Guild Wars 2

Since the devs did a pretty good job in avoiding this thread, I just want to remind you all that this thread is probably going to get closed on monday.

I don’t think we need more condition removal on healing skills, it should be on a specific weapon skill or an active trait on a category of utility skills (traps for exemple).

arkealia.2713:

I don’t think we need more condition removal on healing skills, it should be on a specific weapon skill or an active trait on a category of utility skills (traps for exemple).

Ranger need a heal with condition removal.

Yoh.8469:

Proposal Overview
Change pet’s from being Always On to Summons.
This means having individual durations, cast time and cooldown.

SNIP all sorts of stuff i agree with…

I wondered if to this could be added a strictly visual pet, to signify that the character is a Ranger. This pet would be solely a visual identifier, it wouldn’t draw agro trick anything, or do anything but ‘be there’. It would actually de-spawn if the ranger were to get drawn into a fight or hit, to make room for the summoned pets. It would, by all means, be nothing more than ‘a pet’. A ranger could also set a visual cue pet that works best with the theme (s)he wan’t to go with, or the RP idea (s)he has for the Ranger. But (s)he wouldn’t have to use this specific pet in combat, if it were not suited for the desired play style.

Something along the lines off:

[F1][F2][F3][F4][A/P*][Visual Pet selection]

- F1-4 would have 4 pets assigned to it.
- A/P would be a toggle for Aggressive/Passive (heel)
- And the current pet picture would give the option to select a pet as a visual cue.

If there would be merely visual cue pets, ANet could design a whole lot of pets (or even assign in-game creatures, not necessarily being pets that can be used in the pet system) that could visually represent pets to the ranger class. While at first this might seem confusing, I am fairly sure it’s easily picked up by everyone.

Another thing that just struck me in regards to doing a ‘summon’ instead of a ‘always there pet’, is that the ranger gains a bit more vertical progression through this system. The Ranger obviously starts out with one pet, which is set to both the visual cue as well as the F1 key. As the ranger ‘charms’ more pets, he gets to fill up the whole F1-4 bar with them, and after that actually start to pick and choose.

urdriel.8496:

arkealia.2713:

I don’t think we need more condition removal on healing skills, it should be on a specific weapon skill or an active trait on a category of utility skills (traps for exemple).

Ranger need a heal with condition removal.

You have Healing Spring already

arkealia.2713:

urdriel.8496:

arkealia.2713:

I don’t think we need more condition removal on healing skills, it should be on a specific weapon skill or an active trait on a category of utility skills (traps for exemple).

Ranger need a heal with condition removal.

You have Healing Spring already

To have all the benefits of healing spring you need to stay in the spot for 10 secs :P, we need a instant on demand heal cond. remove, like Warriors mending, we have “heal as one” as candidate.

Note: To Allie and friends, for the complete lists of all of my Ranger traits rework/revisions please look at my older posts for reference.

Game Mode: PVE

Overview: Nature Magic traits rework to showcase Ranger’s relationship with Nature.

Goal: My goal with these changes is to fit Anet’s vision of a Ranger in game and to provide a clear understanding of the Ranger’s relationship with Nature and Spirits through its trait lines and to promote Ranger as a team player with these traits. Trait ideas are Dervish inspired.

Risks: New Master trait: Healing Wind might be too OP in WvW, especially if it scales with Healing Power.

Nature Magic

Trait Rework

Adept: Rejuvenation – gain regeneration when your health drops below threshold.
New Master: Healing Wind – heals nearby allies for 60 in a 300 radius whenever a boon on you ends.
Grandmaster: Bountiful Hunter – you and your pet deals more damage while you have a boon.

Adept: I. Circle of Life – Creates a healing spring when you’re downed.

New Adept: II. Ebon Cloak – You and your Pet gain extra 1% armor for each condition on you.

New Adept: III. Nature’s Renewal – Increase boon duration of nearby allies by 10% in a 300 radius for 3 seconds, interval 9 seconds.

Adept: IV. Vigorous Spirit – Spirits have increased health and a greater chance to trigger their benefits.

Adept: V. Strength of Spirit – Gain power based on your vitality.

Adept: VI. Nature’s Protection – Receive protection when you take damage greater than a percentage of your maximum health.

Master: VII. Spirits Unbound – Spirits can move and follow you.

Master: VIII. Evasive Purity – Dodging removes 1 condition from you and your pet.

Master: IX. Two-Handed Training – Greatsword and spear damage is increased. Greatsword and spear attacks have a chance to grant fury on hit.

Master: X. Enlargement – Use Signet of the Wild when your health drops below certain threshold.

Grandmaster: XI. Nature’s Vengeance – Activated skills of spirits are larger and trigger when the spirit is killed.

Grandmaster: XII. Nature’s Voice – Shouts apply boons to allies.

(Should consider changing to provide build diversity in team game plays for each Shouts instead of applying the same boons for each)

Fortifying Bond IMO should just be a given trait for this Class.

Specific Game Mode
PvX

Proposal Overview
improvement of sword skill 2

Goal of Proposal
better utility of sword skill 2

Proposal Functionality
Please consider modifying sword skill 2:
The Hornet sting is active only when there is a target at a melee distance, and in this case it is followed by Monarchs leap (nothing changed).
But if the targeted mob is not at melee range, the main hand sword skill 2 triggers Monarch leap instead, and ranger jumps to his target.

So the skill 2 works both as an attack skill and an escape skill, depending on circumstances.

urdriel.8496:

arkealia.2713:

urdriel.8496:

arkealia.2713:

I don’t think we need more condition removal on healing skills, it should be on a specific weapon skill or an active trait on a category of utility skills (traps for exemple).

Ranger need a heal with condition removal.

You have Healing Spring already

To have all the benefits of healing spring you need to stay in the spot for 10 secs :P, we need a instant on demand heal cond. remove, like Warriors mending, we have “heal as one” as candidate.

While it looks good on paper, the amount of condition removal we have compared to other professions, but, in practice….we really don’t have that much.

We have…..

Healing Spring – which requires you to be standing in a tiny area in order to remove up to 6 conditions.
Signet of Renewal – which requires your pet to be alive and close enough to you to remove all conditions.
Empathic Bond – which requires your pet to be alive to remove 3 conditions.
Renewal – From Spirit of Nature which seems okay at first (it is quite powerful), except for how quickly the spirit dies, and then there is the very long cooldown to consider after it dies, etc.
Shake it Off – Which requires you to be close enough to it to remove 3 conditions.
Evasive Purity – Which only removes Poison and Blind, on a 10 second cooldown. (Which is pointless, because it is easier to just attack to remove the blind!)

Please tell me if I missed anything for Ranger Condition Remocal. 3 of them are tied to and depend on our pet being alive, and 1 to a spirit that dies way too easily. 1 of them only removes 2 specific conditions, and the last 1 requires you to stand in a tiny area and not move much at all, completely counter to how you are supposed to be playing this game.

Also, Mending heals for 1,300 less than Heal as One, but Removes 3 conditions. The Cooldown is the same. I would say that based on that,…Mending is a better heal skill.

Specific Game Mode
PvX

Proposal Overview
New Marksmanship master/grandmaster level minor trait (Synchronous or Harmonius Strike maybe?) with the effect: “When you strike an enemy, copy a random boon from your pet to yourself. Cooldown: X (2-3 suggested) seconds.”
Merge Alpha Training with Opening Strike and move Precise Strike down to master if necessary.

Goal of Proposal
In situations where the ranger is using a ranged weapon, they will frequently not receive buffs provided by party members or other allies located closer to the enemy. This would allow a ranger using ranged weapons to benefit somewhat from boons applied to their pet by group members that are closer to the enemy. It would also allow solo rangers to reliably receive boons that the pet applies to itself, if the ranger is out of the short AoE range.

Proposal Functionality
It would function similar to Fortifying Bond by applying boons of fixed duration to the ranger, to prevent it from being wasted by copying boons that have a fraction of a second remaining. It would only function in combat, and only when an enemy is hit.

