Guild Wars 2

Seriously just forget “guild” tags. Just add the ability to select ANY friendly player and right click/follow. This adds a personal tag that only you can see on the player you selected. If a group wants to run tagless they can all select one player to follow. This can work in PvE and WvW from groups as small as 2 to X.

Dream In A Dream.7213:

Malchior.5042:

Screenager.7804:

Isaiah Cartwright.8569:

Seems like people really enjoy answering questions so I’ll throw out a few more.

How big do you expect a squad to be?
What kind of content is a PvE commander most useful?
Is money a good enough gate for commander tags?

Just a note from a purely wvw perspective. Talking about how big a squad should be. The potential changes being made here if squad management comes into the picture really presents the possibility of pushing grouping in wvw away from 60,70,80+ people on one player towards smaller squads based on having a reasonable number of players visible on a squad and group management window or overlay.

Just a thought as I always like to encourage players not to ball massive numbers in one place as much as possible

and yep erm 30 seems reasonable for a squad tbh (purely personal answer)

I’m in agreement with Screenager on this one.

The element that I feel most people aren’t considering when they ask for 50+ people in a Commander’s squad is the UI.

First off, I don’t think Anet wants to design a fully flexible UI frame that can fit up to 50 people and grow/shrink in size based on the number of players in the frame and customizations by the user. I sure as hell know I’d hate to design such a thing in a game that’s designed on field awareness and watching your opponent, as opposed to staring at bars and panels. Seriously, a 50 person UI frame would have to cover a 4th of the screen to be large enough to see, display each player, and actually present meaningful information.

Now…imagine some of the suggestions of “Oh, you should be able to have the whole map in your squad!” Ideas like these don’t think about the future. There would be no possible way to make a UI frame to support that.

To prevent UI clutter, I too would have to limit a squad at 30 people. Squads that are coordinating together can communicate via the Commander chat tab. Commanders could have the option of granting privilege to Lieutenants to also post in this tab. Anyone would have visibility into the tab, but only Commanders and Lieutenants have speaking privileges. The tab could be added as a filtered selection to appear in the Main chat tab as well (or any tab the user desires).

Good points.

But we can still play around with some of these ideas.

What about a limited visibility system.

commander sees all of his/her sub commanders on the map.
sub commanders can see 2 groups in their ui.

This way 10 player squad will be effective on its own and a commander can see their position on the map.

Another way to do it is to have a group lead assigned in each group. This group lead is visible on commander’s map. Have squad limited to say 6 groups.

In the end you still need voip to coordinate well, and it might be ok to keep the current system but with a few changes. But hey we can dream:D

I jsut read through the suggestions about sub group leads having map icons and visibility and it geniuenly is a good idea (here comes the bbut part :P )

but….
bearing in mind I’m trying to think about what is high and low reach to get done… would a commander tag with a lower squad cap (im throwing 30 around but you get the idea), the ability to change your tag icon or colour allow the same kind of functionality by having say 4 people on ts with different tag colours on map without having to have the pressure of producing a whole ream of code in game for it ?

I still think its a neat idea I jsut wonder re balance of what we could potentially get quicker

Some of us may think we want a WXP line, but no special ‘abilities’ beyond the commander UI should be able to be earned alone. No special abilities should help in combat either (i.e. damage, healing, etc). There can be no incentive for players to run a tag other than the explicit purpose of leading other players. The only abilities that should be possible to obtain are non-combat abilities intended only for making it easier to gather information about your team and give accurate orders to who you want to give them to.

DevonCarver.5370:

Perhaps the largest question I still have, how would everyone feel if the only changes to commander were the smaller scale ones? The other stuff is super interesting and has a lot of promise, but is also a major task and one I can’t make any guarantees about. I suppose the crux of the question is how priority is the rest of the stuff, if the smaller bits are taken care of? Would the commander system be functional enough with more markers, guild only tags, less suppression, better supplyinfo, and possibly additional marker shapes?

I rarely find a need for markers to be honest. I used one the other night to demonstrate which wall we would be taking our siege golems through, but other than that I very rarely use them and I dont often see other commanders using them either.

Guild only tags are a good idea and would be worth the time I think. There are plenty of WvW guilds out there that just want to do their own thing and not get a lot of PUGs following them around, causing problems by being rallybots, just because theres a tag up.

Less suppression is pretty much a necessity. Most commanders on my server use Teamspeak for communication, but when we need to communicate via text, it can cause major problems when our communication is prevented due to anti-spam measures.

Better supply info is my number 1 desire for commander improvements. A commander that can make effective use of the supply in his zerg is a good commander, but it often feels as though the system does not give us the feedback we need. Increased range, increased visibility, more automation, etc would all improve the experience.

Guild tags are a pretty big deal IMO. The reason is a lot of commanders don’t want random players around that die easily and rez the enemy. Guild tags don’t have to be fancy just allow the existing commander tag to optionally only show for the players current guild mates. Call Target is currently a better hat system than the commander system for the more hardcore WvW on our server.

I would say pick the low hanging fruit and get a few changes out sooner rather than a bunch of changes later. The tag system is workable now and with a few small adjustments would be decent.

DevonCarver.5370:

Would the commander system be functional enough with more markers, guild only tags, less suppression, better supplyinfo, and possibly additional marker shapes?

