Guild Wars 2

Crystal Reid.2481:

• How often should raids in GW2 reset?
• Should we also include the option to extend lockouts for groups that progress slower?

I don’t really see a reason for raids to reset or lockout unless manually chosen, I was under the impression that those mechanics were in play to stunt the speed at which vertical progression occurred in games with it.
In GW2 I don’t really see the function of it, I may be missing something though?

Example of Inside Raid Roles (hardcore mode)

Let’s call this “The Room”.

• There is 15 players and 2 big bosses (Trolls) in the center of the room (Zip and Zap) inmune to damage, however they can hit players.
• To damage Zap you need to set him into flames.
• To make torchs appear, you need to kill minions (Zap will summon them), 1 random drop of torch for each 10 of them killed.
• If you set Zap into fire, that stops minions to appear, but Zip will go to the South wall to get a bucket of water to help his friend.
• At that moment, to damage Zip you need to use 3 chains in the West and 3 in the East to drop down rocks from the ceiling that will stun Zip (if they hit him in his run to the water point bucket) allowing a 20-30 seconds window to attack.

That said you got already roles for any proffesion:
6 Chain players, would be great ranged players.
X Torch players, melee would be good for this duty.
X Free to help other players. Rezz if anyone dies, kill minions in the meantime, etc.

Notice that you can only kill Zip if you want to kill him first, attempting to kill Zap first would make Zip impossible to kill (it’s important to make a point here: Failing the first time must be a MUST, that’s how players learn for a second try).

Edit: Boss skills at your choice, but powerful enough to kill players. Even minions should be able to.

Hi, long term mmorpg player here, been playing games since 80’s, going from 5 day a week raiding for a couple years in WOW, to a more balanced style with GW1 & LOTR.

Proposal Overview

Large instances much as GW1 that has a 10 man and a 15 man format. No difference in rewards, 2 sizes are simply for flexibility while allowing decent balancing. The instances should take 1- 2 hours, and it should be easy to find replacements for people to drop out through LFR. Rewards are skins, rare materials, rare pets and a little more gold. There should be a good storyline associated with the instance, and perhaps 3 paths much like 5 mans.

Goal of Proposal

- Think of as a blend of GW2 Fractal difficulty and GW1 raids, but longer and with more people for the added atmosphere in raid and most importantly an opportunity for a Guild to do larger events together.

- RE Difficulty, it should be achievable by a random group where players in the group understand the tactics. the tactics should not be unforgiving and allow for downed state (Downed state in raids offers a genuinly different approach to typical raiding imo)

- A real opportunity to create bonds with GW1 history – tie storylines with Abaddon etc.

Proposal Functionality

Same as Fractal, LFG support etc, a new Agony like affect perhaps with the same increase in Agony resistance gear as per 5 man fractal.

Potential Issues.

The new raids have to compliment existing game play features. If the new Raids were seen as the only ‘end-game’ then that is a slippery road to a instance/skin cycle trap that is well covered in other well known games. Future Raids should compliment existing raid content – although perhaps introducing a new Agony type per Raid along with new skins etc would offer a good progression model that is repeatable.

My personal Experience of 20 man plus starts to introduce management issues in raid, especially for random groups.
Re Difficulty, again new raids should be no more difficult that old raids – Horizontal progression, where a player is aiming for multiple Raids Achievements side by side would be pretty awesome long term play/goals.

trying to build on the core foundations:

• Melee damage: Being in melee range is the highest damage but also the most risky.

• Range Damage: Range is for situations where it’s not possible to melee or you are playing it safe to counter an event mechanic.

• Condition damage: Condition vulnerable enemies, such as wurm husks. Removal of the condition duration from the unshakable buff and have unique player conditions.

• Kiting: Aggro of the boss or mobs should feel less random, maybe focusing their gaze onto a specific player through mechanics. (ooze attractant)

• Runner: When things require you move fast this is your guy! See that button? Go press it! Pressure plate over there? He’s on it!

• Reviver: A troop of people able to pick up the downed as fast as possible, and have the best chance of reviving a fully downed player. (not sure)

• Support boons: Primary focus on keeping up vital boons for survival such as: agis, vigor and protection also using appropriate combo fields.

• Support reflects: Supports the raid by placing well aimed and timed reflect spells to counter projectiles.

• Support Condition removal: Exactly what it says on the tin, removes conditions were applicable.

• Crowd Control: Slowing and knocking back of enemies running towards your more vulnerable players.

Melee damage: is in range of the bosses grasp —> could get thrown around, maybe to new locations where players have new alternative tasks.

Range damage: can activate switches, shoot down stalactite to make bosses more vulnerable / stop enrage (boss needs to be kited to the right location first)

Runner/Jumper: try to finish a jumping puzzle in the boss room to unlock a new defense mechanic against the boss / unlock a new follow up boss if done in a certain time-limit.

Reviver: Heals certain npcs in order to get a buff which does major damage to the boss. Heals a wounded ally-beast which needs to be defended as well. Fully revived (which may be quite challenging due to incoming enemies) it helps killing the main-boss.

Crowd control: multiple effects on a boss with 6 different target zones:

• legs: cripple both legs for at least 10 seconds —> boss trembles
• head: confusion: at least 5 stacks while trembling —> boss drops to the floor
• body: 25 stacks of bleeding —> the boss takes huge damage and attracts blood worms which eat him from the inside
• arms: vulnerable 25 stacks —> makes arm armour temporary fragile —> can be destroyed by a knockback-attack.

Crystal Reid.2481:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

timmyf.1490:

Sure thing, Chris. I feel like the discussion of rewards progression in particular could use some guidance. I had suggested earlier a system by which players could earn Legendary Raid Armor through a progression system. I was expecting a lot of strong reactions, but I mostly heard silence.

Curious as to what others think. Personally, I think raids need unique (read: can only be earned in raids) reward skins that are earned either through RNG or a progression system. (Meaning: you can get them as a drop if you’re lucky, but you get a fixed-effort backup option as well.)

Edit: here was that post. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Guilds-Raiding/4529755

Crystal is taking point on progression and I am taking point on foundational design.

I am sure she will see your post soon.

Her discussion area is doing better than mine (-: so yes maybe it is time to focus in on some of the ideas in that area.

Chris

P.S: Note the Seahawks game is on soon and I will afk!!

