendary as game progression because it is actually the top end of progression.

I find the two options to be no different. Some people like to see a big number next to their gold count. Some people like to see cool effects on their gear. In both cases it is either a case of internal pride or external status symbol.

But then we go back to page 2 or 3 of this thread (read my posts there).

This isn’t a money making game, its a fantasy monster slaying game. Give me a merchant class and you will have a point right there.

If this was Eve Online then money making would be part of game progression. I agree.

When playing the TP makes more progress than getting out of the city and playing the game, then something is wrong.

I don’t blame John’s TP; its a design flaw as a whole and many variables get involved.

Ursan.7846:

Just wanted to point out that a more stable economy =/= economy with cheaper legendaries.

Yet an economy where some of those items are = 400%+ their component values is balanced? Surely time and effort are worth evaluating, but then again nothing else in the TP is allowed to have such a large profit margin. My point in everything I said is that to cut this disturbingly large disparity means the TP needs to place a “cap” on what people can ask for items. I can’t seem to think of any other craft-able items that have anywhere close to a 400% profit margin, which seems to have been intended by design. You can save a bit of money crafting the items yourself, or you can spend the extra little to buy it via TP. It has been stated multiple times that the TP was not intended to be a profitable exploit, as there are measures in place to remove money from the game. So yes, cheaper legendaries is not indicative of a balanced economy, but implementing balances to ensure the current system works as intended would imply this; that being my original point, kill the greed factor.

Mesket.5728:

This isn’t a money making game, its a fantasy monster slaying game. Give me a merchant class and you will have a point right there.

If this was Eve Online then money making would be part of game progression. I agree.

When playing the TP makes more progress than getting out of the city and playing the game, then something is wrong.

I don’t blame John’s TP; its a design flaw as a whole and many variables get involved.

I’ve read your posts. I fundamentally disagree with your narrow view of the purpose of this game. In fact, I am sure that this game was never intended to be a “fantasy monster slaying game” only. It was also intended to be a:

• Player versus player competition game (those posts about eSports aren’t for nothing.)
• Social interaction game (a lot of design is around fostering this, including chat and interaction)
• Economy/trading game (they didn’t create the TP by accident, and they most certainly don’t have an in-house economist by accident.)

Even though this game sometimes seems like it, MMORPGs are not “Diablo III with more players on a map.” They are designed from the ground up to include group economies, larger social schemes, more open content. Things like the TP are not an afterthought. They are fundamentally designed into the system to provide people an opportunity to escape into a world where they are successful merchant, even though they might not get to experience that in real life.

JaironKalach.4938:

Mesket.5728:

This isn’t a money making game, its a fantasy monster slaying game. Give me a merchant class and you will have a point right there.

If this was Eve Online then money making would be part of game progression. I agree.

When playing the TP makes more progress than getting out of the city and playing the game, then something is wrong.

I don’t blame John’s TP; its a design flaw as a whole and many variables get involved.

I’ve read your posts. I fundamentally disagree with your narrow view of the purpose of this game. In fact, I am sure that this game was never intended to be a “fantasy monster slaying game” only. It was also intended to be a:

• Player versus player competition game (those posts about eSports aren’t for nothing.)
• Social interaction game (a lot of design is around fostering this, including chat and interaction)
• Economy/trading game (they didn’t create the TP by accident, and they most certainly don’t have an in-house economist by accident.)

Even though this game sometimes seems like it, MMORPGs are not “Diablo III with more players on a map.” They are designed from the ground up to include group economies, larger social schemes, more open content. Things like the TP are not an afterthought. They are fundamentally designed into the system to provide people an opportunity to escape into a world where they are successful merchant, even though they might not get to experience that in real life.

I’ve been playing MMORPGs since 1997. Diablo is not even an MMORPG. All games share a vision, big kitten bosses, creepy dungeons, explorable worlds… many of those games have/had trading systems implemented. This doesn’t mean that the sole purpose of stationary money producing mechanic was intended and thought to be a way of playing the game. It is an accident reproduced by players trying to find the fastest easiest way to get things. In this case, using money.

GW2 has a very complex TP not to be abused to produce money but to simplify cross server transactions and to avoid people exploiting it (tax and fees).

I agree that accumulating money is a way of increasing power usually considered as a valid display of progression in many games BUT it is due slaying and trading (your spoils) that you make money. When you can be the richest guy without leaving a single secure room in a city then something is wrong and I’m not talking about 1 genius trader. Everyone can do that by watching gw2spidy and fliping items. Point is, people who doesn’t want to play the TP (and I hardly believe anyone bought this game just to play trading) are left behind as you barely get any drop from doing things and you have no spoils to sell.

Mesket.5728:

I agree that accumulating money is a way of increasing power usually considered as a valid display of progression in many games BUT it is due slaying and trading (your spoils) that you make money. When you can be the richest guy without leaving a single secure room in a city then something is wrong and I’m not talking about 1 genius trader. Everyone can do that by watching gw2spidy and fliping items. Point is, people who doesn’t want to play the TP (and I hardly believe anyone bought this game just to play trading) are left behind as you barely get any drop from doing things and you have no spoils to sell.

Still fundamentally disagree with this perception. In fact, I would argue that GW2 is even more than many MMOs designed with economy as progression, given it was baked into the game that you could progress fully in the game without ever slaying a single creature.

