Guild Wars 2

Ohoni.6057:

What if the easy mode needed to kill each boss 5-10 times to get the same reward?
Its not like we dont have tiered achievment already so its hard to implement.

Right, that’s my assumption going into this, their exact method would be whatever is easiest and most effective from their point of view, but I would fully expect to have to beat each raid boss many times over in easy mode to accomplish what could be done on one kill in the current version, presumably collecting fragments rather than finished pieces.

I rather just have a achieviement ticking up then 6 more bag slot occupied by helm,gloves,shoulder,chest,leggings and boot fragments tbh

That’s it, that is my ONLY motivation relative to this discussion. Anything else is addressing positions that you have taken.

Take a look at the OP. Relevant parts:

he first tier could be as difficult as the Vanilla Dungeons and serve as an introduction to Raids for people that are completely new. The second tier could be as difficult as T3 or T4 Fractals and could serve as the daily-running for rewards by casual, but comfortable people. The third tier would then have the original difficulty and would serve as the weekly run with full rewards and progression towards Legendary armor.

and

Tiers could be distinguished not only in difficulty but also in the rewards and progression you get to specific things. For an example, doing Tier 1 would give you a certain currency that you can convert into a currency of Tier 2 and so forth. The weekly cap from Tier 3 would not apply on the lower tiers, giving more room for advanced players to farm Raids more often and still get all the rewards they want.

Now go read my first post on the subject which was NOT addressed to you at all:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/A-Suggestion-For-Raids/page/4#post6404781

He asks for a dungeon difficulty content as an easy mode Raid. Check.
He asks for that content to give the same rewards as raids (in general, including ascended gear, legendary armor etc, no distinction). Check.
Dungeon difficulty is below T3 fractals. Check.

He wants a lower difficulty content to award higher quality rewards than current content. In a similar way he could’ve asked, hey now that you are adding the Tower of Nightmares as a Fractal, make it so it gives far superior rewards to all the other Fractals, like a T1 Tower gives better rewards than T3 Thaumanova, because “reasons”.

So is it my positions or the OP positions? My initial post addressed the OP’s positions not yours.

I’ll let the OP defend his own positions, I was only defending my own.

maddoctor.2738:

That’s it, that is my ONLY motivation relative to this discussion. Anything else is addressing positions that you have taken.

Take a look at the OP. Relevant parts:

he first tier could be as difficult as the Vanilla Dungeons and serve as an introduction to Raids for people that are completely new. The second tier could be as difficult as T3 or T4 Fractals and could serve as the daily-running for rewards by casual, but comfortable people. The third tier would then have the original difficulty and would serve as the weekly run with full rewards and progression towards Legendary armor.

and

Tiers could be distinguished not only in difficulty but also in the rewards and progression you get to specific things. For an example, doing Tier 1 would give you a certain currency that you can convert into a currency of Tier 2 and so forth. The weekly cap from Tier 3 would not apply on the lower tiers, giving more room for advanced players to farm Raids more often and still get all the rewards they want.

Now go read my first post on the subject which was NOT addressed to you at all:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/A-Suggestion-For-Raids/page/4#post6404781

He asks for a dungeon difficulty content as an easy mode Raid. Check.
He asks for that content to give the same rewards as raids (in general, including ascended gear, legendary armor etc, no distinction). Check.
Dungeon difficulty is below T3 fractals. Check.

He wants a lower difficulty content to award higher quality rewards than current content. In a similar way he could’ve asked, hey now that you are adding the Tower of Nightmares as a Fractal, make it so it gives far superior rewards to all the other Fractals, like a T1 Tower gives better rewards than T3 Thaumanova, because “reasons”.

So is it my positions or the OP positions? My initial post addressed the OP’s positions not yours.

For an example, doing Tier 1 would give you a certain currency that you can convert into a currency of Tier 2 and so forth. The weekly cap from Tier 3 would not apply on the lower tiers, giving more room for advanced players to farm Raids more often

Yes and you seem to have missed this, OP dont talk about what the convert rate for kitten t2 then finaly to t3 would be.

Lets say as an example you can get 100 in kitten get t2 remove a 0.
t2 you can get 100 and finaly t3 same max as always but remove a 0 so max you would get would be 11 magnenite shards a week.
+ raiders that can do t3 will be able to do t2 and t1 for extra rewards the same week while blasting through it with their premades or help new blood get into t3 in the future.

I see no problem with any of these points you bring up in this post.

Edit
Just read it again and there would be no cap, not sure that would be possible tbh.

Linken.6345:

Yes and you seem to have missed this, OP dont talk about what the convert rate for kitten t2 then finaly to t3 would be.

I didn’t miss it. I tend to ignore vague “it should take multiple repetitions”, or “it would give an other currency that you can convert” comments. They are not something you can talk about.

You were the one that insisted there was a valid reason to prevent easy mode raids from having access to the rewards of hard mode raids, but you cannot back up your position. I can’t refute a position that doesn’t actually exist. If it’s just your general opinion that easy mode raids should never get access to hard mode rewards then. . . I disagree.

of course you disagree, you want free legendary armor after all. But since you cannot provide any objective argument, your positions are really weak and can be resumed as : i want it, so i have to have it.

Yes, you can, and this has been true of almost every form of training in human history.

So prove it. For having participing in a number of teaching run in raid here, i can tell you that your solution would not help training. Btw, because you don’t want to train, your opinion on this matter is not relevant. You don’t know how to train too…

Not yours to judge. Maybe you don’t pay attention to the raid, but that’s not my problem.

Yes story is a part SO important in raid that after more than 300 LI i still dont know it. Again, you’re just looking for any piece or argument in order to make easy mode available, so that you can have your free rewards.

None of that relates in any way to what I said.

of course it is, you’re the one saying that you can’t raid. I’m telling you that no one except yourself is preventing you from raiding.

Hypairion.9210:

You were the one that insisted there was a valid reason to prevent easy mode raids from having access to the rewards of hard mode raids, but you cannot back up your position. I can’t refute a position that doesn’t actually exist. If it’s just your general opinion that easy mode raids should never get access to hard mode rewards then. . . I disagree.

of course you disagree, you want free legendary armor after all. But since you cannot provide any objective argument, your positions are really weak and can be resumed as : i want it, so i have to have it.

Yes, you can, and this has been true of almost every form of training in human history.

So prove it. For having participing in a number of teaching run in raid here, i can tell you that your solution would not help training. Btw, because you don’t want to train, your opinion on this matter is not relevant. You don’t know how to train too…

Not yours to judge. Maybe you don’t pay attention to the raid, but that’s not my problem.

Yes story is a part SO important in raid that after more than 300 LI i still dont know it. Again, you’re just looking for any piece or argument in order to make easy mode available, so that you can have your free rewards.

None of that relates in any way to what I said.

of course it is, you’re the one saying that you can’t raid. I’m telling you that no one except yourself is preventing you from raiding.

Ok Since your offering I will tag along with my celestial arms/tactics/berserker warrior and clear said raids easy right?

Linken.6345:

Ok Since your offering I will tag along with my celestial arms/tactics/berserker warrior and clear said raids easy right?

you can raid with that if you want, look at my posts i’m not talking about CLEARING raid, i’m talking about raiding. You see the difference? you can raid, but you won’t probably succeed. But that’s just because raids are group contents and if you prefer to play your special snowflake build, that’s up to you ^^

if you want easy clear, first you’ll have to learn how to raid and how to play your class in a group content. But all raiders went through that you know. Why the situation should be different for you? are you special?