Thanks for bumping this and bringing to my attention. That is definitely a cool idea, but of course it does touch a little on the topic of gear progression. So here are some more questions for you with regards to your proposal:

• Is Legendary armor better than Ascended armor stat wise?
• Can this legendary armor be obtained anywhere else in the game?
• How do we prevent the introduction of Legendary armor from invalidating players who spent a lot of time/money crafting their Ascended armor?
• Is this a drop from raid encounters, or is it obtained through a “raiding reward track”?

I think you can see where I’m going with this. Ascended armor is already a pretty hotly debated topic because it did introduce a very slight vertical progression to the game.

I’m not gonna steal Timmy’s idea, but I’d like to comment what I think about those points, Crystal.

• Their stats should be on level with ascended as it’s currently the case with the legendary weapons, but as it’s also the case with legendary weapons, the armor should allow you to change the stats. This will not only make the legendary armor a unique skin reward, it will also somewhat make it item progression, in terms of giving you more stat freedom.
• The legendary armor obtained through raiding should not be obtainable in other parts of the game. Other game areas could have their own set of legendary armor (I know that might be alot of work designing new skins), or the legendary armor could be made with difficult materials gathered (not RNG) from different areas of the game, including the raids. I prefer the first option though.
• Point 3 is a tough one. But I’d say that the legendary armor should be really tough to earn, so the slow rate at which you get it should keep ascended viable for quite some time.
• I’d say the legendary armor should be a long process of upgrading the unique drops from inside the raid. The base item could possibly be attained through a reward track, but some of the upgrade components should require defeating certain bosses, possibly with certain optional objectives succeeded.
  I put in a few thoughts of how to combine different reward ideas in this post:
  https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Guilds-Raiding/4531386
  Basically, the legendary step would just be one more step than I imagined, but I like the idea.

Crystal Reid.2481:

1* Is Legendary armor better than Ascended armor stat wise?
2* Can this legendary armor be obtained anywhere else in the game?
3* How do we prevent the introduction of Legendary armor from invalidating players who spent a lot of time/money crafting their Ascended armor?
4* Is this a drop from raid encounters, or is it obtained through a “raiding reward track”?

1. Nope it denotes that its rarity colour is purple and that it may have the stat swap ability and special visual effects.
2. I’m going to go with initially only raids, this is the raid specific legendary armor there will be others later. I had two paragraphs typed out but then deleted them because alternate legendary sets through other game play types (Pvp, WvW, Dungeons) will be a massive problem to talk about (I.E if you just stick the Pvp set on a reward track how do you stop every single pvp player getting it).

Alternative: There is just THE legendary armor set but with raids a required component, along with all gameplay types, kinda like a legendary was designed as (my suspicion) initially.

3. The armor would be much harder to get than an ascended piece or existing ascended pieces could be used as a component (would need to work some other gate in in that case to prevent everybody and their alt running around in legendary).

4. Component could drop from the end boss / could require multiple runs and a double click combine to make the functional component.

Why not just have ascended chests as drops for completing raids, or reward tracks and the like? There is no surefire way to get ascended other than crafting, this would be a good incentive for players, especially those with many alts, since gearing them all with ascended is costly and time consuming.

phys.7689:

no, these type of mechanics are way too specific, you will be waiting around for mesmer just like you used to be for a healer. In wurm its all good because you will have many people, some will fill the gaps, but out of 10-15 people?

its all good that reflection might be useful, but that shouldnt be the only way to handle a problem ( or so much better that all other methods suck)

i feel like most of the condi focused enemies are too far in the condi department. Its ok to give an enemy signifigant defences, but making it so physical attacks do like 10 dmg is kind of ehhhhh. Its not as bad as needing reflect though. Every class has some access to conditions, and conditions tends to be playstyle whereas reflect is more of a gimmick.

I’m going to point out something about reflection and Condi damage in Triple Trouble which is why I keep coming back to them.

The Following professions can fill the reflect role in Triple trouble: Guardian, Elementalist, Mesmer, Thief, Engineer, and Ranger.

There are more classes with access to reflects then you think. Only Nercomancers and Warriors can’t actually do anything to reflect eggs. Of those 6, 5 could contribute to reflecting projectiles coming from a single source.

Let’s say there’s an invincible projectile spammer flame portal (summoned by the molten alliance or something) that you need to block projectiles from and you only got thieves, engineers warriors and mesmers. A Mesmer can use feedback, followed by thief’s smoke screen, followed by an engineer’s Elixier U and maybe a Fortified turret’s rifle turret (you know the trait that creates reflect shields, while having a Guardian in that situation would be more ideal, it is not impossible with the professions you have. I personally doubt there will be very many situations where a 15 man Raid has only Warriors and nercomancers for some reason.

The Following professions can fill the condi role in Triple Trouble: Nercomancers, Engineers, Thieves, Mesmers, Rangers, Warriors, and Elementalists.

Only Guardians have no real Condi-build. Every other profession has some sort of condi-spec. I also want to point out that the king of reflect is the worst condi-team member and vice-versa which is why these 2 roles go well with each other (usually opposite professions go to each).

Crystal Reid.2481:

• How often should raids in GW2 reset?
• Should we also include the option to extend lockouts for groups that progress slower?

• I think the raids should have a base daily reset, but with the option of skipping any boss you had previously defeated. Skipping should only be available if the entire team has defeated the boss.
  I think it’s important to make sure we can’t ferry people in on boss X without them participating in defeating the earlier bosses.
  This would, however, only work for linear raids.
  For raids with choices along the way (in TA style), several bosses would have to be “grouped” together as for example: “layer 1 bosses”, “layer 2 bosses” and so on. Defeating any “layer 1 boss” would give access to the layer 2 “checkpoint”.
• When it comes to the rewards, I think there should be a daily reset on basic rewards (gold etc.) and a longer (weekly) reset on the unique/exclusive rewards (in my mind Boss Boxes).
  I’d much prefer the rewards to be the “lockout” rather than the raid itself.

Crystal Reid.2481:

• A raid could be as small as a singular dungeon path that takes 4 hours to learn, but can be completed in as little as 30 minutes on farm.
• A raid could be as large as the Eternal Battlegrounds with many different paths/encounters that takes upwards of a month(s) to learn, but can be completed in as little as 4 hours on farm.

• If we have a much larger story to tell, can it be a full sized map complete with multiple encounters and hidden areas to explore (imagine if Dry Top was a 15 man instance and you progressed through the map learning the story of how a huge sand storm is coming, and the final boss is some sort of magical sand storm giant that summons chickenados as its minions)?

Length wise I’d like like a middle ground sort of affair ,where it still takes quite a bit to finish (over an hour but under three) on “farm” mode (I.e <1 previous completion). There is no set time to learn that you could account for as complete failure is an option.

