Guild Wars 2

A dev has come in to basically disregard what more and more people want (not less and less). Anet seems incapable of seeing the problems of people who want those levels of difficulty or just don’t want to accept them. People felt empowered by that dev’s remark and used it as a tool to attack people who want something to change instead of trying to understand why they want that change.

It’s a gap that will widen. I was in LA 10 min ago doing my daily..people were already having mapchat """discussions""" about what the dev said..it got ugly for absolutely no reason at all.

ANet’s official reluctance to introduce a system that they themselves said WORKED (for fractals) in raids…is questionable on many levels…especially considering other mmos have similar systems that proved it brings players together instead of dividing them.

Besides…even more raids? The abundance of pvp/wvw/normalpve content is so overwhelming that they found resources to throw on even more raids? (but this depends on when they add those raids….even so it concerns me)

@Sykper define reason. As for your AMA link, we are talking about a game that is almost 10 times GW2 (stacked at the same time), from an active community POV…and raids are 50% of the game. I think that fail brought them more succes, then what some consider GW2’s epic raid win system. Do you feel epic in GW2? If yes, what makes you feel epic?

Rebound.3409:

A dev has come in to basically disregard what more and more people want (not less and less). Anet seems incapable of seeing the problems of people who want those levels of difficulty or just don’t want to accept them. People felt empowered by that dev’s remark and used it as a tool to attack people who want something to change instead of trying to understand why they want that change.

Devs know what the players want. Devs disagree with implementing the changes, they see a problem with what the players suggest here, and other players agree with the devs. What we don’t need to do is double their work load by implementing another difficulty level that will need to be tuned and bug fixed, after all it’s is not something as simple as adjusting a number.

We know exactly why you want the change, and we are telling you that the change you suggest for raiding will shatter it into a million pieces.

Rebound.3409:

It’s a gap that will widen. I was in LA 10 min ago doing my daily..people were already having mapchat """discussions""" about what the dev said..it got ugly for absolutely no reason at all.

It got ugly because it’s controversial. The content isn’t meant for the general populace, and only those who get their act together and go into it expecting to practice and spend a lot of time failing, can eventually succeed.

A lot of people just want to press 1. Hell, people still refuse to jump over Mouth of Mordremoth’s head slam shockwaves, platforms nearly get wiped, but because that’s not a mechanic that will wipe the whole map, they won’t ever try to learn to jump. That’s a mentality Raids do not appreciate.

Rebound.3409:

ANet’s official reluctance to introduce a system that they themselves said WORKED (for fractals) in raids…is questionable on many levels…especially considering other mmos have similar systems that proved it brings players together instead of dividing them.

Fractals were built around the scale, and the infrastructure for Fractals is an entirely different beast. Raids are built for the sole purpose, according to Crystal, of being the hardest content at all times. And as I showed in the link, ‘Similar’ systems implemented in WoW killed Raiding as it existed. There was no community, you didn’t care for the people you dynamically queued with to kill some inconsequential raid boss. Everyone was just another number to you.

‘Similar’ systems brought players together the absolute wrong way.

Rebound.3409:

Besides…even more raids? The abundance of pvp/wvw/normalpve content is so overwhelming that they found resources to throw on even more raids? (but this depends on when they add those raids….even so it concerns me)

When you got a small dedicated team for raids, you can get stuff done. It’s a new territory and they are given enough time and windows between wings to keep to a schedule.

Ohoni.6057:

They already have all the tools they need to copy/paste the raid, then tweak the bosses down slightly

Crystal I’ll give you 100g if you please, once and for all, debunk this ridiculous notion that you guys can crt+c/crt+v anything in game and magically create working content in no time flat.

Pretty please?

Ah, the “raids are the root of all evil”-card.

First of all, I don’t see “more and more people” asking for raids. I see the same people here in this forum complaining and not accepting that their ideas are bad in almost all cases. Besides that there are some folks joining here and there raising their voice.
Still, there is no meaningful group picking up torches and pitchforks and demonstrating against raids.

Second,

“Besides…even more raids? The abundance of pvp/wvw/normalpve content is so overwhelming that they found resources to throw on even more raids? (but this depends on when they add those raids….even so it concerns me)”

this statement and the connections between are not correct. The late release of content after HoT release was due to a massive complaint about the grind factor and the difficulty of the HoT maps. So they had to revamp everything. No wonder why we had to wait such a long time for new open world content. The raid team has to deal with a linear instanced content – easier to develop, smaller and with only a few enemies with few newer mechanics.
Also, WvW has always been an issue and I can’t remember any superspecial decision that has resurrected this game mode since its peaks. Even here, raids have nothing to do with that. I could be mistaken here but I am more than convinced that PvP and WvW teams have 0,0% direct connection to the development of open world stuff.

Rebound.3409:

9/10 players don’t even consider raiding because of toxicity, all mmos have that, but this one actually encourages it.

Even though we have raids, the toxicity level is way smaller than during dungeon prime time. The time I was raiding I only met very few groups with toxic attitude. I have to add it wasn’t the group but distinct players inside. You have these bad apples in every game mode. Heck, I read more toxic things while being at Cursed Shore and Silver Wastes than inside any raid group at all.

Rebound.3409:

Have a system that actually has players. I am sorry but as a random, sitting in LFG sometimes for hours to find a group and when u do find a group, disband after 1 whipe or something and then having to invest even MORE dead time is not ok.

Next card: The “No-Effort-” or “I don’t take responsibility”-card.
If you really don’t find a group which is interesting because there are many groups demanding for players if you don’t focus on the night which is obvious because ppl sleeping, go open your own lfg.
This has been the same thing since dungeon prime time. People complaining, complaining and complaining but no one ever opened an own group. It’s a mentality I cannot accept, like “the game has to offer me this and that” and be a servant to me. Sorry, it doesn’t work like that. If you have social issues or you are not a leader, fine, but don’t blame the game. Yes, I’m tired myself after being the leader at work but still I opened lfgs and most often people came in and took over because they had good ideas, were in a good mood or have been commanding before and realized that this group needs a lead since nobody was willing to do it.

Rebound.3409:

“Go find a raiding group/guild” is not for everyone and should never come down to that.

System was installed for organized groups before release. It was no miracle or lucky bag. We got what has been announced.

Rebound.3409:

The system that is now implemented has no where near the number of active raid players necessary to maintain it at a healthy rate.

And sure, you have a proof for that. No? Ok, then you believe what you have to and raiders continue raiding.

Rebound.3409:

@Skyper no, a lot of people don’t want to just press 1. That’s the first and main major mistake everyone defending this system hides behind and a source for most of the rage between these 2 communities. People want 2 “core” things:

The ‘Press 1’ is a hyperbolic argument, we mean that the general populace wants rewards at the lowest possible effort imaginable. It is precisely why we get the weekly ‘Legendary Weapons should be easier to get!’ threads. But sure, let’s see what you think the two ‘core’ things people want.

Rebound.3409:

1. Not have a system that seems extremely volatile especially from a language pov. (9/10 players don’t even consider raiding because of toxicity, all mmos have that, but this one actually encourages it)

Extremely volatile system? Are you saying that LFG is the problem here? You do realize Arenanet has no say over what groups request in there right? I believe why LFG is working as intended right now is because it gives just enough tools for the playerbase to get groups for what they need. Toxicity is not being generated by Arenanet here, the entire playerbase is responsible for what they create with the LFG platform, and that is an entirely different discussion all together.

Rebound.3409:

2. Have a system that actually has players. I am sorry but as a random, sitting in LFG sometimes for hours to find a group and when u do find a group, disband after 1 whipe or something and then having to invest even MORE dead time is not ok.

I find hyperbole amusing as much as the next guy, but that’s a bit much there. All of your complaints aren’t a ‘Raid’ issue, they are a ‘Player’ issue. I don’t even sit in the queue, or look for the groups for too long each day, my time is precious and if I don’t raid one day, whoopie do, I do something else. I believe that patience is another trait you need to have if you want to raid successfully, I don’t do full clears weekly, yet I am well over halfway to my LIs, knowing full well I have time to get the rest of them before Legendary Armor hits. Why is there so much pressure to get a raid right now?

Rebound.3409:

“Go find a raiding group/guild” is not for everyone and should never come down to that. The system that is now implemented has no where near the number of active raid players necessary to maintain it at a healthy rate.

Raids were originally marketed for coordinated groups, they were not really meant to be puggable. If anything did fail for raids, it was the fact that they were easy enough for pugs to do. But Arenanet right now feels really good about how Forsaken Thicket did, so they will likely keep pugs in mind, making the system work for even the solo raiders.