I’m also confused because sometimes you say you don’t care what other people do, yet you can’t seem to help comparing yourself against what other people do. Not sure why you’re so hung up that someone who played the TP has more money than you.

JaironKalach.4938:

Mesket.5728:

I agree that accumulating money is a way of increasing power usually considered as a valid display of progression in many games BUT it is due slaying and trading (your spoils) that you make money. When you can be the richest guy without leaving a single secure room in a city then something is wrong and I’m not talking about 1 genius trader. Everyone can do that by watching gw2spidy and fliping items. Point is, people who doesn’t want to play the TP (and I hardly believe anyone bought this game just to play trading) are left behind as you barely get any drop from doing things and you have no spoils to sell.

Still fundamentally disagree with this perception. In fact, I would argue that GW2 is even more than many MMOs designed with economy as progression, given it was baked into the game that you could progress fully in the game without ever slaying a single creature.

I’m also confused because sometimes you say you don’t care what other people do, yet you can’t seem to help comparing yourself against what other people do. Not sure why you’re so hung up that someone who played the TP has more money than you.

Simply because loot % is a joke and you can’t craft a legendary without other peoples loot. If I knew I could do it by myself I couldn’t care less but my progression (yes I’m again calling this “cosmetic” item as progression as there is no other thing to do) is heavily impacted by what the rest do.

And if you strongly disagree with me, then I’m sorry. I must have been fooled by the game:
Not seeing trading as an important part of the game here…
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/

And I can’t find the link to “Being Legendary: An Introduction to blah blah” pile of lies regarding what crafting a legendary is.

Mesket.5728:

And if you strongly disagree with me, then I’m sorry. I must have been fooled by the game:
Not seeing trading as an important part of the game here…
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/

You really must have been fooled, because I’m not seeing legendaries and an important part of the game according to that link, either.

JaironKalach.4938:

Mesket.5728:

And if you strongly disagree with me, then I’m sorry. I must have been fooled by the game:
Not seeing trading as an important part of the game here…
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/

You really must have been fooled, because I’m not seeing legendaries and an important part of the game according to that link, either.

well you deleted where Im telling you I can’t find that link now.

Edit: found it:
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/my-legend-grows-forging-your-first-legendary-weapon/

Its a HUGE LOL.

They should change all that to: Jump in WvW, Farm Karma and play the TP.

Mesket.5728:

JaironKalach.4938:

Mesket.5728:

And if you strongly disagree with me, then I’m sorry. I must have been fooled by the game:
Not seeing trading as an important part of the game here…
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/

You really must have been fooled, because I’m not seeing legendaries and an important part of the game according to that link, either.

well you deleted where Im telling you I can’t find that link now.

Edit: found it:
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/my-legend-grows-forging-your-first-legendary-weapon/

Its a HUGE LOL.

They should change all that to: Jump in WvW, Farm Karma and play the TP.

That link is not part of the other link, so no, I didn’t delete anything relevant. The presence of that article only indicates importance at the same level as any other news articles. So, say… an explanation of the new sPvP map. It’s still all about your perceptions and your unhappiness that you can’t get a legendary easier, and it sounds like a bit of jealousy, as well…

JaironKalach.4938:

Mesket.5728:

JaironKalach.4938:

Mesket.5728:

And if you strongly disagree with me, then I’m sorry. I must have been fooled by the game:
Not seeing trading as an important part of the game here…
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/

You really must have been fooled, because I’m not seeing legendaries and an important part of the game according to that link, either.

well you deleted where Im telling you I can’t find that link now.

Edit: found it:
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/my-legend-grows-forging-your-first-legendary-weapon/

Its a HUGE LOL.

They should change all that to: Jump in WvW, Farm Karma and play the TP.

That link is not part of the other link, so no, I didn’t delete anything relevant. The presence of that article only indicates importance at the same level as any other news articles. So, say… an explanation of the new sPvP map. It’s still all about your perceptions and your unhappiness that you can’t get a legendary easier, and it sounds like a bit of jealousy, as well…

“They’re designed to stand out and show everyone that you are a true master of Guild Wars”

My cat…

True master of the TP it should say.

Going back to topic;

I still think the economy is not bad and I like harsh economy. What I don’t like and think it was a flaw in design is this kind of things that should rewards players, end up rewarding traders. Change legendary for monocles and batons like I said before and introduce new legendaries only attainable with ingame challenges (outside cities).

Mesket.5728:

JaironKalach.4938:

Mesket.5728:

JaironKalach.4938:

Mesket.5728:

And if you strongly disagree with me, then I’m sorry. I must have been fooled by the game:
Not seeing trading as an important part of the game here…
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/

You really must have been fooled, because I’m not seeing legendaries and an important part of the game according to that link, either.

well you deleted where Im telling you I can’t find that link now.

Edit: found it:
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/my-legend-grows-forging-your-first-legendary-weapon/

Its a HUGE LOL.

They should change all that to: Jump in WvW, Farm Karma and play the TP.

That link is not part of the other link, so no, I didn’t delete anything relevant. The presence of that article only indicates importance at the same level as any other news articles. So, say… an explanation of the new sPvP map. It’s still all about your perceptions and your unhappiness that you can’t get a legendary easier, and it sounds like a bit of jealousy, as well…

“They’re designed to stand out and show everyone that you are a true master of Guild Wars”

My cat…

True master of the TP it should say.