I’d like Raids to have a large instance if possible, Nearly all the dungeons are relatively human sized opponents in sometimes quite cramped spaces (Is Lupi the largest boss?, Boss fractal jade maw aside).
I’d like it to be more "walk into this 10 story high underground space with waterfalls either side flowing down into the abyss, you enter into an arena like space and an enormous boss appears (Teq/ Jormag sized, maybe smaller).
Bonus: This fixes visibility issues with graphical spam from all the legendary weapons that will be swinging at the boss.

Story wise I’d like it to be more than just a boss , like steps before the lane defense then boss fight in the marionette. I.E taking down the barriers into the area, assaulting up to the lanes, a reverse lane defense where you and the pact troops fight your way up to take them.

One short comment on legendary armor, if it is introduced: However it is obtained, it should not take as long per piece as a legendary weapon does. After all, you need six pieces to make a set. The question becomes, what percentage of the player base do we want to have access to the armor after what period of time, given some work on their part to assemble it? Obviously 100% in 7 days is a Bad Idea. But 2% in a year could be just as bad.

I’d prefer that it not be completely raid-tied, either, though I can see raids being the prime source of armor components. While there should be some rewards that are raid-specific to show you’ve done well in that area, what people are saying about legendary armor leans it towards more general use, and thus pressures non-raiders to raid or feel left out of something highly useful.

Crystal Reid.2481:

How do others feel about this? Are these types of mechanics are the way to go to circumvent the lack of Trinity in the game? It’s not about tanks/healers, it’s about condi/reflect teams (similar to the Jungle Wurm).

Hard profession mechanics might be stretching i abit, but soft profession mechanics is a must in my eyes.

guardian.6489:

phys.7689:

no, these type of mechanics are way too specific, you will be waiting around for mesmer just like you used to be for a healer. In wurm its all good because you will have many people, some will fill the gaps, but out of 10-15 people?

its all good that reflection might be useful, but that shouldnt be the only way to handle a problem ( or so much better that all other methods suck)

i feel like most of the condi focused enemies are too far in the condi department. Its ok to give an enemy signifigant defences, but making it so physical attacks do like 10 dmg is kind of ehhhhh. Its not as bad as needing reflect though. Every class has some access to conditions, and conditions tends to be playstyle whereas reflect is more of a gimmick.

I’m going to point out something about reflection and Condi damage in Triple Trouble which is why I keep coming back to them.

The Following professions can fill the reflect role in Triple trouble: Guardian, Elementalist, Mesmer, Thief, Engineer, and Ranger.

There are more classes with access to reflects then you think. Only Nercomancers and Warriors can’t actually do anything to reflect eggs. Of those 6, 5 could contribute to reflecting projectiles coming from a single source.

Let’s say there’s an invincible projectile spammer flame portal (summoned by the molten alliance or something) that you need to block projectiles from and you only got thieves, engineers warriors and mesmers. A Mesmer can use feedback, followed by thief’s smoke screen, followed by an engineer’s Elixier U and maybe a Fortified turret’s rifle turret (you know the trait that creates reflect shields, while having a Guardian in that situation would be more ideal, it is not impossible with the professions you have. I personally doubt there will be very many situations where a 15 man Raid has only Warriors and nercomancers for some reason.

The Following professions can fill the condi role in Triple Trouble: Nercomancers, Engineers, Thieves, Mesmers, Rangers, Warriors, and Elementalists.

Only Guardians have no real Condi-build. Every other profession has some sort of condi-spec. I also want to point out that the king of reflect is the worst condi-team member and vice-versa which is why these 2 roles go well with each other (usually opposite professions go to each).

Im kind of opposed to these hyper focused roles that require specific skill/trait setups. especially when that playstyle is very limited.

While from a leader commander role, its cool, on a personal play level it is not.

Reflect should just be a tool within an overall build set/playstyle. It shouldnt become a playstyle within itself. I will tell you on a personal level those type of hyper specific roles tend to make encounters boring(on an individual level). However if the content requires it, people will do it.

• I remember a different game. For this end encounter, the job of the monk(martial class) was to sit in a corner, using a boost skill every 10 seconds, then join the main party, shoot a projectile every 3 minutes and leave the party and begin boosting again. And it was stupid from a player perspective. This was actually a player created solution to a enemy encounter, but imagine if the developers built that to be required? Its not cool at all on a personal play level.
  to be defined by one very small portion of your skillset/playstyle is not very satisfying.

focus more on broader roles, reflect is actually only supposed to be a supplement to a counter heavy, punishment style of play. It would be fine to create a gap for role that excels on a counter heavy/punishment style. For it just to be based around one aspect of that is too focused.

Donari.5237:

But 2% in a year could be just as bad.

Just a quick note on this visual saturation is a massive problem with legendaries at the moment I.E if you see 1 you remember it, if you see 3 on the same map you’d think it was overly common, A lower rate like that may not be a bad thing.

For a quick second note I’ve been tracking weapon composition for my last 40 dungeon runs discounting myself 97/160 people (no repeats to the best of my knowledge) I ran with possessed at least one legendary weapon, while a very biased sample it gives an idea of why some people think legendaries are common as dirt while others think they’re quite difficult to get. (Pugs used in all cases, more than one legendary not counted, Tags Exp and 80 only were present on nearly every dungeon run).

Back on topic on my next post.

Crystal Reid.2481:

Ideally, raiding should be about challenge, not time.

I had a thought on this (with something unique that GW2 offers in mind).

What if, instead of long single raids, raids were pieced together similar to the chapters in the living story?

So once you unlocked one “episode” you were eligible for the next, etc etc. Each chapter would be fairly short and would lead into the next.

That way, raid groups progressing through could stop after each one and decide if they have the time to start the next episode or if they wanted to save it for another night.

And forget about resetting them – just implement a weekly lock out on the final rewards from each episode.

Once people have progressed through them all, groups could replay any episodes, in any order they see fit – basically letting them play the episodes they enjoy most.

From a development stand point, this would allow you to gradually introduce raids and get episodes out faster – rather than having to wait until the entire raid was done to give us access to the awesome.

Just a thought that felt a little different, but would add a unique flavor to GW2 raiding.

