Guild Wars 2

Linken.6345:

maddoctor.2738:

Linken.6345:

Why do it matter to you, if people want easier mode that take longer to earn the same stuff you get in normal?

Take a look:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Envoy_Armor_I:_Experimental_Armor

It rewards a full ascended armor set with stats of your choice. Filling the collection if the bosses were T1 fractal difficulty would take approximately ~20 minutes, maybe less.

20 minutes for a full Ascended armor set with stats of your choice. For every player in the game. Why run anything else in the game? Especially anything that is higher difficulty than T1 fractals, like maybe T3/4 Fractals?

This isn’t hurting just Raids, it hurts the entire game.

Wouldent that be perfect now the people who have run the easy mode raid know the encounters and on top of it got the gear needed to run normal raids. Win win

except you’re fine with exotic armor in normal raid ^^ (unless you’re pugging but that’s another story)

nagr.1593:

There’s no need to adjust numbers, not like you’re thinking… <snip>

Mkay…what do you got?

nagr.1593:

I proposed what I thot as middle-ground solution in earlier thread that got locked… <snip>

Let’s pretend that Solo Mode exists, that we have to redesign the encounters in a separate instance that make it still very challenging but in this case, players can go in and do the mechanics on their own.

Think about it just a bit, about all the mechanics that will have to be changed in this separate solo instance Forsaken Thicket. I could be a bit overwhelming and list them all, but how about this: Becoming a Slubling on Slothasor to clear mushrooms. Pray tell, how do you think the re-envisioned Solo Slothasor encounter will go? Could it even be done without breaking something?

Point being, the kind of work we would likely see from this is completely different encounters than the original version.

nagr.1593:

I’m not sure why ur using this example, it’s riddled with holes… <snip>

The head stomping into the ground creating the very familiar Shockwaves we first saw from Molten Alliance? Except Mouth of Mordremoth’s does an lethal amount?

Yes, there are multiple ways, you could invuln, get off the platform, etc. When people were learning about the shockwaves years ago, people were jumping over them, especially during the Molten Boss encounter we all can do now in Fractals. In T4 Molten Berserker’s waves are too painful to just tank.

I use the example here because despite players seeing this mechanic all the time, unless it directly will cause them to lose something they won’t try to learn it or even worse, they know of it, they just don’t care enough.

If you want players to care about doing mechanics right, you need to make it so they can’t get the rewards if they fail at the mechanics. …Oh, that’s Raiding.

nagr.1593:

It’s not merely difficulty that’s the problem… <snip>

I know you want there to be a solo option for many things in this game, and by and large a lot of the stuff in this game is soloed. But don’t think that Raids are the only thing that deviates, even WvW and SPvP are two other areas where you will need to have allies for some tasks to succeed. Soloing T4 fractals might be the single hardest thing to do, certain ones especially. Not sure if Aetherpath is even soloed at all…

And I personally think it’s a very good thing that players who have gotten so many kills doing raiding are capable of still wiping to VG, it proves that the bosses in Forsaken Thicket will still be challenging for the rest of the game’s lifespan. In fact I have to go find this reddit thread somewhere where a guy and his friends from WoW Raiding attempted to do some raiding here, they were of course, not aware of the gear checks in place for tanking and after spending a lot of time they killed VG. They didn’t think VG was ‘Mythic’ difficulty, but they saw it as Heroic which if you aren’t aware, is ‘Hard’. But that was also for their first kill without figuring out tanking so…

nagr.1593:

With raids it’s the “every chain in the link must be perfect or near-perfect” mentality… <snip>

I still want to bring up the point that these raids were originally not supposed to be puggable according to the devs. They saw a need from us saying that we should be able to form pug groups to do so, and they delivered in LFG. It’s very natural that there will be ‘Failure’ stories from raiding when the groups Raiding was intended for are the groups that have been working with each other for a long time.

nagr.1593:

Be honest, if u never pug then just say that u don’t understand… <snip>

I have 88 LIs. I have been a part of guild groups, or have lead groups for around 20ish of them, before I felt confident to start pugging the others. I heavily dislike the groups demanding lots of LIs for Vale Guardian, hell a couple of my first kills for VG were groups I made asking ‘No LI required, have TS and appropriate gear plz’ or joining a guild desperately wanting to learn to kill a raid boss. The cheering you hear from a new raiding guild that you help as one of their only two pugs kill VG, is something remarkable you can’t experience anywhere else.

I think the problem relies more on the untapped ‘Raiding’ market that only the EU so far has gotten into. There’s an EU general raiding/training initiative posted on Reddit looking for like-minded new and old raiders for training or group purposes. Right now, none of the major US guilds are actively posting this, but I bet they are always recruiting.

Players are the key to the accessibility.

Sykper.6583:

I think the problem relies more on the untapped ‘Raiding’ market that only the EU so far has gotten into. There’s an EU general raiding/training initiative posted on Reddit looking for like-minded new and old raiders for training or group purposes. Right now, none of the major US guilds are actively posting this, but I bet they are always recruiting.

Players are the key to the accessibility.

Going deeper into this. There are two Raid Training Guilds I know of. First is the Raid Training Initiative or RTI and second is the Guild Death from Below or DFB and both are in EU. And on Reddit I only see Raid Training Threads for EU. I really don’t see much from NA. And I don’t think that there is no Demand of this in NA. Are there much less People on NA? Or why is it that I don’t see such Things from NA People? I’d like to see some Players to step up and found a Guild dedicated on Raid Training

Ohoni.6057:

You can pug raids.

Oh! You’ve solved this entire problem then! Apparently raids are easily puggable, and everyone who says otherwise is wrong somehow.

They were your words, not mine.

If the main point is to make raids more accessible why not allow easy mote with mobs having 50% toughness or vitality, BUT remove lege armor progression, remove Li drop and limit magnetite shared to 15/week?
I’ll also tell you why noone would do it…. It’s cause all the whiners here want the shinies “for free”. Period.
If anet ever decides to make raids casual-friendly and give them access to same rewards they will totaly waste the work put in introducing difficult content that 5%-10% of same of the most loyal playerbase has been literally begging for since Day 1.

Easy raids are called, “fractals.”

No, Fractals are Fractals, and they are missing almost every feature that easy raids would need to have. It’s like you’re saying “you already have a cheeseburger without cheese on it, it’s called ‘a salad.’”

Now blame the economist. Go do this experiment, go to T3/4 Fractals and count the hours needed to get a complete set of armor. Let’s say the stats don’t matter because you can stat swap. I’ll be waiting for the results.

Obviously that wouldn’t be a productive use of my time, but the result do not matter here. Fractals are irrelevant to easy mode raids, and I don’t know why you continue to insist on bringing them up. If anyone is currently running Fractals because they want to acquire Ascended armor that way, easy mode raids might end up changing their play patterns. I don’t know, and nor would it bother me if it did. So long as they’re having fun, that’s great.

“Everything is too expensive or behind too much RNG, no reason for easy raids not to have them all cheap and not behind RNG” nice logic here.

Thank you, we can at least finally agree on something.

You want to invalidate other sources of rewards, not just hurting raids but your objective now is to hurt ALL content in the game. You must really hate instanced content, or is grouping up the issue, I can’t tell.

I’m not invalidating anything.

Make it easy to get one set but don’t worry you’ll have to get it on more characters so it’s ok. Nice one! Maybe with the second collection you’ll choose another set, and then with the third one, the third weight that you missed!

We don’t know what the second collection gives out because it hasn’t done so yet, but if the hard mode raid hands out Ascended armor sets, then why would it be an issue if the easy mode does it too? They’ve established that they think it’s ok to have out Ascended armor sets, so why are you trying to make that my problem?

But seriously, if your problem with the game is how expensive crafting Ascended is, or how hard it is to get Ascended through RNG then you can always go and make a post complaining about it.

It’s not my problem. You’re the one that raised it, I was just responding to you. I’ve been very clear on what my issue is, and that’s easy mode raids and access to Envoy armor for players who will never enjoy the current raid system.

As I said, personally I could care less about access to Ascended armor. I actually have a handful of Ascended armor/weapon chests sitting in my inventory because I haven’t bothered to figure out which piece to get for which character.

If they want, like yourself, easy raid for normal raid rewards, then i disagree. It’s fairly injust to actual raiders, and just so selfish to want rewards in an easier way…

Why? Raiders enjoy raiding. It is no burden on them to say “hey, go have fun playing the part of the game you love most!” So why would players who enjoy raiding deserve to also get special rewards for playing how they most enjoy? It’s like a child saying “I refuse to eat desert unless you give me a second desert too!”

Raiders do not deserve anything special for playing the game how they most enjoy playing it, so allowing easy mode to provide access to those rewards is not taking away anything owed to raiders, it is just leveling the playing field for those players who do not enjoy raiding.

so tell me, how about spamming 1 for some time with whatever build / gear is more effort than learning raid, gearing for it, etc etc. Do you have a magical formul that transform time into effort? a formula fair for everyone of course, not just for you…

I’ll never satisfy you on this point, just as you’ll never satisfy me in arguing that nobody deserves raid loot than raiders. Just rest assured that I understand that low challenge over long time can balance out with high challenge over short time, and that you don’t need to agree for it to be true. Nobody needs your permission.

funny, that’s precisely what you’re asking for… different mecanisms so that no wipe.

