Guild Wars 2

Allie Murdock.8152:

The Ranger isn’t expected to do burst damage. By sustained, we mean that the Ranger should excel at surviving (resilient) through burst while still doing enough damage over time to take the opponent down.

If we have to trade burst damage for surviving, can we at least get resilient without the need to trait to be tanky? Every other class can do that but better.

runeblade.7514:

Allie Murdock.8152:

The Ranger isn’t expected to do burst damage. By sustained, we mean that the Ranger should excel at surviving (resilient) through burst while still doing enough damage over time to take the opponent down.

If we have to trade burst damage for surviving, can we at least get resilient without the need to trait to be tanky? Every other class can do that but better.

Anet nerfed ranger vigor, nerfed pets, nerfed shortbow, but we must excel at surviving……..

Jocksy.3415:

runeblade.7514:

Arghore.8340:

Specific Game Mode
PvX

Proposal Overview
Any amount of healing a pet receives is enough to resurrect it with the amount of health it gained from that healing

Goal of Proposal
The goal of this proposal is a work around for the pet reliability. By having the pet be ressed by any amount of healing means that the ranger can actively res a pet by using various healing skills.

But also, similar to how the pet dies from random AE, it now also benefits from random AE healing.

Proposal Functionality
If a pet receives any healing from any source, and the pet is dead, it is resurrected with the amount of health it would have gained from the healing source would it not have been dead.

Associated Risks
Non that I can think of, the pet will become somewhat more of a reliable source, and the ranger will have the option to resurrect their dead pet by using a healing skill, instead of using a swap. It actually reduces the risk of putting a res on a specific ranger healing skill and ‘bombarding it’ to the ‘must have heal for the ranger’.

sorry for interrupting the shouts discussion, this just popped in my head while going over the ranger skills for specific shout issues/improvements/sollutions, and seeing I think this can work in concurrence with other pet solutions I thought it best to just post it anyways, SHOUTS !!

Risk:

• Signet of the wild will make the pet immortal.
• Pet becomes impossible to kill.
• Doesn’t make the pet reliable. It just make the pet immortal.

But if we just make it to be direct heals, and not regens or passive heals, might be a good idea… (if alive, takes regen, if dead, don’t, needs an active heal, like a burst on water field or an activated master’s heal… not just from Ele’s fields, Gard’s traited dodge or other source)

I just hate when my pet is about to die, I have 3 sec CD on heal, 2 sec on pet swap, I spam F3 for it to get out of there, but Bam! dead, 60 sec CD…

Okay, risk:

• Pet becomes impossible to kill.
• Doesn’t make the pet reliable. It just make the pet immortal.

Point still stand.

Pets have high health and rarely ever focused on so pets shouldn’t die within 3 seconds. With pet swap in a 20 second skill and healing skill on a 20-30 second cooldown. It is still overpowered strong.

Phenn.5167:

Honestly, this has become one of the more disappointing CDIs since the project began. I understand the devs are “reading through every post,” but the concept of collaboration necessitates, well, collaboration.

As many have already said, without any sort of direction from the devs (not just community orchestrators, but those who can actually make things happen for the Ranger), this thread devolves into a prettily-formatted wishlist—of which the Ranger subforum is already full.

Those posting here deserve:

• Feedback on their ideas—what part of the profession can be changed? What areas areas are a waste of time discussing for now?
• Open discussion about the state of the Ranger in the present iteration of the game—not some idyllic future conceptualization.
• Frank conversation about the stark differences between PvP and PvE and how “balance” in one dramatically affects the other.

Until true collaboration takes place here, I worry that the initiative is failing.

Of course, and trust me, you’re not the only one. In some regards, though, it’s at the very least an attempt to make things better. Clearly, the subforum in its entirety has been ignored, and apparently this thread means more than that, so we might as well just post and hope.

Thus I will continue my post/wish list albeit with low expectations.

GAME MODE: PvX

Overview:
One of many requests for allowing the pet to be stowed during combat for a bonus to damage throughput by the ranger alone to be equal to that of other classes’; some trait/skill changes.

Goal of Proposal:
The objective of the following will resolve many issues with the following current state of the ranger:
- Poor pet performance.
- Limited valid play styles.
- Deadlocking players into particular styles of play
- Undesirable dungeon partners/expulsion from parties for simply playing a ranger.
- Improper gear scaling/No room for improvement over the base game.
- Bad character flavor/limited Roleplaying potential.

Proposal Functionality:
ARCHERS
First and foremost, the largest and arguably most-demanded change to the ranger class regarding the option to remove pets from combat for a 30% increase in damage dealt by the ranger should be implemented. This fix resolves all of the above because:
1.) A pet cannot perform poorly if it is not in combat and the player is totally in control.
2.) Removing the pet effectively doubles the options regarding play styles in it of itself. A ranger with a longbow with a pet will be far different from a ranger with a longbow, thus increasing options.
3.) Players are no longer forced to use the class mechanic. Every other class in the game is not required to use theirs (aside from Thief Initiative, but that system does not detriment the thief and acts like a cooldown system unique to all classes); thieves can build without steal, mesmers do not need to shatter, warriors do not need or even often use adrenaline skills, engineers do not require extensive kit use, etc. Players become free to play with or without a pet based on preferred style.
4.) The ranger now becomes much more viable in dungeon runs, for he can now deal sufficient damage to match other classes and also provide solid aoe healing/condition clear through healing spring and vulnerability stacking.
5.) Since pets do not scale on gear, and ascended releases have drastically changed stats since release, a modifier to damage/attack when stowed allows for ranger to scale better and deal his proper damage.
6.) A ranger is forced into a pet identity. Players interested in RP’ing either must compensate (never a good thing) or pick another class, overall making all RP-based ranger characters have seemingly the same background/flavor to them.

Implementation Strategy/Why this works
Prevent pet stow/release to be toggled while in combat. This prevents rangers from building exclusively raw damage in both themselves and through pets to open with a power series of attacks while utilizing Rampage as One/utilities/pet skills and then stowing their pet to deal absurd amounts of damage. This coheres to the current vision for Rangers by allowing for the pets to retain their vital utility if not specialized into for damage, while forcing quick and smart decision-making for the ranger as to whether or not he should use a pet or not. This punishes rangers who are unprepared for an encounter but also allows them to gain distinct advantages when assessing a situation and planning around it beforehand, such as one would do with an animal companion – a strategy should be necessary before simply entering combat as to avoid killing one’s pet, etc.

BEASTMASTERS
So if the pet is removed and rangers deal the damage equivalent as if having one now, what purpose is there in using the class mechanic if it’s not very reliable/functional?

The fix revolves around actually improving Beastmastery potency within the Beastmastery line.

Beastmastery traits require a redesign along the following principles:
- The pet should be the true threat with the ranger supporting it (If you’re gonna be a beastmaster, do it right, and have a pet capable of demonstrating its power). To do so, allow for heavy traiting to significantly increase the stats of the pet. As it stands, the bonuses from the Beastmastery tree are insignificant.
- Focus on support-oriented builds/skills/traits. Implement a trait which causes the pet and the character to be the source of a shout or AoE buff to increase buff spread throughout a party, allowing for longbow-poke support rangers, thus further increasing build diversity.
- Combine elements of spirits with pets. Allow for the pet to be more than what it is via heavy traiting in Beastmastery, Nature Magic, and Survival. Remove some of the pet dependency from the Power/precision lines and place these traits here and instead switch skills into the power/precision line such as Martial Mastery, Peak Strength, etc.

Major Skill/Trait Changes

-Remorseless/Signets of the Beastmaster: One of these needs a rework. Either Remorseless needs to be built into Opening Strike and a new Power skill provided to accommodate for pet builds exclusively, or Signets of the Beastmaster needs to be reworked/removed so that it is applied when the pet is stowed. As it stands, the decision is not only too difficult to make for most power/precision builds, but the class feels as though it is lacking when missing either of these skills.

- Move Peak Strength to Marksmanship XI

-Skirmishing and Wilderness survival themes changed; Traps belong in Survival and Shouts belong in Skirmishing.

- Remove/Edit XI and XII skills in Skirmishing as they are currently not worth using.

- Implement a new Elite skill for non-pet archers, reduce cooldown on Rampage as One to 100 seconds.

-Increase default Longbow and Harpoon Gun range by 300. Remove Eagle Eye (Power X).

Risks:
-Minor complaints regarding the lack of effectiveness of pets if not properly implemented, possible overpowering of rangers due to the lack of time spent developing such fixes/alterations.

-Pet phase-out in competitive environments. Resolved through examining ranger closely through the months after changes are made to tweak the pets to be equally viable and just as useful.