Associated Risks
Rangers in melee or boon range could receive an extra boon every few seconds, but only if the same boon is granted to both the ranger and pet. If the ranger receives a boon this way, it should NOT be granted to the pet via Fortifying Bond, as that could cause an endless boon duplication cycle. Replacing “your pet” with “the ally nearest your target” could be interesting, but is very ambiguous and might cause boon duplication issues. Long duration boons applied to the pet would have the chance to be copied to the ranger multiple times, which could also be problematic, and might necessitate a longer internal cooldown. If the granted boons had the same duration as the ones granted by Fortifying Bond, an ICD of 3 seconds might prevent most undesirable overstacking.

Just a couple of things I don’t think I’ve seen.

Firstly, I want to be able to see what conditions and buffs my pet has without having to target it. Same as the player, just some added UI so it’s easy to tell when my pet has a lengthy cripple and I can make the choice to swap it out so I can actually be hitting the enemy (among other reasons).

Secondly, the pet is AI, anywhere else in the game when AI faces a large number of enemies it is scaled up, do this for the pet (don’t make them hit any harder, just boost survivability) and zerg warfare is no longer a problem in wvw for rangers.

(This post is a response of Allie’s summary on page 42)

I agree with some things summarized: pets and weapons related suggestions above all. Otherwise some other suggestions are terrible ideas (in my opinion) and I hope devs wouldn’t really consider to implement them in the game.

Allie Murdock.8152:

PvX
General:

1. Remove spirits. They clutter up the map and provide less strategic value with target changes.

I don’t see why you should remove entirely spirits, they have a reason to exist in some situations.

1. Instead, apply an aura to the pet that does the same thing spirits currently do.

The pet needs to work proprely before doing so, having a super-buffing pet that dies in 2 sec in Aoe’s or against bosses is completely useless.

1. Ranger heals should match their purpose more.
   1. Reduce cooldown of Troll Unguent/add condi removal
   2. Increase radius of Healing Spring & increase cast time
   3. Reduce cooldown of Heal as one or reduce cast time.

I wouldn’t be happy with this changes: Troll Unguent with a condi removal will become to strong compared to the other healing skills; Healing Spring with an increased cast time would make it too difficoult to use while the increasing radious is useless; Heal as one with a reduced CD or cast time will be as terrible as now, this is the skill begging for remove condi.

Beastmastery & Pets:

1. New trait: Master: Cleansing Swap: When you swap pets, you lose 2 conditions (ICD of 10 seconds).

The purpose in having a 10 sec CD? swapping pets already has a 20 sec CD (if the pet swapped is alive, otherwise is 40 sec CD). And on Master tier!?!?!?!? Let’s make it a 3 conditions removed on pet swap. I should mention the Beastmastery minor trait Loud Whistle (15 points to get it) : reduces recharge on pet swap by 20%: I still think 3 condi removed would be fair, not less, even on a 16 sec CD with “Loud Whistle” traited.

1. New trait: Grand Master: Camaraderie: When you swap pets, the inactive pet gains the same boons as the active pet (boon values are capped).

This would just be a terrible waste of trait points. I would avoid it even on minor adept tier.

Wilderness:

1. Wilderness experts should be the masters of poisons. Therefore, Rangers should have the most potent poisons available.
   1. Rangers should be given some trait options to improve poison in various ways (extended duration, improved healing suppression, higher damage values, bonuses against poisoned foes, etc.).

In order to do this Ranger should also gain the access to poison much more often than with 3 skills: one with SB, one with Sword and one with Dagger. Something like gaining a chance to poison foes on crit. (a new “poison” trait could integrate this).

Nature Magic:

1. VIII. Evasive Purity – Dodging removes 1 conditions from you and your pet. (10s cooldown)

CD is too high on this, 5 sec CD is the max in my opinion. I would not bohter considering taking a Master trait like this otherwise. This works like evasive arcana from ele….only it is weaker. This is not a surprise with Ranger: can fulfill lots of roles, just weaker then anyone else.

1. Tail Wind – Provides +20% movement speed while in combat.

Ranger already has opions to gain swiftness in combat, it lacks access to this boon out of combat, especially in WvW and PvP if you don’t use a warhorn or you don’t want to waste your 120 sec. CD “Rampage as One” only to move a bit quicker.

World vs World (WvW)

Rangers need improvements in order to contribute more to competitive World vs World combat.

Goal of Proposal
To improve under performing weapon skills, pet utility and survivability.

Proposal Functionality

• Ranger #5(Barrage) longbow skill has a CD and cast time that is too long for the utility and damage it affords. My casual observation is that it hits players on average for 300-500 damage. Warriors and guardians quickly remove cripple and thieves easily stealth it out.
  Change: reduce cast time to 3/4 second from 2 3/4 seconds, reduce CD from 30 to 15 seconds. Talented that makes it ~12 seconds.
  Alternative change: applies revealed rebuff and breaks stealth, improve area of casting from 360 to 400. Cast time and CD unchanged.

• Hunter’s shot (longbow): This skill is supposed to function as an alternative to the evade the short bow has. In practice this shot misses a lot because of LOS, blind or dodges. A little hill there, a bush, whatever — it misses. A lot.
  
  Change: only damage and combo effect should be cancelled on a miss. Stealth should activate regardless. It never really made sense that hitting a target should hide you, you hide because of your superior ranger camouflage skills.

• Axe primary attack damage is underwhelming at 313 exotic level
  Axe (mainland) change: I’d boost the damage a little bit. Maybe 390 or 400 outright.

Pet improvements in WvW
Can your pet bar get bugged just like your skills bar? This continues to be really annoying. Commanding your pet to attack and watching him stand still in response is not fun.

Pets are just ineffective in large scale combat. I just use them as condition sponges because they die instantly doing anything else. They factor absolutely for almost nothing in damage or crowd controls. Only my dog’s knockdown is moderately useful. But since I can’t control when he does it, he uses it on people with stability most of the time. The rest of the time the target is 1200 yards away from my pet when he finishes casting his utility.

Change: remove health reduction on pets in WvW. 14k HP on my dog means superior ballistas one-shot him.

Change: change cast time on pet utility skill to 1/4 from 1 1/2 in WvW.

Change: significantly improve damage reduction on pets that are receiving greater than three damage sources.

Arghore.8340:

…or add spirits to pets (which I personally don’t like at all, but that’s some other discussion)…

Please, elaborate. The potential change to spirits is the topic I’m most interested in at this point.

Allie Murdock.8152:

I’m not saying this isn’t possible, but I want you to understand exactly what that suggestion means. It would mean completely rebalancing the Ranger.

The Ranger is designed to have a pet. If the pet was taken away or didn’t do damage, then it wouldn’t be a Ranger anymore. Does that make sense?

The only reason Rangers lose damage is because the AI is not currently what it ought to be. That doesn’t necessarily mean that we should completely redesign the Ranger and get rid of the pet.

Think of it this way: You’re building a house and a 2×4 breaks while you’re trying to screw it in to something. Do you scrap the house and completely rebuild it because that one piece broke, or do you grab a new 2×4 and use that instead? Which do you think would be more efficient?

What I’ve been seeing a lot of is that you guys don’t necessarily dislike pets. What you dislike is how they act and how they are controlled. It seems to me that these are feelings that have been built up over time, and have culminated into “pets have to go” because you guys haven’t seen the improvements that should be made to pets to make them desirable. I certainly don’t blame you for getting to this point, but I do want to know the core of the problem before we start talking about rebalancing an entire class.

I’m going to have to disagree with a lot of what what said here, unfortunately. I’m not trying to be be rude here, but I’m going to simply be blunt.

