Guild Wars 2

Pie Flavor.1647:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Microtransactions and vanity items are important to Chinese and Korean players. These groups tend to have more disposable income, or the willingness to spend a large portion of their income, on games. That’s why P2W games are popular in Asia. I remember reading an article of a player would bid $16,000 to have a unique, one of a kind in-game sword.

As for these items being P2W, these are close, but still not at the same levels of other Asian games. So far, none of the items I’m seeing provide any clear advantages for paying customers than non-paying. But once we see Gem store items that increase weapon damage or armor rating (not counting +5% boosters) by large amounts, then the game can effectively be called P2W.

the amount of ignorant assumptions here is incredible.

vanity items are just as important to western players as to korean/chinese players, they are also human, and not drastically different from us.

And why do they have more disposable income? I thought the entire concept of First World meant that people on the First World would have more disposable income, yet again, a “statistic” not backed by any source

And why if someone bought a virtual item for $16000? Golden Roshan couriers for Dota 2 are selling for $1000+ each, and there are several of them, I’d say the western virtual market moves as much money as the asian virtual market.

Once again, people jumping into the “asians are different” card when in reality they have no idea what they’re talking about.

Either you are offended by the ‘asians are different’ comment and trying to ‘defend’ it or you want to ignore facts and trends that business analytics has done over the years.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/johngaudiosi/2012/06/06/booming-chinese-mmo-games-market-forecast-to-generate-6-1-billion-in-2012/

The Chinese market of course would prefer no microtransactions, but the market is already used to – psychologically and financially – to accept microtransactions due to the prevalence of that business model over there.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Katastrofi.5816:

Taras.4578:

It’s sad that this generation of gaming has lost its bearing of the true meaning of “pay2win”.

So what is the meaning of “pay2win” for you?

The definition is completely subjective, and it depends vastly on the application, so go for it.

It’s actually not that subjective. P2W means paying money to win. In a PvP situation, paying for a sword that has vastly better stats over what’s available for a non-paying customer is what P2W is all about. Think of it like “paying for a guaranteed win”. Same thing if you had a game with airplanes. Paying real money to buy an F-16 to combat someone in a hang-glider.

Okay, so based on your definition, some games rank their gear based on stats. There is an ultimate end-game item that is the best of the best, and yes, if this item was on a store for money, it would be pay to win.

How about GW2? Gear is not ULTIMATELY based on the stats (yes there are different tiers, ascended being the highest, but that’s realllyyy not the point for end-game). The entire game is built on novelty/vanity items. You show off your status based on the bling you have. The value of this ‘bling’ depends on its rarity, attainability, accessibility, popularity, etc, etc. That’s why anything you buy through the gem shop can be considered a ‘win’ because the value of the item from the shop can very well fall into one (or all) of those categories.

To me (and a lot of people) “winning” is achieving a goal. Now, maybe someone wants to do it the quickest and do it better than everyone else, but really means “you’ve beat something or someone.” The goal in this game is to have the rarest gear with the ‘best’ skins, some of which are found in the gem shop.

Point is, yes, the gem shop is P2W in the context of THIS game. An exotic is and exotic. The value of the exotic is not the stats, but the skin.

Apparently with a high enough VIP membership the teleporting to friends anywhere in-game is down to a 1 hour cooldown. Worth it!

Rising Dusk.2408:

Apparently with a high enough VIP membership the teleporting to friends anywhere in-game is down to a 1 hour cooldown. Worth it!

Perhaps we can obtain “VIP dust” by salvaging rare, exotic or ascended items – similar fashion to “luck”. Hehe. One day.

kokiman.2364:

Win what?               

exactly. convenience is not pay to win. only things that give players a permanent power advantage over other players are pay to win.

http://youtu.be/daxxVviKvgo

also, LotRO has had VIP since it went free to play and nobody thinks that’s pay to win.

http://www.lotro.com/en/game/vip

Katastrofi.5816:

To me (and a lot of people) “winning” is achieving a goal. Now, maybe someone wants to do it the quickest and do it better than everyone else, but really means “you’ve beat something or someone.” The goal in this game is to have the rarest gear with the ‘best’ skins, some of which are found in the gem shop.

Point is, yes, the gem shop is P2W in the context of THIS game. An exotic is and exotic. The value of the exotic is not the stats, but the skin.

In that case the game is and has already been P2W since start since you can buy Gold with real Cash, and it doesn’t makes any sense to further discuss if any new item or service is p2w since EVERYTHING that is buyable by Gold in any form is P2W.

Beldin.5498:

Katastrofi.5816:

To me (and a lot of people) “winning” is achieving a goal. Now, maybe someone wants to do it the quickest and do it better than everyone else, but really means “you’ve beat something or someone.” The goal in this game is to have the rarest gear with the ‘best’ skins, some of which are found in the gem shop.