Same mechanisms, different outcomes. I’ve been clear enough on this that you should really stop claiming ignorance.

so maybe you should go back to these games? because gw2 is not what you’re asking for, without multiple difficulty raids.

It’s raids that have disrupted the game that I’d been playing the three years before them. If “go back to where you came from” is your argument, then that would apply to the raiders, not to people upset about the raids. You are the invasive species.

So, let’s imagine. easy mode raids are here, without rewards because that’s just normal, but anet email you the envoy armor because some reason. What would be the purpose of this kind of raid? once you see the story, no reason to see it again. You would experience the boss, fine. then you would leave, because you have the shinies you want, and no more reason to “raid”. But you would have waste anet dev times, gg.

If they implemented easy mode raids, AND they provided me personally with envoy armor without having to run it? I would still advocate that they need to make the armor accessible to everyone else, because it’s not just about me.

But ok, to expand your point slightly, and they implemented easy mode raids and sent Envoy armor to everyone else so that it’s no longer a goal, well then it comes down to what the other rewards would be. I’m assuming that it would offer a packet of exotic armor, sellable items, etc. that would be equivalent to the time and effort needed to complete it, so that anyone who currently plays Fractals or Dungeons today could say “that would be an equivalently productive use of my time,” and would do so, because it would be fresh new content for them to explore.

If you’re trying to argue that there’s no reason to play raids beyond the loot chase, then maybe raids aren’t worth the time to develop, and they should just put those rewards behind content that more people would actually enjoy playing.

I still want to bring up the point that these raids were originally not supposed to be puggable according to the devs. They saw a need from us saying that we should be able to form pug groups to do so, and they delivered in LFG. It’s very natural that there will be ‘Failure’ stories from raiding when the groups Raiding was intended for are the groups that have been working with each other for a long time.

You say that as if it excuses poor design goals. This is GW2. Designing content hat is not intended for pugs is a bad idea from conception.

Why? Raiders enjoy raiding. It is no burden on them to say “hey, go have fun playing the part of the game you love most!” So why would players who enjoy raiding deserve to also get special rewards for playing how they most enjoy? It’s like a child saying “I refuse to eat desert unless you give me a second desert too!”

Raiders do not deserve anything special for playing the game how they most enjoy playing it, so allowing easy mode to provide access to those rewards is not taking away anything owed to raiders, it is just leveling the playing field for those players who do not enjoy raiding.

but why people like you deserve same rewards as me, whereas we’re not playing the same game mode? i don’t see the logic behind your claim. Unless of course there is no logic, and you just want shinies…raiders don’t deserve better rewards, obviously, they just deserve raid rewards (anet choice btw).

I’ll never satisfy you on this point, just as you’ll never satisfy me in arguing that nobody deserves raid loot than raiders. Just rest assured that I understand that low challenge over long time can balance out with high challenge over short time, and that you don’t need to agree for it to be true. Nobody needs your permission.

you’ll never satisfy no one because you know you dont have any logic and good argument behind your claim.

Same mechanisms, different outcomes. I’ve been clear enough on this that you should really stop claiming ignorance.

different outcomes means different mechanisms, you should stop claming ignorance.

It’s raids that have disrupted the game that I’d been playing the three years before them. If “go back to where you came from” is your argument, then that would apply to the raiders, not to people upset about the raids. You are the invasive species.

On the contrary, raids are here to satisfy certain customers. You’re not the target audience, deal with it. you can have fun with 95% of the game.

But ok, to expand your point slightly, and they implemented easy mode raids and sent Envoy armor to everyone else so that it’s no longer a goal, well then it comes down to what the other rewards would be. I’m assuming that it would offer a packet of exotic armor, sellable items, etc. that would be equivalent to the time and effort needed to complete it, so that anyone who currently plays Fractals or Dungeons today could say “that would be an equivalently productive use of my time,” and would do so, because it would be fresh new content for them to explore.

If you’re trying to argue that there’s no reason to play raids beyond the loot chase, then maybe raids aren’t worth the time to develop, and they should just put those rewards behind content that more people would actually enjoy playing.

finally you see reason, there no reason to have better loot than exotic in easy mode raid. Nice. Because since legendary in a content as easy as dungeons or t1 or t2 fractals is non sense ofc, exotic is enough.

But for you, what is the reason to play easy mode if not for the loot you want in? since we demonstrated to you there is no story, and since after fighting once each boss to “enjoy them”, there is no point fighting them more in easy mode.

but why people like you deserve same rewards as me, whereas we’re not playing the salme game mode?

. . .

There’s no need for a reason. Why wouldn’t they deserve the same rewards? If players want those things, why should they not have access to them?

raiders don’t deserve better rewards as other, obviously, they just deserve raid rewards (anet choice btw).

Right, and that’s the problem, for the time being, ANet has chosen to tie Envoy armor behind raids. They could, and should, choose to do otherwise.

different outcomes means different mechanisms, you should stop claming ignorance.

Nope. Say you have a paintball gun, firing typical paintballs. Then you have another paintball gun that fires balls filled with acid. The latter one would cause a lot more harm if the shots landed, but the flight profiles between the two would be identical. If you goal was “never get hit,” then the way you would respond to both versions would be identical, you would try as best you could to never ever be hit, and if you were successful in that, the results would be identical, not a mark on you. Only if you failed would the results be any different, either you’d have some paint on you can could continue to practice, or you’d have some acid burns and would have to stop to get that taken care of. Same mechanism, different outcomes. Again, the paint method would serve as good training for the acid method, because as you get better at avoiding getting hit, those skills would translate 1:1 to avoiding the acid balls.

On the contrary, raids are here to satisfy certain customers. You’re not the target audience, deal with it. you can have fun with 95% of the game.

Again, that argument is invalid when the raids contain story and rewards that are relevant to players of that other 95% of the content. When there are alternative methods for those other 95% to acquire both, THEN your argument will become a perfectly valid one, but not a moment before.

Ohoni.6057:

There’s no need for a reason. Why wouldn’t they deserve the same rewards? If players want those things, why should they not have access to them?

there are pretty clear reasons not to provide blanket coverage for legendary gear ranging from economic to aesthetic reasons. you do actually need to make a case against those arguments if you want anyone to agree with you

Sarrs.4831:

there are pretty clear reasons not to provide blanket coverage for legendary gear ranging from economic to aesthetic reasons.

They aren’t as clear as you might think. For example, i don’t actually see one.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Pretend that ANet is never going to add tiers to raids (even if they did, it would take a year or so to implement probably). What would you like to see ANet do in the rest of the game?

1. Introduce as much dungeon-type content as they did with raids.
2. remove exp block due to raid masteries (or make them unlockable by just entering the raid, so i can at least do them even if they won’t do me any good besides unlocking xp gain)
3. make raid rewards (especially legendary armor) obtainable in other ways, comparable to pre-raid times so i don’t need to do raids to get them
4. never again tie LS story (or any important storyline GW1 vets would like to see) with raids.

TL/DR; if Anet’s not going to open raid accessibility significantly, then i’d like them to make it so that i have no reason (besides liking that mode, of course) to ever visit them, and can easily pretend they do not exist.

As long as Anet will try to entice people to do Raids, and at the same time make them unappealing to most of those people, the problem will exist.

there are pretty clear reasons not to provide blanket coverage for legendary gear ranging from economic to aesthetic reasons. you do actually need to make a case against those arguments if you want anyone to agree with you

Those arguments would need to be made before I could point out why they are wrong.

TL/DR; if Anet’s not going to open raid accessibility significantly, then i’d like them to make it so that i have no reason (besides liking that mode, of course) to ever visit them, and can easily pretend they do not exist.

Truth.

. . .

There’s no need for a reason. Why wouldn’t they deserve the same rewards? If players want those things, why should they not have access to them?

Of course there is a need for a reason, you should know it. there are plenty of reason to prevent access to them (because we’re talking about raid rewards here, another legendary armor outside of raid is needed i think).

Right, and that’s the problem, for the time being, ANet has chosen to tie Envoy armor behind raids. They could, and should, choose to do otherwise.

Your opinion, we just disagree. I trust dev to better know than you what is better for the game.

Nope. Say you have a paintball gun, firing typical paintballs. Then you have another paintball gun that fires balls filled with acid. The latter one would cause a lot more harm if the shots landed, but the flight profiles between the two would be identical. If you goal was “never get hit,” then the way you would respond to both versions would be identical, you would try as best you could to never ever be hit, and if you were successful in that, the results would be identical, not a mark on you. Only if you failed would the results be any different, either you’d have some paint on you can could continue to practice, or you’d have some acid burns and would have to stop to get that taken care of. Same mechanism, different outcomes. Again, the paint method would serve as good training for the acid method, because as you get better at avoiding getting hit, those skills would translate 1:1 to avoiding the acid balls.

Nah, if a mecanic deals so few damage no wipe would happen, people will never learn. Because, why dodge when you won’t die? there is a druide that will heal you. And then after, with normal boss, the difference would be to big.