First and foremost, the ranger is currently in a position where the class is disputed due to its awkward foundation. Frankly, anything but a rework or massive overhauls isn’t going to actually resolve these problems long-term. Low-hanging fruit fixes are nice, but the bottom line is that GW2 has been released for over a year and a half and the developers have done nothing except address low-hanging fruit fixes. Many MMO’s do not even make it this far into the industry simply due to the lack of publicity/development funding. This is a triple-A game with tons of awards. Those who made this game are skilled employees and should be putting forth their effort to fix the MAJOR problems plaguing the game, such as the ranger dynamic, rather than still insisting on low-hanging-fruit fixes. Polish is something you do after you’ve made everyone happy with core systems. A majority of players are unsatisfied with the core systems in place. These need re-designs, which albeit require a lot of initial work, require less maintenance in the long run. Making the move from sterling silver silverware to stainless steel might cost you an investment, but ultimately you’re going to save a ton of time and money down the road when not needing to buff it and buy chemicals for treatment. This is what the CDI should be about and why the demand for fixing ranger is so immense. Regarding your house example, the problems don’t lay on the scale of a broken 2×4. Currently your 2×4 is breaking not from poor attachment methods but because your entire house is perched upon it. Do you just keep placing new 2×4′s until you find the perfect near-indestructible plank due to its grain/wood type just to make the house stay still, or do you address your design flaws and make the smarter decision to go back to the drawing board so that further additions are guaranteed to be successful?

(My post is too long and will be continued immediately).

Sure, the ranger is designed to have a pet. That doesn’t mean it should be a constant requirement. Having so many utility skills and traits tied to the pet makes the class unique. Whether or not players wish to really explore this option for damage augmentation should be on them. Just like Warrior’s Adrenaline and Thief’s Steal mechanics, those can be built around, are always available, but are not REQUIRED. A 30% damage penalty at the cost of something players may not wish to build around is simply too strict, and honestly, is just bad design. This is especially because there are no alternatives to an archer. Longbow warrior/shortbow thief are simply inadequate archers from many perspectives and this leads into another fallacy.

A massive source of complaints revolves around the fact that there exists no viable archer role in the game, and has nothing to do with the pet dependency. Simply, the pet is a style of play and a flavor addition, just as is being a heavy warrior with a big weapon, a nimble assassin, a mage, or in this case an ARCHER. Yes, the issues with pets can be resolved by potential updating, but it doesn’t solve the inherent design flaw which forces a style of play upon players while denying them another. Pets being optional resolves both conflicts, especially if they are buffed such that beastmasters and pet users/pets in general retain their usefulness/utility while blatantly denying dedicated archer/DPS roles. The reason why pet removal has so much support is a combination of the notions that rangers in general want more viability/consistency, and players wanting to play a dedicated archer (or light/medium armor skirmisher in fewer cases).

I hope this helps explain the origins behind why so many players want the option to remove the pet. Simply, the alternative play styles need to be considered somewhere in the game, and that either means reworking thief to allow for a longbow/new weapon implementation while also reworking ranger to fix pets, or simply re-working the ranger class (which is obviously less work than both classes) to make literally everyone happy and resolve all of the current class problems.

Thanks for your dedication and I hope you take this post more seriously when trying to evaluate the credibility of the insight regarding pet removal/stowing.

urdriel.8496:

arkealia.2713:

I don’t think we need more condition removal on healing skills, it should be on a specific weapon skill or an active trait on a category of utility skills (traps for exemple).

Ranger need a heal with condition removal.

Signet of Renewal is enough for me, usually. Either that or I die too fast for removal to really mean anything anyway.

Chrispy.5641:

While it looks good on paper, the amount of condition removal we have compared to other professions, but, in practice….we really don’t have that much.

We have…..

Healing Spring – which requires you to be standing in a tiny area in order to remove up to 6 conditions.

Not as big an issue if you’re not expected to be moving very far. Such as combat at range.

Signet of Renewal – which requires your pet to be alive and close enough to you to remove all conditions.

Passive is usually good enough for me, and I usually swap pets if I need to activate it for conditions to be shoveled off to a pet. Any conditions which would be dangerous to keep for the 10 second timer would be powerful enough I wouldn’t have a chance anyway otherwise.

Empathic Bond – which requires your pet to be alive to remove 3 conditions.
Renewal – From Spirit of Nature which seems okay at first (it is quite powerful), except for how quickly the spirit dies, and then there is the very long cooldown to consider after it dies, etc.

Haven’t worked with these; Empathic Bond seems less useful to me, and I shy away from Spirits for anything except PvE and even then I tend to leave them aside due to the fragility.

Shake it Off – Which requires you to be close enough to it to remove 3 conditions.

We can do better than the bear, even within our limited pool of pet options.

Evasive Purity – Which only removes Poison and Blind, on a 10 second cooldown. (Which is pointless, because it is easier to just attack to remove the blind!)

Easier to have Signet of Renewal passive.

Please tell me if I missed anything for Ranger Condition Remocal. 3 of them are tied to and depend on our pet being alive, and 1 to a spirit that dies way too easily. 1 of them only removes 2 specific conditions, and the last 1 requires you to stand in a tiny area and not move much at all, completely counter to how you are supposed to be playing this game.

The passive of Signet of Renewal drops a condition every 10 seconds. Most conditions don’t last long enough to tick off, and those which do are good to see drop off (poison, cripple…)

Some of us like having powerful pets…

• Using Mad King Runes + Rampage as One to give our pets 25 stacks of might with a single keystroke. Fun.
• Using Fortifying Bond to funnel boons from our many allies onto our pets, as well as boons from Sigil of Luck, Sigil of Strength, Ghost Pepper Poppers, or Burning Aura.
• Using Bark Skin, Carnivorous Appetite, or Natural Healing to give the pet some extra needed survivability.
• Using Zealot or Magi gear that has more than one stat to improve the pet.

And I imagine that the rune and sigil revamp may open a few new possibilities… and future gear releases can have similar effect… and some content may contain new pets as well like the reef drake. Our profession mechanic is not only highly varied, but it is also expanding. It is disheartening to see people say “scrap it, give us 30% damage back.”

If the pet gets substantially improved, it will will probably make beastmasters OP in spvp… which will get beastmasters nerfed… and hurt us in WvW where we need the help. Try to avoid that.

Substance E.4852:

phys.7689:

Except there is no “duo team” with the pet. We have absolutely no advantage that other classes don’t by our use of a pet and allocation of our damage onto it. We used to atleast be able to spread our damage out but then they nerfed the kitten out of our leash range so that is no more. The very fact that we have to melee to get maximum dps makes the pet even more pointless. What advantage is there to have a pet and ranger working at 70/30 in melee, so close that they are clipping into one another, over simply having a single player with 100% of the damage attacking the same target? There isn’t one, certainly not when the pet can’t dodge red rings of death nor function in WvW zergs at all. I don’t even target people with the pet and it still gets instagibed by aoe spam.

As long as we only equal 100% when working with the pet and it can’t body block enemies like pets can in other games, the pet is absolutely superfluous. A good player will always perform better than one of equal skill that has to share a portion of their damage with an unreliable AI.

We’ve had 1.5 years to roleplay Dar the Beastmaster and it has been a headache for anyone that cares about efficiency and respect in pve/wvw. We just want a class that isn’t a joke and works correctly. Flavor ALWAYS takes a backseat to functionality.

its not flavor, its actually the core of the archetype, what you are asking for is for the current ranger to die, and be replaced by another class. Why not just ask for the other archetype? then people can have both.

As far as the rng/pet duo, it can be improved, but theres actually a decent amount of it already.
If they make f2 responsive
have less pet animations root the pet
fix the order of command so they dont constantly self interupt
give some better retreat control

ranger/pets will be pretty beastly. probably get nerfed, but thats another story

Expect you missed my entire point. Those suggestions improve the pet but DO NOT lend it, or us, capabilities that other classes do not have nor does it make us better than a ranger with 100% damage and F#’s that emulate current pet skills or a pet that is a mobile boon/cc dispenser.

That is what is wrong with pets at their core. They don’t give us anything that makes the ranger better than another class. Even the things that make us desirable to have in pve are ranger skills and traits. Frost spirit and Spotter have nothing to do with the pet. The red moa is the only one even worth considering for team support.

Pets need a fundamental rework. They need to be a tool that lets us do something that others can not. They need to be a functional reason to roll ranger, not just an aesthetic one.