Point is, yes, the gem shop is P2W in the context of THIS game. An exotic is and exotic. The value of the exotic is not the stats, but the skin.

In that case the game is and has already been P2W since start since you can buy Gold with real Cash, and it doesn’t makes any sense to further discuss if any new item or service is p2w since EVERYTHING that is buyable by Gold in any form is P2W.

Correct.

I don’t understand why it’s still a discussion.

Pie Flavor.1647:

~~~ snip ~~~

I can tell that you’re not familiar with the differences between our two markets. Western gamers are far different then Asian gamers. I could do a 10 page forum post on explaining why. I’ll do the short TL;DR version below.

Asian gamers and Western gamers both want to look good and win, yes. However, in the Asian market, the game culture far surpasses anything you’ll find in the US or Europe. Video games is a sport, to put it as simple as possible. Some kids can make 6 figure salaries from sponsorship alone. That aside, the Asian market of P2W is more accepted, as the better your character looks/plays, the more status you have. Status in the Asian gaming culture is very important. So people are willing to dish out larger sums of money than most Western gamers would. That’s not to say a few on our side don’t spend as much.

Katastrofi.5816:

Okay, so based on your definition, some games rank their gear based on stats. There is an ultimate end-game item that is the best of the best, and yes, if this item was on a store for money, it would be pay to win.

How about GW2? Gear is not ULTIMATELY based on the stats (yes there are different tiers, ascended being the highest, but that’s realllyyy not the point for end-game). The entire game is built on novelty/vanity items. You show off your status based on the bling you have. The value of this ‘bling’ depends on its rarity, attainability, accessibility, popularity, etc, etc. That’s why anything you buy through the gem shop can be considered a ‘win’ because the value of the item from the shop can very well fall into one (or all) of those categories.

To me (and a lot of people) “winning” is achieving a goal. Now, maybe someone wants to do it the quickest and do it better than everyone else, but really means “you’ve beat something or someone.” The goal in this game is to have the rarest gear with the ‘best’ skins, some of which are found in the gem shop.

Point is, yes, the gem shop is P2W in the context of THIS game. An exotic is and exotic. The value of the exotic is not the stats, but the skin.

Not sure if you actually read my quick explanation of what P2W really is. You should read it again, and see that every single example you posted is completely off base.

I’ll try to simplify it more by asking a single question. In Guild Wars 2, can you tell me what content, which gives large statistical advantages, is exclusive to “paying” customers over non-paying customers? The moment that you can answer this question, is the moment I’ll tell you GW2 is P2W.

This is not p2w. This is pretty much an optional subscription fee for convenience stuff. Although I must say, I feel sorry for the Chinese GW2 players Even if it’s acceptable, imagine how revolutionary it would have been if they would not have to “pay 2 play”.

That means, ANet would actually have to work on providing more content, heavens forbid! frequent expansions gasp

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Not sure if you actually read my quick explanation of what P2W really is. You should read it again, and see that every single example you posted is completely off base.

I’ll try to simplify it more by asking a single question. In Guild Wars 2, can you tell me what content, which gives large statistical advantages, is exclusive to “paying” customers over non-paying customers? The moment that you can answer this question, is the moment I’ll tell you GW2 is P2W.

Don’t be patronizing, I’m not an idiot.

You seem to be defining ‘P2W’ as a way for people to purchase exclusive items that is not otherwise obtainable by those who don’t. That is not necessarily true. Paying to win can also mean the person spending money is able to obtain said item faster or easier than someone who doesn’t. Basically it eliminates the time it takes for someone to obtain some end-game object, accelerating them to the ‘winning’ status.

So, by your definition of P2W, I cannot give you any example in this game because there aren’t any since gems can be bought with in-game currency. But if you would stop being so narrow-minded and open up to different interpretations of the phrase, maybe you can see where a lot of people are coming from when they say the gem store is P2W.

Edit:
I’ll give you a short and simple scenario:
There are two people, Jane and Joe.
Joe started to play the game and decided he didn’t want to spend a single penny on gear, so he farmed currency for the next 3 months to buy his gear.
Jane started to play the game and decided it took too long to farm the currency, so she bought $100 worth of in-game currency and bought the SAME gear.

Jane just paid to win.

Katastrofi.5816:

I cannot give you any example in this game because there aren’t any since gems can be bought with in-game currency.

Exactly. The true meaning of P2W was “Paying to Win”. Players pay real life money to have advantages over non-paying customers. Some refer to this mindset as being “elitists”, which isn’t far off. There’s an artificial barrier a game company makes that separates players who spend money, from those who don’t. That doesn’t mean the non-paying customer can’t play the game at all, but rather they play at a lower level.

Example: I can play an airplane or flying game for free with a hang-glider just fine, but if I spend $500 to buy an F-16, I can play it even better. I can fly higher, thus accessing more content. I can battle other hang-gliders with my F-16 and win every time. Etc.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Katastrofi.5816:

I cannot give you any example in this game because there aren’t any since gems can be bought with in-game currency.

Exactly. The true meaning of P2W was “Paying to Win”. Players pay real life money to have advantages over non-paying customers. Some refer to this mindset as being “elitists”, which isn’t far off. There’s an artificial barrier a game company makes that separates players who spend money, from those who don’t. That doesn’t mean the non-paying customer can’t play the game at all, but rather they play at a lower level.

Example: I can play an airplane or flying game for free with a hang-glider just fine, but if I spend $500 to buy an F-16, I can play it even better. I can fly higher, thus accessing more content. I can battle other hang-gliders with my F-16 and win every time. Etc.

There is no ‘true’ meaning of paying to win. You’re not wrong, but neither is my interpretation of the meaning.

But since you’re clearly not willing to accept any other form of argument, g’day.

No, the true and proper meaning of the term “P2W” is what I posted. Your “interpretation” of P2W is your own, thus is wrong. Sorta like saying salvaging an Exotic Jewel to get more mats back than what you put in isn’t an exploit, yet Anet sees it differently.

I get that over time, a word or term’s true meaning can evolve. But the original and intended meaning of the “P2W” term is “Paying to have an advantage over non-paying customers, thus winning”.

Katastrofi.5816:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Not sure if you actually read my quick explanation of what P2W really is. You should read it again, and see that every single example you posted is completely off base.

I’ll try to simplify it more by asking a single question. In Guild Wars 2, can you tell me what content, which gives large statistical advantages, is exclusive to “paying” customers over non-paying customers? The moment that you can answer this question, is the moment I’ll tell you GW2 is P2W.

Don’t be patronizing, I’m not an idiot.

You seem to be defining ‘P2W’ as a way for people to purchase exclusive items that is not otherwise obtainable by those who don’t. That is not necessarily true. Paying to win can also mean the person spending money is able to obtain said item faster or easier than someone who doesn’t. Basically it eliminates the time it takes for someone to obtain some end-game object, accelerating them to the ‘winning’ status.

So, by your definition of P2W, I cannot give you any example in this game because there aren’t any since gems can be bought with in-game currency. But if you would stop being so narrow-minded and open up to different interpretations of the phrase, maybe you can see where a lot of people are coming from when they say the gem store is P2W.

Edit:
I’ll give you a short and simple scenario:
There are two people, Jane and Joe.
Joe started to play the game and decided he didn’t want to spend a single penny on gear, so he farmed currency for the next 3 months to buy his gear.
Jane started to play the game and decided it took too long to farm the currency, so she bought $100 worth of in-game currency and bought the SAME gear.

Jane just paid to win.

you have a strange definition of “win.” convenience, saving time, and and cosmetics are not winning. the only context in which the term “pay to win” is even relevant is in regard to stats.

Katastrofi.5816:

There is no ‘true’ meaning of paying to win. You’re not wrong, but neither is my interpretation of the meaning.

But since you’re clearly not willing to accept any other form of argument, g’day.

What you and a lot of people here call P2W is just pay to save maybe a little bit time.
That is also called just Quality of Life (QoL) .. and that is of course a thing that they put in the Shop since those are things that DON’T give you advantage in a fight against other players.

If pay to save time is also P2W, then even buying kitten Drive is P2W because with that SSD you have better chance in the Champ Train to get a hit on the Troll, so you make more money in the same time .. ergo : SSD is P2W.

Or buying a Bankslot or Bagslot .. saves time because you don’t have to clean your invent so often .. so a simple Bagslot is alredy P2W.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

No, the true and proper meaning of the term “P2W” is what I posted. Your “interpretation” of P2W is your own, thus is wrong. Sorta like saying salvaging an Exotic Jewel to get more mats back than what you put in isn’t an exploit, yet Anet sees it differently.

I get that over time, a word or term’s true meaning can evolve. But the original and intended meaning of the “P2W” term is “Paying to have an advantage over non-paying customers, thus winning”.

and vip is paying to have an advantage over non paying customers.
first lets look at the concept of VIP, its basically saying you are more important than some one else and get special benefits.

The advantages VIP offers are:
teleport to player
ressurection in battle
more skill points, IE more skills. In china they will have less skill point quests, you will have to be VIP to get access to some.
dont know what the rest means, like
convienent trading?

but yeah, its straight up paying to have an advantage over other players, it cant really be debated, you will have easier times farming, more skill points, special titles.

http://i.imgur.com/qZCwB0m.png

now you could debate whether pay to win is cool or not, thats a different debate though.

The thing i find interesting is how people who play in NA, basically are hoping that GW2 can juice asia for as much money as possible so they can reap the benefits. I mean this is capitalism, so i guess it doesnt matter, but people who would go crazy if this type of stuff was over here, are basically like, go get em anet, and make me some new shoes with that china money.