@Conski Deshan: Hey, about your idea of soft roles for professions, I couldn’t find your post to quote, but, what about Warriors being able to grab weapons found inside the instance? From random rusty weapons of fallen adventurers, to mythical weapons that you have to wield in order to progress?

phys.7689:

guardian.6489:

phys.7689:

no, these type of mechanics are way too specific, you will be waiting around for mesmer just like you used to be for a healer. In wurm its all good because you will have many people, some will fill the gaps, but out of 10-15 people?

its all good that reflection might be useful, but that shouldnt be the only way to handle a problem ( or so much better that all other methods suck)

i feel like most of the condi focused enemies are too far in the condi department. Its ok to give an enemy signifigant defences, but making it so physical attacks do like 10 dmg is kind of ehhhhh. Its not as bad as needing reflect though. Every class has some access to conditions, and conditions tends to be playstyle whereas reflect is more of a gimmick.

I’m going to point out something about reflection and Condi damage in Triple Trouble which is why I keep coming back to them.

The Following professions can fill the reflect role in Triple trouble: Guardian, Elementalist, Mesmer, Thief, Engineer, and Ranger.

There are more classes with access to reflects then you think. Only Nercomancers and Warriors can’t actually do anything to reflect eggs. Of those 6, 5 could contribute to reflecting projectiles coming from a single source.

Let’s say there’s an invincible projectile spammer flame portal (summoned by the molten alliance or something) that you need to block projectiles from and you only got thieves, engineers warriors and mesmers. A Mesmer can use feedback, followed by thief’s smoke screen, followed by an engineer’s Elixier U and maybe a Fortified turret’s rifle turret (you know the trait that creates reflect shields, while having a Guardian in that situation would be more ideal, it is not impossible with the professions you have. I personally doubt there will be very many situations where a 15 man Raid has only Warriors and nercomancers for some reason.

The Following professions can fill the condi role in Triple Trouble: Nercomancers, Engineers, Thieves, Mesmers, Rangers, Warriors, and Elementalists.

Only Guardians have no real Condi-build. Every other profession has some sort of condi-spec. I also want to point out that the king of reflect is the worst condi-team member and vice-versa which is why these 2 roles go well with each other (usually opposite professions go to each).

Im kind of opposed to these hyper focused roles that require specific skill/trait setups. especially when that playstyle is very limited.

While from a leader commander role, its cool, on a personal play level it is not.

Reflect should just be a tool within an overall build set/playstyle. It shouldnt become a playstyle within itself. I will tell you on a personal level those type of hyper specific roles tend to make encounters boring(on an individual level). However if the content requires it, people will do it.

• I remember a different game. For this end encounter, the job of the monk(martial class) was to sit in a corner, using a boost skill every 10 seconds, then join the main party, shoot a projectile every 3 minutes and leave the party and begin boosting again. And it was stupid from a player perspective. This was actually a player created solution to a enemy encounter, but imagine if the developers built that to be required? Its not cool at all on a personal play level.
  to be defined by one very small portion of your skillset/playstyle is not very satisfying.

focus more on broader roles, reflect is actually only supposed to be a supplement to a counter heavy, punishment style of play. It would be fine to create a gap for role that excels on a counter heavy/punishment style. For it just to be based around one aspect of that is too focused.

That’s a valid fear but most skills are designed so you can place a reflect at a proper time and then focus on other stuff in the meantime. In my example, once you place your reflect to block projectiles you can move back to killing trash/the boss until it’s your turn to reflect again.

Some vertern reflectors at Wurm will actually focus on killing Vetern wurms while their reflects are on cooldown to give themselves something to do before they need to reflect again, and they of course participate in burn phases like everyone else. Newbie/Solo/Mid-level reflectors sometimes however ignore vertern wurms.

Also currently anywhere in this game where you do not need to emphasis a certain stats or have a certain level of survivability, Zerker gear is the meta set (or Assassins for some classes) so I would argue that if we don’t have different stat sets to diversify meta Raid sets (and I imagine for non-optimized Raids zerker would be valid), Beserker’s armor would rain supreme once again for everyone.

Legendary armor (gained in raids or not) should look like starter armor. Make any new skins separate, so there’s two different goals and you don’t have people wearing the “legendary look” just to prove they have legendary gear.

With regards to the armor duscussion and General raid progression, instead of just making legendary armor, why not have raid rewards allow people to build a stat library for their gear? The stat library seems the most useful over looks as far as progression in my opinion.
– Slowly, one stat set at a time, peice by peice while doing the content. It should be long term right? Replay value and all that stuff.

- players will have access to the different gear stats that they may want to play with without taking up inventory space

- with this everything about a players build is modifiable outside of combat, it allows for more finely tuned encounters as later raids are developed.

- this system could allow for a non traditional “teir” system for raids where a raid that is benefitted by having a certain star set drops the necessary loot for adding that stat set to the stat library.

- encounters could then be developed so that a number of players (not all) using a specific stat set will make the encounter easier (significantly) over other stat sets

- a truly horizontal system of progression (diversifying the player characters utility) while playing the content. No numbers get bigger just adding the ability to fully min max builds at any time out of combat.

I think adding libraries on an individual item basis is a strength and not a time sink, allowing for mix matching and only adding libraries to certain prices to maximize efficiency makes for strategy and such. Also having fully diversified characters gives the developers more power to allow for less room for error by the players

RISKS:
Players wanting only people who have full stat libraries leading to the Lf healer dilemma

Proposal Overview
Potential raid Mechanics: Part 8 Patrols/Trash

Goal of Proposal
To describe the hostile groups of mobs you’ll encounter within a raid

Proposal Functionality

Numbers: A patrol should consist of ~2/3rds the raids total number, enough that its not every person has a counterpart while at the same time not being so few that they can be easily led round in circles while being DPS’d down. I.E for a 15 man raid patrols would consist of 8 mobs.

Composition: The patrols should have a varied and intelligent composition, With different members having different roles: E.G:

Buffer: Applies buffs and heals to the rest of the team, depending on how annoying you want to be retaliation or reflections could be part of this.

Single Targeters: These focus on high damage to one person with a likelyhood of downing them unless they are on the ball.

AoE DPS: Applies pressure to the group as a whole to ensure everyone must stay on their toes.

Aoe Condition applier: Depending on the context of the dungeon the conditions could vary but say poison for Arah, Cripple for Dwarves, Chilled for Elementals etc.

Stunner: Applies stuns to their chosen targets, can be extremely dangerous if it pairs up with a single targeter.

Nuisance: Prioritizes taking out minions/pets/summons as an inconvenience, after which it attacks players.

Corrupter: Rips boons can corrupt heals and generally play havoc with a team.

Summoner: Calls in minions or additional spawns if left alone for too long.

