a social solution to price undercutting

a social solution to price undercutting

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Posted by: Aidan Savage.2078

Aidan Savage.2078

The TP is FIFO – First In, First Out. That means if I list an item for sale at 10s and ten minutes later you list the same item also at 10s, mine will sell first.

Not… entirely true. Yes, the TP works off a FIFO system, but that only relates to specific price points. If someone sells at a price above (assuming buyer’s choice) or below your price point, they can, and likely will, sell before you.

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Posted by: tolunart.2095

tolunart.2095

The TP is FIFO – First In, First Out. That means if I list an item for sale at 10s and ten minutes later you list the same item also at 10s, mine will sell first.

Not… entirely true. Yes, the TP works off a FIFO system, but that only relates to specific price points. If someone sells at a price above (assuming buyer’s choice) or below your price point, they can, and likely will, sell before you.

That’s what I said, if the prices are the same it’s FIFO. The post I was replying to said the opposite, that the most recently listed item would sell first. Obviously they cannot apply this to items with different prices.

“If there are 1,000 listings at 50c for an item, and I list mine for 50c as well, my item will sell first.”

There is no way to apply this to items with different prices. If I list an item for an unreasonably high price, say 50g for a crafted exotic weapon that usually costs 1g, and then you listed the same item for its regular price, why would a buyer be forced to pay more because my listing is older?

(edited by tolunart.2095)

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Posted by: laokoko.7403

laokoko.7403

If I care about being undercut, i just undercut the max price by a bunch. Most people are more patient, so they dont’ bother undercutting me more.

Or if they bother undercutting me more, it’ll get bought up quick anyway, since the item is under market value.

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Posted by: linuxotaku.4731

linuxotaku.4731

If I care about being undercut, i just undercut the max price by a bunch. Most people are more patient, so they dont’ bother undercutting me more.

Or if they bother undercutting me more, it’ll get bought up quick anyway, since the item is under market value.

I’m fine with undercutting. I think undercutting by 1c penalizes sellers (who should have been rewarded for creating a position in the market), reduces the speed with which markets reach efficiency, and discourages new traders — I’m disinterested in OP’s suggestion of being able to buy a specific sell offer, but do think the market would be better if there was a minimum % difference for undercutting when selling (0.5% would be fine, and would have minimal effect in most markets).

I don’t think it’d be dramatically better, just a little better. And we’d still have similar qq’ing on the forums, of course — it wouldn’t satisfy everyone. But it would reward sellers who move first for helping to establish a market, it might make more markets approach efficiency (buy/sell separated by overhead, 15% in this case), and I think it would be a slightly less frustrating experience for new traders.

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Posted by: Smooth Penguin.5294

Smooth Penguin.5294

But why fix something that isn’t broken? If adding a minimum % undercut won’t matter much, then why bother? If you want the market to reach that equilibrium faster, then just post your item for cheaper.

What it comes down to is that it’s the Seller’s fault for trying to sell their goods for a higher price. If my 1 Copper undercut prevents someone’s item from being sold for a long time, then that means the price is too high with such low demand.

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Posted by: linuxotaku.4731

linuxotaku.4731

But why fix something that isn’t broken? If adding a minimum % undercut won’t matter much, then why bother? If you want the market to reach that equilibrium faster, then just post your item for cheaper.

What it comes down to is that it’s the Seller’s fault for trying to sell their goods for a higher price. If my 1 Copper undercut prevents someone’s item from being sold for a long time, then that means the price is too high with such low demand.

Why bother to improve something that’s OK but not optimal?

I do my share of trading, but my choices won’t make the market reach equilibrium faster; suggesting that I change my individual habits misses the point.

I wasn’t asserting that your 1c underbid causes an item to stay on the market much longer; instead I was asserting:

  • this discourages new traders from participating in a smart way, since they’ll see their prices undercut by 1c and panic
  • this removes some of the reward which we should be giving to the first person to list, for helping to establish a market

I’d turn this around and ask — are your margins small enough that 0.5% would affect them substantially? Or do you think this would make flipping (which I consider good, though I don’t generally participate that way) impractical?