And yes, I am asking for the current ranger to die. It has had it’s fun but now its getting old and crapping on the carpet. It’s time to put it down and get a new ranger, one that works and makes other classes wish they could do what only we can.

So, from what I gather, the Ranger takes a 30% penalty to damage potential because of the pet. Yet, the pet is mostly controlled by an AI instrumented software routine that can’t match the flexibility, reactiveness or ability to predict certain maneuvers the way a human can. So the damage potential of the pet is not really what it could be because you have a relative idiot controlling the pet.

In the case of the Mesmer, the illusions generated have a simple AI and one purpose. They are summoned and do only one thing. Then they expire or die from damage. The pet, since it has to be always active has a bit more complicated AI…maybe. But even if the AI was much better, which I think is not going to happen because of the overhead it would incur, the pet as it is now still sucks up too much damage potential from the Ranger and doesn’t contribute anywhere near that portion that is sacrificed to ‘balance’ the damage potential compared to the other classes.

Then, if we are to keep the pet, as we were politely told is a ‘must’ by someone….then what to do? It has to contribute in all settings. We could make it more like the Mesmer with a Pet-in-a-box that does one thing and dies, and then we call the next. That doesn’t sound like the vision Anet has for the Ranger. They want a character that runs around with a buddy (a pet) that works as a team. That’s the vision. BTW, I sorta like the idea of a pet-in-a-box. LOL

But, if that’s the constraint, how do we make the pet contribute their 30%?

Humm, first we have to actually have a pet that’s alive and running around. A dead pet is like taking all the illusions from a Mesmer and pushing her out the door into a hungry crowd and yelling…”DINNER!!!!” So, make em smarter, or tankier, or stealthier…or whatever. Make em so they can live more than 3 seconds. That’s number one.

The second ‘must have’ is damage potential through either actual damage or potential damage through conditions. The pet has to reliably do one or the other or both in whatever combination or configuration that is particular to that pet.

Finally, you must have control of the pet. It can’t be off running around like some wild 2 year old with a gun. It’ll shoot someone’s eye out; probably the very big and hairy bad guy you don’t want irritated. Control is important to game play. Control is crucial the good game play. Control is critical to excellent game play. AI isn’t control.

As a parting comment about damage potential. Consider damage potential in light of how long that instrument is around. The pet is around all the time when I’m roaming around not trying to fight off a thief looking for an easy kill…but where’s that damage potential when the pet dies in 3 to 5 seconds and I have to wait a minute to get it back. Let’s see…stupid math 101. Three to five seconds divided by 60 seconds times thirty percent…voila! The actual contribution from my pet during a battle is a huge 1.5% to 2.5%. I know swapping times are less, but you get the idea.

Anyway. My eight farthings…

“X. Eagle Eye – Include shortbow. Provides 200 range and +5% damage on longbow and harpoon gun. (no range bonus for shortbow)”

Is it a typo that " Provides 200 range" thing? Because now it is +300 range.

Eypheha.5831:

(Post content trimmed for character limit preservation)

You’re fairly correct in the current player perspective, but simply improving stats can only go so far. The pet, being dumb, is only going to deal damage to/actually have an effect on gameplay only when the target is just as dumb. This is a major problem for PvP/WvW, and of course it can only deal such damage when it is alive.

Now, if you make the pet’s stats too high, then it becomes indestructible/nigh unkillable. Now you can just send it to attack someone from far away and laugh as they struggle to deal with an aggressor. Even skilled players will need to consciously avoid such a monster.

And of course, that does nothing to improve gameplay but make rangers even more passive and simply, less fun.

More control is cool, but at what cost? Should a ranger be forced into controlling two players at once just to reach the same damage levels other classes have while having fewer tools to do so? That seems like a lot of skill/work for literally no gain.

As it stands, damage cannot be calculated on the assumption you survive for that full minute (forty seconds). We’re playing a game where bursting is how one wins. Not only does the sustained damage model not work, but without a pet (when it’s even dead) the ranger loses most if its good utilities and trait effectiveness. Simply put, you’re going to lose the fight unless you build bunker.

The ranger should retain its 100% damage, and the pet should get increases based upon whether or not the ranger delves into beastmastery. A ranger trying to maximize “potential raw damage throughput as represented by a percentage opposed to the norm” (AKA trying to build over 100% normal damage) will put 30 in Marksmanship and 30 in BM. Problem is, power isn’t really effective without precision, so compared to a power/precision ranger, the net damage equivalent will remain the same. Bottom line is that the pet just becomes more potent/durable and thus his utilities more reliable.

Of course, this requires BM trait reworks/buffs to make it worthwhile. That’s the big kerfuffle. There’s no way to make a pet actually functional without overhauling the BM/Nature Magic/Survival lines to really increase pet and ranger durability and pet damage to compensate. Thus, at that point, why not just implement aspects or make the pet totally optional if the ranger decides to build solo-style and the pet just becomes a visual liability/extra target for bounce effects/idle animations which may give away player position/add extra size to the player object?

The sad reality is that there’s no real way to fix the class without making the pet optional and just really delving into the latter 3 trait lines to make the concept of the beastmaster truly viable via extensive buffs/grandmaster trait synergy.

afoot.6932:

Arghore.8340:

…or add spirits to pets (which I personally don’t like at all, but that’s some other discussion)…

Please, elaborate. The potential change to spirits is the topic I’m most interested in at this point.

What the Dev had written::

PvX
General:

1. Remove spirits. They clutter up the map and provide less strategic value with target changes.
   1. Instead, apply an aura to the pet that does the same thing spirits currently do.
      1. Obviously, this would be a huge rework and would require changes to spirit traits.

I personally don’t see how that could be balanced at all.

Chrispy.5641:

afoot.6932:

Arghore.8340:

…or add spirits to pets (which I personally don’t like at all, but that’s some other discussion)…

Please, elaborate. The potential change to spirits is the topic I’m most interested in at this point.

What the Dev had written::

PvX
General:

1. Remove spirits. They clutter up the map and provide less strategic value with target changes.
   1. Instead, apply an aura to the pet that does the same thing spirits currently do.
      1. Obviously, this would be a huge rework and would require changes to spirit traits.

I personally don’t see how that could be balanced at all.

In all likelihood it means we give up the spirit active or we are limited to 1 spirit at a time per pet.

Something that would make us much better for pve/wvw zergs but would probably be very bad for spvp. A split would be best but I’m assuming they are looking for any reason to gut spirit bunkers at this point anyway.

So far the best design I can imagine is:
Pet control F1-F4/5 skills used to be a selectable Shout to the pet, so they do the shout skills available now. Attack, Defend (ally), Condition target, search & rescue, etc.

I don’t see the point why should we waste skillbar slots on pet-control skills…
They really needs to be integrated to the pet controls itself!

arkealia.2713:

urdriel.8496:

arkealia.2713:

I don’t think we need more condition removal on healing skills, it should be on a specific weapon skill or an active trait on a category of utility skills (traps for exemple).

Ranger need a heal with condition removal.

You have Healing Spring already

I was the one who mentioned TU giving condition removal that made it into the summary post: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Collaborative-Development-Ranger-Profession/page/22#post3694581

Rangers do need condition removal on a skill the can be mobile with that doesnt take all day or require you to stand in one spot.

As of right now we have no active condition removal and a heal would be a great place to sneak one in.

And @ the people saying standing in one spot is no big deal, it is in wvw/spvp where doing so could get you killed, especially with all the insane aoe.

Heal Spring can be still used as group heal/support

Heal as one should revive your pet.

Suddenly all the heals is a good option depending on what you are trying to do.

Well all the heals besides Water Spirit, which has barely gotten a passing mention in this thread at all. Why hasnt anyone brainstormed a better version of that skill.

Also Why cant there just be one spirit instead of stacking everything on the pet that dies in 2 seconds.

All you need is one spirit avatar in game. You can channel each spirit skill (aura) through that one avatar and each spirit skill(aura) you activate gives the avatar increased health, so someone cant just burst down the avatar and leave you with nothing. You would have to balance the health but there wouldnt be any body blocking or clutter.

