Guild Wars 2

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Wanze.8410:

Rouven.7409:

John Smith.4610:

I actually do have ways of measuring the emotional side, but the forums are only one variable and have to be compared to other sources of data. I would definitely not use surveys or exit interviews as they are massively biased data sources and I personally am not a fan of either in this setting.

Interesting. Are you able to elaborate or give a general example of how this works? How accurate would you deem that way of measuring? I’m sure there are ways to establish patterns and cross referencing them (in-game TP browsing perhaps?) but surely this data cannot be complete, although I assume it will average out over the masses.

At the end of his shift he simply calculates, how much rare weapons have been thrown into the mystic forge. Destroying rare weapons generates players tears. The more rares are thrown in, the more tears. Thats how you accurately measure the emotional side.

But how do you differentiate between the tears of failed forging, and the tears of a successful Precursor forge drop? In order for your results to be scientifically accurate, you need to calculate this difference into your end results, or else you risk contaminating your entire sample.

Tears of Joy from forging a precursor can be disregarded because every precursor that gets linked it chat produces at least a similar amount of Tears of Rage from other players.

QUICK EVERYONE INVEST IN TEARS OF GRENTH!!

Smooth Penguin.5294:

munkiman.3068:

I finally had time to test a few hypothesis last night, something i wanted to do 20 pages ago. While i did see some minor evidence that “price spiking” was taking place in a few markets, i cannot conclude anything definitive (mostly since i don’t have the tools). While i still firmly believe players are earning profit faster on the TP than most other methods, simply based on watching a few do it, i now feel it’s not as rampant as i initially thought, which is good, i learned some new things!

I do also feel that there should be some regulation in place outside of pure bulk movement of the market. But i digress, as i can’t really solve that, nor can i pin point a problem in the markets current state. Thank you all for the stimulating discussion

Just wanted to point something out. If you’re only looking at a few items over the course of last nite, that doesn’t show anything more than the velocity of the markets. For instance, Linen scraps. Prices for these were jumping roughly 10% between low and high sell prices. A lot sold at both ends. So the spikes were most likely people just paying what they felt it was worth at that moment, based on their needs for the item (either for crafting of flipping).

As a segue into a similar topic, I can convert 5 million Karma into Linen and sell it for huge money. Discuss!

yeah, last night was a bad time to do analysis. The “price spiking” seemed to be more about people cashing in on lucky/semi-informed speculation.

Either way though i really do appreciate your guys time responded to my rants.

Fenrir.3609:

If you are looking for maximum potential earnings via pve (which I assume you are)

I am not, actually. The average/casual player generally doesn’t min/max anything, much less earnings. There just wouldn’t be enough time for them to maximize earnings because it would mean focusing on:

Selling dungeons.
Speed running dungeons.
T6 orientated farming.

Which they either don’t have the skill for, or have the time for. But they have time and skill for other things. But those other things, especially now with the nerfs (I’m counting the scheduled bosses as a nerf for this instance), pay out so little and are so reliant on RNG, that the difference in income potential is huge, whether it’s been minned or maxed.

Fenrir.3609:

Now, since the feature patch, I will say I have noticed a decrease in returns, though given the fact that my sample size since the patch is tiny, that could be (and more than likely is) down to just pure bad luck/RNG.

But see, RNG is part of the problem. In this game, RNG is so….RNG-y that a player could always have that bad luck. Forever. That’s why the TP has such a heavy reliance to begin with. Because the drop rate of items is so abysmally low, to the point where everyone would rather make gold and get it off the TP, because if they don’t, they know the odds are so slim, they’ll never see any specific item, doubly so if they only have a few hours to play each day, if they even have each day.

It’s also why in my original argument I was taking the low end with what you could get in things like JP chests. And if I were to determine income from World Bosses, I’d only factor in the daily rare, and then blues and greens for the chest, because it’s the only guaranteed rare.

Gene Archer.8560:

Fenrir.3609:

If you are looking for maximum potential earnings via pve (which I assume you are)

I am not, actually. The average/casual player generally doesn’t min/max anything, much less earnings. There just wouldn’t be enough time for them to maximize earnings because it would mean focusing on:

Selling dungeons.
Speed running dungeons.
T6 orientated farming.