Sarrs.4831:

Astralporing.1957:

(and please, don’t mention again the “mass printing” of legendaries, because it is a complete strawman)

ironically, a strawman itself, as i never posited that mass printing of legendaries will ever happen. it’s an exaggeration for the purpose of illustration. if x happens to the extreme, y will happen to the extreme- it follows that if x happens in a minor amount, y happens in a minor amount.

No, it doesn’t. For it to be anywhere close to truth, Legendary armor would have to be at best no more costly than ascended. Which it isn’t. As many players (Raid players) already pointed out to anyone asking for it, it’s possible to buy several ascended sets for the price of one legendary. LI’s are merely taking the place of Gift of Mastery. And if you’ll want to have a set for more than one character, you’d need to craft a precursor armor first, which (if we go by the weapon precursor crafting precedent), will likely be much costly than crafting a normal ascended set.

So, your worries are completely baseless.

Hypairion.9210:

Linken.6345:

Ok Since your offering I will tag along with my celestial arms/tactics/berserker warrior and clear said raids easy right?

you can raid with that if you want, look at my posts i’m not talking about CLEARING raid, i’m talking about raiding. You see the difference? you can raid, but you won’t probably succeed. But that’s just because raids are group contents and if you prefer to play your special snowflake build, that’s up to you ^^

if you want easy clear, first you’ll have to learn how to raid and how to play your class in a group content. But all raiders went through that you know. Why the situation should be different for you? are you special?

I know perfectly well how to play my class my way not as the meta battle way that your pigonholed into by raid enrage timers.

Any combination of classes should be able to clear raids like you can do in all the other content in this game.
Would be fun to see 10 mesmers do it.

of course you disagree, you want free legendary armor after all.

You want no less free Legendary armor than I do. You want to earn yours in hard mode raiding, I want to earn mine somewhere else because I don’t enjoy hard mode raiding, but I obviously intend to work hard to get it.

But since you cannot provide any objective argument, your positions are really weak and can be resumed as : i want it, so i have to have it.

And what would be the counter position to that? In an entertainment product, why shouldn’t I have what I want? That’s my confusion about some of your arguments, you seem to be placing some sort of objective value on these items, that they are objectively “worth” X, and that any other method of earning them makes them worth less than X, which you view as an objective wrong. But they aren’t. They are worth whatever they are worth, and that value can change any number of ways, none of which are “wrong,” they are just subjective disagreements about what each of us wants out of it.

For having participing in a number of teaching run in raid here, i can tell you that your solution would not help training.

No, you couldn’t, because those training runs were not done in an easy mode. You believe that it would not work, which is not the same as it actually not working.

Btw, because you don’t want to train, your opinion on this matter is not relevant. You don’t know how to train too…

I know how I train, I know what works for me. Maybe it doesn’t work for you, but it would be of benefit to those not served by the existing training run methods.

Yes story is a part SO important in raid that after more than 300 LI i still dont know it.

That’s your choice to not pay attention and engage with it. They don’t hit you in the face with it so I can understand how you could remain. . . unknowledgeable about the attached lore. It is there though. Enough that they felt it necessary to place a recap NPC in Bloodstone Fen, just as they did with LWs1. Maybe you should visit him.

Again, you’re just looking for any piece or argument in order to make easy mode available, so that you can have your free rewards.

Not really. I consider them to be two completely distinct lines of argument. Even if they never ever ever provide an easy mode raid, or if they did provide one without access to Envoy armor, I would still want a non-hard-raid path to Envoy armor, and even if they gave out free Envoy armor in the mail, or promised that they would never ever ever include envoy armor in any easy mode raid, I would still want that easy mode raid to exist. It is two things, neither excludes the other.

of course it is, you’re the one saying that you can’t raid. I’m telling you that no one except yourself is preventing you from raiding.

I could raid, what I could never do is enjoy raiding (in their current form). This is a game, I do not want to spend significant amounts of time doing things that I do not enjoy. Since I could never enjoy raids in their current form, and that is not something I could ever change, I will never want to do raids in their current form. If, however, the elements about the raids that are anathema to me were removed, then there are certainly parts there that I would definitely enjoy, and would spend time doing, so that is what I am trying to achieve here.

I know perfectly well how to play my class my way not as the meta battle way that your pigonholed into by raid enrage timers.

Any combination of classes should be able to clear raids like you can do in all the other content in this game.
Would be fun to see 10 mesmers do it.

and you’re wrong, sorry to inform you that raids are mean to be challenging. if any combinaison of classes (with actual balance) could beat it, then it would not be challenging. Maybe you have to accept that some people have to right to have a challenging content? you can play whatever you want in all other part of the game after all. I still don’t understand people like you refusing to play with the group and for the group. Maybe you should play a solo game…

and i’m sure 10 mesmers could beat some boss or event in raid.

You want no less free Legendary armor than I do. You want to earn yours in hard mode raiding, I want to earn mine somewhere else because I don’t enjoy hard mode raiding, but I obviously intend to work hard to get it.

You have not providing any facts that your way will require as much effort as normal raid. Your only argument is : it will take longuer, but you won’t convince anybody with that…

And what would be the counter position to that? In an entertainment product, why shouldn’t I have what I want?

Because that’s just a selfish reason without any logic behind ? if everyone can have what they want, what’s the point of playing the game anymore. I’m against you because you’re only thinking about yourself. You don’t care about what other players want, as long as you have what you want. You look like a small boy in a candy shop, wanting everything and not understanding that you have to pay to have something and throwing a tantrum because he can’t have what he wants…

No, you couldn’t, because those training runs were not done in an easy mode. You believe that it would not work, which is not the same as it actually not working.

oh sorry, i forget that you are so experienced in raid, in all boss and events, that you know perfectly what can be done to train. I’m sure you beat all boss and all wings plenty of time, that you run some training pug runs, so that you know what’s working and what is not.

and btw, the training i’m talking about IS working, look at some post on reddit and in this sub forum. Maybe it won’t work for you, but again, that’s your problem. It works fine for other people after all…

I know how I train, I know what works for me. Maybe it doesn’t work for you, but it would be of benefit to those not served by the existing training run methods.

yes, i’m sure for you, you know. But you already said before that you don’t want to train. And what works for you would probably not work for others.

That’s your choice to not pay attention and engage with it. They don’t hit you in the face with it so I can understand how you could remain. . . unknowledgeable about the attached lore. It is there though. Enough that they felt it necessary to place a recap NPC in Bloodstone Fen, just as they did with LWs1. Maybe you should visit him.

i did, and i don’t know what’s more in raid…a cinematic yes, but everyone can have access to it in a cleared instance.

I could raid, what I could never do is enjoy raiding (in their current form). This is a game, I do not want to spend significant amounts of time doing things that I do not enjoy. Since I could never enjoy raids in their current form, and that is not something I could ever change, I will never want to do raids in their current form. If, however, the elements about the raids that are anathema to me were removed, then there are certainly parts there that I would definitely enjoy, and would spend time doing, so that is what I am trying to achieve here.

but the element you dislike ARE part of the raid. remove them, and you just have a 10 men dungeon…But if you want a 10 men dungeon, fine, you’ll have the same dungeon reward then (exotic and no better).

Hypairion.9210:

I know perfectly well how to play my class my way not as the meta battle way that your pigonholed into by raid enrage timers.

