Guild Wars 2

Smooth Penguin.5294:

1) Yes we are all valuable customers. But only the paying players bring in revenue.

2) Yes the Gem Exchange is a brilliant tool that brings in revenue for Anet/NCSoft, from players like me who purchase Gems with real money.

3) Someone trading their time for in-game items does not help a company to profit. Someone trading their cash for in-game items does.

4) And yes, the guy who got the 100 Gems got it for free. Thus no revenue is generated from him.

sorry penguin, you arent any more valuable than the gold→ gem buyer, until the point in time in which people are no longer willing to pay real cash for his gold.

phys.7689:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

1) Yes we are all valuable customers. But only the paying players bring in revenue.

2) Yes the Gem Exchange is a brilliant tool that brings in revenue for Anet/NCSoft, from players like me who purchase Gems with real money.

3) Someone trading their time for in-game items does not help a company to profit. Someone trading their cash for in-game items does.

4) And yes, the guy who got the 100 Gems got it for free. Thus no revenue is generated from him.

sorry penguin, you arent any more valuable than the gold-> gem buyer, until the point in time in which people are no longer willing to pay real cash for his gold.

I’m more valuable as a paying customer, as I bring in repeated revenue to the company. That’s not to say that Anet doesn’t value all players. But if you look at one player spending $10,000 in microtransactions in a year, and one player who spend $0, in a business sense, the one paying $10,000 is more important.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

1) Yes we are all valuable customers. But only the paying players bring in revenue.

2) Yes the Gem Exchange is a brilliant tool that brings in revenue for Anet/NCSoft, from players like me who purchase Gems with real money.

3) Someone trading their time for in-game items does not help a company to profit. Someone trading their cash for in-game items does.

4) And yes, the guy who got the 100 Gems got it for free. Thus no revenue is generated from him.

sorry penguin, you arent any more valuable than the gold-> gem buyer, until the point in time in which people are no longer willing to pay real cash for his gold.

I’m more valuable as a paying customer, as I bring in repeated revenue to the company. That’s not to say that Anet doesn’t value all players. But if you look at one player spending $10,000 in microtransactions in a year, and one player who spend $0, in a business sense, the one paying $10,000 is more important.

If you gave them 10,000 and he got other people to give them 50,000 By selling them his gold. He is more valuable.

phys.7689:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

1) Yes we are all valuable customers. But only the paying players bring in revenue.

2) Yes the Gem Exchange is a brilliant tool that brings in revenue for Anet/NCSoft, from players like me who purchase Gems with real money.

3) Someone trading their time for in-game items does not help a company to profit. Someone trading their cash for in-game items does.

4) And yes, the guy who got the 100 Gems got it for free. Thus no revenue is generated from him.

sorry penguin, you arent any more valuable than the gold-> gem buyer, until the point in time in which people are no longer willing to pay real cash for his gold.

I’m more valuable as a paying customer, as I bring in repeated revenue to the company. That’s not to say that Anet doesn’t value all players. But if you look at one player spending $10,000 in microtransactions in a year, and one player who spend $0, in a business sense, the one paying $10,000 is more important.

If you gave them 10,000 and he got other people to give them 50,000 By selling them his gold. He is more valuable.

Wrong again. The non-paying customer who exchanged their Gold → Gems don’t bring in revenue. Because they spent $0 on microtransactions. This is simple business. Now when you’re trying to say that those same non-playing customers are responsible for getting other players to buy Gems with real money, that’s really stretching it mate. There are some points to consider here:

1) While there are players who buy Gems to convert to Gold, the Gold → Gem players far outnumber them.

2) Gold is not the only driving factor in a paying player’s decision to purchase Gems.

3) Gold in the Gem Exchange pot already existed before the game started. The additional Gold being deposited via the Gold → Gem players only adds to the existing balance of the pot. I can say with near 100% certainty that the Gold initially deposited into the pot is still there. I calculate this by way of the cost ratios in the Gem Exchange. The price of Gold → Gem exchanges is at an all-time high, because there’s a lot more Gold than there are Gems.

4) I need to put this out there. I agree with you that all players are valuable to Anet. But you need to understand that paying customers are what drive coninued the success of GW2. If we weren’t here, NCSoft would shut us down like Heroes.

No individual player is ‘bringing in’ people to buy gems with money when that player exchanges his gold for gems because it’s not a factor in people’s decision to buy gems with money. That’s just another indication people don’t understand how the gem exchange works.

People buy gems with money regardless of how much gold people are exchanging for gems because the price to buy gems with money is FIXED.

Again, more nonsense … Anet sells gems. Players that buy gems with money pay the bills, not the people exchanging gold for gems. Arguing otherwise is ignorant.

For most of GW1’s life, the only way to get the best looking Skins was to farm the same dungeons or unlock them in PvP. Then sometime after EotN was released, all of the Outfits that didn’t ship with the Chapters/Expansion and were instead themed “Festival outfits”, (but COULD be worn in combat too), started coming only from the Cash Shop.

That was the turning point I think… and anyone who spent a few minutes in L.A. or Spamadan noticed pretty quickly just how many “social butterflies” would keep on buying those Aesthetics.

I’m not sure I like EITHER SYSTEM. Granted I did get my favorite looking bow of all time (Silverwing/Kinslayer) from one of those dungeons. But I do stand with the OP in questioning why there doesn’t seem to be any variety at all here in the source of new Aesthetics? Furthermore, why is there no Player-Studio or “Design an Armor-Set” contest? …there should be one of those every year. Anet was famous for its “Design a X” contests.

ilr.9675:

For most of GW1’s life, the only way to get the best looking Skins was to farm the same dungeons or unlock them in PvP. Then sometime after EotN was released, all of the Outfits that didn’t ship with the Chapters/Expansion and were instead themed “Festival outfits”, (but COULD be worn in combat too), started coming only from the Cash Shop.