Which they either don’t have the skill for, or have the time for. But they have time and skill for other things. But those other things, especially now with the nerfs (I’m counting the scheduled bosses as a nerf for this instance), pay out so little and are so reliant on RNG, that the difference in income potential is huge, whether it’s been minned or maxed.

Fenrir.3609:

Now, since the feature patch, I will say I have noticed a decrease in returns, though given the fact that my sample size since the patch is tiny, that could be (and more than likely is) down to just pure bad luck/RNG.

But see, RNG is part of the problem. In this game, RNG is so….RNG-y that a player could always have that bad luck. Forever. That’s why the TP has such a heavy reliance to begin with. Because the drop rate of items is so abysmally low, to the point where everyone would rather make gold and get it off the TP, because if they don’t, they know the odds are so slim, they’ll never see any specific item, doubly so if they only have a few hours to play each day, if they even have each day.

It’s also why in my original argument I was taking the low end with what you could get in things like JP chests. And if I were to determine income from World Bosses, I’d only factor in the daily rare, and then blues and greens for the chest, because it’s the only guaranteed rare.

Your whole post is based on a fundamental mistake. It’s not that RNG is so bad that it forces us to use the TP. It’s because most players are impatient. Period.

Legendary weapons were supposed to take close to a year to get, but the TP allowed players to do it within a couple months. Ascended weapons and armor crafting was time gated, but the TP allows us to skip the 1-per-day limit on the main T7 mats. Spinal Blade backpieces required you to farm Scarlet events over and over for Assault Knight Power Cores, but the TP allows us to get all we need within 5 minutes.

The Black Lion Trading Post is a tool that allows players to buy and sell on an open market. It’s not an item generating quest or boss event. If you’re willing to pay the price, someone is willing to sell it. Now if you have the patience to wait, and allow the game to reward you with the necessary drops, you’ll save that much money in the long run.

The only problem with RNG is the shear size of the reward table. There is an enormous chance to get low grade gear or gear unusable by your character. That makes the instance of actually getting something your character can use that has better stats seem so rare. That’s why RNG seems worse as you level, there is just a greater and greater chance at getting something “useless” which you salvage, TP or forge.

And if you are fortunate enough to get an exotic drop, it’s likely not something your character can use. There is a infinitesimally small chance that it you just won the precursor lottery if it was a weapon.

Now if they could weight the table so there’s a greater change that what’s dropped is both useful to your profession and of similar or better grade then maybe some of the grousing will go away. To be clear I’m not saying only useful to your profession and only similar grade or higher, just a better change that a player would find it directly useful Vs recyclable “junk”.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Your whole post is based on a fundamental mistake. It’s not that RNG is so bad that it forces us to use the TP. It’s because most players are impatient. Period.

No, RNG is definitely a problem. Period.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Legendary weapons were supposed to take close to a year to get,

And the required Precursor may never drop at all, which means that someone could play for five years and never obtain the Legendary they’re after. A Legendary can not be crafted unless the requisite Precursor is obtained. The only way to bypass the Precursor is to buy the Legendary outright.

That’s not a patience problem, that’s an RNG problem.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Now if you have the patience to wait, and allow the game to reward you with the necessary drops,.

That implies that the game -will- reward those necessary drops with any kind of guarantee. And there is no guarantee, that’s why it’s RNG. Patience is all well and good, but nobody is going to just remain patient forever if that patience never actually pays off.

Behellagh.1468:

The only problem with RNG is the shear size of the reward table. There is an enormous chance to get low grade gear or gear unusable by your character. That makes the instance of actually getting something your character can use that has better stats seem so rare. That’s why RNG seems worse as you level, there is just a greater and greater chance at getting something “useless” which you salvage, TP or forge.

And if you are fortunate enough to get an exotic drop, it’s likely not something your character can use. There is a infinitesimally small chance that it you just won the precursor lottery if it was a weapon.

Now if they could weight the table so there’s a greater change that what’s dropped is both useful to your profession and of similar or better grade then maybe some of the grousing will go away. To be clear I’m not saying only useful to your profession and only similar grade or higher, just a better change that a player would find it directly useful Vs recyclable “junk”.

One of the problems with this would be that some players will feel forced to play certain professions for certain loot. If I wanted a higher chance at getting Dawn or Dusk, I’d have to loot-stick on my Guardian (as if I do anything different anyway). If I wanted Scarlet’s rifle, I’d have to play Warr or Engi.