Short answer: yes

Long answer: This is all good stuff, but I’d really like to see the squad system improved so that joining a squad provides real organizational benefits for large groups, tools that can be used to “discover” a squad you want to join, and ease of squad joining. But I believe that if you make those modest commander updates first that any enhancements you do to squads later will have compounded benefits. Also, please look at this system from an ease of use / user experience perspective… right now using the commander system is not intuitive, as you’ve seen by the “what map markers?” responses…

Is it possible to add a /command channel for a number of commanders to communicate when coordinating multiple groups, which is separate from /squad chat? Will this bring value to coordination?

Personally, I run commander tag only when leading ad hoc and/or organized groups through PvE. It helps significantly when putting together groups for temple runs.

Last night, another commander and I lead a group all over Tyria, exploring less popular content (such as Rhand’s dungeon). It was great fun and it only happened because it was easy for people to track us through our tags.

That said, if a commander tag was guild only, I would not have been visible to anyone and no random players would be able to follow either of us.

How about a “hide THIS commander” option, like blocking but not so severe? I know that joining a squad provides access to a single commander.

“Hide all commanders,” too?

Commanders are followed because of the reputations they earn. A bad commander is like a bad boss.. Unless they are paying you enough, you’re not going to follow them.

Isaiah Cartwright.8569:

Seems like people really enjoy answering questions so I’ll throw out a few more.

How big do you expect a squad to be?
What kind of content is a PvE commander most useful?
Is money a good enough gate for commander tags?

1. As big as my guild
2. Guild Missions
3. Guild Mission Commanders/Officers should not need to pay gold, when leadership is needed.

DevonCarver.5370:

I’ll respond to this to get the general idea out to everyone. Implementing a system that is in other games, older games or not, that is not in our game at all is a very time consuming project. It is not as simple as just copying and pasting some HTML code. Not only do we have to build it ourselves, but it has to fit with the design of our game both visually and from a systems standpoint. So, building any system of this sort, even one that was a direct copy of one in another game or product, would still be a significant project for us. Which isn’t a reason not to do it, but is a factor in determining when we would want to do those things.

Would it be possible to take the current party system as a basis and extend that into a larger group format though?
Not saying that’s necessarily the best route to take, just wondering if it’s a possibility.

Seperate WvW and PvE commander tags.

Those new or jumping into WvW often get stuck pvdooring for hours, or various other incursions because PvE commander tags jump into the fray now that there is a WvW meta achievement and most pve’rs have to have all the achievements.

So make WvW focused more and harder to obtain by playing WvW hours spent in WvW not hours playing Fractals, or selling Mithril ingots.

I would say the ability to see numbers of who is on the map, as well as possibility of seeing what other commanders are where while in WvW in which BL so that there is easy access to determine where help is needed most. I also suggest some form or factor of displaying stuff that only the commander at the time can do (problem lays within still having randoms get the tags and just call out bs over whatever channel it is)

Having smaller different sized commanding squads may help (ie scout groups/zerg busting groups/supply runners/seigers) I believe that is something that the devs are seeking to provide better play with anyways… it’s just up to who is taking or wanting to take up the mantle of doing the defensive manuevers while there still is little reward as to compared to zerging or ‘karma’ training.

DevonCarver.5370:

How would people feel if, instead, there were some additional unlocks you could get as a guild commander that only displayed to people in your guild? Maybe if you are in guild only mode on your tag you have some additional tools?

The system for guilds to upgrade for guild tags sounds very reasonable.

DevonCarver.5370:

Would the commander system be functional enough with more markers, guild only tags, less suppression, better supplyinfo, and possibly additional marker shapes?

These proposed changes would incredible, but you must keep in mind, there is a never-ending list of ‘small’ changes (eg: larger squad size) that can be done to improve the system, but the ones you’ve listed here are extremely important. Can you elaborate by what you mean when you say “markers”. Is this the Blue-Diamondish Commander symbol (aka: tag, dorito)? If so, the more markers is highly welcomed, not sure if we really need more shapes. If it’s something else, I have to sadly admit I know not what you speak of (is it the ctrl-clicking on map?).

Nike.2631:

If they make small changes, then the Commander System passes from ‘ok’ to ‘mostly good’ and IT WILL NOT GET ATTENTION AGAIN until all other ‘ok-or-worse’ matters have been addressed.

I think you have it wrong. Should be more along the lines of: Commander System passes from ‘horrid’ to ‘acceptable’. I believe it’s understood that this system will always be able to improve and some sort of attention will always be placed on it. I believe this then goes back to long term vs short term changes. From my interpretations of your posts, your saying you’d like a big change to come much further into the future. I don’t agree with you in this sense and feel quick changes which can be released faster are better, because, believe it or not, WvW is still being played everyday.

DevonCarver.5370:

How would people feel if, instead, there were some additional unlocks you could get as a guild commander that only displayed to people in your guild? Maybe if you are in guild only mode on your tag you have some additional tools?

Please please please! This would be amazing! This would help our guild immensely

DevonCarver.5370:

Would the commander system be functional enough with more markers, guild only tags, less suppression, better supplyinfo, and possibly additional marker shapes?

Yes please smaller changes sooner are always better imo but to be fair, those things should have been included since day 1 to make the commander system functional from launch and then we would now a year + later be talking about ways to improve vastly upon that starter system which is likely why you see some frustration and backlash to sticking with the status quo surrounding this topic.