Allie Murdock.8152:

1. Longbow: Reward max range and synergize with pet.
   1. Vulnerability instead of damage increase with range (s1), cripple (s2), immobilize (s3), knockdown (s5)
   2. Pet might (s3), swiftness (s2), regen (s5)
2. Shortbow: Condition Damage
   1. Burning (s3), Torment (s4), s3 should be s5 w/ leapback + confusion

But this does not make much sense, really.

If longbow is a long range weapon, it should be more about damage, and less about cc – an offensive weapon.
While shortbow, being a close range weapon, should be a kiting weapon – defensive – aoes and cc.

So it is the longbow what should have burning and torment, while shortbow should have cripple, imobilize and knockdown.

Also remember that most of the problems with rangers come from the “spoiled childhood” – a ranger while levelling learns that the most rewarding strategy is to stand at long range with a lb, out of danger, and pet tanks the mob somewhere far, far away. And synergy of lb with a pet makes this even more rewarding.

If the rangers should be a welcome team members (and PVE is about teaming, if I want to solo I dont need to play MMO) the most rewarding strategy must be rather something like “open with lb then actively cooperate with your pet to get the mob down” and by active cooperation I mean using team buffs, heals, skill synergies, etc. – the pet being the ranger’s team at the moment. Then when teaming with other players, rangers would use the team utility skills naturally and will be able to fight close to their companions and observe what is happening.

Not like now, when it is mostly “omg my bear1 is dead, let me rep it with my bear2, omg both bears are dead and I’m HIT, let me cast healing spring, omg I’m dead how am I supposed to survive such an aoe (while standing on the same spot) oh what was that dodge you talk about, rangers don’t have such skill, ANet why do you make it so hard for rangers to survive???”

Substance E.4852:

Chrispy.5641:

afoot.6932:

Arghore.8340:

…or add spirits to pets (which I personally don’t like at all, but that’s some other discussion)…

Please, elaborate. The potential change to spirits is the topic I’m most interested in at this point.

What the Dev had written::

PvX
General:

1. Remove spirits. They clutter up the map and provide less strategic value with target changes.
   1. Instead, apply an aura to the pet that does the same thing spirits currently do.
      1. Obviously, this would be a huge rework and would require changes to spirit traits.

I personally don’t see how that could be balanced at all.

In all likelihood it means we give up the spirit active or we are limited to 1 spirit at a time per pet.

Something that would make us much better for pve/wvw zergs but would probably be very bad for spvp. A split would be best but I’m assuming they are looking for any reason to gut spirit bunkers at this point anyway.

Anything that buffs the pet, and only the pet, is a massive fail. People hate that our damage is separated, regardless of how much you can buff it.

And removing party support to buff 30% of our damage = epic epic fail.

Specific Game Mode
PvX

Proposal Overview
Teach rangers how to dodge.

Goal of Proposal
Making ranger a mobile fighter – making the static bearbow strategy less rewarding.

Proposal Functionality
Add some utility to dodges in “thief style” like triggering a trap, confusion, pet bonus, swiftness, projectile reflection, regen, whatever, to make dodging (I dont mean dodging weapon skills, but evades with movement keys), close range, and mobile strategy rewarding for rangers.
Make rangers masters of evade and dodge.

Fext.3614:

Specific Game Mode
PvX

Proposal Overview
Teach rangers how to dodge.

Goal of Proposal
Making ranger a mobile fighter – making the static bearbow strategy less rewarding.

Proposal Functionality
Add some utility to dodges in “thief style” like triggering a trap, confusion, pet bonus, swiftness, projectile reflection, regen, whatever, to make dodging (I dont mean dodging weapon skills, but evades with movement keys), close range, and mobile strategy rewarding for rangers.
Make rangers masters of evade and dodge.

Bearbow don’t dodge because of steady focus.

Specific Game Mode
WvW

Proposal Overview
Improve traits sinergy

Goal of Proposal
Make more trait lines woth spending points on as :

Trait lines changes:

Marksmanship : Power / Prowess
Skirmishing : Expertise / Malice
Wilderness Survival : Toughness / Concentration
Nature Magic : Vitality / Compassion
Beastmastery : Precision / Empathy

Trait changes:

Marksmanship : Companion’s might(5) is now moved from Skirmishing; Eagle eye(10) Now recharge longbow skills 20% faster.

Skirmishing : Keen edge(3) is now moved from Marksmanship; Honed axes(9) reduces recharge on main hand axe skill; Quick draw(10) reduce recharge on shortbow.

Wilderness survival : Shared anguish(3) Reduce recharg time from 90s to 60s; Bark skin(12) increase threshold from 25% to 33%.

Nature Magic : Nature’s voice(12) Shouts apply regeneration and remove 2 conditions to allies.

Beastmastery : Master’s bond(2) no longer deactivate the buff when switching pet and reduce the staks; (7)(8)(9) should be merged/ changed in order to work has Vigorous training(10)

Not sure if it’s good or kittenuggestion, but we really need more sinergy on traits, and maybe making few trait line as good as wilderness survival.

If today this thread will get closed, will we get another class CDI later with Ele and after that an Engi / Necro (not sure which was 3rd with votes) one?

Fext.3614:

Specific Game Mode
PvX

Proposal Overview
Teach rangers how to dodge.

Goal of Proposal
Making ranger a mobile fighter – making the static bearbow strategy less rewarding.

Proposal Functionality
Add some utility to dodges in “thief style” like triggering a trap, confusion, pet bonus, swiftness, projectile reflection, regen, whatever, to make dodging (I dont mean dodging weapon skills, but evades with movement keys), close range, and mobile strategy rewarding for rangers.
Make rangers masters of evade and dodge.

Dust Cloak: Blind nearby foes in small area at the end of your dodgeroll, 10s ICD, replace Evasive Purity.

I’ve been periodically checking into this thread and I gotta say that if the items in Allie’s summary from pg 42 are being seriously discussed and evaluated by the devs, then I’m very encouraged. I haven’t added to this CDI because I stopped playing Ranger seriously so long ago I think my contributions would be more harmful than helpful. But I’m following it in hopes that my first and once-favorite class becomes my favorite once again.

Dalanor.5387:

If today this thread will get closed, will we get another class CDI later with Ele and after that an Engi / Necro (not sure which was 3rd with votes) one?

Was there something that said the CDI was going to end today? I’m a bit concerned since we’ve spent so much time talking about nothing but the pet, and even if it worked 100% as advertised, we’d still be a laughing stock in WvW.

I’m crossing my fingers that we get a post in the near future that at least suggests what the devs have in mind.

We’ve talked in circles for the past two weeks. They have more than enough ideas at their disposal. Summaries are nice, but they don’t give us any idea of where our feedback should be focused.

RWinter.1680:

Goal of Proposal
In situations where the ranger is using a ranged weapon, they will frequently not receive buffs provided by party members or other allies located closer to the enemy. This would allow a ranger using ranged weapons to benefit somewhat from boons applied to their pet by group members that are closer to the enemy. It would also allow solo rangers to reliably receive boons that the pet applies to itself, if the ranger is out of the short AoE range.

I’m not sure I like the specific implementation that you proposed (I’d rather it be a simple pass-along share), but I do like the overall idea here. Since ranger pets are frequently in melee, it would be very helpful if there was a way that pets could pick up the AoE boons from other players in melee alongside them instead of the ranger having to be next to them. And that leads me to the following idea, which can also stand on it’s own:

Specific Game Mode
WvW, PvE

Proposal Overview
Allow Rangers to direct their pets to fight with another player, moving near that other player and directing their attacks to the same target as the other player.

Goal of Proposal
To give the Ranger more control over what their pet is doing and improve the Ranger’s team support role. This would also be useful in combination with the idea of letting pets pick up AoE boons for the Ranger from other characters the pet is near. Could also be useful in escort missions for NPCs in PvE.

Proposal Functionality
If the Ranger player hits F1 while targeting another friendly player or NPC, the pet will move near that other player or NPC and fight alongside them, taking their targeting from that player or NPC instead of the Ranger.