Again, that argument is invalid when the raids contain story and rewards that are relevant to players of that other 95% of the content. When there are alternative methods for those other 95% to acquire both, THEN your argument will become a perfectly valid one, but not a moment before.

ANd what story does i contain exactly, story relevant to 95% of player? i’m searching… so what does it remain? loot…If only reward remains, sorry to inform you raids are not the first and probably not the last part of the game having specific rewards…

1. Introduce as much dungeon-type content as they did with raids.
2. remove exp block due to raid masteries (or make them unlockable by just entering the raid, so i can at least do them even if they won’t do me any good besides unlocking xp gain)
3. make raid rewards (especially legendary armor) obtainable in other ways, comparable to pre-raid times so i don’t need to do raids to get them
4. never again tie LS story (or any important storyline GW1 vets would like to see) with raids.

1) too bad dungeon team was disbanded years ago, but one can wish…

2) yes, bad move from anet part

3) no, again, plenty of game mode with specific reward. why raids should be different?

4) it’s not important story line…but why not

Hypairion.9210:

3) no, again, plenty of game mode with specific reward. why raids should be different?

The raid rewards are locked behind a much, much greater investment and difficulty gate than any other rewards (with the exception of glorious armor – which is something i dislike as well, by the way, though at least it’s not a gear tier but merely a single skin set, and one i don’t really like, so i can pretend to ignore it), so they are already different. But why is covered by the last part of my post, below the 4 points – it’s so i could ignore raids’ existence.

As long as raids are something that people are enticed to do, and at the same time made so most of those people won’t be able to do them, the problem will persist. If you want to get rid of that problem, you need to remove one of the conflicting parts (so, either significantly up accessibility, or get rid of enticement). Until one of those happens, raids will continue to generate dissent, that is not going to disappear with time (in fact, from what i can see, it keeps increasing)

Astralporing.1957:

They aren’t as clear as you might think. For example, i don’t actually see one.

if you don’t see any arguments then you haven’t been paying attention for like

a year

Ohoni.6057:

Those arguments would need to be made before I could point out why they are wrong.

those arguments are not the argument i’m making and i have no interest in making arguments that you’ve already failed to refute

Of course there is a need for a reason, you should know it. there are plenty of reason to prevent access to them (because we’re talking about raid rewards here, another legendary armor outside of raid is needed i think).

If that were true, then you could provide them.

Your opinion, we just disagree. I trust dev to better know than you what is better for the game.

I thought it was obvious that we had differing opinions.

Nah, if a mecanic deals so few damage no wipe would happen, people will never learn.

Again, people will learn what they want to learn. If their only goal is to “play easy mode for easy mode” then they will just play through it, and the skills they pick up will be minimal (although still more than they would pick up from any unrelated boss fight). But if they go in with the intent to train for the harder mode, then they would go in knowing what skills they need to master, and will be able to use the easy mode to deliberately train those skills, to avoid things that they don’t absolutely have to avoid, because they know that they will have to avoid them if they play in the harder mode.

I’ve been over this time and again, you really need to stop pretending you don’t understand.

ANd what story does i contain exactly, story relevant to 95% of player?

It bridges the gap between the end of HoT and the beginning of Season 3, how the White Mantle was working behind the scenes to study the Bloodstone and expand their power, and how a team of adventurers broke into their base and shut down their operation there. And yes, players can be told these things from outside the raid, but this is a game, and it’s about experiencing the content, not receiving it second hand. Why even have a story mode to the game at all when they could have just given us a novel that tells the story? The entire point is to BE there.

loot…If only reward remains, sorry to inform you raids are not the first and probably not the last part of the game having specific rewards…

And again, two wrongs don’t make a right. If there is loot in the game that can only be found in one place, and that bothers you, then fight for that to change, I will not get in your way on that. But the existence of that loot does not in any way justify it in any way. So long as Envoy armor is restricted behind raids, you can never make the argument “well raids just aren’t for you, play the rest of the game,” because the rest of the game does not include Envoy armor.

4) it’s not important story line…but why not

Maybe its not important to you, but to other people it is. I have yet to beat Matt (down to 32%) or Xera (never done) because no one will take me, or I cant find a pug group or static group to teach me them. And yes I was very mad that Anet had a storyline in it, but they said it doesn’t effect ANYTHING outside of the main storyline, so I was like “Oh ok then, I could care less.” Then when LS3 Ep1 came out and I FINALY downed a few bosses in the raid (yeah it took 8 months to down them), turns out…..it IS connected. So…….you could be wrong on that point.

3) no, again, plenty of game mode with specific reward. why raids should be different?

Even if I want Anet to mail be a full Envoy Armor set (and yes I would SOOOOO love that), they have said they are not going to (cries for days) so in order to get it, I HAVE to do raids. Just like for the pvp legendary backpiece, I HAVE to do ranked pvp. Or the Fractal legendary backpiece, I HAVE to do fractals. And the pvp and wvw only armors, and don’t forget all the other things behind doing pve content, minis (Clockheart), weapons (pre weapon collections) and skins and ascended items. (LS extra achievements outside of doing them once) And I see no issue with having specific rewards for specific content, it makes people who want that shiny go and do said content. Yeah, most of it I hate leers at fractals and wvw and raids but I made the choice to want said shiny, so I’m forcing myself to do said content with other people (who are mostly morons or jerks but not all of them are) to get said shiny. So reward wise they should stay the same as is.

P.S. Have a question……..would legendary armor be even needed in another game mode outside of raids? If you can do everything in exotics anyways, why need it? (Beyond looking flashy, which is one reason I HATE legendary weapons, but that’s a rant for another time.)

If that were true, then you could provide them.

Ah, but you forget something important here. I’m totally fine with the actual situation, you’re the one wanting the situaution to change, so you should try to convince dev that you’re right. I don’t have to work for you, for once, you should try to put some effort in something.
But it’s ok, with you providing no argument or valid point, the situation won’t change.

Again, people will learn what they want to learn. If their only goal is to “play easy mode for easy mode” then they will just play through it, and the skills they pick up will be minimal (although still more than they would pick up from any unrelated boss fight). But if they go in with the intent to train for the harder mode, then they would go in knowing what skills they need to master, and will be able to use the easy mode to deliberately train those skills, to avoid things that they don’t absolutely have to avoid, because they know that they will have to avoid them if they play in the harder mode.

I’ve been over this time and again, you really need to stop pretending you don’t understand.

you cannot have both : a fight where skill doesn’t matter (what you want) and also a training mode. You know it, and you said it before in one of the closed threads : for you easy mode is different than training mode. What you’re saying is just utopic and wrong, and you know it.

It bridges the gap between the end of HoT and the beginning of Season 3, how the White Mantle was working behind the scenes to study the Bloodstone and expand their power, and how a team of adventurers broke into their base and shut down their operation there. And yes, players can be told these things from outside the raid, but this is a game, and it’s about experiencing the content, not receiving it second hand. Why even have a story mode to the game at all when they could have just given us a novel that tells the story? The entire point is to BE there.

See, without reading you seem to know better than me the lore. So, raiding to “experience” the story is plain wrong. you’ll find piece of paper somewhere, see some mobs, kill them, and enjoy a cinematic that everyone can show to you just opening the lfg. I think you and many other are overestimating the raid story.

And again, two wrongs don’t make a right. If there is loot in the game that can only be found in one place, and that bothers you, then fight for that to change, I will not get in your way on that. But the existence of that loot does not in any way justify it in any way. So long as Envoy armor is restricted behind raids, you can never make the argument “well raids just aren’t for you, play the rest of the game,” because the rest of the game does not include Envoy armor.

Oh you can fight as you want, just don’t expect many people to agree with you because that’s how the game is from the begenning. And no one is preventing you to raid. If you want to raid, you’re free to raid. Of course, you’ll have to make some efforts, but not more than actual raiders.

how can you even put hard contend in a game that present itself casual and for fun ? it is not fun been kicked out of groups for not been in raid ! how am i supposed to start raiding in the first please ?
this game is just skins, look and fun oh oh are you full accended full power infusion and have done raids 123456789 times ? no ? then sorry this content is unacsesable to you !

Sarrs.4831:

Astralporing.1957:

They aren’t as clear as you might think. For example, i don’t actually see one.

if you don’t see any arguments then you haven’t been paying attention for like

a year

Ohoni.6057:

Those arguments would need to be made before I could point out why they are wrong.

those arguments are not the argument i’m making and i have no interest in making arguments that you’ve already failed to refute

I know this might be kinda stupid…….but then again I am a stupid idiot, so idc most of the time. But could you explain to me that problems with it? (You can PM if you want to not cause a stir here, I just like learning information) Because, for example, (and I know there are many other ones just using this one atm) I don’t see a good thing from raising the price of ascended to craft. I had JUST started to make ascended for the first time and it was BEYOND expensive, and another reason I put it off for a bit because of it costing so much. But then they go and make it MORE expensive!??! I have no want to go for it now, because it will take two times longer to make and two times more expensive now!?!? sigh (btw, I have tried all the ways to make gold, run AB multi loot maps, run SW, run fractals, do pvp dailys, do the easy wvw dailys, sell stuff ect ect…….I have the gutter end of luck and still only make about 5g a day, if I do fractals its like 7 or 8, and that’s IF I do them, but I don’t like wasting 2 hours on one boss.)