That was the turning point I think… and anyone who spent a few minutes in L.A. or Spamadan noticed pretty quickly just how many “social butterflies” would keep on buying those Aesthetics.

I’m not sure I like EITHER SYSTEM. Granted I did get my favorite looking bow of all time (Silverwing/Kinslayer) from one of those dungeons. But I do stand with the OP in questioning why there doesn’t seem to be any variety at all here in the source of new Aesthetics? Furthermore, why is there no Player-Studio or “Design an Armor-Set” contest? …there should be one of those every year. Anet was famous for its “Design a X” contests.

The reason behind the skin issue is a business one. By offering unique skins that can only be purchased with Gems, you give incentive to players to spend real money. It makes no sense, business-wise, to “not” offer exclusive content in their microtransaction store. If you could get all the best stuff from in-game content, then there’s no reason to spend additional money in the Gem Store.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

ilr.9675:

For most of GW1’s life, the only way to get the best looking Skins was to farm the same dungeons or unlock them in PvP. Then sometime after EotN was released, all of the Outfits that didn’t ship with the Chapters/Expansion and were instead themed “Festival outfits”, (but COULD be worn in combat too), started coming only from the Cash Shop.

That was the turning point I think… and anyone who spent a few minutes in L.A. or Spamadan noticed pretty quickly just how many “social butterflies” would keep on buying those Aesthetics.

I’m not sure I like EITHER SYSTEM. Granted I did get my favorite looking bow of all time (Silverwing/Kinslayer) from one of those dungeons. But I do stand with the OP in questioning why there doesn’t seem to be any variety at all here in the source of new Aesthetics? Furthermore, why is there no Player-Studio or “Design an Armor-Set” contest? …there should be one of those every year. Anet was famous for its “Design a X” contests.

The reason behind the skin issue is a business one. By offering unique skins that can only be purchased with Gems, you give incentive to players to spend real money. It makes no sense, business-wise, to “not” offer exclusive content in their microtransaction store. If you could get all the best stuff from in-game content, then there’s no reason to spend additional money in the Gem Store.

That doesn’t address the point one bit. You only constructed a Strawman instead. No where did I say there shouldn’t be any Shop-Exclusives. What I pointed out is that after a certain point even in the first game, they became the ONLY new aesthetics being added. Therefore every single new set (or 95% of them currently in Gw2’s case) are only available in the Shop. If you wish to discuss Gold-2-Gem conversion however, please choose another thread. Not going to be having that discussion with you here.

ilr.9675:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

ilr.9675:

For most of GW1’s life, the only way to get the best looking Skins was to farm the same dungeons or unlock them in PvP. Then sometime after EotN was released, all of the Outfits that didn’t ship with the Chapters/Expansion and were instead themed “Festival outfits”, (but COULD be worn in combat too), started coming only from the Cash Shop.

That was the turning point I think… and anyone who spent a few minutes in L.A. or Spamadan noticed pretty quickly just how many “social butterflies” would keep on buying those Aesthetics.

I’m not sure I like EITHER SYSTEM. Granted I did get my favorite looking bow of all time (Silverwing/Kinslayer) from one of those dungeons. But I do stand with the OP in questioning why there doesn’t seem to be any variety at all here in the source of new Aesthetics? Furthermore, why is there no Player-Studio or “Design an Armor-Set” contest? …there should be one of those every year. Anet was famous for its “Design a X” contests.

The reason behind the skin issue is a business one. By offering unique skins that can only be purchased with Gems, you give incentive to players to spend real money. It makes no sense, business-wise, to “not” offer exclusive content in their microtransaction store. If you could get all the best stuff from in-game content, then there’s no reason to spend additional money in the Gem Store.

That doesn’t address the point one bit. You only constructed a Strawman instead. No where did I say there shouldn’t be any Shop-Exclusives. What I pointed out is that after a certain point even in the first game, they became the ONLY new aesthetics being added. Therefore every single new set (or 95% of them currently in Gw2’s case) are only available in the Shop. If you wish to discuss Gold-2-Gem conversion however, please choose another thread. Not going to be having that discussion with you here.

Not sure where you get a Strawman argument from, when I’m discussing valid sales tactics. The mistake you’re making is that it’s your personal feeling towards this game is purely aesthetic after you ate up all the content. There’s a lot of replay value in the existing content, and with new stuff in LS releases. That fact that you want new skins is the reason why they’re put into the Gem Store. Were I in charge of the microtransactions in GW2, I would definitely take advantage of this behavior.

Psychological Marketing is key to understanding customers, trends, wants and needs. Tormented skins came out, a lot of players wanted it, and a lot probably bought Gems for BL Keys. Flame-kissed armor came out, and there was a uproar because it resembled too closely the Human T3 female armor. As you can see, aesthetics is very important for a lot of players. Thus the reason why Anet would focus on bringing out the next big thing, in terms of weapon or armor skins. If new skins were all in game as rewards from content, players would have no reason (or a lot less reason) to spend additional money.

You brought up a business related question, I gave you a business answer.

Side note – These are not evil tactics. A business exists to make money. A manager of that business is required to find the best ways to bring in sales on a consistent basis.

