Guild Wars 2

I think its because wvw players hold the devs more accountable than other people

gidorah.4960:

Lord Kuru.3685:

The main forum CDI thread had 1014 posts (and 51645 views).
The WvW forum CDI thread had 1134 posts (and 42389 views).

The main forum’s current CDI thread has 100 posts (and 2920 views).
The WvW forum’s current CDI thread has 47 posts and (1907 views).

Why is the ratio between the main form and WvW forums’ posts so drastically different this time? Could it be because players feel the devs aren’t listening and are already giving up on CDI?

pretty much this notice the massive difference in dev participation in the other 2 cdi threads and the wvw one. chris himself abanded the wvw thread to the wvw dev’s who clearly did not want to participate in it.

“Did you get that memo? I’ll just go ahead and make sure you get another one sent over right away so if you could just make an appearance in that CDI thread, That’d be greaaat.”

They’re commenting on the lack of responses in the other CDI thread too.

Johje Holan.4607:

They’re commenting on the lack of responses in the other CDI thread too.

sure their aren’t enough dev’s and alot of players. but they at least tried in the other ones wvw dev’s barely showed and weren’t very helpful in shaping and moving the discusion when they did.

Johje Holan.4607:

They’re commenting on the lack of responses in the other CDI thread too.

Yes… but here, we can literally see — through player post counts — a very large difference between how two communities (WvW and general GW2) react to CDI.

It shows (IMO) that WvW players — much more so than the general GW2 community — have given up on engagement with the devs. Why? This is a very important question that Anet should really be asking themselves.

At this point in the game, only thing I and many many others care about is population / coverage balance. All else is irrelevant.

Class Balance – irrelevant if there are not enough players to face against each other. Meta or no meta makes zero difference when its 5-10 people on the map vs 40-60.

Rewards – Irrelevant if there are not enough players left to play against. If you are on winning team the defenders will eventually never recap and you will get nothing. No loot, no WxP to develop your toon, nothing. What are you going to do with PPT ?

Also at this point, only thing that will matter is action and inaction. The clock on the competition is ticking with many of us eyeing greener pastures. What A-net does, or doesnt do about this situation will in large part determine their future revenue stream, as WvW is an end-game to a large portion of the playerbase, myself included.

So we’re going to be talking about how we’re going to make talking about WvW issues better?

Lord Kuru.3685:

Johje Holan.4607:

They’re commenting on the lack of responses in the other CDI thread too.

Yes… but here, we can literally see — through player post counts — a very large difference between how two communities (WvW and general GW2) react to CDI.

It shows (IMO) that WvW players — much more so than the general GW2 community — have given up on engagement with the devs. Why? This is a very important question that Anet should really be asking themselves.

the difference is the wvw dev’s communication. Chris started this initiative and its up to him to own up too how bad the wvw team did on their end. Our cdi thread started just like the others there was tons of player participation. It wasn’t the players who failed and anet needs to own up to it.

Terrahero.9358:

So we’re going to be talking about how we’re going to make talking about WvW issues better?

Yo dawg, I heard you like gathering feedback, so we made a thread to gather feedback on our thread for gathering feedback so that you can provide feedback on how you liked our feedback.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Thank you all for making the first CDI topic discussions such a good start. The next phase as mentioned at the start of the initiative is for us to discuss how we could better evolve the process around CDI. The key areas for me personally are as follows and based on my interactions on the PVE thread:

1: More focused Topics.
2: Summaries of discussion/direction every three pages.
3: More time to post.

Please know the expectation isn’t for you to list your top three, this is just how I did it. This is a discussion primarily and next Monday I will post the actions so we can evolve the CDI best working practices immediately.

Thanks again for your involvement,

Chris

Except that the WvW CDI was NOT a good start. There was hardly any collaboration from ANet at all and we don’t have a clue where any of the discussion is likely to lead. You’re pretending that you can “evolve” something that never actually happened in the first place. There were some pretty kitten good ideas raised by the players and even some valuable discussion on the pros and cons of many of them, but for all practical purposes that all disappeared down a rabbit hole.