Hypairion? I couldn’t use the quote thing for all the things I wanted to ask you (still a forum newb) but……your ok with the state of the game being out of wack in some things? Just asking why is all. Not through shade at you, just wanting to understand how you think. Makes it easier to understand your, and other people like you, stances on things.

Well……I could be wrong, but raiders I have come into contact with, either in GW2 or other games that have raids, they REALLY couldn’t care less about the storyline anywhere. They just want hard mechanics. That’s it. So……whats so hard or bad about having a easy/story mode for the people who want to experience the storyline and a harder mode for the raiders who want more hard mechanics but couldn’t care less about the storyline? (Mind you I’m just asking a question, as I already know the devs stance on making a easy mode raid in this game, just asking for your mindset)

Lakemine.3014:

But then they go and make it MORE expensive!??! I have no want to go for it now, because it will take two times longer to make and two times more expensive now!?!? sigh (btw, I have tried all the ways to make gold, run AB multi loot maps, run SW, run fractals, do pvp dailys, do the easy wvw dailys, sell stuff ect ect…….I have the gutter end of luck and still only make about 5g a day, if I do fractals its like 7 or 8, and that’s IF I do them, but I don’t like wasting 2 hours on one boss.)

If you are constantly playing the daily T4 fracs and you have enough practice, you need less than an hour for all T4 fractals. Some days if you are lucky and the fractal choice is comfortable it is possible to do them in around 20 minutes, even with pugs (random people).
All in all you get around 10-12 gold (average) per day if you sell everything and a good chance of ascended chests.
Players who play fractals regularly are drowning in chests. And even if they don’t get the pieces they need, the daily gold is enough to craft the missing pieces fast. It has never been easier to obtain asc armor. Just go for T4 fracs and you will see it.
Of course you have a harder mission to manage if you are new. That’s the same thing in every other online game. GW2 already is one of the most forgiving and easy game outta here.

After looking at the developer response on this forum I can only say: Anet really seems to hire immature people.

The response was pretty much “we can, but we don’t want to”.

I said it before and will say again that raids seem to be the most polarizing content released on the game, and one of the biggest reasons for controversy after the HoT launch.

I like raiding, but it hasn’t become a reason or liking or not, it’s a reason of being able to or staying forever out.

To be honest, it’s enraging to see how the developers seem to ignore that the “mini raid” bosses placed on LS maps aren’t enough of an introduction, and makes me wonder if they even bother to playtest their own game, they’re not enough to make players see how raids work because the difficulty is split by pretty much miles…

What are they planning to do with the game anymore? To be a game that proclaims to be “varied”, I don’t see that so called build variation, and for it to be “casual”… well, you’re making permanent content for the hardcores but content that goes away (LS) for the casuals…

Lastly, it seems that devs only come to post when they want to show off how right they are, or to pander their own egos on “thank you” forums.

Sykper.6583:

nagr.1593:

I proposed what I thot as middle-ground solution in earlier thread that got locked… <snip>

Let’s pretend that Solo Mode exists, that we have to redesign the encounters in a separate instance that make it still very challenging but in this case, players can go in and do the mechanics on their own.

Think about it just a bit, about all the mechanics that will have to be changed in this separate solo instance Forsaken Thicket. I could be a bit overwhelming and list them all, but how about this: Becoming a Slubling on Slothasor to clear mushrooms. Pray tell, how do you think the re-envisioned Solo Slothasor encounter will go? Could it even be done without breaking something?

Point being, the kind of work we would likely see from this is completely different encounters than the original version.

Not really. Like I said I have thot about it and only problem I forsee is with the AI, sometimes they glitch easily like in dungeons. I also come up with temp solution for that, maybe. Well not rly my idea, more that one alrdy in use. In escort I mean, the way u can move the npc by commands. Again not to make it more DA-esque than it needs to be, but a simple ‘recall’ command should be easy to implement. They could also fine-tune it like after greens in vg, immediately teleport them to boss. Similar deal with gors, they don’t have to use any glider animations but have them disappear and reappear later. The majority of this wouldn’t need much work except the exhaustive AI programming, which for most bosses imo would work well if was redundant long as they performed simple tasks without fail. As for scaling the bosses.. just cut everything in half, and ur done. No need to change anything else, mechanics of encounter still stay the same.

If u want it explained better there is this: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Raid-problem-solutions/first#post6388555

Yes, there are multiple ways, you could invuln, get off the platform, etc. When people were learning about the shockwaves years ago, people were jumping over them, especially during the Molten Boss encounter we all can do now in Fractals. In T4 Molten Berserker’s waves are too painful to just tank.

I use the example here because despite players seeing this mechanic all the time, unless it directly will cause them to lose something they won’t try to learn it or even worse, they know of it, they just don’t care enough.

Again I was dodging through them at first, it’s still easier for me than jumping over them. Both urs and mine are acceptable ways to mitigate this, neither is the only right one

This is simple psychological reason, if players learn there’s mechanic that does little dmg, they can afford to be careless and ignore it. If it deals them substantial dmg, they will learn to avoid it. I’m not arguing with u on this, just the approach u used, e.g. jumping is not necessary for players to learn in example u used

For instance, the knockback on last boss for volcanic does close to no dmg, so u can take the hit without needing to panic run out soon as u see the animation start. Whereas mechanic that oneshots or kills, it can be learned or avoided no matter how many trials it takes. Even missing grns on vg can be avoided. Most exp pugs on sloth also depend on their subsquad for stun break when they get feared, so they don’t bother learning how to save themselves instead of being so dependant. The list goes on

Sykper.6583:

If you want players to care about doing mechanics right, you need to make it so they can’t get the rewards if they fail at the mechanics. …Oh, that’s Raiding.

I don’t know why ur arguing this with me? I never said otherwise. I said I don’t agree with those ppl who want easy mode raids. I’m talking abt solo mode just as a way to ease in new players and get them comfortable with mechanics b4 they go in with real grp. For instance, learning to tank bosses like xera. I’d like to do that without a grp, since I haven’t found a training run for this boss yet. Not to mention they are not as forgiving as u would believe even in training, since u are wasting their time in the process of learning how best to tank.

I know you want there to be a solo option for many things in this game, and by and large a lot of the stuff in this game is soloed. But don’t think that Raids are the only thing that deviates, even WvW and SPvP are two other areas where you will need to have allies for some tasks to succeed. Soloing T4 fractals might be the single hardest thing to do, certain ones especially. Not sure if Aetherpath is even soloed at all…

Those are other game modes, whereas this is PvE. If you replace E with P, obviously ur gonna be expected to work with or against each other the whole time. There’s no point soloing t4s because it is very easy to find a grp for them, much easier than finding a raid for a particular boss. U also have multiple tiers so u can always solo lower lvl ones if u wanted to. Atherpath has many mechanics that need grp for, so def not prudent to solo it. Other dungeons are however, soloble despite it being 5man content.

It’s beside the point tho, I’m talking abt solo as a training mode not as anything with any rewards. They obviously need to bridge the gap since there alot of ppl complaining abt difficulty & elitist attitude in raids. The system now doesn’t work that well, LI can be faked and u can produce any amt they ask for. Gear and killproof (long as not visual proof) also can be faked. There are still many players joining grps they are not qualified for. If you could address all these problems without an easy mode raids, why wouldn’t u want to?

Aldath.1275:

After looking at the developer response on this forum I can only say: Anet really seems to hire immature people.

The response was pretty much “we can, but we don’t want to”.

If that’s what you actually gleamed from Crystal, I don’t know what to say. That’s so distant from what she actually said and meant that you might be utterly compromised for discussion the subject.

Did you ever think to consider why she wants to keep the content the hardest in the game? Hell, she finally posted and gave us a concrete answer on the intentions for raiding, why it runs separate to the Fractal system, and you took it as something insulting.

@nagr,

I am more or less taking the position to find the best possible resolution to this discussion, without having to impact the already slow pace which Raid wings are being delivered. Forcing the raid devs to create any other mode of their raid content is legitimately doubling their work load, which includes everything from creation to bug maintenance. Remember all the bugs that made I believe Salvation Pass inaccessible? That’s on the raid devs to work on, that delays content.

That being said…

Wouldn’t it be better for your suggestion to implement more options in another area, like the Special Forces Training Area? Been thinking on it for a while, that Training Golem has a lot of potential. I know it’s been asked in a different thread, but more options such as ‘CC Training’, or as you put it, ‘Tank Training’ could be put on that AI Golem.

Is that not a better idea?

Aldath.1275:

What are they planning to do with the game anymore? To be a game that proclaims to be “varied”, I don’t see that so called build variation, and for it to be “casual”… well, you’re making permanent content for the hardcores but content that goes away (LS) for the casuals…

THIS.

There’s much, much less replay value in LS episodes and the ‘maplets’ that they’re releasing.

Dungeons, fractals and raids are the only PVE content with real, lasting appeal.