-Many people switching from Warrior and Thief classes to Ranger because the Ranger will now be a functional archer but more importantly a functional character. :P

i just wanted to add my opinion of the class. i myself have Mained Ranger. " 450 days played 1k+ hours"

Pets are the sole purpose of our issues. i had mentioned before hand about an " aura" for stowed pets ( search my forum history) couple months back.

the problem which i have now come to realise is that if this comes to pass. everyone will Stow there pet.

wouldnt it be better if the pet provided an aura regardless if it was stowed or not, but tone it down accordingly and keep it active through Death of the pet?

for example

Jaguar Aura = the ranger does 5% more damage and every 90seconds applys Stealth for 2 seconds
Dead Jaguar = Ranger does 3% more damage and every 60seconds applys Stealth for 4 seconds

Dead pet= Defensive aura

Alive pet = Offense Aura

Guard: Send your pet to guard target location for 8 seconds. Any stealthed targets that get within 240 unit radius of the pet are removed from stealth but do not suffer the revealed debuff. While guarding, you and your pet gain protection (8s). 30 second cooldown.

Sic ’Em: Same as now, but also grants you fury.

Protect Me: Pet gains protection so damage it takes is reduced.

Ideally you could have another

Alive Bear Aura = Ranger takes 10% less damage and removes Condiditions every 60seconds

Dead Bear aura = Ranger takes 5% less damage and removes conditions every 30seconds

@runeblade, pets only have a high health if totally slotted for them, pets shouldn’t die within 3 seconds but the fact is they still do in various game formats (mainly Dungeons/WvW) due to AE…. Due to that I am also very much in favour of giving pets a ‘dodge mechanic’ as was described earlier in this thread by Nike.****

A solution to your issue (which by all means is rightfully brought up , I hadn’t thought of that signet). Change Signet ot Wild’s functionality to no longer provide a passive health buff. Or make it only ‘direct heals’…

And I do not think it is overpowered, there is hardly a way for any other profession to so easily loose 30% of their effectiveness. So why should the ranger suffer from it…

Alive Spider Aura = Condition Duration is increased by 10% posion is applied every 45 seconds

Dead Spider Aura = Condition duration is increased by 5% posion is applied every 30 seconds

Alive Drake Aura= 33% chance to cause Blast Finisher, Viatilty increased by 5%

Dead Drake Aura = 10% chance to cause Blast finisher, Vitailty increased by 3%

Zardul.3952:

i just wanted to add my opinion of the class. i myself have Mained Ranger. " 450 days played 1k+ hours"

Pets are the sole purpose of our issues. i had mentioned before hand about an " aura" for stowed pets ( search my forum history) couple months back.

the problem which i have now come to realise is that if this comes to pass. everyone will Stow there pet.

wouldnt it be better if the pet provided an aura regardless if it was stowed or not, but tone it down accordingly and keep it active through Death of the pet?

for example

Jaguar Aura = the ranger does 5% more damage and every 90seconds applys Stealth for 2 seconds
Dead Jaguar = Ranger does 3% more damage and every 60seconds applys Stealth for 4 seconds

Dead pet= Defensive aura

Alive pet = Offense Aura

I address some of these here, albeit we posted very close to each other :P

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Collaborative-Development-Ranger-Profession/page/35#post3710750

I think what needs to be addressed is not the fact that stowing the pet becomes a better alternative but efforts need to be made to simply make beastmaster builds more potent. Remember, if a ranger drops his pet, he should only be compensated in damage, not utility, which causes the class to lose almost all of its real utility prowess on the field in order to kill something. If beastmasters are made more potent on the battlefield, through the means of the discussed short-term invincibility skill, through better stat modification with the BM line, better synergy with Nature Magic/support roles, etc., then a given ranger will not need to decide so much on picking the more powerful build but simply picking one which they prefer to play. Rangers are often split between either loving pets/liking to play with the pet/summon dynamic, or absolutely hating them and just wanting an archer. Making both equally viable is critical and ultimately why this divide needs to happen; both cannot exist in the same build.

Alive Wolf Aura = 10% chance to cause fear on crit, Knockdown range increased by 100

Dead Wolf aura = 5% chance to cause fear, Knockdown range increased by 300

Alive Moa Aura = Apply Boons to yourself and allies every 15 seconds, removed Condi every 60 seconds

Dead Moa Aura = Boons only applied to Allies, Condi removed every 30seconds

Specific Game Mode
WvW (the mode I play most but would affect other modes)

Proposal Overview
A new Swarm/Insect family of pets that functions like a living aura (something like Locust Swarm) that can surround the player defensively or be sent with F2 to deal damage over time to a target.

Goal of Proposal
To create a compromise pet family which serves the same purpose of a pet without actually being an autonomous, named physical entity. Hopefully this could be an acceptable compromise for the people who don’t want a pet. Offer a nature-themed pet-aura that could be reliably useful in extreme situations where regular pets have difficulties.

Proposal Functionality
Unlike normal pets, these pets would be summoned into existence with the F2 skill. They would deteriorate over time and then dissipate. They could not be targeted or killed.

F2 Summon Hornets -> Hornet Swarm -> Recall

Summon Hornets: Summon a swarm of hornets to absorb 10% incoming damage and torment nearby foes.
Hornet Swarm: Send your swarm to furiously attack, damaging and tormenting your foe.
Recall: Your pet returns to you.

F2 Summon Monarchs -> Dazzling Flight -> Recall
Summon Monarchs: Summon a flight of monarchs to convert incoming conditions into boons (5% chance) and confuse nearby foes.
Dazzling Flight: Send a flight of butterflies to confuse your target.
Recall: Your pet returns to you.

Associated Risks
Tons of unanswered function questions.

• What should the uptime be on a swarm?
• Should there be a way for the target to remove the swarm like removing other PvE on your face effects?
• Should the swarm’s health deteriorate at the same rate while defending and attacking or should attacking drain faster?
• What other effects/skills might swarms share?
• What complications arise from not being a technical entity? Interactions with skills/traits. Not having a cute name. What else?
• When not summoned they could be considered perma-stowed. What issues would this cause in the game and in the community? Should the swarm be summoned automatically when hit?

Technical issues galore. It is still a nature aspect which some of the “archer not druid” players might still object to. Multiple rangers using swarms on the same target (particle overloading). Confusion because of control/behavior differences with traditional pets.

DeceiverX.8361:

Zardul.3952:

i just wanted to add my opinion of the class. i myself have Mained Ranger. " 450 days played 1k+ hours"

Pets are the sole purpose of our issues. i had mentioned before hand about an " aura" for stowed pets ( search my forum history) couple months back.

the problem which i have now come to realise is that if this comes to pass. everyone will Stow there pet.

wouldnt it be better if the pet provided an aura regardless if it was stowed or not, but tone it down accordingly and keep it active through Death of the pet?

for example

Jaguar Aura = the ranger does 5% more damage and every 90seconds applys Stealth for 2 seconds
Dead Jaguar = Ranger does 3% more damage and every 60seconds applys Stealth for 4 seconds

Dead pet= Defensive aura

Alive pet = Offense Aura

I address some of these here, albeit we posted very close to each other :P

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Collaborative-Development-Ranger-Profession/page/35#post3710750

I think what needs to be addressed is not the fact that stowing the pet becomes a better alternative but efforts need to be made to simply make beastmaster builds more potent. Remember, if a ranger drops his pet, he should only be compensated in damage, not utility, which causes the class to lose almost all of its real utility prowess on the field in order to kill something. If beastmasters are made more potent on the battlefield, through the means of the discussed short-term invincibility skill, through better stat modification with the BM line, better synergy with Nature Magic/support roles, etc., then a given ranger will not need to decide so much on picking the more powerful build but simply picking one which they prefer to play. Rangers are often split between either loving pets/liking to play with the pet/summon dynamic, or absolutely hating them and just wanting an archer. Making both equally viable is critical and ultimately why this divide needs to happen; both cannot exist in the same build.

That bolded part is 100% fine by me. And, I’m not in either camp of loving pets or hating them and wanting an archer. I want a petless skermishing melee Ranger because I can’t rely on the AI to make decisions as I would.

Arghore.8340:

@runeblade, pets only have a high health if totally slotted for them, pets shouldn’t die within 3 seconds but the fact is they still do in various game formats (mainly Dungeons/WvW) due to AE…. Due to that I am also very much in favour of giving pets a ‘dodge mechanic’ as was described earlier in this thread by Nike.****

A solution to your issue (which by all means is rightfully brought up , I hadn’t thought of that signet). Change Signet ot Wild’s functionality to no longer provide a passive health buff. Or make it only ‘direct heals’…

And I do not think it is overpowered, there is hardly a way for any other profession to so easily loose 30% of their effectiveness. So why should the ranger suffer from it…

Wrong. Pets have high health in all game format, except when zerging. In PvE, their hp is already buffed immensely.