Raids as implemented were never a good fit for GW2, they are obviously balkanizing the community. Easymode raids with bad rewards (obviously, raid level skill should be rewarded still) would be a great way for people to experience the story elements even if they can’t invest the time or lack the skill to do current difficulty raids. It works for fractals, it works for dungeons, it can work fine for raids too. It’s a balance between the extreme elitism of the current raids and the total casual mentality pervading Central Tyria. It bridges the gap.

Not an encouraging sign that the devs would resist something like that.

For people that complain they want to unlock the raid mastery so they are able to get spirit shards again, just do escort and you unlock it.
Even a 5years old can do escort, no reason for anyone in this game to not be able to unlock the raid masteries.
Only excuses excuses excuses…

Hmm, for you it seems so easy, but if it were the case, don’t you think devs aldready would have done that? but no, they come with another solution. If you don’t like it, it’s your right, but just get over it, really. Moreover, you also have another problem, wanting raid loot in easy mode, unlike some defenders of easy mode raids.

I’ll keep working for the version of the raids that I would enjoy, until they happen. Just because you wipe a few times doesn’t mean you should give up, right?

f you want the rewards that T4 fractals give you have to do T4 fractals. and T4 fractals do have unique rewards.

There is already precedent for content having unique rewards that if you do not like an aspect of the game but want the reward that comes with it, you have to choose which evil you deal with: not having that reward or playing the aspect of the game that you don’t like for as long as it takes to get the reward.

Precedent is not justification. Just because something has been done, doesn’t mean that it should be done in future. I would prefer to not have to choose between the lesser of two evils, and I will continue to push for the game to recognize that.

Gift of Battle requires playing WvW long enough to finish up the required WvW Reward Track for it. There are easier dailies that help with small little items that boost progress, but you still have to play WvW.

Endless Fractal Tonic requires playing Fractals to get as it’s account bound on acquire.

Gift of Exploration requires playing Open World PvE to get it.

Yes, and each of those is something that could be changed to improve the game. Their existence does not preclude making positive changes elsewhere, nor is there any reason why those things would have to be changed first before other changes get made.

So if sometime in the distant future (it’s obvious by the post here that it’s not something that they currently plan on adding at all), it should not offer all of the rewards that the hardest tier Raids offer. Which I would say would exclude the legendary item at minimum. LI would be debatable depending on how they did it.

Why?

Much like Fractals were designed to be shorter dungeons for those who can’t spend a couple of hours trying to figure out a dungeon, mini-raids would be the equivalent.

In their original implementation, Fractals were the long dungeons. The actual dungeons were the shorter versions. It took several years for Fractals to become the short version.

hat way full raids keep their exclusive skin and those who don’t want to do full raids can get the same stat swapping ability and a unique skin of their own.

I don’t want stat-swapping armor and the “unique” skin might not be as good as the raid one. The raid skin is the goal here, not just “any Legendary.” To offer “some other Legendary armor” is not a compromise position.

Crystal I’ll give you 100g if you please, once and for all, debunk this ridiculous notion that you guys can crt+c/crt+v anything in game and magically create working content in no time flat.

Pretty please?

What would lead you to believe that they can’t? Note that I did include that they would have to manually balance the bosses’ stats, but basically the entire environment would be identical, copy/paste. All the lore stuff would be identical, copy/paste. All the models, animations, audio, visual effects would be identical, copy/paste. And then you have the stats, which presumably are stored in some sort of table, so you just go through the table, and you delete a few zeroes here and there. Maybe you take one listing that has an affix “automatically defeats players,” and you replace it with “deals X amount of damage.” It would take some time, but it would take far less time and far fewer developers (since most of them would have no role at all to play in the process) than building the raid from scratch.

Assic.2746:

We got here a clear info from a dev stating: “No tiered difficulties for raids” so just get over it.

Well, if they are so set against tiered difficulties, and yet already can see that accessibility is a problem, then eventually, when they’ll realize that the “easier encounter in a harder raid” approach satisfies neither group and doesn’t help at all, they will go for the other solution. Just plain nerf the content.
Which will be fine as well.

Sykper.6583:

Just step away Vince, some folks aren’t willing to listen to reason.

They also blatantly want to ignore the ramifications of the ‘success’ stories you hear from other MMOs doing things the ‘right way’ I guess.

https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/52fxo1/ama_league_design_lead_greg_ghostcrawler_street/d7jwm98/?st=ivocegs2&sh=c80d5a04

Oh whoops, I dropped something. My bad.

Addressed that in another thread. In short, in my opinion you significantly misread the reasons behind that statement. It’s not really a condemnation of LFR design that you want it to be.

Sykper.6583:

But Arenanet right now feels really good about how Forsaken Thicket did

Surely that’s why they think about increasing accessibility. Because they felt that everything was fine.

Astralporing.1957:

Assic.2746:

We got here a clear info from a dev stating: “No tiered difficulties for raids” so just get over it.

Well, if they are so set against tiered difficulties, and yet already can see that accessibility is a problem, then eventually, when they’ll realize that the “easier encounter in a harder raid” approach satisfies neither group and doesn’t help at all, they will go for the other solution. Just plain nerf the content.
Which will be fine as well.

If the other solution is yours and ohoni’s, i prefer 100x the dev solution. Yours will just destroy raid. At least, having an easy encounter will induce more people to try, train, and maybe succeed. So after, they can decide either to train for the next bosses, or just stay with the easy boss and have some raid rewards, with is fine as well.

But if you prefer raid to be nerfed, argurment for it. I’m sure devs will disagree with you, just like the easy mode raid you’re fighting for.

Astralporing.1957:

Addressed that in another thread. In short, in my opinion you significantly misread the reasons behind that statement. It’s not really a condemnation of LFR design that you want it to be.

I’ve already responded.

Astralporing.1957:

Surely that’s why they think about increasing accessibility. Because they felt that everything was fine.

You mean the transition from 5 man fractals to 10 man raids? There’s a room for improvement there, absolutely. That’s likely their only focus in terms of accessibility.

Blaeys.3102:

maddoctor.2738:

Blaeys.3102:

The balance issue will never go away (unless the balance team basically guts all professions and makes them play the same – which would be bad).

That’s not true. The reason we have this problem is because before HoT and before the elite specs there were no requirements for actual roles in the game, outside of PVP. In PVP there were always roles, there wasn’t just one bunker, there wasn’t only one roamer. When you used to make a PVP team you didn’t say “I want a D/D Elementalist” but rather “I want a Bunker”. You could get a shoutbow bunker Warrior, a Guardian bunker, the above mentioned D/D Ele Bunker and I’m probably forgetting some bunker choices of the good old times.

Now that we do have roles in PVE it’s up to the balance team to allow multiple builds to have the same role. You are afraid that they will play the same, but I can assure you that all those bunker builds played completely differently although they had the same role. Is it unrealistic to ask for something similar in PVE?

As an aside, I would actually love to see some of the systems they use to balance PvP brought into raids – most specifically, the gear system where everyone is given access to all top tier gear options from the start – using the same interchangeable amulet, rune and sigil system. Take the gearing piece out of the equation completely – giving everyone access to all of it from day one (maybe with a few select unlockables just like we see in current PvP).

That way someone doesn’t spend weeks building a set of Tizlak’s (commander’s) gear only to see balance shift and find themselves needing something completely different (that is just a hypothetical – please don’t fixate on that example). It would also make it easier for them to actually balance raids.

It would definitely go a long way toward solving the “bring the player, not the build” issue.

Dang…..I REALLY like this idea. Course I know all or most of the raiders people would balk at it and whine and cry and say its not good but….are you not doing what the non raiders are doing atm?

Course the other reason I like it is because I have issues with gearing above exotic. Exotic is BEYOND easy for me to get, in fact I think I have like 20 full armor exotic sets sitting my banks for characters I have yet to make, but ascended? I only have 3 pieces…..(armor) total. That’s it, it costs WAY to much and they made it more expensive. And just another reason why I like pvp over pve and wvw, no stupid gear grinds, I just make a new character, hop in and BOOM win. Unlike in pve and wvw.

Sadly, it seems to me (could be wrong so correct me if I am) but most (not all) MMOers (people who just play MMOs, and jump around between them because the content they want is not there) don’t care about accessibility for other people. They want the hard and long gear grind and don’t care if it takes ALOT longer for other people to get what they have. “Boo hoo sucks be you that’s how the game is made.” seems to be the overall answer I or other people I see who ask similar questions.