Lakemine.3014:

I know this might be kinda stupid…….but then again I am a stupid idiot, so idc most of the time. But could you explain to me that problems with it? (You can PM if you want to not cause a stir here, I just like learning information) Because, for example, (and I know there are many other ones just using this one atm) I don’t see a good thing from raising the price of ascended to craft. I had JUST started to make ascended for the first time and it was BEYOND expensive, and another reason I put it off for a bit because of it costing so much. But then they go and make it MORE expensive!??! I have no want to go for it now, because it will take two times longer to make and two times more expensive now!?!? sigh

It’s relevant, so I’m happy to go over it with someone new. I’m not really interested in going over it with other people as they have already read these arguments, understand them, and ultimately decide to ignore them.

There are two elements to this which act on one another.

Firstly, ascended materials and their crafting are a fundamental in the economy. The economy and crafting in the game are fundamentally designed to emphasize certain elements. Crafting Ascended armor is one of them; people will always want new armor of the highest possible quality. Crafting food and other consumables is another. The economy being dependent on these two fundamentals is a very good thing as it ensures that every player can participate meaningfully in the economy if they want to; anybody can farm seaweed, anybody can farm iron ore, and because of those two permanent furnaces of demand, players always have a consistent means of expanding their wallet.

The issue with Legendary items is that it permanently pulls demand out of that economy. You no longer need to craft ascended items of that class, because you will get them automatically. In controlled circumstances, this can be alright, but once too high a proportion of the market is crowded out by legendaries, it will cause stagnation.

Hypothetically, let’s say everyone received a set of legendary armor tomorrow, for free: What would be the impact on the market? The price for commonly farmable materials across the board would plummet overnight. Who suffers? New players who have no means to accumulate capital.

There’s an argument to be made that this doesn’t matter because in a self-contained economy, relative pricing is all that matters, rather than absolute pricing. This brings us to item two:

The values of some items are determined by intangibles. This ultimately just ends up boiling down to ‘cool skins’; some items are more expensive than others for no appreciable reason other that taste. There is no fundamental problem with this; the issue is that if you have completely bottomed out the market’s bread and butter (ascended materials & consumables) new & poor players have no reliable means to earn the money they need to participate in the ‘cool skins’ market. An unhealthy economy will, in such a way, ultimately result in creating a huge barrier to appealing to new players, which can be a death sentence for an MMO.

Lakemine.3014:

(btw, I have tried all the ways to make gold, run AB multi loot maps, run SW, run fractals, do pvp dailys, do the easy wvw dailys, sell stuff ect ect…….I have the gutter end of luck and still only make about 5g a day, if I do fractals its like 7 or 8, and that’s IF I do them, but I don’t like wasting 2 hours on one boss.)

If you go to Gallowfields Waypoint right now and completely clear the valley of all ores you’ll make 1g for about 3-4 minute’s effort.

Vinceman.4572:

Lakemine.3014:

But then they go and make it MORE expensive!??! I have no want to go for it now, because it will take two times longer to make and two times more expensive now!?!? sigh (btw, I have tried all the ways to make gold, run AB multi loot maps, run SW, run fractals, do pvp dailys, do the easy wvw dailys, sell stuff ect ect…….I have the gutter end of luck and still only make about 5g a day, if I do fractals its like 7 or 8, and that’s IF I do them, but I don’t like wasting 2 hours on one boss.)

If you are constantly playing the daily T4 fracs and you have enough practice, you need less than an hour for all T4 fractals. Some days if you are lucky and the fractal choice is comfortable it is possible to do them in around 20 minutes, even with pugs (random people).
All in all you get around 10-12 gold (average) per day if you sell everything and a good chance of ascended chests.
Players who play fractals regularly are drowning in chests. And even if they don’t get the pieces they need, the daily gold is enough to craft the missing pieces fast. It has never been easier to obtain asc armor. Just go for T4 fracs and you will see it.
Of course you have a harder mission to manage if you are new. That’s the same thing in every other online game. GW2 already is one of the most forgiving and easy game outta here.

Oh I know, I have done research on youtube, the wiki and even dulfy to help with it. I HATE AR, it took over 4 months to get enough to get to 130 and then……they go and remove the AR from my amulet and I have to redo it all over again, finally after 6 months, I got to 150 AR. And yes I know t4s can be done in less then 20-60 minutes, done them before in less, and mostly pugs at that point are VERY good, but……..maybe its just the times I go looking in LFG? nothings there. Or I see one and join up and 2 hours later we still are on 2nd fractal. Just makes me want to give up, because in that time I could have done events in another map to get the currency in HoT or pvped in stead of wasting my time in fractals. But I know about that, problem is……my luck is the gutter end of it. Either in loot drops or grouping up……..with dungeons, fractals…..and raids. But thanks for the heads up of info I already knew, but hopefully people who didn’t know of it, know now. So thank you for being a good community info-ist. (I think I spelled that correctly…..oh well, thanks anyways)

[/quote]
It’s relevant, so I’m happy to go over it with someone new. I’m not really interested in going over it with other people as they have already read these arguments, understand them, and ultimately decide to ignore them.

There are two elements to this which act on one another.

Firstly, ascended materials and their crafting are a fundamental in the economy. The economy and crafting in the game are fundamentally designed to emphasize certain elements. Crafting Ascended armor is one of them; people will always want new armor of the highest possible quality. Crafting food and other consumables is another. The economy being dependent on these two fundamentals is a very good thing as it ensures that every player can participate meaningfully in the economy if they want to; anybody can farm seaweed, anybody can farm iron ore, and because of those two permanent furnaces of demand, players always have a consistent means of expanding their wallet.

The issue with Legendary items is that it permanently pulls demand out of that economy. You no longer need to craft ascended items of that class, because you will get them automatically. In controlled circumstances, this can be alright, but once too high a proportion of the market is crowded out by legendaries, it will cause stagnation.

Hypothetically, let’s say everyone received a set of legendary armor tomorrow, for free: What would be the impact on the market? The price for commonly farmable materials across the board would plummet overnight. Who suffers? New players who have no means to accumulate capital.

There’s an argument to be made that this doesn’t matter because in a self-contained economy, relative pricing is all that matters, rather than absolute pricing. This brings us to item two:

The values of some items are determined by intangibles. This ultimately just ends up boiling down to ‘cool skins’; some items are more expensive than others for no appreciable reason other that taste. There is no fundamental problem with this; the issue is that if you have completely bottomed out the market’s bread and butter (ascended materials & consumables) new & poor players have no reliable means to earn the money they need to participate in the ‘cool skins’ market. An unhealthy economy will, in such a way, ultimately result in creating a huge barrier to appealing to new players, which can be a death sentence for an MMO.

If you go to Gallowfields Waypoint right now and completely clear the valley of all ores you’ll make 1g for about 3-4 minute’s effort.[/quote]

Being “semi” sarcastic “YOU CAN FARM SEAWEED!?!?!?!? WHERE!??!!?” Farming iron ore I know, but…..why sell it? Don’t you need it for most of the ascended items? Or am I wrong? Because I was reading on the wiki about whats needed for making ascended armor and weapons, which are REQUIRED for t4 fractals, and mostly raids, (course you can do them in exotics which is what I do and have had a few clears) and you need a lot of the iron ore. Or is it less expensive to sell it and then rebuy it? Seems odd. I know its just one mat item, but it seems like the one that’s mostly used in most things at endgame…..which is weird since its a t2? t3? mat.

About the other “cool skins” being more expensive. Yeah I’m selfish and wish they were ALOT lower, but that’s mainly because I have problems with making gold, even with the 2g each day. (Oh which I’m VERY glad for them adding, but even with that being added, I still have problems because EVERYTHING at endgame is SO expensive. (food and gear) And that…….meh, it seems like Anet and the players who buy them to then just sell at a later time to get more gold, are the ones controlling the market and keeping the prices high. (And yes I know I could be wrong, but just looking at it seems that way.) So I just settled for basic looks that look realistic over the stupid, or gaudy looks. Though its mainly out of being poor rofl.

Also…….how are skins that are locked behind dungeons, fractals, LS and raids different between the ones made from mats, like the mystic forge ones?

P.S. Sorry I messed up the quote thing, I’m a newb to the forums. Can anyone help me? I was quoting Sarrs.4831 just to be clear so things don’t get mixed…..sorry!

Lakemine.3014:

Being “semi” sarcastic “YOU CAN FARM SEAWEED!?!?!?!? WHERE!??!!?”

I think they added a spot in Ember Bay but I haven’t really gone out of my way to find it.

Lakemine.3014:

Farming iron ore I know, but…..why sell it? Don’t you need it for most of the ascended items? Or am I wrong? Because I was reading on the wiki about whats needed for making ascended armor and weapons, which are REQUIRED for t4 fractals, and mostly raids, (course you can do them in exotics which is what I do and have had a few clears) and you need a lot of the iron ore. Or is it less expensive to sell it and then rebuy it? Seems odd. I know its just one mat item, but it seems like the one that’s mostly used in most things at endgame…..which is weird since its a t2? t3? mat.