If you don’t want pets to die, then why not just suggest to remove health pools from pets and make them immortal? It is a way better solution than giving pets reincarnation all the time.

thefantasticg.3984:

DeceiverX.8361:

Zardul.3952:

i just wanted to add my opinion of the class. i myself have Mained Ranger. " 450 days played 1k+ hours"

Pets are the sole purpose of our issues. i had mentioned before hand about an " aura" for stowed pets ( search my forum history) couple months back.

the problem which i have now come to realise is that if this comes to pass. everyone will Stow there pet.

wouldnt it be better if the pet provided an aura regardless if it was stowed or not, but tone it down accordingly and keep it active through Death of the pet?

for example

Jaguar Aura = the ranger does 5% more damage and every 90seconds applys Stealth for 2 seconds
Dead Jaguar = Ranger does 3% more damage and every 60seconds applys Stealth for 4 seconds

Dead pet= Defensive aura

Alive pet = Offense Aura

I address some of these here, albeit we posted very close to each other :P

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Collaborative-Development-Ranger-Profession/page/35#post3710750

I think what needs to be addressed is not the fact that stowing the pet becomes a better alternative but efforts need to be made to simply make beastmaster builds more potent. Remember, if a ranger drops his pet, he should only be compensated in damage, not utility, which causes the class to lose almost all of its real utility prowess on the field in order to kill something. If beastmasters are made more potent on the battlefield, through the means of the discussed short-term invincibility skill, through better stat modification with the BM line, better synergy with Nature Magic/support roles, etc., then a given ranger will not need to decide so much on picking the more powerful build but simply picking one which they prefer to play. Rangers are often split between either loving pets/liking to play with the pet/summon dynamic, or absolutely hating them and just wanting an archer. Making both equally viable is critical and ultimately why this divide needs to happen; both cannot exist in the same build.

That bolded part is 100% fine by me. And, I’m not in either camp of loving pets or hating them and wanting an archer. I want a petless skermishing melee Ranger.

And I believe it’s something people are mistaking when considering such a change. Having no condi clear aside from heal, no buffs, no CC, no aggro soaking, no extra effects, etc. is extremely inhibitory. Thus, all that is necessary is an increase in damage to compensate for the lost hits/RoA might stacks and the offensive bonuses which Signet of the Beastmaster provides (thus why I suggest it should be replaced with pet stowing and removed from the game as a trait), causing all remaining real utility to be forgone for the sole purpose of dealing damage. It makes both builds equally useful with some added bonuses to the BM line and potentially even more favorable for BM’s as they can revive allies/assist elsewhere while the pet fights and deals damage.

@Zardul, there is a thread created specifically to elaborate on the aura idea. I would urge you to make one worked out suggestion for it and post it:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/NOT-the-CDI-Ranger-Aspects-an-alternative/first#post3701028
There, that way it can be commented on as a whole, tnx

misterdevious.6482:

How would the anti-pet people feel about a new pet family that worked more like a Locust Swarm chain skill? I’m writing up a proposal.

• F2 would summon the swarm aura around you to defend you and hit nearby foes.
• Hitting F2 again would send the swarm to deal consistent damage over time to your target.
• Hitting it again would return the swarm to you.
• It could not be targeted, killed, or named, instead it would gradually lose health over time and disappear.

That’s actually a very good idea, very “fresh” if I may say. I would allow the swarm to be hit like any other pet though.

We should think about your proposal misterdevious, extend it and make it more specific but this is a good start indeed!

DeceiverX.8361:

thefantasticg.3984:

DeceiverX.8361:

Zardul.3952:

i just wanted to add my opinion of the class. i myself have Mained Ranger. " 450 days played 1k+ hours"

Pets are the sole purpose of our issues. i had mentioned before hand about an " aura" for stowed pets ( search my forum history) couple months back.

the problem which i have now come to realise is that if this comes to pass. everyone will Stow there pet.

wouldnt it be better if the pet provided an aura regardless if it was stowed or not, but tone it down accordingly and keep it active through Death of the pet?

for example

Jaguar Aura = the ranger does 5% more damage and every 90seconds applys Stealth for 2 seconds
Dead Jaguar = Ranger does 3% more damage and every 60seconds applys Stealth for 4 seconds

Dead pet= Defensive aura

Alive pet = Offense Aura

I address some of these here, albeit we posted very close to each other :P

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Collaborative-Development-Ranger-Profession/page/35#post3710750

I think what needs to be addressed is not the fact that stowing the pet becomes a better alternative but efforts need to be made to simply make beastmaster builds more potent. Remember, if a ranger drops his pet, he should only be compensated in damage, not utility, which causes the class to lose almost all of its real utility prowess on the field in order to kill something. If beastmasters are made more potent on the battlefield, through the means of the discussed short-term invincibility skill, through better stat modification with the BM line, better synergy with Nature Magic/support roles, etc., then a given ranger will not need to decide so much on picking the more powerful build but simply picking one which they prefer to play. Rangers are often split between either loving pets/liking to play with the pet/summon dynamic, or absolutely hating them and just wanting an archer. Making both equally viable is critical and ultimately why this divide needs to happen; both cannot exist in the same build.

That bolded part is 100% fine by me. And, I’m not in either camp of loving pets or hating them and wanting an archer. I want a petless skermishing melee Ranger.

And I believe it’s something people are mistaking when considering such a change. Having no condi clear aside from heal, no buffs, no CC, no aggro soaking, no extra effects, etc. is extremely inhibitory. Thus, all that is necessary is an increase in damage to compensate for the lost hits/RoA might stacks and the offensive bonuses which Signet of the Beastmaster provides (thus why I suggest it should be replaced with pet stowing and removed from the game as a trait), causing all remaining real utility to be forgone for the sole purpose of dealing damage. It makes both builds equally useful with some added bonuses to the BM line and potentially even more favorable for BM’s as they can revive allies/assist elsewhere while the pet fights and deals damage.

In the end all PVE/Dungeons is about is doing as much damage as you can as fast as you can while actively mitigating any damage by doding/evading. So yeah, none of that utility, unless it provides a straight damage increase, is neccessary. Only for specific situations does one need to bring utility that Rangers have and that is stability. And if you know you’re going to need more condi cleansing you run the signet… And I don’t run Signet of the Beastmaster at all because in my experience the actives on the signets are bad. I usually run QZ, condi romving signet if I need it, frost spirit, muddy terrian, and something else that is of lesser importance. I don’t run any pet aiding utilities because they can’t avoid AOE so they end up dead anyway.

Dave Pare.2069:

misterdevious.6482:

How would the anti-pet people feel about a new pet family that worked more like a Locust Swarm chain skill? I’m writing up a proposal.

• F2 would summon the swarm aura around you to defend you and hit nearby foes.
• Hitting F2 again would send the swarm to deal consistent damage over time to your target.
• Hitting it again would return the swarm to you.
• It could not be targeted, killed, or named, instead it would gradually lose health over time and disappear.

That’s actually a very good idea, very “fresh” if I may say. I would allow the swarm to be hit like any other pet though.

We should think about your proposal misterdevious, extend it and make it more specific but this is a good start indeed!

It’s just so anti-ranger, though. Locusts/Swarms are like the epitome of killing nature. That’s something which honestly belongs on a necromancer (and they already have Locust Swarm as a skill as well as another Insect-based skill).

I don’t see what’s so wrong with simply giving the option to remove pets for bonuses to damage. Obviously those begging to keep their utility skills working without the pet are in the wrong as it would defeat the purpose, but looking at my proposal above, would those who appreciate pets not prefer to be able to explore that option further and also allow others to builds more heavily into a role they wish to play rather than some kind of weird beastmaster/warden/archer failed class hybrid that the ranger class as stated by ANet is?

It’s not hard to know what needs to be done.

Area: PvP.

Proposal: Greatsword and trait changes to improve build diversity.

Goal: Increase build diversity and viability without overpowering tanky condi ranger any more than it is.

Funcionality:
GS 4: needs to be a straight block so that when focused by more than 1 person it is a useful survival skill. When the counterattack is triggered it can be kited by the enemy (not ok), also it forces you into a 1 second animation which is a self stun. As a power dps that 1 second costs your life.

GS 5: Hilt bash needs an increased range because an enemy running away from you is impossible to hit.

Traits: Power ranger lacks something, damage, sustainability, boon rip, condi removal, etc.
The lack of damage is because of the pet which I am sure everyone else is bringing up.
The lack of sustainability is from the fact we lack damage and are forced into 30/30 (full zerk) to do enough damage to try to be viable that we lose the condi removal from 30 in wilderness survival (which every ranger HAS taken since launch because of the pigeon hole).
Power ranger is dependent on CC while condi tanky ranger is dependent on evades. Stability slaughters the power ranger because it leaves the character with almost no damage mitigation so some sort of on demand prioritized boon rip (steal) or an excess of boon rip (mesmer) would be nice.
Condi removal, no matter what you are facing (power warrior/condi engi etc) condis are an issue and being forced to go 30/30 leaves the character with 1 condi removal, signet of renewal. Therefore I suggest some sort of remove three conditions on quickness gain or something so that the full DPS class can either go 30/30 with QZ or go 0/30/0/0/30 and still have solid condi removal.

