Guild Wars 2

Lilith Ajit.6173:

I just think 2 weeks is a bit too long for this thread. IMO, of course.

While I’d love to “get on with it” I don’t think we’ll know the value of the extra days until the thread is done.

I actually want to go back and re-read the first evolution thread (link in the CDI sticky), because like “Please include a Primer”, I suspect there are still some bits from the first Evolution-go-round that have value not yet incorporated.

We also haven’t said anything about the push to have players write the summary/Proposal in future threads. There is a visible need to move that out of the Host-Devs hand to avoid confusion out in the media (“A red-name said it, it MUST BE what’s coming next for GW2!!1!”). I took a crack at it for demonstration purposes and wasn’t on the right track. Others thought they had a grasp on it and I hope they can help us all figure it out.

There is also a standing issue of what (if anything) should be done to help the folks putting in the hours to chronicle and summarize the threads in progress. Those people have asked DIRECTLY for our feedback and I know I haven’t had anything useful to offer other than gratitude for the time spent (I do use them to trace back through the thread for things I might have missed on the read forward).

And long ago I made the not-quite-joking observation that I’d take a few laurels and some a couple-thousand essence of luck as recompense for opportunities missed in-game while typing here. It’s not a big deal, but it would at least be interesting to consider possible forms of “Thank you for your support” beyond a written pat on the head.

timmyf.1490:

we should discuss here: how do we try to keep the discussion on-topic

This is a collaborate effort where people can simply report a post that is completely off topic. A moderator can decide whether or not this is true.

Another part is the actual individual that, as you so clearly formulate, should have the common sense to see the scope of these discussions, and act accordingly. Aka. not post off topic things, nor respond to off topic things so the thread won’t move even more off topic. Instead, see if you can find ways to put the discussion back on it’s tracks.

timmyf.1490:

we should discuss here: how do we try to keep the discussion respectful

In our current ‘selfy’ and ‘entitled’ age this will be a kittene. But in a sense the same things apply. Report disrespectful posts, and keep the scope of this discussion into consideration, and act accordingly.

timmyf.1490:

we should discuss here: how do we try to keep the discussion manageable?

By using the tools available through the board (aka. the report button), instead of responding back in a disrespectful manner, dragging the thread even further down the drain.

This in the end comes down to each and everyone’s individual stance, the thread can only be manageable if people themselves act in a way that it doesn’t need to be managed. Suck up your emotions, hit a door, walk away outside and take a deep breath, meditate for a moment, there are many ways to regain reason over emotion… And even emotions can be formulated in a more respectful way.

What also helps is putting the goal of the thread and the process above your personal goal and simply accept that you can’t always have things your way. And that that in itself is not a reason to throw a fit or get all worked up. Not saying that you can’t respectfully mention that you don’t agree with what is being concluded of course… If we would all agree there wouldn’t be any reason to discuss anything.

videoboy.4162:

@ Arghore

But the thread is about you right? Because, even though the rest of us with lives find the time to post our thoughts, we’re supposed to add an entire week to the discussion, just to appease YOUR schedule. No.

In line with what I just said, I will address this…

Listen Videoboy, while I do see your point in regards to this specific thread, that reached some kind of point where most has already been said (but as you can see by my post and the first post on this page, not everything). The 2 week limit will be crossed with normal discussions on most of the CDI topics anyways, so the ‘two weeks is to long stance’ only applies to discussions with very narrow scopes. Which, in regards to feedback and out of the box thinking are not the best ways of going about these. Aka. a broad scope works much better when you want a broad range of feedback and opinions…

The second thing, and that is not about ‘me’, is that setting a minimum of 2 weeks, will make the whole process much more ‘time’-manageable for ANet and Chris in particular.

The third thing, in regards it not being about ‘me’ is that there are more people then just me that have lives outside GW2 and more specifically outside of the GW2 board. That shouldn’t mean that the CDI process should just ignore these people’s ‘right’ (in a sense) to have their lives taken into account in regards to whether or not they get a chance to even contribute…

So yes, on some level I agree that for this particular CDI discussion the period of 2 weeks as a minimum may well (still) be to long. On the other hand, there are still things ‘up in the air’ so to speak. And really two weeks, is it that much of a problem to wait 6 days. Or even 2 weeks, if you would take into account that the next CDI would start a week after this one has ended. What is two weeks on a lifetime, what is two weeks even on the lifetime of GW2 (assuming of course we all intend our feedback to make it ‘last for ever’).

And if it turns out that these CDI threads only provide sensible feedback and discussion for a period of 9 days. Then I would suggest ‘we’ (yes you and me) to file a request to start every CDI thread on a ‘Friday’, meaning that each CDI can last about 10/11days and still include 2 weekends. Hmm? How about that … because in all honesty, I never said 2 weeks, I asked for 2 weekends, so that I have time to give my feedback, and time to respond to anybody that responded to me (as I think that is the most respectful way of communicating).