Yes, you need Iron Ore. You need about 135 Iron Ore for each Deldrimor Ingot you plan to make, & it’s what keeps its price so high. But if the demand behind Deldrimor Ingots were to be die (and ascended crafting being irrelevant by mass Legendary printing is one of them), then iron ore is back to 8c prices.

Low tier materials are used in the Ascended crafting process by design & for a very good reason; it gives new players a great way to enter the economy and it gives established players a good reason to go back and participate in downscaled content, explore old zones and have fun with friends who might not be level-capped.

Lakemine.3014:

About the other “cool skins” being more expensive. Yeah I’m selfish and wish they were ALOT lower, but that’s mainly because I have problems with making gold, even with the 2g each day. (Oh which I’m VERY glad for them adding, but even with that being added, I still have problems because EVERYTHING at endgame is SO expensive. (food and gear) And that…….meh, it seems like Anet and the players who buy them to then just sell at a later time to get more gold, are the ones controlling the market and keeping the prices high. (And yes I know I could be wrong, but just looking at it seems that way.) So I just settled for basic looks that look realistic over the stupid, or gaudy looks. Though its mainly out of being poor rofl.

Here’s the thing
Let’s imagine we’re in a world where you cannot farm money on a consistent basis with items like Iron Ore. The only way to get the money you need to buy a cool skin is either by getting lucky and getting another cool skin to sell, and then buy the cool skin you want, or by forking out real world money to get gems to convert to gold with which to buy the cool skin.
We all want cool skins but for cool skins to actually be an approachable model for the average player there needs to be the stepping stone of consistently farmable items, and that means materials.

Lakemine.3014:

Also…….how are skins that are locked behind dungeons, fractals, LS and raids different between the ones made from mats, like the mystic forge ones?

Items that are dropped and become Bind on Equip are useful incentives to try to entice players to participate in a form of content.
Items that are Bind on Pickup give players a steady means of advancement & provide you with specific targeted goals. Good for getting players to participate in a form of content that they might not otherwise be able to justify doing.

There are advantages to both and reasons to include both in the game.

Ah, but you forget something important here. I’m totally fine with the actual situation, you’re the one wanting the situaution to change, so you should try to convince dev that you’re right. I don’t have to work for you, for once, you should try to put some effort in something.
But it’s ok, with you providing no argument or valid point, the situation won’t change.

You were the one that insisted there was a valid reason to prevent easy mode raids from having access to the rewards of hard mode raids, but you cannot back up your position. I can’t refute a position that doesn’t actually exist. If it’s just your general opinion that easy mode raids should never get access to hard mode rewards then. . . I disagree.

you cannot have both : a fight where skill doesn’t matter (what you want) and also a training mode.

Yes, you can, and this has been true of almost every form of training in human history.

See, without reading you seem to know better than me the lore. So, raiding to “experience” the story is plain wrong. you’ll find piece of paper somewhere, see some mobs, kill them, and enjoy a cinematic that everyone can show to you just opening the lfg. I think you and many other are overestimating the raid story.

Not yours to judge. Maybe you don’t pay attention to the raid, but that’s not my problem.

Oh you can fight as you want, just don’t expect many people to agree with you because that’s how the game is from the begenning. And no one is preventing you to raid. If you want to raid, you’re free to raid. Of course, you’ll have to make some efforts, but not more than actual raiders.

None of that relates in any way to what I said.

The economy being dependent on these two fundamentals is a very good thing as it ensures that every player can participate meaningfully in the economy if they want to; anybody can farm seaweed, anybody can farm iron ore, and because of those two permanent furnaces of demand, players always have a consistent means of expanding their wallet.

Farming materials to sell to wealthy players is not “meaningfully contributing,” and should not be encouraged as a behavior. If people genuinely enjoy harvesting resources, that’s fine, they can do that, but it should not be a “recommended activity” for players trying to catch up economically.

Sarrs.4831:

The issue with Legendary items is that it permanently pulls demand out of that economy. You no longer need to craft ascended items of that class, because you will get them automatically. In controlled circumstances, this can be alright, but once too high a proportion of the market is crowded out by legendaries, it will cause stagnation.

It doesn’t seem to be a problem with weapons. Why do you think it would be a problem with armor?
(and please, don’t mention again the “mass printing” of legendaries, because it is a complete strawman)

The issue with Legendary items is that it permanently pulls demand out of that economy. You no longer need to craft ascended items of that class, because you will get them automatically. In controlled circumstances, this can be alright, but once too high a proportion of the market is crowded out by legendaries, it will cause stagnation.

This is a silly argument. The same is true of Ascended gear, once you have a set, you don’t need any more. If you want to put it on another character, you can, and if you need to swap the stats, you can, the only difference is that Legendary is slightly more convenient if you’re going to be doing this on a regular basis. Besides which, most of the game doesn’t even require Ascended, so it’s not like the demand is super high, it’s just that the supply is super low. It would be healthier for the game overall if they just massively reduced the costs involved.

Hypothetically, let’s say everyone received a set of legendary armor tomorrow, for free: What would be the impact on the market? The price for commonly farmable materials across the board would plummet overnight. Who suffers? New players who have no means to accumulate capital.

Lol, no. New players earn capital from running events and getting gold drops, not from farming mats. This is an action adventure game, not a mining sim. If new players feel forced into mining ore all day then that is a toxic gameplay mechanic.

The gold economy in this game is already a fiasco, and there’s pretty much no way to fix it at this point. Too many people have way too much gold to balance it. This is why future development should ignore the gold economy entirely, and build development entirely on fresh currencies. They’re already doing this to some degree, if you want an ascended backpack, all you need to do is farm Bloodstone Fen or Ember Bay for a few days, earning a backpack equivalent to what would take over a hundred gold in crafting mats to build yourself.

Let’s imagine we’re in a world where you cannot farm money on a consistent basis with items like Iron Ore. The only way to get the money you need to buy a cool skin is either by getting lucky and getting another cool skin to sell, and then buy the cool skin you want, or by forking out real world money to get gems to convert to gold with which to buy the cool skin.
We all want cool skins but for cool skins to actually be an approachable model for the average player there needs to be the stepping stone of consistently farmable items, and that means materials.

I almost never sell off resources, and I have done ok for money. I would have done better if I were actively flipping the markets, but I find such behavior repugnant. There are plenty of ways to earn money in this game, farming resources isn’t the only method, and it definitely shouldn’t be the best method. This isn’t Farmville.

How do you ask for a thread to be closed? This has gone so far off topic it hurts and I can’t believe some of the utter nonsense that is being “discussed”. I’m going to go get my law degree without going to college cuz yea, its my right and I want one.

From ANET’s perspective, why would they add Envoy armor elsewhere?

Envoy armor was one of the many incentives to have players play their new content. It wouldn’t surprise me if WvW eventually gets a specific reward that takes a large investment. And you know what? We’d probably see increased game time and player population in WvW. Rewards aren’t the only reason to play the content, but they are part of it.

Personally, I like exclusive rewards across the entire game. I want fractals to have its own set of armor, or open world to have more exclusive rewards…wait it does. It just isn’t as “valuable”

Can I just buy legendary weapons with LI instead of parking characters at material farms?

not strictly OT so i’ll give a short response to these

Astralporing.1957:

It doesn’t seem to be a problem with weapons. Why do you think it would be a problem with armor?

weapons are different from armor because the best weapon changes on a patch-to-patch basis. even now it’s impossible to tell what the best weapons for any given class will be in a year, because chances are expac 2 will have launched and each class will have even more weapons to pick from.

armor is comparatively simple. what’s your armor class? legendary armor of that class is the best for you. you cannot predict which weapon will be the best in the future in the same way as you can reliably assert that your armor class will remain your class’s armor class (and two other class’s best armor, no less).

Astralporing.1957:

(and please, don’t mention again the “mass printing” of legendaries, because it is a complete strawman)

ironically, a strawman itself, as i never posited that mass printing of legendaries will ever happen. it’s an exaggeration for the purpose of illustration. if x happens to the extreme, y will happen to the extreme- it follows that if x happens in a minor amount, y happens in a minor amount.

Ohoni.6057:

This is a silly argument.

you wrote so much. to go out of your way to lose my attention in the first sentence is disappointing, though not unexpected

ButterPeanut.9746:

From ANET’s perspective, why would they add Envoy armor elsewhere?

Envoy armor was one of the many incentives to have players play their new content. It wouldn’t surprise me if WvW eventually gets a specific reward that takes a large investment. And you know what? We’d probably see increased game time and player population in WvW. Rewards aren’t the only reason to play the content, but they are part of it.

Personally, I like exclusive rewards across the entire game. I want fractals to have its own set of armor, or open world to have more exclusive rewards…wait it does. It just isn’t as “valuable”

Can I just buy legendary weapons with LI instead of parking characters at material farms?

I agree and i’d definitely jump into things i don’t do much. I used to wvw a lot until raids came up, now i don’t have much incentive to do it since raids take all my interest. I unique wvw item would definately fire me up to jump back into wvw and spend most of my time there.

