Guild Wars 2

So.. I know that this only pertains to a few states but the new billing system charges taxes on gem purchases, which imo is complete BS because it’s an artificial currency that game be created out of thin air, I know that several states change to taxing online purchases through sites like Amazon.com or Newegg, but that is for actually PHYSICAL goods, not something that can be mass produced by coding, this seems very ludicrous to me. I have a feeling this may only support the gold sellers in their cause and also cause many people to just say the hell with buying gems altogether.

Opinions? Please ones that don’t thinking I’m whining and looking down their nose at me, because I’m not, but this does seem like a legitimate issue in my eyes.

As an accountant I would have to agree with you in that you’re not buying a good. To me, it’s more like a gift card purchase, which, at least where I live, are not taxable. Maybe you can bring it up with your local political or tax office. I think it’s hard to comment other than that since states (and countries) have differing laws.

I bought a digital software code from Amazon and was charged tax, so I don’t think there’s a distinction between physical and digital goods. Also there is quite a bit of legalese explaining that Gems aren’t currency due to regulatory issues, so I don’t think they fall under gift card terms. Thank your government heroes for creating a system where common sense is no substitute for a law degree.

No, you’re making a PURCHASE. Doesn’t matter what you’re buying, as long as the transaction is being done with real money.

Agreed, you are buying a good. If I went to the Target and bought a Gem Card it’s taxed. Forget about the EU where the tax is already built into the price.

Behellagh.1468:

Agreed, you are buying a good. If I went to the Target and bought a Gem Card it’s taxed. Forget about the EU where the tax is already built into the price.

I buy Gem Cards all the time and they’re never taxed. The purchase is always exactly $25.

Electro.4173:

Behellagh.1468:

Agreed, you are buying a good. If I went to the Target and bought a Gem Card it’s taxed. Forget about the EU where the tax is already built into the price.

I buy Gem Cards all the time and they’re never taxed. The purchase is always exactly $25.

And what state do you live in and what brick and mortar store do you buy them at.

Electro.4173:

Behellagh.1468:

Agreed, you are buying a good. If I went to the Target and bought a Gem Card it’s taxed. Forget about the EU where the tax is already built into the price.

I buy Gem Cards all the time and they’re never taxed. The purchase is always exactly $25.

you should offer to have people send you money, buy gem cards, then send them to them and all they pay is postage and a small tip.

Behellagh.1468:

Electro.4173:

Behellagh.1468:

Agreed, you are buying a good. If I went to the Target and bought a Gem Card it’s taxed. Forget about the EU where the tax is already built into the price.

I buy Gem Cards all the time and they’re never taxed. The purchase is always exactly $25.

And what state do you live in and what brick and mortar store do you buy them at.

I live in New Jersey, and have bought Gem Cards at Target and Best Buy. No sales tax. (Same goes for when you buy gift cards at random stores)

Ok, wait so If I would buy gems for lets say 50 euro. My bank account would get charged for more than that?

If so, I’ll never buy any ever again. It clearly states 50 in the cash shop.

Behellagh.1468:

Electro.4173:

Behellagh.1468:

Agreed, you are buying a good. If I went to the Target and bought a Gem Card it’s taxed. Forget about the EU where the tax is already built into the price.

I buy Gem Cards all the time and they’re never taxed. The purchase is always exactly $25.

And what state do you live in and what brick and mortar store do you buy them at.

Live in Colorado. Have bought them at Wal Mart, Target, and Best Buy.

It’s strange. If I try to order a gem card from Amazon, they want to charge me tax, and I’ve always been charged tax on the cash shop proxy currency purchases regardless of the game (but I live in Texas, and NCSoft and EA have offices here). I’ll have to go see if I buy from a local brick and mortar if I get charged tax on a gem card. I’m even charged tax on subscription fees for games, so I guess I never expected not to be taxed.