If CDI threads start on a Friday and last a minimum of 10days (aka close the 2nd Monday there after). There would be a 4 to 5 day window to select a new topic and start the next CDI on the Friday there after.

edit: And if I miss the first weekend, I can still try and find time to check during the week, (maybe not respond), so that I can think about my feedback and post it the next weekend. Which is basically all I ask for in this regard, and not just for me, enough time for people to post their feedback…

I have no problem with CDI’s lasting two weeks or longer, so long as discussion warrants it. Some of them have already gone on much longer than that.

What I do have a problem with, is people coming into the threads and complaining that the CDIs doesn’t adhere to their schedule and insulting the people that care enough to make time to participate during the established time frame and insinuating (or flat out stating) that those participants have no lives and are selfish for trying to follow the established schedule. Especially when those people seem to find the time to post, quite often, in other forum threads.

And, even if we ended up with a CDI that was only a week long, 168 hours is plenty of time for someone to post something. However, I’m somehow selfish and/or rude for trying to follow the rules of the thread and not asking for it to be retailored to fit my life schedule. I must be awful.

This post has been snipped as the content did not have anything contributing to this CDI

I have no personal issue with you. The thing is, while you’re not the only one saying these things, you are the one that called me out by name. Therefore, I responded. >shrug<

And, seeing as to how my posts have been about the time frame of these CDIs and their workings, No, I am not taking this thread off topic.

Part of this post has been snipped as it did not pertain to the CDI

So then, lets end this one-on-one and conclude one thing in regards to the CDI process:

The CDI is best to start on a Friday

which will give the highest chance to include two weekends into the discussion and thus giving those that (on average, and in general) only have the weekends available to dive into GW2 issues a chance to respond. Setting up the CDI in this manner will also mean that discussions that don’t need a long time to discuss can be closed after 10days which include 2 weekends.

Have a nice evening, I will dive into GW2 for now, as I meant to get a bit of game time in tonight… and there isn’t much time left in the night (for me at least).

Interesting, if you go back and your posts, you’ll notice that there are other people that you seem to think are making “emotional” attacks on you. It would probably be in your best interests to realize, that when you phrase your posts the way that you do, you’re going to receive negative feedback.

I wasn’t even the one that pointed you out, until you called me out by name and tried to twist everything until it appeared that I had been personally attacking you. Even the post you made “apologizing” to me was completely backhanded.

Either accept responsibility for your actions and participate in the thread as it was designed or go play victim somewhere else.

Yeah just to clarify I called out “the one person who wanted this thread to go on for two weeks”. All me.

If the thread is gonna go on, try to keep this on topic.

@ Nike

We also haven’t said anything about the push to have players write the summary/Proposal in future threads. There is a visible need to move that out of the Host-Devs hand to avoid confusion out in the media (“A red-name said it, it MUST BE what’s coming next for GW2!!1!”).

It makes me sad that the Devs have to keep mentioning that nothing in these threads is concrete. I feel like we could all brainstorm so much better, if we could all get on the same page about that. Just think of all the viable ideas we might actually come up with, if we realized that nothing we had discussed so far was a promise. LOL

timmyf.1490:

The people using this thread to complain about other threads.

I’m going to try to phrase this using some techniques often used in counseling.

When people use the CDI thread to try to attract developer attention to a personal complaint, e.g. the Fractal reset, it upsets me. I feel that it distracts from the discussion we are attempting to have. I feel that it is disrespectful of the time and energy many of us put into the CDI thread. I feel that it comes from a place of entitlement: “Developer! I know you are here! Respond to me!”

Because this CDI Process Evolution thread is about improving the CDI topics to be more useful for both ArenaNet and the community, I believe it is a relevant topic that we should discuss here: how do we try to keep the discussion on-topic, respectful, and manageable?

yes this is exactly my point if an issue that is offtopic is being ignored in the area it belongs, it will be brought up inside the cdi. The proper place to talk about the fractal reset was in the large amount of threads on it and in the subforum devoted to the fractured release, but since no one from anet was there to have the discussion it was brought to the cdi where it does not belong. The same thing happened for the wvw cdi someone should have been paying attention in it but they weren’t so someone derailed the other cdi for a few pages until it got attention. If they do not address the watchwork pick problems expect it to show up in the next cdi and to the detriment of the discussion. Its great that everyone says this off topic stuff doesn’t belong in the cdi but until there is not functional communication outside of this area it will continue to show up in the cdi.

I will point out in the matter of the Fractal Reset, it was raised at the time when vertical progression in the game was the topic, and the host at that time said they’d think on it and respond at a later date. It did become something of a hanging issue even as the main focus moved on.