Gene Archer.8560:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Your whole post is based on a fundamental mistake. It’s not that RNG is so bad that it forces us to use the TP. It’s because most players are impatient. Period.

No, RNG is definitely a problem. Period.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Legendary weapons were supposed to take close to a year to get,

And the required Precursor may never drop at all, which means that someone could play for five years and never obtain the Legendary they’re after. A Legendary can not be crafted unless the requisite Precursor is obtained. The only way to bypass the Precursor is to buy the Legendary outright.

That’s not a patience problem, that’s an RNG problem.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Now if you have the patience to wait, and allow the game to reward you with the necessary drops,.

That implies that the game -will- reward those necessary drops with any kind of guarantee. And there is no guarantee, that’s why it’s RNG. Patience is all well and good, but nobody is going to just remain patient forever if that patience never actually pays off.

Again, all points you make are wrong. RNG is not flawed, but rather your thinking of it is. If you don’t get what you want, then “RNG is bad”. But when you get a good drop, it’s “The Six blessed me today!”

It’s understandable, since most people don’t understand how RNG works, and why it’s needed. If everyone got what they wanted, when they wanted it, this game would die within months of release.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Behellagh.1468:

<snip>

Now if they could weight the table so there’s a greater change that what’s dropped is both useful to your profession and of similar or better grade then maybe some of the grousing will go away. To be clear I’m not saying only useful to your profession and only similar grade or higher, just a better change that a player would find it directly useful Vs recyclable “junk”.

One of the problems with this would be that some players will feel forced to play certain professions for certain loot. If I wanted a higher chance at getting Dawn or Dusk, I’d have to loot-stick on my Guardian (as if I do anything different anyway). If I wanted Scarlet’s rifle, I’d have to play Warr or Engi.

Note the part of my quote I bolded. Not exclusive, just an increase chance. Take armor. 1/3rd chance it’s the right weight for your profession. Make it 40% or even 50%. The “useless to you” items are important game wide as a source of tradable items. But if players don’t want the TP to be THE source of useful items for their character, that they want the rewards from PvE to seem better, then this might be a way to accomplish this.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Again, all points you make are wrong.

So you can prove that a Precursor will drop before someone has hit their fifth year?

You can prove there’s a way to bypass the Precursor but still craft a Legendary?

Then prove it.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

If you don’t get what you want, then “RNG is bad”. But when you get a good drop, it’s “The Six blessed me today!”

More like, when a good drop happens in this game: “It’s about kitten time”

Smooth Penguin.5294:

It’s understandable, since most people don’t understand how RNG works, and why it’s needed.

I don’t think you understand how RNG works, frankly.

But by all means, prove that RNG will pay off and that a Precursor is a guaranteed drop after a year of playing.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

If everyone got what they wanted, when they wanted it, this game would die within months of release.

So in other words, to you, the point of RNG is to keep a player playing by -never- actually rewarding them.

Yeeeeeah, that generally leads to burn out and those people eventually stop playing and don’t return. “Carrot on a stick” gameplay only works if you actually award the carrot at some point.

Gene Archer.8560:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Again, all points you make are wrong.

So you can prove that a Precursor will drop before someone has hit their fifth year?

You can prove there’s a way to bypass the Precursor but still craft a Legendary?

Then prove it.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

If you don’t get what you want, then “RNG is bad”. But when you get a good drop, it’s “The Six blessed me today!”

More like, when a good drop happens in this game: “It’s about kitten time”

Smooth Penguin.5294:

It’s understandable, since most people don’t understand how RNG works, and why it’s needed.

I don’t think you understand how RNG works, frankly.

But by all means, prove that RNG will pay off and that a Precursor is a guaranteed drop after a year of playing.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

If everyone got what they wanted, when they wanted it, this game would die within months of release.

So in other words, to you, the point of RNG is to keep a player playing by -never- actually rewarding them.

Yeeeeeah, that generally leads to burn out and those people eventually stop playing and don’t return. “Carrot on a stick” gameplay only works if you actually award the carrot at some point.

It seems you’re missing a lot of points. I’ll break it down for you.

1) I don’t need to provide proof of anything. I merely countered your arguments that are solely based on your own personal preferences not being met. Burden of proof actually falls on you to prove RNG is bad.

2) RNG means Random Number Generator. In layman’s terms, it refers to “luck”. That means the only guarantee you have is that you’re getting a random number out of the loot table.