I live in a state with no income tax, so I really can’t begrudge them the sales tax. I do grumble a bit about my property taxes though

Okay, different states, different tax laws (gift cards, internet/mail order purchases). However if ANet is charging sales tax when it doesn’t have to, something smells.

lets not forget that anet can make gems out of thin air (not really a product when there’s an unlimited supply) , it’s likely that if they have to they just take a cut from what your already paying.

lets say you buy $10 worth of gems, taxes on that would be 60cents. so anet bites the bullet so to speak and gives 60cents to whatever the tax goes to and makes $9.40 on their limitless product

so paying money and going to the zoo is not real to you ?
what is real ?
define real !
if buy real you mean what you can see, touch, hear then real is just impulses going to your brain

Behellagh.1468:

Okay, different states, different tax laws (gift cards, internet/mail order purchases). However if ANet is charging sales tax when it doesn’t have to, something smells.

Just because a company doesn’t collect it doesn’t mean it isn’t owed. There are 45 states that have a use tax law that requires you to file forms to pay your state sales tax on out of state purchases. It’s basically unenforceable for small purchases, so the Senate passed a bill (The Marketplace Fairness Act of 2013) that requires companies to collect sales tax even for states where they have no business presence. I don’t think it’s made it through the House yet though and govtrack.us gives it a 28% chance of being enacted.

I think a lot of on-line retailers just set up their systems to collect the sales tax regardless because it’s easier than only collecting it for certain states, and that way they’re prepared for when they have to collect it by law. Too many states are too strapped for cash for them to let folks get away with not paying their taxes, even if it means forcing companies who have no vested interest in that state to bear the burden of enforcing their tax laws.

Svetli.4276:

so paying money and going to the zoo is not real to you ?
what is real ?
define real !
if buy real you mean what you can see, touch, hear then real is just impulses going to your brain

They don’t tax you to go to the zoo where I live. Hahaha.

Either way it makes no sense to me that they are taxing for artificial goods. When I purchase on Amazon.com I do not get taxed, though I do know you are “suppose” to count it on your year end taxes. To me, this is all a sham, they weren’t previously taxing us, and no other game I have played with an in-game store taxes, because it is virtual goods, not physical goods, there is no law that says to tax for virtual goods as far as I know.

But it’s not law yet (3rd time’s the charm?).

Also the USSC tossed the New York vs Amazon 3rd party’s tax case back to the circuit court Monday without comment.

Behellagh.1468:

But it’s not law yet (3rd time’s the charm?).

Also the USSC tossed the New York vs Amazon 3rd party’s tax case back to the circuit court Monday without comment.

I hadn’t heard it got tossed back – that’s good news. I doubt they’re going to let it go though.

Pandeh.5248:

Ok, wait so If I would buy gems for lets say 50 euro. My bank account would get charged for more than that?

If so, I’ll never buy any ever again. It clearly states 50 in the cash shop.

Considering you mention euro, I presume you live in Europe. The European price already includes taxes. So, if it says 50 euro, you pay 50 euro.

In the US, taxes are based on where you live. Somebody in one state could pay more taxes than somebody from another state. So, all prices there are excluding VAT. The VAT is then added afterwards.

Behellagh.1468:

Electro.4173:

Behellagh.1468:

Agreed, you are buying a good. If I went to the Target and bought a Gem Card it’s taxed. Forget about the EU where the tax is already built into the price.

I buy Gem Cards all the time and they’re never taxed. The purchase is always exactly $25.

And what state do you live in and what brick and mortar store do you buy them at.

I work in a store that sells a variety of those game cards, for gw2, wow, facebook, Xbox, Nintendo, ps, and many others. Those cards are never taxed.

rhapsody.3615:

Behellagh.1468:

Electro.4173:

Behellagh.1468:

Agreed, you are buying a good. If I went to the Target and bought a Gem Card it’s taxed. Forget about the EU where the tax is already built into the price.

I buy Gem Cards all the time and they’re never taxed. The purchase is always exactly $25.

And what state do you live in and what brick and mortar store do you buy them at.

I work in a store that sells a variety of those game cards, for gw2, wow, facebook, Xbox, Nintendo, ps, and many others. Those cards are never taxed.

Agreed. When I walk into Gamestop or EB games to purchase a Gem Card or purchase one from Amazon.com, it is NEVER taxed, I assume it’s because it is virtual currency, yet the Gem Store itself wants certain states to pay tax now? Continuing to lose faith in NCsoft and ANet’s ethics anymore.

rhapsody.3615:

I work in a store that sells a variety of those game cards, for gw2, wow, facebook, Xbox, Nintendo, ps, and many others. Those cards are never taxed.