Any combination of classes should be able to clear raids like you can do in all the other content in this game.
Would be fun to see 10 mesmers do it.

and you’re wrong, sorry to inform you that raids are mean to be challenging. if any combinaison of classes (with actual balance) could beat it, then it would not be challenging. Maybe you have to accept that some people have to right to have a challenging content? you can play whatever you want in all other part of the game after all. I still don’t understand people like you refusing to play with the group and for the group. Maybe you should play a solo game…

and i’m sure 10 mesmers could beat some boss or event in raid.

Oh I wasent talking about beating one boss I was talking about clearing all the raid wings.

So how do having a copy paste raid of the current that instead of 100% that are 50% maybe even 25% then give the same % in rewards.
You will still have your challenge 100% raid and can clear it as long as you want.

Just that other people can clear at their pace and get the rewards over a longer span of time.

Tweaking numbers and extending timers to 30mins 45mins etc aint as challenging as the alternative you want them doing a whole new armor skin and some other way to get it in spvp, wvw or open world.

Only reason you want that from what I can see is you want others to wait 1-2 years if ever to get the same legendary armor that you can get as soon as they hit for raids.

It’s about time this thread gets closed. Same kitten reclycled over and over…..and plz some1 give Ohoni envoy armor b4 he protests outside anet offices.

If you go back to Crystal Reid’s first response to this thread, it answers all of the posts that followed for five pages.

maddoctor.2738:

Linken.6345:

Yes and you seem to have missed this, OP dont talk about what the convert rate for kitten t2 then finaly to t3 would be.

I didn’t miss it. I tend to ignore vague “it should take multiple repetitions”, or “it would give an other currency that you can convert” comments. They are not something you can talk about.

We can’t? Seems weird in that each new map Anet makes “NEW” currency IS added. So why not make a new currency specific for raids just a different tier? I don’t see a issue. We have SO many currencies as is, and it seems they continue to add more.

Also…..multiple repetitions of something you love is ALOT more fun then multiple repetitions of something you hate. And yes, I would love to do a pvp reward track over 100-200 times for a legendary weapon or armor, heck if you want to make it a bit higher sure, then do what is required currently.

Hypairion.9210:

Linken.6345:

Ok Since your offering I will tag along with my celestial arms/tactics/berserker warrior and clear said raids easy right?

you can raid with that if you want, look at my posts i’m not talking about CLEARING raid, i’m talking about raiding. You see the difference? you can raid, but you won’t probably succeed. But that’s just because raids are group contents and if you prefer to play your special snowflake build, that’s up to you ^^

if you want easy clear, first you’ll have to learn how to raid and how to play your class in a group content. But all raiders went through that you know. Why the situation should be different for you? are you special?

Wait……so the definition of raiding is beating your head on ONE boss for hours if not days with no progress to beating it? And that’s fun? Because to my knowledge when people talk about raiding, its ALWAYS about beating the bosses and getting the loot. Same with fractals and dungeons. Or do people really like taking 4-6 hours to down one fractal or dungeon? Because it doesn’t seem fun. (In fact its not because that’s one reason why I got turned off from those game content types, is because they took 4-6 hours to do.) (And yes I have cleared everything in less then 5-10 minutes, but I can’t carry 4 other people who don’t have a clue who to play their class, or rotation or gear, let alone 9 in raids.) So the question might be a bit sarcastic, but then again sarcasm is a form of anger, and its a bit maddening you are saying people should be content with…..well just beating there head on a boss for days with next to no reward and should not complain. Correct me if I’m wrong and I misunderstood you.

Ohoni.6057:

You want no less free Legendary armor than I do. You want to earn yours in hard mode raiding, I want to earn mine somewhere else because I don’t enjoy hard mode raiding, but I obviously intend to work hard to get it.

Ohoni, ill give counter to this, pls I don’t want to world completion just for craft legendary, it takes hours and hours and I’m sick of it. Provide alternate way or let me ‘buy’ world completion with tokens or w/e

Also pls stop forcing us to do other content. I dun wanna spend 12 hrs realistically doing wvw for their stupid gift, it’s waste of time and I have no fun

And what would be the counter position to that? In an entertainment product, why shouldn’t I have what I want?

Get over urself it’s a legendary item man. They are supposed to be hard not hold ur hand. Do you see me complain abt the 300 shards I needed for mine and each cost at least 2.5g with no way around it? No but that doesn’t stop ppl on forums all the time whining abt high prices like mystic coins and leather. They need to wake up and realise this is bigger than themselves.

But if u hand me 6 diff precursors, ill accept ur argument and take ur side. I do really want them so I can sell thm to make profit, u should send it to me for this reason alone.

I could _, what I could never do is enjoy _ (in their current form). This is a game, I do not want to spend significant amounts of time doing things that I do not enjoy. Since I could never enjoy ____ in their current form, and that is not something I could ever change, I will never want to do ____ in their current form. If, however, the elements about ____ that are anathema to me were removed, then there are certainly parts there that I would definitely enjoy, and would spend time doing, so that is what I am trying to achieve here.

Replace the term ‘raids’ as u put it with any other content each and every person doesn’t like doing, like WvW, PvP, and even open world PvE (tho ill never understand why). Congrats, u are the winner of this is my most opinionated and steadfast desire. Jump on the bandwagon and join the thousand other ppl who are dissatisfied with content they don’t enjoy pls

Nokaru.7831:

If you go back to Crystal Reid’s first response to this thread, it answers all of the posts that followed for five pages.

Not really. But it does answer maybe….2 of them? In that they (Anet) are NOT making a easy mode raid (sorry guys and gals asking for it) and raids are made and WILL be made to be the most challenging content in GW2. Which……yeah I guess it does answer the question for this forum. Sorry for being a newb, I like how the original question was for raids, but then a lot of other problems and connecting issues came up and were talked about. Shows maybe its not just a raid problem but a whole across the game problem? Could be wrong, just the way I see it atm.

Lakemine.3014:

Wait……so the definition of raiding is beating your head on ONE boss for hours if not days with no progress to beating it? And that’s fun? Because to my knowledge when people talk about raiding, its ALWAYS about beating the bosses and getting the loot. Same with fractals and dungeons. Or do people really like taking 4-6 hours to down one fractal or dungeon? Because it doesn’t seem fun.

It might not be fun, but it’s a challenge and if u don’t have a defeatist approach or mindset like I suspect that u might have, then u will accept the challenge and treat it accordingly. One of ur earlier posts said u took over 1 hour to solo the last story fight. It took me only 2nd try, the first I got taken by surprise with flight phase. Maybe 15min tops, whereas u are struggling on easy content alrdy.

So there is no way that you as an individual are going to find such a challenge fun or engaging, you might ragequit after few attempts and never comes back. That’s just ur personality, and there’s nothing wrong with that. There are tons of other players who would feel the same way as u, and it’s neither their fault or the content’s fault. For instance, u don’t blame the olympics for being tough to get into, or requiring countless hours and hours of training and practice to get to that lvl.. u accept u are just not good enough and move on. This is the way the real world works as well, unfortunate as it may be in some cases

So the question might be a bit sarcastic, but then again sarcasm is a form of anger, and its a bit maddening you are saying people should be content with…..well just beating there head on a boss for days with next to no reward and should not complain. Correct me if I’m wrong and I misunderstood you.

Without practice, where is success? Like learning a language by urself, no one is forcing u to do it but u are only doing it to better yourself. There is no ‘reward’ except feeling of self-fulfillment, and the excitement and fun that u are expecting comes later, when u figure out how to beat the boss mechanics without downing and realise u have help and rly contributed to ur group.