Going back to topic;

I still think the economy is not bad and I like harsh economy. What I don’t like and think it was a flaw in design is this kind of things that should rewards players, end up rewarding traders. Change legendary for monocles and batons like I said before and introduce new legendaries only attainable with ingame challenges (outside cities).

this i agree with, i think the game needs to have things for gold getters to show their achievements, and it would be cool, but that should just be a small subset of the endgame rewards. make some expensive legendaries that drop gold, give your charachters golden hands, or randomly cause the enemies to turn to gold statues on death. very legendary, and also very related to money. The primary means to obtaining other legendaries should not be amassing large quantities of wealth, it can be a secondary means, but definately shouldnt be the only reliable means of obtaining it.

The funny thing about this whole argument is that in order to be able to buy these things off the TP, there is someone earning legendaries the good old fashioned way. In fact, given the fact that I am always seeing the for sale on the TP (unsatisfied sell orders), I would speculate that there are more people getting them through earning than through buying.

JaironKalach.4938:

Mesket.5728:

JaironKalach.4938:

Mesket.5728:

And if you strongly disagree with me, then I’m sorry. I must have been fooled by the game:
Not seeing trading as an important part of the game here…
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/

You really must have been fooled, because I’m not seeing legendaries and an important part of the game according to that link, either.

well you deleted where Im telling you I can’t find that link now.

Edit: found it:
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/my-legend-grows-forging-your-first-legendary-weapon/

Its a HUGE LOL.

They should change all that to: Jump in WvW, Farm Karma and play the TP.

That link is not part of the other link, so no, I didn’t delete anything relevant. The presence of that article only indicates importance at the same level as any other news articles. So, say… an explanation of the new sPvP map. It’s still all about your perceptions and your unhappiness that you can’t get a legendary easier, and it sounds like a bit of jealousy, as well…

its not about the ease of obtaining legendaries, their diffculty to obtain is probably right, problem is its difficulty is in earning money at a high rate, or being highly lucky. No one can control luck so lets dismiss that. The legendary process is dominated by earning large quanities of money. Essentially the endgame revolves around gold. You play the game exploring, killing monsters, helping random people and seeing a glimpse in to their story for 79 levels, then at the end the game turns into a financial game, where the entire goal is to amass as much wealth as possible while hoping other people can amass less. (because you can only be rich if other people are poor)

The problem is, GW2 endgame should not be only ascessible through gold. and thus, reward gold earning mastery more than any other skill/knowledge/etc

JaironKalach.4938:

The funny thing about this whole argument is that in order to be able to buy these things off the TP, there is someone earning legendaries the good old fashioned way. In fact, given the fact that I am always seeing the for sale on the TP (unsatisfied sell orders), I would speculate that there are more people getting them through earning than through buying.

lets review the ways in which precursors are generated

Random drop for killing monsters/chests anywhere in the world by extremely low chance (so low that may 1 or 2 drop per 24 hours per weapon across 1 million+ players

mystic forge

the random drop, is unhuntable, and unpredicatable, it will happen however anyone betting on recieving their precursor through those means, well large chance of dissapointment, look at the odds, and then also realize that you have no way of influencing what 1 in a million precursor you will get.

This means its highly likely any precursor that isnt created will go to market, because a precursor of the wrong type is generally worthless to that player.

The second way is also chance, but it is controllable, you can pick which legendary, and create the circumstances to retry again and again. HOWEVER the main limiter on this attempt is gold, do you have enough gold to create a more realistic chance of getting the precursor.

So essentially its still a money game. precursors are currently designed to be obtainable primarily through wealth, either by buying the lotto winners throw aways, or by using gold to overcome the odds in the mystic forge. Or you get extremely lucky.

phys.7689:

So essentially its still a money game. precursors are currently designed to be obtainable primarily through wealth, either by buying the lotto winners throw aways, or by using gold to overcome the odds in the mystic forge. Or you get extremely lucky.

So, in the end are we just arguing about a problem that ANet is already working on a design to solve? That is, the precursor scavenger hunt?

JaironKalach.4938:

So, in the end are we just arguing about a problem that ANet is already working on a design to solve? That is, the precursor scavenger hunt?

It certainly seems the discussion of legendaries has taken over this thread.

Lane.3410:

JaironKalach.4938:

So, in the end are we just arguing about a problem that ANet is already working on a design to solve? That is, the precursor scavenger hunt?

It certainly seems the discussion of legendaries has taken over this thread.

well… one has to be blind to not realize that the whole economy discontent relies on the impossibility of acquiring a legendary through other ways. This is why I insist that is not the economy that is bad but the way you get what we can consider the ultimate reward for playing this game.

If legendaries wouldn’t exist, you wouldn’t see this much of posts as T6 mats, ectos, precursors (lets call them rare exotics) and other resources hardly have any other value.

Why are we assuming that the only “rich” people are people who play the TP?

First of all, you don’t know that. You can argue your face blue, but in the end, you don’t have any data/evidence to back up this claim.

Second of all, the only person with data on the buyers of precursors have said this:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/Gold-seller-boasting-about-precursors/first#post1417993

Take it or leave it. But please note that whenever you make claims like “Rich people are rich because they play the TP,” you’re making a assumption, and that there’s a dev who disabuses this notion (not to mention the ton of anecdotal evidence that I’m sure posters in here can provide.)

