Guild Wars 2

Behellagh.1468:

This is another case where the colloquial definition of a word has a very different meaning from how it’s used in a particular subject matter. The same way in science the Theory means a widely tested and accepted fact when theory to the public means a conjecture and supposition.

When Smooth uses monetary value it’s in the very specific definition of Economics. Gems in and of themselves have no value and therefore can’t be used to as a transitory property to equate cash that has a monetary value to in-game gold earned by playing the game.

Both Cash, and In Game Gold can be used to Purchase Virtual Goods and Services which have real world value. Therefore Both In game Gold, and Real world cash have economic Monetary value.

The problem is, he is entitled to his opinion, it doesn’t agree with mine, so be it. he is Not entitled to his own facts.

Just because he does Not believe that in game gold has monetary value, does Not mean it doesn’t.

If a teenager sweeps the front of my garage so I can move my car, and i happen to own a restaurant, and tell him " Look I’m tapped for cash, but here’s a coupon worth a $500 meal at my restaurant. As long as he spends it at my restaurant that coupon is worth $500 because someone else would have to spend $500 in cash to obtain the same meal.

Either Virtual Goods and Services have real world value or they don’t.

My opinion is, they do. As such any effort expended that can then be exchanged for them, also has real world value.

Smooth Penguin’s opinion is that Virtual Goods and Services lack real world value, so unless it is real world cash that is being exchanged then it does NOT have real world value.

We disagree, our opinions are not the same. That doesn’t make his opinions.. facts.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Wow. Just. Wow. This post is too high level for me to comprehend. Randomly assigning value to a non-value activity in the past…

Ahem, again, Gems have no monetary value, as per the User Agreement. It’s your own “perception” of value.

I was looking for the right words, but you got it here. I mean, unless we are missing a crystal ball or time machine, I can’t begin to understand how random assignment of arbitrary monetary value to time that has already past has ANYTHING to do with determining the value of … anything, including ingame things. I’m just glad that the Anet devs don’t exhibit or buy into this level of nonsense, or we would be screwed.

Nerelith.7360:

Behellagh.1468:

This is another case where the colloquial definition of a word has a very different meaning from how it’s used in a particular subject matter. The same way in science the Theory means a widely tested and accepted fact when theory to the public means a conjecture and supposition.

When Smooth uses monetary value it’s in the very specific definition of Economics. Gems in and of themselves have no value and therefore can’t be used to as a transitory property to equate cash that has a monetary value to in-game gold earned by playing the game.

Both Cash, and In Game Gold can be used to Purchase Virtual Goods and Services which have real world value. Therefore Both In game Gold, and Real world cash have economic Monetary value.

The problem is, he is entitled to his opinion, it doesn’t agree with mine, so be it. he is Not entitled to his own facts.

Just because he does Not believe that in game gold has monetary value, does Not mean it doesn’t.

If a teenager sweeps the front of my garage so I can move my car, and i happen to own a restaurant, and tell him " Look I’m tapped for cash, but here’s a coupon worth a $500 meal at my restaurant. As long as he spends it at my restaurant that coupon is worth $500 because someone else would have to spend $500 in cash to obtain the same meal.

Either Virtual Goods and Services have real world value or they don’t.

My opinion is, they do. As such any effort expended that can then be exchanged for them, also has real world value.

Smooth Penguin’s opinion is that Virtual Goods and Services lack real world value, so unless it is real world cash that is being exchanged then it does NOT have real world value.

We disagree, our opinions are not the same. That doesn’t make his opinions.. facts.

Real world money can be used to purchase Gems, but once the transaction is complete, the Gems no longer have any monetary value. Gold and Time have no monetary value either. Again, these are facts. You’re confusing your perception of value with reality.

Obtena.7952:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Wow. Just. Wow. This post is too high level for me to comprehend. Randomly assigning value to a non-value activity in the past…

Ahem, again, Gems have no monetary value, as per the User Agreement. It’s your own “perception” of value.

I was looking for the right words, but you got it here. I mean, unless we are missing a crystal ball or time machine, I can’t begin to understand how random assignment of arbitrary monetary value to time that has already past has ANYTHING to do with determining the value of … anything, including ingame things. I’m just glad that the Anet devs don’t exhibit or buy into this level of nonsense, or we would be screwed.

I should assign a monetary value to the economics lesson that I’ve been giving in this thread. Then I could afford more Gems!

Along with personal enjoyment a player can generate gold, items, or skills through playtime, which is valued by the market, but not the player at the time of acquisition. The time at which the player decides to trade for other things, he engages in barter trade and thus assesses the value of his own playtime. While usually this falls inline with market values, sometimes it does not, and the player refuses to trade due to a different opinion on valuation. Thus no value is actually assigned and realized through trade, only potential that is unrealized.

Again any time may have value, and that potential value can be generally forecast from the market, but is not realized until a decision is made to engage in trade to pursue it. In an mmo based around rewards, most players engage in trade and assign values to their own playtime and actively compare with the going market rate. Since we are debating very abstract concepts specific language is necessary. Sweeping statements that all player activity intrinsically have (rather than just potentially have) economic value are inaccurate and should be further clarified.

Also I think a key difference in any activity in game compared to the real world is that all content is, on paper, equally accessible for all players at all times. So from a certain perspective, you could make an argument that due to the cash -> gems -> gold exchange (which gives gems/gold no de jure monetary value in the real world, but does in effect infer a de facto currency based market determined value on gold) , any in game activity, even when not engaging in any trade, has a real calculable opportunity cost in relation to the value of a theoretical “maximum gold generation rate” activity.

The way i see it anything that can be sold for money has a monetary value.

monetary value – the property of having material worth (often indicated by the amount of money something would bring if sold)monetary value – the property of having material worth (often indicated by the amount of money something would bring if sold)

Anet sells my gold
therefore my gold must have a monetary value.

case closed.

dodgycookies.4562:

Along with personal enjoyment a player can generate gold, items, or skills through playtime, which is valued by the market, but not the player at the time of acquisition. The time at which the player decides to trade for other things, he engages in barter trade and thus assesses the value of his own playtime. While usually this falls inline with market values, sometimes it does not, and the player refuses to trade due to a different opinion on valuation. Thus no value is actually assigned and realized through trade, only potential that is unrealized.