I would hesitate to wait too long to make any changes even if promising something big in the works because MMO gamers have all become so impatient and jaded that you will be catering to entirely different audience by the time you finish the project. Best of luck and thank you very much for having this discussion with the community. There are a ton of fantastic ideas in this thread that give me hope for where things could go from here.

DevonCarver.5370:

How would people feel if, instead, there were some additional unlocks you could get as a guild commander that only displayed to people in your guild? Maybe if you are in guild only mode on your tag you have some additional tools?

I think that for now it would be a fair deal and if possible with the other concept of counting supplies to be easier. The whole red tag for defensive commanders and green for offensive idea can be saved for another time, what we need now is a way to see supplies better, be able to have a pin option that only your guild can see and have the option to assign a lieutenant.

The rest can come with time and to be honest if people did assign lieutenants while they’re leading a massive zerg it would be someone from their guild.

So recap on what I think we need NOW is:
– Make pin invisible to guild only.
– Easier supply check method, one without needing to type if possible.
– Ability to assign a lieutenant while in guild hiding pin mode or not.
Edit – And also less chat suppression for commanders.

This is what I personally think we need most, it will help separate zergs a little by helping guilds group up and do their own raiding while one general player based pin can do the rest. The rest can come with time, for example an option to show different colored pins, we will have to deal with communicating in TS between commanders on coordination.

I would like to see a complete revamp of how to get the commander tag
Instead of buying a book for 100g make it a guild build feature
maybe in Politics Level 3 or so
so the guild leader can promote players from his guild with an option to be commander for the guild
in Politics Level 4 commanders can be seen now from public too if they want to and become mobile waypoints for easier rally (only on maps not in dungeons or so)
in Art of War Level 3 give the guild leader option to promote players from his guild as WvW Commander
in Art of War Level 4 WvW Commander can be seen from public now too if they want too and promote targets on the map where to rally
in Architecture Level 3 an upgrade for the commander icon to display the guild emblem

this would fix the issue of commander tag not being account bound
and would give some sort of quality check who gets the commander tag

DevonCarver.5370:

Thedenofsin.7340:

Here is my question:

What is wrong with the Raid Leader system in WoW that precludes GW2 from adopting it? That system is at least 5 years old (I think it’s closer to 10) and worked extremely well.

The Raid Leader system in WoW provided:
– raid leaders (aka commanders)
– raid assistants (aka lieutenants)
– multiple target markers for assigning priority/actions
– on-screen message overlays for providing clear, concise directions

If you had this system in GW2, you would eliminate many of the problems in WvW and PVE and PVP to boot!

I’ll respond to this to get the general idea out to everyone. Implementing a system that is in other games, older games or not, that is not in our game at all is a very time consuming project. It is not as simple as just copying and pasting some HTML code. Not only do we have to build it ourselves, but it has to fit with the design of our game both visually and from a systems standpoint. So, building any system of this sort, even one that was a direct copy of one in another game or product, would still be a significant project for us. Which isn’t a reason not to do it, but is a factor in determining when we would want to do those things.

I understand that it is a time-consuming process (I write massive simulations as my full time job). However, this subject must have come up during initial development. During that time, there had to be a discussion where the developers weighed the pro’s and con’s of implementing a system and there had to be some kind of decision that resulted in ultimately not deciding to implement it. Perhaps the team even used some kind of formal decision making process where you assigned values and weights to the decision factors.
There is probably some reason why this wasn’t implemented in the first place, with a good reason. I am curious what that reason was. Did it simply boil down to utility?

Obviously this is your game, and you and your team gets to decide how to best spend your resources. Personally, I am of the opinion that such a system as the referenced raid leader system provides a mechanism that facilitates:
* assignment of priorities in a team
* delegation of authority
* clear direction and command
* learning of objectives, strategies and tactics

As can be seen, these issues are not germane to only WvW, but apply directly to PVE (dungeons, guild missions, open world content such as Tequatl and the Tower of Nightmares), and sPvP (where to move, what points to prioritize, when to take down treb or Lord, etc.).

If your teams are segregated according to game subfunction (PVE, WwW, PvP), one could make a strong argument to pool resources across all subfunctions to implement this mechanic, as all aspects of the game would greatly benefit from it.

DevonCarver.5370:

Thedenofsin.7340:

Here is my question:

What is wrong with the Raid Leader system in WoW that precludes GW2 from adopting it? That system is at least 5 years old (I think it’s closer to 10) and worked extremely well.

The Raid Leader system in WoW provided:
– raid leaders (aka commanders)
– raid assistants (aka lieutenants)
– multiple target markers for assigning priority/actions
– on-screen message overlays for providing clear, concise directions

If you had this system in GW2, you would eliminate many of the problems in WvW and PVE and PVP to boot!

I’ll respond to this to get the general idea out to everyone. Implementing a system that is in other games, older games or not, that is not in our game at all is a very time consuming project. It is not as simple as just copying and pasting some HTML code. Not only do we have to build it ourselves, but it has to fit with the design of our game both visually and from a systems standpoint. So, building any system of this sort, even one that was a direct copy of one in another game or product, would still be a significant project for us. Which isn’t a reason not to do it, but is a factor in determining when we would want to do those things.

We understand that it is very time consuming but there are fundamental items that are required in commander system that aren’t there yet.

1) We have to know who is in the squad and where they are located on the map as well as invite/kick options. This is extremely important. This is one of the main reason why wvw aside from guilds groups, simply looks like a mess of players following the nearest pin.