Ursan.7846:

Why are we assuming that the only “rich” people are people who play the TP?

First of all, you don’t know that. You can argue your face blue, but in the end, you don’t have any data/evidence to back up this claim.

Second of all, the only person with data on the buyers of precursors have said this:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/Gold-seller-boasting-about-precursors/first#post1417993

Take it or leave it. But please note that whenever you make claims like “Rich people are rich because they play the TP,” you’re making a assumption, and that there’s a dev who disabuses this notion (not to mention the ton of anecdotal evidence that I’m sure posters in here can provide.)

I don’t think many ppl are assumming that. However what I do believe is that we assume that the tp is the most effective way for ppl to become rich (ofc rl cash>gold excluded).

Mesket.5728:

well… one has to be blind to not realize that the whole economy discontent relies on the impossibility of acquiring a legendary through other ways. This is why I insist that is not the economy that is bad but the way you get what we can consider the ultimate reward for playing this game.

If legendaries wouldn’t exist, you wouldn’t see this much of posts as T6 mats, ectos, precursors (lets call them rare exotics) and other resources hardly have any other value.

I started to say the problem would still exist in other areas, such as dyes, but maybe if Gift of Color wasn’t a requirement for a legendary they wouldn’t cost so much. (Personally, a legendary has never really been on my radar. It seems to require a lot of gold and a lot of luck with RNG. I have neither.) However, I’m still not convinced the “whole” economy discontent is due solely to legendaries. I know mine’s not.

@Ohoni but what do you expect them to do? Increase the drop chance of precursors and lodestones? I can assure you that they’d rather implement equally difficult ways of getting them instead of tweaking the drop chance.

Upping the raw drop rates would be one way of doing it. I think it’s fairly clear that supply falls well short of demand for those items, among others. They need to drastically increase supply, or, in the case of lodestones at least, they would also have the option of reducing demand (by reducing the vast quantities needed for many recipes). Increasing the raw drop rate would be one method of increasing supply, but they could also offer other methods of earning those items. All that really matters is that overall supply is brought closer to demand.

The point of legendarys are that they should be hard to get. Not normally hard but excessively hard! They are designed to take years. He only problem is that there are intelligent people who manage to either gind or to TP their way up. This is not a faulty system it’s people who figuered what aspects yield the most income.

I have no problem with them being “hard” to get, I do have problems with them being expensive to get. If they made it so that they took months or even years of concerted effort then that would be something else entirely. I mean if they required that you, say, do every single event in the game several times, or max every Slayer achievement, or various other gameplay hurdles, then that would be something else entirely. What they do cost, currently, is not a great deal of effort, but rather a great deal of money, and money, in this game, is not distributed to players based on effort and skill at the game, but rather in how well you can play the stock markets.

If they readjusted the overall costs of crafting a legendary to the point where it only cost maybe 100 gold, but then required (non-optional) hundreds of additional hours of personal effort on the part of each player, then that would be an entirely different argument, but as it stands it only requires a limited amount of personal effort, and then a small fortune in gold. That is not currently the situation that “legendaries should be hard” proponents paint it out to be. Legendaries aren’t that hard, they are just very, very expensive. Cash money should not be the alternative to hard work.

And believe it or not this way nobody at all is locked out of the content. Random chances are the most fair ways for everyone. Just imagine something being impossibly hard. Like a scavenher hunt where you have to train with your guild day after day, everyone coordinating on teamspeak just to get a precursor after 3h+ of one boss. THAT would lock casuals out of the content.

Why not do both? I have no problem with RNGs, but I do have issues with RNG being the only way of achieving any given objective. Anything that you have a .00000001% of getting on a random basis, there should also be a method of earning it that has no less than a 10% chance each time you try, perhaps even a 100% chance, even if that method takes a good deal more time and effort to put into motion. I have no problem with people being able to get a precursor off a random enemy if they get very lucky, but they should also be able to earn the precursor of their choice by running various specific event chains, dungeons, jump puzzles, etc. The more methods, the more options, the better.

The only way to “make it equal” is to damage the rich people, which would be unfair because it required lots of work to get their earnings or to remove the possibility to trade completely and make everything buyable with gold that every monster drops in a certain amount…. which is boring

I do not care about them. If you are in the multi-thousand gold range at this point, then you have been doing something wrong, and I have no pity if the wages of that behavior are wiped out. You are not “too big to fail.” I think in the long term it might be a good idea to set up “high traffic” tax rates on the TP, ones that involve much higher than standard cuts of the profits when someone makes more than a certain number or value of trades over a given period of time.

If legendaries wouldn’t exist, you wouldn’t see this much of posts as T6 mats, ectos, precursors (lets call them rare exotics) and other resources hardly have any other value.

Legendaries are the primary distortion in the economy. Setting them aside, the secondary distortion is the “sub-legendaries,” the various cool weapons that are generated in the mystic forge using fairly expensive recipes involving massive stacks of rare ingredients. Some of these can cost several hundred gold of ingredients to make, even though they are not legendaries. Their existence, of course, drives up the price of those ingredients.

GaiusJuliusCasear.7253:

I will be honest. A good economy makes me want to play. WoW had a good economy depending on the server of course.

No. No, no, no. 50g a stack of iron ore is NOT a good economy. Please, don’t even reference that pile of crap, let it die and forget about it.

