A Suggestion For Raids

A Suggestion For Raids

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Goldfox.5729

Goldfox.5729

Hello.

Recently I’ve had a discussion with a few of my guild members about the current state of Raids and how it could be improved to reach out to a larger group of the player-base. This resulted in me writing this post and sharing the ideas we came up with.
First of all let me make clear that I don’t think Raids are wrong in how they are as of today, but I do believe that there’s more potential in the amazing content that only a handful of developers were able to develop for only a handful of the player-base. With that being said let me continue to the topic…

‘’How would you improve the availability of Raids to more players?’’

To improve this problem you must first identify what the cause is of the problem. And the cause is that most players who casually play GW2 often feel intimidated to give Raids a try because there’s this large bias going around that Raids are impossible and can only be completed with a group of 10 elite players who know exactly what to do. As a comparison I would like to take Fractals of the Mists.
Fractals of the Mists can be quite challenging and tedious work if you’re playing it on the high-tier levels, but because of the availability of lower tiers (which need no AR) people who are new to it feel more comfortable to give Fractals a try and slowly climb the ladder until they reach the top-tiers.
Thus you might wonder… If it works good like that with Fractals, would it also work to have a tier scale with Raids?

‘’How would a tier scale fit in Raids?’’

In order to understand this idea we must first divide Raids into specific tiers; and we can use 3 tiers as an example of how this would work. The first tier could be as difficult as the Vanilla Dungeons and serve as an introduction to Raids for people that are completely new. The second tier could be as difficult as T3 or T4 Fractals and could serve as the daily-running for rewards by casual, but comfortable people. The third tier would then have the original difficulty and would serve as the weekly run with full rewards and progression towards Legendary armor.

‘’In what other ways would the tiers be distinguished from eachother?’’

Tiers could be distinguished not only in difficulty but also in the rewards and progression you get to specific things. For an example, doing Tier 1 would give you a certain currency that you can convert into a currency of Tier 2 and so forth. The weekly cap from Tier 3 would not apply on the lower tiers, giving more room for advanced players to farm Raids more often and still get all the rewards they want. And this would also motivate people who try it out on Tier 1 to try to go even higher and on a more consistent amount. One other important thing to distinguish the tiers from eachother is by locking the LFG into specific tiers just the same as with Fractals. This would keep the division of advanced players and new players but still keep every kind of player satisfied that they are able to delve into this large chunk of content.

’’Wouldn’t that just require alot of resources of Anet to make a bunch of changes?’’

In my opinion this is not necessarily the case. The length and design of all the Raids should be exactly the same; but tweaking the HP of bosses and their output damage could already be a big change for people. Reducing the amount of times an encounter could potentially wipe an entire party is also given for the lower tiers and would only be good as a practice for people who want to climb up the tiers of Raids slowly. And making a few changes to an already existing content so that more people can enjoy it and feel less intimidated by it is only a bonus for both Anet and the entire player-base.

‘’How would this be beneficial to Anet?’’

This would be good for Anet because if they increase the player-base for raids they will have more reason to develop this quality content for both advanced and casual players. More resources could be put into it and as a result a larger majority of the people will be satisfied with the work of Anet. The advanced community wouldn’t get hurt because they can still organize their own groups and look for players in a locked group of the LFG section according to what tier will be played.

This is, and maybe always will be, just an idea that passed the minds of maybe more people than just me and a few of my guildies. It might not fit Raids, it might be utterly wrong, but ideas are never bad to be suggested and that is why this suggestion should be taken seriously. If you have come this far I thank you for reading. Any opinions, whether for or against, are always welcome in the comments below, but provide your reasoning as to why this is a good or a bad idea.

o/

‘’Many have eyes, but few have seen.’’ – Scriptures of Lyssa, 45 BE

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Posted by: Amaimon.7823

Amaimon.7823

Its always great to see people going to lengths to make their voice heard, and make it heard the right way. I don’t have much time to respond to it all right now, but I can suggest you copy it to the raid/dungeon/fractal section, you might reach more folk there.

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Posted by: Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

I’m against any difficulty levels below what we have now being able to obtain achievement/collection progression as well as earn legendary insights from beating a boss. There should be no incentive to go the route that takes the least effort.

(edited by Ayrilana.1396)

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Posted by: Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

Its always great to see people going to lengths to make their voice heard, and make it heard the right way. I don’t have much time to respond to it all right now, but I can suggest you copy it to the raid/dungeon/fractal section, you might reach more folk there.

Their suggestion has more or less already been made.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Making-tiers-in-Raids-like-fractals/first#post6356971

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Posted by: OnizukaBR.8537

OnizukaBR.8537

This topic again ? Let me show you how to use the search tool on the forum.
Here you can see this same topic already beat to death, and answered/locked by the Devs:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/An-issue-raids-and-their-accesibility/page/5#post6389189
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Raid-problem-solutions/first#post6389222
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Making-tiers-in-Raids-like-fractals/page/5#post6390112

So there is nothing more to discuss and this topic should be locked.

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Posted by: Goldfox.5729

Goldfox.5729

This topic again ? Let me show you how to use the search tool on the forum.
Here you can see this same topic already beat to death, and answered/locked by the Devs:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/An-issue-raids-and-their-accesibility/page/5#post6389189
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Raid-problem-solutions/first#post6389222
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Making-tiers-in-Raids-like-fractals/page/5#post6390112

So there is nothing more to discuss and this topic should be locked.