2) Secondary markers only visable to those in squad.
3) Player information: Dead/alive, supply info, location on the map.

If necessary, please feel free to limit the commander squad into max limit of ~50. Everyone can see the pin, but those who join should be able to be more organized. The essence of being in a “raid” group doesn’t exist in gw2. At the minimum the squad system should provide on radar map, the location of all the squad members. the total supply info within 1200 radius of the commander and names of everyone who is in the squad with option of kicking from squad and banning from squad.

I have a few great suggestions for commander system in Guild Wars 2.

First of all, squad needs to be shown on the map and should be extended for at least 50 people. Everyone in the squad should have special squad symbol above their heads. Commander should be able to invite people in squad and kick from it. That’s what you promised 1 year ago on official wiki before deleting it, btw.

Secondly, I suggest you to create a system, which will show for how long certain commander has his tag. It’d prevent server from losing all towers/castles with inexperienced commander and will help commanders to get ‘respect’ from players if he has his tag for 1, 3 or 5 years, for example. It’s a serious problem today with community reaction on commanders whom they don’t know. I have several friends who just bought commander for themselves and they simply don’t want to tag up even when map is without commander, because people disrespect them. Newbie color for 1-3 months commander will smooth this situation, while Veteran color for 1-5 years will sow the seed of confidence in people. We all know how hard it was to obtain commander at release and only devoted to WvW people’ve bought it and have an incredible experience for now.

Finally, promoting squad officers who can invite/kick people to/from the squad would be great.

I hope that you’ll listen my suggestions and we’ll see them in the game soon.

DevonCarver.5370:

Thedenofsin.7340:

Here is my question:

What is wrong with the Raid Leader system in WoW that precludes GW2 from adopting it? That system is at least 5 years old (I think it’s closer to 10) and worked extremely well.

The Raid Leader system in WoW provided:
– raid leaders (aka commanders)
– raid assistants (aka lieutenants)
– multiple target markers for assigning priority/actions
– on-screen message overlays for providing clear, concise directions

If you had this system in GW2, you would eliminate many of the problems in WvW and PVE and PVP to boot!

I’ll respond to this to get the general idea out to everyone. Implementing a system that is in other games, older games or not, that is not in our game at all is a very time consuming project. It is not as simple as just copying and pasting some HTML code. Not only do we have to build it ourselves, but it has to fit with the design of our game both visually and from a systems standpoint. So, building any system of this sort, even one that was a direct copy of one in another game or product, would still be a significant project for us. Which isn’t a reason not to do it, but is a factor in determining when we would want to do those things.

Tbh many of us have been waiting for a UI change since launch. If you were to come out say “Yes we will do it, it will take x months however” we would all be happy.

Many previous comments on change were met with vague statements like ’ it’s being looked into’ which didn’t really give us any confidence that anything was going to get done.

Sure it’s a shame that after all the requests over the past year we are only now fleshing out ideas on how to do it, but better late than never I say.

Devon every time I read your responses it makes me believe that it is you plus 1-2 people working on WvW.
I think before we can begin saying what we want. I think we need to understand what your team is capable of. If you are saying an overlay and a raid system is a major project, what does that mean? What is considered a minor project for you? Shouldn’t a company and a game with millions of players, millions of money coming from gems etc, be able to do a major project in 2-3 months? It is not like this is an indie game…

When another group of the company is producing every 3-4 weeks a new MAJOR update, why can’t they skip one month and help you guys do what is needed, and what is needed is a major boost in WvW systems/UI.

All I hear from you is “this is a major project, it could take a very long time”, this makes me feel like I’m being pressured into your “short-term update” like it was mentioned earlier.

Can you please explain what major and minor projects mean for you/ for us/ timewise?
i.e
Color badges = minor , maybe 2 months
Lieutenant = major, maybe 6months.
etc
(hope I’m on topic, and sorry if someone mentioned this before, since I haven’t read all of the thread)

IT would be great to have a seperate commander UI, where he/she can designate ground targets for focus fire, areas of interest, etc. Colored markers that only people in your squad can see.

Maybe even be able to put down “ghost” seige to show where they want seige placed. THen someone can throw the blue print down on the spot commander designates where the ghost siege is located.

Witchking.4380:

If necessary, please feel free to limit the commander squad into max limit of ~50. Everyone can see the pin, but those who join should be able to be more organized. The essence of being in a “raid” group doesn’t exist in gw2. At the minimum the squad system should provide on radar map, the location of all the squad members. the total supply info within 1200 radius of the commander and names of everyone who is in the squad with option of kicking from squad and banning from squad.

Yep this is the minimum, and it is required in WvW, as I’ve been saying it should have been in the game at launch. I would actually reduce the number though to 30 ppl to help reduce zerging.

Merrik.6734:

DevonCarver.5370:

Would the commander system be functional enough with more markers, guild only tags, less suppression, better supplyinfo, and possibly additional marker shapes?

Short answer: yes

You guys answering yes to this realise he is saying that if its acceptable that they will only make these quick changes and they won’t be looking at making the more fundamental changes that have been suggested in this thread and which are required.

These quick changes are good but greater change is necessary.

Would the commander system be functional enough with more markers, guild only tags, less suppression, better supplyinfo, and possibly additional marker shapes?