Risks: Adding too much of the “missing” to the power ranger could make it overpowered in my opinion. Keep in mind the class is usually doing damage at 1500 range with a LB (if not being strafed by the enemy.
Adding in condi removal to any trait line not skirmishing or marksmanship will make tanky condi ranger even stronger.

Specific Game Mode
PvE; larger implications

Proposal Overview
Shouts seem like Solutions instead of Choices.

Goal of Proposal
Shouts seem like they’re problem solving the shortcomings of the mechanic as it translates from PvE to PvP. (ex: Human opponents are harder to catch than mob opponents, so people can spec into pet run speed with Sic’ Em. Human opponents don’t obey the rules of aggro, so force something similar with Protect Me.)

This isn’t too exciting because it feels like you’ve spent utility slots (and traits) in order to come back to an even keel instead of gaining an advantage.

Proposal Functionality

What I want out of a pet utility are unique tools and experiences that involve an NPC buddy. Just some ideas of things that sound fun to me:

Search and Rescue: PBAOE centered on Pet instead of Player. Pet gains 3 seconds of Stealth.

Guard/Protect Me: Pet travels to target location, absorbing damage for all allies within the radius of effect. Pet gains Protection for the duration of the effect.

New: Pet quickly dashes towards target location leaving a line AOE. Your or any Ally near the line may press the F-key and gains 2 seconds of evade while leaping to the same location. (Sort of like Zephyrite Light Dash and Mesmer Portal had a weird baby).

New: Gain manual control of pet’s body and pet AI takes over your own. You retain your Utility skills and Elite skill, but trade your Weapon Skills with the Pet’s skills. Any skill or trait that says ‘pet’ applies to the pet in your body, and any that refers to ‘you’ applies to you in the pet’s body.

Associated Risks

• Anything truly unique could be a coding nightmare.
• Going for the fun factor over the function factor, means you need to make sure the function is actually functioning everywhere and not allowing player choices to rectify the mechanic’s shortcomings. So whatever way you’d end up fixing ranger pets, would be one you’d have to be very confident of.
• That last one is probably a balancing nightmare too.

thefantasticg.3984:

DeceiverX.8361:

thefantasticg.3984:

DeceiverX.8361:

Zardul.3952:

i just wanted to add my opinion of the class. i myself have Mained Ranger. " 450 days played 1k+ hours"

Pets are the sole purpose of our issues. i had mentioned before hand about an " aura" for stowed pets ( search my forum history) couple months back.

the problem which i have now come to realise is that if this comes to pass. everyone will Stow there pet.

wouldnt it be better if the pet provided an aura regardless if it was stowed or not, but tone it down accordingly and keep it active through Death of the pet?

for example

Jaguar Aura = the ranger does 5% more damage and every 90seconds applys Stealth for 2 seconds
Dead Jaguar = Ranger does 3% more damage and every 60seconds applys Stealth for 4 seconds

Dead pet= Defensive aura

Alive pet = Offense Aura

I address some of these here, albeit we posted very close to each other :P

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Collaborative-Development-Ranger-Profession/page/35#post3710750

I think what needs to be addressed is not the fact that stowing the pet becomes a better alternative but efforts need to be made to simply make beastmaster builds more potent. Remember, if a ranger drops his pet, he should only be compensated in damage, not utility, which causes the class to lose almost all of its real utility prowess on the field in order to kill something. If beastmasters are made more potent on the battlefield, through the means of the discussed short-term invincibility skill, through better stat modification with the BM line, better synergy with Nature Magic/support roles, etc., then a given ranger will not need to decide so much on picking the more powerful build but simply picking one which they prefer to play. Rangers are often split between either loving pets/liking to play with the pet/summon dynamic, or absolutely hating them and just wanting an archer. Making both equally viable is critical and ultimately why this divide needs to happen; both cannot exist in the same build.

That bolded part is 100% fine by me. And, I’m not in either camp of loving pets or hating them and wanting an archer. I want a petless skermishing melee Ranger.

And I believe it’s something people are mistaking when considering such a change. Having no condi clear aside from heal, no buffs, no CC, no aggro soaking, no extra effects, etc. is extremely inhibitory. Thus, all that is necessary is an increase in damage to compensate for the lost hits/RoA might stacks and the offensive bonuses which Signet of the Beastmaster provides (thus why I suggest it should be replaced with pet stowing and removed from the game as a trait), causing all remaining real utility to be forgone for the sole purpose of dealing damage. It makes both builds equally useful with some added bonuses to the BM line and potentially even more favorable for BM’s as they can revive allies/assist elsewhere while the pet fights and deals damage.

In the end all PVE/Dungeons is about is doing as much damage as you can as fast as you can while actively mitigating any damage by doding/evading. So yeah, none of that utility, unless it provides a straight damage increase, is neccessary. Only for specific situations does one need to bring utility that Rangers have and that is stability. And if you know you’re going to need more condi cleansing you run the signet… And I don’t run Signet of the Beastmaster at all because in my experience the actives on the signets are bad. I usually run QZ, condi romving signet if I need it, frost spirit, muddy terrian, and something else that is of lesser importance. I don’t run any pet aiding utilities because they can’t avoid AOE so they end up dead anyway.

As I stated, if a BM-based ranger is capable of having the pet get such bonuses to remain equal with a non-pet ranger, I don’t see the inherent problem as then the damage values remain approximately the same. Mind you, the pet ranger is also capable of applying more stacks of vulnerability and debuffs to kill the boss faster and soak aggro.

I run signets on my ranger because RoA/Signet of the Wild + QZ and a well-timed Signet of the Hunt maximizes damage potential. And that’s exactly the point I present here: I run no utilities as it stands despite the condi meta in WvW just because that’s the kind of character I want to play. My strategy, even in dungeons, is to not get hit and use heals properly. Why should dedicated BM’s have simply inadequate pets/utility or dedicated archers suffer from ridiculous damage falloff? Simply giving players the option to pick a style is much better than telling them just to play spirit bunker and like it.

runeblade.7514:

Jocksy.3415:

runeblade.7514:

Arghore.8340:

Specific Game Mode
PvX

Proposal Overview
Any amount of healing a pet receives is enough to resurrect it with the amount of health it gained from that healing

Goal of Proposal
The goal of this proposal is a work around for the pet reliability. By having the pet be ressed by any amount of healing means that the ranger can actively res a pet by using various healing skills.

But also, similar to how the pet dies from random AE, it now also benefits from random AE healing.

Proposal Functionality
If a pet receives any healing from any source, and the pet is dead, it is resurrected with the amount of health it would have gained from the healing source would it not have been dead.

Associated Risks
Non that I can think of, the pet will become somewhat more of a reliable source, and the ranger will have the option to resurrect their dead pet by using a healing skill, instead of using a swap. It actually reduces the risk of putting a res on a specific ranger healing skill and ‘bombarding it’ to the ‘must have heal for the ranger’.

sorry for interrupting the shouts discussion, this just popped in my head while going over the ranger skills for specific shout issues/improvements/sollutions, and seeing I think this can work in concurrence with other pet solutions I thought it best to just post it anyways, SHOUTS !!

Risk:

• Signet of the wild will make the pet immortal.
• Pet becomes impossible to kill.
• Doesn’t make the pet reliable. It just make the pet immortal.

But if we just make it to be direct heals, and not regens or passive heals, might be a good idea… (if alive, takes regen, if dead, don’t, needs an active heal, like a burst on water field or an activated master’s heal… not just from Ele’s fields, Gard’s traited dodge or other source)

I just hate when my pet is about to die, I have 3 sec CD on heal, 2 sec on pet swap, I spam F3 for it to get out of there, but Bam! dead, 60 sec CD…

Okay, risk:

• Pet becomes impossible to kill.
• Doesn’t make the pet reliable. It just make the pet immortal.

Point still stand.

Pets have high health and rarely ever focused on so pets shouldn’t die within 3 seconds. With pet swap in a 20 second skill and healing skill on a 20-30 second cooldown. It is still overpowered strong.

Pet’s higher health is only in PvE…
PvP, WvW, it’s low…
spamming f3 does not get it out of that AoE that’ll kill it, or out of the way of an upcoming burst, or whatever… calling it back to try to save it is already a DPS loss…

Second one has to stay alive 60 seconds when first die, thus ranger has to keep it on passive if he want to get back to a 20 sec swap CD.
We have nothing to revive our pets, unless we get out of combat, wait for it’s health to come back up, then go back in the fight.

Lets say a War missing it’kitten with adrenalin would suffer a 30% DPS loss for 60 sec, with no possibility to get it back… would it be fair? or for necros, when they are forced out of DS, instead of willingly getting out, would have a 60 sec DS CD + 30% less DPS… or if revealed would apply 60 sec to thiefs, on a missed hit? or if mesmers couldn’t summon more clones for 60 secs if they die instead of being shattered?