If u don’t think this circumstances were present before HoT, go learn to solo lupi and come back

Wait……so the definition of raiding is beating your head on ONE boss for hours if not days with no progress to beating it? And that’s fun? Because to my knowledge when people talk about raiding, its ALWAYS about beating the bosses and getting the loot. Same with fractals and dungeons. Or do people really like taking 4-6 hours to down one fractal or dungeon? Because it doesn’t seem fun. (In fact its not because that’s one reason why I got turned off from those game content types, is because they took 4-6 hours to do.) (And yes I have cleared everything in less then 5-10 minutes, but I can’t carry 4 other people who don’t have a clue who to play their class, or rotation or gear, let alone 9 in raids.) So the question might be a bit sarcastic, but then again sarcasm is a form of anger, and its a bit maddening you are saying people should be content with…..well just beating there head on a boss for days with next to no reward and should not complain. Correct me if I’m wrong and I misunderstood you.

Before clearing content, you have to Master it. Do you think people beat VG in one night ? (OK some guilds did it). My guildies and I we beat it, I think, after our 3rd night on it. Now, we beat it everytime, first time. So ofc wiping and learning are part of raiding. Then after, you can clear raids. And btw, all of this was fun. Sometimes frustrating too, but the first kill is always special. And when you becomes really traîned, then you can try with different comp, different builds, low man etc…but there is progression in raid. You start bad and are lost before the boss, and at the end it’s easy.
Do you really think people beat the boss first time ?

Ohoni.6057:

I do not want to spend significant amounts of time doing things that I do not enjoy.

Good news: you can do things you do enjoy instead, which is how I play.

What you cannot do is get the rewards that are associated with the content you avoid. I could PvP, but I don’t like it enough, so I won’t earn its Legendary Pack, no matter how much I like it.

Instead of arguing that ANet should design raids to make you happy, how about if you offer suggestions for what sort of rewards you would like for the parts of the game you do enjoy.

Lets think about Envoy armor as an mathematical equation.

The question is AxB=Envoy armor, where A = amount of time spend doing a particular task and B = the amount effort required for that task.

I may be totally wrong, but what I’ve interpreted as the differing opinions on this chain is that some people believe that B can never hit 0. I would disagree.

If a task is too simple (i.e B=0), then there should be no amount of time spent that could equate in the envoy armor.

If B can never get 0, then there might as well not be legendary armor and they should have just put it as a 2000 gem store outfit. IMO part of what makes an in game item legendary is the fact that it CANNOT be acquired by all methods of playstyle

Now the question is, where is the point where “B=0”? I would argue that Legendary armor should not be given out as a login reward. I would argue that it cannot be acquired soley by open world PvE. I would argue that it cannot be acquired by “easy mode raid”. Some may disagree.

But there is a misconception that just by allowing B to decrease and A to increase that it will automatically include more players. Yes it may include more players who couldn’t do the current level difficulty, but it then may exclude people who currently want the item solely for the prestige value. It isn’t so black and white.

Lakemine.3014:

Hypairion.9210:

Linken.6345:

Ok Since your offering I will tag along with my celestial arms/tactics/berserker warrior and clear said raids easy right?

you can raid with that if you want, look at my posts i’m not talking about CLEARING raid, i’m talking about raiding. You see the difference? you can raid, but you won’t probably succeed. But that’s just because raids are group contents and if you prefer to play your special snowflake build, that’s up to you ^^

if you want easy clear, first you’ll have to learn how to raid and how to play your class in a group content. But all raiders went through that you know. Why the situation should be different for you? are you special?

Wait……so the definition of raiding is beating your head on ONE boss for hours if not days with no progress to beating it? And that’s fun? Because to my knowledge when people talk about raiding, its ALWAYS about beating the bosses and getting the loot. Same with fractals and dungeons. Or do people really like taking 4-6 hours to down one fractal or dungeon? Because it doesn’t seem fun. (In fact its not because that’s one reason why I got turned off from those game content types, is because they took 4-6 hours to do.) (And yes I have cleared everything in less then 5-10 minutes, but I can’t carry 4 other people who don’t have a clue who to play their class, or rotation or gear, let alone 9 in raids.) So the question might be a bit sarcastic, but then again sarcasm is a form of anger, and its a bit maddening you are saying people should be content with…..well just beating there head on a boss for days with next to no reward and should not complain. Correct me if I’m wrong and I misunderstood you.

People need to understand you can’t expect to kill the boss without training. Why ? Bcos theres a lot of mechanics involve and each players has a specific task or tasks to get the team through. And if one person make mistakes that person can cause a wipe and restart. everyone needs to be good enough not saying pro but good enough and get his task/s done. it’s not like other content in the game where you can just jump in and get things done. That’s too easy and no challenge and no fun in that. This is the content you can’t solo. Theres already a 3men vg :p those creative ppl.. but I doubt anyone can solo but who knows after a while ppl manage to find a way

and you’re wrong, sorry to inform you that raids are mean to be challenging. if any combinaison of classes (with actual balance) could beat it, then it would not be challenging.

And this is the entire point of having an alternative, easier version.

You have not providing any facts that your way will require as much effort as normal raid. Your only argument is : it will take longuer, but you won’t convince anybody with that…

I’m not really sure what you’re looking for here.

Because that’s just a selfish reason without any logic behind ?

But “I don’t want you to have what I want because I only want people who do things my way to have it” is an even more selfish position. I don’t think self-interest should be a disqualifying factor. If there are two people, and one person says “I want what I want,” and the other says “I don’t want you to have what you want,” then the latter is the more selfish of the two.

if everyone can have what they want, what’s the point of playing the game anymore.

Well that already applies to the game. Everyone can already have whatever they want, and it seems to work out. Nobody is asking for handouts here, it would still require time and effort to achieve, it would still give the player reason to log in and spend many hours working towards his goal, it would just provide a reasonable path to that goal for players who are not served by the current raiding system.

You don’t care about what other players want, as long as you have what you want.

You insisting on this repeatedly doesn’t make it any more accurate than the first time you said it.

You look like a small boy in a candy shop, wanting everything and not understanding that you have to pay to have something and throwing a tantrum because he can’t have what he wants…

And you are the same way, the only difference being that you were already handed the candy you wanted.

i did, and i don’t know what’s more in raid…a cinematic yes, but everyone can have access to it in a cleared instance.

In a game, story is more than just cutscenes and journals, the story is also everything that happens in between. If you just want to watch story then why even play? Just watch let’s plays.

but the element you dislike ARE part of the raid. remove them, and you just have a 10 men dungeon…But if you want a 10 men dungeon, fine, you’ll have the same dungeon reward then (exotic and no better).

That’s a nonsensical arbitrary rule that you insist upon because you want to horde the rewards for yourself (and for people exactly like you). There’s absolutely no reason for that restriction. At least we are making progress though, in that you now agree that their can be easy mode raids, just so long as they don’t provide raid loot. That’s a step forward, at least.

Ohoni, ill give counter to this, pls I don’t want to world completion just for craft legendary, it takes hours and hours and I’m sick of it. Provide alternate way or let me ‘buy’ world completion with tokens or w/e

Sure. If it were within my power to grant you that, I would, and I have always encouraged the developers to provide those options.

Also pls stop forcing us to do other content. I dun wanna spend 12 hrs realistically doing wvw for their stupid gift, it’s waste of time and I have no fun

Exactly.

But if u hand me 6 diff precursors, ill accept ur argument and take ur side. I do really want them so I can sell thm to make profit, u should send it to me for this reason alone.