Shielder: Attempts to redirect damage towards it , may have a transfer damage ability to take half of another targets damage.

An example patrol of 8 may consist of:
1 Buffer , 2 Single Targets , 1 Aoe Condi, 1 Aoe DPS , 3 Nuisances

In this situation they’ll want to prioritize taking out the buffer followed by the Aoe condi (as its DOT’s can build up) and then the Aoe DPS. The two risks here are that the single targets take down too many people, or that the nuisances take down all the pets/summons etc leading to the additional pressure from them if the party don’t act fast.

AI
I’d like to see the AI being adaptive to what occurs during the fight, This guardian is giving a large amount of buffs to the team, Single targeter prioritizes him for attack at the early stage. An elementalist then causes Aoe which is leading to high total damage the AI deams this a threat and sends the stunner to counter this. A Mesmer is wreaking havoc with the AoE DPS, the buffer or corrupter identifies this and applies a reflect or corruption leading to the mesmer having to stop attacking or switch target.

Associated Risks
If weaknesses are exposed this may lead to exploits, I.E it’s discovered if two guardians go to either end of a hall and both keep using boon abilities the AI runs between the two allowing easy kills.

I’d prefer legendary armor to be an upgrade to existing armors.

Say, ten tokens upgrade a piece of of exotic armor, two tokens upgrade ascended. Those are just spitball numbers, but the idea is anyone can upgrade, but people who invested in ascended are already “closer” to legendary.

A lot of people are invested in their character’s existing gear.

Legendary armors should have advantages very similar to legendary weapons, and no more. Glows and other special effects, the ability to set stats (especially combos not available in ascended).

Idea: Give people X stat points dynamically assignable to any stat. Customization is good.

Baltzenger.2467:

@Conski Deshan: Hey, about your idea of soft roles for professions, I couldn’t find your post to quote, but, what about Warriors being able to grab weapons found inside the instance? From random rusty weapons of fallen adventurers, to mythical weapons that you have to wield in order to progress?

Sure that sounds like it could be interesting, “The warriors increased strength allows him to wield the ornamental weapons used by some foes and decorating statues”

It actually reminds me I seem to recall back when Gw2 was in development the concept that your size/ weight would play a role, I.E a big bulky character could push a bolder while a smaller character may be able to squeeze through a smaller gap. Am I going crazy or was that a thing?

On that soft profession mechanics are a better idea, the kittenes were just a fun suggestion based off your traditional D and D roles with the Guildwars twist.

Edit: The censor strikes again, The word Hard was followed by the word ones.

phys.7689:

Im kind of opposed to these hyper focused roles that require specific skill/trait setups. especially when that playstyle is very limited.

While from a leader commander role, its cool, on a personal play level it is not.

Reflect should just be a tool within an overall build set/playstyle. It shouldnt become a playstyle within itself. I will tell you on a personal level those type of hyper specific roles tend to make encounters boring(on an individual level). However if the content requires it, people will do it.

• I remember a different game. For this end encounter, the job of the monk(martial class) was to sit in a corner, using a boost skill every 10 seconds, then join the main party, shoot a projectile every 3 minutes and leave the party and begin boosting again. And it was stupid from a player perspective. This was actually a player created solution to a enemy encounter, but imagine if the developers built that to be required? Its not cool at all on a personal play level.
  to be defined by one very small portion of your skillset/playstyle is not very satisfying.

focus more on broader roles, reflect is actually only supposed to be a supplement to a counter heavy, punishment style of play. It would be fine to create a gap for role that excels on a counter heavy/punishment style. For it just to be based around one aspect of that is too focused.

One of the beautiful things about GW2 that can take advantage of more focused roles is how you can change skills and traits on the fly. To continue the Triple Trouble example, once the first phase is done and they’re waiting on the other groups (assuming they aren’t the last group to decapitate) those Condi and reflect teams can, at least theoretically, get out of combat, respec their traits, put on a different set of skills and armor stats, and start the head phase with a build that’s better suited for that part of the fight.

Now for TT, those players only have seconds to do this, but in a raid, you could ask for some professions to do a focused build for one encounter (like reflections, condi damage, boon removal, snares, etc) and not have to be their role for the entire raid; after that, they can go back to their own build, or maybe a different build to fill what’s needed for the next fight skill-wise.

Personally, I usually jump at the call for the chance to fill a role like that, no matter how niche it is (unless I don’t think I have the skill for it, which is why I’ll probably never do reflect for TT :P). Doing things like that makes me feel like I’ve made a meaningful contribution to the raid/group/etc, a feeling I almost never get being Zerker Zergling #23.

Crystal Reid.2481:

Quick note before I run out, but will try to get caught up with things later tonight.

Thanks to everyone who posted their notes on the questions I asked about Timmy’s proposal about Legendary Armor. Most of you guys are already touching base on what we would most likely do if we introduced legendary armor, but I wanted to push the brainstorming aspect of this CDI. It’s great to see everyone is more or less on the same page about this.

Edit: I understand that this post by me is a sidetrack of the current CDI, apologies. Just wanted to respond

I tried to find the post about legendary armor.

Just my quick opinion on it: I wouldn’t want it. Unless legendary armor AND weapons become a bit easier to acquire and a lot less random, no. Just no. Currently to acquire even ascended gear, I need to invest a lot of time into things that I necessarily might not want to do. I’d love to acquire a legendary weapon and after 1500 hours into the game before I took a break, not one precursor. Yet, people run around with multiple complete legendaries.

So again, unless the entire legendary acquisition system is reworked, I don’t want this. Its just another piece of content that I won’t ever accomplish regardless of the hours put in. Not to mention, and no offense, but if Arenanet cannot implement a precursor scavenger hunt or crafting system 2.5 years after launch, I highly doubt you should be looking or even thinking about implementing a legendary armor system. We were told that the precursor <insert acquisition here> would be here by early 2014. Here we are approaching 2015 and no whisper of it. Its an afterthought.

Please focus on making the current game better, and I would love it to not see legendary armor because of the probable RNG wall that I will never be able to climb.

That is, ofcourse, you remove RNG from it and allow us to craft pre cursors via solo-attainable methods (i.e. not requiring some 50 man group or something).

Just my two cents

Pertaining to raids: If something like this were to be in the game, I hope it isn’t locked behind a raid.

Conski Deshan.2057:

Baltzenger.2467:

@Conski Deshan: Hey, about your idea of soft roles for professions, I couldn’t find your post to quote, but, what about Warriors being able to grab weapons found inside the instance? From random rusty weapons of fallen adventurers, to mythical weapons that you have to wield in order to progress?