3) RNG always rewards something. If you keep rolling on the same loot table, at some point you’ll get “what you want”.

4) The “burn out” you mention is mainly due to impatient players not getting their way. This leads back to the “Entitlement” issues that some players have.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

It seems you’re missing a lot of points.

If anyone is missing the point, it’s you.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

1) I don’t need to provide proof of anything. I merely countered your arguments that are solely based on your own personal preferences not being met. Burden of proof actually falls on you to prove RNG is bad.

RNG is bad because it means there is absolutely no guarantee that at any point in time, someone will obtain what they want through the drop system. It doesn’t matter how long they play, there is the chance they will never see said item.

Without a guarantee that at some point, a goal will be reached, even if it’s some time in the far flung future, there is no point to pursue that goal, because to never achieve the goal means that said invested time has been wasted.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

2) RNG means Random Number Generator. In layman’s terms, it refers to “luck”. That means the only guarantee you have is that you’re getting a random number out of the loot table.

Which proves my point that it could be five years before someone ever sees a Precursor drop for them.

So I was in fact right. Thank you for agreeing with me.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

3) RNG always rewards something. If you keep rolling on the same loot table, at some point you’ll get “what you want”.

Which proves my point that it could be five years before someone ever sees a Precursor. Because it’s at “some point”, not “this point in the future”.

Once again, thank you for agreeing with me.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

4) The “burn out” you mention is mainly due to impatient players not getting their way. This leads back to the “Entitlement” issues that some players have.

Would you say the person that inevitably has to wait five years has entitlement issues? Is five years not enough patience? If so, what is enough patience?

Gene Archer.8560:

I don’t think you understand how RNG works, frankly.

But by all means, prove that RNG will pay off and that a Precursor is a guaranteed drop after a year of playing.

This statement shows you definitely don’t. It’s based on probabilities. There is no guarantee there ever. Chance to get something is based on # of events, not a period of time.

RNG as a method itself isn’t bad at all. It’s simply another one of those things where players who don’t educate themselves can get screwed over.

Obtena.7952:

There is no guarantee there ever.

THAT’S MY WHOLE kittenING POINT, GOD kitten IT!

Obtena.7952:

Chance to get something is based on # of events, not a period of time.

All this does is change my argument to: It doesn’t matter how many events you do, because it’s random and there’s only a chance, you can do 5 million events and never see the item you’re after.

You guys keep saying I don’t understand what RNG is, when so far as I can see, you’re the ones that don’t understand it, cause you’re the ones arguing that those items eventually must drop.

Gene Archer.8560:

You guys keep saying I don’t understand what RNG is, when so far as I can see, you’re the ones that don’t understand it, cause you’re the ones arguing that those items eventually must drop.

Those items do eventually drop because the chance to get a ‘win’ from a single event is non-zero. That’s just a basic combinatorial arithmetic. The real world proof is the fact that people in game have those things FROM drops.

It not relevant anyways because if you educate yourself instead of blindly going down the RNG path, you can made an EDUCATED decision to not do it. The ‘fix’ for RNG is for players to get the information to make the decision, not QQ that RNG is the worst thing ever.

Obtena.7952:

Those items do eventually drop because the chance to get a ‘true’ is non-zero. Doing a event 5 million times and never getting the item your after simply depends on the chance. Very simply.

But again, it’s only a chance. Which means that there is the chance that you will never see the item. And in the case of precursors? The chance is so small on an individual level that never seeing one is a very real possibility.

Obtena.7952:

It not relevant anyways because if you educate yourself instead of blindly going down the RNG path, you can made an EDUCATED decision to not do it.

So the solution to getting a precursor through non-TP methods is to…not get a precursor at all? GENIUS!

Gene Archer.8560:

~~ snip ~~~

Tons of fallacies here. You have yet to prove anything except for the fact that you didn’t get what you wanted. That, in and of itself, is not a problem.

You have every right to feel Entitled to stuff, but you can’t use that as a basis for your arguments. The “I didn’t get what I want, so it’s bad” argument doesn’t work. Never has. When you come back with some substance that backs your stated issues, we’ll continue this debate.

Side note – you’re always guaranteed to get something random with RNG. So that countered that whole other point you brought up too.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Side note – you’re always guaranteed to get something random with RNG. So that countered that whole other point you brought up too.

My entire point is that it’s random. What don’t you understand about that?