I understand that those people like that content……I hate it, takes to long and to expensive and I’m a alt-er and gearing up each one is a pain and not fun.

Maybe if we got a official response from the devs on what this game is? Is is a gear grind fest? or a casual MMO? or Both? I like dev responses as it clarifies things (Most of the time but idk :P)

Miellyn.6847:

Blaeys.3102:

It would definitely go a long way toward solving the “bring the player, not the build” issue.

There is no “bring the player, not the build” issue. Guild Wars was always about the builds you are bringing. Build Wars anyone?

If everything works without any build requirements it only creates bland bosses where every boss feels the same. Things like reflect at Matthias are needed for interesting encounters.

Elite specializations are supposed to fill roles a class didn’t have before it got introduced so this problem will leave after some time.

Remind me again about the reflect? (Only got matt to 32% once and that was 6 weeks ago) Does that mean that you the players have to reflect his attacks? or you stop attacking because he has a reflect? If the former, not all classes have reflects, which means some classes are locked out. If the latter, then whats the issue with bring a different build? just don’t 1 away like a afk moron and your fine.

Sooooo……..thief healer should be the next elite spec for thief right? RIGHT!?!? :P

Actually that Blaeys post about implementing the build system from SPvP into raids directly is a different take on accessibility. I don’t really have an argument against it, if I had to guess the only negative aspect, it would be from a game economy standpoint, if you can just get the runes and armor for free, the market will feel it.

But…it does promote bringing the player, there would be more builds and strategies new raiders could try out in their raid to make it work…

I think I am ok with the SPvP gear system for Raiding in place, it removes that excuse from those who say it takes a lot of time to get the build right. Sadly though, even if this were implemented I get the feeling some folks would still complain about it.

If the other solution is yours and ohoni’s, i prefer 100x the dev solution. Yours will just destroy raid. At least, having an easy encounter will induce more people to try, train, and maybe succeed. So after, they can decide either to train for the next bosses, or just stay with the easy boss and have some raid rewards, with is fine as well.

But you’re describing EXACTLY what I’m asking for. You have the easier version, you can use that to train and move on to the harder version, or you can stick with the easier version, up to you.

Hypairion.9210:

Blaeys.3102:

Hypairion.9210:

i guess you and I didn’t read the same thing…It’s just clearly stated by a raid dev team that what you want IS NOT POSSIBLE.

That is not what was said at all. She said it was not part of the original plan for raids. The thing is – plans can change (and is sort of why these kind of conversations are so important – for everyone to advocate why they think they should or shoudnt). In fact, they have commented in the past that raids weren’t planned for when the game came out – and that plan changed. You adapt based on the community. That in no way implies that it isn’t possible (or even that plans have to remain the same forever and always).

To the second point she made – that raids should be the hardest content in the game – I think most people agree with that. That doesn’t mean they cannot be more than that however. We see it clearly in other games – people have talked extensively about how it could happen in GW2.

Tier systems for Raids come up a lot as a result of what Fractals did. I worked on the original Fractals team and a tiered system with increased difficulty scaling was always part of the original plan for that team. It was never a plan for Raids. They are, and should remain, the most difficult content in the game.

sorry but when i read that, for me it means that raid tier difficulty like fractals won’t happen, because raid were not developped with that in mind. They’re going to put easy boss at the beggenning of the raid so that more people can go into raid and beat one boss (VG problem maybe).

Kraggy.4169:

Crystal Reid.2481:

It was never a plan for Raids. They are, and should remain, the most difficult content in the game.

In that case STOP PUTTING CORE STORY content in a part of the game designed to pander solely to the small elite minority!

there is no core story into raid. You enter, you beat some bosses, and if you want you read some books.

Your right, sorry if I have said about “easy mode” raids, the devs said its not going to happen. Which makes sense. Adding easier bosses to the beginning I think is a better idea.

Also…..its not “core” storyline, but it is a storyline none the less, which is where I think ALOT of people are miffed about it. (could be wrong and its because they can’t get the legendary armor kitten easy but at least for me the big issue I have with raids is the storyline locked behind it, heck I still havnt seen it all because I have yet to down matt and Xera) So……maybe having like a storyline instance or one of the video things that recaps things, like the lady in LA who recaps season 1 for you. (Though I still don’t like it, it is there.)

Ohoni.6057:

If the other solution is yours and ohoni’s, i prefer 100x the dev solution. Yours will just destroy raid. At least, having an easy encounter will induce more people to try, train, and maybe succeed. So after, they can decide either to train for the next bosses, or just stay with the easy boss and have some raid rewards, with is fine as well.

But you’re describing EXACTLY what I’m asking for. You have the easier version, you can use that to train and move on to the harder version, or you can stick with the easier version, up to you.

Oh nice, so you agree with devs then? because i’m talking about their solution, first easy encounter, then 2 encounters challenging. No need to make an easy mode raid with that, which is fine. i’m not talking at all about easier version of the entire raid ^^ just a boss easier among the 3 boss of the wing.

Sykper.6583:

Actually that Blaeys post about implementing the build system from SPvP into raids directly is a different take on accessibility. I don’t really have an argument against it, if I had to guess the only negative aspect, it would be from a game economy standpoint, if you can just get the runes and armor for free, the market will feel it.

But…it does promote bringing the player, there would be more builds and strategies new raiders could try out in their raid to make it work…

I think I am ok with the SPvP gear system for Raiding in place, it removes that excuse from those who say it takes a lot of time to get the build right. Sadly though, even if this were implemented I get the feeling some folks would still complain about it.

Yep. There will be people who complain no matter what. The thing to see is who the devs listen too, or who the majority is. I didn’t play before April 2014 when they removed gearing for pvp, started in may of 2014, but I had come from SWTOR, where gear is required for pvp, and it took a LONG time to get the gear for it, and there were ALWAYS people cursing you out because you didn’t have the gear.

Here in GW2, I LOVED that there was no gear requirement for pvp, then its based on your skill as a player, to learn your class, the other classes, the pros and cons of each class, the rotation of maps, when to fight and +1 and when to run and decap ect ect ect. I LOVE it. And I think adding that to raids would work, because then there isn’t a “You cant come because your gear stinks, sucks w/e.” Then its about people learning the fights, learning your class and spec and role, and doing it. And if you make a mistake, then your learning, or for the kitten headed <insert negative words that shant be repeated> who don’t want to learn, you can find them and kick them promptly and get someone else easier because you don’t have to look for someone with specific gear, just someone who knows the fights and the role you need.

Anet I hope your reading, its a good idea! Please mull over it and talk internally, and give us a answer ya or na, and the reasons behind making such a decision. Personally for me, I LOVE hearing the reasons behind why choices are made by you guys/gals. (Even if I don’t agree with them. Leers at Think Leather Sections)

Ohoni.6057:

If the other solution is yours and ohoni’s, i prefer 100x the dev solution. Yours will just destroy raid. At least, having an easy encounter will induce more people to try, train, and maybe succeed. So after, they can decide either to train for the next bosses, or just stay with the easy boss and have some raid rewards, with is fine as well.

But you’re describing EXACTLY what I’m asking for. You have the easier version, you can use that to train and move on to the harder version, or you can stick with the easier version, up to you.

Ok….just to be clear and to clarify for communications sake……..are you wanting a easier mode of ALL bosses (current and future) or the easier bosses at the beginning of the raid, and harder ones later, so you can train on the easier ones and then make the choice to go on to harder ones, or just do the easier ones week after week?

Sykper.6583:

Actually that Blaeys post about implementing the build system from SPvP into raids directly is a different take on accessibility. I don’t really have an argument against it, if I had to guess the only negative aspect, it would be from a game economy standpoint, if you can just get the runes and armor for free, the market will feel it.

But…it does promote bringing the player, there would be more builds and strategies new raiders could try out in their raid to make it work…

I think I am ok with the SPvP gear system for Raiding in place, it removes that excuse from those who say it takes a lot of time to get the build right. Sadly though, even if this were implemented I get the feeling some folks would still complain about it.

Thank you. I know we fundamentally disagree on most of the issues raised here. I appreciate the willingness to look past that for some things we can actually agree on (and I appreciate how hard it can be to do that – I struggle with the same myself).

The problem with my suggestion would actually be two fold – the first and biggest being exactly what you said – the potential impact on the economy. The second would be the inevitable backlash from people who have already invested heavily in raiding gear – which I can definitely relate to (I’m one of the ones that spent hundreds of gold on the sigil of concentration for my chronotank months ago when prices were much higher).