I tend to think it was an unfortunate situation all around, as more could have been done to turn the most ardent of the original Fractal Delvers into walking signposts for the glories that await those who try them out now through a combination of skins and specialized titles.

“Cool title, where’d you get it?”
“Doing fractals – you have to get to level 70”
“I thought they only go to 50?”
“That’s the limit right now, but they’re gonna open up deeper ones in the future…”
“Neat! I’ll have to try those out. Thanks for the info!”

Missed opportunity. But maybe they’ll make good at some point.

Random thought on rewards for participation. Maybe the host can flag people for a title in game: “Concerned. Dedicated. Involved.”

Set it to decay after a few months (3?) and it’ll be a fun conversation piece in-game. I’d like for more people there to find out what we’re up to on their behalf .

I would love a Reddit style system where the most popular comments get voted to the top for more people to see. In fact, if the tech is too hard to build out here, future CDIs could even be posted on Reddit instead of here, to make use of that functionality.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Yeah just to clarify I called out “the one person who wanted this thread to go on for two weeks”. All me.

If the thread is gonna go on, try to keep this on topic.

I just looked back and you are right, I just skimmed the previous page and it seems you were quoted, so I sort of picked up that sentence with Videoboys name next to it. I am sorry to drag you into this.

It be nice if we can please get back on topic (which I been trying to do the whole time), now while there was at least one positive constructive result from this bickering, I am quite done with it now … So lets move on and help this thread forward.

Let’s say ArenaNet actually limits what you can type when making your thread…
What will become of my Combat Guide 101 that I worked so much on?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/players/GW2-Combat-system-101-Guide/first

I put a lot of effort to make this contribution… =(

Arghore.8340:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Yeah just to clarify I called out “the one person who wanted this thread to go on for two weeks”. All me.

If the thread is gonna go on, try to keep this on topic.

I just looked back and you are right, I just skimmed the previous page and it seems you were quoted, so I sort of picked up that sentence with Videoboys name next to it. I am sorry to drag you into this.

It be nice if we can please get back on topic (which I been trying to do the whole time), now while there was at least one positive constructive result from this bickering, I am quite done with it now … So lets move on and help this thread forward.

Calling me out again and then sending me a insult as a private message is not keeping things on topic. I had already moved my discussion posts forward.

Could someone please remind me what focus this thread is on now. My thought train has been completely derailed. Is it now participation rewards? Thanks to anyone willing to help me out. =)

I’d like to elaborate on the brainstorming that the CDI’s facilitate, and the time zones that most of the brainstorming is done in. Being on the other side of the world and posting at a certain time (I have no option as to when I post, it’s the only time I can) I feel I miss out on the majority of the ideas thrown about and can’t really contribute to the ongoing nature of the threads because most of the time, someone else will have come up with my idea already.

The nature of these CDI’s is that dev’s tend to only get back to the people with the best ideas for a topic and I find this quite sad. This sends the wrong message. Everyone needs acknowledgement for their time given in this thread, no matter what time you may be able to post and if you happen to catch a dev online at that time. Our time should be as valuable as their’s when contributing to these topics.

Note that this isn’t about me personally – this is about those smaller voices out there that are never heard and their ideas ultimately thrown aside. While we’re not being communicated with (and thus acknowledged), you’ll find that CDI topics are mostly a breeding ground for lurkers.

Valandil Dragonhart.2371:

I’d like to elaborate on the brainstorming that the CDI’s facilitate, and the time zones that most of the brainstorming is done in. Being on the other side of the world and posting at a certain time (I have no option as to when I post, it’s the only time I can) I feel I miss out on the majority of the ideas thrown about and can’t really contribute to the ongoing nature of the threads because most of the time, someone else will have come up with my idea already..

One thing you may want to attempt, that has helped some of the rest of us:

If someone else posts your idea, don’t be afraid to go ahead an quote them and expand upon the idea with pieces they may not have thought to post. When you do this, you follow along with the exact purpose that these CDIs are for: Brainstorming. Also, once the person sees that you’ve gotten them (even if it’s much later) they’ll want to reply to you and, most likely, expand on your additions.

This constant back and forth, and adding to the ideas, sets up the best discussions we’ve ended up having. Those are also the posts and ideas that the Devs seems to notice the most and then they join in too.

TL;DR? Even if you think you can only add a little (due to your Time Zone) POST ANYWAY!! =D

Chris Whiteside.6102:

I think the discussion is still good and valuable so I will keep the thread open.

I am still thinking about topic resolution based on the ongoing conversation.