Gene Archer.8560:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Side note – you’re always guaranteed to get something random with RNG. So that countered that whole other point you brought up too.

My entire point is that it’s random. What don’t you understand about that?

I don’t think you understand the fact that “random” does not mean “guaranteed”. It’s like arguing that the sun is hot, or water is wet.

And not to rub salt in the wound, but I got a Precursor as a drop from an Ogre event while running with my guild this past weekend. RNG works.

Gene Archer.8560:

Obtena.7952:

It not relevant anyways because if you educate yourself instead of blindly going down the RNG path, you can made an EDUCATED decision to not do it.

So the solution to getting a precursor through non-TP methods is to…not get a precursor at all? GENIUS!

Again, your lack of understanding what the RNG works is demonstrated by this statement. Precursors are populated in the TP through NON_TP methods so there are obviously ways to get them not in the TP. It’s just a matter of whether you do it or not, hence my statement to make an educated decision.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Gene Archer.8560:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Again, all points you make are wrong.

So you can prove that a Precursor will drop before someone has hit their fifth year?

You can prove there’s a way to bypass the Precursor but still craft a Legendary?

Then prove it.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

If you don’t get what you want, then “RNG is bad”. But when you get a good drop, it’s “The Six blessed me today!”

More like, when a good drop happens in this game: “It’s about kitten time”

Smooth Penguin.5294:

It’s understandable, since most people don’t understand how RNG works, and why it’s needed.

I don’t think you understand how RNG works, frankly.

But by all means, prove that RNG will pay off and that a Precursor is a guaranteed drop after a year of playing.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

If everyone got what they wanted, when they wanted it, this game would die within months of release.

So in other words, to you, the point of RNG is to keep a player playing by -never- actually rewarding them.

Yeeeeeah, that generally leads to burn out and those people eventually stop playing and don’t return. “Carrot on a stick” gameplay only works if you actually award the carrot at some point.

It seems you’re missing a lot of points. I’ll break it down for you.

1) I don’t need to provide proof of anything. I merely countered your arguments that are solely based on your own personal preferences not being met. Burden of proof actually falls on you to prove RNG is bad.

2) RNG means Random Number Generator. In layman’s terms, it refers to “luck”. That means the only guarantee you have is that you’re getting a random number out of the loot table.

3) RNG always rewards something. If you keep rolling on the same loot table, at some point you’ll get “what you want”.

4) The “burn out” you mention is mainly due to impatient players not getting their way. This leads back to the “Entitlement” issues that some players have.

you are wrong, you suffer from gambler’s fallacy.

random means that it is possible the number will never ever come up. If you can predict any behavior you dont have true random.

now you can say its likely that if something is a 1/6th chance, and you try 100 times you should win. but that is all about you should/can/supposed to. The fact is that the chance never actually at the instance of picking ever gets any better.

to make it clear, with each time you fail, your odds of success do not increase. Before you attempt a trial you can make predictions based on probability, however if its truely random, you may in fact never actually win.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

I don’t think you understand the fact that “random” does not mean “guaranteed”.

THIS IS MY ENTIRE POINT. THIS IS MY ENTIRE kittenING POINT. QUIT kittenING IGNORING THAT THIS IS MY POINT.

Yes, thus my original statement that the TP is the only non-random way to obtain a precursor. Thus my original statement that a precursor may never drop for a person, BECAUSE IT’S RANDOM.

I’ve said this entire time, that by the nature of being random, a person may never see a precursor, because the drop is random and the drop rate is incredibly low.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

And not to rub salt in the wound, but I got a Precursor as a drop from an Ogre event while running with my guild this past weekend. RNG works.

Good for you? I’ve done a ton of events and still haven’t seen one. That’s also RNG working, and it will be RNG working if I -never- see one, ever.

THAT’S MY ENTIRE POINT.

Obtena.7952:

Precursors are populated in the TP through NON_TP methods so there are obviously ways to get them not in the TP.

And those only ways are completely random. Which again means that someone may never see the drop, ever.

Unless you know of a guaranteed method that isn’t the TP?

They are trolling you.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Gene Archer.8560:

Fenrir.3609:

If you are looking for maximum potential earnings via pve (which I assume you are)

I am not, actually. The average/casual player generally doesn’t min/max anything, much less earnings. There just wouldn’t be enough time for them to maximize earnings because it would mean focusing on:

Selling dungeons.
Speed running dungeons.
T6 orientated farming.