Again any time may have value, and that potential value can be generally forecast from the market, but is not realized until a decision is made to engage in trade to pursue it. In an mmo based around rewards, most players engage in trade and assign values to their own playtime and actively compare with the going market rate. Since we are debating very abstract concepts specific language is necessary. Sweeping statements that all player activity intrinsically have (rather than just potentially have) economic value are inaccurate and should be further clarified.

Also I think a key difference in any activity in game compared to the real world is that all content is, on paper, equally accessible for all players at all times. So from a certain perspective, you could make an argument that due to the cash -> gems -> gold exchange (which gives gems/gold no de jure monetary value in the real world, but does in effect infer a de facto currency based market determined value on gold) , any in game activity, even when not engaging in any trade, has a real calculable opportunity cost in relation to the value of a theoretical “maximum gold generation rate” activity.

I don’t discount the in-game value of items acquired through game play, or the time it takes to farm it. Time in this sense has value, but not monetary value.

phys.7689:

The way i see it anything that can be sold for money has a monetary value.

monetary value – the property of having material worth (often indicated by the amount of money something would bring if sold)monetary value – the property of having material worth (often indicated by the amount of money something would bring if sold)

Anet sells my gold
therefore my gold must have a monetary value.

case closed.

Anet doesn’t sell Gold, it sells Gems. And per the User Agreement, Gems have no monetary value. You agreed to this when you first made your account.

Appeals Court opens case, and vacates the lower court’s findings.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Obtena.7952:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Wow. Just. Wow. This post is too high level for me to comprehend. Randomly assigning value to a non-value activity in the past…

Ahem, again, Gems have no monetary value, as per the User Agreement. It’s your own “perception” of value.

I was looking for the right words, but you got it here. I mean, unless we are missing a crystal ball or time machine, I can’t begin to understand how random assignment of arbitrary monetary value to time that has already past has ANYTHING to do with determining the value of … anything, including ingame things. I’m just glad that the Anet devs don’t exhibit or buy into this level of nonsense, or we would be screwed.

I should assign a monetary value to the economics lesson that I’ve been giving in this thread. Then I could afford more Gems!

Oh, I see how this works.

There is monetary value in me making this post and therefore … I think I should get a legendary. KABLAMMO!

Obtena.7952:

Nerelith.7360:

I agree. Time has no monetary value, unless it is time in which monetary value is assigned.

The difference is, that I believe that based on future decisions, and actions past time can be assigned monetary value.

I can’t respond to this because it makes no sense to me. so depending on what you decide to do in the future, your time may or may not be worth money? You’re going to have to explain it.

It sounds to me like you’re confusing potential to make money because you have free time with an actual amount of time you set aside to make money; a job. Those aren’t the same thing and that’s not a realistic view. At this point, I think the whole argument is just academic so I will get back to the real point.

Anet doesn’t care if your time has value or not. That’s not how the rewards in the game are determined. Value or not, the player decides how their time is spent and what value it has. In either case where the time may or not be valuable, there are equivalent methods to achieve the same rewards in GW2 because you can buy gems with RL money or IG Gold, so whatever way an individual player falls on the spectrum of ‘time=money’, it’s fair and equivalent.

yes, depending on what you decide to do in the future your time may be worth money.

this is why even though you may think it is arbitrary you cant tell until the item is sold.
For example, van gogh made a lot of painting which never sold during his lifetime. At the time, the assumed monetary value of his time was very low.
but right now?
that value is huge.
Essentially, you dont know the value of your time till some one figures out how to sell it. Many recreational activities have had huge economic value. Business men are rich because they figure out how much money you, and other peoples time is worth, especially the time you guys think is worthless.

^^ Yeah I know .. I just decided because I made this post that the last few minutes had monetary value of … $1000. Just have to wait for someone acknowledge it and send me the cash …. just like Van Gogh and his art.

BTW, didn’t he die poor like most artists?

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

The way i see it anything that can be sold for money has a monetary value.

monetary value – the property of having material worth (often indicated by the amount of money something would bring if sold)monetary value – the property of having material worth (often indicated by the amount of money something would bring if sold)

Anet sells my gold
therefore my gold must have a monetary value.

case closed.

Anet doesn’t sell Gold, it sells Gems. And per the User Agreement, Gems have no monetary value. You agreed to this when you first made your account.

Appeals Court opens case, and vacates the lower court’s findings.

they sell gold, your assertion that gems is somehow something different is like saying xboxlive doesnt sell games, they sell microsft points.

Obtena.7952:

^^ Yeah I know .. I just decided because I made this post that the last few minutes had monetary value of … $1000. Just have to wait for someone acknowledge it and send me the cash …. just like Van Gogh and his art.

BTW, didn’t he die poor like most artists?

yes, thats the point.
the value of his time wasnt not realized until after he died.
this is why you cannot simply say your time is worthless.

anything you can sell has monetary value. thats what it boils down to. If you actually can sell your forum posts to someone for 1000, then it has a monetary value of 1000 dollars

Yes, I think I learned these economics from South Park Lawn Gnomes

1. Time is Money
2. ???
3. Buy stuff with money

Obtena.7952:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Obtena.7952:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Wow. Just. Wow. This post is too high level for me to comprehend. Randomly assigning value to a non-value activity in the past…

Ahem, again, Gems have no monetary value, as per the User Agreement. It’s your own “perception” of value.

I was looking for the right words, but you got it here. I mean, unless we are missing a crystal ball or time machine, I can’t begin to understand how random assignment of arbitrary monetary value to time that has already past has ANYTHING to do with determining the value of … anything, including ingame things. I’m just glad that the Anet devs don’t exhibit or buy into this level of nonsense, or we would be screwed.

I should assign a monetary value to the economics lesson that I’ve been giving in this thread. Then I could afford more Gems!

Oh, I see how this works.