Associated Risks
May make the pet a bit harder to control by adding more that it can do.

Specific Game Mode
WvW

Proposal Overview
Introduce a new heal mechanic that causes the Ranger to be healed when the pet is hit, and the pet to be healed when the Ranger is hit. Add this as a short-term buff to Heal as One or add a new Healing skill Signet of Symbiosis. Or possibly replace Natural Healing with a Symbiosis grandmaster trait with this kind of effect.

Goal of Proposal
Make the survivability of tankier pets more of an asset in some game modes. Create a healing skill that incorporates the pet to the same degree we find in some other skills. Encourage rangers to think more about what is happening with their pet, because it now affects their own healing.

With a symbiotic heal, a tanky pet could provide reliable extra healing to a squishy ranger, or a tanky ranger provide reliable healing to a squishy pet. Having the extra healing be based “per hit” it could easily scale to accommodate zerg situations while not unbalancing 1v1 encounters. In many situations tanky pets that provide less than desirable dps could provide some reliable healing and thus be more worth taking.

Proposal Functionality
If changing Heal as One:
For 5 seconds after using Heal as One, the ranger is healed whenever the pet is hit, the pet is healed whenever the ranger is hit. This brings Heal as One more in line with Rampage as One.

If adding Signet of Symbiosis:
Passive: The ranger is healed whenever the pet is hit and the pet is healed whenever the ranger is hit.
Active: Heals both ranger and pet.

Counterplay: The ranger gets less healing if his pet dies.

Associated Risks
Could require a 1s per enemy cooldown for balance depending on size of the heal. The amount of healing gained could vary greatly by game-mode. Would further encourage rangers to split their builds… squishy pet with tanky ranger or vice versa. There may be a better active for signet of symbiosis because in current form it does not benefit from Signet of the Beastmaster.

Berk.8561:

RWinter.1680:

Goal of Proposal
In situations where the ranger is using a ranged weapon, they will frequently not receive buffs provided by party members or other allies located closer to the enemy. This would allow a ranger using ranged weapons to benefit somewhat from boons applied to their pet by group members that are closer to the enemy. It would also allow solo rangers to reliably receive boons that the pet applies to itself, if the ranger is out of the short AoE range.

I’m not sure I like the specific implementation that you proposed (I’d rather it be a simple pass-along share), but I do like the overall idea here. Since ranger pets are frequently in melee, it would be very helpful if there was a way that pets could pick up the AoE boons from other players in melee alongside them instead of the ranger having to be next to them. And that leads me to the following idea, which can also stand on it’s own:

Specific Game Mode
WvW, PvE

Proposal Overview
Allow Rangers to direct their pets to fight with another player, moving near that other player and directing their attacks to the same target as the other player.

Goal of Proposal
To give the Ranger more control over what their pet is doing and improve the Ranger’s team support role. This would also be useful in combination with the idea of letting pets pick up AoE boons for the Ranger from other characters the pet is near. Could also be useful in escort missions for NPCs in PvE.

Proposal Functionality
If the Ranger player hits F1 while targeting another friendly player or NPC, the pet will move near that other player or NPC and fight alongside them, taking their targeting from that player or NPC instead of the Ranger.

Associated Risks
May make the pet a bit harder to control by adding more that it can do.

That’s a lot of work when simply changing Fortifying Bond to work both ways would have the same overall impact. It could be overpowered because we could potentially stack 25 might on ourselves (very quickly), but our damage is so low and our burst non-existent (by design apparently) I don’t see the harm.

Atherakhia.4086:

That’s a lot of work when simply changing Fortifying Bond to work both ways would have the same overall impact. It could be overpowered because we could potentially stack 25 might on ourselves (very quickly), but our damage is so low and our burst non-existent (by design apparently) I don’t see the harm.

That’s pretty much what I’d prefer, too, that the Boon sharing goes both ways so the pets can pick up boons for the Ranger. If they needed to reduce the boons pets pick up to make that viable, I’d be fine with that, too.

But I think being able to target a pet to fight alongside another player or NPC has utility beyond the proposal that inspired it and I’d like to see it independent of boon sharing with the Ranger.

misterdevious.6482:

Specific Game Mode
WvW

Proposal Overview
Introduce a new heal mechanic that causes the Ranger to be healed when the pet is hit, and the pet to be healed when the Ranger is hit. Add this as a short-term buff to Heal as One or add a new Healing skill Signet of Symbiosis.

Goal of Proposal
Make the survivability of tankier pets more of an asset in some game modes. Create a healing skill that incorporates the pet to the same degree we find in some other skills. Encourage rangers to think more about what is happening with their pet, because it now affects their own healing.

With a symbiotic heal, a tanky pet could provide reliable extra healing to a squishy ranger, or a tanky ranger provide reliable healing to a squishy pet. Having the extra healing be based “per hit” it could easily scale to accommodate zerg situations while not unbalancing 1v1 encounters. In many situations tanky pets that provide less than desirable dps could provide some reliable healing and thus be more worth taking.

Proposal Functionality
If changing Heal as One:
For 5 seconds after using Heal as One, the ranger is healed whenever the pet is hit, the pet is healed whenever the ranger is hit. This brings Heal as One more in line with Rampage as One.

If adding Signet of Symbiosis:
Passive: The ranger is healed whenever the pet is hit and the pet is healed whenever the ranger is hit.
Active: Heals both ranger and pet.

Counterplay: The ranger gets less healing if his pet dies.

Associated Risks
Could require a 1s per enemy cooldown for balance depending on size of the heal. The amount of healing gained could vary greatly by game-mode. Would further encourage rangers to split their builds… squishy pet with tanky ranger or vice versa. There may be a better active for signet of symbiosis because in current form it does not benefit from Signet of the Beastmaster.

I’ve suggested pretty much the same for HaO:
Link
It’s a little bit more detailed, so you may like it.

Berk.8561:

Atherakhia.4086:

That’s a lot of work when simply changing Fortifying Bond to work both ways would have the same overall impact. It could be overpowered because we could potentially stack 25 might on ourselves (very quickly), but our damage is so low and our burst non-existent (by design apparently) I don’t see the harm.

That’s pretty much what I’d prefer, too, that the Boon sharing goes both ways so the pets can pick up boons for the Ranger. If they needed to reduce the boons pets pick up to make that viable, I’d be fine with that, too.

But I think being able to target a pet to fight alongside another player or NPC has utility beyond the proposal that inspired it and I’d like to see it independent of boon sharing with the Ranger.

I think for boon sharing between ranger and pet, it would need to be something along the lines of “you and your pet share boons from different source”

so that my pet is away, I use warhorn, get the boons and give them to my party, then my pet picks the up from me, but, if my pet is getting directly my WH boons, it wouldn’t get them through the link.

Risk: Would break the build where pet gets boons both direclty and through the link

Technicalities :
the game already allows to know who gave a boon;
there is already a link that gives rangers’ boons to the pet;
so I guess the sharing both ways wouldn’t be too hard to do.

Special mention to whoever proposed to have pets scale according to foes… A great “think out of the box” using existing game tools that would greatly help in many settings, while not making the pet overpowered in roaming/small scale play.
Love it!
:D

Jocksy.3415:

Special mention to whoever proposed to have pets scale according to foes… A great “think out of the box” using existing game tools that would greatly help in many settings, while not making the pet overpowered in roaming/small scale play.
Love it!
:D

Might as well do it in proper format then.

Specific Game Mode
PvX (excluding PvP)

Proposal Overview
Implement Pet HP Scaling.

Goal of Proposal
Increase pet survivability in world events, dungeons, and WvW.

Proposal Functionality
Scale pet HP based on number of nearby enemies. This would help pets survive in areas of the game where they typically have problems surviving (world events, dungeons, WvW zergs) without making them too strong in other areas (WvW roaming). PvE version should probably scale with enemy level and quality (elite, legendary, etc.)

Associated Risks
Healing becomes useless when health scales up. May need to scale healing, but at a slower rate.