If there’s so much debate about it then maybe it should be considered instead of locked down.

‘’Many have eyes, but few have seen.’’ – Scriptures of Lyssa, 45 BE

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Posted by: BlaqueFyre.5678

BlaqueFyre.5678

@Goldfox
It has been discussed multiple times there has been nothing new to add to the conversation. The raids are fine as they are, they exceeded expectations of the target audience and then some.

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Posted by: Rednik.3809

Rednik.3809

@Goldfox
It has been discussed multiple times there has been nothing new to add to the conversation. The raids are fine as they are, they exceeded expectations of the target audience and then some.

Raids are not fine as they are, and constant flow of new topics about them only proves that.

Kiijna, Xast, Satis Ironwail, Sekhaina, Shira Forgesparkle, Sfeno, Nasibi, Tegeira, Rhonwe…
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Posted by: OnizukaBR.8537

OnizukaBR.8537

@Goldfox
It has been discussed multiple times there has been nothing new to add to the conversation. The raids are fine as they are, they exceeded expectations of the target audience and then some.

Raids are not fine as they are, and constant flow of new topics about them only proves that.

Yes because 5-6 people creating topics represents a big data. So if people like me that like raids start creating threads with the same topics “Raids are the best, GW2 should only have raids” it would prove that gw2 only needs raids right?? /s

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Posted by: Absurdo.8309

Absurdo.8309

Yes, this topic has been discussed to death. And, sorry to OP, but there’s nothing new in this suggestion.

Here are the common responses:

1. This is a lot more work than you think. Multi-modal content is a lot more than adjusting some values.

2. The fractal release schedule is really slow. Even with the new fractal next week, the fractal releases don’t hold a candle next to raids. I don’t want raids to go the same way.

3. Easy modes, as you frame them, would not serve as long term content. That is, there’s no reason to do them if you can beat the normal mode (assuming rewards are balanced)

4. Easy modes offer nothing to players who can already beat them.

5. There’s tons of other easy content in this game, why does everything need to be easy? There’s no hard mode silverwastes, for example.

6. Groups train just fine on normal mode.

7. Other hard content in this game has no easy mode. See arah and Aetherpath.

8. Other content serves as a stepping stone into raids. If you can beat t4 fractals and the dungeons, you can raid.

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Posted by: Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

@Goldfox
It has been discussed multiple times there has been nothing new to add to the conversation. The raids are fine as they are, they exceeded expectations of the target audience and then some.

Raids are not fine as they are, and constant flow of new topics about them only proves that.

There are constant threads created about a variety of topics. That doesn’t mean that anything suggested in them should be implemented.

Raids were developed for those that wanted challenging content that required coordination. They were not developed to be half-kittened so that players could complete without putting much effort like existing dungeons and fractals.

The only reason that players keep complaining about there not being a novice difficulty tier (or whatever its equivalent) is because they want the legendary armor. If that armor didn’t exist then there likely would not be any of these threads.

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Posted by: Blaeys.3102

Blaeys.3102

This topic again ? Let me show you how to use the search tool on the forum.
Here you can see this same topic already beat to death, and answered/locked by the Devs:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/An-issue-raids-and-their-accesibility/page/5#post6389189
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Raid-problem-solutions/first#post6389222
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Making-tiers-in-Raids-like-fractals/page/5#post6390112

So there is nothing more to discuss and this topic should be locked.

If there’s so much debate about it then maybe it should be considered instead of locked down.

This.

It is pretty evident that this topic isn’t going away anytime soon. Even outside of the more vocal advocates like myself, it has a tendency to naturally appear in other subforums as people take a more critical look at raids and how they fit in the game.

That said, I do think a moderator should merge this with the other threads on this same topic. As many have pointed out, discussion of this topic has been going on for a VERY long time. Having the bulk of that conversation in a single thread would be useful.

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Posted by: Rising Dusk.2408

Rising Dusk.2408

This topic again ? Let me show you how to use the search tool on the forum.
Here you can see this same topic already beat to death, and answered/locked by the Devs:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/An-issue-raids-and-their-accesibility/page/5#post6389189
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Raid-problem-solutions/first#post6389222
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Making-tiers-in-Raids-like-fractals/page/5#post6390112

So there is nothing more to discuss and this topic should be locked.

If there’s so much debate about it then maybe it should be considered instead of locked down.

This.

It is pretty evident that this topic isn’t going away anytime soon. Even outside of the more vocal advocates like myself, it has a tendency to naturally appear in other subforums as people take a more critical look at raids and how they fit in the game.

Just because a ton of players keep asking for something (ie. Open World Dueling) doesn’t mean it should be implemented. See this post for all of the well-documented reasons why this shouldn’t be implemented.

[VZ] Valor Zeal – Stormbluff Isle – Looking for steady, casual-friendly NA raiders!

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Posted by: Dinosaurs.8674

Dinosaurs.8674

This topic again ? Let me show you how to use the search tool on the forum.
Here you can see this same topic already beat to death, and answered/locked by the Devs:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/An-issue-raids-and-their-accesibility/page/5#post6389189
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Raid-problem-solutions/first#post6389222
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Making-tiers-in-Raids-like-fractals/page/5#post6390112

So there is nothing more to discuss and this topic should be locked.