So I have this compulsion to try to figure out stuff that doesn’t make sense to me, and my digging around lead me to these tidbits…

Tax Policy News

Store Gift Cards and Gift Certificates
No sales tax is due on the sale of a gift card. The actual sale of gift cards is not subject to Texas sales, use or mixed beverage taxes since the card represents an intangible – the “right” to a future purchase. Instead, tax is calculated when a card is redeemed.

But then there are these definitions in the tax code

Tax code

Sec. 151.009. “TANGIBLE PERSONAL PROPERTY” “Tangible personal property” means personal property that can be seen, weighed, measured, felt, or touched or that is perceptible to the senses in any other manner, and, for the purposes of this chapter, the term includes a computer program and a telephone prepaid calling card.

Sec. 151.010. TAXABLE ITEM. “Taxable item” means tangible personal property and taxable services. Except as otherwise provided by this chapter, the sale or use of a taxable item in electronic form instead of on physical media does not alter the item’s tax status.

It looks to me like the law carved out a special tax exempt status for gift cards (other than pre-paid phone cards) that doesn’t apply when buying gems directly. Of course I’m not a lawyer, I just like to play one on the Internet :P

Any politician that promises me that there will be fewer laws when they leave office than when they entered will have my vote, no matter what other crazy ideas they might have.

I don’t want to call them a shady business because that’d be insulting them and I’d get infracted. I also don’t want to ask for an explanation because that’d be calling them out which I’d get infracted for.

So did a new law just go into place or do they want more money?

Teege.4623:

So did a new law just go into place or do they want more money?

Who do you mean by “they”? ANet doesn’t get to keep the tax it collects. The company has to forward it on to the state government. It probably costs them money to collect that tax, keep track of it, and forward it on to the appropriate place with the appropriate forms filled out.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/account/Sales-Tax-for-buying-gems/3356869

Oh well. Won’t be getting anymore of my money that’s for sure. Makes no sense to me why I can walk into Gamestop or purchase ONLINE at Amazon.com and not be taxed for it, yet trying to do it directly charges me a tax. Good Game, ANet.

Aviate.9457:

Oh well. Won’t be getting anymore of my money that’s for sure. Makes no sense to me why I can walk into Gamestop or purchase ONLINE at Amazon.com and not be taxed for it, yet trying to do it directly charges me a tax. Good Game, ANet.

It’s not ANet’s fault that the tax laws are ridiculously complicated and make no sense. Take it up with whoever it was you sent to your state legislature.

You know, every time someone posts that they’re not spending any more money on this game, Anet lays off a developer. And two weeks before Xmas, too, now how is the poor fellow going to afford Tiny Tim’s medicine? Don’t be a Scrooge.

Pandemoniac.4739:

rhapsody.3615:

I work in a store that sells a variety of those game cards, for gw2, wow, facebook, Xbox, Nintendo, ps, and many others. Those cards are never taxed.

So I have this compulsion to try to figure out stuff that doesn’t make sense to me, and my digging around lead me to these tidbits…

Tax Policy News

Store Gift Cards and Gift Certificates
No sales tax is due on the sale of a gift card. The actual sale of gift cards is not subject to Texas sales, use or mixed beverage taxes since the card represents an intangible – the “right” to a future purchase. Instead, tax is calculated when a card is redeemed.

But then there are these definitions in the tax code

Tax code

Sec. 151.009. “TANGIBLE PERSONAL PROPERTY” “Tangible personal property” means personal property that can be seen, weighed, measured, felt, or touched or that is perceptible to the senses in any other manner, and, for the purposes of this chapter, the term includes a computer program and a telephone prepaid calling card.

Sec. 151.010. TAXABLE ITEM. “Taxable item” means tangible personal property and taxable services. Except as otherwise provided by this chapter, the sale or use of a taxable item in electronic form instead of on physical media does not alter the item’s tax status.

It looks to me like the law carved out a special tax exempt status for gift cards (other than pre-paid phone cards) that doesn’t apply when buying gems directly. Of course I’m not a lawyer, I just like to play one on the Internet :P

Any politician that promises me that there will be fewer laws when they leave office than when they entered will have my vote, no matter what other crazy ideas they might have.

It’s not the gift card, it’s the “tangible” personal property part that determines taxability in many states. While software is widely considered tangible and thus would be taxed, subscriptions for example are not and thus aren’t taxed unless covered by another tax law. I don’t see why they’re classifying gems as tangible.