@Afoot , various other rangers have elaborated on your question (for which I thank them). I have nothing more to add really except maybe why I am apposed to adding spirits to pets, as some sort of aura on the pet.

1. Foremost, both the pet as well as the spirits seem to be the most unreliable (they can die fairly quickly) sets of Ranger ‘features’. Combining the two will not change that at all. It will only mean that now instead of two squishy targets there will be just ONE.

2. (resulting in) The ranger gets even more penalized for being a ranger, not only will 30% of his damage be dead, but also his spirits. While this may not matter much in the grand scope of them being equally unreliable, it will surely increase the frustration over the pet.

3. Even more defining features of the GW1 ranger get tossed aside. Although, in GW1 the spirits were highly impactful area of effect anchors (something like ‘global enchantments in MtG). Right now they are, well either some sort of Theme enabler (where a ranger likes to walk around with spirits), or they are a ’defending wall’ for as far as sPvP goes (and yes, defender, wall are words I choose from MtG as well). They are by no means ’highly impactful AoE Anchors.

4. Instead of spirits adding aura’s to pets, there is a much simpler and much more effective and much more benefitting way to change spirits: Make them nontargetable, short lasting, reliable in effect, long range (1000 or so), AoE anchors. also see the next suggestion I am putting up.

5. It solves nothing, while I like the idea for its creativity (just for being ‘an idea’), there are other more serious issues to solve than adding auras to pet through a rework of spirits. And by solving nothing I am sort of back to 1. & 2. the pet’s reliability doesn’t magically increase through the addition of auras, nor does the reliability of spirits. Solving the other issues should (in my point of view) be more important.

WvsW
I would like to point the fact that unlike most classes,
ranger dont have any spammable mass control mechanics.

Elem have counless chill/root/wall/statics/
Warriors have stuns and bump every 7 sec
Necro have chill and fear
Guards have a strong wall and a pretty nice grap
Engies have a lot of control tools

Then Ranger have a 25 sec CD on a 2sec imobilize and a 1 sec giver, or can use a pet to fear. Most controls are single targeted, making them useless versus zergs.

I can sustain as a Warrior, maybe, but i can’t control in AOE efficiently while my DPS is lower.

Suggestion
If Swoop (GS3) could immobilize 2 seconds at 300 range at land, it could be a fair and visible mass control tool allowing us to be competitive on massives confrontations

Specific Game Mode
PvX, mostly WvW.

Proposal Overview
Make spirits non-targetable, reliable, long range (1200 or so), short lasting, AoE anchors.

Goal of Proposal
Spirits right now are fairly unreliable in their effect when not traited, but even then their impact is almost negligible. They can be killed, which, in the AoE rich environment that GW2 is, combined with a lot of really hard hitting powers, makes them even more unreliable. Both to the point where only spirit of frost is used for it’s bugged nature (from what I understand), and spirits themselves are used not for their designed function but as ‘walls’ to hide behind in sPvP. Spirits also foster a somewhat ‘passive’ play style, especially when their ‘trigger’ can be traited ‘on death’.

The goal thus becomes to change this, and to give spirits ‘back’ their impactful nature they are renowned for, to all those that know GW1. And add a bit more ‘attention demanding’ to them.

Proposal Functionality
Spirits are non-targetable, long range (1200 or so), AoE anchors, they also provide a combo field. They can be ‘changed’ to provide an additional (different) effect. The spirits are also renamed, to provide a different thematic feel (as opposed to the Elementalist feel they have now). This idea was copy/pasted from: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/ranger/Suggestion-typed-out-for-the-CDI/first#content hence there are only 3 spirits and 1 healing skill.

Krytan spirit – Spirit (this spirit can’t be a target and lives for 7sec, on a 25sec couldown.)
Summon a krytan spirit that grants all allies in range a 40/40% chance on regeneration /or remove a condition on attack. The area around the spirit (trap size) is a water field.
-> Evaporate – disgard your spirit, the spirit gives off 5 pulses (1/sec) that heal allies, during ‘this time’ the area around the spirit (trap size) turns into a smoke field.

Shiverpeak Spirit (this spirit can’t be a target and lives for 5sec, on a 30sec cool down.)
Summon a Shiverpeak spirit, the spirit grants allies in range a 33/33% chance to knockdown /or remove stability from foes. The area around the spirit (trap size) is an ice field.
-> Avalange – the shiverpeak spirit releases 3 pulses of chill (1st, 3rd, 5th sec) to foes in range, during ‘this time’ the area around the spirit turns into lightning field.

Crystal Desert Spirit (this spirit can’t be a target and lives for 5 sec, on a 30sec cool down)
Summon a Crystal Desert Spirit, the spirit grants allies in range a 33/33% chance to inflict blind /or burning on attack, a small area around the spirit (trap size) is a light field.
-> Ablaze – the Crystal Desert Spirit releases 3 pulses of fire (1st, 3rd, 5th sec) to foes in range, during ‘this time’ the area around the spirit turns into a fire field.

Maguma Spirit (this spirit can’t be a target and lives for 5 sec, on a 25sec cool down)
Summon a Maguma Spirit, the spirit grants allies in range a 33/33% chance to apply weakness /or vulnerability, a small area around the spirit (trap size) is a water field.
-> Quicksand – the Maguma spirit releases 3 pulses torment (1st, 3rd, 5th sec) to foes in range, during ‘this time’ the small area around the spirit (trap size) turns into a dark field.

Associated Risks
- I may have made them to strong.
- I will have to mention that I may not have their balance (up times, recharge, effect% etc) entirely right yet.
- I haven’t formulated the traits to go with them, but ideas were to increase % to 50/50 (likely as grandmaster), to increase their uptime OR reduce their recharge (as master choices). To give them ‘summon at target location’ functionality (likely also master, maybe adept). And likely some other minor improvements, f/e make the combo-field on the activation a traited function instead of a basefeature.

- Lastly, these spirits may have a game changing effect on WvW , with multiple Rangers around and various spirits popping up (or continued functionality in coordinated groups), I do not see this as a risk though, I designed them specifically to impact large group content, and I think they may give Rangers a well deserved feature for WvW, while not impacting sPvP to much.

Arghore.8340:

@Afoot , various other rangers have elaborated on your question (for which I thank them). I have nothing more to add really except maybe why I am apposed to adding spirits to pets, as some sort of aura on the pet.

1. Foremost, both the pet as well as the spirits seem to be the most unreliable (they can die fairly quickly) sets of Ranger ‘features’. Combining the two will not change that at all. It will only mean that now instead of two squishy targets there will be just ONE.

2. (resulting in) The ranger gets even more penalized for being a ranger, not only will 30% of his damage be dead, but also his spirits. While this may not matter much in the grand scope of them being equally unreliable, it will surely increase the frustration over the pet.

3. Even more defining features of the GW1 ranger get tossed aside. Although, in GW1 the spirits were highly impactful area of effect anchors (something like ‘global enchantments in MtG). Right now they are, well either some sort of Theme enabler (where a ranger likes to walk around with spirits), or they are a ’defending wall’ for as far as sPvP goes (and yes, defender, wall are words I choose from MtG as well). They are by no means ’highly impactful AoE Anchors.

4. Instead of spirits adding aura’s to pets, there is a much simpler and much more effective and much more benefitting way to change spirits: Make them nontargetable, short lasting, reliable in effect, long range (1000 or so), AoE anchors. also see the next suggestion I am putting up.

5. It solves nothing, while I like the idea for its creativity (just for being ‘an idea’), there are other more serious issues to solve than adding auras to pet through a rework of spirits. And by solving nothing I am sort of back to 1. & 2. the pet’s reliability doesn’t magically increase through the addition of auras, nor does the reliability of spirits. Solving the other issues should (in my point of view) be more important.

That is the problem with this entire CDI and why we’ve been going in circles for 2 weeks and have accomplished very little overall.

Do we propose solutions with the assumption that ANet will deliver a working and viable pet mechanic for the Ranger class? Do we propose solutions that assume nothing will change and work around the numerous issues we have today? Or do we propose solutions as alternatives to the current pet?