You’re making an argument that I should hand you something of mine because you want it. That doesn’t have anything to do with the argument I’m making, because I’m not suggesting taking anything away from anyone. If your argument is that the game should provide more and better methods for you to earn your own precursors, then I fully agree with you, there should be. The current methods are either too RNG or too filled with expensive mats. The current Precursor achievement paths would be good if not for the massive “dump thousands of logs into the furnace” phases.

Replace the term ‘raids’ as u put it with any other content each and every person doesn’t like doing, like WvW, PvP, and even open world PvE (tho ill never understand why). Congrats, u are the winner of this is my most opinionated and steadfast desire. Jump on the bandwagon and join the thousand other ppl who are dissatisfied with content they don’t enjoy pls

Agreed. I want all of those players to have satisfying conclusions. This is just the issue I personally believe is most important, so it’s where I’m spending my time and effort. That doesn’t erase their discussions.

So there is no way that you as an individual are going to find such a challenge fun or engaging, you might ragequit after few attempts and never comes back. That’s just ur personality, and there’s nothing wrong with that. There are tons of other players who would feel the same way as u, and it’s neither their fault or the content’s fault. For instance, u don’t blame the olympics for being tough to get into, or requiring countless hours and hours of training and practice to get to that lvl.. u accept u are just not good enough and move on. This is the way the real world works as well, unfortunate as it may be in some cases

Except that we’re talking about a game, not the real world, and it works however the developers choose to make it work, and they can change those rules at any time, and they should do that if it leads to greater overall player happiness.

Without practice, where is success? Like learning a language by urself, no one is forcing u to do it but u are only doing it to better yourself. There is no ‘reward’ except feeling of self-fulfillment, and the excitement and fun that u are expecting comes later, when u figure out how to beat the boss mechanics without downing and realise u have help and rly contributed to ur group.

And that’s great, if it works that way for you, but if that’s all true, then why would you need exclusive rewards? Your reward is that you managed to achieve it, to beat that boss, so why would you also, on top of that, require a shiny exclusive item that nobody else can have? Also, why would having an easier mode take anything away from you? Someone beating the boss on easy doesn’t in any way reduce the accomplishment of you beating him on hard, you’re still a special snowflake for having managed that, because everyone understands that it’s a more difficult challenge.

Before clearing content, you have to Master it. Do you think people beat VG in one night ? (OK some guilds did it). My guildies and I we beat it, I think, after our 3rd night on it. Now, we beat it everytime, first time. So ofc wiping and learning are part of raiding. Then after, you can clear raids. And btw, all of this was fun.

I highlighted the most important part there. “all of this was fun.” For you. You had fun doing it, which was great, but can you understand that someone else could have had exactly the same experience you did, and none of it would be fun for them? Why do you believe that this player should have to do the same things you did, if you had fun doing them, and they wouldn’t? Why do you believe that if they don’t do this, that they should be punished by not being able to get the things that they want?

Good news: you can do things you do enjoy instead, which is how I play.

I do that, but the way things are currently structured, that means I’ll never be able to get Envoy armor, which is also not fun. I should not have to choose between the lesser of two evils, I should be able to play areas that I enjoy, and ALSO progress towards the goals that I choose for myself.

Instead of arguing that ANet should design raids to make you happy, how about if you offer suggestions for what sort of rewards you would like for the parts of the game you do enjoy.

I have, Envoy armor.

And this is the entire point of having an alternative, easier version.

What did you not understand with the dev post saying “no easy mode raid”?

You have not providing any facts that your way will require as much effort as normal raid. Your only argument is : it will take longuer, but you won’t convince anybody with that…

I’m not really sure what you’re looking for here.

But “I don’t want you to have what I want because I only want people who do things my way to have it” is an even more selfish position. I don’t think self-interest should be a disqualifying factor. If there are two people, and one person says “I want what I want,” and the other says “I don’t want you to have what you want,” then the latter is the more selfish of the two.

not at all, the selfish one is the greedy one ready do destroy an entire game mode for his only interest. I’m not working for me, i’m working for raiders. YOU’re only working for yourself, you don’t care about what other people defending easy mode want (because many of them understand that’s it’s foolish to ask same rewards as normal raids)

if everyone can have what they want, what’s the point of playing the game anymore.

Well that already applies to the game. Everyone can already have whatever they want, and it seems to work out. Nobody is asking for handouts here, it would still require time and effort to achieve, it would still give the player reason to log in and spend many hours working towards his goal, it would just provide a reasonable path to that goal for players who are not served by the current raiding system.

You insisting on this repeatedly doesn’t make it any more accurate than the first time you said it.

I learnt that from you. It’s been many months you’re saying the same thing over and over, and you’re still so wrong.

And you are the same way, the only difference being that you were already handed the candy you wanted.

In a game, story is more than just cutscenes and journals, the story is also everything that happens in between. If you just want to watch story then why even play? Just watch let’s plays.

sorry to inform you again (but it’s normal, you don’t know how are raids in gw2), that story in raid ARE cutscenes and journals…because between that, you just fight some boss. That’s all.

That’s a nonsensical arbitrary rule that you insist upon because you want to horde the rewards for yourself (and for people exactly like you). There’s absolutely no reason for that restriction. At least we are making progress though, in that you now agree that their can be easy mode raids, just so long as they don’t provide raid loot. That’s a step forward, at least.

I don’t want to horde for myself, i’m more than happy to bring more people, even new people, in raid. The problem is that you have decided that you dislike raid, and you prefer to fight in forum instead of doing some raid. I guess you prefer beeing here actually.
I’m still against easy mode raid, btw. I totally agree with the dev position, you should do the same btw.

I highlighted the most important part there. “all of this was fun.” For you. You had fun doing it, which was great, but can you understand that someone else could have had exactly the same experience you did, and none of it would be fun for them? Why do you believe that this player should have to do the same things you did, if you had fun doing them, and they wouldn’t? Why do you believe that if they don’t do this, that they should be punished by not being able to get the things that they want?

I do that, but the way things are currently structured, that means I’ll never be able to get Envoy armor, which is also not fun. I should not have to choose between the lesser of two evils, I should be able to play areas that I enjoy, and ALSO progress towards the goals that I choose for myself.

But i can understand that some people are not finding fun in that. But too bad, they can’t have the rewards associated. If they want the reward so bad, they can do the content. People like you have a choice to make, between raiding or not having rewards. That’s the game, deal with it. If you’re not happy with that, too bad. They are many people different from you that will choose to raid, and other that will understand that they won’t have raid rewards.

What did you not understand with the dev post saying “no easy mode raid”?

“Before clearing content, you have to Master it. Do you think people beat VG in one night ? (OK some guilds did it). My guildies and I we beat it, I think, after our 3rd night on it. Now, we beat it everytime, first time. So ofc wiping and learning are part of raiding. Then after, you can clear raids. "

not at all, the selfish one is the greedy one ready do destroy an entire game mode for his only interest.

True, but that’s not what I’m doing, so it’s a moot point.

YOU’re only working for yourself, you don’t care about what other people defending easy mode want (because many of them understand that’s it’s foolish to ask same rewards as normal raids)

No, I’m working for what I think would be best for the game as a whole.

sorry to inform you again (but it’s normal, you don’t know how are raids in gw2), that story in raid ARE cutscenes and journals…because between that, you just fight some boss. That’s all.

And that fight is PART of the story. Take any action movie you’ve seen. Cut out every action scene, so that all that’s left are the ones where people are standing around talking. Would you still say that the movie is the same?

I don’t want to horde for myself, i’m more than happy to bring more people, even new people, in raid.

You’re only willing to allow people access if they play by the same rules that make you happy. You’re unwilling to give people access if they play by the rules that make them happy. Why do you insist that other players have to play the way you enjoy.