There is monetary value in me making this post and therefore … I think I should get a legendary. KABLAMMO!

It’s more true for me, as I’ve been doing all this while at work. I’m actually behind in some of my assignments, because I’ve been hiding on the forums for the past 7+ hours. So now my forum time has a monetary value of taxpayer dollars being wasted on my salary! But the government has plenty of money, so no harm done.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Nerelith.7360:

The User agreement cannot contravene the science of economics. It’s a legal position, not an economic one. We will have to agree to disagree.

It also applies economically, since Gems don’t have monetary value, nor does Time.

That is your opinion. You are welcome to believe it. That doesn’t make your opinion fact.

Nerelith.7360:

That is your opinion. You are welcome to believe it. That doesn’t make your opinion fact.

The issue here is that since you don’t understand the concept at hand, you’re assuming these are my opinions. Each of your posts are opinions, because they’re based on a conceptual idea of value. Since everything I stated is based on facts, my arguments are correct. To put it a different way, you’re speaking in shades of gray, while I’m speak in terms of black and white.

Nerelith.7360:

Both Cash, and In Game Gold can be used to Purchase Virtual Goods and Services which have real world value. Therefore Both In game Gold, and Real world cash have economic Monetary value.

Ah… here is the issue.

In game gold and virtual goods and services have a COST. You have conflated cost with value.

Virtual goods and services have no value, but they do have a cost. When you buy them, you are exchanging real world value for virtual items with no value.

mtpelion.4562:

Nerelith.7360:

Both Cash, and In Game Gold can be used to Purchase Virtual Goods and Services which have real world value. Therefore Both In game Gold, and Real world cash have economic Monetary value.

Ah… here is the issue.

In game gold and virtual goods and services have a COST. You have conflated cost with value.

Virtual goods and services have no value, but they do have a cost. When you buy them, you are exchanging real world value for virtual items with no value.

I am going to leave this discussion be, since all I am doing is going around and around repeating myself, as you go round and round repeating yourselves.

You have your opinion, I have mine, let’s agree to disagree, as neither is going to convince the other at this point. We each have our own opinions.

Mine is that your opinions as mine are opinions, yours is that your opinions are facts.

Since neither is going to convince the other we may as well admit that this is just a waste of time as we argue in circles. I am sure I will again be told that your opinions are facts, but i am bowing out.

Nerelith.7360:

mtpelion.4562:

Nerelith.7360:

Both Cash, and In Game Gold can be used to Purchase Virtual Goods and Services which have real world value. Therefore Both In game Gold, and Real world cash have economic Monetary value.

Ah… here is the issue.

In game gold and virtual goods and services have a COST. You have conflated cost with value.

Virtual goods and services have no value, but they do have a cost. When you buy them, you are exchanging real world value for virtual items with no value.

I am going to leave this discussion be, since all I am doing is going around and around repeating myself, as you go round and round repeating yourselves.

You have your opinion, I have mine, let’s agree to disagree, as neither is going to convince the other at this point. We each have our own opinions.

Mine is that your opinions as mine are opinions, yours is that your opinions are facts.

Since neither is going to convince the other we may as well admit that this is just a waste of time as we argue in circles. I am sure I will again be told that your opinions are facts, but i am bowing out.

If it were a matter of opinion, I’d agree to disagree. It is a matter of you being factually incorrect on this point, however.

Virtual items have no value because they cannot be resold. Value is what you can acquire with them, not what they cost to acquire (this is “cost” which is completely independent of value). Since you can acquire NOTHING with virtual items, they have NO VALUE whatsoever.

This is the case in all situations where your right of first sale has been violated.

mtpelion.4562:

Nerelith.7360:

Both Cash, and In Game Gold can be used to Purchase Virtual Goods and Services which have real world value. Therefore Both In game Gold, and Real world cash have economic Monetary value.

Ah… here is the issue.

In game gold and virtual goods and services have a COST. You have conflated cost with value.

Virtual goods and services have no value, but they do have a cost. When you buy them, you are exchanging real world value for virtual items with no value.

monetary value and cost are actually synonomous. Which makes sense, because by having a cost, it basically means it has a material worth.

“The amount of value an item or a service has in relation to if it were sold for cash to a The amount of value an item or a service has in relation to if it were sold for cash to a willing buyer.”

if you guys really want to look at economics, yalll need a better concept of what “price” and “currency” really are all about.

anything you are willing to pay for, has a monetary value, anything someone is willing to buy, has monetary value.

gold now has monetary value, because anet is selling it.

Nerelith is letting you guys off by saying its a matter of opinion, it really isnt. This is a matter of logic, and definitions.

“the property of having material worth (often indicated by the amount of money something would bring if sold)
“the fluctuating monetary value of gold and silver”

Synonyms:
cost, price "

stop trying focusing on trying to prove people wrong, and actually try to understand/research what people are saying. Do yall have to agree with each other because yall are usually on the same side or something?

the opinions you guys are presenting here are 100% incorrect. by logic/theory/definition.

mtpelion.4562:

Nerelith.7360:

mtpelion.4562:

Nerelith.7360:

Both Cash, and In Game Gold can be used to Purchase Virtual Goods and Services which have real world value. Therefore Both In game Gold, and Real world cash have economic Monetary value.

Ah… here is the issue.

In game gold and virtual goods and services have a COST. You have conflated cost with value.

Virtual goods and services have no value, but they do have a cost. When you buy them, you are exchanging real world value for virtual items with no value.

I am going to leave this discussion be, since all I am doing is going around and around repeating myself, as you go round and round repeating yourselves.

You have your opinion, I have mine, let’s agree to disagree, as neither is going to convince the other at this point. We each have our own opinions.

Mine is that your opinions as mine are opinions, yours is that your opinions are facts.

Since neither is going to convince the other we may as well admit that this is just a waste of time as we argue in circles. I am sure I will again be told that your opinions are facts, but i am bowing out.

If it were a matter of opinion, I’d agree to disagree. It is a matter of you being factually incorrect on this point, however.