Chris

Can we have anything addressed with fractals? Specifically about reset and dredge fractals. The longer it takes the less importance it has and many have given up completely. Yet the team still makes nerfs to different parts of fractals making it harder day by day. The promise that dredge fractal will be balanced was completely left in dust as well. I don’t feel comfortable doing CDI on the topic because I know it’ll turn into something that will be quickly closed and forgotten because of people that want something to happen fighting with people that are denying them the right to ask about it. Rather, I’d love to hear you guys’ opinion on dredge fractal and the reset that happened and nothing was made right to compensate for that. Just addressing the issue would be something, because frankly I’m slowly joining the group that is giving up and forgetting about it completely…

Hope I’m not asking for too much.

Valandil Dragonhart.2371:

Everyone needs acknowledgement for their time given in this thread…

That’s really not the point. Every post gets read by the Host. That’s the social contract. Its open mic night on the big stage. Bring your best game, but applause is not a given. The opportunity is its own reward.

I appreciate the desire to get confirmation that your offering has been read. It can be hard to have faith. But posting for the purpose of getting a Dev response – to demand acknowledgement for every time you click ‘reply’ – is missing the point. The point is to be heard. That is how you change the course of the game to something more to your liking.

The highest acknowledgment never takes place on these boards anyway – it takes place when the Live Servers present the realization of our ideas to a million users. The point is to make a better game to share and enjoy.

…no matter what time you may be able to post and if you happen to catch a dev online at that time. Our time should be as valuable as their’s when contributing to these topics.

I respect the principle, but what is your practical solution? Do we bar the host from looking at the thread for 12 hours after they start replying? Do we go with the lowest common denominator because the only way to “be fair” is to not have any kind of interaction in real-time because there is always someone somewhere that is asleep or at work?

Note that this isn’t about me personally – this is about those smaller voices out there that are never heard and their ideas ultimately thrown aside.

Where is this presumption that “they’re never heard” coming from? Their words are in the sequence, the same as everyone else’s.

While we’re not being communicated with (and thus acknowledged), you’ll find that CDI topics are mostly a breeding ground for lurkers.

If a person thinks there’ no point in putting their thoughts out there unless it results in getting their very own personal Dev-post reply, I think you have to consider the possibility that person is not ready for the big stage.

I get it people are nervous. I want the process to be welcoming (which is why I cringe at strict formatting). But ultimately, if you want to be heard… You. Must. Speak.

Romo.3709:

Can we have anything addressed with fractals?

In this thread? Probably not.

Romo.3709:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

I think the discussion is still good and valuable so I will keep the thread open.

I am still thinking about topic resolution based on the ongoing conversation.

Chris

Can we have anything addressed with fractals? Specifically about reset and dredge fractals. The longer it takes the less importance it has and many have given up completely. Yet the team still makes nerfs to different parts of fractals making it harder day by day. The promise that dredge fractal will be balanced was completely left in dust as well. I don’t feel comfortable doing CDI on the topic because I know it’ll turn into something that will be quickly closed and forgotten because of people that want something to happen fighting with people that are denying them the right to ask about it. Rather, I’d love to hear you guys’ opinion on dredge fractal and the reset that happened and nothing was made right to compensate for that. Just addressing the issue would be something, because frankly I’m slowly joining the group that is giving up and forgetting about it completely…

Hope I’m not asking for too much.

I second this.

@Nike I think Romo meant in the next CDI

Valandil Dragonhart.2371:

I’d like to elaborate on the brainstorming that the CDI’s facilitate, and the time zones that most of the brainstorming is done in. Being on the other side of the world and posting at a certain time (I have no option as to when I post, it’s the only time I can) I feel I miss out on the majority of the ideas thrown about and can’t really contribute to the ongoing nature of the threads because most of the time, someone else will have come up with my idea already.

The nature of these CDI’s is that dev’s tend to only get back to the people with the best ideas for a topic and I find this quite sad. This sends the wrong message. Everyone needs acknowledgement for their time given in this thread, no matter what time you may be able to post and if you happen to catch a dev online at that time. Our time should be as valuable as their’s when contributing to these topics.

Note that this isn’t about me personally – this is about those smaller voices out there that are never heard and their ideas ultimately thrown aside. While we’re not being communicated with (and thus acknowledged), you’ll find that CDI topics are mostly a breeding ground for lurkers.

I think that the +1 system could be enough. Perhaps the +1 system could use some tweaks though:

• Numbers (how many +1’s have been given? Is this information already available for devs?)
• Dev +1’s (to be given by devs to quickly reward awesome feedback)
• A search function for popular posts within the thread with more than X +1’s (once general forum search gets fixed)
• A clear request from the host to have people click that like button. Since it can give arenanet valuable information and help steer the thread.

As for why this may work better than a personal response in a post:

• This takes less time, making it easier to manage a colossal thread.
• When you don’t follow the thread every minute, you probably find yourself catching up on the thread. Often you’ll find a great idea that you wish to elaborate on, but the thread took a different direction. Now your feedback regarding that idea would break up the current flow.
• Sometimes an idea is presented perfectly and all we can say is: ‘Yes! So much this!’ But if everyone did so, it would double the amount of pages on the thread, scaring off newcomers.