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Posted by: Smooth Penguin.5294

Smooth Penguin.5294

It would make it more impractical, since then I’d have no control over what prices I’d like to post my items for. Sometimes I’ll undercut by 1 Copper. Sometimes I’ll undercut by 50 Gold, just so I can sell my item quicker. It depends on my mood. I don’t want artificial limits placed, since that does nothing but make Sellers mad.

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Posted by: wwfam.2495

wwfam.2495

Do people realize that if they sell at buy order price, it becomes very unlikely that they will be undercut at all, let alone by 1c?

In a way, undercutting by 1c is punishing people for their greed.

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Posted by: Cormac.3871

Cormac.3871

0.5% means you would have to undercut by 20 copper for a t6 mat. That market would be interesting. It would be interesting to see how people gamed it too. If I had 100 t6 blood to sell and the price was 40s would I put up 1 at 39.8 and the rest at 39.99?

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Posted by: linuxotaku.4731

linuxotaku.4731

It would make it more impractical, since then I’d have no control over what prices I’d like to post my items for. Sometimes I’ll undercut by 1 Copper. Sometimes I’ll undercut by 50 Gold, just so I can sell my item quicker. It depends on my mood. I don’t want artificial limits placed, since that does nothing but make Sellers mad.

I’m proposing that you’d be able to undercut by 0.5% or more — just that there’d be a gap below the current sell listing, and otherwise there wouldn’t be further restrictions.

I’d propose allowing sell orders over the current price — as Cormac suggested this could be circumvented for high volume markets or markets where the seller is selling multiple items — but I think the efficiency argument is less of an issue for high volume markets, as those tend to approach efficient pricing already. And I suspect that most sellers wouldn’t bother circumventing that way.

The intent of this suggestion isn’t to change any trading strategies — just to limit the number of underbids we have to go through to get to an efficient price when the price is moving, and to reward the first person to post a listing somewhat more reliably.

But I’ll agree that — while I think it’d be an improvement — it’s ultimately not a big deal. It bothered me more when I started trading, now I think it’s fairly minor. (And in any case, I think it’d be better than allowing the buyer to choose which sell order to use. :-)

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Posted by: Smooth Penguin.5294

Smooth Penguin.5294

But why would you want to punish a Seller who decides to offer the same item for cheaper? You can’t reward a person just because they posted first. The reward (the sale) should go to whomever has the cheapest priced item, be it 1 Copper or 1 Gold undercuts.

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Posted by: Aidan Savage.2078

Aidan Savage.2078

And now this is beginning to discuss the exact same offal discussed in the LAST thread of this nature. 0.5% undercut requirement? 0.5% of what? Highest Buy order? Lowest Sell order? The spread between the two? Does it ignore current market supply and demand? Does it ignore market velocity?

There are items who’s price gap is so small, while the item’s average price is so high, that a forced 0.5% undercut can cause someone attempting to eke out a few copper more for their item (by selling sooner), to end up selling their item at a buy price they never wanted in the first place. Or they’ll end up not selling the item.

There is no problem, the system IS optimal, and “improvement” for the sake of “improvement” is idiotic.

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Posted by: NonToxic.9185

NonToxic.9185

I agree entirely with Aidan.

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Posted by: Cormac.3871

Cormac.3871

But why would you want to punish a Seller who decides to offer the same item for cheaper? You can’t reward a person just because they posted first. The reward (the sale) should go to whomever has the cheapest priced item, be it 1 Copper or 1 Gold undercuts.

For an item over a certain value one copper is essentially meaningless and at that level the TP becomes LIFO instead of FIFO. One copper only matters if you are trading in bulk.

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Posted by: linuxotaku.4731

linuxotaku.4731

But why would you want to punish a Seller who decides to offer the same item for cheaper? You can’t reward a person just because they posted first. The reward (the sale) should go to whomever has the cheapest priced item, be it 1 Copper or 1 Gold undercuts.

We reward the first to post by making the system a FIFO queue; but underbids by 1c for high priced items are essentially at the same price — at 0.0001%, you’re giving a reward for posting later rather than one for offering a better price. We shouldn’t be giving a reward for posting your sell offer last, unless it’s at a better price.

So — that’s why it would be OK to make changes here. The other arguments — which I made earlier — are why I believe it would improve the market place; this is why it would be OK to prevent another seller from undercutting by 1c. You didn’t find it convincing previous, so I don’t expect to convince you now, but you asked why I think this is OK.