Virtual items have no value because they cannot be resold. Value is what you can acquire with them, not what they cost to acquire (this is “cost” which is completely independent of value). Since you can acquire NOTHING with virtual items, they have NO VALUE whatsoever.

This is the case in all situations where your right of first sale has been violated.

no petelion, they have value because they were sold to begin with, a cost is infact a monetary value.

that was the monetary value when you bought the item.

gold is sold by anet even after i have it, therefore even by your inccorrect stance, it still has monetary value.
this is why monetary value is about what people are willing to pay for something.
its a price.

phys.7689:

mtpelion.4562:

Nerelith.7360:

mtpelion.4562:

Nerelith.7360:

Both Cash, and In Game Gold can be used to Purchase Virtual Goods and Services which have real world value. Therefore Both In game Gold, and Real world cash have economic Monetary value.

Ah… here is the issue.

In game gold and virtual goods and services have a COST. You have conflated cost with value.

Virtual goods and services have no value, but they do have a cost. When you buy them, you are exchanging real world value for virtual items with no value.

I am going to leave this discussion be, since all I am doing is going around and around repeating myself, as you go round and round repeating yourselves.

You have your opinion, I have mine, let’s agree to disagree, as neither is going to convince the other at this point. We each have our own opinions.

Mine is that your opinions as mine are opinions, yours is that your opinions are facts.

Since neither is going to convince the other we may as well admit that this is just a waste of time as we argue in circles. I am sure I will again be told that your opinions are facts, but i am bowing out.

If it were a matter of opinion, I’d agree to disagree. It is a matter of you being factually incorrect on this point, however.

Virtual items have no value because they cannot be resold. Value is what you can acquire with them, not what they cost to acquire (this is “cost” which is completely independent of value). Since you can acquire NOTHING with virtual items, they have NO VALUE whatsoever.

This is the case in all situations where your right of first sale has been violated.

no petelion, they have value because they were sold to begin with, a cost is infact a monetary value.

that was the monetary value when you bought the item.

gold is sold by anet even after i have it, therefore even by your inccorrect stance, it still has monetary value.
this is why monetary value is about what people are willing to pay for something.
its a price.

That is incredibly incorrect. The cost of acquisition plays no part in the value of something you hold. Even if your position was true and the acquisition cost determined the value of something, when you are prohibited from reselling the item you acquired (as with all virtual items), you’d STILL be incredibly incorrect.

mtpelion.4562:

phys.7689:

mtpelion.4562:

Nerelith.7360:

mtpelion.4562:

Nerelith.7360:

Both Cash, and In Game Gold can be used to Purchase Virtual Goods and Services which have real world value. Therefore Both In game Gold, and Real world cash have economic Monetary value.

Ah… here is the issue.

In game gold and virtual goods and services have a COST. You have conflated cost with value.

Virtual goods and services have no value, but they do have a cost. When you buy them, you are exchanging real world value for virtual items with no value.

I am going to leave this discussion be, since all I am doing is going around and around repeating myself, as you go round and round repeating yourselves.

You have your opinion, I have mine, let’s agree to disagree, as neither is going to convince the other at this point. We each have our own opinions.

Mine is that your opinions as mine are opinions, yours is that your opinions are facts.

Since neither is going to convince the other we may as well admit that this is just a waste of time as we argue in circles. I am sure I will again be told that your opinions are facts, but i am bowing out.

If it were a matter of opinion, I’d agree to disagree. It is a matter of you being factually incorrect on this point, however.

Virtual items have no value because they cannot be resold. Value is what you can acquire with them, not what they cost to acquire (this is “cost” which is completely independent of value). Since you can acquire NOTHING with virtual items, they have NO VALUE whatsoever.

This is the case in all situations where your right of first sale has been violated.

no petelion, they have value because they were sold to begin with, a cost is infact a monetary value.

that was the monetary value when you bought the item.

gold is sold by anet even after i have it, therefore even by your inccorrect stance, it still has monetary value.
this is why monetary value is about what people are willing to pay for something.
its a price.

That is incredibly incorrect. The cost of acquisition plays no part in the value of something you hold. Even if your position was true and the acquisition cost determined the value of something, when you are prohibited from reselling the item you acquired (as with all virtual items), you’d STILL be incredibly incorrect.

first of all it isnt about what one person can do with something, its about what it is worth.
look at the definitions. AND like i said, even by your definition, anet is selling the gold you trade to them, that means it still has an economic value. Just because i particularly cannot sell an item doesnt mean it has no monetary value.

does the work of slaves have no monetary value, because they cannot specifically sell their own work? shocking because there was a lot of people who placed monetary value on their work and profited off of them.

how much someone is willing to pay for something is the monetary value of that item.

look it up man, every single definition supports what i am saying. Its monetary value isnt necessarily what you yourself can sell it for, its how much it can be sold for.

“The value or worth that a product or service would bring to someone if sold.”

the value that you would pay for an item is the monetary value of that item because, Any time anyone buys something, or pays for it, they are showing how much it can be sold for.

stop trying to be right, and start trying to understand what actually is. look it up, you will see it again and again.

phys.7689:

first of all it isnt about what one person can do with something, its about what it is worth.
look at the definitions. AND like i said, even by your definition, anet is selling the gold you trade to them, that means it still has an economic value. Just because i particularly cannot sell an item doesnt mean it has no monetary value.

does the work of slaves have no monetary value, because they cannot specifically sell their own work? shocking because there was a lot of people who placed monetary value on their work and profited off of them.

how much someone is willing to pay for something is the monetary value of that item.

The monetary value of gems only exists when ArenaNet holds them. Once you buy them, the monetary value is gone as you are unable to ever recoup anything of value for them.

If you sell Beanie Babies for $10 each and people buy them for $10 each, then the Beanie Babies you have are worth $10. If I am stupid and offer you $1,000,000 for a $10 Beanie Baby and you make the deal, is my Beanie Baby worth the $1,000,000 that I paid for it, or is it worth the $10 that every other person on the planet is willing to pay me for it?

That is the difference between cost and value. I paid a cost that was much higher than the value of the item. The cost I paid has no bearing on the value of the item once I acquire it as the value is determined by what I can get for it should I decide to sell it.