“Collaboration” means some minimum amount of give and take, feedback, and honest discussion on what’s desirable, what’s feasible, and what’s going to be pursued. Please point out where ANY of that happened. If you’re not willing to holdup your end of this thing please don’t frustrate us with another false hope.

gidorah.4960:

1. make the wvw dev’s actually show up
lets be honest the wvw version of the cdi was nothing like the pvp or pve version’s
the wvw dev’s only showed up when players started getting testy and then pretended they where active participants the whole time. the thread had a very poor discusion because the wvw dev’s barely showed up to have a discusion with.

Not to mention, the devs participation always seems to involve "We’ve got some ideas about this, but can’t divulge any info yet. Either because we’re not allowed (stats, figures), or because we don’t want to make any promises, getting people excited, which don’t come to fruition).

It’s a stuck between a rock and a hard place scenario, but sucks all the same.

Ricky.4706:

polls might be a step in the right direction imo.

I thought the same.

I hate to say it but TESO is coming. The time for discussion is running out. Significant changes to WvW as mentioned in numerous posts are required sooner rather than later.

Anet still has the advantage and everyone accepts change is needed particularly with regard to PPT inequalities.

I really don’t want to be left playing on a ghost server in 5 or 6 months time.

Personally, I still have faith in Anet to deliver, but please at least let us know which parts you are definitely looking to change?

^^ Exactly, I mean this new GvG arena appeases those who wanted it but they still haven’t address many of the problems with the wvw Metagame, infact this could cause conflict of interests among communities.
To be honest the Thread was cluttered with alot of replies and solutions, with not as much discussion or feedback from the devs.

Lets be honest… The WvW CDI was a flop compared to the other ones.

Here is how to fix it (in addition to Chris’ points):

1) Choose 3 WvW developers, and set aside at least 1 hour of their work day for the CDI thread. If necessary, reassign the workload for these people so they can have that extra hour a day. With this comes an expectation that at least three dev posts will be added to the thread each day.

2) Relax the restrictions on “what you can’t tell us.” Sharing some statistical data needs to be ok. Sharing some plans needs to be ok. Your not going to spoil anything. If you change your plans later, that is ok too. Throw a disclaimer in every post if you have to: “DISCLAIMER: This plan is completely subject to change.”

3) Tell us what you think about specific ideas. A great many discussions kept going that should have stopped, because they never got specific feedback. This distracted us from the good discussions we could have had. Even if an idea is completely stupid and impossible, take some time to explain why you won’t use it, and end that part of the discussion.

Contrary to some people’s opinions the world pop CDI actually DID provide a lot of great content from us to the devs, however the average person did not read through that massive thread and just skimming it you only see the repetitive spam of tired ideas.

The reason this happened is because the devs “waited a few days” to allow the discussion to develop before starting to comment.

Don’t do that – post at least once/twice a day, especially at the start of the thread, to keep the discussion on track and nip any unnecessary sidebars in the bud.

lol much like the actual cdi thread the pve and spvp version of this thread already has dev posts. Not sure much else needs to be said actions speak louder than words and everyone can see the bare minimum effort put in to the discussion by the wvw dev’s.

titanlectro.5029:

Lets be honest… The WvW CDI was a flop compared to the other ones.

Here is how to fix it (in addition to Chris’ points):

1) Choose 3 WvW developers, and set aside at least 1 hour of their work day for the CDI thread. If necessary, reassign the workload for these people so they can have that extra hour a day. With this comes an expectation that at least three dev posts will be added to the thread each day.

2) Relax the restrictions on “what you can’t tell us.” Sharing some statistical data needs to be ok. Sharing some plans needs to be ok. Your not going to spoil anything. If you change your plans later, that is ok too. Throw a disclaimer in every post if you have to: “DISCLAIMER: This plan is completely subject to change.”

3) Tell us what you think about specific ideas. A great many discussions kept going that should have stopped, because they never got specific feedback. This distracted us from the good discussions we could have had. Even if an idea is completely stupid and impossible, take some time to explain why you won’t use it, and end that part of the discussion.

Step 1 would require hiring 2 more WvW developers…

I thought that the posts by Devon were done well, even if they were few and far between. I have hope that the next topic for discussion will be easier for him to get into. It is possible that with the Edge of the Mists testing playground coming up he was rather more busy than normal. It might be nice to actually give him the benefit of the doubt rather than railing at his absence.