Which they either don’t have the skill for, or have the time for. But they have time and skill for other things. But those other things, especially now with the nerfs (I’m counting the scheduled bosses as a nerf for this instance), pay out so little and are so reliant on RNG, that the difference in income potential is huge, whether it’s been minned or maxed.

Fenrir.3609:

Now, since the feature patch, I will say I have noticed a decrease in returns, though given the fact that my sample size since the patch is tiny, that could be (and more than likely is) down to just pure bad luck/RNG.

But see, RNG is part of the problem. In this game, RNG is so….RNG-y that a player could always have that bad luck. Forever. That’s why the TP has such a heavy reliance to begin with. Because the drop rate of items is so abysmally low, to the point where everyone would rather make gold and get it off the TP, because if they don’t, they know the odds are so slim, they’ll never see any specific item, doubly so if they only have a few hours to play each day, if they even have each day.

It’s also why in my original argument I was taking the low end with what you could get in things like JP chests. And if I were to determine income from World Bosses, I’d only factor in the daily rare, and then blues and greens for the chest, because it’s the only guaranteed rare.

Your whole post is based on a fundamental mistake. It’s not that RNG is so bad that it forces us to use the TP. It’s because most players are impatient. Period.

Legendary weapons were supposed to take close to a year to get, but the TP allowed players to do it within a couple months. Ascended weapons and armor crafting was time gated, but the TP allows us to skip the 1-per-day limit on the main T7 mats. Spinal Blade backpieces required you to farm Scarlet events over and over for Assault Knight Power Cores, but the TP allows us to get all we need within 5 minutes.

The Black Lion Trading Post is a tool that allows players to buy and sell on an open market. It’s not an item generating quest or boss event. If you’re willing to pay the price, someone is willing to sell it. Now if you have the patience to wait, and allow the game to reward you with the necessary drops, you’ll save that much money in the long run.

its not impatience, its the rng. the game is made so that you get a lot of things you dont want, and cannot store before you get the things you do want.

on the other side, other people get the item you want, and they dont want.

So you have the person seeking the item not getting it in a reasonable time frame, and the person who has no use, and infact cannot keep this item, with NO other way to offload the item but to put it on the TP. (or gamble it away with a good chance of getting less than they put in)

The TP is placed in the game by force. And one of the reasons why the TP will always be profitable, is because players really have no choice but to buy and sell via TP. I played the game before the TP was active, and you simply had to destroy or sell to npc a lot of items, because you didnt have enough inventory, or much use for a great many of the things you get.

Gene Archer.8560:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Side note – you’re always guaranteed to get something random with RNG. So that countered that whole other point you brought up too.

My entire point is that it’s random. What don’t you understand about that?

Finally got around to the “I hate RNG” rant… this thread is officially dead.

My experiences in this game are exactly like my experiences in every other MMO I’ve ever played: I get lots of vendor trash, some stuff I can’t use except to sell/salvage and occasionally something that makes me go “oh, cool!”

This is no different from any other game that I’ve ever played. Apparently I need to start playing WoW, where every trash mob drops ultra-rare loot that raises your stats another 10 points.

Gene Archer.8560:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

I don’t think you understand the fact that “random” does not mean “guaranteed”.

THIS IS MY ENTIRE POINT. THIS IS MY ENTIRE kittenING POINT. QUIT kittenING IGNORING THAT THIS IS MY POINT.

Yes, thus my original statement that the TP is the only non-random way to obtain a precursor. Thus my original statement that a precursor may never drop for a person, BECAUSE IT’S RANDOM.

I’ve said this entire time, that by the nature of being random, a person may never see a precursor, because the drop is random and the drop rate is incredibly low.

This is intentional. The devs knew this when programming the game and set it up this way. You don’t have to like it, but people have been saying they don’t like it 24 hours a day, 7 days a week since the game launched, and guess what! It hasn’t changed. It’s not going to change.

You don’t have to like it, and I don’t have to care whether you like it or not. I don’t.

phys.7689:

its not impatience, its the rng. the game is made so that you get a lot of things you dont want, and cannot store before you get the things you do want.

on the other side, other people get the item you want, and they dont want.