They got to keep people engaged in the game, people who quit or go on haitus don’t come back for new skins in shop (mostly).
Its a tricky balance.
Problem is cosmetics were supposed to be the carrot.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

“The mistake you’re making is that it’s your personal feeling towards this game is purely aesthetic after you ate up all the content.”
…..
“As you can see, aesthetics is very important for a lot of players.”

You do realize you’re arguing yourself, right?

It’s not just important to a lot of players. It is the only thing to strive for at “end game” in GW2. The Living Stories are hardly what I would (and a great deal of other players) would consider “content”. Basically, at this point, GW2 has become a vicious recycling motion of trying to make money off the gemstore with little in the way of “content” or any addition thereof.

You can argue this all you want but when the content being released is completed within a few hours, tops, one has to take a step back and ask themselves what exactly are they logging in for. You’re playing a game to spend money on “skins”. That’s all. There are no new dungeons, no new zones to do things of any importance to your character or over all lore and as we have admitted to in the other thread, there is no gear treadmill. So what are you playing GW2 for? To pay to look pretty?

Smooth Penguin.5294:

You brought up a business related question, I gave you a business answer.

No you’re just arguing because you’re bored and in doing so are looking for arguments with people who weren’t even talking to you originally. You put words in my mouth and wouldn’t apologize for doing so because you are so much more interested in “tactics” and little else. Well sample some of your own medicine Sir, minus the interested part. The history and patterns Anet have followed on this issue are no longer up for debate.
H.A.N.D.

siralius.9517:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

“The mistake you’re making is that it’s your personal feeling towards this game is purely aesthetic after you ate up all the content.”
…..
“As you can see, aesthetics is very important for a lot of players.”

You do realize you’re arguing yourself, right?

It’s not just important to a lot of players. It is the only thing to strive for at “end game” in GW2. The Living Stories are hardly what I would (and a great deal of other players) would consider “content”. Basically, at this point, GW2 has become a vicious recycling motion of trying to make money off the gemstore with little in the way of “content” or any addition thereof.

You can argue this all you want but when the content being released is completed within a few hours, tops, one has to take a step back and ask themselves what exactly are they logging in for. You’re playing a game to spend money on “skins”. That’s all. There are no new dungeons, no new zones to do things of any importance to your character or over all lore and as we have admitted to in the other thread, there is no gear treadmill. So what are you playing GW2 for? To pay to look pretty?

Not exactly. There are a LOT of players who view aesthetics to be important. But just because a lot of people may feel this way, doesn’t mean it’s the only thing in the game to do. They can do Dungeons, Fractals, SPvP, WvW, and even new LS content.

Here’s where you need to understand the businessman’s perspective. Because Anet knows a lot of players like to look good, they put really nice looking skins in the Gem Store. I rarely buy armor sets, but when the Assassin one came out, I knew that I just had to have it. Anet/NCSoft profits off of my personal desire to look like an awesome ninja. If they sold a consumable that allowed me to gender-swap the clothes my male norn wears, I’d buy that too. If they sold me exclusive access to Cantha, I would drop hundreds of dollars for that.

Anyways, there are players who feel like this game is a “play to look pretty”. I’m one of them, and my spending behaviors dictate that I’ll drop real money for fancy virtual skins.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

siralius.9517:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

“The mistake you’re making is that it’s your personal feeling towards this game is purely aesthetic after you ate up all the content.”
…..
“As you can see, aesthetics is very important for a lot of players.”

You do realize you’re arguing yourself, right?

It’s not just important to a lot of players. It is the only thing to strive for at “end game” in GW2. The Living Stories are hardly what I would (and a great deal of other players) would consider “content”. Basically, at this point, GW2 has become a vicious recycling motion of trying to make money off the gemstore with little in the way of “content” or any addition thereof.

You can argue this all you want but when the content being released is completed within a few hours, tops, one has to take a step back and ask themselves what exactly are they logging in for. You’re playing a game to spend money on “skins”. That’s all. There are no new dungeons, no new zones to do things of any importance to your character or over all lore and as we have admitted to in the other thread, there is no gear treadmill. So what are you playing GW2 for? To pay to look pretty?

Not exactly. There are a LOT of players who view aesthetics to be important. But just because a lot of people may feel this way, doesn’t mean it’s the only thing in the game to do. They can do Dungeons, Fractals, SPvP, WvW, and even new LS content.

Here’s where you need to understand the businessman’s perspective. Because Anet knows a lot of players like to look good, they put really nice looking skins in the Gem Store. I rarely buy armor sets, but when the Assassin one came out, I knew that I just had to have it. Anet/NCSoft profits off of my personal desire to look like an awesome ninja. If they sold a consumable that allowed me to gender-swap the clothes my male norn wears, I’d buy that too. If they sold me exclusive access to Cantha, I would drop hundreds of dollars for that.

Anyways, there are players who feel like this game is a “play to look pretty”. I’m one of them, and my spending behaviors dictate that I’ll drop real money for fancy virtual skins.

When are we going to start seeing the money made from selling stuff in the gemstore put back into the game? When sub based games make their money, they eventually put that money back into the game by creating meaningful content. When is Anet going to start doing this with their gemstore profits? You seem to have all the answers penguin. Answer that question.

You keep talking about business this and business that. Look at the forums, my friend. People are getting sick of this business of gemstore profits and nothing going back into the game. Which business tactic is that modeled after?

siralius.9517:

When are we going to start seeing the money made from selling stuff in the gemstore put back into the game? When sub based games make their money, they eventually put that money back into the game by creating meaningful content. When is Anet going to start doing this with their gemstore profits? You seem to have all the answers penguin. Answer that question.