Sure that sounds like it could be interesting, “The warriors increased strength allows him to wield the ornamental weapons used by some foes and decorating statues”

It actually reminds me I seem to recall back when Gw2 was in development the concept that your size/ weight would play a role, I.E a big bulky character could push a bolder while a smaller character may be able to squeeze through a smaller gap. Am I going crazy or was that a thing?

On that soft profession mechanics are a better idea, the kittenes were just a fun suggestion based off your traditional D and D roles with the Guildwars twist.

Edit: The censor strikes again, The word Hard was followed by the word ones.

I don’t know what other classes had by design, but as an ele if you currently pick up a simple boulder you will have a second skill so you can throw it back at the enemy as a meteor. Such ideas with bundle items and enviromental weapons would be great in every PvE content.

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but curious what people think about environmental objects being used in raids(or any content for that matter..but specifically raids). For example you see a “rock” or a “piece of scrap metal”. When you run around the world you see these objects you can interact with..pick up a piece of rusty metal and swing it at something for …pitiful damage *. Always wondered why these were in the game if they were so weak.

In any case, what about using this feature in a raid. We see something similar in a Fractal where we need to pick up boulders or something to break a shield. Something similar and even expand upon it for a raid.

Thoughts?

To expand on the idea of using combo fields as a raid mechanic:

• In case this system is intended to be parallel to profession requirements you could provide bundles which offer skills that create desired fields
• Not only player – environment interaction (as in: cleanse poisoned area via water fields) is possible but also player – enemy interaction:
  vs regular mobs: create fire fields to get ice spirits to stay away from that spot
  vs bosses: create a dark field to force the enemy lich boss to teleport there
  advanced concept...For maximum difficulty one could harness _player-player-enemy interactions_ this would mean that in this raid environment 2 overlapping combo fields create a special effect. Examples could be: water + fire = steam (to suck light adds like Dust Mites upwards); water + light = rainbow (to mesmerize a simple minded troll); smoke + water = rock music (sorry I couldn't resist)
• As a bossmechanic the presence of bosses could have an effect on the created combo fields in an area surrounding him. For example the frost giant might have the effect that skills like Healing Rain that usually create a water field create an ice field instead and fire fields won’t emerge (I did not list this under player – enemy interaction because this effect would be passive – so there would be no interaction)

guardian.6489:

That’s a valid fear but most skills are designed so you can place a reflect at a proper time and then focus on other stuff in the meantime. In my example, once you place your reflect to block projectiles you can move back to killing trash/the boss until it’s your turn to reflect again.

Some vertern reflectors at Wurm will actually focus on killing Vetern wurms while their reflects are on cooldown to give themselves something to do before they need to reflect again, and they of course participate in burn phases like everyone else. Newbie/Solo/Mid-level reflectors sometimes however ignore vertern wurms.

Also currently anywhere in this game where you do not need to emphasis a certain stats or have a certain level of survivability, Zerker gear is the meta set (or Assassins for some classes) so I would argue that if we don’t have different stat sets to diversify meta Raid sets (and I imagine for non-optimized Raids zerker would be valid), Beserker’s armor would rain supreme once again for everyone.

and thats the thing, reflect has nothing to do with gear/playstyle. You just shoehorn it in.
This is why condi isnt as bad, however, i dont think enemies should require condi or take 2 hours.

Im not saying these things should be useless, but there is a difference between an enemy being weak to conditions, and an enemy being virtually impervious to physical damage.

Getting back to the overall point, i would advise level designers to keep away from very specific gimmicks, although its fine to have these gimmicks be useful ways of dealing with a problem.

For example, dont make a room you have to stealth by.
but do make a room that its a lot easier to avoid enemies if done properly.
methods for getting past it would include
stealth/swiftness to key areas
plain old timing/line of sight
rip through them all and fight the waves
side objectives that distract them. (single player causes a avalanche then zip lines to the exit)
careful pulling of certain teams.

basically start with high level goals, then give players methods for using their skillsets to succeed at that goal.
some examples:

• Get by this room with minimal agro.
• Counter key skills, and punish the enemy for mistakes, predicting/reacting right
• Attrition war.
• must survive waves

you dont want things like, only do dmg while you have protect up! Thats too specific.

Crystal Reid.2481:

Thanks for bumping this and bringing to my attention. That is definitely a cool idea, but of course it does touch a little on the topic of gear progression. So here are some more questions for you with regards to your proposal:

• Is Legendary armor better than Ascended armor stat wise?
• Can this legendary armor be obtained anywhere else in the game?
• How do we prevent the introduction of Legendary armor from invalidating players who spent a lot of time/money crafting their Ascended armor?
• Is this a drop from raid encounters, or is it obtained through a “raiding reward track”?

I think you can see where I’m going with this. Ascended armor is already a pretty hotly debated topic because it did introduce a very slight vertical progression to the game.

Honestly its kind of unfair for the majority of the player base to talk about legendary armor on page 22 of a raid cdi (I think it deserves its own cdi).

any how my thoughts are thus on legendary armor:

• Is Legendary armor better than Ascended armor stat wise?

as Colin Johanson said BEFORE the game was released:

Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base. The rare stuff becomes the really awesome looking armours. It’s all about collecting the unique looking stuff and collecting all the other rare collectable items in the game.

I think that statement was what made people mad about ascended armor being added to the game in the first place because at launch you had exotics and they were supposed to be the bis.

On this same thread the sat switching should be added to ascended armor for the very reason that legendary were suppose to be just a unique looking skins like how prestigious armor in gw1 worked.

• Can this legendary armor be obtained anywhere else in the game?

Yes you should be able to get it any place in the game Is also a huge reason why ascended armor is a problem in the game the ways you can get it are from extremely rare rng drops or from crafting it which is not something wvw players necessarily want to be doing (most of them want to be playing wvw)

• How do we prevent the introduction of Legendary armor from invalidating players who spent a lot of time/money crafting their Ascended armor?

Make ALL Ascended armor be the precursor to legendary this allows for precursor crafting for legendary armor and also reduces the rng involved in getting it.

• Is this a drop from raid encounters, or is it obtained through a “raiding reward track”?

as per the second question nope it should be acquirable anyplace in the game a wvw player should not have to do raids to be able to get legendary armor.

On the topic of combo fields, what if Raids included combo fields of new types… for example, a Draconic Energy Field which gives new effects for each finisher type? Perhaps these combo fields could be created by environmental weapons, so certain players may choose to carry and use the bundle to create the new fields?