And, almost more importantly, I can’t imagine that Anet wants gems classified as tangible personal property due to all the other laws and regulations that affect that classification as opposed to services and/or intangibles.

As you may be aware, we changed to a new billing system last week. The system providers have fully reviewed the legal requirements related to sales tax (or its equivalent) and a charge is added to purchases in those states, provinces, regions, or countries that require taxation.

Dev quote for those too lazy to click on link above. Take your complaints to the government who taxes us not Anet who gives us free content every two weeks.

tolunart.2095:

You know, every time someone posts that they’re not spending any more money on this game, Anet lays off a developer. And two weeks before Xmas, too, now how is the poor fellow going to afford Tiny Tim’s medicine? Don’t be a Scrooge.

Thanks to your wise analogy, I went ahead and purchased another $50 worth of Gems. I’m fighting the good fight, and doing my part to keep our friends employed.

Let me assure you, as an accountant, that if a tax is being charged, it is not the company that implemented it upon themselves. Different jurisdictions have different tax laws. The state, province, territory or country imposes the taxes, not the company. The company is merely collecting on behalf of the jurisdiction. Don’t blame ANet. This will be why some of you will pay tax for gems and some will not.

ozmaniandevil.6805:

Let me assure you, as an accountant, that if a tax is being charged, it is not the company that implemented it upon themselves. Different jurisdictions have different tax laws. The state, province, territory or country imposes the taxes, not the company. The company is merely collecting on behalf of the jurisdiction. Don’t blame ANet. This will be why some of you will pay tax for gems and some will not.

You’re kidding right. I’m sure you know quite well that not all companies administer tax laws correctly. Also, it would seem quite unlikely that all these different tax jurisdictions implemented changes in there tax laws effective at the end of the first week of December 2013. So either they weren’t collecting tax they should have been previously, or they are collecting tax they shouldn’t be now, or maybe even more likely a combination of both depending on location.

Inspired.6730:

ozmaniandevil.6805:

Let me assure you, as an accountant, that if a tax is being charged, it is not the company that implemented it upon themselves. Different jurisdictions have different tax laws. The state, province, territory or country imposes the taxes, not the company. The company is merely collecting on behalf of the jurisdiction. Don’t blame ANet. This will be why some of you will pay tax for gems and some will not.

You’re kidding right. I’m sure you know quite well that not all companies administer tax laws correctly. Also, it would seem quite unlikely that all these different tax jurisdictions implemented changes in there tax laws effective at the end of the first week of December 2013. So either they weren’t collecting tax they should have been previously, or they are collecting tax they shouldn’t be now, or maybe even more likely a combination of both depending on location.

Previously, Anet was doing the transactions. Now, they’re using a 3rd party company to process Gem purchases. So it might be more along the lines that they weren’t collecting taxes, but still paying them to the government. Meaning, they would take a small loss off the top of each Gem sale.

Inspired.6730:

It’s not the gift card, it’s the “tangible” personal property part that determines taxability in many states. While software is widely considered tangible and thus would be taxed, subscriptions for example are not and thus aren’t taxed unless covered by another tax law. I don’t see why they’re classifying gems as tangible.

Well I quoted the Texas code to show how stupidly complicated it is. The taxable item clauses go out of their way to say that digital items are still taxable (there’s a whole list of services that are/aren’t taxable also), there’s a clause that only talks about gift cards and how they’re not taxable (unless they’re a pre-paid telephone card), and so on.

My point is that ANet has nothing to do with any of this – their lawyers dug through all this crap for all the states and figured out what they had to do to comply with the law. There’s nothing shady or wrong about that – the folks you should be miffed at are the politicians who came up with this mess. I’m sure that ANet would rather not have to deal with collecting tax.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Inspired.6730:

ozmaniandevil.6805:

Let me assure you, as an accountant, that if a tax is being charged, it is not the company that implemented it upon themselves. Different jurisdictions have different tax laws. The state, province, territory or country imposes the taxes, not the company. The company is merely collecting on behalf of the jurisdiction. Don’t blame ANet. This will be why some of you will pay tax for gems and some will not.