You keep talking about business this and business that. Look at the forums, my friend. People are getting sick of this business of gemstore profits and nothing going back into the game. Which business tactic is that modeled after?

That’s an obtuse point of view … you see it all the time. GW2 content doesn’t create itself you know. The notion that Anet isn’t using the money from selling gems to fund GW2’s further development is preposterous. I can tell you’re going to fit right in with the people complaining about flippers and not being handed a legendary within the first day of playing.

Obtena.7952:

siralius.9517:

When are we going to start seeing the money made from selling stuff in the gemstore put back into the game? When sub based games make their money, they eventually put that money back into the game by creating meaningful content. When is Anet going to start doing this with their gemstore profits? You seem to have all the answers penguin. Answer that question.

You keep talking about business this and business that. Look at the forums, my friend. People are getting sick of this business of gemstore profits and nothing going back into the game. Which business tactic is that modeled after?

That’s an obtuse point of view … you see it all the time. GW2 content doesn’t create itself you know.

It’s obtuse to you. That is your opinion. However, I find your opinion and viewpoint, obtuse. Preposterous? Okay, Obtena, it is year 2, where is this “further development” you speak of?

I can assure you … your implication that Anet isn’t funding GW2 development with gemstore sales is obtuse to more than just myself. If you aren’t aware of all the content that has been released on a very consistent and frequent basis over the last 2 years, then I think obtuse really was the correct description. How can you even be qualified to ask such a question when the continued development of the game is actually one of it’s strong selling points? I have to ask myself if you even play this game for claiming a lack of development in it. I can imagine even the most unreasonable person would acknowledge the amount and frequency of content that’s added to this game, even if they didn’t like it.

siralius.9517:

When are we going to start seeing the money made from selling stuff in the gemstore put back into the game? When sub based games make their money, they eventually put that money back into the game by creating meaningful content. When is Anet going to start doing this with their gemstore profits? You seem to have all the answers penguin. Answer that question.

You keep talking about business this and business that. Look at the forums, my friend. People are getting sick of this business of gemstore profits and nothing going back into the game. Which business tactic is that modeled after?

This is the nature of business. Anet is owned by NCSoft. Every single cent of sales goes to the mother company, and they in turn give back the subsidiary funding to continue creating content.

You want to know where they put all the stuff back into the game? Look at the Living Story. Look at World Boss revamps. Look at the new voice actors/actresses for the new characters. Look at the new cinematic. Look at the bug fixes. Look at the Customer Support staff who undo hacker damages. Look at John Smith for keeping our economy is tip top shape.

Obtena.7952:

I can assure you … your implication that Anet isn’t funding GW2 development with gemstore sales is obtuse to more than just myself. If you aren’t aware of all the content that has been released on a very consistent and frequent basis over the last 2 years, then I think obtuse really was the correct description. How can you even be qualified to ask such a question when the continued development of the game is actually one of it’s strong selling points? I have to ask myself if you even play this game for claiming a lack of development in it. I can imagine even the most unreasonable person would acknowledge the amount and frequency of content that’s added to this game, even if they didn’t like it.

I was under the impression that funds come from and go to NCsoft.

Obtena.7952:

I can assure you … your implication that Anet isn’t funding GW2 development with gemstore sales is obtuse to more than just myself. If you aren’t aware of all the content that has been released on a very consistent and frequent basis over the last 2 years, then I think obtuse really was the correct description. How can you even be qualified to ask such a question when the continued development of the game is actually one of it’s strong selling points? I have to ask myself if you even play this game for claiming a lack of development in it. I can imagine even the most unreasonable person would acknowledge the amount and frequency of content that’s added to this game, even if they didn’t like it.

Surely you jest, Obtena. How long have you been perusing this forum? Did you even read the title of the thread you’re posting in? Content? The content that revolves around getting ppl into the gemstore? I guess to make profit to further develop more content that revolves around getting ppl into the gemstore? Is that the “content” you’re speaking of? Living Story, they call it. C’mon, Obtena lol. I mean, no offense to Anet. If it’s working for them then that’s great. It’s just not working for me and judging by this thread and others like it, it’s not working for other ppl either.

Anyway, Obtena. I really don’t care. I’ve been told the best way to vote is with your feet and that’s what I’ve done. Enjoy the rest of your night.

Essence Snow.3194:

Obtena.7952:

I can assure you … your implication that Anet isn’t funding GW2 development with gemstore sales is obtuse to more than just myself. If you aren’t aware of all the content that has been released on a very consistent and frequent basis over the last 2 years, then I think obtuse really was the correct description. How can you even be qualified to ask such a question when the continued development of the game is actually one of it’s strong selling points? I have to ask myself if you even play this game for claiming a lack of development in it. I can imagine even the most unreasonable person would acknowledge the amount and frequency of content that’s added to this game, even if they didn’t like it.

I was under the impression that funds come from and go to NCsoft.

I can’t claim to know the exact details of whatever business arrangement NCsoft and Anet have but I doubt Anet devs work for free and I know the content in GW2 doesn’t create itself.

siralius.9517:

C’mon, Obtena lol. I mean, no offense to Anet. If it’s working for them then that’s great. It’s just not working for me and judging by this thread and others like it, it’s not working for other ppl either.

RIGHT … it’s not working for you so you make ridiculous claims that there is no meaningful development of the game over the last 2 years. You think this is the kind of thing that will make people to take you seriously? I get it, your mad so you’re saying anything to lash out, even if it’s nonsense. For someone that has ‘walked away and doesn’t care’, you certainly haven’t gotten very far.