In my opinion, there were a lot of great suggestions. The main issue that I had with following the thread was the intent. I couldn’t figure out if the Population Balance was about actual numbers of players on the maps being more equal or if it was about providing ways to make the feeling of the numbers more equal through other means.

With that said, these are the ideas that I had to improve the CDI here:
1. Provide or ask for more information regarding the topic.
- Since these are topics provided by posters, if there isn’t a way to indicate the most popular points of interest from the previous topic suggestion thread, then you could request for points to be discussed for a day or two, then go from there based on what people think the topic is about. Rather than having people jump in with 5000 character posts.
2. Provide summaries about what the devs are taking away up to that point. Every three pages seems like a good start.
3. More interaction from Anet.
- If there is a main dev responsible for the post, like Devon, and he isn’t able to post for a day, then someone should be appointed to step in and provide the summaries and/or let everyone know when he will be around to post again.
4. Provide follow up on actions.
Once the thread has closed, there should be information provided as a recap. Ideas taken away, ideas not feasible, ideas that led to internal ideas, etc.
5. Surveys
In game or out of game, this could be a simple and fast way to get specific information on the topic being discussed.

As a future idea, give credit for CDI in release notes
If possible, it would be nice in future releases, when something is added based on the CDI, that there is a mention of it. This would facilitate an awareness of the impact of CDI and, hopefully, more players would become involved.

gidorah.4960:

Brutal Arts.6307:

Wait, did we actually reach a conclusion in the server population imbalance thread or are we just pretending that never happened.

I’m serious here, if any statements were made from anet about adjusting that (in a way that’s not complete trash) please direct me to them.

i do not believe they said they would actually do anything. They really did not take the wvw cdi seriously at all it was a giant mess compared to the other 2 threads.

In that case perhaps the devs could start by, perhaps, pretending to humor players suggestions and make more of an effort to take part in this mockery of a discussion. At the very least they could come out and say “Your feedback is meaningless since we have no plans to adjust issue X as it is working as intended”

I must admit, i’m a little mad on Anet. The season league thingy made wvw WORSE then it already was, you are rewarding ‘bad playing, but successfull zerging’ servers more then others.

Unless i see actions taken that nerf stacked servers effectiveness, my believe in Anet is non existant. And before you say ’it’s your fault phoebe, you are not constructive’. Lemme tell you something, i did lots of constructive feedback in several threads i’m sure devon read, but it was all ignored. And every time ‘zerg smashing meta’ counters me so easely, it’s another frustration added. Mind you with the league system (fighting t1 server 3 weeks in row) has been bigger then ever.

Then you could say ‘just quit the game’. Not as easy as that. Other mmo’s suck completely, guild wars 2 potential is unlimited, it could become the only mmo in the world qualitifed to get 11 out of 10 rating. But atm, each update (or lack off, depending on part of game), is rater lowering the rating.

Launch gw2 rating: 9,5/10
Current gw2 rating: 6/10

Fix your mistakes and you are back up to 9,5. Should be the easiest thing in the world (wich is why it’s so frustrating when Anet only shows stubborness rather then to man up and fix the problems).

@Phoebe – There is some truth in what you say imo.. though how you rate the game is purely your view, I wouldn’t score the game past a 7 at anytime since launch and not even a 5 right now.
GW2 had a vision and direction that went against the grain of the typical MMO and for that we all bought in to it I guess. But after the intial PvE and PvP was devoured it quickly became apparent that their Openworld PvE simply couldn’t keep up becuae of the very low replay value it offers.. enter Gear grind, Lottery and swing a sword swing a sword again, again, again LS with inclusive timegating.. all to keep people in game a little longer until perhaps something stuck, but I don’t think it really has for the majority of us. So to further keep people in game a bit longer they take the same path but with an eye on taking advantage of the one thing that we were actually complaining of being starved of… loot, gold and challenge – enter champ trains – except the challenge comes by the way of Bosses with a guzillion HP, and dealling continuous agony/chill, poison dmg and the seriously frustrating mobility reduction effects…. enter ZERG focused content – get players hooked into these two scenarios and you have the breeding ground for their end game content WVW and the season 1/xfer/server imbalances and queue fiasco we now have… and the CDI process, whether we think is had ideas in or just troll dross, has highlighted what I believe to be one of the biggest issues in the games right now and moving forward (narrowly beating performance to top spot )

Solstice posted some good posts earlier in this thread regarding what he saw within the CDI initial thread, and I agree with a lot of what was said but another poster put it perfectly.. CDI required input from both sides to elevate the good answers from the poor and the troll dross.. and that is where the CDI fell down.. a single ANET person offering 3 or 4 posts with not really that much of anything other than don’t post about this and don’t ask for that… there was no discussion or value interaction in the WvW CDI only players expressing frustration/ideas and then more frustrations when it became clear it was pretty much 1-way traffic.