So you have the person seeking the item not getting it in a reasonable time frame, and the person who has no use, and infact cannot keep this item, with NO other way to offload the item but to put it on the TP. (or gamble it away with a good chance of getting less than they put in)

The TP is placed in the game by force. And one of the reasons why the TP will always be profitable, is because players really have no choice but to buy and sell via TP. I played the game before the TP was active, and you simply had to destroy or sell to npc a lot of items, because you didnt have enough inventory, or much use for a great many of the things you get.

This is called “working as intended.” I don’t see a problem here, aside from the statements by some people that they don’t like it. It works, and it works very efficiently. Things I don’t want magically turn into coin of the realm that I exchange for things I do want. The massive size of the TP means there is almost always a buyer for something I don’t want, and a seller offering something that I do want.

So, some people think that this is a bad thing. Why should I care?

tolunart.2095:

Finally got around to the “I hate RNG” rant… this thread is officially dead.

If you say so chief.

tolunart.2095:

My experiences in this game are exactly like my experiences in every other MMO I’ve ever played: I get lots of vendor trash, some stuff I can’t use except to sell/salvage and occasionally something that makes me go “oh, cool!”

I can honestly say that I have had better experiences in terms of loot in WoW and TOR than in this game. Hell, I’ve had better loot experiences in Maplestory. MAPLE STORY rewards loot better than this game. Think about that for a sec.

tolunart.2095:

This is no different from any other game that I’ve ever played. Apparently I need to start playing WoW, where every trash mob drops ultra-rare loot that raises your stats another 10 points.

The difference in WoW is that you can do specific things and as such, have a better drop chance. They’ve also implemented systems where if you don’t get a drop you’re after, you can literally increase your chances til you do get that item to drop.

tolunart.2095:

phys.7689:

its not impatience, its the rng. the game is made so that you get a lot of things you dont want, and cannot store before you get the things you do want.

on the other side, other people get the item you want, and they dont want.

So you have the person seeking the item not getting it in a reasonable time frame, and the person who has no use, and infact cannot keep this item, with NO other way to offload the item but to put it on the TP. (or gamble it away with a good chance of getting less than they put in)

The TP is placed in the game by force. And one of the reasons why the TP will always be profitable, is because players really have no choice but to buy and sell via TP. I played the game before the TP was active, and you simply had to destroy or sell to npc a lot of items, because you didnt have enough inventory, or much use for a great many of the things you get.

This is called “working as intended.” I don’t see a problem here, aside from the statements by some people that they don’t like it. It works, and it works very efficiently. Things I don’t want magically turn into coin of the realm that I exchange for things I do want. The massive size of the TP means there is almost always a buyer for something I don’t want, and a seller offering something that I do want.

So, some people think that this is a bad thing. Why should I care?

And thats why your opinion holds so little value, because really its only about what benefits you personally, not what makes a better more satisfying game. If you truely believed all players would be better off in your system it would be one thing. But you are better off in this system, and you really dont care.

You like being better, and earning more for playing the game your way. makes sense, but it doesnt help the game. It only helps you.

It’s been what? Six, seven pages since JS asked for workable theories about issues on the TP? There’s been none.

/thread

Aidan Savage.2078:

It’s been what? Six, seven pages since JS asked for workable theories about issues on the TP? There’s been none.

/thread

So tell me how much you can generally make in two hours by just flipping and I’ll give you a general idea of whether there’s a wealth disparity or not.

Wanna know why a wealth disparity is bad? I’ve already explained it. Go back and look, I’m done repeating myself for a bunch of people that go on about discussion but aren’t actually interested in discussion.

I’m done bringing up issues only to have them be ignored or stated as not being issues. The trading post could destroy an item upon purchase at 25% chance rather than giving you the item, and as long as that was intended, you’d say “working as intended” and say it was a good thing since it was doing what it set out to do.

tolunart.2095:

You don’t have to like it, and I don’t have to care whether you like it or not. I don’t.

And I don’t care what you think, either. So hey, there’s something we agree on.

Aidan Savage.2078:

It’s been what? Six, seven pages since JS asked for workable theories about issues on the TP? There’s been none.

/thread

I’m still waiting for the complainers to come up with a valid argument. The common complaints seems to be “RNG doesn’t guarantee me what I want” and “Rich people should be punished”. By nature, that is what RNG is, and jealousy makes people envious of the wealthy. So perhaps it’s just some players can’t grasp the concept of RNG, and just hates that some have more money than others.

Gene Archer.8560:

And I don’t care what you think, either. So hey, there’s something we agree on.