Obtena.7952:

Essence Snow.3194:

Obtena.7952:

I can assure you … your implication that Anet isn’t funding GW2 development with gemstore sales is obtuse to more than just myself. If you aren’t aware of all the content that has been released on a very consistent and frequent basis over the last 2 years, then I think obtuse really was the correct description. How can you even be qualified to ask such a question when the continued development of the game is actually one of it’s strong selling points? I have to ask myself if you even play this game for claiming a lack of development in it. I can imagine even the most unreasonable person would acknowledge the amount and frequency of content that’s added to this game, even if they didn’t like it.

I was under the impression that funds come from and go to NCsoft.

I can’t claim to know the exact details of whatever business arrangement NCsoft and Anet have but I doubt Anet devs work for free and I know the content in GW2 doesn’t create itself.

There’s nothing to argue about that comment. It really seems as if your are arguing for the sake of arguing. Ofc they are not working for free. No one said that, but you. Why even add it in? Have you had a nap today?

siralius.9517:

It just appeared to me that you are taking me pointing out GW2’s shorcomings personally.

You’re interpretation is way off then. I’m simply taking you to task because you clearly have zero understanding of what you speak of, yet you speak with conviction. You don’t think Anet has produced any meaningful content in the last two years with money earned by the sale of gems? I can say definitely that’s just wrong because box sales wouldn’t have been enough funding for that period of time + the pre-release development time.

Obtena.7952:

I can assure you … your implication that Anet isn’t funding GW2 development with gemstore sales is obtuse to more than just myself. If you aren’t aware of all the content that has been released on a very consistent and frequent basis over the last 2 years, then I think obtuse really was the correct description. How can you even be qualified to ask such a question when the continued development of the game is actually one of it’s strong selling points?

Their Sales numbers trended downward in Nc’s own quarterly reports and keep going that direction. That’s how we know they’re not meeting those “selling points”. The most often cited reason from player feedback is lack of meaningful content. You failed to define which content you were talking about. Siralius’ defined it much more thoroughly without using such intentional vagueness. Qualifications indeed….

I’m not vague and I don’t need to define the content I’m talking about because all content introduced into the game is funded in part by sales of gems and some other fraction of that from box sales. You name it, it was funded by those two things. Their might be other sources of funding I’m not aware of but those two would likely be most significant.

The argument Siralus made isn’t about customer satisfaction, it’s about the fact that he claims to see NO meaningful content developed funded by gem sales. That’s simply wrong. Even the content he refers to (the gemstore stuff) is meaningful is people are buying it … and I see alot of stupid flutes, PVP finishers, dyes that set you on fire, etc… Even if he thinks ALL that content is crap, it has meaning if people are buying it. Claiming it’s all meaningless content because of a personal opinion is an obtuse point of view.

If his argument IS about customer satisfaction, it’s one of the most poorly made arguments I have ever seen, but it wouldn’t be a surprise at this point. I’ve seen alot of pretty unbelievable statements on these forums recently. His would simply be par for the course.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

siralius.9517:

When are we going to start seeing the money made from selling stuff in the gemstore put back into the game? When sub based games make their money, they eventually put that money back into the game by creating meaningful content. When is Anet going to start doing this with their gemstore profits? You seem to have all the answers penguin. Answer that question.

You keep talking about business this and business that. Look at the forums, my friend. People are getting sick of this business of gemstore profits and nothing going back into the game. Which business tactic is that modeled after?

This is the nature of business. Anet is owned by NCSoft. Every single cent of sales goes to the mother company, and they in turn give back the subsidiary funding to continue creating content.

You want to know where they put all the stuff back into the game? Look at the Living Story. Look at World Boss revamps. Look at the new voice actors/actresses for the new characters. Look at the new cinematic. Look at the bug fixes. Look at the Customer Support staff who undo hacker damages. Look at John Smith for keeping our economy is tip top shape.

Everything you mentioned are bare minimums…mere maintenance…fluff. Including the “economy”. My post said “meaningful content”. And what is your infatuation with this John Smith character. Geez, the way you go on about that guy…CONSTANTLY; the idolatry. Well, to be completely honest, it’s strange.

siralius.9517:

Everything you mentioned are bare minimums…mere maintenance…fluff. Including the “economy”. My post said “meaningful content”. And what is your infatuation with this John Smith character. Geez, the way you go on about that guy…CONSTANTLY; the idolatry. Well, to be completely honest, it’s strange.

Living world is just ‘maintenance and fluff’? … WOW. … someone should start making a wall of shame, we got some gems in this thread. Apparently you didn’t leave the game soon enough …

Just because you don’t feel the content is meaningful doesn’t make that a universal truth. I guess your going to tell us that the content that people participate, complete and acquire doesn’t make it ‘meaningful’ to those people, simply because you label it meaningless?

Obtena.7952:

siralius.9517:

Everything you mentioned are bare minimums…mere maintenance…fluff. Including the “economy”. My post said “meaningful content”. And what is your infatuation with this John Smith character. Geez, the way you go on about that guy…CONSTANTLY; the idolatry. Well, to be completely honest, it’s strange.

Living world is just ‘maintenance and fluff’? … someone should start making a wall of shame, we got some gems in this thread.

Just because you don’t feel the content is meaningful doesn’t make that a universal truth. I guess your going to tell me that the number of people participating, completing and acquiring said content has nothing to do with making it ‘meaningful’?