Rangers is the only class (appart from mesmer in large encounters) that have a DPS loss because of their class mecanics… and a pet’s revive on heal skill use would not make a permanently alive pet, it would just allow to rez the pet while in combat in melee heavy fights/fights with lots of AoE, or anything else…

The class mechanic should be reworked so that it’s not working against the rangers in any other setting than PvP… It should be my companion, yet it’s dead most of the time… and there is, most of the time nothing that I can do to save it.
No instant “get out of there” command, no instant “heal yourself” command, no instant “dodge” command… nothing.

Since they stated they are not going to rework the pet mechanic to make pet smarter, that they are not going to rework it to give us better control on it, what is left?

Allow a way to get pet back on it’s feet in the midst of battle…

DeceiverX.8361:

Dave Pare.2069:

misterdevious.6482:

How would the anti-pet people feel about a new pet family that worked more like a Locust Swarm chain skill? I’m writing up a proposal.

• F2 would summon the swarm aura around you to defend you and hit nearby foes.
• Hitting F2 again would send the swarm to deal consistent damage over time to your target.
• Hitting it again would return the swarm to you.
• It could not be targeted, killed, or named, instead it would gradually lose health over time and disappear.

That’s actually a very good idea, very “fresh” if I may say. I would allow the swarm to be hit like any other pet though.

We should think about your proposal misterdevious, extend it and make it more specific but this is a good start indeed!

It’s just so anti-ranger, though. Locusts/Swarms are like the epitome of killing nature. That’s something which honestly belongs on a necromancer.

I don’t see what’s so wrong with simply giving the option to remove pets for bonuses to damage. Obviously those begging to keep their utility skills working without the pet are in the wrong as it would defeat the purpose, but looking at my proposal above, would those who appreciate pets not prefer to be able to explore that option further and also allow others to builds more heavily into a role they wish to play rather than some kind of weird beastmaster/warden/archer failed class hybrid that the ranger class as stated by ANet is?

All right, a locust swarm is anti-nature but I was thinking of swarms in general: bees, fireflies, dragonflies….even mosquitoes could work, the point is not which insect composes the swarm but how to add something that could synergize with the “pet mechanic” but that actually works. Maybe a swarm (with hp like any other pet) sent to attack a target with f1 could envelop it and deal damage every N seconds. The animation of the swarm attack should be recognizable in order to be dodged and this would compensate the problem of the pet uselessly chasing moving targets that he will never be able to hit.

DeceiverX.8361:

As I stated, if a BM-based ranger is capable of having the pet get such bonuses to remain equal with a non-pet ranger, I don’t see the inherent problem as then the damage values remain approximately the same. Mind you, the pet ranger is also capable of applying more stacks of vulnerability and debuffs to kill the boss faster and soak aggro.

I run signets on my ranger because RoA/Signet of the Wild + QZ and a well-timed Signet of the Hunt maximizes damage potential. And that’s exactly the point I present here: I run no utilities as it stands despite the condi meta in WvW just because that’s the kind of character I want to play. My strategy, even in dungeons, is to not get hit and use heals properly. Why should dedicated BM’s have simply inadequate pets/utility or dedicated archers suffer from ridiculous damage falloff? Simply giving players the option to pick a style is much better than telling them just to play spirit bunker and like it.

Pet can only apply those vul and other stacks if it actually lands the hits… which it frequently doesn’t even against other AI mobs (unless I’m tanking for the pet).

I’ll use s+wh with RoA+QZ since I don’t run the Beastmaster signet.

DeceiverX.8361:

It’s just so anti-ranger, though. Locusts/Swarms are like the epitome of killing nature. That’s something which honestly belongs on a necromancer (and they already have Locust Swarm as a skill as well as another Insect-based skill).

1. The Ranger already has an insect theme incorporated in his sword skills.
2. The Ranger already has abilities to summon a flock of birds or a nest of snakes to attack.
3. Insects are pretty natural when removed from any nightmarish creepy-crawly associations.
4. In Everquest Druids had abilities like Stinging Swarm and Drones of Doom. In Magic the Gathering, Black and Green shared the insects, with Green having more options to spawn tons of bonus insect tokens (Living Hive for example).

thefantasticg.3984:

DeceiverX.8361:

As I stated, if a BM-based ranger is capable of having the pet get such bonuses to remain equal with a non-pet ranger, I don’t see the inherent problem as then the damage values remain approximately the same. Mind you, the pet ranger is also capable of applying more stacks of vulnerability and debuffs to kill the boss faster and soak aggro.

I run signets on my ranger because RoA/Signet of the Wild + QZ and a well-timed Signet of the Hunt maximizes damage potential. And that’s exactly the point I present here: I run no utilities as it stands despite the condi meta in WvW just because that’s the kind of character I want to play. My strategy, even in dungeons, is to not get hit and use heals properly. Why should dedicated BM’s have simply inadequate pets/utility or dedicated archers suffer from ridiculous damage falloff? Simply giving players the option to pick a style is much better than telling them just to play spirit bunker and like it.

Pet can only apply those vul and other stacks if it actually lands the hits… which it frequently doesn’t even against other AI mobs (unless I’m tanking for the pet).

I’ll use s+wh with RoA+QZ since I don’t run the Beastmaster signet.

Against non-moving bosses? I don’t recall my pet ever missing one of those.

Against regular mobs, yea it might miss if you don’t play properly, but is a ranger’s pet’s ability to land opening strike imperative in general PvE mobs? It certainly shouldn’t be when debating dungeon viability. A beastmaster should be utilizing F1 for initating an attack before assigning his attack as well in order to maintain aggro on the pet and not himself, so the mob will not move as pets cannot attract aggro by themselves, thus Opening Strike will always hit. This is only not the case in WvW, and even then I’m not denying that pet AI needs a fix or an increased hitbox, but that simply Jon Peters publicly announced AI will never be fixed/reworked due to software/hardware limitations per the server-client model.

I do not see how this makes beastmaster builds any less viable in dungeons, which are really the only necessary aspects of PvE to consider since rangers are outright overpowered in general PvE due to the pets being able to take so much aggro and the mobs not moving around much.

runeblade.7514:

Wrong. Pets have high health in all game format, except when zerging. In PvE, their hp is already buffed immensely.

If you don’t want pets to die, then why not just suggest to remove health pools from pets and make them immortal? It is a way better solution than giving pets reincarnation all the time.

While this may be true, in PvE the foes have also received a considerable buff, there are vets doing 12k+ and elites doing 20k+ damages in one hit. Pretty much one hitting players, not even considering pets…

But by all means keep going at it, as it forces me to improve the idea in response , what about this:

Specific Game Mode
PvX

Proposal Overview
Make the pets ‘defeated’ mode one of ‘constant downed’ instead. Give the pet a downed bar that can be filled up with any type of healing, and that ticks down similar to the player downed bar at the same time. If the pet receives enough healing (from any source) that the downed bar is filled, resurrect it with the amount of health a resurrect would warrant (I think that’s about 35% HP)

Goal of Proposal
To give the ranger other means of reviving their pet, then by swapping (or continued out of combat time). And have the pet benefit from all sorts of AE healing on the battlefield.

Proposal Functionality
already described above.

Associated Risks
waiting for runeblade to cut it to pieces

DeceiverX.8361:

thefantasticg.3984:

DeceiverX.8361:

As I stated, if a BM-based ranger is capable of having the pet get such bonuses to remain equal with a non-pet ranger, I don’t see the inherent problem as then the damage values remain approximately the same. Mind you, the pet ranger is also capable of applying more stacks of vulnerability and debuffs to kill the boss faster and soak aggro.

I run signets on my ranger because RoA/Signet of the Wild + QZ and a well-timed Signet of the Hunt maximizes damage potential. And that’s exactly the point I present here: I run no utilities as it stands despite the condi meta in WvW just because that’s the kind of character I want to play. My strategy, even in dungeons, is to not get hit and use heals properly. Why should dedicated BM’s have simply inadequate pets/utility or dedicated archers suffer from ridiculous damage falloff? Simply giving players the option to pick a style is much better than telling them just to play spirit bunker and like it.

Pet can only apply those vul and other stacks if it actually lands the hits… which it frequently doesn’t even against other AI mobs (unless I’m tanking for the pet).

I’ll use s+wh with RoA+QZ since I don’t run the Beastmaster signet.

Against non-moving bosses? I don’t recall my pet ever missing one of those.

Against regular mobs, yea it might miss if you don’t play properly, but is a ranger’s pet’s ability to land opening strike imperative in general PvE mobs? It certainly shouldn’t be when debating dungeon viability. A beastmaster should be utilizing F1 for initating an attack before assigning his attack as well in order to maintain aggro on the pet and not himself, so the mob will not move as pets cannot attract aggro by themselves, thus Opening Strike will always hit. This is only not the case in WvW, and even then I’m not denying that pet AI needs a fix or an increased hitbox, but that simply Jon Peters publicly announced AI will never be fixed/reworked due to software/hardware limitations per the server-client model.