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Posted by: linuxotaku.4731

linuxotaku.4731

And now this is beginning to discuss the exact same offal discussed in the LAST thread of this nature. 0.5% undercut requirement? 0.5% of what? Highest Buy order? Lowest Sell order? The spread between the two? Does it ignore current market supply and demand? Does it ignore market velocity?

I thought this was obvious — the only thing that would make sense is 0.5% of the current low sell offer. If the spread between the current low sell and the current high buy is less than that, then the seller could sell to the current high buy offer. I’m sure you’re going to ask: what about when that offer is exhausted? I’d be fine with either solution — making it possible to circumvent or allowing you to sell only as many as the current high buy offer. I’d probably do the former; my intent is to encourage good behavior, I don’t think you can enforce it.

There are items who’s price gap is so small, while the item’s average price is so high, that a forced 0.5% undercut can cause someone attempting to eke out a few copper more for their item (by selling sooner), to end up selling their item at a buy price they never wanted in the first place. Or they’ll end up not selling the item.

They can list themselves at the current low sell offer, or accept a sell price of 0.5% or less worse than they’d hoped. I don’t think this is an unreasonable restriction. Arguing that they’d be unable to sell is … hyperbole at best.

There is no problem, the system IS optimal, and “improvement” for the sake of “improvement” is idiotic.

There are clearly inefficient markets — where the buy/sell spread is much greater than 15%. And most traders don’t use the market efficiently (selling with orders that are likely to execute quickly but still above the current buy order) … clearly claiming that it’s optimal is equivalent to saying that it’s optimal for you (I think I’ve given clear arguments about why it’s not actually optimal, and you haven’t responded to those).

And calling proposed changes idiotic because you don’t like them is not actually an argument.

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Posted by: Smooth Penguin.5294

Smooth Penguin.5294

But why would you want to punish a Seller who decides to offer the same item for cheaper? You can’t reward a person just because they posted first. The reward (the sale) should go to whomever has the cheapest priced item, be it 1 Copper or 1 Gold undercuts.

We reward the first to post by making the system a FIFO queue; but underbids by 1c for high priced items are essentially at the same price — at 0.0001%, you’re giving a reward for posting later rather than one for offering a better price. We shouldn’t be giving a reward for posting your sell offer last, unless it’s at a better price.

So — that’s why it would be OK to make changes here. The other arguments — which I made earlier — are why I believe it would improve the market place; this is why it would be OK to prevent another seller from undercutting by 1c. You didn’t find it convincing previous, so I don’t expect to convince you now, but you asked why I think this is OK.

So you want to reward people who post items with prices that might be too high? If I undercut someone by 1 Copper, that means I’m offering my goods for cheaper. Then it isn’t a matter of FIFO, or LIFO. It’s a matter of me presenting the consumers with an opportunity to buy an item for cheaper than the previously posted price.

If the other seller wants to have their items sold quicker, then they should have gave more thought into the prices they ask for. For example:

Price is reasonable enough – Their item will still sell quickly after my undercut. Undercuts in this case don’t matter.

Price is too high – If my undercut item is sold, and the other seller has to wait a long time to sell theirs, that means the demand for the item at that price is near non-existent. Then it’s the seller’s fault for asking too much.

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Posted by: tolunart.2095

tolunart.2095

Even if they did implement minimum increments, it would only become the basis of more complaints: “.5% of 10g is not enough, why should someone else sell before me because he priced it at 9g95s!” The real complaint is that someone posted an item for sale after you did, and it sold first. There is no fix for this.

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Posted by: linuxotaku.4731

linuxotaku.4731

But why would you want to punish a Seller who decides to offer the same item for cheaper? You can’t reward a person just because they posted first. The reward (the sale) should go to whomever has the cheapest priced item, be it 1 Copper or 1 Gold undercuts.

We reward the first to post by making the system a FIFO queue; but underbids by 1c for high priced items are essentially at the same price — at 0.0001%, you’re giving a reward for posting later rather than one for offering a better price. We shouldn’t be giving a reward for posting your sell offer last, unless it’s at a better price.