So for me this new..“lets discuss the CDI” is nothing more than a smoke screen to avoid the actual issue that much longer.

What I was hoping to see was "ANET have taken the ideas away, deliberated within the teams and this is what we propose to trial or at least consider trialling… then open the CDI to discuss that.. this is just wasting time in the hope we stay in game that little bit longer imo clutching at even shorter straws.

These issues the game faces in all areas, not just WvW need action and sometimes hard decisions must be taken otherwise the longer this mess is allowed to continue there wont be a need to do anything.. even the stacked servers will grow weary of endless queuing and then running round maps with nothing more than killing some doors and standing round idle for 30mins to give undermanned server the opportunity to recap before the next zerg rush comes to flatten it all back again or see all their hard work defending their maps/structures all day only for nightcaps to push it all back… both sides of this mess are affected not just us unfortunate outmanners.

in case anyone actually wants a response to how poorly the wvw thread is doing you will have to go over to the pve thread to be heard this is being ignored much like the actual discusion was

May as well close up the thread guys, it needs life support.

Maybe ANET forgot about this thread.

style.6173:

Maybe ANET forgot about this thread.

Forgot? Probably not.

Ignored? Most assuredly.

1: 1-2 answers every day in every main area (wvw, pvp, pve, classes)
2: question of the week (for example: we devs know the ranger pets are not working well, what do you think blabla)
3: a summary would be good

since i have no idea what CDI means, i guess you want suggestion ?

1. WXP Distribution
change how current wxp distribute work, for each earn distributed evenly.
ex: Tower now reward 2000 WXP if you cap 5man you get 400WXP each, but if 50man zerg come get tower, they each only get 40WXP.

to encourage solo player/roamer then each enemy player gives 200WXP, etc etc.
to encourage team play, siege that destroy wall/door will distribute wxp to party as long they are in 1000 range for exp.

2.reward
everything no longer drop loot.
gives 1 npc at spawn point, say a “Quartermaster”
so what he do is count your action through out wvw, you can go back to him/he/it to claim reward like bags, chest, and other reward that should have dropped.

also some other feature implemented.
like convert world rank to money.
(as you know, WXP quite easy to get, gold … not so much, and WvW dedicated had almost no chance to get their legendary.
say 1 rank = 1 gold

3.Penalty
dead is bad. learn it the hard way.
a special weakened debuff stuck on you for 5m-15m to discourage unlimited blob. .they dont just charge in and die then repeat on nearest wp.

well this is all i can suggest.
maybe there is more, maybe thats all.

I would suggest that in the future, if you plan on having more discussion threads, you do something to keep the thread on the first page. This thread has been all the way down to the middle of the second page twice so far.

death penality punish the weaker servers. respawn and try is the only option against a populated server

Swamurabi.7890:

I would suggest that in the future, if you plan on having more discussion threads, you do something to keep the thread on the first page. This thread has been all the way down to the middle of the second page twice so far.

You mean like have a dev actually contribute to a “collaborative” discussion on WvW? Not gonna happen …

CDI = Collaborative Development Initiative, where players and developers work together to improve the game. (pretty silly that a player has to explain it, but whatever)

Anyway, to all the confused people in this thread, it is NOT a discussion about how to improve WvW, it is a discussion about how to improve the discussion to improve WvW. It’s a little bit like the movie Inception, but more stupid.

Waffler.1257:

CDI = Collaborative Development Initiative, where players and developers work together to improve the game. (pretty silly that a player has to explain it, but whatever)

Anyway, to all the confused people in this thread, it is NOT a discussion about how to improve WvW, it is a discussion about how to improve the discussion to improve WvW. It’s a little bit like the movie Inception, but more stupid.