That said, I think the idea still has merit and, even though I would continue to advocate for tiered difficulty for other reasons, I would welcome it as meeting half way – and I think it would fix some of the organizational and balance issues plaguing raids right now.

Though I think the sPvP gear system is good and can work for raids, I dont see it implemented. The games economy will be effected to hard that.. That said I dont think it will have any effect on the forum complaints either.

You can already raid fine in exo. And its not that hard to get exo armor/weapons.

Seera.5916:

Gift of Battle requires playing WvW long enough to finish up the required WvW Reward Track for it. There are easier dailies that help with small little items that boost progress, but you still have to play WvW.

lulz. Not really.

Your right, sorry if I have said about “easy mode” raids, the devs said its not going to happen. Which makes sense. Adding easier bosses to the beginning I think is a better idea.

Why? If the early bosses are easier and the later harder, then for players who only enjoy the easier stuff, they are still forever excluded from the harder bosses. Meanwhile, the hardcore players have fewer bosses they would be engaged by, since the easier bosses would likely be “too easy” to entertain them. Why wouldn’t it be better for all involved if there were a version of EVERY boss that the easy players could enjoy, AND a version of EVERY boss that would satisfy the hardcores?

Also…..its not “core” storyline, but it is a storyline none the less, which is where I think ALOT of people are miffed about it.

And having only easy bosses at the beginning of a raid wing would still not allow the easy players to complete the story of the raid. It would be like only getting the first chapter of a book, and then the following chapters are all in some entirely different language.

Oh nice, so you agree with devs then? because i’m talking about their solution, first easy encounter, then 2 encounters challenging. No need to make an easy mode raid with that, which is fine. i’m not talking at all about easier version of the entire raid ^^ just a boss easier among the 3 boss of the wing.

No, that would be pointless, but what you were saying, have an easier version of the raid for those that prefer that, and the, for those that want something harder, a harder version. As you said, “At least, having an easy encounter will induce more people to try, train, and maybe succeed. So after, they can decide either to train for the next bosses, or just stay with the easy boss and have some raid rewards, with is fine as well.”

Ok….just to be clear and to clarify for communications sake……..are you wanting a easier mode of ALL bosses (current and future) or the easier bosses at the beginning of the raid, and harder ones later, so you can train on the easier ones and then make the choice to go on to harder ones, or just do the easier ones week after week?

Having easier bosses at the beginning of the encounter does not “train” you for later encounters, because the later encounters would have entirely different mechanics. It’d be like taking a math class to get better for your history test. The encounters need to be the same, only easier.

The problem with my suggestion would actually be two fold – the first and biggest being exactly what you said – the potential impact on the economy. The second would be the inevitable backlash from people who have already invested heavily in raiding gear – which I can definitely relate to (I’m one of the ones that spent hundreds of gold on the sigil of concentration for my chronotank months ago when prices were much higher).

The thing is, you can’t hold the future hostage to economic mistakes made earlier. I mean, I lost a few thousands by holding onto my Chain Greatsaw skin until after they started increasing their availability a bit, which caused the TP price to plummet, but that doesn’t mean that I thought they should never have made the skin more available to people. If people spent a fortune on gearing up months ago, then they got months of good use out of that gear, and that’s their compensation. They have no expectation that the prices on that gear would never come down. Whenever they get around to fixing the Leather prices, things will get much cheaper, but that doesn’t mean people making armor right now have justification in being upset that the prices got fixed.

MashMash.1645:

Seera.5916:

Gift of Battle requires playing WvW long enough to finish up the required WvW Reward Track for it. There are easier dailies that help with small little items that boost progress, but you still have to play WvW.

lulz. Not really.

Being facetious doesn’t help your case here.

I wouldn’t mind an easy mode if the rewards were cut down to exotics etc. No li’s,no magnetite shards, no asc drops, no achievements. Just same gold and the usual exotics/rares/loot bags.
Then the “easy mode” would actually serve as a true training mode. The people who ask for easy mode + actual rewards are usually the lazy ones who just want freebie kills.

Have said it before and will repeat, RAids do not need to be made easy. They are fine as they are. The PROBLEM is getting into them. As long as we have the exclusion of classes its gonna suck, period. In most MMO’s, all classes can dps, be it a mage, a rogue a warrior or a monk. Now some classes are better suited for certain roles, i.e. tanks, heals, etc. but EVERY class is viable as a dps role. A Fire Mage can dps just as well as an Elemental Shaman, played and geared right. Not so in the this game, and that’s what sucks as it makes people not want your class for raids.
So no, please no “easy mode” for the raids, it will kill them all together. Just fix the classes and the meta only mentality and we all be laughin!

Oh nice, so you agree with devs then? because i’m talking about their solution, first easy encounter, then 2 encounters challenging. No need to make an easy mode raid with that, which is fine. i’m not talking at all about easier version of the entire raid ^^ just a boss easier among the 3 boss of the wing.

No, that would be pointless, but what you were saying, have an easier version of the raid for those that prefer that, and the, for those that want something harder, a harder version. As you said, “At least, having an easy encounter will induce more people to try, train, and maybe succeed. So after, they can decide either to train for the next bosses, or just stay with the easy boss and have some raid rewards, with is fine as well.”

Pls, stop that, i never said i was into easier raid, i said encounter, which is not the same. For your information, a raid is formed by several encounters.
Plus, i was talking about the dev solution. I’m totally against your idea about easier raid from the begenning on the subject, but you seemed to agree with dev about easier encounter.
That’s fine, because that is what will happen.

Having easier bosses at the beginning of the encounter does not “train” you for later encounters, because the later encounters would have entirely different mechanics. It’d be like taking a math class to get better for your history test. The encounters need to be the same, only easier.

Wrong. Even if some mechanics are different, you can train your dps rotation, your quickness rotation, how to dodge, how to fight as a 10 man team. All of these are usefull, against any boss. Easy encounter at the beggening means also more motivation. As you’ve said, if you read chapter 1 and you like it, you want to read other chapters… If you don’t like what you read, or are not interested, you can stop. But at least, you have something, which is better than nothing.

zoomborg.9462:

I wouldn’t mind an easy mode if the rewards were cut down to exotics etc. No li’s,no magnetite shards, no asc drops, no achievements. Just same gold and the usual exotics/rares/loot bags.
Then the “easy mode” would actually serve as a true training mode. The people who ask for easy mode + actual rewards are usually the lazy ones who just want freebie kills.

I would be fine with that either (rewards cut down, just logical). Luckily, the kind of greedy people wanting easy raids + normal raid loots is rather rare…

So first tier would be current one? I’d like that c:

Hypairion.9210:

Oh nice, so you agree with devs then? because i’m talking about their solution, first easy encounter, then 2 encounters challenging.

They have already tried that. Didn’t seem to help much. Players that felt they are excluded from Raids still feel the same, and Raiders are saying those encounters are too easy. In the end, noone is satisfied. Not even devs, since (from the dev post) they are still working on ways to increase accesibility.
In time, the number of raiders playing those encounters is only going to decrease, so sooner or later Anet will either completely abandon the design, or will need to use some more drastic means of oppening accessibility. And if they are not going to make an easy mode now, they will be only left with one option – nerf.
That’s pretty much consistent with all their past history as well.

Pls, stop that, i never said i was into easier raid, i said encounter, which is not the same. For your information, a raid is formed by several encounters.

Ok, fair enough, if you did not mean what you said, that’s ok, but can we at least agree that the premise remains the same, that it would be good to have an easier raid for those that have no interest in the harder one, or for players in the middle to train off of?

Wrong. Even if some mechanics are different, you can train your dps rotation, your quickness rotation, how to dodge, how to fight as a 10 man team

No, that really doesn’t work. You need to train the actual mechanics of the encounter. Training against Vale Guardian does nothing to train you for Gorseval. Even less would the Wing 3 escort train you for Vale Guardian.

As you’ve said, if you read chapter 1 and you like it, you want to read other chapters… If you don’t like what you read, or are not interested, you can stop. But at least, you have something, which is better than nothing.

But again, if you go in knowing that the first chapter is as far as you’re likely to be able to read because the rest of it is in Sanskrit, then that just makes it all the more frustrating that someone won’t just release a translated version that you can read.

Ohoni.6057:

TL DR; If they add a easy mode, it doesn’t give the same rewards (not even just less, ie: none or different ones) and its just there for lore, storyline and learning for the people who don’t want to do harder content but can still do the storyline.