So — that’s why it would be OK to make changes here. The other arguments — which I made earlier — are why I believe it would improve the market place; this is why it would be OK to prevent another seller from undercutting by 1c. You didn’t find it convincing previous, so I don’t expect to convince you now, but you asked why I think this is OK.

So you want to reward people who post items with prices that might be too high? If I undercut someone by 1 Copper, that means I’m offering my goods for cheaper. Then it isn’t a matter of FIFO, or LIFO. It’s a matter of me presenting the consumers with an opportunity to buy an item for cheaper than the previously posted price.

If the other seller wants to have their items sold quicker, then they should have gave more thought into the prices they ask for. For example:

Price is reasonable enough – Their item will still sell quickly after my undercut. Undercuts in this case don’t matter.

By the same token, posting your sell order behind theirs at the same price would produce an equivalent result for you. That is, in this scenario you lose nothing by posting at their price rather than undercutting by 1c.

Price is too high – If my undercut item is sold, and the other seller has to wait a long time to sell theirs, that means the demand for the item at that price is near non-existent. Then it’s the seller’s fault for asking too much.

Sure, but if the price is too high then decreasing by 1c isn’t going to matter for high ticket items. In this case, you should decrease by more than 1c or you’ll still be stuck unable to sell it.

Look — I don’t expect to convince you; I have thought through some of the effects, and I do think this would be an improvement in the market, albeit a relatively small one. There are other contexts where a minimum bid increment exists, without destroying those markets.

OTOH, I think you’re in luck in this case because it seems unlikely that this will ever be a priority even if I were to convince John Smith that this is a good idea — so it seems unlikely to ever be implemented. That doesn’t mean I can’t explain why I think it would be an improvement, especially when other proposals are raised that seem to target the same problem (assuming I think that they’re worse than a minimum undercut increment).

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Posted by: Smooth Penguin.5294

Smooth Penguin.5294

The reason why you’re getting pushback is because you’re advocating solutions to problems that don’t exist. It’s more along the lines of making suggestions to satisfy personal preferences IMO.

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Posted by: Duke Nukem.6783

Duke Nukem.6783

The TP is FIFO – First In, First Out. That means if I list an item for sale at 10s and ten minutes later you list the same item also at 10s, mine will sell first.

very true, but WHAT does that have to do with anything =p, im not suggesting a change to the way items of identical value are purchased only items of different values

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Posted by: Duke Nukem.6783

Duke Nukem.6783

The reason why you’re getting pushback is because you’re advocating solutions to problems that don’t exist. It’s more along the lines of making suggestions to satisfy personal preferences IMO.

the very first response to my post was another thread 100s of posts long wehre people argued for both sides on the same thing….im pretty sure thats proof that the problem exists or their would be no prior discussion on it….ok?

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Posted by: Killface.1896

Killface.1896

Just sell to buy orders and you will never be undercut

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Posted by: SteamPug.7682

SteamPug.7682

This thread should be closed seriously. Undercutting happens now, and always will happen. Even in Real life undercutting happens.

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Posted by: Obtena.7952

Obtena.7952

The funny part of this thread is that the OP is suggesting a fix to something that I’m willing to be is an INTENTIONAL FEATURE of the TP. I doubt highly that Anet decided to implement the TP as it is without realizing people can undercut.

Like has been said … solutions to non-problems, or more accurately, solutions to intended features which aren’t not solutions at all … just a new methods imagined and short sighted to satisfy angry people. Either way, a waste of breath.

(edited by Obtena.7952)

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Posted by: eithinan.9841

eithinan.9841

By the same token, posting your sell order behind theirs at the same price would produce an equivalent result for you. That is, in this scenario you lose nothing by posting at their price rather than undercutting by 1c.

Not true. the result of the 1c under cut is faster turnaround and a minuscule amount of “profit loss” for the seller and a slightly less expensive item for the buy it now person.

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Posted by: linuxotaku.4731

linuxotaku.4731

By the same token, posting your sell order behind theirs at the same price would produce an equivalent result for you. That is, in this scenario you lose nothing by posting at their price rather than undercutting by 1c.

Not true. the result of the 1c under cut is faster turnaround and a minuscule amount of “profit loss” for the seller and a slightly less expensive item for the buy it now person.