Since you aren’t allowed to sell any of your virtual goods, they have no value. They have a value to ArenaNet before they are sold to you, but that value vanishes the instant you acquire them.

mtpelion.4562:

phys.7689:

first of all it isnt about what one person can do with something, its about what it is worth.
look at the definitions. AND like i said, even by your definition, anet is selling the gold you trade to them, that means it still has an economic value. Just because i particularly cannot sell an item doesnt mean it has no monetary value.

does the work of slaves have no monetary value, because they cannot specifically sell their own work? shocking because there was a lot of people who placed monetary value on their work and profited off of them.

how much someone is willing to pay for something is the monetary value of that item.

The monetary value of gems only exists when ArenaNet holds them. Once you buy them, the monetary value is gone as you are unable to ever recoup anything of value for them.

If you sell Beanie Babies for $10 each and people buy them for $10 each, then the Beanie Babies you have are worth $10. If I am stupid and offer you $1,000,000 for a $10 Beanie Baby and you make the deal, is my Beanie Baby worth the $1,000,000 that I paid for it, or is it worth the $10 that every other person on the planet is willing to pay me for it?

That is the difference between cost and value. I paid a cost that was much higher than the value of the item. The cost I paid has no bearing on the value of the item once I acquire it as the value is determined by what I can get for it should I decide to sell it.

Since you aren’t allowed to sell any of your virtual goods, they have no value. They have a value to ArenaNet before they are sold to you, but that value vanishes the instant you acquire them.

even by your own theory you are still incorrect because anet can make money off my gold.

It still has a monetary value to anet even after i have it. When i go turn gold into gems, anet takes that gold i gave them, and sells it to someone else.

Still has monetary value, it can still be sold. just because i myself cant sell it, doesnt mean it doesnt have monetary value.

Anet sells the virtual goods you provide them. that means your service of providing goods has a monetary value to anet.

which means your time has value to anet, even if you arent giving them money by buying gems, you are still of monetary value to anet because they can sell your services.

btw this discussion comes from the monetary value of gold, and monetary value of time played earning gold to get gems. smooth brought up gems to make some point, but its not really the central premise.

phys.7689:

even by your own theory you are still incorrect because anet can make money off my gold.

It still has a monetary value to anet even after i have it. When i go turn gold into gems, anet takes that gold i gave them, and sells it to someone else.

Still has monetary value, it can still be sold. just because i myself cant sell it, doesnt mean it doesnt have monetary value.

Anet sells the virtual goods you provide them. that means your service of providing goods has a monetary value to anet.

which means your time has value to anet, even if you arent giving them money by buying gems, you are still of monetary value to anet because they can sell your services.

Now you are changing the entire discussion to be about whether there is value for ArenaNet.

Of course ArenaNet has value for virtual items because they are the only ones permitted to sell them.

The discussion has been about whether they have any value while you hold them, which they do not because you cannot monetize them.

point is, gold → gem sellers are giving anet something of monetary value.
they create a product which anet sells.

Nerelith.7360:

I am going to leave this discussion be, since all I am doing is going around and around repeating myself, as you go round and round repeating yourselves.

You have your opinion, I have mine, let’s agree to disagree, as neither is going to convince the other at this point. We each have our own opinions.

Mine is that your opinions as mine are opinions, yours is that your opinions are facts.

Since neither is going to convince the other we may as well admit that this is just a waste of time as we argue in circles. I am sure I will again be told that your opinions are facts, but i am bowing out.

This isn’t an issue of a difference in opinions. It’s an issue where you have an opinion, and I have facts. Time has no monetary value, outside of opportunities to earn money with said Time. You believe in the concept of value, and mistakenly assume that your time now has the equivalent of monetary value. Because you wholeheartedly believe in your opinions, you’re dismissing everything else that doesn’t conform to your beliefs. It’s like when people used to think the world was flat. That was an opinion, based on their beliefs that the world ended at the horizon.

phys.7689:

point is, gold -> gem sellers are giving anet something of monetary value.
they create a product which anet sells.

Gold has no monetary value. Gems have no monetary value. Gem sellers are giving Anet something of “in-game value” when they exchange them for Gold.

When you purchase Gems with real money, you’re not paying for Gems, per se. You’re paying for Entertainment, which is a Service they provide. As soon as the Gems are deposited into your in-game account, they have $0 value.

Smith.1826:

Exxcalibur.6203:

I don’t know what fantasy world people live in. Do people seriously expect Anet to keep the game going for free?

No one’s asking for “free” content, rather people question the means.

His comment has NOTHING to do with “free content”. It has to do with the fact that Anet MUST obtain RL money from Gem Store sales to keep the servers running. It’s the economic model this game runs on and complaining about this basic fact of how the game works is a complete waste of time and bandwidth. If you don’t want to spend RL money, Anet HAS provided an option (in-game gold to gems). They have also NEVER sold an item required to progress the game nor any items that provide distinct game play advantages in the Gem Store. It’s ALL vanity and convenience items that are not required to play.

The fact of the matter is, Anet MUST generate RL money Gem Sales or none of us will have a game to play.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

point is, gold -> gem sellers are giving anet something of monetary value.
they create a product which anet sells.

Gold has no monetary value. Gems have no monetary value. Gem sellers are giving Anet something of “in-game value” when they exchange them for Gold.

When you purchase Gems with real money, you’re paying for Gems, per se. You’re paying for Entertainment, which is a Service they provide. As soon as the Gems are deposited into your in-game account, they have $0 value.

I am talking about the value of gold.
and through gold the value of time spent trying to earn gold to sell to anet.

anet sells the gold you give them, therefore gold has monetary value to anet by its very definition.
The gold that players trade to anet has monetary value, that anet realizes the moment they sell it to a player.
gold is product created by the player that anet sells.
any product you can sell has monetary value.

this means the time you spend trying to get gold to get gems has a monetary value to anet.

they have reason to value the gold→gem sellers as well as the people who buy gems.
to put it short, gold→gem sellers are employees, creating a service/good of monetary value. The person who buys gems is the customer, who actually realizes that value.

this is the monetary value of gold right now
1 g costs 0.13 USD to buy through gems.

this exactly how much it is being sold for at this moment.

gold has monetary value by the very definition of monetary value, there is no debate, no question, no opinion.