The problem is that you have decided that you dislike raid, and you prefer to fight in forum instead of doing some raid.

I didn’t decide that I dislike raiding, I understand that I dislike raiding. I cannot choose to enjoy raiding in its current form, it is just an unalterable part of who I am that I am incapable of enjoying the sort of “wipe and reset” experience that you enjoy.

But i can understand that some people are not finding fun in that. But too bad, they can’t have the rewards associated. If they want the reward so bad, they can do the content. People like you have a choice to make, between raiding or not having rewards. That’s the game, deal with it. If you’re not happy with that, too bad. They are many people different from you that will choose to raid, and other that will understand that they won’t have raid rewards.

But what benefit is there to anyone to force players to make that choice? If you enjoy raiding, and want the reward, then that’s great for you, win/win, but why should other players be forced to choose between missing out on the reward or wasting their time on content they can’t enjoy? Why should the best they can hope for be “win/lose?” Why is it unreasonable to ask for a win/win scenario for those players as well, if you’re allowed to have one?

Once again, I would strongly urge Anet developers to take a few minutes and look at the discussions people are having outside of this forum about this topic, such as the community comments on the below:

http://massivelyop.com/2016/11/18/guild-wars-2-addresses-raiding-tiers-and-accessibility/

http://dulfy.net/2016/11/18/gw2-arenanet-on-raid-accessibility-and-tiers/

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/5dldnt/crystal_reid_about_raid_accesibility_and_tiers/?sort=confidence

As well as some historic/older posts:

http://massivelyop.com/2015/11/17/guild-wars-2-heart-of-thorns-raids-waller-interview/

And, of course, the conversation we tried to have during the CDI -

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/cdi/CDI-Guilds-Raiding/first

Add to this all of the conversations and (mostly negative) reactions related to balance changes. (which, again, I believe will never really be fixed without gutting profession diversity and fun mechanics – the answer has to come from the encounter design side)

The more ArenaNet tries to resist this idea – or, even worse, halfway do it (add a mix of easier and harder encounters to the same raid wing with no thought to order or sequence), the more both existing and potential players looking for a more casual experience will pull away from the game. The primary appeal of GW2 was that it didn’t take itself as seriously as the other AAA MMOs out there.

It was a place where the player and community experience was always center stage. Yes, there was a variety of different content modes, but there was always a way for players of all skill levels to enjoy the content. Even things like Arah explorable and Twilight Arbor were carefully designed to make sure gear or builds didn’t limit chances of success.

A lot of people have brought this up time and again – in the examples I link above and elsewhere. They are often adamant about it – to the point of arguing at times – because that impression of GW2 as the game for everyone – in all areas – has always been important to them – in fact, in cases such as mine (which is hardly unique), it is why they came to GW2 in the first place.

Raids – in the format they are being presented – are starting to move us in a direction many of us don’t want to see the game go – one where select content/fight experiences/stories/etc are reserved for a small subset of players (notice I didn’t link reward – that isn’t what I’m talking about here).

I hate seeing GW2 go down that path. I hate seeing it become another me-too MMO where the focus is less about the community and more about marketing buzzwords. That is why this topic will not – and should not – go away any time soon.

Ohoni.6057:

and you’re wrong, sorry to inform you that raids are mean to be challenging. if any combinaison of classes (with actual balance) could beat it, then it would not be challenging.

And this is the entire point of having an alternative, easier version.

This is just an opinion, whereas his is based on hard-set facts. You are allowed to have ur own opinion, but no one has to listen to you.

Whereas everything he has said is truth, thus not subjective.

Because that’s just a selfish reason without any logic behind ?

But “I don’t want you to have what I want because I only want people who do things my way to have it” is an even more selfish position. I don’t think self-interest should be a disqualifying factor. If there are two people, and one person says “I want what I want,” and the other says “I don’t want you to have what you want,” then the latter is the more selfish of the two.

Then you are the latter one. You refused to let me have what I wanted to ask for, even if u had it. You more or less told me "I don’t want u to have what u want (bc its mine, u can’t have it!). So whos the more selfish one here, me bc I wanted something, or u telling me I couldn’t have it?

if everyone can have what they want, what’s the point of playing the game anymore.

Well that already applies to the game. blah blah

Stopped reading after ur first errenous statement, literally ur first words.
Reason: you refuse to give me what I want. I don’t care that it’s yours, u never specified what were the limitations to what u could wish for. I want what I want, the only person denying me this is you, Ohoni. gimme my precursor, and ill side with u on this

I also want a statue of me erected in the middle of LA, doesn’t mean I’m gonna get it. Unless u want to convince me otherwise?

You don’t care about what other players want, as long as you have what you want.

You insisting on this repeatedly doesn’t make it any more accurate than the first time you said it.

And you insisting on ur mythical easy mode raid solution doesn’t make u any less hypocritical than the first time you said it.

but the element you dislike ARE part of the raid. remove them, and you just have a 10 men dungeon…But if you want a 10 men dungeon, fine, you’ll have the same dungeon reward then (exotic and no better).

That’s a nonsensical arbitrary rule that you insist upon because you want to horde the rewards for yourself (and for people exactly like you). There’s absolutely no reason for that restriction.

His rule is sensible and uses logic to prove his point, whereas urs is worse than arbitrary as it is a straw man argument that even u don’t even intend seriously. Com’on even if urs is essentially a tin foil hat argument, even u don’t (can’t) believe in what ur saying.

Ohoni, ill give counter to this, pls I don’t want to world completion just for craft legendary, it takes hours and hours and I’m sick of it. Provide alternate way or let me ‘buy’ world completion with tokens or w/e

Sure. If it were within my power to grant you that, I would, and I have always encouraged the developers to provide those options.

I guess by now ur used to things flying over ur head, since this one sure does

But if u hand me 6 diff precursors, ill accept ur argument and take ur side. I do really want them so I can sell thm to make profit, u should send it to me for this reason alone.

You’re making an argument that I should hand you something of mine because you want it. That doesn’t have anything to do with the argument I’m making, because I’m not suggesting taking anything away from anyone.

You’re over thinking this.. I want what I want, so I should have it. Isn’t that ur whole argument word for word? I never mentioned or made any argument. I only asked for something, and by doing so only used urs against u.

So u are arguing with yourself now.

Player A wants item C, it is irrelevant whether or not player B has dibs on it. Player B has to cough it up regardless and mail it to player A, since he has proclaimed that he wants it

Besides, you never suggested that you couldn’t take anything away from someone either. Saying it after the fact is like hesitating and going back on ur word. This proves the argument u are making is not sound then

Blaeys.3102:

Raids – in the format they are being presented – are starting to move us in a direction many of us don’t want to see the game go – one where select content/fight experiences/stories/etc are reserved for a small subset of players (notice I didn’t link reward – that isn’t what I’m talking about here).

Anet added item levels and instance attunements?

Blaeys.3102:

I hate seeing GW2 go down that path. I hate seeing it become another me-too MMO where the focus is less about the community and more about marketing buzzwords. That is why this topic will not – and should not – go away any time soon.

I really doubt it’s going down a certain path rather than it’s branching out and alot of people don’t like that certain branch.

The game really needs something in between raids and normal content. Something like what dungeons still are. instead of demanding that raids change, adding content to bridge to raids would be a much better solution.

That said, some good points imo are:
A permanent explorable finished raid instance wouldn’t be a bad idea for those willing. People already use LFG to do that, I don’t see how that can’t simply be something that players can pick regardless of being dependant on other players.