I understand why you would list at 1c under the current sell order — the time value of not waiting for money far outweighs the minuscule difference in price. I was simply pointing out that the arguments made previously about how undercutting don’t hurt the person who listed first apply to the person listing second as well — if it didn’t hurt the first person to wait — by the same token it wouldn’t have hurt the second person to list at essentially the same price to wait.

I’m not arguing for a minimum underbid because I think it would produce a more moral market; I’m saying I think it would make a more efficient market. If you want to sell first, I think you should be required to undercut by some fraction of the price rather than a fixed value which becomes mostly irrelevant.

If it improved efficiency (specifically, I’m thinking about moderately active markets which never converge toward a spread of a little over 15%), it would benefit buyers more than the slight discount of a few copper on hundreds of gold.

I also suspect that it’d be a less frustrating experience for newbies; that’s not enough of a reason to argue for it, but I’ll confess that it’s part of why I think it worth considering changes.

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Posted by: linuxotaku.4731

linuxotaku.4731

This thread should be closed seriously. Undercutting happens now, and always will happen. Even in Real life undercutting happens.

Undercutting is an important part of market pricing — obviously it’s necessary, since otherwise prices can’t adjust. But the Trading Post is also a FIFO, which is not necessary but is beneficial because it encourages people to post listings — the latter is needed for healthy markets since the TP has no formal market makers.

I don’t agree with the OP in this thread — I don’t think undercutting is a serious problem. But I do think the market would be more efficient if it required a minimum difference when undercutting. The approach GW2 took is simpler, which makes it much better for initial implementation; but at this point, you can also look at the number of inefficient markets and ask: could these markets be made more efficient?

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Posted by: spiritus.7983

spiritus.7983

“thats despicable”

Somoene is not sure what economy is and confusing that with he’s made up hypocritical morals

Evil, GH -Charr rule.
A Skritt is dumb. A group of Skritt are smart.
A Human is smart. A group of Humans are idiots.

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Posted by: Aidan Savage.2078

Aidan Savage.2078

If it improved efficiency (specifically, I’m thinking about moderately active markets which never converge toward a spread of a little over 15%), it would benefit buyers more than the slight discount of a few copper on hundreds of gold.

I strongly doubt it would increase efficiency of the markets. If anything, it would make them less efficient. The only way markets can increase in efficiency is if there’s supply to match. That’s why ectos usually have a 2-3 silver gap, even when prices shift up and down by +/-3 silver.
Markets like precursors have extremely low supply, thus are inefficient. Markets like crafting materials have high supply, which allows them to be extremely efficient.

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Posted by: Brother Grimm.5176

Brother Grimm.5176

….and the BEAT goes on….

(there’s a Brony Joke in here somewhere)

We go out in the world and take our chances
Fate is just the weight of circumstances
That’s the way that lady luck dances

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Posted by: linuxotaku.4731

linuxotaku.4731

If it improved efficiency (specifically, I’m thinking about moderately active markets which never converge toward a spread of a little over 15%), it would benefit buyers more than the slight discount of a few copper on hundreds of gold.

I strongly doubt it would increase efficiency of the markets. If anything, it would make them less efficient. The only way markets can increase in efficiency is if there’s supply to match. That’s why ectos usually have a 2-3 silver gap, even when prices shift up and down by +/-3 silver.
Markets like precursors have extremely low supply, thus are inefficient. Markets like crafting materials have high supply, which allows them to be extremely efficient.

For high volume markets, pricing is already efficient, and this wouldn’t matter. Precursors are actually high volume enough (and closely watched) so that their pricing is efficient — there’s not a lot of gain to be made from flipping; conversely, a 0.5% price gap wouldn’t affect most of the listings that I see.

When I looked previously, I saw more inefficiency in exotic weapons … someof that is gone. Kevin illustrates a little of what remains:

http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/25985

The low sell offers are:

20954
20955
20958
20959
20960
20963
20964
21515
24480
24495
24497
24999
25487
25489
25490

A 0.5% gap would have required a minimum difference of 125 — 1s25c at 2g50s — so it would have spread out the underbids somewhat more. I think it’s interesting to look at what the last set of 1c underbids would have become:

20964
20963 → 20859
20960 → 20754
20959 → 20651
20958 → 20547
20955 → 20445
20954 → 20342

I would prefer this pricing: it would force sellers to actually think about their listings, though, since at some point it would be better to list at the current sell offer rather than 0.5% lower than the current sell offer. If you like selling on autopilot always 1c under the current sell offer, then this is less appealing … but I’d rather ask sellers to also think about the price they can get, rather than always using the strategy of listing at essentially the current sell price, but under by 1-2c so your sale happens first.