Beldin.5498:

Katastrofi.5816:

There is no ‘true’ meaning of paying to win. You’re not wrong, but neither is my interpretation of the meaning.

But since you’re clearly not willing to accept any other form of argument, g’day.

What you and a lot of people here call P2W is just pay to save maybe a little bit time.
That is also called just Quality of Life (QoL) .. and that is of course a thing that they put in the Shop since those are things that DON’T give you advantage in a fight against other players.

If pay to save time is also P2W, then even buying kitten Drive is P2W because with that SSD you have better chance in the Champ Train to get a hit on the Troll, so you make more money in the same time .. ergo : SSD is P2W.

Or buying a Bankslot or Bagslot .. saves time because you don’t have to clean your invent so often .. so a simple Bagslot is alredy P2W.

pay to win is actually infact related to time investment. Its a classic tactic of pay to win games to have items that take 1000s of hours to get through normal play, or you can get em from the store for 5 bucks.

and keep in mind they slowed down leveling drastically in the chinese version, and they reduced the number of skill point quests, this means, most players will be needing skill points to have access to more skills. In comes VIP with more access to skill points IE more options in battle IE winning.

phys.7689:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

No, the true and proper meaning of the term “P2W” is what I posted. Your “interpretation” of P2W is your own, thus is wrong. Sorta like saying salvaging an Exotic Jewel to get more mats back than what you put in isn’t an exploit, yet Anet sees it differently.

I get that over time, a word or term’s true meaning can evolve. But the original and intended meaning of the “P2W” term is “Paying to have an advantage over non-paying customers, thus winning”.

and vip is paying to have an advantage over non paying customers.
first lets look at the concept of VIP, its basically saying you are more important than some one else and get special benefits.

The advantages VIP offers are:
teleport to player
ressurection in battle
more skill points, IE more skills. In china they will have less skill point quests, you will have to be VIP to get access to some.
dont know what the rest means, like
convienent trading?

but yeah, its straight up paying to have an advantage over other players, it cant really be debated, you will have easier times farming, more skill points, special titles.

http://i.imgur.com/qZCwB0m.png

now you could debate whether pay to win is cool or not, thats a different debate though.

The thing i find interesting is how people who play in NA, basically are hoping that GW2 can juice asia for as much money as possible so they can reap the benefits. I mean this is capitalism, so i guess it doesnt matter, but people who would go crazy if this type of stuff was over here, are basically like, go get em anet, and make me some new shoes with that china money.

That’s true of the VIP system. A couple of things to clarify.

1) Will the Chinese version allow Gold to Gem exchanges? If so, non-paying customers can still become VIPs.

2) In general, GW2 is not a P2W game. That doesn’t mean they can’t alter their microtransactions to be more like one. Remember, in Asian gaming cultures, P2W is acceptable and desired. Having a Buy to Play game with a microtransaction store is unique. Not many games use this type of strategy in Asia, let along China. Most times it’s a Free to Play game with a heavy money store, or a subscription game with money store. GW2-China is probably trying to appeal to both crowds.

Beldin.5498:

Katastrofi.5816:

There is no ‘true’ meaning of paying to win. You’re not wrong, but neither is my interpretation of the meaning.

But since you’re clearly not willing to accept any other form of argument, g’day.

What you and a lot of people here call P2W is just pay to save maybe a little bit time.
That is also called just Quality of Life (QoL) .. and that is of course a thing that they put in the Shop since those are things that DON’T give you advantage in a fight against other players.

If pay to save time is also P2W, then even buying kitten Drive is P2W because with that SSD you have better chance in the Champ Train to get a hit on the Troll, so you make more money in the same time .. ergo : SSD is P2W.

Or buying a Bankslot or Bagslot .. saves time because you don’t have to clean your invent so often .. so a simple Bagslot is alredy P2W.

Ummm… What?

It’s not entirely about time. It’s about effort. It’s about work. There is absolutely no deniability in the fact that, for a game centralized around gear in the end-game, if someone bought every piece of gear with real currency while skipping all the necessary steps (which, yes, includes some time factor) to obtain them through the designed means, they paid to win.

Yes, it’s a QoL thing. But that doesn’t mean it isn’t P2W as well.

Katastrofi.5816:

Ummm… What?

It’s not entirely about time. It’s about effort. It’s about work. There is absolutely no deniability in the fact that, for a game centralized around gear in the end-game, if someone bought every piece of gear with real currency while skipping all the necessary steps (which, yes, includes some time factor) to obtain them through the designed means, they paid to win.

Yes, it’s a QoL thing. But that doesn’t mean it isn’t P2W as well.

Wrong again. If two different types of players have the same gear, one paid and one didn’t, it’s not P2W. I’ll explain it one more time to you:

P2W means Paying to Win. That means you pay real money to have exclusive access to statistically better gear than a non-paying player.