Unfortunately people in this game are not used to this kind of thing since b4 HoT almost everything in this game was readily available to anyone even if the cost was expensive.
The game atm is moving in a lot more driven direction as in “this is the reward, that’s how you get it”, which goes against casual mentalities since a lot of players hit a wall whenever time/effort/skill is required. I don’t believe either Anet or the complaining playerbase is in the wrong here, it’s just how things are with every single game out there. They change all the time and people come/leave depending on their own preferences.

In the end GW2 has still kept to its traditional principles since high end gear is super easy to aquire, and leveling is faster than any other mmo out there. Same goes with the mastery system, bloodstone fen/ember bay can get you the masteries super fast while providing nice loot.

From ANET’s perspective, why would they add Envoy armor elsewhere?

Because they put a lot of time and effort into making it, and that time and effort is wasted if only a small number of players get to enjoy it. The more players that get to enjoy what they make, the more players that are made happy by it, the better for ANet.

Envoy armor was one of the many incentives to have players play their new content. It wouldn’t surprise me if WvW eventually gets a specific reward that takes a large investment. And you know what? We’d probably see increased game time and player population in WvW. Rewards aren’t the only reason to play the content, but they are part of it.

ANet doesn’t benefit from more players doing Raids.

ANet doesn’t benefit from more players doing WvW.

ANet benefits from more players HAVING FUN in their game.

If players are raiding, or WvWing, but are not enjoying themselves, then ANet does not benefit from that. Raiders may benefit from having more people to join their parties, and WvWers might benefit from more people to beat on, but neither of those groups is owed those other player’s participation. Players that do not want to raid should not feel compelled to do it anyway just so that those other players have an easier time.

ANet benefits by letting players play the content they enjoy, not by bribing them into doing content that they don’t enjoy. The rewards should be used as seasoning for content that the player already wants to do, not payment for a chore that the player wouldn’t do otherwise.

As I said, there is a valid purpose to rewards to getting players to try new or improved content, but rewards of this type should be short and sweet, give it a try, see if you like it, and if you do, you can continue playing for the better rewards, but if you aren’t having fun, you can move to a different activity and continue your path to the better rewards there.

Now people have said “well, they could just have different Legendary Armor in different content.” How would that be of any benefit to ANet? That means that if they want to support five different playstyles, they’d need to spend the time building five different armor sets, and it’s taken them a year just to make most of ONE. Also, since armor is not fungible, players who only want to PvP, but don’t like the PvP-only armor, would STILL be upset that they couldn’t get the Fractal-only armor that they prefer. There is NO benefit to this strategy.

Instead, they should make “home” sources for such rewards, places where it is easier to advance that goal, and where you might have to dabble in them for a few hours to start advancing that reward, but you should still be able to work towards the eventual reward via other methods. That is how ANet benefits, by nudging players in a certain direction, but also respecting their choice to not go that way, and not punishing them for it by withholding desired rewards.

Can I just buy legendary weapons with LI instead of parking characters at material farms?

Ideally, in some manner.

Sarrs.4831:

Lakemine.3014:

Being “semi” sarcastic “YOU CAN FARM SEAWEED!?!?!?!? WHERE!??!!?”

I think they added a spot in Ember Bay but I haven’t really gone out of my way to find it.

Lakemine.3014:

Farming iron ore I know, but…..why sell it? Don’t you need it for most of the ascended items? Or am I wrong? Because I was reading on the wiki about whats needed for making ascended armor and weapons, which are REQUIRED for t4 fractals, and mostly raids, (course you can do them in exotics which is what I do and have had a few clears) and you need a lot of the iron ore. Or is it less expensive to sell it and then rebuy it? Seems odd. I know its just one mat item, but it seems like the one that’s mostly used in most things at endgame…..which is weird since its a t2? t3? mat.

Yes, you need Iron Ore. You need about 135 Iron Ore for each Deldrimor Ingot you plan to make, & it’s what keeps its price so high. But if the demand behind Deldrimor Ingots were to be die (and ascended crafting being irrelevant by mass Legendary printing is one of them), then iron ore is back to 8c prices.

Low tier materials are used in the Ascended crafting process by design & for a very good reason; it gives new players a great way to enter the economy and it gives established players a good reason to go back and participate in downscaled content, explore old zones and have fun with friends who might not be level-capped.

Lakemine.3014:

About the other “cool skins” being more expensive. Yeah I’m selfish and wish they were ALOT lower, but that’s mainly because I have problems with making gold, even with the 2g each day. (Oh which I’m VERY glad for them adding, but even with that being added, I still have problems because EVERYTHING at endgame is SO expensive. (food and gear) And that…….meh, it seems like Anet and the players who buy them to then just sell at a later time to get more gold, are the ones controlling the market and keeping the prices high. (And yes I know I could be wrong, but just looking at it seems that way.) So I just settled for basic looks that look realistic over the stupid, or gaudy looks. Though its mainly out of being poor rofl.

Here’s the thing
Let’s imagine we’re in a world where you cannot farm money on a consistent basis with items like Iron Ore. The only way to get the money you need to buy a cool skin is either by getting lucky and getting another cool skin to sell, and then buy the cool skin you want, or by forking out real world money to get gems to convert to gold with which to buy the cool skin.
We all want cool skins but for cool skins to actually be an approachable model for the average player there needs to be the stepping stone of consistently farmable items, and that means materials.

Lakemine.3014:

Also…….how are skins that are locked behind dungeons, fractals, LS and raids different between the ones made from mats, like the mystic forge ones?

Items that are dropped and become Bind on Equip are useful incentives to try to entice players to participate in a form of content.
Items that are Bind on Pickup give players a steady means of advancement & provide you with specific targeted goals. Good for getting players to participate in a form of content that they might not otherwise be able to justify doing.

There are advantages to both and reasons to include both in the game.

Thank you. And I will say, even though I disagree nor like some of the things you point out, they do make logical sense. And also because I’m not the devs of the game, I respect them to oversee it. Now……I wonder if thief healers would be viable in future raids……

zoomborg.9462:

ButterPeanut.9746:

From ANET’s perspective, why would they add Envoy armor elsewhere?

Envoy armor was one of the many incentives to have players play their new content. It wouldn’t surprise me if WvW eventually gets a specific reward that takes a large investment. And you know what? We’d probably see increased game time and player population in WvW. Rewards aren’t the only reason to play the content, but they are part of it.

Personally, I like exclusive rewards across the entire game. I want fractals to have its own set of armor, or open world to have more exclusive rewards…wait it does. It just isn’t as “valuable”

Can I just buy legendary weapons with LI instead of parking characters at material farms?

I agree and i’d definitely jump into things i don’t do much. I used to wvw a lot until raids came up, now i don’t have much incentive to do it since raids take all my interest. I unique wvw item would definately fire me up to jump back into wvw and spend most of my time there.

Unfortunately people in this game are not used to this kind of thing since b4 HoT almost everything in this game was readily available to anyone even if the cost was expensive.
The game atm is moving in a lot more driven direction as in “this is the reward, that’s how you get it”, which goes against casual mentalities since a lot of players hit a wall whenever time/effort/skill is required. I don’t believe either Anet or the complaining playerbase is in the wrong here, it’s just how things are with every single game out there. They change all the time and people come/leave depending on their own preferences.

In the end GW2 has still kept to its traditional principles since high end gear is super easy to aquire, and leveling is faster than any other mmo out there. Same goes with the mastery system, bloodstone fen/ember bay can get you the masteries super fast while providing nice loot.

I disagree about end game gear being easier, in fact they made it harder by making it more expensive. But the other 3 points you list, I agree with 100%, I LOVE I can make a new character, basically insta level to 80 and gear up, and join into, open world pve in lv80 zones, dungeons, fractals (at least some of them) and even raids. (once I get better at them) And I LOVE that Bloodstone Fen and Ember Bay mastery exp gain is so good, and wonder if the new map will also.

Question……I don’t raid as offen (as in never in the last 5 weeks because no groups) as raiders, but is the exp gain good for you to get new masteries? Or are you “forced” (used loosely) into doing open world pve for them? If so…..maybe they need to up the exp gained from boss and encounter kills? Just a idea.

P.S. I don’t like being forced to do content I don’t like over a EXTREMELY long period of time to get a reward, in fact I HATE IT. And I dislike wvw, dungeons, fractals, raids and mostly open world pve, but I slog through it because that’s the ONLY way to get it. And yes I SOOOOOO bad wish there was a way, even if it was ALOT longer, to get the same rewards in pvp. (LOVE pvp) But I understand specific rewards and know I’m never getting my wish…….but I keep dreaming….. sigh

Lakemine.3014:

P.S. I don’t like being forced to do content I don’t like over a EXTREMELY long period of time to get a reward, in fact I HATE IT. And I dislike wvw, dungeons, fractals, raids and mostly open world pve, but I slog through it because that’s the ONLY way to get it. And yes I SOOOOOO bad wish there was a way, even if it was ALOT longer, to get the same rewards in pvp. (LOVE pvp) But I understand specific rewards and know I’m never getting my wish…….but I keep dreaming….. sigh

Exactly why I don’t have a legendary. I would like to get Hope, but I don’t WvW or PvP and really don’t want to do the HoT masteries to get the items to make one, so I do without.
And I sure as hell don’t expect to be able to get one by doing something easier than was intended to receive such item!