Obtena. I didn’t create this thread… Either way, we should stop back and forthing, lest Anet should shut it down for it being “stagnate”; ironically enough.

The thread is a place of discussion … whoever creates it is irrelevant. We add to the value of the thread by ‘clarifying’ some inaccuracies that people tend to create when making their sensational, emotional arguments. That’s all that’s going on here. Frankly, if people didn’t post irrationally, there would be no reason to see threads closed.

As a player since launch, the no gear grind marketing attracted a lot of casual players like me. If you play a lot, the game is boring and the content is not “meaningful” (which is a very loaded phrase in rpgs), if you don’t then it is a decent amount of content and paced correctly.

I now play an average 4 hours a week split between WvW, various pve, and some spvp. The next episode of the LS story comes out next week and i have just completed the personal instances and have yet had the opportunity to fully explore dry top (my plan this weekend). If you put in 6 hours in a single evening, i can see where you run out of things to do and see the game as stagnant.

I see myself getting plenty of content for the amount of money i put in. If paying $10 for a skin once a month so that i can look awesome while having fun doing the content then that is a pretty reasonable price for an optional extra.

Obtena.7952:

I’m not vague and I don’t need to define the content I’m talking about
<snip>
The argument Siralus made isn’t about customer satisfaction

just contradicted your own flimsy apologetics again…. “Customer” satisfaction is trending down and has been ever since conerns were raised that too much of the content is focused on GemShop marketing. You don’t get to argue against that and then in the same breath say it’s all about economics. Sorry. NcSoft itself disagrees with you

Maybe you need to be clearer as well on who you consider to be customers? …those of us who only bought the Box are no longer Customers to you??

And where ilr are you getting your customer satisfaction numbers? Forums are such a lousy sample of either the player base in general or an indication of satisfaction specifically since there is always a greater likelihood that upset players will post while happy players don’t.

Also doesn’t help the balance when calling someone a “troll” is an infraction while calling someone a “white knight” isn’t. Both are pejorative terms at opposite ends of the spectrum in my book. Both should be added to the “kitten” list or on another forum where I post “unicorn”.

ilr.9675:

Maybe you need to be clearer as well on who you consider to be customers?

Why, so you can just argue some more?

I don’t know what your post has to do with the fact that Anet funds development with gemstore sales. They do. The content is also meaningful to people that play the game because they want it, they get it and they use it … and they also complain about how some of it is obtained. People disliking gemstore sales, TP, gem:gold ratios, etc … is not a general indicator of overall customer satisfaction.

Yeah probably best you edit that bit out……grr wish I was sec quicker with that quote click.

Nerelith.7360:

Gems are transferred from one Player to another with Anet being the middle man.

So you ACTUALLY believe there is a finite number of Gems somewhere and Anet just uses the same ones over and over again…..like diamonds or ingots of gold on a commodities exchange? Wow…..

I can see this conversation is pointless….carry on suckers!

I think that’s a side effect of telling people that the exchange contains a finite amount of gems and they aren’t created when you buy them with gold.

Buying with cash creates them.
Using them in the Gem Shop destroys them.
The game was launched with a finite amount in the Exchange (more likely a fixed amount per account added to the exchange when the account is opened).

Behellagh.1468:

I think that’s a side effect of telling people that the exchange contains a finite amount of gems and they aren’t created when you buy them with gold.

Buying with cash creates them.
Using them in the Gem Shop destroys them.
The game was launched with a finite amount in the Exchange (more likely a fixed amount per account added to the exchange when the account is opened).

pretty sure he was misinterpreting what the poster was saying, the poster was refering specifically to the gems in the exchange, and that anet was the middleman for two people exchanging gold and gems, which is basically accurate, and essentially the description and the way any currency exchange system works.

phys.7689:

Behellagh.1468:

I think that’s a side effect of telling people that the exchange contains a finite amount of gems and they aren’t created when you buy them with gold.

Buying with cash creates them.
Using them in the Gem Shop destroys them.
The game was launched with a finite amount in the Exchange (more likely a fixed amount per account added to the exchange when the account is opened).

pretty sure he was misinterpreting what the poster was saying, the poster was refering specifically to the gems in the exchange, and that anet was the middleman for two people exchanging gold and gems, which is basically accurate, and essentially the description and the way any currency exchange system works.

It’s Not that hard to understand. Player A buys Gems with Cash. Player B buys Gems with Gold. Player A uses their Gems to buy gold. Player B uses their Gems to buy a Skin.

What has transpired is…Gold went from Player B to Player A. Gems went from Player A to player B. And Player B used up the gems when they bought the skin.

All Anet did was serve as middle in the transaction, and take off a Bit of profit off each exchange.

It is simple to understand for us, because we accept that the gold that player B uses to buy gems has value.

Behellagh.1468:

I think that’s a side effect of telling people that the exchange contains a finite amount of gems and they aren’t created when you buy them with gold.

Buying with cash creates them.
Using them in the Gem Shop destroys them.
The game was launched with a finite amount in the Exchange (more likely a fixed amount per account added to the exchange when the account is opened).

When player A buys Gems with Cash, he is exchanging Cash which has monetary value, in exchange for Gems which also have monetary value. He is helping Anet at this point realize the Monetary value inherent in gems, because the gems can be exchanged for Virtual Goods and services which have monetary value.

When Player B, buys gems with Gold, he is exchanging Gold which has monetary value, for gems that also have monetary value.

When Player A then uses the gems it bought with cash, to buy Gold, it is helping Anet realize the monetary value inherent in the gold that player B exchanged for the gems he purchased.