And it doesn’t matter what any of us thinks. The only ones that matter are the people from Anet. Everything is working as intended.

Alas, there’s so many fallacies being spouted here, that it’ll take me a while to name them all. It’s hard to debate a fallacy, so instead, I’ll quote John:

John Smith.4610:

Tears are the source of my evil powers, but not a source of data…………yet.

I’m still waiting for the complainers about the complainers to be anything other than hypocritical.

Amazing how that works…..

Problem is GW2 is known for being an unrewarding game. That, they should be worried about. No chart, arrogance, tears, or yes men posters will change that while turning a blind eye to it.

So then tell me how much you make in two hours when you flip.

I can give you all the data you want after that, but I need that number. Unsure of the number? Give me what you feel is a safe assumption/estimate of that number. If you flip, you’ll have a better idea of that number than I will.

So tell me, already.

Essence Snow.3194:

Problem is GW2 is known for being an unrewarding game. That, they should be worried about. No chart, arrogance, tears, or yes men posters will change that while turning a blind eye to it.

Unrewarding? Is this another ‘fact’ that isn’t based on data?

You’re smart enough, I hope, to figure it out. Use that thing on your shoulders. Then I won’t have to answer questions for you.

I’m smart enough to know that what I feel and what is fact aren’t the same thing. I’m also smart enough to not jump to the conclusion that suits my own position in a discussion.

Some people may find GW2 unrewarding. This does not make the game, generally, unrewarding to play. It’s not going to be everything for everyone. The idea that the game isn’t rewarding to everyone does not indicate a problem; I doubt Anet’s goal is to appeal to every player ever and retain them for the length of the game’s duration. That’s simply unrealistic. The people that do in fact play it and find it rewarding would naturally not conclude that GW2 is unrewarding. The sad part is that this should be obvious.

So I guess Anet acknowledging that they needed to work on rewards was a figment of my imagination to suit my feelings and position in this discussion? Come on man. Now you’re not even trying.

That’s just your biased interpretation … again, that whole ‘concluding things that suit your position’ thing.

There are numerous reasons Anet would modify rewards and they don’t absolutely or necessarily indicate that the game was not rewarding. If the game wasn’t rewarding, it would be very obviously indicated by the size of the playerbase.

If other games are a reasonable benchmark (and they are be because their isn’t a lack of Fanstasy-themed MMO’s), It’s easy to argue that GW2 is actually quite a rewarding experience for players.

Oh so I guess there doesn’t have a be a problem for them to modify the game? But, you been arguing that there needs to be one, yelling for proof and such. Why flip flop now? To suit your argument?

There has to be a sensible approach to modifying the game, even moreso when the change being proposed ISN’T addressing a problem. This is why JS is challenging people to show him a hypothesis he should test.

So please do tell. I’ll wait patiently. What is this sensible approach?

No need to wait .. it’s just as I said above … JS outlined in this thread what he would deem sensible as an approach to see if a change to how the TP works should be looked into.

Ok, but I and others have explained why that wasn’t a sensible approach. Mainly due to all the unneeded steps.

Gene Archer.8560:

Obtena.7952:

Precursors are populated in the TP through NON_TP methods so there are obviously ways to get them not in the TP.

And those only ways are completely random. Which again means that someone may never see the drop, ever.

That’s why you have the option to get it by buying it in the TP. You aren’t actually grasping the reason why the TP as it functions is helpful for the player you are describing. The irony is that while complaining about the randomness of the drop, you aren’t willing to acknowledge the sure thing of buying from the TP.

Essence Snow.3194:

Ok, but I and others have explained why that wasn’t a sensible approach. Mainly due to all the unneeded steps.

That’s funny because I don’t think JS gives a rat’s behind if you don’t think what he’s asking for is sensible. Remember, you want to convince HIM this needs to be changed … he’s giving you the opportunity to do that. You’re just throwing that back in his face and telling him it’s nonsense? Good Luck. I know I’m assured that this won’t be changed if this is the best foot forward.

Isn’t funny how they are adding that approach back into the game slowly but surely?

I might be funny if you could be more specific. I didn’t see changes to the TP being added into the game so the irony is lost on me. If what you say is true, then what’s all the fuss about? If you are seeing changes that move the game into the direction you want to see, isn’t this just you trolling us all?

Remember I don’t care about convincing him. How quickly we forget.