If there’s so much debate about it then maybe it should be considered instead of locked down.

Or maybe people could respond to existing threads instead of making new ones with identical OPs.

The dev responses at the end of the locked ones are pretty succinct as well. The suggestions have been received. Mission complete.

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Posted by: Blaeys.3102

Blaeys.3102

This topic again ? Let me show you how to use the search tool on the forum.
Here you can see this same topic already beat to death, and answered/locked by the Devs:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/An-issue-raids-and-their-accesibility/page/5#post6389189
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Raid-problem-solutions/first#post6389222
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Making-tiers-in-Raids-like-fractals/page/5#post6390112

So there is nothing more to discuss and this topic should be locked.

If there’s so much debate about it then maybe it should be considered instead of locked down.

This.

It is pretty evident that this topic isn’t going away anytime soon. Even outside of the more vocal advocates like myself, it has a tendency to naturally appear in other subforums as people take a more critical look at raids and how they fit in the game.

Just because a ton of players keep asking for something (ie. Open World Dueling) doesn’t mean it should be implemented. See this post for all of the well-documented reasons why this shouldn’t be implemented.

And, reading on through that thread, there are counterpoints to every point he makes. The fact that there are many who disagree with what you link combined with the fact that many agree means there is a desire (and a need) to continue the conversation. The fact that we see these threads pop up in other subforums from new people on a semi consistent basis means it is a discussion that isn’t going away anytime soon. People will continue to readdress – many without knowledge of (nor having had the opportunity to provide feedback in) the older threads.

These topics need to be merged – and then the conversation needs to be allows to continue. That way all of the information and discussion are in one place – and people joining the conversation anew (which, based on the anecdotal evidence, will continue to happen) can more easily see everything that’s been said to date – by people with all of the differing points of view.

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Posted by: Sykper.6583

Sykper.6583

1, 2, 3, 4, 6, and 7.

There were no counterpoints to those Blaeys, feel free to state the arguments here that completely counter the arguments.

Notice how I did not note all of his points, I think point 5 is subjective and point 8 is not quite true yet, T4 fractals are still a different experience entirely.

Suicidal Warrior.
Putting Perspective on Zerg Sizes since 2012. Common Suffixes for 40+ include ~Zilla and ~Train
“Seriously, just dodge.”

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Posted by: Crystal Reid

Crystal Reid

Game Designer

Next

This comes up a lot so I’m going to jump in quickly since it’s a new post.

Tier systems for Raids come up a lot as a result of what Fractals did. I worked on the original Fractals team and a tiered system with increased difficulty scaling was always part of the original plan for that team. It was never a plan for Raids. They are, and should remain, the most difficult content in the game.

Accessibility in terms of difficulty is something we talk a lot about internally. We’ve made efforts to help players get in by delivering entry level encounters that ease you into the content (STK) and you’ll see more of that in the next release. You’ll still see encounters that live up to previous raid expectations for mid tier and final bosses. And if you think Matthias is a chump then we have something for you as well.

Accessibility in terms of “Hey, my 5 man Fractal group wants to try raids, but we can’t find 5 other players!” is also something we talk about. It’s just a much more difficult problem to solve.

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Posted by: Sirbeaumerdier.3740

Sirbeaumerdier.3740

Accessibility in terms of “Hey, my 5 man Fractal group wants to try raids, but we can’t find 5 other players!” is also something we talk about. It’s just a much more difficult problem to solve.

This is by FAR the biggest accessibility issue that I’m aware of but I really don’t know how you guys can tackle this when the entire content is 10 players based and the build requirement more restrictive than anything else.

Guild groups is a possible solution, but after going through so many I can tell you its FAR from so easy to get the right one for you and your time frame. People who have a good and stable guild group for raid probably do not realize this.

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Posted by: Azoqu.8917

Azoqu.8917

Accessibility in terms of “Hey, my 5 man Fractal group wants to try raids, but we can’t find 5 other players!” is also something we talk about. It’s just a much more difficult problem to solve.

As a successful raider, this is something I wish was looked at in multiple different ways. I love raids and the difficulty that comes with them but at times I wish they were 5 man instead of 10 because it is really easy to find a core of 5 people because of fractals and dungeons. I do hope you, in the future, make “raids” (or dungeons cough) that are for 5 people but just as hard, or harder, than the current raid.

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Posted by: NovaanVerdiano.6174

NovaanVerdiano.6174

And if you think Matthias is a chump then we have something for you as well.

Should we be hyped?

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Posted by: Sykper.6583

Sykper.6583

Thank you Crystal for your response on this.

Also, Matthias is like a harder form of VG, the difficulty can spike pretty badly when someone messes up. I am liking the concept that you think you can one-up that encounter.

Suicidal Warrior.
Putting Perspective on Zerg Sizes since 2012. Common Suffixes for 40+ include ~Zilla and ~Train
“Seriously, just dodge.”

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Posted by: skarpak.8594

skarpak.8594

This comes up a lot so I’m going to jump in quickly since it’s a new post.

Tier systems for Raids come up a lot as a result of what Fractals did. I worked on the original Fractals team and a tiered system with increased difficulty scaling was always part of the original plan for that team. It was never a plan for Raids. They are, and should remain, the most difficult content in the game.