As for everyone being rewarded for their time:

We do need a way to seperate the good ideas from the mediocre ideas. If every idea gets a similar response from the devs, I would seriously start to doubt their honesty. I would also feel the need to break down bad ideas more aggressively in order to let the devs know that an idea is terrible. (Which is something that could really wreck the positive vibe that the CDI has)

I’m sorry, maybe the information I’m seeking is written somewhere right in front of me and I’m just blind. But what does the “+1” stand for?

So far, I could think of two possibilities:
1) In my opinion, this post clearly states some important points
2) I support the opinion expressed in this post

In the first case I don’t see the relevance of a “-1.”
The little flag with the tooltip “Report this Post” fulfills this role (marking a post as completely useless for the discussion), or does it not?

As for the second case, the current method of applying “-1” would be to create a post with the own opinion and to let others press “+1.” That sounds reasonable for me.

All in all, I’m rather new to forums and might have mistaken something. But I hope to be able to participate and this seems to be a tool for doing so which I don’t exactly understand.

Romo.3709:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

I think the discussion is still good and valuable so I will keep the thread open.

I am still thinking about topic resolution based on the ongoing conversation.

Chris

Can we have anything addressed with fractals? Specifically about reset and dredge fractals. The longer it takes the less importance it has and many have given up completely. Yet the team still makes nerfs to different parts of fractals making it harder day by day. The promise that dredge fractal will be balanced was completely left in dust as well. I don’t feel comfortable doing CDI on the topic because I know it’ll turn into something that will be quickly closed and forgotten because of people that want something to happen fighting with people that are denying them the right to ask about it. Rather, I’d love to hear you guys’ opinion on dredge fractal and the reset that happened and nothing was made right to compensate for that. Just addressing the issue would be something, because frankly I’m slowly joining the group that is giving up and forgetting about it completely…

Hope I’m not asking for too much.

I’d really like a CDI about fractals as well, there are many things that could be improved there, like the rewards and as you mention the dredge fractal (I think that’s the only part of the game at the moment where I always get angry when I play it).

About the reset, I think they reset everyone back to 30 since they introduced new mechanics to levels above 30, and it would be unfair to grant people completion of these challenges when they had completed a different challenge and not these particular challenges (don’t know if that’s the actual reason, but it seems fair).

Nike are you quite finished breaking down my post?

Given the lack of dev responses forum-wide, no I don’t think it’s too much to ask for some acknowledgement of an idea that is posted. Further elaboration can be given if needed and expanded upon after that (ie. collaboration), but I want to know I’m being heard first and foremost. Anything that a dev says ’they’ve read’ can be just glanced over without a second thought. You should be bright enough to see that.

Secondly, I don’t really appreciate the condescending tone of your reply to me being in another time zone. This puts me on edge, because those that live in the US and post during the US working hours times are most likely to be responded to. If you’re in among the flood of responses with a critical idea that you think may work that is in among the middle of a sea of posts between dev’s red posts, you’re not likely to be seen at all. Again, it’s not just me with this issue, it’s those in similar circumstances, like I’ve seen in the CDI’s up till this one. Quite a few brilliant ideas I saw come out of those, and only a few were actually acknowledged as being dev-good.

So, tell me, what’s the point of speaking if you stand the chance of not being heard? Speak louder? Stand the chance of being infracted/banned. I get it; you, videoboy, gidorah and a few others are in the dev’s lap right now because you’re seen as being the in-crowd. I’m not the only one who sees this, anyone who responded with the same ‘cliquey’ references has sniffed it out too. This is what makes us nervous. We stand the chance of not being the same priority as the ones responded to most often.

The dev’s are most at fault for this, whether they realise it or not. They open up lines of communication only to apparently ‘hear’ select voices and not everyone. It kind of goes against what the CDI symbolises.

videoboy.4162:

Calling me out again and then sending me a insult as a private message is not keeping things on topic. I had already moved my discussion posts forward.

I mentioned your name to explain to Lilith why I mistook her post coming from you, and I am not ‘calling you out’.

I also send you another lengthy PM explaining how I experienced our clashing, so hopefully we can both learn from it. I hope you will reply to it, so we can keep the personal things personal, and not pollute this thread with it. Hopefully we can come to understand each others’ position better so we can shake hands and move on with a

Arghore.8340:

videoboy.4162:

Calling me out again and then sending me a insult as a private message is not keeping things on topic. I had already moved my discussion posts forward.

I mentioned your name to explain to Lilith why I mistook her post coming from you, and I am not ‘calling you out’.