The result from the above would remove a little more of the inefficiency in pricing this item — since the current buy offer is 16320, and 85% of the above is 17291 (rather than 17810 — not a huge difference, but IMO an improvement).

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Posted by: Imperatora.7654

Imperatora.7654

the very first response to my post was another thread 100s of posts long wehre people argued for both sides on the same thing….im pretty sure thats proof that the problem exists or their would be no prior discussion on it….ok?

people will argue for hundreds of posts about whether or not the Earth is round, it doesn’t mean that one side isn’t flat out wrong (pun intended).

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Posted by: Duke Nukem.6783

Duke Nukem.6783

Just sell to buy orders and you will never be undercut

this is about me not wanting to buy from undercutters not what i am selling…..as the OP says

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Posted by: Zaxares.5419

Zaxares.5419

Sooo… You want to pay MORE for your goods? O.o

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Posted by: Duke Nukem.6783

Duke Nukem.6783

If it improved efficiency (specifically, I’m thinking about moderately active markets which never converge toward a spread of a little over 15%), it would benefit buyers more than the slight discount of a few copper on hundreds of gold.

I strongly doubt it would increase efficiency of the markets. If anything, it would make them less efficient. The only way markets can increase in efficiency is if there’s supply to match. That’s why ectos usually have a 2-3 silver gap, even when prices shift up and down by +/-3 silver.
Markets like precursors have extremely low supply, thus are inefficient. Markets like crafting materials have high supply, which allows them to be extremely efficient.

For high volume markets, pricing is already efficient, and this wouldn’t matter. Precursors are actually high volume enough (and closely watched) so that their pricing is efficient — there’s not a lot of gain to be made from flipping; conversely, a 0.5% price gap wouldn’t affect most of the listings that I see.

When I looked previously, I saw more inefficiency in exotic weapons … someof that is gone. Kevin illustrates a little of what remains:

http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/25985

The low sell offers are:

20954
20955
20958
20959
20960
20963
20964
21515
24480
24495
24497
24999
25487
25489
25490

A 0.5% gap would have required a minimum difference of 125 — 1s25c at 2g50s — so it would have spread out the underbids somewhat more. I think it’s interesting to look at what the last set of 1c underbids would have become:

20964
20963 -> 20859
20960 -> 20754
20959 -> 20651
20958 -> 20547
20955 -> 20445
20954 -> 20342

I would prefer this pricing: it would force sellers to actually think about their listings, though, since at some point it would be better to list at the current sell offer rather than 0.5% lower than the current sell offer. If you like selling on autopilot always 1c under the current sell offer, then this is less appealing … but I’d rather ask sellers to also think about the price they can get, rather than always using the strategy of listing at essentially the current sell price, but under by 1-2c so your sale happens first.

The result from the above would remove a little more of the inefficiency in pricing this item — since the current buy offer is 16320, and 85% of the above is 17291 (rather than 17810 — not a huge difference, but IMO an improvement).

this is another good idea but im more in favor of the total free market concept of letting the seller AND the buyer make their 100% own choice

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Posted by: Duke Nukem.6783

Duke Nukem.6783

Sooo… You want to pay MORE for your goods? O.o

yes i do, to some this might seem strange but i assure you in the long run the entire economy is healthier and happier , the bottom teir of the economy (the players who gather the resources themselves) are gaining more money and thus spending mroe money which helps the higher teir of sellers who want more money for their product

so im paying more, but we are ALL getting more

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Posted by: Smooth Penguin.5294

Smooth Penguin.5294

I’m all for the idea that Sellers have 100% freedom to post items for whatever prices they want. Tis how capitalism works.

#Yayifications!