Yeah. That or just extra target markers. I’m not entirely sure the commander system needs a million bells and whistles. I’m weary of a system doing too much because I don’t want to see every task micromanaged by the commander. I just want to see enough that delegation is more feasible and visible.

I’m actually curious what the original intended full features for the commander system were imagined to be.

Would the commander system be functional enough with more markers, guild only tags, less suppression, better supplyinfo, and possibly additional marker shapes?

As long as those markers are in game ones(think guild banners but taller) that are easily deployed and picked up. Not just over map waypoints. Especially important is only visable by your server. Bonus if that can be squad visual only. But really which ever of the two is easiest to implement. Especially useful would be these being quick communication tools for those not in a ts3 or in situations like tequatl where locating and joining what ever voip the group is using really eats into being able to beat him

I would like to add to the short list being better squad joining functionality. An ability to pull people into our squad (aka invite) vs having to rely on them joining on their own

Devon, et al:

Several times you’ve asked questions that leave the impression you’re looking for the easier fixes to the system, which don’t require the large investment to implement.

This begs the question, then, of how important does Anet view the ability to coordinate the battles of significant numbers of people? What types of projects would typically be deemed more important, (and thus devoted more resources sooner)? Which would typically be deemed less important?

What does Anet think the objectives and goals of providing such a coordination system?

By answering some of this (of course, not delving into specifics), it can help form the expectations of the community in terms of what forms solutions would serve the biggest benefit within a timeframe that we’d reasonably see results from. (i.e. There’s a big difference from “it takes six months to develop” and “oh, but we can’t start for another 18 months, so check back in 2016”.)

Thedenofsin.7340:

Indeed! 4 million + sales must have generated a lot of money. Where did it go?

Consider how much has to be paid back to the people who footed the bill as 300+ employees worked for ~5 years without generating a single cent of revenue.

All MMOs start out in a tremendously deep hole financially. Only some of them ever dig their way out.

If you make any changes to Commanders that would make them harder for purely PvE players to earn it, or harder for them to use, then don’t do it at all. At minimum any changes should do no harm.

As for “go big” or “go fast?” Do both. If something can be added quickly, do that. If something else would take longer but is still worth doing, get to work and let it play out. Don’t do it like a restaurant where they wait until they have every meal for the table before they bring anything out, give us our appetizers while working on the entrees.

Hello Devon,

DevonCarver.5370:

1) It seems to be consensus that a system allowing commander unlocks for WXP wouldn’t be a good move.

Unlocking comamnder via wxp is not good idea at all, but having some additional skills or effects that can buy using wxp for WvW only (maybe even a separated commander line, with some useful abilities that can be a benefit to ppl that are commanders and also to ppl that are not commanders, but are following commanders) it is an idea worth further disussion in my opion

DevonCarver.5370:

One thing that is coming up with some frequency is the idea of separating PvE commanders from WvW ones. It’s our goal to not have diverging systems like that. We’d rather build one system that can work for both areas of the game for the sake of clarity. So, that’s another constraint to consider, that we’d be making changes in the best interests of both and not changes that separate them out into unique systems.

Considering what i wrote above, spliting system to PvE and WvW we say big NO, but why not improve wxp system by some commander line? I know that some change in code might be difficult and sometimes even not possible, but using already existing wxp system to create some nice things for commanders, thats worth a shoot and it should be easier to extend something that already exist than ot create it from the beginning in such complex game. Of corse im not saying here about abilities that force ppl to tag on and running in a zerg of commanders, but rather to encourage ppl to tag on when no other commander is right now on the map and provide them a set of buffs from the commander line for better play.

DevonCarver.5370:

Perhaps the largest question I still have, how would everyone feel if the only changes to commander were the smaller scale ones? The other stuff is super interesting and has a lot of promise, but is also a major task and one I can’t make any guarantees about. I suppose the crux of the question is how priority is the rest of the stuff, if the smaller bits are taken care of? Would the commander system be functional enough with more markers, guild only tags, less suppression, better supplyinfo, and possibly additional marker shapes?

I have a feeling that you might dont want to develop a new complex system at all after this post… but i hope its not like that.
I think we do want some improvements a lot and asap, and they might be small, like fixing supplyinfo range, multicolours (they dont even have to be chooseable, they can just change when 1st, 2nd,3rd commanders tags on).
But we are waiting for something big and nice for commanders and even if it will be months to wait for it – we will probably wait :P

ptitminou.6489:

And I play on Bronze tier, I cannot imagine how big a problem it is in silver and gold. It’s very sad that we get countered non-stop while tagged, but all of a sudden, running tagless gets you almost no resistence and/or it arrives much to late. I suspect an actual hack may be at work when that happens.

On Aurora Glade (3rd in silver) it’s not thaaaaat big an issue.
I mean yes, there are some spies. But it’s not like you can’t work around that, as they can only see that commander icon easily, they cannot know where everyone actually is. In fact you can use the commander to mislead them.

I implore you to make the simple changes now and get to work as soon as feasibly possible on a squad management ui.

Get new commander tags, new colors for tags, new supplyinfo, new suppression changes out ASAP. These changes will be a QoL change that will get momentum in the right direction.

Get to work on a squad ui with raid calls, group management, health bars, etc.as soon as you can. this would be a huge boon for organized WvW.

Ahmrill.7512:

DevonCarver.5370:

Would the commander system be functional enough with more markers, guild only tags, less suppression, better supplyinfo, and possibly additional marker shapes?