That ties together a few different things: using advanced game mechanics, using bundles and other environmental weapons, and allowing some choice and flexibility in class and role.

Coff coff…. did everyone forgot we all did get a new skill in the tower of nightmares update? Was a lame one and not very useful/used, but it opens the door for a… Brainstorm!

I’m personally against the use of reflects for a Raid, I always though it’s an easymode legal of cheating against most enemies. I can’t enjoy a fight where reflects are used to skip what a real tough fight would had been. But that’s only my opinnion, so… my consctructive suggestion is: If you really need reflects for a raid, make sure all proffesions got one skill that reflect, or add a new skill that covers that up for every proffesion.

(and btw, I don’t know who said earlier that warriors can’t reflect. Warriors can reflect with mace 2 + sword 5 and trait V on defense, it just works with 1 projectile like mai trin steleport, not massive projectiles like lupicus attacks)

timmyf.1490:

On the topic of combo fields, what if Raids included combo fields of new types… for example, a Draconic Energy Field which gives new effects for each finisher type? Perhaps these combo fields could be created by environmental weapons, so certain players may choose to carry and use the bundle to create the new fields?

That ties together a few different things: using advanced game mechanics, using bundles and other environmental weapons, and allowing some choice and flexibility in class and role.

I like new fields, but not the bundles part. A new skill that blast draconic fields for every player sounds awesome though.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Yes we should definitely discuss the environment in regard to encounters.

Bundles, interactions etc.

Chris

To me environmental weapons have a huge potential in GW2 for horizontal progression. Each of those weapons could work like engineer-bundles, giving players the power to switch the new skill with your weapon whenever you want. Sort of like the stolen thief-skill.

Keeping it you a special bag and safe it until you need it would increase the usability immensly imho. Personally I don’t like the breaking mechanic though, instead an option could be: auto-switch back to your normal weapon when you’ve used the environmental weapon skill and let it go on cooldown; as soon as the e.v. is ready again you can switch back to it.

These weapons would not act as an increase in power for the player but rather as an increased skill-pool. Not usable in PvP/WvW. Environmental weapon kits could take an utility skill slot and/or an elite skill slot.

Conski Deshan.2057:

Crystal Reid.2481:

• How often should raids in GW2 reset?
• Should we also include the option to extend lockouts for groups that progress slower?

I don’t really see a reason for raids to reset or lockout unless manually chosen, I was under the impression that those mechanics were in play to stunt the speed at which vertical progression occurred in games with it.
In GW2 I don’t really see the function of it, I may be missing something though?

Well, the reason I see it having a reset is because, it keeps the content alive alot longer since you only get to kill the boss once a week/every two week and get the oppotunity to keep trying the boss for a whole week before you have to get to that boss again.
And along the way, it should not be 100% chance to get the new attractive item which again adds to the content being fresh for a longer time because you really really want that item.

With regards to “Foundational raiding mechanics based on the core combat and movement of GW2” Hopefully this is on point.

After reading the summary posted, the idea of roaming mobs stood out to me as immensely enjoyable.

1. It provides variety and challenge. Players must stay alert. Patrols can come together in just the wrong way or can be singled out.

2. Knowledge of map/patrols becomes important. Makes avoiding groups of enemies feel like part of the challenge rather than some weird speed-run tactic.

3. Makes the map feel alive and less static. Not just a series of rooms with various setups.

4. Huge callback to GW1. Certain elements like elite units that provide temp buffs if defeated, but can be avoided.

5. Potential for new styles of content and great atmosphere. Two armies of NPCs moving towards each other adds a time constraint to assassinate a general. A deadly enemy group is actively hunting you, or your NPC. Or NPCs are just going about doing whatever for atmosphere alone. In either case it is much more interesting than static mobs.

cesmode.4257:

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but curious what people think about environmental objects being used in raids(or any content for that matter..but specifically raids). For example you see a “rock” or a “piece of scrap metal”. When you run around the world you see these objects you can interact with..pick up a piece of rusty metal and swing it at something for …pitiful damage *. Always wondered why these were in the game if they were so weak.

In any case, what about using this feature in a raid. We see something similar in a Fractal where we need to pick up boulders or something to break a shield. Something similar and even expand upon it for a raid.

Thoughts?

You shouldnt stops only on offensive suff , but they might be used as minigames :P
For example when they boss freeze all the meele players , he will play some ‘’mind -games’’ with them before he attacks those frozen stunned players with a frenzy of attacks.

Such as you can play ‘’rock-scissor-paper’’ minigame with him , and on the walls there could be some ‘’hard- to see shadow visual clues’’ from a friendly dead warrior spirit that is always moving around the cealing , reaviling the boss old habits about what ’’element’’ he will choose .

And you get more a boost damage when you succed , otherwise you will loose hp from the frenzy of ttacks , while you are stunned

I am trying to find some ’’story’’ from the boss i am trying to create 2 days nows , but its a pain in the kitten
Oh well back to drinking …

Remember that blank Battle of LA post I made like 10 pages ago? I’m going to use it to show how we could add soft Roles to a Raid.

guardian.6489:

Phase one: Neutralize Scarlet’s armies in key areas!
The fight begins with all 3 Parties starting off from the North entry location. They need to work together to take Fort Marriner, Trader’s Forum and Postern Ward.

Recycled mechanics: Scarlet’s Alliances attacking each of the locations.
The Molten Protector returns and has that same Invul shield you need to push people out of to damage them.

New Mechanics:
Husks spawn in Toxic Alliance area. They take little non-condition damage and have immobilizing and launching attacks. They also deal significant melee damage.
Toxic Warlocks in Toxic Alliance area: Spams a debuff that deals damage and increases damage for every condition your suffering from.
A Molten Portal spawn and spam AoE projectiles in the Molten area. They’re invincible but you can block the projectiles from them, they fire in a cone similar to the TT wurm (a.k.a in a cone with one origin point).
An Aetherblade Striker Champion which spawns in the aetherblade area has a buffed Arc Lightening that has a longer wind-up (and obvious tell) which can send you from 100% to downed very quickly but can be interupted easily once you break through his defiance.
Aetherblade Air cannons (you remember the laser) will fire occasionally at players in the Aetherblade area which means players will always have to move.

Phase two: Stop the miasma deployment!

Three Miasma events spawn and the Raid party must deal with all 3 at the same time in a set time limit! If they fail one of the events they Miasma event the Raid will Fail/restart the event/lose out on bonus loot (pick one or add your own).