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In GW2, Trading Post plays you!

a social solution to price undercutting

in Black Lion Trading Co

Posted by: linuxotaku.4731

linuxotaku.4731

I’m all for the idea that Sellers have 100% freedom to post items for whatever prices they want. Tis how capitalism works.

#Yayifications!

You don’t have complete freedom. You can’t post under the merchant’s price. All the successful capitalist systems which we can see in the world seen have rules and someone enforcing those rules — not complete freedom, but something closer than the alternatives.

Anyway, after thinking about it more, the UI changes required for my proposal seem annoying and difficult to explain to users. And it might be possible to get much of the benefit with a slider allowing you to choose a value between high buy offer, which would encourage more people to offer items somewhere in between (currently the UI makes that too time consuming, IMO).

a social solution to price undercutting

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Posted by: Aidan Savage.2078

Aidan Savage.2078

I’m all for the idea that Sellers have 100% freedom to post items for whatever prices they want. Tis how capitalism works.

#Yayifications!

You don’t have complete freedom. You can’t post under the merchant’s price. All the successful capitalist systems which we can see in the world seen have rules and someone enforcing those rules — not complete freedom, but something closer than the alternatives.

Anyway, after thinking about it more, the UI changes required for my proposal seem annoying and difficult to explain to users. And it might be possible to get much of the benefit with a slider allowing you to choose a value between high buy offer, which would encourage more people to offer items somewhere in between (currently the UI makes that too time consuming, IMO).

The merchant price is essentially a liquidity price. At that point, you’re better served making a conscious effort to convert those items to something of value if you can. But beyond that liquidity price, you can charge whatever you want for the item as long as the market supports that price, whether it’s a silver above merchant or 30 thousand gold above, you can list stuff at that price.

Also, it’s not time consuming unless you play with an ancient mouse that does not have a scroll wheel. Pick lowest sell, scroll a few silver/gold or copper off the price, list.

a social solution to price undercutting

in Black Lion Trading Co

Posted by: SeasThyDay.7398

SeasThyDay.7398

Anet prioritizes profit over customer satisfaction when it’s not significant enough to have a negative impact on Anet’s bottom line.

Anet (or maybe NCSoft in this case) has determined through some means that the current model, with minimal staff, is the most profitable. Hence, even if Anet by some miracle determined that your suggestion was not only valid but good, it would take some time to implement.

Anet probably won’t have the time or manpower to consider your suggestion, even if it only took .5 secs to implement with a decent sized team.

If Anet doesn’t feel your opinion is shared by many others (as in this case), or explicitly related to the rules, they really don’t care.

a social solution to price undercutting

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Posted by: Wanze.8410

Wanze.8410

Sooo… You want to pay MORE for your goods? O.o

yes i do, to some this might seem strange but i assure you in the long run the entire economy is healthier and happier , the bottom teir of the economy (the players who gather the resources themselves) are gaining more money and thus spending mroe money which helps the higher teir of sellers who want more money for their product

so im paying more, but we are ALL getting more

“so i am paying more, but we are ALL getting more sounds like a pyramid scheme slogan.

Just because you choose to buy the 2nd lowest listing doesnt mean that its posted by a farmer. I could just undercut the lowest listing by 1c, post 99 items and then undercut myself by 1c with another single listing. You will end up with my items anyways, thank you very much.

Tin Foil [HATS]-Hardcore BLTC-PvP Guild
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.

a social solution to price undercutting

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Posted by: Duke Nukem.6783

Duke Nukem.6783

I’m all for the idea that Sellers have 100% freedom to post items for whatever prices they want. Tis how capitalism works.

#Yayifications!

sooooo do u aggree that the BUYER should have total freedom of choice aswell?

a social solution to price undercutting

in Black Lion Trading Co

Posted by: Aidan Savage.2078

Aidan Savage.2078

I’m all for the idea that Sellers have 100% freedom to post items for whatever prices they want. Tis how capitalism works.

#Yayifications!

sooooo do u aggree that the BUYER should have total freedom of choice aswell?

For what ungodly reason would a buyer willingly choose to pay more for an item? And buyers HAVE THAT FREEDOM already. It’s called “list a buy order.” Items do not vary in quality, so there’s no reason to be able to choose higher than the lowest sale price. If you cant understand that, there’s no helping.

a social solution to price undercutting

in Black Lion Trading Co

Posted by: Duke Nukem.6783

Duke Nukem.6783

I’m all for the idea that Sellers have 100% freedom to post items for whatever prices they want. Tis how capitalism works.