I do not see how this makes beastmaster builds any less viable in dungeons, which are really the only necessary aspects of PvE to consider since rangers are outright overpowered in general PvE due to the pets being able to take so much aggro and the mobs not moving around much.

I can get a video of a Ranger setting the pet on a target and then pulling the target off the pet by walking near-by (no other actions, no attacks, no skill use) and reproduce the effect numerous times.

Arghore.8340:

runeblade.7514:

Wrong. Pets have high health in all game format, except when zerging. In PvE, their hp is already buffed immensely.

If you don’t want pets to die, then why not just suggest to remove health pools from pets and make them immortal? It is a way better solution than giving pets reincarnation all the time.

While this may be true, in PvE the foes have also received a considerable buff, there are vets doing 12k+ and elites doing 20k+ damages in one hit. Pretty much one hitting players, not even considering pets…

But by all means keep going at it, as it forces me to improve the idea in response , what about this:

Specific Game Mode
PvX

Proposal Overview
Make the pets ‘defeated’ mode on of ‘constant downed’ instead. Give the pet a downed bar that can be filled up with any type of healing, and that ticks down similar to the player downed bar at the same time. If the pet receives enough healing (from any source) that the downed bar is filled, resurrect it with the mount of health a resurrect would warrant (I think that’s about 35% HP)

Goal of Proposal
To give the ranger other means of reviving their pet, then by swapping (or continued out of combat time). And have the pet benefit from all sorts of AE healing on the battlefield.

Proposal Functionality
already described above.

Associated Risks
waiting for runeblade to cut it to pieces

I don’t see any risk in doing this: pet is unreliable most of the times, having the chance to revive him without swapping could at least compensate a bit.

misterdevious.6482:

DeceiverX.8361:

It’s just so anti-ranger, though. Locusts/Swarms are like the epitome of killing nature. That’s something which honestly belongs on a necromancer (and they already have Locust Swarm as a skill as well as another Insect-based skill).

1. The Ranger already has an insect theme incorporated in his sword skills.
2. The Ranger already has abilities to summon a flock of birds or a nest of snakes to attack.
3. Insects are pretty natural when removed from any nightmarish creepy-crawly associations.
4. In Everquest Druids had abilities like Stinging Swarm and Drones of Doom. In Magic the Gathering, Black and Green shared the insects, with Green having more options to spawn tons of bonus insect tokens (Living Hive for example).

Don’t get me wrong, insects are part of nature, I was just stating that locusts and insect swarms aren’t particularly close in theme. Yes, ranger sword #2 (and only 2) has much to do with insects, which is merely a bee sting. I don’t want to get in a heated argument regarding what’s thematically fitting or not based upon the visions of the class, but simply I wouldn’t put a locust swarm on the same level as a skill called Hornet Sting or Serpent Strike or a flock of birds just being a flock of birds.

Regarding MTG, G/B is a color combination associated with undeath, infection, noxious fumes, and plagues. Green also represents all that is nature – and often does so by demonstrating its deadly side via hydras, swarms of insects, fungus, etc., not a synergistic bond between man and nature. That would be much moreso G/W which is done so through lifelink (healing, based upon the proposed Warden class in the making of Gw2), youth and growth with animals through peaceful procreation in nature (populate mechanic) like beastmastery. G/B infect is pushing it far from the norm of nature when you consider most other maindeck infect cards which have more to do with death than life. But I digress. The topic at hand is rangers.

Frankly it has a lot less to do with the aesthetics of not having a pet as much as it does mechanics. A shield’s a cool idea, but it doesn’t help resolve the damage problems and only really benefits the NM/Tank spirit bunker builds we’re finding so potent now.

Strictly speaking, the suggestions asking for pet removal want more damage/more reliable damage, and pretty much nothing else.

Bran.7425:

DeceiverX.8361:

thefantasticg.3984:

DeceiverX.8361:

As I stated, if a BM-based ranger is capable of having the pet get such bonuses to remain equal with a non-pet ranger, I don’t see the inherent problem as then the damage values remain approximately the same. Mind you, the pet ranger is also capable of applying more stacks of vulnerability and debuffs to kill the boss faster and soak aggro.

I run signets on my ranger because RoA/Signet of the Wild + QZ and a well-timed Signet of the Hunt maximizes damage potential. And that’s exactly the point I present here: I run no utilities as it stands despite the condi meta in WvW just because that’s the kind of character I want to play. My strategy, even in dungeons, is to not get hit and use heals properly. Why should dedicated BM’s have simply inadequate pets/utility or dedicated archers suffer from ridiculous damage falloff? Simply giving players the option to pick a style is much better than telling them just to play spirit bunker and like it.

Pet can only apply those vul and other stacks if it actually lands the hits… which it frequently doesn’t even against other AI mobs (unless I’m tanking for the pet).

I’ll use s+wh with RoA+QZ since I don’t run the Beastmaster signet.

Against non-moving bosses? I don’t recall my pet ever missing one of those.

Against regular mobs, yea it might miss if you don’t play properly, but is a ranger’s pet’s ability to land opening strike imperative in general PvE mobs? It certainly shouldn’t be when debating dungeon viability. A beastmaster should be utilizing F1 for initating an attack before assigning his attack as well in order to maintain aggro on the pet and not himself, so the mob will not move as pets cannot attract aggro by themselves, thus Opening Strike will always hit. This is only not the case in WvW, and even then I’m not denying that pet AI needs a fix or an increased hitbox, but that simply Jon Peters publicly announced AI will never be fixed/reworked due to software/hardware limitations per the server-client model.

I do not see how this makes beastmaster builds any less viable in dungeons, which are really the only necessary aspects of PvE to consider since rangers are outright overpowered in general PvE due to the pets being able to take so much aggro and the mobs not moving around much.

I can get a video of a Ranger setting the pet on a target and then pulling the target off the pet by walking near-by (no other actions, no attacks, no skill use) and reproduce the effect numerous times.

That’s exactly what I"m talking about. See it all the time. And if you think I’m going to wait for my pet you got another thing coming. And yes, beastmaster build in a dungeon is not anywhere close to being optimal… Unless the target is stationary and NEVER moves.

Bran.7425:

DeceiverX.8361:

thefantasticg.3984:

DeceiverX.8361:

As I stated, if a BM-based ranger is capable of having the pet get such bonuses to remain equal with a non-pet ranger, I don’t see the inherent problem as then the damage values remain approximately the same. Mind you, the pet ranger is also capable of applying more stacks of vulnerability and debuffs to kill the boss faster and soak aggro.

I run signets on my ranger because RoA/Signet of the Wild + QZ and a well-timed Signet of the Hunt maximizes damage potential. And that’s exactly the point I present here: I run no utilities as it stands despite the condi meta in WvW just because that’s the kind of character I want to play. My strategy, even in dungeons, is to not get hit and use heals properly. Why should dedicated BM’s have simply inadequate pets/utility or dedicated archers suffer from ridiculous damage falloff? Simply giving players the option to pick a style is much better than telling them just to play spirit bunker and like it.

Pet can only apply those vul and other stacks if it actually lands the hits… which it frequently doesn’t even against other AI mobs (unless I’m tanking for the pet).

I’ll use s+wh with RoA+QZ since I don’t run the Beastmaster signet.

Against non-moving bosses? I don’t recall my pet ever missing one of those.

Against regular mobs, yea it might miss if you don’t play properly, but is a ranger’s pet’s ability to land opening strike imperative in general PvE mobs? It certainly shouldn’t be when debating dungeon viability. A beastmaster should be utilizing F1 for initating an attack before assigning his attack as well in order to maintain aggro on the pet and not himself, so the mob will not move as pets cannot attract aggro by themselves, thus Opening Strike will always hit. This is only not the case in WvW, and even then I’m not denying that pet AI needs a fix or an increased hitbox, but that simply Jon Peters publicly announced AI will never be fixed/reworked due to software/hardware limitations per the server-client model.

I do not see how this makes beastmaster builds any less viable in dungeons, which are really the only necessary aspects of PvE to consider since rangers are outright overpowered in general PvE due to the pets being able to take so much aggro and the mobs not moving around much.

I can get a video of a Ranger setting the pet on a target and then pulling the target off the pet by walking near-by (no other actions, no attacks, no skill use) and reproduce the effect numerous times.

Sure thing. I’m pretty sure this phenomenon is can be explained through player action combined with how aggro mechanics work, though.

The behavior is probably part of some anti-botting initiative.

Bran.7425:

DeceiverX.8361:

thefantasticg.3984:

DeceiverX.8361:

As I stated, if a BM-based ranger is capable of having the pet get such bonuses to remain equal with a non-pet ranger, I don’t see the inherent problem as then the damage values remain approximately the same. Mind you, the pet ranger is also capable of applying more stacks of vulnerability and debuffs to kill the boss faster and soak aggro.