Player B has to pay more gold to get 100 Gems, than Player A gets when they buy gold with 100 Gems. The difference between the amount of gold Player B pays, and player A receives, is a source of profit for Anet.

When Player A uses the gems it bought from Anet for cash, and uses those gems to buy gold. This is when Anet realizes the monetary value in the gold Player B sold it. It realizes that value from selling it to player A.

Like if a Merchant buys a Box of Drake’s cakes from the Drake’s Pastry company. And sells it to person A. The fact that the merchant did not get cash from The Drake’s company doesn’t mean it did not receive something that had monetary value. The cakes it paid Drake’s for have monetary value. But THAT value was not realized til it sold those Cakes to Person A.

Player A, buying gold from Anet, sold TO Anet by player B…. helps Anet realize the monetary value inherent in the gold player B sold to Anet for gems.

When player B uses the gems, it uses gems that have monetary value, to purchase Virtual goods and services that have monetary value, that they had acquired as they farmed gold, that has monetary value, when they exchanged that gold for gems.

The short of it.

There are two kinds of Players that play Gw2.

1 Paying customers
2 Non-paying customers.

Now i find it of interest that many players make this dichotomy, since it is the dichotomy of a free2play game. But that is another argument.

I have changed my mind In reading these posts.

I now believe that non-paying customers are players that never bought the game.

Paying customers comprises of players that bought the game.

Then we have Players that bought the game, and make gem store purchases with cash, as another type of paying customer.

We also have players that bought the game, and make gem store purchases with Gold, as another type of paying customer.

The ONLY non-paying customers are players that somehow have found a way to play the game, without buying the game.

Everyone else is a paying customer. Since they paid Anet.

Nerelith.7360:

It’s Not that hard to understand. Player A buys Gems with Cash. Player B buys Gems with Gold. Player A uses their Gems to buy gold. Player B uses their Gems to buy a Skin.

What has transpired is…Gold went from Player B to Player A. Gems went from Player A to player B. And Player B used up the gems when they bought the skin.

All Anet did was serve as middle in the transaction, and take off a Bit of profit off each exchange.

It is simple to understand for us, because we accept that the gold that player B uses to buy gems has value.

Again, you don’t fully understand the system. Gems don’t go to player B from player A. Gems and Gold go into a pot with existing Gems and Gold. Anet doesn’t profit off of this exchange. The difference between the Gold -> Gems and Gems -> Gold is a SINK. This is to deter people like me from using the exchange like a real world Currency Market. Trust me, I’ve tried this and failed.

What really transpired is that Gold went into a pot full of other existing Gold, and the pot then returned Gems. Vice versa, Gems went into a pot full of other existing Gems, and the pot returned Gold. The amount of Gems and Gold in the pot alters the exchange rate, which is supposed to be a self balancing mechanism. If too many players are exchanging Gold for Gems, the pot makes it more expensive to do so, all while giving players more incentive for exchange Gems for Gold.

Nerelith.7360:

We also have players that bought the game, and make gem store purchases with Gold, as another type of paying customer.

This needs to be addressed too. Anet/NCSoft does NOT profit off of a player who never buys Gems with real money. They are NOT paying customers, simply because no money was exchanged. Pretty simple business understandings here. A company cannot survive by giving away free stuff. They rely on players like me who spends real money in addition to the box price of the game.

Please realize that you’re wrong in your understanding of how a business works, and how the Gem Exchange works. We’re doing our best to explain it to you, as we’ve been here a long time and know what we’re talking about. Some of us even have real world experience with business (i.e. my business degree, my management expertise, etc).

I didn’t know that Anet employees could pay bills or buy groceries with in game gold. Who knew.

monetary value – the property of having material worth (often indicated by the amount of money something would bring if sold)monetary value – the property of having material worth (often indicated by the amount of money something would bring if sold); “the fluctuating monetary value of gold and silver”; “he puts a high price on his services”; “he couldn’t calculate the cost of the collection”

bloodletting wolf.2837:

I didn’t know that Anet employees could pay bills or buy groceries with in game gold. Who knew.

Well, since in game gold is sold by Anet whether directly for cash, or indirectly for gems, that are sold for cash. When a Player buys Gold with gems, that he bought with cash, he helps Anert realize a profit.

Since Anet realizes a profit from the trade of in game gold, and uses this profit to pay Anet employees salaries… then yes.

You finally understand it. The in game gold is used to generate profit which pays salaries, which can be used to buy groceries, and pay bills.

The gems aren’t created out of thin air. I buy gems – I trade them for gold out of a pool. When you trade gold for gems it comes out of a pool. That is the reason that the price of gems-gold has gone up since launch – more people are putting gold into the exchange than buying gems with cash. Don’t fool yourself into thinking you are a paying customer if you don’t buy gems.

bloodletting wolf.2837:

The gems aren’t created out of thin air. I buy gems – I trade them for gold out of a pool. When you trade gold for gems it comes out of a pool. That is the reason that the price of gems-gold has gone up since launch – more people are putting gold into the exchange than buying gems with cash. Don’t fool yourself into thinking you are a paying customer if you don’t buy gems.

All players that paid for the game are paying customers by definition.

Whether subsequent to their purchase they paid for gems with cash, or gold, they are paying customers unless they recieved the game as a gift, and then the person that bought the game for them, was a paying customer.