“The amount of value an item or a service has in relation to if it were sold for cash to a willing buyer.

Read more: http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/monetary-value.html#ixzz3702JTcdb"

there is no wiggle room.
the fact gold is currently being sold by anet, means that gold has value in relation to “if it were sold for cash to a willing buyer”

phys.7689:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

point is, gold -> gem sellers are giving anet something of monetary value.
they create a product which anet sells.

Gold has no monetary value. Gems have no monetary value. Gem sellers are giving Anet something of “in-game value” when they exchange them for Gold.

When you purchase Gems with real money, you’re paying for Gems, per se. You’re paying for Entertainment, which is a Service they provide. As soon as the Gems are deposited into your in-game account, they have $0 value.

I am talking about the value of gold.
and through gold the value of time spent trying to earn gold to sell to anet.

anet sells the gold you give them, therefore gold has monetary value to anet by its very definition.
The gold that players trade to anet has monetary value, that anet realizes the moment they sell it to a player.
gold is product created by the player that anet sells.
any product you can sell has monetary value.

this means the time you spend trying to get gold to get gems has a monetary value to anet.

they have reason to value the gold->gem sellers as well as the people who buy gems.
to put it short, gold->gem sellers are employees, creating a service/good of monetary value. The person who buys gems is the customer, who actually realizes that value.

this is the monetary value of gold right now
1 g costs 0.13 USD to buy through gems.

this exactly how much it is being sold for at this moment.

gold has monetary value by the very definition of monetary value, there is no debate, no question, no opinion.

“The amount of value an item or a service has in relation to if it were sold for cash to a willing buyer.

Read more: http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/monetary-value.html#ixzz3702JTcdb"

there is no wiggle room.
the fact gold is currently being sold by anet, means that gold has value in relation to “if it were sold for cash to a willing buyer”

Gold has no monetary value. Gems have no monetary value. Please read the User Agreement for further clarification:

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2-user-agreement/

Gold has value to ANet. That’s not what is being debated. It’s whether it has value to the player and it doesn’t because all virtual items have no value because you, the player, can’t sell them for cash, unlike the old D3 cash auction house.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

point is, gold -> gem sellers are giving anet something of monetary value.
they create a product which anet sells.

Gold has no monetary value. Gems have no monetary value. Gem sellers are giving Anet something of “in-game value” when they exchange them for Gold.

When you purchase Gems with real money, you’re paying for Gems, per se. You’re paying for Entertainment, which is a Service they provide. As soon as the Gems are deposited into your in-game account, they have $0 value.

I am talking about the value of gold.
and through gold the value of time spent trying to earn gold to sell to anet.

anet sells the gold you give them, therefore gold has monetary value to anet by its very definition.
The gold that players trade to anet has monetary value, that anet realizes the moment they sell it to a player.
gold is product created by the player that anet sells.
any product you can sell has monetary value.

this means the time you spend trying to get gold to get gems has a monetary value to anet.

they have reason to value the gold->gem sellers as well as the people who buy gems.
to put it short, gold->gem sellers are employees, creating a service/good of monetary value. The person who buys gems is the customer, who actually realizes that value.

this is the monetary value of gold right now
1 g costs 0.13 USD to buy through gems.

this exactly how much it is being sold for at this moment.

gold has monetary value by the very definition of monetary value, there is no debate, no question, no opinion.

“The amount of value an item or a service has in relation to if it were sold for cash to a willing buyer.

Read more: http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/monetary-value.html#ixzz3702JTcdb"

there is no wiggle room.
the fact gold is currently being sold by anet, means that gold has value in relation to “if it were sold for cash to a willing buyer”

Gold has no monetary value. Gems have no monetary value. Please read the User Agreement for further clarification:

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2-user-agreement/

the user agreement is not an economic document it is a legal document.
the fact that i cannot legally sell my own gold does not mean anet cannot legally sell your gold. This means anet has secured the rights to cash in on golds monetary value. This is essentially to give them legal authority over gold sellers, and assure that it would be more difficult to sue them for gold losses.

the fact that it can be sold for money is what defines something’s monetary value.
anet is selling gold as we speak, therefore it has monetary value. My agreement is totally irrelvant to the reality that it is being sold for money.

there is no wiggle room, there is no debate.
a word has meaning, and right now this means gold has monetary value because anet is selling it for cash.

Behellagh.1468:

Gold has value to ANet. That’s not what is being debated. It’s whether it has value to the player and it doesn’t because all virtual items have no value because you, the player, can’t sell them for cash, unlike the old D3 cash auction house.

actually the debate is wether gold has value, and whether anet is makes money off of gold->gem sales
the answer is they do, because those users are creating a product of monetary value for anet to sell.

short version is, they are not giving players items for free, they are giving the players items in exchange for services rendered by the player, that anet will then profit off of.

your time spent creating gold for gems has a monetary value to anet is the long and short of it.

it doesnt matter if i specifically can profit off of something, as long as it can be sold. The gold in my inventory can be sold, therefor, it has monetary value.

the fact that a horse cannot sell rides, does not mean that horse rides do not have a monetary value.

phys.7689:

the user agreement is not an economic document it is a legal document.
the fact that i cannot legally sell my own gold does not mean anet cannot legally sell your gold. This means anet has secured the rights to cash in on golds monetary value. This is essentially to give them legal authority over gold sellers, and assure that it would be more difficult to sue them for gold losses.

the fact that it can be sold for money is what defines something’s monetary value.
anet is selling gold as we speak, therefore it has monetary value. My agreement is totally irrelvant to the reality that it is being sold for money.

there is no wiggle room, there is no debate.
a word has meaning, and right now this means gold has monetary value because anet is selling it for cash.