It should offer the same type of reward, just less of it, so that players who do easy mode would need to make more repetitions to achieve the same results as someone on hard mode. People who actively enjoy hard mode should have absolutely no reason to NOT play hard mode, because they will get a higher return on their time investment by doing so, but players that do not enjoy hard mode would not be completely locked out of anything either.

If they like the idea of existing raids, they should not hate the challenge level. Your statement in of itself is a contradiction.

Not as I said it, that’s why I coupled those two statements. It’s like saying “I enjoy this spicy chicken sandwich, but it’s too spicy for me.” What that means is “the other elements that make up this sandwich are things that I enjoy, but the spice is ruining it for me. A version with less spice would be awesome.”

So I believe that there are plenty of players, myself obviously included, who would enjoy a type of content that includes all elements of the raid that are NOT about challenge. This would include the setting, the specific boss encounters, all that, just toned down in risk so that the results are less likely to lead to a wipe if mistakes are made. I understand that this is not the experience you want, and that’s fine, because you already have your version, but I have trouble believing that you cannot even comprehend the sort of version I am describing. I mean, if someone came to me and said “I’d like to see a Shadow Behemoth encounter, only much more challenging,” I could easily picture numerous ways to make that happen, even if it’s not necessarily something I’d want to play myself.

Except I enjoy absolutely having to clear a difficult challenge to obtain cool rewards. An opt out like easy mode as you describe it would destroy my value. You might not want the same or you might not agree, however you must accept this what I like and what used to be missing in gw2 for me. And guess what ? I am the target audience for raids and you are not.

Joxer.6024:

Have said it before and will repeat, RAids do not need to be made easy. They are fine as they are. The PROBLEM is getting into them. As long as we have the exclusion of classes its gonna suck, period. In most MMO’s, all classes can dps, be it a mage, a rogue a warrior or a monk. Now some classes are better suited for certain roles, i.e. tanks, heals, etc. but EVERY class is viable as a dps role. A Fire Mage can dps just as well as an Elemental Shaman, played and geared right. Not so in the this game, and that’s what sucks as it makes people not want your class for raids.
So no, please no “easy mode” for the raids, it will kill them all together. Just fix the classes and the meta only mentality and we all be laughin!

Yep. No easy mode for raids.

But I’m calling it……next thief elite spec is a healer….a shadow healer! dunh dunh dunh!

But yeah, that is one thing keeping me out of raids mostly is I really only know how to play thief dps and have him geared. Every other class, has random exotics on and not meta geared, so cant bring them if the group needs another role. Maybe I just need to play them and learn the rotations from metabattle, but still…..stupid gear requirements…..yuck I hate gear grinds. But I think that is a good idea to think about and explore, is changing the meta and letting all classes be viable at all the roles needed (though like I said, thief heals? really? doesn’t make sense…….“From the shadows…..” nevermind) would open up availability for raids, without even having to change the bosses or damage numbers, (Which they have already said they are not going to do) or adding that pvp set up idea to raids, I mean they removed gear from pvp…..who is to say they can’t from raids? (Course I’m selfish and REALLY want this idea to go through, as I could almost couldn’t care less about the economy as most everything needed to make endgame anything is to high priced anyways.)

DutchRiders.2871

Except I enjoy absolutely having to clear a difficult challenge to obtain cool rewards. An opt out like easy mode as you describe it would destroy my value. You might not want the same or you might not agree, however you must accept this what I like and what used to be missing in gw2 for me. And guess what ? I am the target audience for raids and you are not.

BAM!……….mic drop.

And this:
“But yeah, that is one thing keeping me out of raids mostly is I really only know how to play thief dps and have him geared. Every other class, has random exotics on and not meta geared, so cant bring them if the group needs another role. "

That’s where a lot of us are so making raids stupid easy wouldn’t fix anything other than ruining them completely.
Thief heals…..hmmm, I can see it!

Hey DutchRiders? I’m like that too…..to a extent. I mean getting Migrane when I thought I NEVER would and after 4 failed tries because people gave up after 1 wipe? was AWESOME and AMAZING. But for raids, maybe one thing that, maybe I’m at fault for, is clearing VG now a few times, its easy for me, and trying and failing 8 times in a row and wasting 3 gold worth of food and only getting 1 gold back for beating the boss is kinda stupid, lame and not fun at all. Same reason I rarely do t4 fractals and dungeons. I have cleared them all in record time. I know some paths take 5-10 minutes, but after spending 6 hours in AC p1 and switching out 15 different people? I have next to no interest of EVER doing them again, but for the last 68 more runs I need for the AP, and then NEVER again. Same with fractals. After I get all the AP and rewards form them, not even the gold from them can get me to do them again with people who cant do them.

Hence why I wait till some people I know who CAN do them are on and I run them then, but when they are not on I tried looking for other people, and maybe it was the time of day or other things, but I couldn’t find any who were both not <insert negative words that shall remain in the void> and can do the content without wasting 2-3 hours. Its either they are nice but really can’t do much more then t2 maybe t3 fractals and that’s IF they have the AR (gosh I hate that system) or maybe some dungeons. or they are beyond rude and I have to suffer them to get the reward? Not a fun gaming experience. (Mind you I know there are both kind and talented people, I just have the gutter end of luck when finding them.)

So I like completing hard things, but once I done them…..I don’t want to waste the same 6 hours it took for people to learn VG EACH WEEK, to get the kill and you need min 150 LI, and if it takes 6 hours for VG forget any of the other bosses. (though maybe escort, so maybe it would be cut in half.)

I’m kinda in the middle of the road most offen with conversations like these because I understand both sides and like aspects of both sides. Heck I still want the Gift of Fortune removed or at least the t6 mat requirement removed. But….that’s not going to happen anytime soon, so if I want it, I have to “work” for it…..kinda werid being a game but w/e.

P.S. I know this is kinda off the subject, but I find it REALLY funny when I’m complaining about legendarys in general chat and I ask the question “So if they removed and ONLY removed the Gift of Fortune, then it would NOT be a legendary anymore?” EVERYONE shuts up and NEVER gives a answer. rofl I LOVE stumping people and they have no recourse. rofl (smacks himself in the head, yeah I know I’m a bad boy, but hey…….at least I made someone laugh somewhere…..I hope…….)

Joxer.6024:

DutchRiders.2871

Except I enjoy absolutely having to clear a difficult challenge to obtain cool rewards. An opt out like easy mode as you describe it would destroy my value. You might not want the same or you might not agree, however you must accept this what I like and what used to be missing in gw2 for me. And guess what ? I am the target audience for raids and you are not.

BAM!……….mic drop.

And this:
“But yeah, that is one thing keeping me out of raids mostly is I really only know how to play thief dps and have him geared. Every other class, has random exotics on and not meta geared, so cant bring them if the group needs another role. "

That’s where a lot of us are so making raids stupid easy wouldn’t fix anything other than ruining them completely.
Thief heals…..hmmm, I can see it!

You heal with the venoms and backstab them to heal! healy knives! ;D looks at the Anet devs looking for any sign of betraying its incoming

Here is my take on Raids. I have done a few of them but the time requirement in finding enough players, making sure everyone is on a profession that is needed and if needed teaching them mechanics. That alone is a huge investment and its just something I don’t want and avoid.

I spend most of my time in Fractals and there is a reason for that. The newer ones provide a very good challenge and its very easy to get into and attempt them. Be it with new players or vets and learning them in a 5 man group is more lenient and relaxed. There is a reason why WoW added Looking For Raid. A huge portion of the game found it too cumbersome/time consuming to do them. Then the moment LFR was added it became much more accessible for all of the population. It was probably one of the biggest changes the game made that kept a huge portion of the game.

The reason why GW2 has a divided response with raids is simple. GW2 at its core is a pick up and play casual game. Any player can go hardcore but in terms of difficulty the game didn’t have it. A lot of players started asking for harder open world events and slowly Anet added some(Marionette, Tower of Nightmares).

Then some people started tossing around the idea of Raids with them being for large groups since the game has always been around community. Then the moment it was found out that raids were 10 man is the moment the elitest mindset came back. And true to its nature that is why we now have this huge divide.

One side will say raids are content for the hardcore and keeps them playing and others will say raids are content that a huge portion of the game isn’t doing so its wasted dev time. My take on it is this: I did not start playing GW2 with raids in mind. I know a lot of us came here cause Anet was going to do MMO’s there way and not the traditional way and I was down with that. Then they add raids how they have been in every other game and with that all the problems/issues they inherently have. They did not put there own take on it with the community in mind. So now we have this huge divide that is not going to go away anytime soon.