Paying $500 to get the same gear that someone got for free is not P2W, but rather Pay for Convenience.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Wrong again. If two different types of players have the same gear, one paid and one didn’t, it’s not P2W. I’ll explain it one more time to you:

P2W means Paying to Win. That means you pay real money to have exclusive access to statistically better gear than a non-paying player.

Paying $500 to get the same gear that someone got for free is not P2W, but rather Pay for Convenience.

I am not saying you’re wrong. I utterly agree with what you’re saying about P2W. But I’m trying to expand on that because its meaning, regardless of it being my definition or not, has enveloped the current general F2P game design. I don’t care what the ‘original’ meaning of the concept is. I don’t wanna get all philosophical with you but since you brought it up I’ll throw a quick 2-cents in. If people took the original idea of everything we have in this world and refuse to expand upon it… to grow it and mold it, we would be… Nowhere. You saying I’m wrong because of how I’m interpreting a term is really ignorant. I don’t need to be (nor am I) absolutely correct, but what I have described has merit. Don’t be so dense and completely dismiss my opinion because you’re so stuck on the original meaning of the phrase.

This is dumb. Have a good one.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Katastrofi.5816:

Ummm… What?

It’s not entirely about time. It’s about effort. It’s about work. There is absolutely no deniability in the fact that, for a game centralized around gear in the end-game, if someone bought every piece of gear with real currency while skipping all the necessary steps (which, yes, includes some time factor) to obtain them through the designed means, they paid to win.

Yes, it’s a QoL thing. But that doesn’t mean it isn’t P2W as well.

Wrong again. If two different types of players have the same gear, one paid and one didn’t, it’s not P2W. I’ll explain it one more time to you:

P2W means Paying to Win. That means you pay real money to have exclusive access to statistically better gear than a non-paying player.

Paying $500 to get the same gear that someone got for free is not P2W, but rather Pay for Convenience.

i dont think pay to win has to be exclusive.

It just means you can pay to win. If getting the best gear is winning, and people can buy the gear, they have payed to win. the fact that others can work hard to win doesnt change that.

the fact that others can work hard to achieve the same thing doesnt take away the fact you can win with money, in fact it probably makes it more valuable.

lets take boxing, once one guy can buy the championship through bribery, that essentially becomes pay to win, no matter if others can do it through hard work.

Katastrofi.5816:

Jane just paid to win.

Only if you define winning as saving time.

phys.7689:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Katastrofi.5816:

Ummm… What?

It’s not entirely about time. It’s about effort. It’s about work. There is absolutely no deniability in the fact that, for a game centralized around gear in the end-game, if someone bought every piece of gear with real currency while skipping all the necessary steps (which, yes, includes some time factor) to obtain them through the designed means, they paid to win.

Yes, it’s a QoL thing. But that doesn’t mean it isn’t P2W as well.

Wrong again. If two different types of players have the same gear, one paid and one didn’t, it’s not P2W. I’ll explain it one more time to you:

P2W means Paying to Win. That means you pay real money to have exclusive access to statistically better gear than a non-paying player.

Paying $500 to get the same gear that someone got for free is not P2W, but rather Pay for Convenience.

i dont think pay to win has to be exclusive.

It just means you can pay to win. If getting the best gear is winning, and people can buy the gear, they have payed to win. the fact that others can work hard to win doesnt change that.

the fact that others can work hard to achieve the same thing doesnt take away the fact you can win with money, in fact it probably makes it more valuable.

lets take boxing, once one guy can buy the championship through bribery, that essentially becomes pay to win, no matter if others can do it through hard work.

What I’ve been trying to explain is that the original intent of the term Pay to Win is that just, paying to win. In Asia, a gamer who can buy a +9999 damage sword with real money does not want the non-paying gamer to have access to the same thing. Thus the reason why they’re willing to spend real money to get the best gear – to have that advantage over other players.

Expanding on my example, if two players bought the +9999 damage sword, it then becomes a competition to see who can have the better gear beyond the sword. The players will then spend more money on vanity skins, maybe +9999 defense armor, exclusive mounts for someone who spent over $5,000, etc. This mindset is why you see players putting up $16,000 for a single virtual sword. Status symbols are items that let you “pwn” others and stand out.

When people start using the term “P2W” more freely, the negative connotations associated with it then expand beyond what it was originally. Case in point, the “N” word evolved from a word, to a slang, to a racial slur. So what was once a normal word of Latin origin that was an adjective for the color “black”, is now frowned upon. So forgive me when I bring up debates over the use of this term, because when the interpretation of “P2W” gets so broad, every single game with a microtransaction store can then be called one.

Pay to win is not a real thing, there is no dictionary definition of it.