Gold has no monetary value. Gems have no monetary value. When you purchase Gems with real money, you are given something which has no monetary value. Just like going to the movies. You buy a ticket to get in. The ticket has monetary value, because you can ask for a refund should you change your mind. The movie itself is what you paid to see, and the “Entertainment value” is given in exchange for your money. You can’t say that the movie has monetary value, just because you paid money to see it.

You’re right that there’s no wiggle room and no debate. So why do you insist that something has monetary value, when there isn’t any? Your opinions vs my facts.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

the user agreement is not an economic document it is a legal document.
the fact that i cannot legally sell my own gold does not mean anet cannot legally sell your gold. This means anet has secured the rights to cash in on golds monetary value. This is essentially to give them legal authority over gold sellers, and assure that it would be more difficult to sue them for gold losses.

the fact that it can be sold for money is what defines something’s monetary value.
anet is selling gold as we speak, therefore it has monetary value. My agreement is totally irrelvant to the reality that it is being sold for money.

there is no wiggle room, there is no debate.
a word has meaning, and right now this means gold has monetary value because anet is selling it for cash.

Gold has no monetary value. Gems have no monetary value. When you purchase Gems with real money, you are given something which has no monetary value. Just like going to the movies. You buy a ticket to get in. The ticket has monetary value, because you can ask for a refund should you change your mind. The movie itself is what you paid to see, and the “Entertainment value” is given in exchange for your money. You can’t say that the movie has monetary value, just because you paid money to see it.

You’re right that there’s no wiggle room and no debate. So why do you insist that something has monetary value, when there isn’t any? Your opinions vs my facts.

ok, my bad, i see now, you are a troll testing your ability to either make people believe something that is obviously not correct, or perhaps just to see how long i will continue to try to explain something you already know to be true.

in either case, for those who are reading and pay attention, the truth is there, the definition is there, now you know.

I highly suggest the other people who seek knowlege/profit apply the true definitions of monetary value, so they can make money off the things that people think have no value, and get people to give you goods and services at better value, because they dont understand monetary value.

like anet who actually get more money for the same product when gold→gem seller buys a costume, than when a cash buyer buys a costume.

to those who want to be like smooth, keep going out of business.

phys.7689:

~~~ snip ~~~

I’m getting you didn’t bother to read the User Agreement. Here’s the part that supports my arguments:

4. ACCOUNT AND PAYMENTS TO NCSOFT
(d) Gems
(vii) You acknowledge that Gems are digital material with no cash value, that no interest is paid or earned with respect to Gems, that Gems are not personal property, that the quantity of Gems in Your Account may be increased or decreased by NCSOFT in its sole and absolute discretion for any reason or no reason whatsoever, that You have no right to a refund related to Gems, that there is no right to transfer or exchange Gems, and that NCSOFT may limit Your license to use Gems with respect to any Item, service, Content or time period related thereto. You further acknowledge that additional restrictions related to Gems, as determined in the sole and absolute discretion of NCSOFT, may be applicable if, and when, Gems are made available to You or thereafter. NCSOFT may restrict the award or use of Gems based on Your country of residence or other factors.

You agreed to these terms as well. So in essence, you’re arguing with yourself.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

~~~ snip ~~~

I’m getting you didn’t bother to read the User Agreement. Here’s the part that supports my arguments:

4. ACCOUNT AND PAYMENTS TO NCSOFT
(d) Gems
(vii) You acknowledge that Gems are digital material with no cash value, that no interest is paid or earned with respect to Gems, that Gems are not personal property, that the quantity of Gems in Your Account may be increased or decreased by NCSOFT in its sole and absolute discretion for any reason or no reason whatsoever, that You have no right to a refund related to Gems, that there is no right to transfer or exchange Gems, and that NCSOFT may limit Your license to use Gems with respect to any Item, service, Content or time period related thereto. You further acknowledge that additional restrictions related to Gems, as determined in the sole and absolute discretion of NCSOFT, may be applicable if, and when, Gems are made available to You or thereafter. NCSOFT may restrict the award or use of Gems based on Your country of residence or other factors.

You agreed to these terms as well. So in essence, you’re arguing with yourself.

go to legal school and find out what a user agreement actually means.

phys.7689:

(…)
like anet who actually get more money for the same product when gold->gem seller buys a costume, than when a cash buyer buys a costume.

(…)

Hold it … you are saying I should stop buying gems with real hard digital cash and instead use the in-game currency because this is better for Anet?

Rouven.7409:

phys.7689:

(…)
like anet who actually get more money for the same product when gold->gem seller buys a costume, than when a cash buyer buys a costume.

(…)

Hold it … you are saying I should stop buying gems with real hard digital cash and instead use the in-game currency because this is better for Anet?

as long as you dont mind working a lot harder for the same benefit(if you are going to earn the gold yourself.)
if you really want them to get the most money per purchase, without slaving away for days, buy gems, turn it to gold, then turn the gold to gems and buy the gem store item.

or you could just by tons of gems and do nothing with them.

but if you want them to get the most money per item produced, yeah buy gold, sell gold for gems.

phys.7689:

if you really want them to get the most money per purchase, without slaving away for days, buy gems, turn it to gold, then turn the gold to gems and buy the gem store item.

Except ArenaNet makes the exact same amount of money.

If I pay $10 for gems, convert those gems into gold, convert that gold into gems, and then buy a gem store item, ArenaNet made $10.

If I pay $10 for gems and then buy a gem store item, ArenaNet made $10.