Final thoughts: I like the idea of harder encounters. If raids could scale to 5 man I would dive hard into them and enjoy them. They would be more appealing at that point cause it wouldn’t be a chore or a hassle. I imagine a lot of players would also start doing them if they were 5 man.

The problem we have is Anet doesn’t think long term with anything they add. How many groups will stop doing the older raids when new ones come out? How will new players even attempt them when so many groups already refuse them? This problem is only going to get worse and its really sad. If they designed raids from the start with scaling in mind it would be content that is accessible to a huge portion of the game and that’s how ALL content should be. But they did not do that so we’re stuck with what we have.

Except I enjoy absolutely having to clear a difficult challenge to obtain cool rewards.

And you will be able to continue doing that, so no harm done. If you meant to say “I enjoy getting better rewards than players who I view as my lessers,” then I’m sorry, that would be going away, but to be fair, that’s a pretty jerky position to take in the first place.

And guess what ? I am the target audience for raids and you are not.

And who cares? GW2 is a total package, ten GW2 players who are not in the target audience for raids are worth more than nine GW2 players who are the target of raids. If more GW2 players are upset about raids not meeting their expectations, then even if they are not part of the “target audience” of the raid, their stance has value.

Zetsuei.8942:

Here is my take on Raids. I have done a few of them but the time requirement in finding enough players, making sure everyone is on a profession that is needed and if needed teaching them mechanics. That alone is a huge investment and its just something I don’t want and avoid.

I spend most of my time in Fractals and there is a reason for that. The newer ones provide a very good challenge and its very easy to get into and attempt them. Be it with new players or vets and learning them in a 5 man group is more lenient and relaxed. There is a reason why WoW added Looking For Raid. A huge portion of the game found it too cumbersome/time consuming to do them. Then the moment LFR was added it became much more accessible for all of the population. It was probably one of the biggest changes the game made that kept a huge portion of the game.

The reason why GW2 has a divided response with raids is simple. GW2 at its core is a pick up and play casual game. Any player can go hardcore but in terms of difficulty the game didn’t have it. A lot of players started asking for harder open world events and slowly Anet added some(Marionette, Tower of Nightmares).

Then some people started tossing around the idea of Raids with them being for large groups since the game has always been around community. Then the moment it was found out that raids were 10 man is the moment the elitest mindset came back. And true to its nature that is why we now have this huge divide.

One side will say raids are content for the hardcore and keeps them playing and others will say raids are content that a huge portion of the game isn’t doing so its wasted dev time. My take on it is this: I did not start playing GW2 with raids in mind. I know a lot of us came here cause Anet was going to do MMO’s there way and not the traditional way and I was down with that. Then they add raids how they have been in every other game and with that all the problems/issues they inherently have. They did not put there own take on it with the community in mind. So now we have this huge divide that is not going to go away anytime soon.

Final thoughts: I like the idea of harder encounters. If raids could scale to 5 man I would dive hard into them and enjoy them. They would be more appealing at that point cause it wouldn’t be a chore or a hassle. I imagine a lot of players would also start doing them if they were 5 man.

The problem we have is Anet doesn’t think long term with anything they add. How many groups will stop doing the older raids when new ones come out? How will new players even attempt them when so many groups already refuse them? This problem is only going to get worse and its really sad. If they designed raids from the start with scaling in mind it would be content that is accessible to a huge portion of the game and that’s how ALL content should be. But they did not do that so we’re stuck with what we have.

I could be wrong….but I don’t think Anet doesn’t plan ahead. I mean we all make mistakes so who knows, but they might in the future nerf the current 3 wings when the next 3 come out. Just like they nerfed Orr (was not here for it so can’t from personal experience) or HoT maps. Takes a bit of time, and yes I know its been a year since the first win was released but…..Orr and HoT are open pve maps, and there are ALOT more open world pve maps then raids. So maybe just wait a bit to see if they nerf it? (Though with what the devs have said, most likely not, but you never know.)

Ohoni.6057:

Except I enjoy absolutely having to clear a difficult challenge to obtain cool rewards.

And you will be able to continue doing that, so no harm done. If you meant to say “I enjoy getting better rewards than players who I view as my lessers,” then I’m sorry, that would be going away, but to be fair, that’s a pretty jerky position to take in the first place.

And guess what ? I am the target audience for raids and you are not.

And who cares? GW2 is a total package, ten GW2 players who are not in the target audience for raids are worth more than nine GW2 players who are the target of raids. If more GW2 players are upset about raids not meeting their expectations, then even if they are not part of the “target audience” of the raid, their stance has value.

True, that all opinions matter,(ok fine MOST there are some that…..yeah they are just flat out wrong, thanks stupid internet for giving EVERYONE voices -_-) but in the end, Anet is the company who is making the game, and they have dicisions to make in EVERYTHING, sometimes you can’t have both ways (even if the devs themselves want it both ways) and choices have to me made. And guess what? 100% of the gamer base of your game are NOT going to agree with it.

Heck, I know people who LOVE that the think leather sections shot through the roof and got to be more expensive then ecto. Me? I HATE IT. Making ascended more expensive then what it was already (and it was, played for 2 years and only made 2 ascended pieces, took 5 months for the first one and 4 for the 2nd one.) was a bad mistake imo. But its their game, you can give a opinion on it, and they WILL listen to you (as long as your respectful and don’t break any rules……shoot I think I have broken rules…..shadow steps away and dodges to freedom in the dark coldness of night) but that does not mean they will change it to what you want.

I want ascended to be cheaper, legndarys to not have the Gift of Fortune and character slot prices to be less so I can buy 49 more. Does my opinion matter? Yep. Does Anet ignore me? No. (well maybe because I’m a idiot in more then one personality but that’s not the point.) Will Anet change to fit me and not anyone elses counter opinion? They have the right to choose, because its their game and their vision for the game, not yours. (To the first two nope, the third…..man I hope they are reading this and do another sale or more offen) Though…….they do like taking player feedback, which is the most I have ever seen in the many games I have played. Keep up the good work Anet!

Also I need to say I’m sorry for comparing t4 fractals and raids. Because even though kitten fractals, the fractals themselves might be the “same” t2 onward, add extra mechanics to the fights, and also instabilities. And raids are not built that way, fractals are. And like many people on here have said (even the devs), trying to make a “easy mode” would require removing or changing mechanics. ie: can’t be done.

So for all the people complaining about…….sadly….you have a choice to make. Either do the research on the many many many MANY things you need to do in order to do them to get the rewards you want. Or leave it and be content in not having them.

Like I REALLY want Nightfury and the Snow shoulders, but I don’t have 2000 gold to get Nightfury (ok fine it might be less gold now, but still……I see no difference between 2000 and 1300 gold still to much) and the snow shoulder skin I did all the required AP BUT for that stupid 10k drinks, still only on 3500ish, because I didn’t have 600-800 gold to buy all the wintersday boxes to get the required drinks. (Imo, it should have been 3k or 5k, then I would be ok with it but not 10 freaking k, all of the other required things wernt that hard nor expensive and it took about 2 weeks for it all, which I think is a good benchmark.)

But forget my rambling, point is the people who want “easy mode” your not going to get it…..AT ALL….the devs said so. So you have a choice to make, either be happy in what you can do ingame atm and be content with not getting the shinys. Or do your homework and get into a raiding static group or PuG groups. (Which btw, even I hate that aspect of it, because I don’t trust any other players but myself or a few others, but kinda can’t 2 man every raid boss :P) But the sad part is, and you NEED to realize this (and a official dev response would be good, but doubtful considering what I’m going to type) is that no matter what you do, what gear you put on, no amount of time practicing your rotation, watching vids on boss kills and doing said boss kills, you cant carry 9 other people, and they WILL let you down.

So understand that going in (if you choose to go after said rewards) sometimes you win and don’t waste time, other times (my experience has shown most offen) its a waste of time with very little reward if any. Just changing your mindset can work wonders.

And like many people on here have said (even the devs), trying to make a “easy mode” would require removing or changing mechanics. ie: can’t be done.