Accessibility in terms of difficulty is something we talk a lot about internally. We’ve made efforts to help players get in by delivering entry level encounters that ease you into the content (STK) and you’ll see more of that in the next release. You’ll still see encounters that live up to previous raid expectations for mid tier and final bosses. And if you think Matthias is a chump then we have something for you as well.

Accessibility in terms of “Hey, my 5 man Fractal group wants to try raids, but we can’t find 5 other players!” is also something we talk about. It’s just a much more difficult problem to solve.

thank you so much for this post. i hope all the people who just want an easy way out will be silenced now.

just want to let you know that your team does such a great work and raiding is really enjoyable. when speedrunning dungeon was a big thing back then i met so many new people and now with raids the same fire (at least in some groups) is back again.

quick related question: do you plan on releasing some infos about how many people beat the raid / how often etc. anytime soon.
even tho it is probably the minority, it would still be a nice thing to know.

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Posted by: Miellyn.6847

Miellyn.6847

Accessibility in terms of “Hey, my 5 man Fractal group wants to try raids, but we can’t find 5 other players!” is also something we talk about. It’s just a much more difficult problem to solve.

As a successful raider, this is something I wish was looked at in multiple different ways. I love raids and the difficulty that comes with them but at times I wish they were 5 man instead of 10 because it is really easy to find a core of 5 people because of fractals and dungeons. I do hope you, in the future, make “raids” (or dungeons cough) that are for 5 people but just as hard, or harder, than the current raid.

Will never happen. Part of the difficulty is the coordination between the players.
Less players -> less coordination -> less difficult
5 man content will never be as difficult as 10 man content.

This is a problem that actually has no solution if you want to keep the difficulty the same.

Meena Wolfsgeist | Ranger
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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

As I expected, and have been saying on all the other threads on the subject, it’s not possible to add tiers of difficulty on something that wasn’t created with tiers in mind from its creation. Not without serious rework and effort that is. Forsaken Thicket won’t get tiers, ever.

And one note that I wanted to make to the OP:

The first tier could be as difficult as the Vanilla Dungeons and serve as an introduction to Raids for people that are completely new. The second tier could be as difficult as T3 or T4 Fractals and could serve as the daily-running for rewards by casual, but comfortable people.

Raids are the hardest content in the game, and need to stay that way. Even if an easy mode for Raids was coming to some future Raid, that will be created with Tiers in mind (for some reason), ALL of those tiers, even the lowest tier, need to be at higher difficulty than T4 Fractals difficulty. You want dungeon and fractal difficulty? Go play dungeons and fractals. Raids should never have dungeon/fractal difficulty but way above them, even in a hypothetical easier mode.

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Posted by: Rednik.3809

Rednik.3809

Raids are the hardest content in the game, and need to stay that way.

In that case, raid will become an obvious scapegoat for a content drought, and if drought will continue at same rate as it was in HoT – a rightful scapegoat. Because there is obviously way too much content for a such little chunk of players who playing it constantly.

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

Raids are the hardest content in the game, and need to stay that way.

In that case, raid will become an obvious scapegoat for a content drought, and if drought will continue at same rate as it was in HoT – a rightful scapegoat. Because there is obviously way too much content for a such little chunk of players who playing it constantly.

I don’t see this drought anymore, it only lasted for as long as it took them to re-make Heart of Thorns maps to be liked by the average Joe because they found them too hard. Now that the rebalancing is done we get more Fractals and new zones than we ever did in the past (in similar time frames).

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Posted by: Hypairion.9210

Hypairion.9210

In that case, raid will become an obvious scapegoat for a content drought, and if drought will continue at same rate as it was in HoT – a rightful scapegoat. Because there is obviously way too much content for a such little chunk of players who playing it constantly.

But be honest, you won’t be satisfied until raids are erased from the game because you don’t like them. What i see is one more fractal soon, LS3 new episode soon, etc…

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Posted by: musu.9205

musu.9205

This comes up a lot so I’m going to jump in quickly since it’s a new post.

Tier systems for Raids come up a lot as a result of what Fractals did. I worked on the original Fractals team and a tiered system with increased difficulty scaling was always part of the original plan for that team. It was never a plan for Raids. They are, and should remain, the most difficult content in the game.

Accessibility in terms of difficulty is something we talk a lot about internally. We’ve made efforts to help players get in by delivering entry level encounters that ease you into the content (STK) and you’ll see more of that in the next release. You’ll still see encounters that live up to previous raid expectations for mid tier and final bosses. And if you think Matthias is a chump then we have something for you as well.

Accessibility in terms of “Hey, my 5 man Fractal group wants to try raids, but we can’t find 5 other players!” is also something we talk about. It’s just a much more difficult problem to solve.

How about An in game Guild Finder ?

really it will help a lot more

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Posted by: Henry.5713

Henry.5713

Raids are the hardest content in the game, and need to stay that way.

In that case, raid will become an obvious scapegoat for a content drought, and if drought will continue at same rate as it was in HoT – a rightful scapegoat. Because there is obviously way too much content for a such little chunk of players who playing it constantly.