Essence Snow.3194

When you say “cost of the tp” are you referring to the tax or the cost of not playing the content?
PS plz for my sake in layman’s terms~cheers

Hi, sorry for delay in response.

For the most part, I’m referring to cost from the perspective of the consumer, not the seller. That being the case, let’s ignore the obvious tax implication. That being said, the key cost to the consumer is the (gold) price of the item acquired.

I think it can also be agreed that any item available on the TP can be acquired through some other means, empirically so, or it wouldn’t be there. And one of the key components inherent in acquiring any item in game can be expressed in terms of time.

At its very core, the TP represents a conversion of one resource (gold), into time. By using the TP, you trade a resource for time. Presumably the time saved can be put to other endeavors in the game that a player prioritizing more than the value of the gold traded.

Even more importantly, the TP offers a set (not fixed) rate of exchange for the item. For example, take acquiring 10 ectos. The cost outside of the TP of acquiring enough rare or better items to salvage into 10 ectos, may be as simple as acquiring 4 rare items in an hour. Or perhaps it could take days. Or you could run a dungeon enough times to acquire enough tokens to buy rares to salvage. Regardless of the method, it’s inherently unclear how long it could take. However, the key point is that for a specific amount of gold you can have those ectos as quickly as you click “buy”. That being the case, the consumer isn’t so much buying those 10 ectos, rather, they are buying the time it would have taken to otherwise acquire those items, which they could have undeniably done in another matter.

Like you mentioned, the other hidden cost of using the TP, and one that may be overlooked, is the cost of not playing the content. However, it’s not entirely a cost in so much as it’s an offset. Rather than using the time required to otherwise acquire those 10 ectos, the player now can devote that time to some other in game content. So, ultimately, it’s just a shift of time spent doing one activity over another.

In the end a player absolutely does not have to use the TP. However, by choosing to do so, they are able to shift the time that would have been required to acquire that item, to another, more preferable, endeavor.

Ursan.7846:

Why are we assuming that the only “rich” people are people who play the TP?

First of all, you don’t know that. You can argue your face blue, but in the end, you don’t have any data/evidence to back up this claim.

Second of all, the only person with data on the buyers of precursors have said this:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/Gold-seller-boasting-about-precursors/first#post1417993

Take it or leave it. But please note that whenever you make claims like “Rich people are rich because they play the TP,” you’re making a assumption, and that there’s a dev who disabuses this notion (not to mention the ton of anecdotal evidence that I’m sure posters in here can provide.)

It doesnt really matter, the point is Wealth is the prime determinate for the designed endgame activity. And yes legendaries are the endgame activity. When asked questions about endgame before release, they explained how legendaries were basically that type of objective.

By and large the best way to make money is to try to make money. This sucks the air out of the game, because what it comes down to is, whats the fastest way to make money, and currently its not to play the game as the devs intended.

best ways to make money;

repeated dungeon speed runs;
How it goes against the game design vision:
tends to require specific builds of one type (berserker warriors is the popular one)
requires the main technique for play be to avoid as much as possible, minimize risk(exploit enemies).

Zerg rushing events that spawn many mobs;
game turns to being about tagging as many monsters as possible
rewards specific classes at a much greater rate
requires large amounts of people to be effective(so you have to do the event everyone goes to)
with so many people, the challenge is extremely low.

TP and merchant based.
The main problem with this, is its a big person game, the most consistent profits require large investments, and hence the more money you make, the more you can make, which basically means, there will always be a disproportionate amount of earning potential.

the point is no matter how you look at it, the endgame is gold wars. And the best gold is not distributed in ways that promote adventure, difficulty, epicness, fun. etc. In other games the best loot generally comes from the most epic bosses, or the hard to find enemies, or in EQ i hear the most epic quests, in this game its generally randomized and distributed for the most simplified grind, or the most money earned.

This forum post is getting incredibly laughable…

I want to make everyone that posts further to be aware of two things please:

- as long as you have a trade option players will be able to get rich through it faster than anything else

- if you make things drop for you so recently that you can get a legendary with your loot alone than you destroyed any challenge of the original game… or made it a grind fest!

Please consider this when you are about to write new posts, thanks!

Mourningcry.9428:

In the end a player absolutely does not have to use the TP. However, by choosing to do so, they are able to shift the time that would have been required to acquire that item, to another, more preferable, endeavor.

ideally this would be the case, ideally money is a means of shifting your time doing something you dont mind doing to get things you dont want to, or cannot do. However the problem is, when money becomes the prime measure of all activities, the best way to do something is to make the most money possible per time frame. This is essentially the real world situation, people dont, in general work for fun, they work so that they can get or do the things they want to do.

Much of GW2 endgame is playing like the game is a job, you can run dungeons, however, if you want money, you will take the easiest path, with the most effiecient build set up, and try to complete it with as few difficult (interesting moments as possible)

You can kill monsters in the open world, but you are rewarded best for staying in the places which have the most other people, against the easiest monsters that die the fastest, where the most other people are.

or you can play the merchant/investor game, which as far as such games go, GW2 is probably pretty decent at. Not to good for manufacturing mini game though, that path is generally barely rewarding, probably because so many people are playing the merchant mini game, whose job is essntially to pimp the manufacturers as much as possible.

phys.7689:

Mourningcry.9428:

In the end a player absolutely does not have to use the TP. However, by choosing to do so, they are able to shift the time that would have been required to acquire that item, to another, more preferable, endeavor.

ideally this would be the case, ideally money is a means of shifting your time doing something you dont mind doing to get things you dont want to, or cannot do. However the problem is, when money becomes the prime measure of all activities, the best way to do something is to make the most money possible per time frame. This is essentially the real world situation, people dont, in general work for fun, they work so that they can get or do the things they want to do.