You’re kidding right. I’m sure you know quite well that not all companies administer tax laws correctly. Also, it would seem quite unlikely that all these different tax jurisdictions implemented changes in there tax laws effective at the end of the first week of December 2013. So either they weren’t collecting tax they should have been previously, or they are collecting tax they shouldn’t be now, or maybe even more likely a combination of both depending on location.

Previously, Anet was doing the transactions. Now, they’re using a 3rd party company to process Gem purchases. So it might be more along the lines that they weren’t collecting taxes, but still paying them to the government. Meaning, they would take a small loss off the top of each Gem sale.

Technically then, they WERE collecting taxes, but it was included in the price of the Gems… possibly.

And yes, it is quite true that sometimes companies charge (or don’t charge) taxes in error. Here in my Province we switched from one type of consumer tax (GST) to another type (HST) and then back again after the public had a fit. I overheard several business owners saying they weren’t going to charge the new tax because they didn’t understand it. I’ve also been charged tax on something I knew for a FACT should not have tax added to it.

However, being that the companies we are dealing with through ANet and NCSoft (or 3rd party payment companies) will be public companies, they are held to a higher, stricter standard in their financial reporting, so SHOULD be collecting taxes appropriately. These aren’t mom ‘n pop shops where some owner’s wife is doing the books in her spare time.

Sometimes it’s company that charges it. I know that Gamestop charge taxes on a Gem card when I buy it from them but Bestbuy doesnt at all. It’s not consistent enough, when it comes to Online, probably a different rule scheme.

Himei.5379:

Sometimes it’s company that charges it. I know that Gamestop charge taxes on a Gem card when I buy it from them but Bestbuy doesnt at all. It’s not consistent enough, when it comes to Online, probably a different rule scheme.

If you’re getting charged sales tax on a gift card, it is most likely a mistake based on what I found poking around the Internet.

You do understand the concept of SALES taxes, right? It doesn’t matter WHAT is being sold (a haircut, a lap dance or a sports car) the fact that a PURCHASE is made requires that a percentage of that monetary exchange takes place is paid to the state (or whomever is collecting the tax).

You don’t have to be able to touch something to pay taxes on it.

Brother Grimm.5176:

You do understand the concept of SALES taxes, right? It doesn’t matter WHAT is being sold (a haircut, a lap dance or a sports car) the fact that a PURCHASE is made requires that a percentage of that monetary exchange takes place is paid to the state (or whomever is collecting the tax).

You don’t have to be able to touch something to pay taxes on it.

But there are a lot of exceptions to sales tax, which differ from state to state, let alone the policies of other countries.

For example, in my state soda and similar drinks are taxed, but fruit juice, water and tea are not. But if there is less than a certain percentage of juice, if the water or tea is flavored (raspberry tea instead of plain black or green tea), then it is taxed. Every manager, every company policy is not always correct – I’ve gone into a store to buy a plain green tea and got charged tax for it, when I explain that it’s not taxed the cashier argued with me about it.

And I work for a non-profit company, which is exempt from paying sales tax altogether, but when making a purchase for the company I need to obtain paperwork from the store first…

It gets complicated.

But the OP was stating the point of this thread on the complaint that since the item being pruchased wasn’t a tangible physical product, taxes should not apply and that’s just short sighted hog-wash (from an uninformed point of view). I was in no way implying that different states / municipalities don’t tax different things (and at different rates) or that exceptions don’t exist, just that claiming something shouldn’t be taxed because you can’t hold it in your hands is an ignorant statement.

Your statement seemed to imply that everything is taxed when sold… just pointing out that exceptions exist according to the laws of each state, not necessarily logical and not always understood.

Brother Grimm.5176:

You do understand the concept of SALES taxes, right? It doesn’t matter WHAT is being sold (a haircut, a lap dance or a sports car) the fact that a PURCHASE is made requires that a percentage of that monetary exchange takes place is paid to the state (or whomever is collecting the tax).

You don’t have to be able to touch something to pay taxes on it.

Sorry, but what you’re saying is not necessarily true. Sometimes taxes are implemented on TANGIBLE goods, sometimes on services, sometimes on both. In my province, we have both a Provincial Sales Tax (PST) which imposes a consumer tax on tangible goods, and a Goods and Services Tax (GST) which is a consumer tax imposed on goods and services. So, to give you an example, we pay GST only on legal services, but pay both taxes on a DVD purchase. In my province, gift cards are not taxed, likely because you pay the tax when you use the card to purchase a good. I can touch the card, but it’s not taxable.