What you suggested above would certianly be a welcome short-term fix. Just a slight issue with guild only tag as opposed to private (hidden pin) option.

Doesn’t the option for squad-only visibility cover this?

There’s some discussion around unlocking Commander with WXP? Personally, I don’t have that big of a problem with that, so long as the standing gold system remains. More paths to commander doesn’t really hurt, and isn’t 100 world ranks just as much dedication as 100 gold, arguably even more considering the current gem-to-gold prices?

Just have one thing there. Just Commander. No further unlocks beyond that, at least for the short term. Really, I think if we get out of this

Reduced suppression
New shapes
New colors

And you can push that out by the end of the month (well, maybe a fortnight into next month, because christmas), I’d be very happy with that personally.

Getting a “guild only mode” would be really nice! While still being able to put the tag on for everyone to see ofc.

DevonCarver.5370:

1) It seems to be consensus that a system allowing commander unlocks for WXP wouldn’t be a good move.

It could be an option but it should be an expensive one. 100g is expensive for most people. 1k badges is not really expensive in WvW, so it should be balanced.
Maybe a mix of 1k badges, laures and guild commendations?
Or any other curencies that would make sense.

DevonCarver.5370:

One thing that is coming up with some frequency is the idea of separating PvE commanders from WvW ones. It’s our goal to not have diverging systems like that. We’d rather build one system that can work for both areas of the game for the sake of clarity. So, that’s another constraint to consider, that we’d be making changes in the best interests of both and not changes that separate them out into unique systems.

DevonCarver.5370:

I have a couple of other things I’d like to mention. I don’t think we’d want to focus the commander on the guild system. It could be that I’m wrong about that, but it feels restricting to say you can’t be a commander, or a full-fledged one, unless you are in a guild of a certain size. How would people feel if, instead, there were some additional unlocks you could get as a guild commander that only displayed to people in your guild? Maybe if you are in guild only mode on your tag you have some additional tools?

Leading guild and leading a zerg is fairly the same, yet the ability to be shown on the map for guild members and see as they move would really help.
I don’t have ideas for the guild specific tools, maybe others have. For me its only a matter of visibility.

DevonCarver.5370:

Perhaps the largest question I still have, how would everyone feel if the only changes to commander were the smaller scale ones? The other stuff is super interesting and has a lot of promise, but is also a major task and one I can’t make any guarantees about. I suppose the crux of the question is how priority is the rest of the stuff, if the smaller bits are taken care of? Would the commander system be functional enough with more markers, guild only tags, less suppression, better supplyinfo, and possibly additional marker shapes?

I think that problem should be resolved in 2 parts:
1). Easy changes should be implemented in next few updates.
2). Major revamp should be scheduled in future.

People would feel a lot better if changes were done (those fast ones) so we can feel the change. At the end you could to summary saying: those additional features should come in the future, and those we will try but we aren’t sure if possible.

Thanks for very good summary.

DevonCarver.5370:

Would the commander system be functional enough with more markers, guild only tags, less suppression, better supplyinfo, and possibly additional marker shapes?

Done Deal.

This deals with the most prominent issues. A full overhaul can be done in the long run and isn’t that urgent anymore if these points are addressed. This probably mean never, but I’ll take what’s possible now anyway.

Nike.2631:

Thedenofsin.7340:

Indeed! 4 million + sales must have generated a lot of money. Where did it go?

Consider how much has to be paid back to the people who footed the bill as 300+ employees worked for ~5 years without generating a single cent of revenue.

All MMOs start out in a tremendously deep hole financially. Only some of them ever dig their way out.

Septemptus.7164:

I think that problem should be resolved in 2 parts:
1). Easy changes should be implemented in next few updates.
2). Major revamp should be scheduled in future.

People would feel a lot better if changes were done (those fast ones) so we can feel the change. At the end you could to summary saying: those additional features should come in the future, and those we will try but we aren’t sure if possible.

Epic +1 for this kind of implementation! (not the first one to say)

Fast upgrades:
-Supply info range (should be like one value change, some QA problems about performance, but after Thaumanova without Waypoint…)
-Closed/Guild tag (add invite to squad and limit mark visibility according choise of implement)
-Mark colour (few UI buttons/automatic colour assing)

…and don’t forget long term upgrade.

If I could only get two minor changes instantly they would be:
1) increased suppression – This affects both PvE and WvW. It is near impossible to co-ordinate large groups (Think temple of Balthazar when co-ordinations multiple pins and reminding people to HEAL, FEAR and STUN – so the NPCs are protected during the run.
Or even TEQ who the commanders have to educate the entire map – we hit the limit far too easily.
Now think WvW: BUFF, STACK,PUSH, STOP, FALLBACK,…). All of these commands come very rapidly. We even hit suppression when trying to explain roles/sort out groups or ask questions. Most commanders will use the map or team chat for the good of the server. Those who decide to have random conversations which are not game related will be reported by the players. The suppression often affects whispers, say, team chat – and can stop progress completely turning a good fight into an instant loss.
Even in WvW it is difficult to co-ordinate without voice comms and most people don’t like to bother with that (makes it even more difficult).
2) Different pin colours (commander choice) – even if it the same Dorito shape for the moment.