Its just common sense to use it in relation to PvP games that trough money give player and edge since any of the other strange philosohical meaning make no sense.
Maybe because a wrong perception of the world many of you seems to don’t realize that everything can be bought with money, expecially everything related to a game.
Just name an online game and you will see that if a store is not present, if every item is account bound, if you can’t even trade a rocks, people will just sell account.
Its risky sometimes, sure. But money can buy another account, until the transaction is fine.
And that’s the extreme case scenario. You will see a lot of cash→in game money store site for every online game ever made.
So every game is P2 win in the strange made-up way some people described it on this thread.
I’m sorry that you guys dream of a perfect world where you can play a game without the real world make a difference inside the virtual world itself, this isnt gonna happen. The very fact that you can play X hours instead of Y hours depends on the real world itself.
With the real definition instead you can clearly state the difference between a game that give a player an advantage versus the other player directly in the pvp part of it.
And GW2 for sure is not one of them.

more about this on reddit http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/209jqk/10images_show_how_great_the_china_gw2_is_with_eng/

the linked album since some people are just too lazy http://imgur.com/a/k9GA4#0

Pie Flavor.1647:

kokiman.2364:

Win what?               

win guild missions by being able to port to a friend when you found the objective of a guild bounty for example

HA-HA-HA-HA
Seriously?….Is this what you call pay to win? Who excactly do you win over?
I’m curious. Humour me.

insaneseagull.7063:

Pie Flavor.1647:

kokiman.2364:

Win what?               

win guild missions by being able to port to a friend when you found the objective of a guild bounty for example

HA-HA-HA-HA
Seriously?….Is this what you call pay to win? Who excactly do you win over?
I’m curious. Humour me.

pay to win is different for everyone. if its the goal to look pretty (horizontal progression) cosmetics like in GW2 are pay to win too.

Haha.. wow. This really is impressive. I wonder if this kitten will get media attention at one point, monetizing in video games is going borderline criminal.

Malediktus.9250:

insaneseagull.7063:

Pie Flavor.1647:

kokiman.2364:

Win what?               

win guild missions by being able to port to a friend when you found the objective of a guild bounty for example

HA-HA-HA-HA
Seriously?….Is this what you call pay to win? Who excactly do you win over?
I’m curious. Humour me.

pay to win is different for everyone. if its the goal to look pretty (horizontal progression) cosmetics like in GW2 are pay to win too.

That’s what I touched on. People have their own interpretations of the term “P2W”, but it keeps getting skewed from the original idea of “Paying to Win a game”. So if people can generalize anything they want as P2W, you lose focus on what that term really means.

Watered down “P2W” term:

-A racing game is P2W if you buy the special steering wheel controller.
-Final Fantasy is a P2W game if you buy the one handed controller (which I did have), so you can relax and control the game without using 2 hands.
-A fighting game is P2W if you buy the arcade controller (which I had as well).
-GW2 is P2W because you can buy shiny armors.

True “P2W” term:

-Buy a legendary greatsword with +9999 damage that can be held with one hand, and gated from players who don’t pay real money for it.
-Buy wings so you can fly in PvP, but locked behind a real money store.
-Buy exclusive and powerful Mega-Elite skills that’s only available for real money.
-Buy a racing car with 6 gears and a top speed of 150 mph, while non-paying players have cars with 4 gears and a top speed of 100 mph.

See the difference?

DiamondMeteor.8345:

Haha.. wow. This really is impressive. I wonder if this kitten will get media attention at one point, monetizing in video games is going borderline criminal.

It’s criminal? Care to explain? It’s paying for access to entertainment. Is it criminal when you go see a movie or a concert?

an example of pay to win would be that you have to buy your elite skill SLOT for 10$. or you pay 50$ to unlock Fiery Greatsword as a permanent equip-able weapon for your mesmer in sPvP. or 100$ to buy a Atlas 100-ton mech (from battletech universe) to be able to three-shot Tequatl.

John Smith.4610:

Pie Flavor.1647:

And why do they have more disposable income? I thought the entire concept of First World meant that people on the First World would have more disposable income, yet again, a “statistic” not backed by any source

Economic Sidebar: While I don’t know about “First World” as a concept, there are several official ways in which economic development is measured.

continue on.

from the wikipedia:

During the Cold War, the First World was the United States and its allies, the Second World was the Soviet Union and its allies, and the Third World was the neutral and nonaligned countries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_World
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_World
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_World

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cold_War_alliances_mid-1975.svg

after the Cold War ended (basically when the Berlin Wall fell) the terms could almost only refer to their economic connotations. and third World basicly took on the meaning of “poor” or “underdeveloped” nations, since they weren’t the world’s “superpowers.”

Forgotten Legend.9281:

100$ to buy a Atlas 100-ton mech (from battletech universe) to be able to three-shot Tequatl.

Why don’t I just bring my whole ’Mech regiment and kill all the pesky dragons???

Assault ’Mechs
Heavy ’Mechs
Medium ’Mechs
Light ’Mechs

Inner Sphere and Clan….