You may want to refrain from making sweeping statements about something you may not fully understand.

tolunart.2095:

Brother Grimm.5176:

You do understand the concept of SALES taxes, right? It doesn’t matter WHAT is being sold (a haircut, a lap dance or a sports car) the fact that a PURCHASE is made requires that a percentage of that monetary exchange takes place is paid to the state (or whomever is collecting the tax).

You don’t have to be able to touch something to pay taxes on it.

But there are a lot of exceptions to sales tax, which differ from state to state, let alone the policies of other countries.

For example, in my state soda and similar drinks are taxed, but fruit juice, water and tea are not. But if there is less than a certain percentage of juice, if the water or tea is flavored (raspberry tea instead of plain black or green tea), then it is taxed. Every manager, every company policy is not always correct – I’ve gone into a store to buy a plain green tea and got charged tax for it, when I explain that it’s not taxed the cashier argued with me about it.

And I work for a non-profit company, which is exempt from paying sales tax altogether, but when making a purchase for the company I need to obtain paperwork from the store first…

It gets complicated.

Yes and in theory the company that is now handling the purchase of Gems in game is knowledgeable enough to know when to tax and when not to tax. Gail has posted that ANet has total confidence that this company, maybe it’s PlayNC wide, is complying to all laws that require them when and when not to tax.

Sorry I muddled things up with gem card sales in retail stores but if I try to buy a gem card from Amazon they will charge me tax and virtual currency, whether it’s console or MMO is taxed upfront because they aren’t like a store/restaurant/iTunes gift card which is a proxy for actual cash value and when it’s spent the tax is collected then. You aren’t taxed when you use your Microsoft/Sony/Wii points at use time so you are taxed beforehand and same is true with MMO proxy currently.

If they’re going to start charging tax as well, the least they can do is factor that into the price listing on the store. You really have no idea if you’re going to be taxed unless you go through it since the changes.

Why? The EU customers always had to pay taxes, it’s just that their tax (20%) is built into the price.

In EU everything (that i know off, few exceptions there) are taxed. For rounded values like 50,00 or 25,00 euro (easy currencies, not much thinking about it ‘how much is this now’ – so it’s often used values, especially for gift cards), they reverse the math.

Say 100 euro +21% (belgium) = 121 euro. Reverse match is very simple 121 / 1,21 = 100. Dividing by 1,21 always works, and is only one math entry to be done Very simple.

41,32 Euro is item base, and 8,68 is the tax, resulting in 50,00 euro. That’s how it’s done mostly in EU.

Behellagh.1468:

Why? The EU customers always had to pay taxes, it’s just that their tax (20%) is built into the price.

Exactly, EU has their taxes built in. You know what you’re paying, tax and all. Right now on the gem store, it still shows $10. It doesn’t show you what you’d be paying in tax, if at all. Which is my point. If they’re going to be charging taxes, the pricing needs to reflect that. In-game, there’s no ‘fine print’ about taxes at all.

Arrelaine.5692:

Exactly, EU has their taxes built in. You know what you’re paying, tax and all. Right now on the gem store, it still shows $10. It doesn’t show you what you’d be paying in tax, if at all. Which is my point. If they’re going to be charging taxes, the pricing needs to reflect that. In-game, there’s no ‘fine print’ about taxes at all.

When you shop at a physical store in the US, do the price tags on the shelves include tax?

I honestly don’t understand why folks are getting tied it knots over this. I know that I pay 8.25% sales tax on pretty much everything except food. And there’s no fine print needed – you should know whether you owe tax to your locality or not. If you’re ticked off about the tax rate, you should contact your state representative and senators and your city council and complain to them. Or move. That’s what I did I’d live just about anywhere else before I’d live in New York state again.

I would rather have a fixed price regardless of what state and city I’m in (some cities including the one I live in have tax in addition to the state tax) and have the variable amount added later so it’s obvious. Also local sales tax can be deducted from your federal taxes, so it’s nice to have it itemized out.

I don’t find it that difficult to calculate approximately 8% of the bill in my head and add it on – it’s not any more difficult than calculating a tip.