#Yayifications!

sooooo do u aggree that the BUYER should have total freedom of choice aswell?

For what ungodly reason would a buyer willingly choose to pay more for an item? And buyers HAVE THAT FREEDOM already. It’s called “list a buy order.” Items do not vary in quality, so there’s no reason to be able to choose higher than the lowest sale price. If you cant understand that, there’s no helping.

your post is very unhelpful and repetative as i have already listed the reasons many times. also we do not have that freedom as we cannot buy the more expensive option if we want to (and dont ask why, you have already demonstrated that you didnt read my first post completly

a social solution to price undercutting

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Posted by: Aidan Savage.2078

Aidan Savage.2078

There is no logic in wasting money buying at a higher price than the lowest sale order. So why would you bother doing it? Because you dont like people who undercut? Well guess how the market got to those prices in the first place. There is no conceivable reason that is well-founded in logic and thought for someone to waste money. So anet’s not going to introduce what amounts to a waste of time, money, and effort. Expecting them to, or even continuing to suggest it, is beating your head against a brick wall that will not budge.

a social solution to price undercutting

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Posted by: Smooth Penguin.5294

Smooth Penguin.5294

I’m all for the idea that Sellers have 100% freedom to post items for whatever prices they want. Tis how capitalism works.

#Yayifications!

sooooo do u aggree that the BUYER should have total freedom of choice aswell?

I can guarantee you that if a buyer had the ability to pick and choose whatever priced item he wanted, he’d still end up buying one of my listings. Because I could make it that the first 10 items you see on the list will be all mine. That’s not to say that people already do this.

In GW2, Trading Post plays you!

a social solution to price undercutting

in Black Lion Trading Co

Posted by: Illconceived Was Na.9781

Illconceived Was Na.9781

People do all sorts of hard-to-explain things on the TP:

  • People still sell items in massive quantities at less than 10% above vendor value, even though the projected profit is clearly posted on the screen (yes, they really shouldn’t sell for less than 15+% above vendor, but that second amount isn’t as obvious).
  • People buy items with a unique name for crazy amounts. Compare Sam to Opal Orichalcum Earring of Opal — the generic has the same function and offers the same outward appearance, yet trades at 70-90% less.
  • People pay a premium for items with unique names, but common skins.

So, sure, if you offer people the opportunity to pay more than the lowest sale offer or sell for less than the highest buy offer, some people will do that.

However

  1. I still don’t see that anyone has established why undercutting is a problem for game’s overall economy or
  2. (for those who believe this as an article of faith) how this particular solution would help resolve the stated concern.

Currently, the game already offers me the ability to adjust my offer: if I think the sell offers are too high (and I usually do), I put in a custom buy order that makes sense for me. Similarly, as I generally think people are offering too little for items I want to sell, I am able to ask for more.

John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”

a social solution to price undercutting

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Posted by: Astral Projections.7320

Astral Projections.7320

There is no logic in wasting money buying at a higher price than the lowest sale order. So why would you bother doing it? Because you dont like people who undercut? Well guess how the market got to those prices in the first place. There is no conceivable reason that is well-founded in logic and thought for someone to waste money. So anet’s not going to introduce what amounts to a waste of time, money, and effort. Expecting them to, or even continuing to suggest it, is beating your head against a brick wall that will not budge.

The part I highlighted is the part where I think OP’s argument falls apart. Normally there are a whole long series of sell orders, each one undercutting the previous one. Maybe it wasn’t just by one copper but they are still undercuts by people who could have chosen to match the previous price. Pointing out the last one and claiming its more immoral than any of the others is not logical. They all are undercuts and therefore by his reasoning, immoral.

a social solution to price undercutting

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Posted by: Brother Grimm.5176

Brother Grimm.5176

Just sell to buy orders and you will never be undercut

Either you are all BL traders’ favorite customer or a BL trader playing at Jedi mind tricks…..

“This is not the custom buy order you are looking for….”

We go out in the world and take our chances
Fate is just the weight of circumstances
That’s the way that lady luck dances