Kind of wondering why people keeping using the argument that content needs to be accessible to everyone or be neglected and even be completely abandoned as waste of their resources.
It is completely justifiable to set a small number of people to work on content designed for any minority. They are selling a complete product here and not something to drawn in one type of player only.
Kind of beyond me how there is supposed to be any focus on raids or supposed to be “too” much content for such a small number of players. Just because you feel that way after getting bored with the game doesn’t make it obvious or even true at all.

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Posted by: Sarrs.4831

Sarrs.4831

In that case, raid will become an obvious scapegoat for a content drought, and if drought will continue at same rate as it was in HoT – a rightful scapegoat. Because there is obviously way too much content for a such little chunk of players who playing it constantly.

There is no such thing as a rightful scapegoat. It is a self-contradictory idea. The essence of scapegoating is to unfairly apply blame.

A lack of content released has never been fairly blamed on raids and likely never will be, especially considering the current state of the game in which ANet seems to have gotten their pipeline issues sorted.

Nalhadia – Kaineng

(edited by Sarrs.4831)

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Posted by: OneUP.3024

OneUP.3024

I appretiate your philosophy and that you don’t just listen to the whiners in the community and instead do your thing. But please release the new raid already, half of my guild went inactive already.

Quantify [qT]

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Posted by: Rednik.3809

Rednik.3809

But be honest, you won’t be satisfied until raids are erased from the game because you don’t like them. What i see is one more fractal soon, LS3 new episode soon, etc…

I will be satisfied when content targeting and content distribution will be proportional to the population of said content consumers.

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Posted by: Hypairion.9210

Hypairion.9210

But be honest, you won’t be satisfied until raids are erased from the game because you don’t like them. What i see is one more fractal soon, LS3 new episode soon, etc…

I will be satisfied when content targeting and content distribution will be proportional to the population of said content consumers.

3 wings in one year. that’s all. Too much for you?

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Posted by: Artemis Thuras.8795

Artemis Thuras.8795

Accessibility in terms of “Hey, my 5 man Fractal group wants to try raids, but we can’t find 5 other players!” is also something we talk about. It’s just a much more difficult problem to solve.

This is by FAR the biggest accessibility issue that I’m aware of but I really don’t know how you guys can tackle this when the entire content is 10 players based and the build requirement more restrictive than anything else.

Guild groups is a possible solution, but after going through so many I can tell you its FAR from so easy to get the right one for you and your time frame. People who have a good and stable guild group for raid probably do not realize this.

Anet learnt this lesson in gw1.
Which is why party sizes dropped from 8/12(for max level/end-game content) to 5 for gw2.

Then they regressed.

Co-Leader of The Mythical Dragons [MYTH],
Advocate of learning and being a useful party member.
http://mythdragons.enjin.com/recruitment

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Posted by: runeblade.7514

runeblade.7514

This comes up a lot so I’m going to jump in quickly since it’s a new post.

Tier systems for Raids come up a lot as a result of what Fractals did. I worked on the original Fractals team and a tiered system with increased difficulty scaling was always part of the original plan for that team. It was never a plan for Raids. They are, and should remain, the most difficult content in the game.

Accessibility in terms of difficulty is something we talk a lot about internally. We’ve made efforts to help players get in by delivering entry level encounters that ease you into the content (STK) and you’ll see more of that in the next release. You’ll still see encounters that live up to previous raid expectations for mid tier and final bosses. And if you think Matthias is a chump then we have something for you as well.

Accessibility in terms of “Hey, my 5 man Fractal group wants to try raids, but we can’t find 5 other players!” is also something we talk about. It’s just a much more difficult problem to solve.

Then you can stop discussing about how to make raids accessible internally and externally. You will never find the answer as long as you keep raids requiring a lot of players and a lot of coordination. Your[ANet] efforts to the problem will and has always been nothing but vain.

I spent around 3 months looking for raids non-stop and no one wanted me. I tried every trick in the book, such as going to a guild group, putting up a lfg, joining “everyone welcome”, lying and joining a elitist peepz only, joining chatrooms, whatever. I only manage to finish a raid because I paid for a spot just to unlock the raid masteries. I don’t blame them. They don’t want an inexperienced player in their team.

Your “efforts to help players get in by delivering entry level encounters that ease you into the content” solves nothing towards the issue and that is only the kindest way I can get that message to you crystal clear. There is only one way to improve accessibility; Make raid tiers. Give up that notion that Raids “are, and should remain, the most difficult content in the game.” Otherwise, stop talking about improving accessibility. You cannot have both at the same time.

5x Warrior, 5x Ranger, 4x Elementalist, 4x Engineer,
4x Necromancer, 3x Mesmer, 4x Guardian, 4x Thief, 4 Revenant

(edited by runeblade.7514)

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Posted by: Gilburt.9146

Gilburt.9146

Accessibility in terms of “Hey, my 5 man Fractal group wants to try raids, but we can’t find 5 other players!” is also something we talk about. It’s just a much more difficult problem to solve.

This is a major problem for me and my friends. I would love to do raids, but haven’t done them in months since my raid grouped dissolved out of nowhere.

Brother Gilburt – Guard / Agent Gilburt – Thief

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Posted by: Hornet.6357

Hornet.6357

And if you think Matthias is a chump then we have something for you as well.

Depending on what the “skills” (balance) team decides to do, Matthias goes from being a chump to challenging. In fact, he’s currently head and shoulders harder than every other boss. Only because of those Itty bitty minor necro changes.