There’s nothing that makes it impossible. It’s all just changing the effect that procs when an attack lands. Everything before and after that remain the same. Somewhere in Vale Guardian’s database, there is a value labeled the equivalent of “green circle” This is summoned at a certain interval. When it activates, it deals damage equivalent to a number listed in a slot. if you remove a zero from that number, it deals 10x less damage. All the actual mechanics of the fight can be retained, all they need to do is tweak the outcomes of 5-10 different effects over the course of each boss fight to be slightly weaker than they currently are.

But forget my rambling, point is the people who want “easy mode” your not going to get it…..AT ALL….the devs said so. So you have a choice to make, either be happy in what you can do ingame atm and be content with not getting the shinys.

Nope, I’m going to keep trying, thanks though.

But forget my rambling, point is the people who want “easy mode” your not going to get it…..AT ALL….the devs said so. So you have a choice to make, either be happy in what you can do ingame atm and be content with not getting the shinys.

I will never be of the mindset that could view the “wasted time” outcome as anything at all positive, or even the “win” outcome as positive if it required multiple “wasted time” outcomes to get there. I know that about myself going in, which is why I’m pushing for a version where “wasted time” is not an option, and ALL player time is considered precious.

I’m going to respond to points made chronologically, if unfinished to not judge yet

Sykper.6583:

What we don’t need to do is double their work load by implementing another difficulty level that will need to be tuned and bug fixed, after all it’s is not something as simple as adjusting a number.

There’s no need to adjust numbers, not like you’re thinking. The majority of ppl asking for easy mode raids are just that, clueless or casual to semi-hardcore players who want raids scaled down to dungeon lvl that is manageable. I don’t agree with their view and I don’t think they will ever consider that

I proposed what I thot as middle-ground solution in earlier thread that got locked. Not gonna go into it here, but basically u know how in arah u can solo lupi even tho it’s been designed for 5man and hasn’t been scaled down at all? That’s the general idea. Players should take 2-3 hrs to learn mechanics of boss when solo mode and mayb even longer to solo kill it (exp as sole reward). So idea is not to dumb it down, keep it challenging and players on their toes but they will be able to get exp, without finding a group, which atm takes a long time since ur waiting for 9 other randoms to help u learn.

A lot of people just want to press 1. Hell, people still refuse to jump over Mouth of Mordremoth’s head slam shockwaves, platforms nearly get wiped, but because that’s not a mechanic that will wipe the whole map, they won’t ever try to learn to jump. That’s a mentality Raids do not appreciate.

I’m not sure why ur using this example, it’s riddled with holes. I’m not even sure what ur saying is even possible, and I’ve maxed my mastery lvl and halfway to getting thos leadership runes. There’s other options u can use too, u can either use invuln when u learn his tell or right before he even does it u can jump off and stay airborne for a short while, then land after he withdraws. Just saying, ur only listing one among many ways to survive it and were not even sure yours is the ‘right’ way or what was intended. U can come up with better example in place of this

Fractals were built around the scale, and the infrastructure for Fractals is an entirely different beast. Raids are built for the sole purpose, according to Crystal, of being the hardest content at all times.

It’s not merely difficulty that’s the problem. There some difficult champs in open world that near impossible to solo, but nothing to say it can’t be done. In dungeons as well, when faced with diff content u could always solo or under-man them if needed. Raids is not merely difficult, they force u to rely disproportionately on ur group. With pugs or with randoms, this is especially disastrous. You could get up to 6 other exp ppl besides urself who have 250+ li and still fail to kill boss.

With raids it’s the “every chain in the link must be perfect or near-perfect” mentality. This is what leads to so much problem with pugs, it only takes 2-3 wild cards in the grp who keep messing up or dying and it’s enough to debunk any hopes of success and make ppl ragequit or even disband grp.

Be honest, if u never pug then just say that u don’t understand. And not count those grps with LI reqs either, that’s not what u call a normal grp that every one can join. If there was a way that could solve this problem that newcomers unable to get into raids, and the pros all discriminating against non-exp, wouldn’t u want to? What if it lead to less ppl lying about their exp or LI and joining grps which actually discourages most from pugging , thus it would increase player turnout in pugs and lead to less stress and shorter kill times, thus less stigma about raids and higher accessibility? Thus everyone (who pugs) is happy

Ohoni.6057:

And like many people on here have said (even the devs), trying to make a “easy mode” would require removing or changing mechanics. ie: can’t be done.

There’s nothing that makes it impossible. It’s all just changing the effect that procs when an attack lands. Everything before and after that remain the same. Somewhere in Vale Guardian’s database, there is a value labeled the equivalent of “green circle” This is summoned at a certain interval. When it activates, it deals damage equivalent to a number listed in a slot. if you remove a zero from that number, it deals 10x less damage. All the actual mechanics of the fight can be retained, all they need to do is tweak the outcomes of 5-10 different effects over the course of each boss fight to be slightly weaker than they currently are.

But forget my rambling, point is the people who want “easy mode” your not going to get it…..AT ALL….the devs said so. So you have a choice to make, either be happy in what you can do ingame atm and be content with not getting the shinys.

Nope, I’m going to keep trying, thanks though.

But forget my rambling, point is the people who want “easy mode” your not going to get it…..AT ALL….the devs said so. So you have a choice to make, either be happy in what you can do ingame atm and be content with not getting the shinys.

I will never be of the mindset that could view the “wasted time” outcome as anything at all positive, or even the “win” outcome as positive if it required multiple “wasted time” outcomes to get there. I know that about myself going in, which is why I’m pushing for a version where “wasted time” is not an option, and ALL player time is considered precious.

Oh I would LOVE it if there wasn’t “wasted time” anymore but….the only way to do that, is make everything soloable. Because as long as there is content that requires more then 2-3 people, it will ALWAYS be “wasted time” if 6 hours later your still in AC p1. Because of people trolling, being morons, playing stupid (I do this all the time) or not knowing a fight or not even WANTING to learn the fight. That’s the DNA of what group content is. You can’t change it, without changing the DNA of it.

Heck I LOVED the Mordy fight at the end of HoT storyline, my lil brother (yeah I know he beat me to it) said it was really hard and it took him 2 1/2 hours to solo it but he liked it, so I got there and saw TONS of people just sitting there in front of the instance doing nothing but asking for groups and help for it. And I said NO I AM SOLOING THIS. So a 1 1/2 hours later, BOOM I beat it and LOVED IT. And I solo it each time on each character I take through, and love it each time. And guess what? there are still people sitting there in front of the boss instance looking for groups because they cant solo it. Heck I had to help some guildys with it, and even the Tiami’s holo fight in LS3 Ep2.

Point is, to make it so there isn’t ANY “wasted time” you have to make it solo mode, which I don’t agree with it for raids. (even if I want it also for the storyline on each character) But even then, there are still many (not a lot but still there are many) who cant even do the main storyline missions solo and need help. Zhaitan, Hot, Mordy, LS2 and LS3 ect ect. (Not saying all, because I know most of my guildys did it no prob, but still….for every 5-10 that passed it, there was one asking for help) So…….what plan do we have left?

Btw Ohoni has the best signature ever.
I bet he’s got 250+ li at this point.

nagr.1593:

I’m going to respond to points made chronologically, if unfinished to not judge yet

Sykper.6583:

What we don’t need to do is double their work load by implementing another difficulty level that will need to be tuned and bug fixed, after all it’s is not something as simple as adjusting a number.

There’s no need to adjust numbers, not like you’re thinking. The majority of ppl asking for easy mode raids are just that, clueless or casual to semi-hardcore players who want raids scaled down to dungeon lvl that is manageable. I don’t agree with their view and I don’t think they will ever consider that

I proposed what I thot as middle-ground solution in earlier thread that got locked. Not gonna go into it here, but basically u know how in arah u can solo lupi even tho it’s been designed for 5man and hasn’t been scaled down at all? That’s the general idea. Players should take 2-3 hrs to learn mechanics of boss when solo mode and mayb even longer to solo kill it (exp as sole reward). So idea is not to dumb it down, keep it challenging and players on their toes but they will be able to get exp, without finding a group, which atm takes a long time since ur waiting for 9 other randoms to help u learn.

A lot of people just want to press 1. Hell, people still refuse to jump over Mouth of Mordremoth’s head slam shockwaves, platforms nearly get wiped, but because that’s not a mechanic that will wipe the whole map, they won’t ever try to learn to jump. That’s a mentality Raids do not appreciate.