I run signets on my ranger because RoA/Signet of the Wild + QZ and a well-timed Signet of the Hunt maximizes damage potential. And that’s exactly the point I present here: I run no utilities as it stands despite the condi meta in WvW just because that’s the kind of character I want to play. My strategy, even in dungeons, is to not get hit and use heals properly. Why should dedicated BM’s have simply inadequate pets/utility or dedicated archers suffer from ridiculous damage falloff? Simply giving players the option to pick a style is much better than telling them just to play spirit bunker and like it.

Pet can only apply those vul and other stacks if it actually lands the hits… which it frequently doesn’t even against other AI mobs (unless I’m tanking for the pet).

I’ll use s+wh with RoA+QZ since I don’t run the Beastmaster signet.

Against non-moving bosses? I don’t recall my pet ever missing one of those.

Against regular mobs, yea it might miss if you don’t play properly, but is a ranger’s pet’s ability to land opening strike imperative in general PvE mobs? It certainly shouldn’t be when debating dungeon viability. A beastmaster should be utilizing F1 for initating an attack before assigning his attack as well in order to maintain aggro on the pet and not himself, so the mob will not move as pets cannot attract aggro by themselves, thus Opening Strike will always hit. This is only not the case in WvW, and even then I’m not denying that pet AI needs a fix or an increased hitbox, but that simply Jon Peters publicly announced AI will never be fixed/reworked due to software/hardware limitations per the server-client model.

I do not see how this makes beastmaster builds any less viable in dungeons, which are really the only necessary aspects of PvE to consider since rangers are outright overpowered in general PvE due to the pets being able to take so much aggro and the mobs not moving around much.

I can get a video of a Ranger setting the pet on a target and then pulling the target off the pet by walking near-by (no other actions, no attacks, no skill use) and reproduce the effect numerous times.

Yeah, you can make your pet hit in dungeons, but you can’t save your pet from dying to AoE’s most times.

Arghore.8340:

runeblade.7514:

Wrong. Pets have high health in all game format, except when zerging. In PvE, their hp is already buffed immensely.

If you don’t want pets to die, then why not just suggest to remove health pools from pets and make them immortal? It is a way better solution than giving pets reincarnation all the time.

While this may be true, in PvE the foes have also received a considerable buff, there are vets doing 12k+ and elites doing 20k+ damages in one hit. Pretty much one hitting players, not even considering pets…

But by all means keep going at it, as it forces me to improve the idea in response , what about this:

Specific Game Mode
PvX

Proposal Overview
Make the pets ‘defeated’ mode one of ‘constant downed’ instead. Give the pet a downed bar that can be filled up with any type of healing, and that ticks down similar to the player downed bar at the same time. If the pet receives enough healing (from any source) that the downed bar is filled, resurrect it with the amount of health a resurrect would warrant (I think that’s about 35% HP)

Goal of Proposal
To give the ranger other means of reviving their pet, then by swapping (or continued out of combat time). And have the pet benefit from all sorts of AE healing on the battlefield.

Proposal Functionality
already described above.

Associated Risks
waiting for runeblade to cut it to pieces

Risk: Rangers can just hide behind a wall while the pet kill the boss.

PET SUMMARY from the top of mind sort of summary pet related solutions
These are all QoL suggestions put forth in this thread to improve the Pet. They are combined here (for as far as I recall them) to give an overview of what has been suggested specifically to improve the pet. Hopefully they give a combined package that Anet can work with, and perhaps even show flaws as to where we missed possible solutions to pet issues.
please let me know if I forgot an important suggestion so that I can add it

Offensive
1. Increase the pet base speed, so they can reach foes faster and keep up with running foes.

2. Give melee pets a bigger ‘hit range’ so they are more likely to hit moving foes.

3. Give certain pets ‘gap closers’ so they can at least hit moving targets, combined with

4. Give pets more movement reducing skills (freeze, cripple, torment, immobilize), so that they are more likely to land hits once they place one of these movement impairing conditions.

Defensive
1. Reduce the amount of damage pets take from AE.

2. Give pets a ‘dodge’ mechanic, where they have an endurance bar that takes a ‘hit’ if the pet is hit with an attack that does more then threshold amount of damage (10% f/e). The pet takes no damage from this attack, but instead takes a ‘hit’ on his endurance bar and dashes towards the ranger.

3. there was another similar to #2 but I seemed to not be able to recall the functional details

4. Make the pet’s defeated state one of constant ‘downed’ instead. The pet gains a downed bar that can be filled by any source of healing, it starts empty and once it has HP in it, it also starts to tick down like the normal downed bar does for players. Once the downed bar is filled entirely with HP, the pet resurrects with the amount of HP corresponding with a resurrection (I think that’s about 35-40% HP).

Ally support
1. The amount of player controlled buffs to allies on pet F2 skills, could be increased. In order to increase the ‘welcomeness’ of the pet class in group oriented gameplay. (f/e. an F2 swiftness on the birds)

I am sure to have forgotten suggested pet solutions, as this thread is huge (and I haven’t even read 100% of it, as I lost where I was when reading foreward and backward and thus I miss pages from the middle), please let me know which so I can add them

i dont know how the ideas for pet health buff in wvw were discussed. how should i in over 30 pages (anywhere summarizing posts?)
but there are many problems.
wvw is not only zerging and big battles. wvw is roaming, taking camps solo, fight other roamer.
should the pet gets +50% hp in general when we enter wvw? or just in zerg fights? when its a zerg fight? over 25 allies? foes? player? in which radius the players should be counted? what when we fought a pve mob the pet got dmg and then we get in a zerg fight? do we see how our pets gets a lot of hp back? what when we fight another roamer – a 1vs1? and the foe cant beat our pets when we are downed? what when we get downed in a big battle? sometimes the groups are too busy fighting and have no time to finish us. we press lick wounds and the pet heals us easily because they have enough health to tank it away? would that buff to the pets balanced? or not? is it worth it? is more health enough? what when we get the 50% buff and the pets die still? do the pets also needs more toughness/armor?

for us this questions could be easy but for anet that changes are a lot of work and maybe all this points let them think…no…or less then 50%

LOL

Risk: Rangers can just hide behind a wall while the pet kill the boss.

They would be there all day though ?

I mean I do see what you are hinting at, the ranger with ‘heal as one’ or ‘troll unguent’ and ‘signet of wild’ together with high healing stats could heal the pet every time it gets downed.

I am not sure if that is truly an issue, in fact, I would argue that that may well be what people would call a ‘full beastmaster’ approach, aka. where the pets do all the DPS work while the beastmaster buffs and heals. Also, like I said, it would take a considerable time to take down a boss with 30% of the damage of a real character. To a point where I would say, that it is pretty much a non issue, if you want to stand there all day, by all means…

If you mean this then has the risk of becoming a ‘botting’ issue, then I were to argue that something like that could be solved fairly easily by giving bosses an extended attention range when only hit by a pet. I should obviously search for the ranger behind it and go after it actively…

Still though, nice one !

urdriel.8496:

runeblade.7514:

Allie Murdock.8152:

The Ranger isn’t expected to do burst damage. By sustained, we mean that the Ranger should excel at surviving (resilient) through burst while still doing enough damage over time to take the opponent down.

If we have to trade burst damage for surviving, can we at least get resilient without the need to trait to be tanky? Every other class can do that but better.

Anet nerfed ranger vigor, nerfed pets, nerfed shortbow, but we must excel at surviving……..

they nerfed our vigor…and the vigor of all other classes. so no reason to qq about it.
they nerfed our shortbow range…a shortbow that shoots so wide as a longbow is not logical. sure it sucks when we had more range at release but shortbow is q good weapon.
they nerfed our pets because they did hard crit dmg (stalker and birds) while we were settler tanks. that was unbalanced and needed to be changed. bm was kittening easy mode. yes oh yes imagine beastmaster… were op and the dmg the pet does were strong..we were strong…with our pets…do anyone gets the irony on this old meta regarding many posts here?

snow.8097:

They nerfed our shortbow range…a shortbow that shoots so wide as a longbow is not logical. sure it sucks when we had more range at release but shortbow is q good weapon.

Momentary Aside: Historically, some of the longest ranged bows in the real world have very short arms – the Mongolian cavalry bow. Likewise crossbows have longer ranges than something huge like a dai-kyu.

Materials used in construction has a LOT more to do with range than the length of the bowstring .