I would love to see these as an early Xmas present (pretty please) with a refund via in-game email to those of us who have multiple commander pins – if it becomes account wide (some peeps have 8 commander pins- that money they will put back into the game to buy other stuff and ensure they don’t feel stung). It’s going to really hurt people if this change happens and they have only just purchased a new pin recently.

I agree with many of the suggestions and think the system does need a major overhaul: added functionality, macros (we don’t want to have to use third party systems to type “/supplyinfo” or “x is ready – push here” for example. These macros should be commander configurable) and many more ideas which have been suggested.

I don’t really want to see a major obstacle preventing PvE commanders (there are some fantastic ones out there) moving into WvW unable to PIN up when there are none available. A pin (learning) is generally better than no PIN at all. I do want to see multiple pins in WvW to stop the single pin/Zerg mentality – this encourages smaller groups with different objectives that can be co-ordinate together more easily which is made possible by different colours.

Is there any way we can get a list of short term goals to vote on?
-> get these in the next build before Xmas?

And a series of long term goals to vote on?
(Order of importance to you and what type of commander you are).

- it must be pretty hard to work out what is most important to people via forum threads (it doesn’t cover the entire player base of commanders).
Possibly get an in-game poll going to current active commanders (who pin up) who are in-game ?

This would also help get coverage for future changes and ensure all commanders participate in the discussion.

Isaiah Cartwright and DevonCarver

I understand you rather keep all suggestion in this thread and this thread only to avoid having multiple threads to dig true. But as i made some visualization of the idea’s and wanted feedback on the images/ideas i created a reddit thread about that to keep track of it that was easier for me.

The thread its regarding i: http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/1s42hg/commander_suggestions_visualized/

Maybe you also can get some ideas out of that

I would like to see a lot of changes to WvW in general that can be implemented in a good commander system.

-Add squads to commanders: each squad consists of 5 members. Each squad reports to only one commander. (something like a specialized party)
-Being in a squad or with a commander squad unlocks the ability to spawn/teleport close to the commander or squad member under certain circumstances (e.g. not in combat, range limitation, upgrade at keep, others I can’t think of right now)
-Add more tools to commander/squad commanders to set targets, waypoints etc
-Add a shout system to commanders/squad commanders via party panel (retreat, stack, charge, follow etc)
-Add a spotting system: Sighted objects may be called out for squad or commander squad. Objects marked like that appear on minimap within certain range and as long as a single member actually has sights on that target. When object breaks line of sight, the marker is lost.
-Disposing of objects, capturing objects etc add to the commander score (future use)
-(Change aoe limit to 25 or more, change retaliation to buff your character instead of mirroring damage to the target, should break zerging)
-Improve or add commands like supplyinfo

These points should add a lot to WvW and improve gameplay. Ofc, it changes how it is played, but improve gameplay in the long run by reducing the effectiveness of zergtrains. Spawning or teleporting may encourage tactical play a lot and make it easier to design bigger, more complex WvW maps.

Would be nice to have tags that only people in your squad can see, going beyond the “guild only” tag idea, so big guilds can have more than one commander on a map doing stuff without affecting the “main” zerg. Also the ability to hide tags from commanders not in your squad. (This stuff has probably already been suggested, but I haven’t read through the full topic.)

There’s a couple of small changes I’d love to see on the map (as in – the actual map that comes up when you press ‘M’):

1. Remember last zoom level. It’s annoying having to zoom to the level you want over and over again every time you open the map.

2. Make the map show instantly when you press ‘M’. The opening/closing map animations get annoying if you have to check the map a few times in quick succession.

Having a guild commander system that you could unlock and didn’t require the 100g normal com tag would be super for guild events

I haven’t gone through and read everything but a couple things come to mind as “quick fixes”.

Take everything you can gleam from chat commands and stick em in a UI element.

As others have said numerous times now, have the tag show only for guildies as an option, at the very least.

One other somewhat unrelated thing, for the love of all that’s holy, remove the kick from guild option from the party menu. I refuse to manage parties anymore (maybe it is gone already?) just for that reason.

an idea for the prevention of abusive behavior: if we allow commanders to do more stuff than regular players (like a higher mapchat cap before he gets suppressed), this might be used by players which actually want to damage the server. a solution might be to link some of powers to the squad size of the commander while also increasing squad functionality. currently i dont want to join squads because if another guild decides to tag up (for better coordination) i cant see them, if im in a squad.
let me decide whether i can still see other commander icons (and how, like only half visible, different color etc) and maybe some more. maybe let commanders with a certain squad size decide whether a tower/castle can be upgraded by everyone or whether only he can upgrade it, let him upgrade per remote (so he doesnt has to walk there everytime) and/or let him set up queues for upgrading so he can go for walls and gates directly. this might prevent upgrade-denial like queueing “bad things” on headstart.
maybe let a squad member decide whether he want to pay for an upgrade on a shared basis (if 10 or more squad member are willing to contribute the commander can enable it and once he upgrades the cost is distributed on the commander and every contributing squad member) however, this is a minor issue really, the abuse-prevention might be worth thinking about it though, depending on what you plan to do obviously.

besides, i’d like to scale the on-screen commander icon on my own (not on the minimap but the blue thingy flying above the head of the commander). currently i think it could be a bit bigger. the more options the better

Svarty.8019:

Ahmrill.7512:

DevonCarver.5370:

Would the commander system be functional enough with more markers, guild only tags, less suppression, better supplyinfo, and possibly additional marker shapes?