A constant reminder of no unlocked mastery XP drain, doesn’t help the situation.
This could be fixed by either unlocking the raid masteries or fixing the entire problem all together by letting people always have the experience drain in between mastery point acquisition.
TBH, I don’t understand why one completely unrelated boss automatically grants you the ability to unlock ALL the raid masteries, even if they’re part of a totally different wing. Even worse is that it turns it into a prerequisite for certain wings, as doing that without those masteries makes it hard to find a group all together. While it could be like that by design, finding a better experience by trying different raidwings would make it more accessible, especially as the mastery gate feels fairly arbitrary beyond the first boss-kill. People who raid have very little use for it, people who don’t like raiding are globally excluded until they raid.
It’s just a dysfunctional carrot on a stick, which mostly frustrates people if they can’t get it. Simply entering a raid could unlock the mastery. Or lowering it to the first 10 or 25 %. of a raid encounter would make it so people have at least tried, and that is already hard enough for some people. Though using the mastery system as that carrot feels out of place. So maybe something inherent to raids would be much more logical, than annoying people through a blinking light on their dashboard.

Weekly reset adds extra pressure for those wanting to progress, it could be an idea to let players opt for no weekly reset (including rewards obviously) and let them continue as they continue the next week. It would mean that the raid is more structured into bosses rather than one whole wing I suppose. However to unlock that players would find their specific boss more easily, and workarounds are again already available either way through openers. Though it could be controversial.

Sykper.6583:

@nagr,

I am more or less taking the position to find the best possible resolution to this discussion, without having to impact the already slow pace which Raid wings are being delivered. Forcing the raid devs to create any other mode of their raid content is legitimately doubling their work load, which includes everything from creation to bug maintenance. Remember all the bugs that made I believe Salvation Pass inaccessible? That’s on the raid devs to work on, that delays content.

Well actualy the position u are taking is that there is no need to have any resolution to this discussion at all. You are dead set against tiers in raids as well as easy mode raids, both understandable but there’s no idea being propositioned that u are for either. This is bc u don’t care yourself whether or not there is a training or story mode for raids, as that’s not your main concern. Again that u are prioritising in thes situations is understandable, since last thing you want is raid content delayed – say from 3 months to 6 months. That’s unconsionable

However ur opinion of ‘doubling’ their workload in this case is not legitimate anymore, since u have no way of knowing that (nor do I). They would not be changing anything under what I propositioned, other than fiddling with the AI. The AI can also be modeled after each other for similar fights, such as VG and sloth. Why do I draw this comparison? Both require AI to travel to a specific marked location, such as greens or the next shroom in line. So they can recycle such mechanics once they build it once.

In creating new raid wings, reason it take so long is to brainstorm as well as actually create the working environments and models, then tweak some things like bugs and possible exploits that might be used. They don’t have to do anything like that here. They just need to build upon their passable AI they alrdy have, reuse the ones from personal story maybe, and test out bugs and possible fixes for them. The last bit is prob going to be the most time-intensive. So why not have a ‘test run’ patch, training mode with no rewards just to see if any bugs get reported? Once they get feedback, they can begin to determine some baseline for the reward systems (or questionable need for it). Though I agree it would add on considerable amt of time, it prob won’t be close to the the numbers that u are claiming

Sykper.6583:

That being said…

Wouldn’t it be better for your suggestion to implement more options in another area, like the Special Forces Training Area? Been thinking on it for a while, that Training Golem has a lot of potential. I know it’s been asked in a different thread, but more options such as ‘CC Training’, or as you put it, ‘Tank Training’ could be put on that AI Golem.

Is that not a better idea?

It might be helpful in theory, but in practice it might fall apart. How do u animate (in that limited space), sloth moving around in poison field or xera with her harmful patterns? It could be dumbed down and simplified I agree but even then it only solves one problem that few of us have (learning to tank specific encounters). It still does nothing to redress any of the other issues, like the fact that exp in matthias means u need hands-on experience, not looking up vids or guides which avail u close to nothing. You need actually training, and not merely that but training without a geoup. Because there is nothing at all that says u learn at the same pace as rest of your group does.

Just as in any non-deterministic system, there is no counting on who u end up with. The group then becomes limited by the weakest or most wool-headed person, thus ur learning time is dilated to equate with this individual’s. That is just not acceptable for training, where importance must be placed on the individual who needs it. They alone should prove the limiting factor for themselves, since it alrdy wastes a gratuitous amount of time when it comes to forming groups with randoms to practice an encounter with. The first person u must learn to trust is urself, and that’s simply not plausible with the system as is

Then you are the latter one. You refused to let me have what I wanted to ask for, even if u had it. You more or less told me "I don’t want u to have what u want (bc its mine, u can’t have it!). So whos the more selfish one here, me bc I wanted something, or u telling me I couldn’t have it?

I’m sorry, what have I ever tried to prevent you from having?

Reason: you refuse to give me what I want. I don’t care that it’s yours, u never specified what were the limitations to what u could wish for. I want what I want, the only person denying me this is you, Ohoni. gimme my precursor, and ill side with u on this

Oh, are you talking about you asking me for a precursor? That’s an entirely nonsense analogy. In that case, you are asking me to give up something of mine so that you can have it. I’m not asking that anyone give up anything. Basically, let’s say I have an apple. you ask that I give you my apple, so that now I would have none. Maybe I say yes, maybe no, but I’d be justified in refusing, because you have no right to deprive me of my apple. But let’s say I had the magical ability to infinitely duplicate my apple, I could give you an apple, and keep my own apple, losing nothing in the process. In that case, I could not be justified in not giving you the apple, because I would lose nothing in doing so.

That’s the situation here, allowing more players to access raids in a way that they would enjoy, more people being able to acquire Legendary armor in a manner they would enjoy, it takes nothing away from anyone. The only “cost” to anyone in the process is the added effort ANet would have to spend in producing it, and it would be fair for them to refuse on those grounds, but I believe it would also be in their business interests to invest that time and effort on a product that would be good for their customers.

I don’t need, or request your permission in this.

And you insisting on ur mythical easy mode raid solution doesn’t make u any less hypocritical than the first time you said it.

True, but since I wasn’t at all hypocritical at any phase in the process, I’m content with that.

You’re over thinking this.. I want what I want, so I should have it. Isn’t that ur whole argument word for word?

I’m talking about what the developers can provide. If I had infinite Precursors, I’d give you one, sure. But I don’t, so the burden of providing you one would be less than reasonable from my perspective.

Now I think what you’re getting at is that the developers need to provide goals, and that if they just hand players everything then there would be nothing to strive for. And I agree with this principle. I’m not asking to be handed anything. I’m asking for alternative methods to earning something, because the existing methods are not reasonable paths for me.

Think of it this way, say there is a prize that is available on top of a thirty foot high platform. The method of scaling to that platform is a double-steep staircase. You’re a reasonably fit person, you can climb this staircase easily enough, and it’s literally no sweat to you, so you see this as a reasonable cost. But say another person has really bad knees, and lifting them high enough to climb those steps is significantly painful to him. He might be able to crawl his way up to the top of those steps, but each step would be agonizing for him, far less tolerable than it was for you.

This person asks if perhaps they could put in a ramp at a shallower angle. It would have to be longer to reach the same height, but he wouldn’t have to lift his knees as high and it would be far less painful to him. You’re saying “No, never! I climbed those stairs, you should too!” I just don’t see that as a reasonable position.