Much of GW2 endgame is playing like the game is a job, you can run dungeons, however, if you want money, you will take the easiest path, with the most effiecient build set up, and try to complete it with as few difficult (interesting moments as possible)

….

Absolutlely.

I never argued that using the TP was a good thing. Rather it’s just another option a player has to avoid/skip/shorten the time they’d otherwise have to do that they don’t enjoy as much.

At its worst, it’s a choice of the lesser of evils. At its best, it’s a quick means to an end (at a cost).

Lucas of the Desert.2165:

This forum post is getting incredibly laughable…

I want to make everyone that posts further to be aware of two things please:

- as long as you have a trade option players will be able to get rich through it faster than anything else

- if you make things drop for you so recently that you can get a legendary with your loot alone than you destroyed any challenge of the original game… or made it a grind fest!

Please consider this when you are about to write new posts, thanks!

you are right in that the people who make money fastest, will be the people who try to make money and trade.
you are wrong in saying that making legendaries being something you can get on your own/with a guild or group, destroys the challenge, or makes it a grind fest.

many games award the best rewards for best performance, or most understanding of the game, or most contribution to making the game good.
In FFXI i got black belt via hunting down rare, and difficult NMs as well as traveling the world and doing various quests, and interacting various NPCs. In PSO i got an SRANK weapon by essentially beating the whole game in minimal time, with unpredictable elements, with nothing given but predetermined stats.

Sure money should be an option to get things you want that you may not be able to obtain on your own, through doing things you like doing, but this game gives very few rewards for doing things people like doing.

Manufacturing items, in general is worthless, or too volatile to make money without essentially playing the market (playing the market is essentially the act of buy low and sell high)

Hunting items is by and large not doable, or feasible, it generally turns out that you are better off doing repetive task A to get any item than to actually hunt it.

a big part of the problem is not the tp itself, or the fact people can make money there, but rather that making money is the best way to get anything specific. Drops and item creation is to randomized in its distribution, rather than people seeking to create things, many items are created by random chance, byproducts to people seeking other activities. this means in this game, money is the most effective means to get what you want, which means it encourages the trading game, or the work for the trader game.

I find the thought that precursors will eventually become stabile naturally to be incredibly naive tbh… its a one of a kind item (By that i basicly mean that precursor is a bottle neck to get legendary, as such it might as well be one of a kind), no mather how high people will always be willing to buy it if they have the currency to do so.. a real world example would be collectibles going for several millions, or art in general,there will always be someone willing and capable of paying just about anything for that item, and the vast majority will never have a chance in hell of obtaining that item.

Personally I am determined as hell to get my precursor now, and have decided to go for 100g farm in one day, but lets be reasonable a NORMAL person can’t devote this kinda time to farming, nor would he want to for 10+ hours in the same spot.

Hell, even I who am used to harsh grinds from games like Eq1 might very well become burnt out from it.

I can afford the grind for precursor because I am basicly a no lifer, but I can honestly say the average player does not have a fair chance at it, especially if they are new players.. gold inflation hurts new players MUCH harder then it hits those of you who have been around, and have already built up a minor fortune.

John Smith.4610:

Tyria is a its own world. The Black Lion Trading Company exists in that world and plays the roll it was meant to play. The TP was intentionally designed to be part of the game and, much more than real life, you may choose to live how you like inside Tyria. It’s your world to live in.

The TP is only one facet of the economy, though, and in this case you guys control all facets of the economy. you decide how items are distributed. The problem isnt that there are rich people, or that the TP is an open trading system, its that the item distribution favors the TP in terms of obtaining any specific item.

Essentially the economy you ve created favors making money over doing anything else, in terms of getting what you want. This is not to say there is no reason to create anything, but too many things are created via rng. Making it so the actual sure method of obtaining said items is competing with randomly generated items, that are created unintentionally. This means everyone takes everything to market, and a lot of the things they got were things they never needed. In the terms of rare items, this means the only effective way to obtain them is to enter the market and compete with others who want it at playing the money game.

Perfect example. leveling a craft to 400, and then realizing even at 400, its easier to buy a carrion exotic pistol than to craft one.

The economy as is, isnt about trading the things you want to do, for the things you dont want to do. Which i think is ideally what an MMO economy should try to achieve.

John Smith.4610:

Tyria is a its own world. The Black Lion Trading Company exists in that world and plays the roll it was meant to play. The TP was intentionally designed to be part of the game and, much more than real life, you may choose to live how you like inside Tyria. It’s your world to live in.

This basically says nothing John.

It’s a shame how legendaries (and almost all that is needed for it) are inmerse in the TP.

Guess Aragorn could’ve get one there instead of going to Loriel and having Elrond reforging it… Hey Gimli, how is the price on lamba bread? ok resell now! we might get a hand to that Isildur sword!

Become a Legend in Tyria, Trade like noone else!