I also send you another lengthy PM explaining how I experienced our clashing, so hopefully we can both learn from it. I hope you will reply to it, so we can keep the personal things personal, and not pollute this thread with it. Hopefully we can come to understand each others’ position better so we can shake hands and move on with a

Despite the deplorable pm system, I’ll have to agree its a good place to solve personal differences, having had an ongoing battle with another forumer for a good 24 hours, and then eventually coming to an agreement. It’s a good thing to keep it off the forums, so I recommend it highly.

Chris, how about a CDI on fixing the forum system? Maybe CC Danicia can run it.

(Because as we know, PVF is an ongoing struggle with the search function and this allusive trash can sub forum)

Valandil Dragonhart.2371:

Nike are you quite finished breaking down my post?

Given the lack of dev responses forum-wide, no I don’t think it’s too much to ask for some acknowledgement of an idea that is posted. Further elaboration can be given if needed and expanded upon after that (ie. collaboration), but I want to know I’m being heard first and foremost. Anything that a dev says ’they’ve read’ can be just glanced over without a second thought. You should be bright enough to see that.

Secondly, I don’t really appreciate the condescending tone of your reply to me being in another time zone. This puts me on edge, because those that live in the US and post during the US working hours times are most likely to be responded to. If you’re in among the flood of responses with a critical idea that you think may work that is in among the middle of a sea of posts between dev’s red posts, you’re not likely to be seen at all. Again, it’s not just me with this issue, it’s those in similar circumstances, like I’ve seen in the CDI’s up till this one. Quite a few brilliant ideas I saw come out of those, and only a few were actually acknowledged as being dev-good.

So, tell me, what’s the point of speaking if you stand the chance of not being heard? Speak louder? Stand the chance of being infracted/banned. I get it; you, videoboy, gidorah and a few others are in the dev’s lap right now because you’re seen as being the in-crowd. I’m not the only one who sees this, anyone who responded with the same ‘cliquey’ references has sniffed it out too. This is what makes us nervous. We stand the chance of not being the same priority as the ones responded to most often.

The dev’s are most at fault for this, whether they realise it or not. They open up lines of communication only to apparently ‘hear’ select voices and not everyone. It kind of goes against what the CDI symbolises.

I’ve never had a dev respond to me, and yet I’ve seen ideas that I’ve offered first come into play in the discussions from both the devs and from other players. I think that’s good enough, since it means that I’m contributing on some level. Chris has said that he reads every post, but there’s no way he can respond to every post. You should probably take that at face value.

I’m also not naive enough to believe that I am the only person that a particular idea occurs to, regardless of who types it first. We’re all playing the same game, we’re all posting in the same thread, it makes sense that our thoughts will sometimes go down the same paths.

If you are here because you want a dev to make a post responding to your input then you should probably question your own motivations. The point isn’t the response here, it’s having some small impact on the game, or the system or even the CDI process itself.

Valandil-

I’ve had Chris respond to me on a few occasions, but I’ve also had some of my posts go COMPLETELY ignored. Posts that were on-topic and – I thought – really interesting. In one case (my suggestion for specific types of Order Missions), I reposted the idea later and got a variety of responses and positive feedback.

You have to remember that keeping up with the thread is a mammoth task for us in addition to Chris. I can, at best, skim most posts. If I see something interesting, I’ll take a moment to read it further.

(This is why I think we need a better format for discussion.)

If there are any ideas you have for how we might be able to better read and promote ideas from each other, please let us know. I think most of us – regardless of whether we’re the cool kids on the thread or not – have the same end goal: making Guild Wars 2 the best game it can be.

We should be working together toward that goal.

timmyf.1490:

Valandil-

I’ve had Chris respond to me on a few occasions, but I’ve also had some of my posts go COMPLETELY ignored. Posts that were on-topic and – I thought – really interesting. In one case (my suggestion for specific types of Order Missions), I reposted the idea later and got a variety of responses and positive feedback.

You have to remember that keeping up with the thread is a mammoth task for us in addition to Chris. I can, at best, skim most posts. If I see something interesting, I’ll take a moment to read it further.

(This is why I think we need a better format for discussion.)

If there are any ideas you have for how we might be able to better read and promote ideas from each other, please let us know. I think most of us – regardless of whether we’re the cool kids on the thread or not – have the same end goal: making Guild Wars 2 the best game it can be.

We should be working together toward that goal.

I wonder, if adding a function that let you quote and reply to a poster, that also creates a “mini-thread” that could be expanded or collapsed at will, would enhance our discussions? I guess I’m thinking of something similar to way the Huffington Post has their comments section set up.

@video to Timmy

I love that idea. +1

Valandil Dragonhart.2371:

Nike are you quite finished breaking down my post?

Given the lack of dev responses forum-wide, no I don’t think it’s too much to ask for some acknowledgement of an idea that is posted. Further elaboration can be given if needed and expanded upon after that (ie. collaboration), but I want to know I’m being heard first and foremost. Anything that a dev says ’they’ve read’ can be just glanced over without a second thought. You should be bright enough to see that.