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Posted by: Rednik.3809

Rednik.3809

3 wings in one year. that’s all. Too much for you?

Zero dungeons and one fractal vs 3 raid wings? Yeah, I think it is too much one-sided.

Kiijna, Xast, Satis Ironwail, Sekhaina, Shira Forgesparkle, Sfeno, Nasibi, Tegeira, Rhonwe…
25 charracters

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Posted by: DZx.4927

DZx.4927

This comes up a lot so I’m going to jump in quickly since it’s a new post.

Tier systems for Raids come up a lot as a result of what Fractals did. I worked on the original Fractals team and a tiered system with increased difficulty scaling was always part of the original plan for that team. It was never a plan for Raids. They are, and should remain, the most difficult content in the game.

Accessibility in terms of difficulty is something we talk a lot about internally. We’ve made efforts to help players get in by delivering entry level encounters that ease you into the content (STK) and you’ll see more of that in the next release. You’ll still see encounters that live up to previous raid expectations for mid tier and final bosses. And if you think Matthias is a chump then we have something for you as well.

Accessibility in terms of “Hey, my 5 man Fractal group wants to try raids, but we can’t find 5 other players!” is also something we talk about. It’s just a much more difficult problem to solve.

Honestly I think the issue is not so much about the difficulty of the encounter or finding people, but rather the “casual” mentality that permeates the gw2 community. The fact of the matter is, the majority of the people on gw2 aren’t looking for a challenge, they don’t want to spend any effort on learning fights, mechanics or builds or any of that. The majority here want to jump in on something with no preparation or coordination and get out as fast as possible.

For those who say finding 10 ppl to raid is what’s holding you back – have you tried keeping LFG open for 5min? I’ve cleared every boss every week for the past 4 months by joining the first group that poped up doing the boss/wings I needed. I never had to wait longer than a pvp match wait to get a group, even in the deadest hours at night. Now if you have issues working with strangers, that’s a whole different ball game.

People that are referencing fractals as a comparison to raids… the next time you pug fractals, look at the behavior of the players, the vast majority of them have absolutely no clue how to actually use the build they are on and just end up auto-attacking half the time; maybe you are one of these people, and that’s perfectly fine! because everyone is able to clear the highest level fractals regardless. that’s not coincidence, fractals are designed to be able to be completed that way.

That’s exactly what the people that enjoy raids don’t want to see – content that you can clear by people just auto-attacking. There is a specific group of people that enjoy the challenging content that are raids, others just don’t have the taste for it, which is fine. It’s the same as pvp, some people live in it, some won’t go near it. Let Anet make the content and let people choose – and if it’s not your cup of tea, don’t burn down the bridge for those that do enjoy it.

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Posted by: Hypairion.9210

Hypairion.9210

3 wings in one year. that’s all. Too much for you?

Zero dungeons and one fractal vs 3 raid wings? Yeah, I think it is too much one-sided.

And, as you know it, 0 dungeon because no more dungeon team since years now, nothing to do with raids… you forget some fractal revamps, and the difficulty to make difficulty tiers in fractal (in raid, one difficulty, it’s more linear).

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Posted by: Eowin Of Rohan.2619

Eowin Of Rohan.2619

Accessibility in terms of “Hey, my 5 man Fractal group wants to try raids, but we can’t find 5 other players!” is also something we talk about. It’s just a much more difficult problem to solve.

This is a major problem for me and my friends. I would love to do raids, but haven’t done them in months since my raid grouped dissolved out of nowhere.

I have the exact opposite issue. I have fun in raids because I have a nice team composed of 10 players around my level (people who can do mistakes from time to time but good enough to reliably kill bosses). I had fun even before having this team, because going to raid was a time investment, I knew I went there for long training sessions, I knew I was there to not give up, with people who were also there to not give up in case of fail.

But fractals ? No. My raid team doesn’t do fractals. And fractals are not raid : I don’t want to plan ahead, be there at given time, try a lot or whatever. Fractals are where I’d like to play casually, do my daily T4 when coming back from work for example.

But for me it became a pain with latest updates where anet wants to turn fractals into a training room for raids. It just doesn’t work anymore. I simply gave up after quite a few terribad experiences and now don’t play Fractals. Getting a team is not that easy, stuff is too hard to your average pug, people rage easily, ragequit (or even team as 3 bad players and kick those who don’t carry them hard enough), and even if people are willing to try you get a lot of teams who are not very good and end up spending way too much time/too many tries to beat bosses, which is NOT what I expect from fractals. You’d tell me “go t3” but tbh I’m more than capable of beating t4, there are less people in t3, and doing t3 is not what I want.

So please, keep doing nice raid bosses, I really like what you said here about the next wing. But reconsider using t4 fractals as raid training room.

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

Zero dungeons and one fractal vs 3 raid wings? Yeah, I think it is too much one-sided.

The first Raid was part of Heart of Thorns, after release they got guilds to test them, but the content was mostly there.

Since LS3 started we got 2 fractals (the second one is coming on Monday), 3 new PVE maps (third one is coming on Monday) and we still don’t know when the next Raid Wing will be released (December???). If you want to blame someone for not having LS3 sooner (with the new zones and fractals included) take a look at the re-creation of Heart of Thorns content that needed to happen due to complaining. Not Raids.