It doesn’t matter if you buy gems yourself or use gold to buy gems, ArenaNet makes the same amount of money because SOMEONE had to buy the gems with real money before you could buy those gems with gold.

phys.7689:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

~~~ snip ~~~

I’m getting you didn’t bother to read the User Agreement. Here’s the part that supports my arguments:

4. ACCOUNT AND PAYMENTS TO NCSOFT
(d) Gems
(vii) You acknowledge that Gems are digital material with no cash value, that no interest is paid or earned with respect to Gems, that Gems are not personal property, that the quantity of Gems in Your Account may be increased or decreased by NCSOFT in its sole and absolute discretion for any reason or no reason whatsoever, that You have no right to a refund related to Gems, that there is no right to transfer or exchange Gems, and that NCSOFT may limit Your license to use Gems with respect to any Item, service, Content or time period related thereto. You further acknowledge that additional restrictions related to Gems, as determined in the sole and absolute discretion of NCSOFT, may be applicable if, and when, Gems are made available to You or thereafter. NCSOFT may restrict the award or use of Gems based on Your country of residence or other factors.

You agreed to these terms as well. So in essence, you’re arguing with yourself.

go to legal school and find out what a user agreement actually means.

I did! Though I changed my degree from law to business. So are we now comparing educational backgrounds to determine if your opinions are more reliable than my facts?

mtpelion.4562:

phys.7689:

if you really want them to get the most money per purchase, without slaving away for days, buy gems, turn it to gold, then turn the gold to gems and buy the gem store item.

Except ArenaNet makes the exact same amount of money.

If I pay $10 for gems, convert those gems into gold, convert that gold into gems, and then buy a gem store item, ArenaNet made $10.

If I pay $10 for gems and then buy a gem store item, ArenaNet made $10.

It doesn’t matter if you buy gems yourself or use gold to buy gems, ArenaNet makes the same amount of money because SOMEONE had to buy the gems with real money before you could buy those gems with gold.

incorrect, they charge a tax.
so in fact lets say item costs 100 gems to come into creation in the game.
100 gems costs 11 g 82 s to buy.
but the market value of gold is
1 g costs 0.15 USD to buy through gems.
so if you multiply 11.82 × .15 you get
1.77
so that item you buy with gold→gems→ gives anet 1.77 $
the item you buy with cash gives anet 1.25$
so essentially you would spend 1.77 to buy gold then turn it to gems, then buy the item
versus spending 1.25 to buy the item.

phys.7689:

Rouven.7409:

phys.7689:

(…)
like anet who actually get more money for the same product when gold->gem seller buys a costume, than when a cash buyer buys a costume.

(…)

Hold it … you are saying I should stop buying gems with real hard digital cash and instead use the in-game currency because this is better for Anet?

as long as you dont mind working a lot harder for the same benefit(if you are going to earn the gold yourself.)
if you really want them to get the most money per purchase, without slaving away for days, buy gems, turn it to gold, then turn the gold to gems and buy the gem store item.

or you could just by tons of gems and do nothing with them.

but if you want them to get the most money per item produced, yeah buy gold, sell gold for gems.

That doesn’t even make sense. You do know the exchange is different. So you are really saying the best for Anet would be if I spend double the money on gems and then destroy half of them? (edit: I know it’s not 50%)

You really think if ALL of us would stop paying and instead playing more so we can exchange gold to gems they would miraculously make real world money?

No, it’s a feature. An OPTION! So people can say “well you don’t have to spend cash, you can play totally free and exchange your gold”.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

~~~ snip ~~~

I’m getting you didn’t bother to read the User Agreement. Here’s the part that supports my arguments:

4. ACCOUNT AND PAYMENTS TO NCSOFT
(d) Gems
(vii) You acknowledge that Gems are digital material with no cash value, that no interest is paid or earned with respect to Gems, that Gems are not personal property, that the quantity of Gems in Your Account may be increased or decreased by NCSOFT in its sole and absolute discretion for any reason or no reason whatsoever, that You have no right to a refund related to Gems, that there is no right to transfer or exchange Gems, and that NCSOFT may limit Your license to use Gems with respect to any Item, service, Content or time period related thereto. You further acknowledge that additional restrictions related to Gems, as determined in the sole and absolute discretion of NCSOFT, may be applicable if, and when, Gems are made available to You or thereafter. NCSOFT may restrict the award or use of Gems based on Your country of residence or other factors.

You agreed to these terms as well. So in essence, you’re arguing with yourself.

go to legal school and find out what a user agreement actually means.

I did! Though I changed my degree from law to business. So are we now comparing educational backgrounds to determine if your opinions are more reliable than my facts?

no im just hoping you realize that contracts dont change reality, and dont even guarantee you will win a case. but even more of that you would hopefully realize that a contract is totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Rouven.7409:

phys.7689:

Rouven.7409:

phys.7689:

(…)
like anet who actually get more money for the same product when gold->gem seller buys a costume, than when a cash buyer buys a costume.

(…)

Hold it … you are saying I should stop buying gems with real hard digital cash and instead use the in-game currency because this is better for Anet?

as long as you dont mind working a lot harder for the same benefit(if you are going to earn the gold yourself.)
if you really want them to get the most money per purchase, without slaving away for days, buy gems, turn it to gold, then turn the gold to gems and buy the gem store item.

or you could just by tons of gems and do nothing with them.

but if you want them to get the most money per item produced, yeah buy gold, sell gold for gems.

That doesn’t even make sense. You do know the exchange is different. So you are really saying the best for Anet would be if I spend double the money on gems and then destroy half of them? (edit: I know it’s not 50%)

You really think if ALL of us would stop paying and instead playing more so we can exchange gold to gems they would miraculously make real world money?

No, it’s a feature. An OPTION! So people can say “well you don’t have to spend cash, you can play totally free and exchange your gold”.

i said the best way for them to make money would be for you to do gems, but if all of you stop buying gems with real money it would solve itself, because then the exchange would be bankrupt, and no items would be generated except by cash.

the system is designed well, it corrects itself. Anet will be paid for every single gem store item that comes into the game one way or another, and they will be paid a premium for those that choose the gold route

phys.7689:

i said the best way for them to make money would be for you to do gems, but if all of you stop buying gems with real money it would solve itself, because then the exchange would be bankrupt, and no items would be generated except by cash.

the system is designed well, it corrects itself.

There is a “finite” amount of gems (edit: available for the exchange as per John a long time ago) and according to that the price will vary. If we stop buying gems with real money AND then exchanging them for gold the system would not go bankrupt, the price in gold for gems would rise astronomically so that no one is able to buy the last remaining gems.

I’m still waiting for my time to magically turn into money … I hope I don’t have to wait as long as Van Gogh did.