Secondly, I don’t really appreciate the condescending tone of your reply to me being in another time zone. This puts me on edge, because those that live in the US and post during the US working hours times are most likely to be responded to. If you’re in among the flood of responses with a critical idea that you think may work that is in among the middle of a sea of posts between dev’s red posts, you’re not likely to be seen at all. Again, it’s not just me with this issue, it’s those in similar circumstances, like I’ve seen in the CDI’s up till this one. Quite a few brilliant ideas I saw come out of those, and only a few were actually acknowledged as being dev-good.

So, tell me, what’s the point of speaking if you stand the chance of not being heard? Speak louder? Stand the chance of being infracted/banned. I get it; you, videoboy, gidorah and a few others are in the dev’s lap right now because you’re seen as being the in-crowd. I’m not the only one who sees this, anyone who responded with the same ‘cliquey’ references has sniffed it out too. This is what makes us nervous. We stand the chance of not being the same priority as the ones responded to most often.

The dev’s are most at fault for this, whether they realise it or not. They open up lines of communication only to apparently ‘hear’ select voices and not everyone. It kind of goes against what the CDI symbolises.

I don’t think that I really count as being in this “clique” that you mentioned. Sometimes I get responded to and sometimes I don’t. The times that I do, it is usually when I participate in discussing a post made by another poster.

I don’t recall seeing Nike mention your Time Zone, but I know that I did. Hopefully, that isn’t the mention that you felt was condescending, because I was actually trying to be encouraging.

I meant what I said, if you have ideas, post them for us. I think most of us would actually enjoy reading them and brainstorming with you. =)

Arghore and videoboy-

Please just stop.

Thanks.

timmyf.1490:

Arghore and videoboy-

Please just stop.

Thanks.

Gives Timmy an Adorable Puppy

I’m sorry, Timmy. =/

Reports everywhere…this is why we can’t have nice things…

videoboy.4162:

timmyf.1490:

Arghore and videoboy-

Please just stop.

Thanks.

Gives Timmy an Adorable Puppy

I’m sorry, Timmy. =/

Aww. <3

Just remember – and I’m guilty of this myself on these very boards – the internet can be a toxic place. It’s easy to be angry and vindictive and snarky. (Oh man, do I love being snarky!)

We all have something invested in the CDI, and for it to be successful, we need to be better.

Most of the ArenaNet developers, even if they lurk on these threads, don’t even bother to post. It seems pretty obvious as to why. I don’t spend much time in the WvW forums, but I hear it’s especially bad over there.

If we can create a safer space here, one where everybody can speak freely without fear of personal attacks, we may start to see more devs come and chime in. The way it is now, though? With all the demands and accusations? They’d be crazy to post.

timmyf.1490:

videoboy.4162:

timmyf.1490:

Arghore and videoboy-

Please just stop.

Thanks.

Gives Timmy an Adorable Puppy

I’m sorry, Timmy. =/

Aww. <3

Just remember – and I’m guilty of this myself on these very boards – the internet can be a toxic place. It’s easy to be angry and vindictive and snarky. (Oh man, do I love being snarky!)

We all have something invested in the CDI, and for it to be successful, we need to be better.

Most of the ArenaNet developers, even if they lurk on these threads, don’t even bother to post. It seems pretty obvious as to why. I don’t spend much time in the WvW forums, but I hear it’s especially bad over there.

If we can create a safer space here, one where everybody can speak freely without fear of personal attacks, we may start to see more devs come and chime in. The way it is now, though? With all the demands and accusations? They’d be crazy to post.

Yeah I wouldn’t enter the thread during a huge blowout if I was a dev.

I feel like this is sort of why CDI should have its own forum. For instance, at my grocery store, there is one aisle that has a “smiles for everyone” aisle. So folks can go to that aisle, with their own bags and pockets full of coupons, and get treated with a smile, while people who are in a rush can go to their own lane. I think that a CDI sub forum could have the same purpose.

Honestly I was thinking I ran out of things to say on this topic. Discussing it with someone else who went through similar processes with me over more realistic things (school board/system reorganization) led me to a couple things.

First. It’s important to have these going on. It’s also important to know just because something is given an “interesting idea, we’ll talk about it”, there’s no promise of action on it. I think most regular contributors on the boards and in suggestion topics are aware of this, but most irregular contributors and ‘outliers’ might not be. It needs to not be seen as a warning not to contribute and more of a disclaimer of “we’re discussing options and possibilities, not promising actions to be taken”.

Secondly. We all really need to work on getting some concise posting going on these threads so we get less “walls of text”. (Scribbles that down for a future Mesmer skill) Part of this is backing away from the “micro” side of ideas and staying with the “macro”; don’t get caught up in the details when you post unless you’re asked by the mods for elaboration. Give an outline, not a full thirty-page proposal.