Try to be around next year around this time and we’ll all compare the lists of fractals/zones/raids available by then.

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Posted by: Rednik.3809

Rednik.3809

And, as you know it, 0 dungeon because no more dungeon team since years now, nothing to do with raids… you forget some fractal revamps, and the difficulty to make difficulty tiers in fractal (in raid, one difficulty, it’s more linear).

Sure, how about swap then? Raids will get only “revamps” for a year, and fractals will get all new content updates with maps, bosses and loot.

Kiijna, Xast, Satis Ironwail, Sekhaina, Shira Forgesparkle, Sfeno, Nasibi, Tegeira, Rhonwe…
25 charracters

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Posted by: Sirbeaumerdier.3740

Sirbeaumerdier.3740

This comes up a lot so I’m going to jump in quickly since it’s a new post.

Tier systems for Raids come up a lot as a result of what Fractals did. I worked on the original Fractals team and a tiered system with increased difficulty scaling was always part of the original plan for that team. It was never a plan for Raids. They are, and should remain, the most difficult content in the game.

Accessibility in terms of difficulty is something we talk a lot about internally. We’ve made efforts to help players get in by delivering entry level encounters that ease you into the content (STK) and you’ll see more of that in the next release. You’ll still see encounters that live up to previous raid expectations for mid tier and final bosses. And if you think Matthias is a chump then we have something for you as well.

Accessibility in terms of “Hey, my 5 man Fractal group wants to try raids, but we can’t find 5 other players!” is also something we talk about. It’s just a much more difficult problem to solve.

Honestly I think the issue is not so much about the difficulty of the encounter or finding people, but rather the “casual” mentality that permeates the gw2 community. The fact of the matter is, the majority of the people on gw2 aren’t looking for a challenge, they don’t want to spend any effort on learning fights, mechanics or builds or any of that. The majority here want to jump in on something with no preparation or coordination and get out as fast as possible.

For those who say finding 10 ppl to raid is what’s holding you back – have you tried keeping LFG open for 5min? I’ve cleared every boss every week for the past 4 months by joining the first group that poped up doing the boss/wings I needed. I never had to wait longer than a pvp match wait to get a group, even in the deadest hours at night. Now if you have issues working with strangers, that’s a whole different ball game.

Believe me, I’ve spent far more than meager 5 min on that every time and my results have been FAR less impressive than yours. I mean, kitten , if I had anything close to what you describe I wouldn’t waste my time bringing it here.

People really have to stop thinking their own little anecdotes matters when it comes to inference. I’m glad for you, really, but what you describe is simply not coming even far from what I experiment. Just be glad instead of trying to paint others in in bad light without even having a clue about them.

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Posted by: Jockum.1385

Jockum.1385

A lack of content released has never been fairly blamed on raids and likely never will be, especially considering the current state of the game in which ANet seems to have gotten their pipeline issues sorted.

I don’t think so. There is a lack of casual PVE group content (not talking about solo content as open world etc.).
Me and my guild are playing one evening a week together and there is nothing for us to do. Dungeons are dead, my guild is too casual for raids (and will ever be) and fractals become boring after some time. Most fractals are afaik from 2012-2013. Reworks are not the same as a new fractal. Also the rewards are the same, there is little incentive to play new fractals often.

Ideally content is like a pyramid. A huge basis for everyone and a small tip of difficult content. GW2 feels like it left out the basis when it comes to group oriented content.
Ember bay is not preparing you to play raids. Dungeons and fractals do, but they are a small fragile plank leading to raids. Instead of the “broad basis” which would be needed.

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Posted by: Amaimon.7823

Amaimon.7823

Its always great to see people going to lengths to make their voice heard, and make it heard the right way. I don’t have much time to respond to it all right now, but I can suggest you copy it to the raid/dungeon/fractal section, you might reach more folk there.

Their suggestion has more or less already been made.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Making-tiers-in-Raids-like-fractals/first#post6356971

I know, I didn’t praise their lack of search skills. Just the fact that was is a structured topic rather than a rant

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Posted by: Kolzi.5928

Kolzi.5928

This comes up a lot so I’m going to jump in quickly since it’s a new post.

Tier systems for Raids come up a lot as a result of what Fractals did. I worked on the original Fractals team and a tiered system with increased difficulty scaling was always part of the original plan for that team. It was never a plan for Raids. They are, and should remain, the most difficult content in the game.

Accessibility in terms of difficulty is something we talk a lot about internally. We’ve made efforts to help players get in by delivering entry level encounters that ease you into the content (STK) and you’ll see more of that in the next release. You’ll still see encounters that live up to previous raid expectations for mid tier and final bosses. And if you think Matthias is a chump then we have something for you as well.

Accessibility in terms of “Hey, my 5 man Fractal group wants to try raids, but we can’t find 5 other players!” is also something we talk about. It’s just a much more difficult problem to solve.

Hey Ms (Mrs?) Reid, just wanna say first off I’m a big fan of your work, I really like the gw2 raids and I’m looking forward to more.

You talk here about how you have intro-style encounters like STK (I assume that is Siege The Keep). I totally agree that the game should have them, I actually thought Vale Guardian was overtuned not because I found it difficult but I felt that as the first raid boss, it should serve as an introduction to how raiding works as a whole. Mechanically, it does that fantastically, it just feels a bit much for a first time group to me.