Recycled mechanics: The same Scarlet Alliance minions attack the Miasma locations

New Mechanics:
Same new type of mobs spawn in their Miasma locations

Phase three: Scarlet’s generals are out in the open. Kill them.

Recycled Mechanics:
The Toxic Spider, Aetherblade Cannoneer and Flame shaman have the same mechanics
New Mechanics:
Toxic Warlock: Has the same new Debuff that does more damage the more conditions you have on you and spams conditions with his attacks.
Molten Munitions Specialist: Has a phase where he does nothing but spam AoE projectiles similar to the molten portal which can be reflected.
Aetherblade Admiral: Has the same Charge up Super Arc Lightening Attack as regular Champion Strikers.

Phase Four: Scarlet has unleashed her assault knights to stop the Lionguard.
The 3 Assault Knights spawn, and the Raid must defeat all 3 to the final battle with Scarlet.
Recycled Mechanics: The Three Assault Knights model and some of their attacks.
The Blue Assault Knight itself is the same as the classic open world version of the fight.

New Mechanics:
The Green Assault Knight, takes more damage the more conditions are inflicted on it. Otherwise it has a lot of toughness.
The Red Assault Knight has a powerful Slam attack that spends a shockwave which deals a lot of damage however it has a long wind-up and can be interupted if Deviance is burnt through. Also you can just jump over the wave. The Red Assault knight also does not have the Condi-reflect/Condi crash mechanic.
Menders spawn around the Blue Assault Knight and try to heal it however they can be knocked back easily.

Phase Five: Defeat Scarlet’s Prime Hologram

All 3 Teams come together for the Final Battle with Scarlet’s Hologram

Recycled mechanics: T You know what just watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8odoXDBRhsk. I can’t explain it well enough

New Mechanics: After taking some damage in Phase 1 Scarlet will rotate between 3 attacks.
“Firing Molten Cannons” 2 Damage-able Cannon structures spawn that spam AoE projectiles that deal a lot of damage and have a short lasting damage field. Reflects will be required until they can be killed.
“Aetherblade Air Cannon open” That Aetherblade Air Laser Cannon starts shooting 4 people at once for a some-what lengthy period of time.
“Toxic Husk reinforcements available” 3 of those Toxic Husks discussed earlier spawn around the area and probably will knock people into the AoEs if left unchecked.

Phase Two:
Static Hologram: Spams projectiles AoEs (exactly the same as the old version) but all over the arena, they can be reflected.
Dynamics Hologram: Has a powerful Arc-lightening attack that hits 3 players in the area at a time but can be interupted (same as Aetherblade).
Synergenics Hologram: Has Dynamic’s Condition weakened shield from the original fight. Has a wave attack that inflict’s the Toxic Warlock Debuff and various conditions (can be jumped over).

Phase 3: Same as the Old Finale except all 3 Phase 1 new mechanics spawn at the same time!

So basically what I was going for was a consistent set of roles for each of teams.

I wonder why they moved that far away from GW1 in many aspects

like the skill-variety of mobs
like patrolling mobs
like mob-groups

Maybe there was a reason for doing so and it wouldn’t work well with GW2’s gameplay?!

Personally I love to challenge myself with soloing the patrolling mob-group (yes, it’s there, but rarely seen http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Champion_Victurus_the_Shattered) of branded creatures with the champ in the brand.

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

I wonder why they moved that far away from GW1 in many aspects

like the skill-variety of mobs
like patrolling mobs
like mob-groups

Maybe there was a reason for doing so and it wouldn’t work well with GW2’s gameplay?!

I feel like the Open World element is what changed this. Having mostly patrolling mob groups could be convoluted and unwieldy in a persistent world. But with Raiding the content would be Instanced (personal assumption), which in my mind would be perfect for incorporating the aspects you mentioned.

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Guild Story!
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I’d say a mix of the deep/Urgoz and UW/FoW would be a great raid. UW/FoW for the raid environment (quests, bosses, massive, no set route) and the deep/urgoz mainly for the penalty system it used.

for the sake of further ideas, would someone be so kind and explain to me GW1s raids in a few words. I’ve watched Woodenpotatoes Underworld-vids and it looked quite boring to me, to be honest. I’m not sure if I get what eveyone loved about these.

What I know about it:

• it’s instanced and a big map with possibilites to teleport (just like our GW2 maps)
• there are 10 quests you can finish (aren’t events superior to quests?)
• there are some hard enemies (quite similar to Cursed Shore)

What’s the difference? Those seem to me a bit like GW2s lv.80 maps, maybe a bit more difficult.

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

for the sake of further ideas, would someone be so kind and explain to me GW1s raids in a few words. I’ve watched Woodenpotatoes Underworld-vids and it looked quite boring to me, to be honest. I’m not sure if I get what eveyone loved about these.

What I know about it:

• it’s instanced and a big map with possibilites to teleport (just like our GW2 maps)
• there are 10 quests you can finish (aren’t events superior to quests?)
• there are some hard enemies (quite similar to Cursed Shore)

What’s the difference? Those seem to me a bit like GW2s lv.80 maps, maybe a bit more difficult.

Just think of them as elite zones. With unique and good rewards. And no open world interference. Thats whats so appealing. It would be nice to have a very challenging explorable zone which is instanced with various quests/events and bosses. Which is the appeal.

An idea to provide some gameplay for the “kiter” raid role

I don’t think one mechanic that is repeated in every raid can cut it for the “kiter” raid role. So my goal here is to provide an example for a job the kiters could fulfil at one specific boss.
The basic premise is that picking up a certain bundle will give you aggro of the bossand that you can throw it to other players (preferably the other designated kiters). It’s basically Kegbrawl.
The boss scenario could be an enraged norn trying to get to his ale (the bundle) or a rhyno chasing you as you steal his baby (bundle).
While this concept already got used repeatedly e.g. in dry top or in Arah I am of the opinion that it would work in a bossfight, too. Also, I think that it would have a different feeling to it as it is more about the adrenalin rush when the boss charges you than about tactitally using your skills (kegbrawl) or watching your hp bar (arah).

An idea to provide some out of the ordinary gameplay for the “runner” raid role

When thinking about a “runner” I guess everybody thinks about running horizontally. But what about falling? While you are falling you still have some level of control over your character. This can be used to avoid obstacles mid air. The diving google achievement in dry top aleady has some elements of it – just imagine more obstacles and an even longer fall.
A possible scenario could be a boss on steroids knocking the runners up or – more rationally – the runners jump off an airship.

Quote: “Runner: When things require you move fast this is your guy!”