Lastly. We as a community, and as concerned players, need to understand and respect boundaries. Not just of the mods, but of each other. If the topic is “CDI: Discussion of Charr Personal Story” then posting about how the latest Living Story update sucks or how Queensdale needs a nerfing isn’t on topic. A mod not answering that in the CDI thread isn’t shirking their duties, you’re just being an idiot by waving your hands in front of a camera. It also doesn’t help if you dredge up off-topic things the mod has said in the past, or act out about how they’re not trustworthy. That’s the boundaries we have to respect of the moderators. For each other’s boundaries? I’ll put this simply – it’s unnecessary to level personal attacks at people, or to deride their ideas as being stupid without actually explaining why you think that.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Let’s try and stay on topic please?

Specifically discussing CDI best working practices.

Chris

Just wondering, what is it you would like us to discuss further?

Choosing of topics, new forum tech, etc?

@chris, I am sorry this has gone this far, maybe somewhere I am responsible for it as well, but I can’t seem to find out where. And apparently I can’t seem to be able to fix it either… tnx, that works…

And Videoboy, I am sorry ok! I am not a boggie man honest

I’ll shut up about this now, and let others continue the CDI, some sort of recap of things accomplished by now could help a lot. As that would help us determine where to take the discussion next…

Having a limit on words for the post might not be good but rather on the one post itself. I think if an idea takes multiple posts to get across it has not been thought out enough. There is plenty of room to get an idea out in one post, at least it seems to be judging by some of the great ideas that have come out in far less than that.

I also think that having a limit on how often someone can post would also help. By putting a time limit in between posts it helps with stopping the ‘i must defend my idea to the last breath’ from happening. A downside of this would be posters that engage in conversation between other posters. But maybe if the gap were lets say an hour, it would still allow topics to be discussed without the back and forth for pages between a group of people. This would also allow a time period for people to cool off before posting the ‘angry’ post.

Basically the CDI does get very long and could use something to help keep posts well thought out and on topic.

Malchior.5042:

Reports everywhere…this is why we can’t have nice things…

Hahaha, I can’t really blame you for reporting Malchior. But it’s ok, you can have a puppy too.

gives Malchior a puppy

As for the CDI, is altering the tech to allow the “mini-threads” actually something that is technologically possible with this type of forum?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

(…)

Secondly. We all really need to work on getting some concise posting going on these threads so we get less “walls of text”. (Scribbles that down for a future Mesmer skill) Part of this is backing away from the “micro” side of ideas and staying with the “macro”; don’t get caught up in the details when you post unless you’re asked by the mods for elaboration. Give an outline, not a full thirty-page proposal.

(…)

Which is kinda what was asked in the OP – should there be a message limit … I think there might be a need for that.

Second, after reading the back and forth between a couple of people – anything that does not contribute to the actual topic on hand should be purged on a regular basis. It’s distracting, frustrating and unnecessary.

I look at this like brainstorming. Short, pass the ball on and don’t keep it. It helps if the “official” voices catch the ball also and potentially contribute every so often.

No in-game titles please, even temporary. I also don’t feel there is a need for personal acknowledgment.

VOLKON.1290:

Nike.2631:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

The suggestions forum was axed so that developers could get the relevant information in their own sub forums, not because players and non anet forumers couldn’t wade through it.

The problem is symmetrical – Devs couldn’t be reasonably expected to look in two forums for matters of importance to them. Player’s shouldn’t be forced to look in two forums to find the most important threads about WvW for example. A WvW CDI belongs in the WvW board where WvW players will find it without checking an arcane schedule over when WvW is active in the CDI boards.

That isn’t difficult to handle. You put a sticky in the WvW section informing us over there that there’s a WvW based CDI in the CDI section and include the link. As passionate as WvW players are, they’ll be over in a heartbeat.

The idea of a CDI section to the forums would work best, I think, if the creation of threads is restricted to ANet people such as Chris. It becomes quite easy to keep the section neat that way, and when a CDI topic is closed all relevant sub-threads can be migrated with it to a historical section for the CDI topics. If the players see an idea come up that they’d like to see have it’s own thread they can simply ask.

This seemed to get buried back on page two, so just throwing it up again.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

1: We need to keep thread and post sizes more manageable. Should we put a limit on the word length of posts?
2: How are we going to chose topics moving forward, for example, by votes or by Anet choosing them etc?

1. In my opinion, putting a limit on the word length of posts would alienate some dedicated posters. I think requiring some kind of formatting for posts over X length might be better, like paragraphs or headers.

2. As others have said, I think a mix of both would be best. Voting-only would lead to unproductive topics, and Anet-only would lead to players feeling ignored. Perhaps Anet could provide a weekly theme like “economy week” or “PvP balance week,” and voters could choose their favorite subtopics therein.