Anyway I wanted to pitch in a little on this. Clearly the easiest encounters right now are the bandit trio and siege the stronghold. I’ve no problem with the design of these encounters, nor with having encounters of this level of difficulty (as long as it’s not the only level of difficulty!). I do however think that perhaps the fights that are supposed to serve as introductions to raiding should take a more traditional boss approach rather than these kinda out-there designs. Something more akin to Gorseval, Sabetha, Keep Construct or Vale Guardian just tuned to be easier and more forgiving seems like it would be a much better introduction to raiding to me (and preferably it should be the first boss so it’s easy to access). I just don’t think there is a whole lot you can take away from an encounter like Siege The Stronghold that you can then apply to Gorseval, beyond perhaps the general concept of having specific role in a fight.

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Posted by: Ohoni.6057

Ohoni.6057

This comes up a lot so I’m going to jump in quickly since it’s a new post.

Tier systems for Raids come up a lot as a result of what Fractals did. I worked on the original Fractals team and a tiered system with increased difficulty scaling was always part of the original plan for that team. It was never a plan for Raids. They are, and should remain, the most difficult content in the game.

Accessibility in terms of difficulty is something we talk a lot about internally. We’ve made efforts to help players get in by delivering entry level encounters that ease you into the content (STK) and you’ll see more of that in the next release. You’ll still see encounters that live up to previous raid expectations for mid tier and final bosses. And if you think Matthias is a chump then we have something for you as well.

Accessibility in terms of “Hey, my 5 man Fractal group wants to try raids, but we can’t find 5 other players!” is also something we talk about. It’s just a much more difficult problem to solve.

All we need is some sort of easier versions of the existing raids, so that players that like the idea of the existing raids, but do not like the challenge level, will still be able to play and have fun with the content. The hard mode raiding is just not everyone’s cup of tea, and yet so much of the new stuff is locked behind it, like lore, environments, legendary weapons, and the ability to do anything with XP in Maguuma maps.

“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”

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Posted by: Lakemine.3014

Lakemine.3014

This comes up a lot so I’m going to jump in quickly since it’s a new post.

Tier systems for Raids come up a lot as a result of what Fractals did. I worked on the original Fractals team and a tiered system with increased difficulty scaling was always part of the original plan for that team. It was never a plan for Raids. They are, and should remain, the most difficult content in the game.

Accessibility in terms of difficulty is something we talk a lot about internally. We’ve made efforts to help players get in by delivering entry level encounters that ease you into the content (STK) and you’ll see more of that in the next release. You’ll still see encounters that live up to previous raid expectations for mid tier and final bosses. And if you think Matthias is a chump then we have something for you as well.

Accessibility in terms of “Hey, my 5 man Fractal group wants to try raids, but we can’t find 5 other players!” is also something we talk about. It’s just a much more difficult problem to solve.

All we need is some sort of easier versions of the existing raids, so that players that like the idea of the existing raids, but do not like the challenge level, will still be able to play and have fun with the content. The hard mode raiding is just not everyone’s cup of tea, and yet so much of the new stuff is locked behind it, like lore, environments, legendary weapons, and the ability to do anything with XP in Maguuma maps.

I both agree and disagree. Also this is coming from someone who only has 14 LI. If (and its a IF not a when or maybe) they do add a easier mode version of it (which I’m still kinda not ok with, but hey it could happen) it should give the same rewards as what the current raids give now. Maybe no LI or you can only get one from each boss per month? Also less mag shards.

And this is coming from a player who is ALWAYS complaining about how expensive ascended gear is, and has problems in dungeons (rarely do them, hate them because spending 6 hours in AC p1 is beyond stupid) and fractals. But I have 150 AR (took forever and still hate that system but w/e anet’s game) and do t4 fractals when I few of my guildys are on that I know know how to do them. PuGing t4 after 5 days in a row with spending 2 hours on each one? Didn’t like them anymore. Same thing with raids. For me at least I really dislike that storyline (ok fine I know its not really connected to a over arching storyline, but its still lore and I like that part) is locked behind doing them, or paying others. (which the only ones I have found want 100g per boss (and like I said I complain about ascended being to expensive because I’m poor and only make about 5g each day, 7 if I do t4 fracatals)

But…..I know there are many, maybe not a great number, but many people love this content and even though I have the gutter dirt end of the luck with groups, doesn’t mean they do. And they like it. Me? I really don’t like raids and only doing them here and there for the AP and rewards. Trying to work a VERY specific build where you screw up ONE move and get yelled at and then kicked? Kinda stupid and makes gaming less fun. But I know other people like that game style, and…..let them have it.

TL DR; If they add a easy mode, it doesn’t give the same rewards (not even just less, ie: none or different ones) and its just there for lore, storyline and learning for the people who don’t want to do harder content but can still do the storyline.

P.S. Even with all my bashing of raids (I dislike them) I know other people like them, so let them have them. Heck I want character slots to be less to get 49 more character slots.

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Posted by: Sykper.6583

Sykper.6583

“so that players that like the idea of the existing raids, but do not like the challenge level”

If they like the idea of existing raids, they should not hate the challenge level. Your statement in of itself is a contradiction.

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