What you suggested above would certianly be a welcome short-term fix. Just a slight issue with guild only tag as opposed to private (hidden pin) option.

Doesn’t the option for squad-only visibility cover this?

If you join a squad currently it doesn’t show other commander pins. If we have guild or private pins, it would be necessary to see other public commander pins so havoc squads can see where they can ambush and cause trouble.

Sometimes havoc forces need to be stealthy and keep the size of the force controlled. This is impossible with a visible pin on the map that everyone can see and flock too…. it defeats the purpose. Devon has mentioned guild commanders, and I’m assuming that only people in your guild would actually see the pin. (as opposed to everyone on the map). Sometimes you want to run a havoc force of guild members AND non-guild friends that consists of 2-3 groups only. That’s why I’d prefer a “private” pin option as opposed to a “guild” pin option.

Just allow us to hide the commander pin from everyone NOT currently in the squad. We can use it to make private guild squads or guild & friend only squads or whatever players enjoy running. But we still need to see the public commander pins while we are in a private or guild only squad.

DevonCarver.5370:

One thing that is coming up with some frequency is the idea of separating PvE commanders from WvW ones. It’s our goal to not have diverging systems like that. We’d rather build one system that can work for both areas of the game for the sake of clarity. So, that’s another constraint to consider, that we’d be making changes in the best interests of both and not changes that separate them out into unique systems.

I see your point, but would appreciate you considering this: some degree of distinction between PvE and WvW commanders would only benefit the community as a whole, because improvised commanders generally leads to poor gaming experience in both cases, and I also think that we should ensure for newcomers a wider array of chances to get a positive gaming experience. If it is true that WvW veterans know most of the commanders or – in general- all the people worth following, what about new players? in the “big picture” we hope for even more players to join the game and become regulars, and what’s better for this than trying the best to ensure a positive experience?
Giving you A.Net folks are reluctant to do a clear separation, then I got an idea that may somehow be fair for everyone: what about implementing a reputation system? to avoid discouraging new commanders, the system will be reset every week, and it can either be “neutral” or “positive” (showing the amount of +1 that the commander got in that week). No negative feedback, that -imho- would not be constructive (many very good commanders had not a brilliant start, so I believe the system should be meant to encourage rather than discourage).

How would people feel if, instead, there were some additional unlocks you could get as a guild commander that only displayed to people in your guild? Maybe if you are in guild only mode on your tag you have some additional tools?

this somehow resembles what some guys -me included- were asking for with “invisible tags”. I would not talk about “additional tools” ’tho, because guildless folks and players in smaller guilds would feel discriminated: I am sure there is a way to differentiate the tools and balance them to avoid anyone feeling left out.

Perhaps the largest question I still have, how would everyone feel if the only changes to commander were the smaller scale ones?

I would be perfectly fine with this in the short run, it would give me and friends hundreds of hours of fun while waiting for you guys to completely revamp the system.

Would the commander system be functional enough with more markers, guild only tags, less suppression, better supplyinfo, and possibly additional marker shapes?

it definitely would be, but I -and for sure loooots of players- expect in some future to see all (and many more) the options we discussed in this thread implemented in the actual game.

Group leaders are way more important for the players experience than it seems…

DevonCarver.5370:

(…) Perhaps the largest question I still have, how would everyone feel if the only changes to commander were the smaller scale ones? The other stuff is super interesting and has a lot of promise, but is also a major task and one I can’t make any guarantees about. I suppose the crux of the question is how priority is the rest of the stuff, if the smaller bits are taken care of? Would the commander system be functional enough with more markers, guild only tags, less suppression, better supplyinfo, and possibly additional marker shapes?

The commander’s icon could have the option to change the color: red (attack), green (defence), yellow (guild), and current color (general purposes).

Also, the Shift + left click system to mark things (mark a direction, path or point to go)on the mini map for the party members could be extended. The squads could be divided in, for example, 3 sub-squads (instead of have a “join squad” option, would be “join squad 1”, “join squad 2”, etc), and the commander could mark directions in the mini-map (as we can do in a normal party) with Shift (could be a different key) + left click for squad 1, [another key] + left click for saqud 2, etc.

With this the commander could give directions to each squad separately. The commander could also have separated chats for each scuad: instead of /squad, it would be /squad1, /scuad2, etc.

Ahmrill.7512:

We often run guild only forces, but occasionally invite non-guild members for multiple group havoc forces. People shouldn’t be forced to leave a guild and join yours, just so they can run under your pin. Making a private option allows for guild only, or guild with some friends. If players enjoy running smaller size forces consisting of a few groups, it shouldn’t exclude non- guild members.

Agree with this to an extent — I’d like to see it where people who are members of your guild, even if not currently representing, can see the tag and join the squad.

EnemyCrusher.7324:

For a basic tag to use in PvE, yes, but I’d like to see more requirements to distinguish seasoned commanders from “gem store commanders”.

I’ve had a thought about this. I really don’t think you should have to sacrifice points to be a commander. I’ve talked about reputation being what makes a good commander, so my suggestion is an approval rating system. Being able to thumb up or down a commander. The thumb down needs to be available to negate those who would ask their friends to thumb them up, of course the approval rating wouldn’t be able to go below zero.

To see the ratings or rate the commander, the player would right-click on the commander’s name and select See Rating, or Rate only while the tag is up.