You get the idea

The way I’ve always seen P2W is literally needing to buy X to achieve Z. The common form of this I’ve seen is having to buy the upper tier skills past level 50 that actually do damage to level 85 enemies. ***cough***Forsaken World***cough***

What race do you think would use Battlemechs in GW2? LOL

The whole Teleport System is also already P2W .. you pay to be faster at your target.

Obtena.7952:

DiamondMeteor.8345:

Haha.. wow. This really is impressive. I wonder if this kitten will get media attention at one point, monetizing in video games is going borderline criminal.

It’s criminal? Care to explain? It’s paying for access to entertainment. Is it criminal when you go see a movie or a concert?

He said BORDERLINE. This is different from actually being Criminal.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

No, the true and proper meaning of the term “P2W” is what I posted. Your “interpretation” of P2W is your own, thus is wrong. Sorta like saying salvaging an Exotic Jewel to get more mats back than what you put in isn’t an exploit, yet Anet sees it differently.

I get that over time, a word or term’s true meaning can evolve. But the original and intended meaning of the “P2W” term is “Paying to have an advantage over non-paying customers, thus winning”.

Example 1:

So I can’t play enough to get ascended gear because I don’t have enough time. The only way for me to obtain it is to buy it with real money.

Thus by your definition GW2 is P2W because the only way for me to obtain statistically superior gear is to pay real money.

Example 2: Joe buys +100 sword of greatness in P2W game 27. Jane kills him with +10 fail sword that is the highest obtainable in game because she has significantly more skill than Joe. This game by your definition is not P2W anymore since Joe didn’t actually win by paying.

Your definition needs some reworking it seems. Time is valuable and is certainly considered a winning difference to many people.

Beldin.5498:

The whole Teleport System is also already P2W .. you pay to be faster at your target.

This teleport system is on a massive cooldown,8 hours and 1 hour. Have you ever heard about waypoints? They are these special thingys which teleport you everywhere in the world,and if your friend isn’t excactly on the point,it’ll take you maybe 5 minutes max to get to him.
If not they have removed waypoints in the chinese version?….

Neural.1824:

Obtena.7952:

DiamondMeteor.8345:

Haha.. wow. This really is impressive. I wonder if this kitten will get media attention at one point, monetizing in video games is going borderline criminal.

It’s criminal? Care to explain? It’s paying for access to entertainment. Is it criminal when you go see a movie or a concert?

He said BORDERLINE. This is different from actually being Criminal.

It’s not borderline either … is it borderline criminal to pay to see a movie or concert? Qualifying a ridiculous statement like that doesn’t make it a less ridiculous statement.

Obtena.7952:

Neural.1824:

Obtena.7952:

DiamondMeteor.8345:

Haha.. wow. This really is impressive. I wonder if this kitten will get media attention at one point, monetizing in video games is going borderline criminal.

It’s criminal? Care to explain? It’s paying for access to entertainment. Is it criminal when you go see a movie or a concert?

He said BORDERLINE. This is different from actually being Criminal.

It’s not borderline either … is it borderline criminal to pay to see a movie or concert? Qualifying a ridiculous statement like that doesn’t make it a less ridiculous statement.

paying for a movie would be equivalent to paying the $30 to buy a GW2 accounts.

Then paying extra just to have audio on the movie, paying extra to be able to swap seats in the middle of the movie without anyone able to complain about it, paying extra to have a higher resolution of the movie that other people cannot enjoy would be the equivalent to paying for VIP in this case.

Pie Flavor.1647:

Obtena.7952:

Neural.1824:

Obtena.7952:

DiamondMeteor.8345:

Haha.. wow. This really is impressive. I wonder if this kitten will get media attention at one point, monetizing in video games is going borderline criminal.

It’s criminal? Care to explain? It’s paying for access to entertainment. Is it criminal when you go see a movie or a concert?

He said BORDERLINE. This is different from actually being Criminal.

It’s not borderline either … is it borderline criminal to pay to see a movie or concert? Qualifying a ridiculous statement like that doesn’t make it a less ridiculous statement.

paying for a movie would be equivalent to paying the $30 to buy a GW2 accounts.

Then paying extra just to have audio on the movie, paying extra to be able to swap seats in the middle of the movie without anyone able to complain about it, paying extra to have a higher resolution of the movie that other people cannot enjoy would be the equivalent to paying for VIP in this case.

So you are comparing it to airlines. I understand your point now.

“the chinese gem store is literally pay2win”

this is different from the western gem store how?
last i checked they are making thousands of dollars off people converting $$$ to buy legendary weapons, the permanent BIS items.

why do you think we will never see the scavenger hunt they talked about despite the prices of precursors raising past the level they said they wanted them to be at?

Pie Flavor.1647:

Obtena.7952:

Neural.1824:

Obtena.7952:

DiamondMeteor.8345:

Haha.. wow. This really is impressive. I wonder if this kitten will get media attention at one point, monetizing in video games is going borderline criminal.

It’s criminal? Care to explain? It’s paying for access to entertainment. Is it criminal when you go see a movie or a concert?

He said BORDERLINE. This is different from actually being Criminal.