It’s not a discussion, it’s one-sided again. It’s a series of monologues.

go read the pve CDI and write how you think future WvW CDI should be. Chris is doing a fantastic job and said he will work with the other CDI to help them improve. he read everything there and reply to a lot of the posters.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Process-Evolution/page/7#post3258645

Vi Au.8341:

go read the pve CDI and write how you think future WvW CDI should be. Chris is doing a fantastic job and said he will work with the other CDI to help them improve. he read everything there and reply to a lot of the posters.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Process-Evolution/page/7#post3258645

yeah i probably shouldnt be the only one who brings up how bad it is here i think chris has started to ignore me.

SchuMidas.4782:

since i have no idea what CDI means, i guess you want suggestion ?

1. WXP Distribution
change how current wxp distribute work, for each earn distributed evenly.
ex: Tower now reward 2000 WXP if you cap 5man you get 400WXP each, but if 50man zerg come get tower, they each only get 40WXP.

to encourage solo player/roamer then each enemy player gives 200WXP, etc etc.
to encourage team play, siege that destroy wall/door will distribute wxp to party as long they are in 1000 range for exp.

2.reward
everything no longer drop loot.
gives 1 npc at spawn point, say a “Quartermaster”
so what he do is count your action through out wvw, you can go back to him/he/it to claim reward like bags, chest, and other reward that should have dropped.

also some other feature implemented.
like convert world rank to money.
(as you know, WXP quite easy to get, gold … not so much, and WvW dedicated had almost no chance to get their legendary.
say 1 rank = 1 gold

3.Penalty
dead is bad. learn it the hard way.
a special weakened debuff stuck on you for 5m-15m to discourage unlimited blob. .they dont just charge in and die then repeat on nearest wp.

well this is all i can suggest.
maybe there is more, maybe thats all.

The previous CDI thread was put up for discussing issues, ideas and resolutions between players and ANET.. except one side of the discussion forgot to show up….

This CDI is to discuss… the CDI process …. yeah I know kinda lame right, nothing better than putting a stake in the ground and then asking you to run round and round and round like a Tasmanian Devil until eventually you either collapse with exhaustion and give up or you suddenly realise you’ve run round the same track so much you’ve worn the ground down to the point you can no longer see the stake anymore.

As for your ideas.. I see where your going with them… not that you will get anything coming back via the devs with it. The only thing I cant see being of value if the death penalty.. it will actually encourage more zergs due to the mass healing and buffage that is generated within it and the fact that aoe / condition dmg is capped so hard… running in a blob offers far too much protection for your idea to have any real effect imo.

@Devon,

I think there needs to be a variety of involvement from ANET people in the WvW thread. You have a lot going on. So does everyone else. Would be good to see more ANET presence though.

Comments such as this are not phrased properly though. “To be clear, this initiative is about discussion and not necessarily about action. When we find ideas that fit within our scope and the core philosophies of the game we do take them further, but that isn’t the goal of the whole thing, nor should it be the expectation that we will take action on any and all ideas.”

The D in CDI stands for development. If all that will happen is discussion, there isn’t much point for these threads.

DevonCarver.5370:

As for posting frequency, it is always the case that our first responsibility is to the game and the continued production of the features and content.

I just think its odd that you are the only busy person at anet. While you where doing a terrible job here there was a active and productive discussion going on in pve and pvp and in each and every class forum. Unless you are saying that everyone else in the company has tons of free time and you alone don’t you probably owe us a better explanation.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

gidorah.4960:

DevonCarver.5370:

As for posting frequency, it is always the case that our first responsibility is to the game and the continued production of the features and content.

I just think its odd that you are the only busy person at anet. While you where doing a terrible job here there was a active and productive discussion going on in pve and pvp and in each and every class forum. Unless you are saying that everyone else in the company has tons of free time and you alone don’t you probably owe us a better explanation.

Simply put Devon has been extremely busy of late (Edge of Mists etc) and you will note that many of my posts have been outside of work hours. This is my choice and not something i ask of my design team.

We are working to improve the time we can dedicate to the CDI and if we think that if we can’t appropriate more then it may be best to move to 1 CDI thread at a time.

Chris

I guess the answer of no one else at anet has any projects they are working on is the best we are going to get. 1 thread at a time is probably for the best.