I’m not sure why ur using this example, it’s riddled with holes. I’m not even sure what ur saying is even possible, and I’ve maxed my mastery lvl and halfway to getting thos leadership runes. There’s other options u can use too, u can either use invuln when u learn his tell or right before he even does it u can jump off and stay airborne for a short while, then land after he withdraws. Just saying, ur only listing one among many ways to survive it and were not even sure yours is the ‘right’ way or what was intended. U can come up with better example in place of this

Fractals were built around the scale, and the infrastructure for Fractals is an entirely different beast. Raids are built for the sole purpose, according to Crystal, of being the hardest content at all times.

It’s not merely difficulty that’s the problem. There some difficult champs in open world that near impossible to solo, but nothing to say it can’t be done. In dungeons as well, when faced with diff content u could always solo or under-man them if needed. Raids is not merely difficult, they force u to rely disproportionately on ur group. With pugs or with randoms, this is especially disastrous. You could get up to 6 other exp ppl besides urself who have 250+ li and still fail to kill boss.

With raids it’s the “every chain in the link must be perfect or near-perfect” mentality. This is what leads to so much problem with pugs, it only takes 2-3 wild cards in the grp who keep messing up or dying and it’s enough to debunk any hopes of success and make ppl ragequit or even disband grp.

Be honest, if u never pug then just say that u don’t understand. And not count those grps with LI reqs either, that’s not what u call a normal grp that every one can join. If there was a way that could solve this problem that newcomers unable to get into raids, and the pros all discriminating against non-exp, wouldn’t u want to? What if it lead to less ppl lying about their exp or LI and joining grps which actually discourages most from pugging , thus it would increase player turnout in pugs and lead to less stress and shorter kill times, thus less stigma about raids and higher accessibility? Thus everyone (who pugs) is happy

TT or Shatterer (I hate that fight now because next to no one does CC anymore) or TD King of the Jungle meta. Even with mechanics that one shot and fail the event, people still wont learn. Mind you, you can still get them down…..but you either have to be part of the guild leading it or get lucky in about 20s they post the LFG, because your stuck and sucks be you, you just wasted a hour sitting and waiting for the LFG to post.

DutchRiders.2871:

Ohoni.6057:

TL DR; If they add a easy mode, it doesn’t give the same rewards (not even just less, ie: none or different ones) and its just there for lore, storyline and learning for the people who don’t want to do harder content but can still do the storyline.

It should offer the same type of reward, just less of it, so that players who do easy mode would need to make more repetitions to achieve the same results as someone on hard mode. People who actively enjoy hard mode should have absolutely no reason to NOT play hard mode, because they will get a higher return on their time investment by doing so, but players that do not enjoy hard mode would not be completely locked out of anything either.

If they like the idea of existing raids, they should not hate the challenge level. Your statement in of itself is a contradiction.

Not as I said it, that’s why I coupled those two statements. It’s like saying “I enjoy this spicy chicken sandwich, but it’s too spicy for me.” What that means is “the other elements that make up this sandwich are things that I enjoy, but the spice is ruining it for me. A version with less spice would be awesome.”

So I believe that there are plenty of players, myself obviously included, who would enjoy a type of content that includes all elements of the raid that are NOT about challenge. This would include the setting, the specific boss encounters, all that, just toned down in risk so that the results are less likely to lead to a wipe if mistakes are made. I understand that this is not the experience you want, and that’s fine, because you already have your version, but I have trouble believing that you cannot even comprehend the sort of version I am describing. I mean, if someone came to me and said “I’d like to see a Shadow Behemoth encounter, only much more challenging,” I could easily picture numerous ways to make that happen, even if it’s not necessarily something I’d want to play myself.

Except I enjoy absolutely having to clear a difficult challenge to obtain cool rewards. An opt out like easy mode as you describe it would destroy my value. You might not want the same or you might not agree, however you must accept this what I like and what used to be missing in gw2 for me. And guess what ? I am the target audience for raids and you are not.

Very well put.

Ok…..Ohoni.6057, what is it about raids that you cant do? You have mentioned over and over and over and over how you want them dumbed down, for you, so YOU can get easy rewards. Sounds a bit one-sided and cheeky to me. That’s like going to school, wanting to be in grade 12 and get your diploma as a 7th grader.
But I miss what you are really on about, other than easy loots. SO what is it that is stopping you from raids, or is it that they are just to hard, for you, as a player?
I have stated my problem, with the exclusion part of it, so what’s yours mate? Just curious as to your point you are trying to make, post after post.

Vinceman.4572:

Rebound.3409:

Have a system that actually has players. I am sorry but as a random, sitting in LFG sometimes for hours to find a group and when u do find a group, disband after 1 whipe or something and then having to invest even MORE dead time is not ok.

Next card: The “No-Effort-” or “I don’t take responsibility”-card.
If you really don’t find a group which is interesting because there are many groups demanding for players if you don’t focus on the night which is obvious because ppl sleeping, go open your own lfg.
This has been the same thing since dungeon prime time. People complaining, complaining and complaining but no one ever opened an own group. It’s a mentality I cannot accept, like “the game has to offer me this and that” and be a servant to me. Sorry, it doesn’t work like that. If you have social issues or you are not a leader, fine, but don’t blame the game.

Your not making as strong an argument as u think. The common answer to this is ‘make ur own LFG?’ but have u any repeated trials of this to really prove ur point? I challenge u to post throughout diff times of day, morning, afternoon, whatever and see how long it takes grp to fill. An exp group for sloth today (two days before reset) take more than hour to go and when I came back I saw they were still at 5/10. That’s not to even mention those grps where u find 6/10, then everyone disbands cos there’s no leader or tag in group. You should not be forced to spend 300g to prevent this from happening. It’s unrealistic. Just like u would expect everyone in TS to use mics. U obviously don’t have enough experience in this to actually expect ppl to take ur word for it.

Why not make it more interesting and ask only for absurd LI reqs. See how much longer it takes for grp to fill, before u or anyone else accuse him of hyperbole. It is it really hyperbole in truth? I don’t think so

Vinceman.4572:

Rebound.3409:

The system that is now implemented has no where near the number of active raid players necessary to maintain it at a healthy rate.

And sure, you have a proof for that. No? Ok, then you believe what you have to and raiders continue raiding.

And do u have proof of this otherwise? Something that doesn’t apply to niche times or primetime when most players are raiding, like first few days after reset or right around daily reset or so? If you don’t have definitive proof of this that doesn’t only apply to a slice of a week where raiders are most active, then don’t state otherwise. For instance, I’ve noticed an increasing dearth of exp and willing raiders as weekly reset approaches, and especially around early morning times. What u might feel as truth might not as such to everyone, thus not the complete truth

Ohoni.6057:

Except I enjoy absolutely having to clear a difficult challenge to obtain cool rewards.

And you will be able to continue doing that, so no harm done. If you meant to say “I enjoy getting better rewards than players who I view as my lessers,” then I’m sorry, that would be going away, but to be fair, that’s a pretty jerky position to take in the first place.

And guess what ? I am the target audience for raids and you are not.

And who cares? GW2 is a total package, ten GW2 players who are not in the target audience for raids are worth more than nine GW2 players who are the target of raids. If more GW2 players are upset about raids not meeting their expectations, then even if they are not part of the “target audience” of the raid, their stance has value.

The game is not a total package, it is a collection of dozens of bits and pieces, and each has a target audience. Sometimes, the audience is ‘everyone’ and sometimes it’s not. PvP leagues isn’t even aimed at every PvP player, for example. Even dungeons aren’t meant to appeal to all PvE players.

It really doesn’t matter how many non-raiders aren’t getting their expectations met by raids; they aren’t the target audience. It does matter how many non-raiders aren’t having their expectations met outside of raids — and I think that would be a better place to direct your suggestions.

Pretend that ANet is never going to add tiers to raids (even if they did, it would take a year or so to implement probably). What would you like to see ANet do in the rest of the game?

You don’t want to make an easy mode raid that’s your choice, but know that you are splitting the community even further. And that will get worse once the legendary armor is dropped.

I’m gonna be really kittened when the legendary armor gets released and it will be acquirable in a small portion of single game mode (pve). Most of the legendaries added so far have been easily accessible to all players. Even PvP and Fractal backpieces are way more readily accessible than raids legendaries.

I have already been slapped in the face as you guys released raids content while neglecting LS3 for about an entire year after purchasing HoT. I definitely won’t be buying the new expansion until this whole fiasco is fixed. I hope pro raid players are enough to pay your bills and fill your coffers.

I would sit on the sidelines and hope for the best but I know how that went during the first 3 years after the game released. It was rework after rework around a circle that led to nowhere but disappointment.

Ok I said what i had to say. GL.