It’s not borderline either … is it borderline criminal to pay to see a movie or concert? Qualifying a ridiculous statement like that doesn’t make it a less ridiculous statement.

paying for a movie would be equivalent to paying the $30 to buy a GW2 accounts.

Then paying extra just to have audio on the movie, paying extra to be able to swap seats in the middle of the movie without anyone able to complain about it, paying extra to have a higher resolution of the movie that other people cannot enjoy would be the equivalent to paying for VIP in this case.

That’s a flawed example. Audio and choice of a seat are not OPTIONS when you go to the movie, they are part of the movie purchase. Gemstore IS an option. You can certainly play GW2 without buying stuff from it. If you want a more valid comparison, the gemstore is like candy and popcorn.

The stuff in gemstore is added entertainment value that you can buy with gold or RL money. P2W or not, EVERYONE has access to buy stuff in there and it’s not like the example you cite at all. Again, you are skirting the issue … why does anyone in NA care if some dude in China can warp or ress? Where is the win in that scenario when we don’t compete with them? Nonsense.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Example 1:

So I can’t play enough to get ascended gear because I don’t have enough time. The only way for me to obtain it is to buy it with real money.

Thus by your definition GW2 is P2W because the only way for me to obtain statistically superior gear is to pay real money.

Example 2: Joe buys +100 sword of greatness in P2W game 27. Jane kills him with +10 fail sword that is the highest obtainable in game because she has significantly more skill than Joe. This game by your definition is not P2W anymore since Joe didn’t actually win by paying.

Your definition needs some reworking it seems. Time is valuable and is certainly considered a winning difference to many people.

All your first example is wrong. You can’t buy Ascended gear outright, because some mats are Account Bound. Plus, just because you don’t have time to play, doesn’t mean anything. P2W means paying to have an advantage of non-paying. Since non-paying players are able to get Ascended gear without spending any real money, your example is moot. It’s like saying “The sky is blue because cake is delicious.” One does not relate to another.

Your second example is spot on. Buying a sword that has better stats than what’s available in game is P2W. You touched up on the skill of the person buying the sword, which makes him a fail P2Wer. That’s two separate issues.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Example 1:

So I can’t play enough to get ascended gear because I don’t have enough time. The only way for me to obtain it is to buy it with real money.

Thus by your definition GW2 is P2W because the only way for me to obtain statistically superior gear is to pay real money.

Example 2: Joe buys +100 sword of greatness in P2W game 27. Jane kills him with +10 fail sword that is the highest obtainable in game because she has significantly more skill than Joe. This game by your definition is not P2W anymore since Joe didn’t actually win by paying.

Your definition needs some reworking it seems. Time is valuable and is certainly considered a winning difference to many people.

All your first example is wrong. You can’t buy Ascended gear outright, because some mats are Account Bound. Plus, just because you don’t have time to play, doesn’t mean anything. P2W means paying to have an advantage of non-paying. Since non-paying players are able to get Ascended gear without spending any real money, your example is moot. It’s like saying “The sky is blue because cake is delicious.” One does not relate to another.

Your second example is spot on. Buying a sword that has better stats than what’s available in game is P2W. You touched up on the skill of the person buying the sword, which makes him a fail P2Wer. That’s two separate issues.

In his or her 1st example the problem was time. Time gates mean a lot when you cannot buy around them, yet next to nothing when you can.

The analogy about the sky and cake is way off….btw, since time completely relates to the matter at hand.

Obtena.7952:

Again, you are skirting the issue … why does anyone in NA care if some dude in China can warp or ress? Where is the win in that scenario when we don’t compete with them? Nonsense.

For me it’s more about Anet moving closer and closer to something which lured many players to the GW franchise from other games. Okay so they won’t have it here (yet), but they are definitely showing the are more than willing to add it.

It’s funny how when someone asks “win what” nobody replies But you guys DO know how to scratch your fingers in the forum

Shadow Blade.1324

why do you think we will never see the scavenger hunt they talked about despite the prices of precursors raising past the level they said they wanted them to be at?

Pre Cursor prices have been stable for over 6 months now and I dont remember anybody from Anet stating that they think they are overpriced in the last 6 months.

Legendaries in general got more expensive in the last 6 months, that is true. But that is due to the ingredients for the gifts in general rising in price, not because of precursors.

Remember not to click on pay2win Topics

Also I don’t really care about the chinese Version. It is totally normal that products are adjusted to the local market, even Cola doesn’t taste exactly the same in in eastern countries eg.

Mike.5091:

Remember not to click on pay2win Topics

Also I don’t really care about the chinese Version. It is totally normal that products are adjusted to the local market, even Cola doesn’t taste exactly the same in in eastern countries eg.

Fanta Orange is also yellow in some countries and orange color in others.