Making spirits work as ‘auras’ for pets is actually a pretty good idea overall if your plan is to make a balanced game and be given a working pet mechanic.

It removes the screen clutter which is an enormous issues in sPvP. It ensures the Ranger is rewarded for taking proper care of the pet. It is far more streamlined than having 4 independent pets to keep track of. It would allow ANet to go back to an ‘always on’ approach to spirits.

The advantages are numerous. The problem is which scenario ANet will deliver to us. As you said… ANet chosing to leave pets as is or phase them out completely will obviously not allow spirits to become a part of the pet.

Making them banners is not high on my to-do list either though.

wolfyrik.2017:

Eosaujii.5713:

Specific Game Mode

WvW

Proposal Overview

Pets are part of the Ranger’s heart and soul. The idiom, ‘whats mine is yours, whats yours is mine’ could be the fundamental game mechanic for a Ranger and her Pet.

In this regard, no distinction should be made in the traits between Ranger or Pet – all traits/signets, etc., should effect both the Ranger and the Pet equally. The Ranger and Pet should have full synergy.

Goal of Proposal

Balance the Ranger with her natural role as a Champion of Nature let her be as one with the wild animals she calls friend. The Pets will impart their strengths upon the Ranger and in turn, she imparts all of hers upon them.

This synergistic relationship will make the Ranger greater than the sum of its parts.

Proposal Functionality

Remove the traits from the Ranger’s lineup that are only for the Pet, and rework them so that what effects the Ranger now also effects the Pet.

Bring a new level of synergy between the Ranger and Pet by allowing the pooling of health, the sharing of all boons, and the ability of each animal to impart a mode of defense and/or offense to the Ranger – this relationship exists in harmony, and is in effect all of the time.

Some examples of this:

Bear defense: imparts a bonus to health pool (scalable depending on level)
Bear offense: imparts a terrifying instant roar (stance) causing weakness and fear

Spider defense: imparts a sticky residue, causing an attacker to be immobilized momentarily
Spider offense: increases the potency of all the Ranger’s poisons, along with durations

Hawk defense: imparts a special sight to the Ranger, allowing her to block some missiles
Hawk offense: increases the range of all missiles, with a bonus to crit on the initial shot

Each animal in turn, would offer to the Ranger something unique. These functions could replace the current pet-bar, and be accessible as a normal class function.

Associated Risks

There are no risks associated with this, as it will simply balance the game play of the Ranger, forever removing the handicap of having a class with reliance on an AI driven game mechanic.

By allowing the Pet itself to become part of what the Ranger is, the Ranger no longer has to rely on the game server for the other half of her abilities.

This sounds like the sort of direction that pets should have taken in the first place, with only one, unfortunately rather large, issue; we’d be sharing our character health with the same awful AI pet that cannot dodge attacks, doesn’t evade AoE and can’t jump obstacles. In other words a shared healthpool with pets with the current combat mechanics, would result in an insta-dead ranger in many scenarios.
Drop the shared health pool idea and you’ve got the base of what pets, arguably, should already be.
If defensive mode ment merging the pet with the ranger, it would be perfect.

Anet would have to scrap the current system for Ranger pets for this idea to work.

In other words, they’d have to put the world mobs back on the shelf, and recode some Ranger specific pets. Once the new pets have been created, then Anet could easily manage pet traits/skills/levels, along with just about anything that could be modified in that regard – without effecting ‘world balance’.

Everyone has an idea what the Ranger is, or should be, but the fact remains that our GW2 Rangers are bound to a pet.

An idea for sharing a pooled health with your pet is part of that spiritual bond between the Ranger and the pet, but doesn’t mean that if your pet is squashed by a ZERG that you die, just that a ratio of your health has been lost (temporarily).

As an example (clearly just a suggestion at this point), if your stats/gear gave you 21,000 health, and under the new system you have spec’d a tank/warder bear with a health of 42,000hp, Anet could arrange traits in the pet’s control panel that allow you access to say 66% of the Bear’s total pool of health, and the Bear will get 33% of your Ranger’s health pool. The shared total health now becomes:

Ranger: 21,000hp + 27,720hp = 48,720hp [Note: Bear imparts .66*42000]
Bear: 42,000hp + 6930 = 48,930hp [Note: Ranger imparts .33*21000]

Now this pooled health can be part of the NEW Rangers control panel (replaces old pet bar) in which the Ranger can hit a panic button on the bar to trigger the shared health mode, which would be on a countdown of say 10 secs, with a CD of 15 seconds (all traited).

Of course, diminishing returns take effect, for if during a fight neither the Bear or the Ranger were able to get fully healed up, then the next triggering of shared health would be at a reduced amount…

As you can see, this become part of what makes the Ranger, and her pet a team.

Sharing, or pure synergy is what this is all about

Berk.8561:

A general observation:

“It’s extremely important that we stay true to our philosophy that you should be able to play Guild Wars 2 the way you want to play the game in order to reach the most powerful rewards.” – Colin Johanson on Guild Wars 2 in the Months Ahead

(https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/colin-johanson-on-guild-wars-2-in-the-months-ahead/)

Allie Murdock has, throughout this thread, stated that the design philosophy of the Ranger is slow and steady damage rather than burst damage and that the pet is integral to the class concept. I just want to make sure it’s not lost that based on the player comments, this clearly clashes with the way many people want to play their Ranger. So this should raise the question of why the game won’t let people play their Rangers the way many clearly want to. Specifically (these have been mentioned again and again in this thread)
(Snipped for post size)

^THIS. I cannot +1 this enough. I’ve been lurking on this thread for a few days now, having left GW2 in December after the “rebalance,” and THIS post gets to WHY I left. My PvE main was ele, sPvP ranger, (WvW was just never my cup of tea; if you love it, more power to you! ) Since ele was another potential target class for this thread, I’ll use it as an example, too. I was running 10, 5, 5, 25(?), 30 on ele, and that build was great for me for eight months. I was playing MY character the way that I wanted to. Now, unless the class were rolled back to its state at Thanksgiving, I’ll never, ever be able to play ele the way I want to again; she’d effectively remain in forced-retirement. Sure there’s your might-stacking fire builds, etc., but those never appealed to me, and I’d sooner NOT play a class than allow the developers to force me to play it in a way that I don’t want. Same for ranger. When dodging and vigor were nerfed, I could no longer play my ranger the way I wanted to. I have 0 in BM because I never found even one point in there to be worth it; now I’m being told that that’s key to ranger and screw you if you don’t like it. I also want to second, third, fourth, whatever those who said ranger doesn’t have a broken 2×4; there’s cracks in the foundation and toxic mold in the walls.

I’d argue that, before ANet should be allowed to change a class, especially substantially, spend four months, yes, months, maining that class, and I mean at least 10 hours a week. Spend a month on PvE, and I mean Living Story (reload Canach’s dungeon and play a ranger; have fun!) explorable paths of Arah, CM, CoE, Teq, Wurm, Fire ele, map clearing, etc. Spend a month in sPvP, and find out how fun that is under the mess its “roadmap” is for those of us who just did it for kicks. Then spend a month in WvW, and I mean on a T1 server, SoR, JQ, TC, etc. And, on and off during this time, also spend time in mapchat in a huge place like LA, pop your ANet tag, and talk to players about how we play the game. When I’m seeing substantial changes to my medium and light classes from a company where seeing them as a non-heavy class is a NOTEWORTHY event among players… When Chesterton talked about reformers, the one he held up as an ideal would not allow his companion to remove a fence for which she saw no use until his friend SAW the use for the fence. A similar philosophy here would likely diffuse a LOT of player anger.

This thread is, ultimately, a test for ArenaNet; will they simply use it to justify controversial changes that they had ALREADY decided to make? That’s where I’d put my money. Or will they actually listen and be willing to eat crow if need be? I’m not holding my breath, but if they prove me wrong, I’ll eat crow until I choke on it. At this point, even if I did start playing again, I’d main my warrior and level up my guardian; those classes, from ANet’s perspective, are immune.