Mesket.5728:

John Smith.4610:

Tyria is a its own world. The Black Lion Trading Company exists in that world and plays the roll it was meant to play. The TP was intentionally designed to be part of the game and, much more than real life, you may choose to live how you like inside Tyria. It’s your world to live in.

This basically says nothing John.

It’s a shame how legendaries (and almost all that is needed for it) are inmerse in the TP.

It says enough.

To put it plainly, if you don’t like the TP, pretend it doesn’t exist, and get all your requirements for your legendary via other means – it can absolutely be done. (Just like Aragorn. Heck, maybe you can even be like Bilbo and Gandalf and find named exotics in some random loot pile off some random mob trash…)

If you like the TP, use it, and accept/come to terms with the cost it entails.

These are really not sophisticated concepts.

Mourningcry.9428:

Mesket.5728:

John Smith.4610:

Tyria is a its own world. The Black Lion Trading Company exists in that world and plays the roll it was meant to play. The TP was intentionally designed to be part of the game and, much more than real life, you may choose to live how you like inside Tyria. It’s your world to live in.

This basically says nothing John.

It’s a shame how legendaries (and almost all that is needed for it) are inmerse in the TP.

It says enough.

To put it plainly, if you don’t like the TP, pretend it doesn’t exist, and get all your requirements for your legendary via other means – it can absolutely be done. (Just like Aragorn. Heck, maybe you can even be like Bilbo and Gandalf and find named exotics in some random loot pile off some random mob trash…)

If you like the TP, use it, and accept/come to terms with the cost it entails.

These are really not sophisticated concepts.

Because of the offer/demand on TP many drop rates are tweaked constantly…, It’s impossible to pretend it doesn’t exist and it impact us all everyday. The value of whatever you pick up from the floor its set by people in the TP.

- as long as you have a trade option players will be able to get rich through it faster than anything else

Not necessarily. They could fairly easily tweak the tax rates on trading such that the margins on trading are not worth the time involved. Likely whatever system they use would allow you to make some money off of trading alone, but it could be a laughable amount compared to even basic adventuring.

Basically, you should not be able to make money from money. There are two legitimate purposes for the existence of the Trading Post:

1. To allow players to acquire goods that they could not otherwise acquire. This means things that drop randomly, and/or that require a lot of farming. If there is something that you can’t or don’t want to earn off the adventuring world, but someone else has it, the TP allows you to acquire that item via money instead.

2. If you have items that you don’t personally want, you can sell them on the TP for above vendor prices to people with practical use for them.

These are the two fair and legitimate uses of the TP. It is not a good thing for people to be able to purchase items off the TP at one price, and then be able to sell those same items on the TP at a higher price, turning a worthwhile profit in the process. Every item sold on the TP should have been found in the adventuring world by the player who is selling it. Every item purchased on the TP should be used by the player purchasing it. The only people making money off the TP should be people ho build up huge stacks of loot via adventuring, and then turn to the TP to sell it, not people who follow trending patterns in the market and buy low to sell high.

- if you make things drop for you so recently that you can get a legendary with your loot alone than you destroyed any challenge of the original game… or made it a grind fest!

Being able to purchase legendaries with cash money have already negated the challenge factor, that ship has sailed. The “challenge” in acquiring the legendaries has nothing to do with the cash you need to accumulate to get one. That’s easy, if annoying and potentially time consuming. The only actual challenge in gaining a legendary is in World Completetion, Gift of Battle, and maybe the skill-points needed (although you can grind those out too). Everything else is just “accumulation.” If they want legendaries to be “challenging” to acquire then they need a completely different ingredients list, one that could involve zero gold, zero RNG, and just require that you accomplish a series of difficult tasks. In any case raising or lowering the cash needed to produce a Legendary would have absolutely zero impact on the “challenge” factor.

Mourningcry.9428:

Mesket.5728:

John Smith.4610:

Tyria is a its own world. The Black Lion Trading Company exists in that world and plays the roll it was meant to play. The TP was intentionally designed to be part of the game and, much more than real life, you may choose to live how you like inside Tyria. It’s your world to live in.

This basically says nothing John.

It’s a shame how legendaries (and almost all that is needed for it) are inmerse in the TP.

It says enough.

To put it plainly, if you don’t like the TP, pretend it doesn’t exist, and get all your requirements for your legendary via other means – it can absolutely be done. (Just like Aragorn. Heck, maybe you can even be like Bilbo and Gandalf and find named exotics in some random loot pile off some random mob trash…)

If you like the TP, use it, and accept/come to terms with the cost it entails.

These are really not sophisticated concepts.

problem is the designed these systems in a way that makes the TP the best, and almost only way to get said items. The distribution of items is highly random, such that the only way to work towards any specific goal, is to sell said items, and get other items. if you want to get a sword, you either make one, or obtain one from someone who made a sword. The way they designed the economy (which is not just the TP but the overall balance of goods services and what you can get for various activities) The best way to get a sword is to use the TP, because if you try to get a sword yourself, you will unintentionally get axes, scepters clothes, rocks, and other things that only have value to you in the TP, or you can trade it to an npc for gold, which is only useful in the TP.

but i do agree that probably playing ignoring the TPs existence would probably make the game a lot more fun. however they essentially have built the distribution of items to make the TP a requirement in game

Mesket.5728:

Because of the offer/demand on TP many drop rates are tweaked constantly…, It’s impossible to pretend it doesn’t exist and it impact us all everyday. The value of whatever you pick up from the floor its set by people in the TP.