Then you can say " I am a continuing financial supporter, because I bought gems with cash." That does not mean that players that bought the game and have not bought any gems since, cease to be paying customers of Anet. They BOUGHT the game… and paid Anet for the game, they got the game in exchange. THIS alone makes EVERYONE a paying customer.

The Irony here is, …I paid cash for gems also for some time. But I never thought it a reason to look down with disdain on people that bought gems with gold.

See As I keep explaining. EVERYONE that BOUGHT the game, is a paying customer because they bought the game. If someone is a non-paying customer it is people that somehow have found a way to play the game without paying for the game at all.

Aside from this, there are people that continue to support the game with their gem purchases.

Some pay for the gems with cash. Others pay for the gems with gold. BOTH groups continue to support the game.

I have 1 question. Why do some people that buy gems with cash hold the players that buy gems with gold with such disdain? I almost sense that some players are thinking “leeches” as they say " non-paying" customer.

Or they hold themselves to some loftier plain in their own minds… as if they were VIP’s because they buy gems with cash?

Fact, you are important to Anet, so is the player that buys gems with gold.

See when I say this I can sense the ire of some Gem buyers… as i dare to compare you with players that also bought gems that support this game. Gems purchased with gold, but purchased nonetheless. So:

Why the disdain for gem buyers that buy gems with gold?

Vote with your wallet.

bloodletting wolf.2837:

The gems aren’t created out of thin air. I buy gems – I trade them for gold out of a pool. When you trade gold for gems it comes out of a pool. That is the reason that the price of gems-gold has gone up since launch – more people are putting gold into the exchange than buying gems with cash. Don’t fool yourself into thinking you are a paying customer if you don’t buy gems.

if they have a strong well managed exchange system, then they will continue to make money no matter what the exchange rate is. As long as they have consistent flow in and out, the comparative gold/gems ratio in the pool is irrelevant. keep in mind they hold about 34% in every exchange. With an good algorithm, and predictable exchanges per day, (not to mention anet decides the rate)anet will never be the one paying for price fluctuations, the gold/gem users will be.

Even if somehow, anet messes up and loses 34%(keep in mind even airport exchanges are generally around 25%) the value some how, they would just be breaking even on the exchange.
which still is profitable, because they were able to monetize the gold selling customer.

bloodletting wolf.2837:

I didn’t know that Anet employees could pay bills or buy groceries with in game gold. Who knew.

Unfortunately, there are some who don’t understand how the in-game system works. Because they perceive Gold to have “value”, they incorrectly assume that you can now use this “value” to pay employee salaries, overhead, dividends, etc. At this point, here’s how they see the system:

A = Gold (a virtual currency)
B = Real money (self explanatory)

A = B

Of course this thinking is completely inaccurate.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

bloodletting wolf.2837:

I didn’t know that Anet employees could pay bills or buy groceries with in game gold. Who knew.

Unfortunately, there are some who don’t understand how the in-game system works. Because they perceive Gold to have “value”, they incorrectly assume that you can now use this “value” to pay employee salaries, overhead, dividends, etc. At this point, here’s how they see the system:

A = Gold (a virtual currency)
B = Real money (self explanatory)

A = B

Of course this thinking is completely inaccurate.

Just because you misunderstand the concept of economic value, and continue repeating it, doesn’t make it so.

in game gold has economic value. Anet sells it, Anet makes a profit from it’s sale. Anet makes Money from selling gold exactly as Gold sellers make money selling gold.

It seems because they sell you gems for your cash, and then you use gems to buy gold, that you believe falsely that you have not payed real cash for gold.

It is because you have paid Anet real world cash for their in game gold that they sold to you, that they can pay their employees salaries.

yes, Anet buying and selling gold gives in game gold value, which can be then used to pay salaries, and wages, and profits used to disburse to stockholders… just like any other Gold seller makes money from selling Anet’s in game gold against the TOS, Anet also makes Money from selling Gold, except they do it by first selling you gems, which you then use to buy gold.

It seems you still have a hard time understanding this. I hope that you understand it better.

Some people feel that because the price of gems in cash is stable, and fixed, while the exchange between Gems and gold fluctuates, that they are not purchasing something of value. To me this makes no sense.

The fact that the amount of Gold you get when you exchange gems for gold fluctuates does not in any way negate in game gold’s monetary value.

Just because in game gold only exists on Anet’s server doesn’r mean that it lacks value, especially when they sell it for cash, using gems as an intermediate step.

It’s Like If you pay cash for Item A, and exchange Item A for Item B, you paid cash for Item B.

I found the following in The Encyclopedia Britannica It is accepted as a source by many.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/602836/transitive-law

transitive law, in mathematics and logic, statement that if A bears some relation to B and B bears the same relation to C, then A bears it to C. In arithmetic, the property of equality is transitive, for if A = B and B = C, then A = C. Likewise is the property inequality if the two inequalities have the same sense: that is, if A is greater than B (i.e., A > and B > C, then A > C; and if A is less than B (i.e., A < and B < C, then A < C. An example of an intransitive relation is: if B is the daughter of A, and C is the daughter of B, then C is not the daughter of A; and of a nontransitive relation: if A loves B, and B loves C, then A may or may not love C.

These figures are from Gw2spidy:

$1.25 = 100 Gems, … 100 gems = 9 gold 85 silver.

By using the mathematical transitive law of identity….

$1.25 = 9 g 85 silver.

Therefore In game Gold has value.

I include it here, since you had a hard time understanding how if A = B, and B=C, then A=C, is a mathematical law, and Not a fallacy.

If you still feel it is a fallacy, you may wish to get in touch with The Encyclopedia Britannica to correct their entry.