Now back to our fantasy world.

while i wrote my last post i got this idea

pvp

stronger attacks after a not hitting attack

get a slight amount of dmg back when our pet doesnt hitted our target

like here many player metioned our pets have sometimes problems hitting moving targets.
so we have less dmg outpet and cant gett the 100% of dmg a lot ranger talking about.
my idea would be that the pet gets some percent more dmg after every attack they couldnt hit.
for example: our wolf starts autoattacking our foe. the first dont hit and the pet gets a slight dmg buff ( like some stacks of the one bm trait, bloodlust, might, some percent more dmg). that stacks for every attack fail and when they hit one attack the dmg is way more harder but after that hit the buff is gone.

risks…coukd br a lot its just a idea that comes to my mind
not balanced buffs could make pets as strong like in bm times.
hard burst combos
maybe intended attack failings via our control abilities could make one attack of our pets incredible strong hitting attacks
problems with removing/gaining the buff of pets
definition when it is a failing (foe is just moving out of range or dodges)

Nike.2631:

snow.8097:

They nerfed our shortbow range…a shortbow that shoots so wide as a longbow is not logical. sure it sucks when we had more range at release but shortbow is q good weapon.

Momentary Aside: Historically, some of the longest ranged bows in the real world have very short arms – the Mongolian cavalry bow. Likewise crossbows have longer ranges than something huge like a dai-kyu.

Materials used in construction has a LOT more to do with range than the length of the bowstring .

Now back to our fantasy world.

oh really? cool didnt know that
i just thought of the longbows in old england. they were feared.
but in general i think longbows have more range then shortbows
shortbows were really useful for fights on a horse and so very mobile.
while the longbow are very static with long range but hard with hard hitting arrows.
and i think we can see this on ranger

@nike, great immersion killer there, tnx :P

While snow some posts above merely concentrates on Pets in WvW, I would like to dive more into Ranger & WvW. As I have seen very few directly WvW related suggestions so far. Sure various suggestions would also improve the ranger in WvW. But WvW as a focus of discussion and suggestions I haven’t really seen yet. And unfortunately I haven’t played WvW much on my Ranger.

What I wonder f/e is how well do these kind of builds work:
- Long Sword, signet of stone and wild, and some soldiers armour. Trying to roll with the zerg.
or
- longbow, 2 fully traited traps sharpening stone and do AE from the zerg side. Or even muddy terrain in there.
or
- warhorn/torch, healing spring – as zerg support.
- how could spirits be made more viable, do they need a way longer reach so they can be hidden somewhere safe?

These all sound like somewhat viable ways to contribute to WvW, but are they? I mean, the summary above should also somewhat deal with WvW issues as far as the pet goes. But a more integral look at the ranger and WvW may well yield some more improvements or areas of needed attention?

Arghore.8340:

PET SUMMARY from the top of mind sort of summary pet related solutions
These are all QoL suggestions put forth in this thread to improve the Pet. They are combined here (for as far as I recall them) to give an overview of what has been suggested specifically to improve the pet. Hopefully they give a combined package that Anet can work with, and perhaps even show flaws as to where we missed possible solutions to pet issues.
please let me know if I forgot an important suggestion so that I can add it

Offensive
1. Increase the pet base speed, so they can reach foes faster and keep up with running foes.

2. Give melee pets a bigger ‘hit range’ so they are more likely to hit moving foes.

3. Give certain pets ‘gap closers’ so they can at least hit moving targets, combined with

4. Give pets more movement reducing skills (freeze, cripple, torment, immobilize), so that they are more likely to land hits once they place one of these movement impairing conditions.

Defensive
1. Reduce the amount of damage pets take from AE.

2. Give pets a ‘dodge’ mechanic, where they have an endurance bar that takes a ‘hit’ if the pet is hit with an attack that does more then threshold amount of damage (10% f/e). The pet takes no damage from this attack, but instead takes a ‘hit’ on his endurance bar and dashes towards the ranger.

3. there was another similar to #2 but I seemed to not be able to recall the functional details

4. Make the pet’s defeated state one of constant ‘downed’ instead. The pet gains a downed bar that can be filled by any source of healing, it starts empty and once it has HP in it, it also starts to tick down like the normal downed bar does for players. Once the downed bar is filled entirely with HP, the pet resurrects with the amount of HP corresponding with a resurrection (I think that’s about 35-40% HP).

Ally support
1. The amount of player controlled buffs to allies on pet F2 skills, could be increased. In order to increase the ‘welcomeness’ of the pet class in group oriented gameplay. (f/e. an F2 swiftness on the birds)

I am sure to have forgotten suggested pet solutions, as this thread is huge (and I haven’t even read 100% of it, as I lost where I was when reading foreward and backward and thus I miss pages from the middle), please let me know which so I can add them

Other than Defensive 2 and 4. I like this list. Defensive 1 makes defensive 2 and 4 obsolete. Most pets die to AoE damage not to direct damage. Having Defensive 2 and 4 will make pets too immortal.

Offensive 2 should be changed that it attacks in range 80 while the attack range is 130. Otherwise, it wouldn’t solve the problem, it would just make range bigger.

Offensive 1 and 4 will be too strong if combined together. Either perma cripple or perma swiftness. Having both in a passive is just too strong. I prefer perma swiftness because it is less obtrusive to the enemy and less chance to cry over nerfs. There are already pets with offensive 3 so it is obsolete.

If I am reading Ally support 1 right, I think this is genius. Moving pet’s f2 skill for ranger only cast will increase the viability of f2 skills as pets can take 3/4 second to 5 second to cast their f2 skills because of bugs. A ranger casting the pet’s f2 skill will relieve those bugs and make it easier to cast. The downside is that rangers actually have to cast the f2 themselves.

snow.8097:

urdriel.8496:

runeblade.7514:

Allie Murdock.8152:

The Ranger isn’t expected to do burst damage. By sustained, we mean that the Ranger should excel at surviving (resilient) through burst while still doing enough damage over time to take the opponent down.

If we have to trade burst damage for surviving, can we at least get resilient without the need to trait to be tanky? Every other class can do that but better.

Anet nerfed ranger vigor, nerfed pets, nerfed shortbow, but we must excel at surviving……..

they nerfed our vigor…and the vigor of all other classes. so no reason to qq about it.
they nerfed our shortbow range…a shortbow that shoots so wide as a longbow is not logical. sure it sucks when we had more range at release but shortbow is q good weapon.
they nerfed our pets because they did hard crit dmg (stalker and birds) while we were settler tanks. that was unbalanced and needed to be changed. bm was kittening easy mode. yes oh yes imagine beastmaster… were op and the dmg the pet does were strong..we were strong…with our pets…do anyone gets the irony on this old meta regarding many posts here?

Not all vigor/endurance recover (see signet of stamina passive) was adjusted. Not really on topic, but false information gets us no where.

As for the nerf to pet damage that is almost a complete 180 on how the develops describe as one the the strengths of the ranger, being able to build one way and have the pet focused on a different.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8uGM1CGV8g Out of the mouth of Anet.

runeblade.7514:

If I am reading Ally support 1 right, I think this is genius. Moving pet’s f2 skill for ranger only cast will increase the viability of f2 skills as pets can take 3/4 second to 5 second to cast their f2 skills because of bugs. A ranger casting the pet’s f2 skill will relieve those bugs and make it easier to cast. The downside is that rangers actually have to cast the f2 themselves.

I think you are reading it wrong, it merely states that the amount of Ally support skills on pets (including the F2 skills) could be increased (or shift from pet-AI-controlled to F2 controlled).

And while I agree that defensive 1 makes the rest obsolete, the other mechanics seem to be a lot more interesting. In a sense that they are actual mechanics, where no1 is just a flat damage reduction. And I personally do not see the problems with combining #2 and #4 together to make the pet more reliable, and personally think your statement of ‘immortal’ is fairly overstated.

Also don’t agree with your stance on offense #1 and #4 I don’t see any ‘perma cripple’ there? A cripple that actually lands due to #1 could then make it more likely that the rest of the pet attacks hit as well, at least for the time the movement impared condition works. After that it’s mainly a question of when the pet will hit again… (given that I haven’t tried a setup with all pet-speed skills combined to try and make hits more reliable).

As far as offensive 3 goes, I may have misunderstood the details, and perhaps they want the range increased or the reactiveness increased. These I think are mostly requested for Pet vs Human interaction and not Pet vs NPC. It was proposed in as part of the ‘I can hardly land a hit on moving targets’-discussion, so maybe something else was the ‘spear point’ of the suggestion.

bran read the announced changes for the next balance update
they will nerf the rest of the vigor of other classes

I think the whole argument about “pets dying to AOE damage” is moot. If the Rangers pet dies to an AOE, it’s because its supposed too.

What I mean is, whenever I’m in a dungeon fighting a boss, and lets say I’m standing back using a LB/SB and my pets is up in it’s face, the boss lets out an AOE, now, my pet is at 20% life…..well so are the other 4 characters in my group…they also have 20% life, the difference is that most rangers don’t pet swap or call back there pet so it can heal, which is what the other 4 party members would do if they got hit hard during a boss fight. So it really comes down to micro/pet management. I hardly have problems with my pets, and I often run birds as well which have low armor and semi low health. Now, I wouldn’t disagree with adding more HP and armor to them in PvE and WvW.

Now, lets say that an enemy zerg is coming your way and your pet gets run over, of course your pet is going to die, as any other class would too.