Pure conjecture, unless you have proof into how drop rates are controlled and changed.

Regardless, as I explained above, any acquisition can be directly expressed as a factor of the time required to acquire it. Time is what it comes down to, and the TP offers an alternative to convert other reasources into time. If you don’t want to pay the TP cost, the alternative cost is the amount of time you will now be required to pay in order to get that acquisition.

Further, it only impacts you if time is a consideration. If you don’t have a set expectation of how long it should take you to make an acquisition, the impact of drop rates is inconsequential.

The individual perception of how long it should take to acquire something is entirely arbitrary and varies by person. Conversely, the TP offers a mechanism to circumvent the time required. Again, at a cost.

Mourningcry.9428:

Mesket.5728:

Because of the offer/demand on TP many drop rates are tweaked constantly…, It’s impossible to pretend it doesn’t exist and it impact us all everyday. The value of whatever you pick up from the floor its set by people in the TP.

Pure conjecture, unless you have proof into how drop rates are controlled and changed.

Regardless, as I explained above, any acquisition can be directly expressed as a factor of the time required to acquire it. Time is what it comes down to, and the TP offers an alternative to convert other reasources into time. If you don’t want to pay the TP cost, the alternative cost is the amount of time you will now be required to pay in order to get that acquisition.

Further, it only impacts you if time is a consideration. If you don’t have a set expectation of how long it should take you to make an acquisition, the impact of drop rates is inconsequential.

The individual perception of how long it should take to acquire something is entirely arbitrary and varies by person. Conversely, the TP offers a mechanism to circumvent the time required. Again, at a cost.

When the difference in time is more than ten times it stops being an option. Besides with the current RNG its not even guaranteed you will end up with a legendary even if you play the game for 10 years.

TP currently occupies the vast majority of the end game. Like it or not is a reality and no player who has already achieved most of the things to do outside is able to escape from its reach.

Game is still new… give it a couple more month so everyone finishes leveling their chars and this game will start getting infamous name on external forums and reviews like many other games had… trader wars 2, RNG wars 2, you can imagine them.

Mesket.5728:

When the difference in time is more than ten times it stops being an option. Besides with the current RNG its not even guaranteed you will end up with a legendary even if you play the game for 10 years.

No disrespect, but “ten times” is your own personal opinion, as are those time frames.

However you’re absolutely correct with respect to there being no guarantee. And no where was it ever even hinted at that any player should ever be guaranteed a legendary or any item for that matter. However, if a player wishes a gaurantee to acquire something, they can absolutely do so at a cost.

And that, right there is where the TP comes in. Again, as I said before, it offers a set rate of exchange from resources to time to acquire. The issue is the willingness to pay the cost of that exchange.

Mourningcry.9428:

Mesket.5728:

Because of the offer/demand on TP many drop rates are tweaked constantly…, It’s impossible to pretend it doesn’t exist and it impact us all everyday. The value of whatever you pick up from the floor its set by people in the TP.

Pure conjecture, unless you have proof into how drop rates are controlled and changed.

Regardless, as I explained above, any acquisition can be directly expressed as a factor of the time required to acquire it. Time is what it comes down to, and the TP offers an alternative to convert other reasources into time. If you don’t want to pay the TP cost, the alternative cost is the amount of time you will now be required to pay in order to get that acquisition.

Further, it only impacts you if time is a consideration. If you don’t have a set expectation of how long it should take you to make an acquisition, the impact of drop rates is inconsequential.

The individual perception of how long it should take to acquire something is entirely arbitrary and varies by person. Conversely, the TP offers a mechanism to circumvent the time required. Again, at a cost.

i dont think any one is denying they change and alter drop rates for the purpose of the economy. its happened numerous times already.
drop rates and consumption rates on wood, drop rates on butter, what type of items undead drop, drop rate of precursors has been tweaked various times. Even before it gets in game, designs people have to run reward idea by john smith and some others, he mentions it in his interview, and another Dev mentioned having to run ideas by the economy guys to make sure thier ideas dont blow up the economy.

The Tp is only one facet of the economy, but in a game, the devs control most facets. How much items an ascended item cost is also part of the econmists/item guys baliwick. So yeah, if people are discussing the economy, it isnt just about the TP, its also about the worth of their goods and services, and how they can go about obtaining items, through any means.

phys.7689:

i dont think any one is denying they change and alter drop rates for the purpose of the economy. its happened numerous times already.
drop rates and consumption rates on wood, drop rates on butter, what type of items undead drop, drop rate of precursors has been tweaked various times. Even before it gets in game, designs people have to run reward idea by john smith and some others, he mentions it in his interview, and another Dev mentioned having to run ideas by the economy guys to make sure thier ideas dont blow up the economy.

The Tp is only one facet of the economy, but in a game, the devs control most facets. How much items an ascended item cost is also part of the econmists/item guys baliwick. So yeah, if people are discussing the economy, it isnt just about the TP, its also about the worth of their goods and services, and how they can go about obtaining items, through any means.

Completely understood, and very reasonable. You make a very solid point that the TP is really just one facet. There are alternatives. The other means of acquisition have unfortunately fallen into shadow behind the attention garnered by the TP.

How to make these other means more viable is really something that merits discussion. And by this I don’t mean simply increasing drop rates. Rather, alternative methods, should be investigated.