Whether i feel forced or not depends on what content i have to do, generally i enjoy the game on 95% of the content including pvp,wvw which makes me an exception.
U have to take into account that when new masteries appear u gain about 50% of the xp just by doing the new story. If monday comes and new masteries appear just play the map naturally and you will get it without it being a chore.

As for raids, i don’t think it’s an efficient source of xp.

Ohoni.6057:

Fractals are irrelevant to easy mode raids, and I don’t know why you continue to insist on bringing them up.

I don’t know why you don’t understand the simple flaw of your new reward system. If it makes it much easier and more effortless to get the same reward fractals give then it’s a problem. You must be really dense for not seeing this as a problem. It’s like asking for T1 fractals to give Ascended gear faster and more effortlessly than T2/T3/T4 Fractals, it doesn’t make any kind of sense and if you insist on not understanding this then you are a troll. It’s simple common sense, why you are arguing against it I don’t know.

They’ve established that they think it’s ok to have out Ascended armor sets, so why are you trying to make that my problem?

They give them through a hard to get collection, in hard to do content. Not in dungeon difficulty content. There is a difference and a reason why that collection cannot be done in dungeons, or T1 fractals or you can’t understand that either?

It’s not my problem.

Really not your problem? Then why are you asking for an easier way to get Ascended armor/weapons? From getting the Legendary armor skins now your crusade turned into easier Ascended armor/weapons. That’s your real problem here you should go address your actual problem and not some imaginary one.

Also, you said it yourself:

“Everything is too expensive or behind too much RNG, no reason for easy raids not to have them all cheap and not behind RNG” nice logic here.

Thank you, we can at least finally agree on something.

Make up your mind and see your real problem.

Exactly why I don’t have a legendary. I would like to get Hope, but I don’t WvW or PvP and really don’t want to do the HoT masteries to get the items to make one, so I do without.
And I sure as hell don’t expect to be able to get one by doing something easier than was intended to receive such item!

Exactly! So they should have alternatives, methods that are equivalent to the other ones, but in various modes, some shorter but harder, some easier but longer, as wide a variety as possible so that as many people as possible can find a method that they’ll actually enjoy pursuing.

If it makes it much easier and more effortless to get the same reward fractals give then it’s a problem.

If so, perhaps that is a problem with Fractals, not a problem with my proposed easier raids. There are already plenty of methods of earning Ascended armor, many of them easier than Fractals. Again, Fractals are irrelevant to this discussion. If you enjoy Fractals, and you don’t think the Fractal rewards are good enough, make that case, but make it elsewhere.

It’s like asking for T1 fractals to give Ascended gear faster and more effortlessly than T2/T3/T4 Fractals,

But that’s the thing, you would not earn the gear faster through easy mode raid than you would through hard mode, it would take longer. Longer is the opposite of faster.

They give them through a hard to get collection, in hard to do content.

They also give out Ascended armor from story chapters, from certain achievements, from PvP loot crates that are pretty much effortless to acquire. You really are putting an unreasonable expectation on the amount of effort it should take to earn Ascended armor pieces.

From getting the Legendary armor skins now your crusade turned into easier Ascended armor/weapons.

Honestly, it’s not a primary goal for me, and I could take or leave it, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable or unfair either. I’ve said that as far as rewards go, the ONLY portion of raid rewards that I absolutely insist upon is the Envoy and Experimental armor skins. Everything else associated with the process is completely incidental to me so far as loot goes. If they decide on some alternate path towards earning those skins that bypasses the rest of the existing Legendary Armor achievement line entirely, I would be fine with that, I just think it would be more work on their end for basically no good reason.

“Everything is too expensive or behind too much RNG, no reason for easy raids not to have them all cheap and not behind RNG” nice logic here.

Thank you, we can at least finally agree on something.

Make up your mind and see your real problem.

What? I stand behind that. Everything is too expensive or behind too much RNG, and there is no reason for easy mode raids to not have them cheap or not behind RNG, although ideally that would be part of an overall move towards making the other sources cheaper and less random. I think overall the players would very much approve if ANet took serious efforts to de-escalating the gold value divide in the economy.

Ohoni.6057:

If so, perhaps that is a problem with Fractals, not a problem with my proposed easier raids.

It is a problem with your proposed easier raids. Rewards have some form of balance between different game modes and those other modes have some RNG if you haven’t noticed. You are asking to give them fixed without any of the limitations imposed by the other systems. And for easier content than the other system as well.

But that’s the thing, you would not earn the gear faster through easy mode raid than you would through hard mode, it would take longer. Longer is the opposite of faster.

What does hard mode have to do with anything? It’s completely irrelevant, the easy mode reward system would compete with other content of similar difficulty, for the same rewards, not hard mode raids. That’s what you seem to not understand, or ignore.

What? I stand behind that. Everything is too expensive or behind too much RNG, and there is no reason for easy mode raids to not have them cheap or not behind RNG, although ideally that would be part of an overall move towards making the other sources cheaper and less random.

So wait, instead of fixing the problem, expensive or behind too much RNG, you want to add a NEW way of getting Ascended gear without those problems? Push for an overall change of rewards away of RNG, grind or gold-dependency, that’s fine, why does it have to be in easy mode raids?

It is a problem with your proposed easier raids. Rewards have some form of balance between different game modes and those other modes have some RNG if you haven’t noticed.

And my point is, the existing methods aren’t nearly so balanced as you insist, they just have various arbitrary rules and you pick the one that works for you. Keep this in mind as well, you seem to be bothered by the idea that players would be able to earn Magnetite from easy mode, and spend it to buy Ascended gear. Well currently, in the game right now, if you complete even one raid event, even if you paid to be dragged across the finish line, you can do the same, and you can get several shards per attempt merely for failing at the current raids, so you could theoretically earn plenty of shards to buy whatever you like without ever having to beat any boss other than that one time.

What does hard mode have to do with anything? It’s completely irrelevant, the easy mode reward system would compete with other content of similar difficulty, for the same rewards, not hard mode raids. That’s what you seem to not understand, or ignore.

It’s not a competition.

So wait, instead of fixing the problem, expensive or behind too much RNG, you want to add a NEW way of getting Ascended gear without those problems?

You keep assigning motivations to me that I do not claim. This is not something I’m pushing for, I said what I was pushing for in the part you did not quote. This is something you addressed as a potential side effect of my goals. My response is that I don’t mind that it’s a side effect because it’s a step i the right direction, and if they want to make other steps elsewhere, that would be great too.

Push for an overall change of rewards away of RNG, grind or gold-dependency, that’s fine, why does it have to be in easy mode raids?

It doesn’t.

It really doesn’t.

I have been pushing for two things relative to this discussion:

1. There should be easy mode raids to provide players a way to experience the raids without having to take on the significant challenges involved in the existing versions.

2. There should be alternate methods of earning Envoy/Experimental armor skins that do not requiring the existing raid difficulty.

That’s it, that is my ONLY motivation relative to this discussion. Anything else is addressing positions that you have taken. So if they implement easy mode raids in a way that accomplish the two goals above, without giving players any easier access to Ascended armor in any fashion, that would be perfectly fine by me, it would just also be equally fine by me if they were used as an easier avenue for players to acquire Ascended armor. I have no strong feelings on the matter one way or the other, just so long as they are not used as an excuse to not accomplish the two objectives listed above.

maddoctor.2738:

Ohoni.6057:

If so, perhaps that is a problem with Fractals, not a problem with my proposed easier raids.

It is a problem with your proposed easier raids. Rewards have some form of balance between different game modes and those other modes have some RNG if you haven’t noticed. You are asking to give them fixed without any of the limitations imposed by the other systems. And for easier content than the other system as well.

But that’s the thing, you would not earn the gear faster through easy mode raid than you would through hard mode, it would take longer. Longer is the opposite of faster.

What does hard mode have to do with anything? It’s completely irrelevant, the easy mode reward system would compete with other content of similar difficulty, for the same rewards, not hard mode raids. That’s what you seem to not understand, or ignore.

What? I stand behind that. Everything is too expensive or behind too much RNG, and there is no reason for easy mode raids to not have them cheap or not behind RNG, although ideally that would be part of an overall move towards making the other sources cheaper and less random.

So wait, instead of fixing the problem, expensive or behind too much RNG, you want to add a NEW way of getting Ascended gear without those problems? Push for an overall change of rewards away of RNG, grind or gold-dependency, that’s fine, why does it have to be in easy mode raids?

Well the envoy armor is for killing all the bosses 1 time right in normal mode?

What if the easy mode needed to kill each boss 5-10 times to get the same reward?
Its not like we dont have tiered achievment already so its hard to implement.

What if the easy mode needed to kill each boss 5-10 times to get the same reward?
Its not like we dont have tiered achievment already so its hard to implement.

Right, that’s my assumption going into this, their exact method would be whatever is easiest and most effective from their point of view, but I would fully expect to have to beat each raid boss many times over in easy mode to accomplish what could be done on one kill in the current version, presumably collecting fragments rather than finished pieces.