DevonCarver.5370:

It is true that the purpose of this thread is to discuss the process moving forward, not to discuss topics or solutions to issues with WvW currently. In looking through this thread and thinking back to the previous thread, it’s pretty clear that the main sticking point with this initiative is interaction or perceived lack thereof from the development team. I think part of that comes down to some of the things you have all mentioned, specifically:

Being more clear about what can and can’t be discussed.
Providing a more focused topic that can be discussed more fully.
More clearly listing out the constraints of the discussion.

Those are things we can do a lot about in the next iteration of the CDI. I’m also curious what your thoughts are on some of the things raised in the PvE thread. Like, do you think it would be more fruitful to discuss a topic that we decide on, or to discuss one that you are all interested in? To be clear, this initiative is about discussion and not necessarily about action. When we find ideas that fit within our scope and the core philosophies of the game we do take them further, but that isn’t the goal of the whole thing, nor should it be the expectation that we will take action on any and all ideas.

As for posting frequency, it is always the case that our first responsibility is to the game and the continued production of the features and content. It can pose a barrier to frequent posting and it is especially true at a time like now, which combines holidays with pretty extensive work to make sure our current work on the Edge of the Mists is proceeding as planned. I can’t promise to be in here every day, but I can promise to remain engaged in the thread as much as can reasonably be expected on top of my other duties running the WvW team.

I hope that you will all continue to engage in this initiative in the spirit it is intended and continue to foster a good discussion about the fundamentals of WvW design.

Devon

First of all, can you define to us what is Anet core philosophies regarding WvW

What is the depth range and resource allocated to the WvW team. It is no secret that compared to all other aspect of the game, the WvW team is one of the smallest one out there. I, personally, would love to know how big the team is so i when i make suggestions regarding WvW, i know if it is feasible or not.

Secondly, as I stated, WvW team is small, if you are overloaded and you probably are, maybe it is time to ask for more resource?

Finally, is it possible to view the Edge of the Mists forum section? there have been very little communication or discussions regarding this and i asked a few tested what they think about it, but i would love to know what sort of actions the devs are taking in response to the positive and negative feedback.
For a non NDA initiative having a secret section is not a good start. Im not asking so that the non tested go in and post a bunch but for them/us to have a better understanding where it is going and what is happening. And if we have ideas we would like to share, pass it through one of the tested

PS: One topic i would like to see is are there any plans for balancing WvW separately from tPvP. Balancing issues in one mode is totally different from balancing the other mode currently creating a very boring meta

gidorah.4960:

DevonCarver.5370:

As for posting frequency, it is always the case that our first responsibility is to the game and the continued production of the features and content.

I just think its odd that you are the only busy person at anet. While you where doing a terrible job here there was a active and productive discussion going on in pve and pvp and in each and every class forum. Unless you are saying that everyone else in the company has tons of free time and you alone don’t you probably owe us a better explanation.

Hey i think he gets it from you mentioned it on multiple threads multiple time and it is becoming redundant. i do hope he improves the amount of interaction he has with the community and be more open about some of the upcoming features for wvw. If his hands are tied because of company policies, maybe revisit them and see if they are all currently viable.
If he lack resource and he is overloaded with work, ask for more resource to lighten the load so he can focus on different aspect of his work.

As much as i would like to put all the blame on one person, maybe there are other factors we just dont know about.

(not saying he is not at fault just back off him a bit)

Hi Chris,
How are you going to pick topics? As you probably know, i posted something concerning the next WvW topic: skill lag. which in my opinion isnt a very good topic because it stems from overpopulated servers (and we already “discussed” that) or server issues on anet side that we have no control or very little knowledge of. Is it possible to add a second thread during the 3 day CDI process evolution to “vote” on potential topic?

As long as this isnt one big “placebo” to calm the masses (which at this point I would be ‘ruining’ it by saying it is a placebo) then Im ok with these threads.

I would like to see a little more of “Well, we are discussing these things: x. but these are completely out of question so please dont even consider it”. I liked how in the balance threa for Dec 10 we SAW the changes, we saw stuff being changed because we asked for it and we had good basis for this. But so far with these threads, all I see is a giant black hole, and no ‘light’ coming out of the white[red] hole.