Player A wants item C, it is irrelevant whether or not player B has dibs on it. Player B has to cough it up regardless and mail it to player A, since he has proclaimed that he wants it

Nope, because player B doesn’t have dibs on anything. Player A is asking for something that Player B has no right to decide who gets it or not.

The game really needs something in between raids and normal content. Something like what dungeons still are. instead of demanding that raids change, adding content to bridge to raids would be a much better solution.

Are you presuming that this new content would cause more players to eventually start raiding, having passed through the intermediate content? Give up on that, raids are not for everyone, that is not the goal here. The goal is to provide options for players who NEVER want to do the current variety of raids, but that don’t want to miss out on the lore and rewards currently associated with them.

I swore I was gonna stop, but the stupidity posted here is addicting, I want it to stop.
So Ohoni, from your 400 posts what I can gather is that the solution would be this. I pay money like you and everyone else so why don’t I just get a legendary of my choice, Envoy Armor and god knows what other cool goodies just for logging on? That is basically what you want. yea, you are dressing it up like lipstick on a pig but the essence is just that, you want what others work for without doing the work. Man I bet you were fun in High School, or still are.

Edit….Just want to be clear though that I am not attacking you as a person, that’s not on especially here in this format but just that what you are asking is a tad out there mate, that’s all.

So Ohoni, from your 400 posts what I can gather is that the solution would be this. I pay money like you and everyone else so why don’t I just get a legendary of my choice, Envoy Armor and god knows what other cool goodies just for logging on?

Nope. Missed it by a fairly considerable distance. Maybe try reading through them again.

i do think OPs suggestion is a good idea

but Tier 1 raids should basically give no rewards apart from gold maybe but nothing raid specific yet since it would be way too easy
—>Tier 1 just serves as a practice mode only

Tier 2 could give a few magnetite shards and gold but no Legendary Insights yet and no chance on raid specific skin/minipet drops

Tier 3 is the only Tier that should allow progress on the Legendary Collections and has full rewards and drop chances on everything

This way new/insecure players can slowly try to get better and learn and work their way up without just getting an easy way for the rewards
And Veterans who already earned their rewards at the intended difficulty for raids dont get those rewards devalued …so none of them would have to be unhappy about a feature like this coming to the game

Maybe it would be enough to only split the Raid difficulty into 2 Tiers:
1 practice mode with no rewards (apart from gold maybe)
1 normal mode with all raid specific rewards, progress for Legendary armor, etc

Orangensaft.7139:

i do think OPs suggestion is a good idea

but Tier 1 raids should basically give no rewards apart from gold maybe but nothing raid specific yet since it would be way too easy
—>Tier 1 just serves as a practice mode only

Tier 2 could give a few magnetite shards and gold but no Legendary Insights yet and no chance on raid specific skin/minipet drops

Tier 3 is the only Tier that should allow progress on the Legendary Collections and has full rewards and drop chances on everything

This way new/insecure players can slowly try to get better and learn and work their way up without just getting an easy way for the rewards
And Veterans who already earned their rewards at the intended difficulty for raids dont get those rewards devalued …so none of them would have to be unhappy about a feature like this coming to the game

Maybe it would be enough to only split the Raid difficulty into 2 Tiers:
1 practice mode with no rewards (apart from gold maybe)
1 normal mode with all raid specific rewards, progress for Legendary armor, etc

FINALLY!!! You nailed mate. that would work really well and is along the lines of what many of us have stated. I for one don’t find the raids hard, just the mentality behind forming a group. But well put!

This way new/insecure players can slowly try to get better and learn and work their way up without just getting an easy way for the rewards

People need to abandon the idea of “people working their way up to the current raids.” That is not a thing. People who want to raid, raid. The alternatives need to exist for people who want to do the alternative and then STOP, and will never “advance” to the current raids. The alternatives need to be designed so that those players are satisfied, not left wanting more, because hardcore raids are not for everyone, and never will be.

People need to abandon the idea of “people working their way up to the current raids.” That is not a thing. People who want to raid, raid. The alternatives need to exist for people who want to do the alternative and then STOP, and will never “advance” to the current raids. The alternatives need to be designed so that those players are satisfied, not left wanting more, because hardcore raids are not for everyone, and never will be.

People need to abandon the idea of having raid rewards without raiding. This is not a thing. People who trully want these rewards are raiding, point. Stop asking for “easy mode raid” when you only want “easy raid rewards”. You’re just hypocrit. Everyone know what you trully want.

nagr.1593:

But “I don’t want you to have what I want because I only want people who do things my way to have it” is an even more selfish position. I don’t think self-interest should be a disqualifying factor. If there are two people, and one person says “I want what I want,” and the other says “I don’t want you to have what you want,” then the latter is the more selfish of the two.

Then you are the latter one. You refused to let me have what I wanted to ask for, even if u had it. You more or less told me "I don’t want u to have what u want (bc its mine, u can’t have it!). So whos the more selfish one here, me bc I wanted something, or u telling me I couldn’t have it?

if everyone can have what they want, what’s the point of playing the game anymore.

Well that already applies to the game. blah blah

Stopped reading after ur first errenous statement, literally ur first words.
Reason: you refuse to give me what I want. I don’t care that it’s yours, u never specified what were the limitations to what u could wish for. I want what I want, the only person denying me this is you, Ohoni. gimme my precursor, and ill side with u on this

I also want a statue of me erected in the middle of LA, doesn’t mean I’m gonna get it. Unless u want to convince me otherwise?

but the element you dislike ARE part of the raid. remove them, and you just have a 10 men dungeon…But if you want a 10 men dungeon, fine, you’ll have the same dungeon reward then (exotic and no better).

That’s a nonsensical arbitrary rule that you insist upon because you want to horde the rewards for yourself (and for people exactly like you). There’s absolutely no reason for that restriction.

His rule is sensible and uses logic to prove his point, whereas urs is worse than arbitrary as it is a straw man argument that even u don’t even intend seriously. Com’on even if urs is essentially a tin foil hat argument, even u don’t (can’t) believe in what ur saying.

Ohoni, ill give counter to this, pls I don’t want to world completion just for craft legendary, it takes hours and hours and I’m sick of it. Provide alternate way or let me ‘buy’ world completion with tokens or w/e

Sure. If it were within my power to grant you that, I would, and I have always encouraged the developers to provide those options.

I guess by now ur used to things flying over ur head, since this one sure does

But if u hand me 6 diff precursors, ill accept ur argument and take ur side. I do really want them so I can sell thm to make profit, u should send it to me for this reason alone.

You’re making an argument that I should hand you something of mine because you want it. That doesn’t have anything to do with the argument I’m making, because I’m not suggesting taking anything away from anyone.

You’re over thinking this.. I want what I want, so I should have it. Isn’t that ur whole argument word for word? I never mentioned or made any argument. I only asked for something, and by doing so only used urs against u.

So u are arguing with yourself now.

So what again are you loseing by having a easier mode that other players can complete?
This whole reply yours is just a silly derail to get thread locked am I right?

U still have your normal mode that you dont have trubble to complete already and can continue to play.

Me and Ohoni never asked you to provide us with said easy raid did we, so why are you asking them to give you precursors?

Edit I agree with the last mate you are argueing for the sake of argueing right?

Hypairion.9210:

Wait……so the definition of raiding is beating your head on ONE boss for hours if not days with no progress to beating it? And that’s fun? Because to my knowledge when people talk about raiding, its ALWAYS about beating the bosses and getting the loot. Same with fractals and dungeons. Or do people really like taking 4-6 hours to down one fractal or dungeon? Because it doesn’t seem fun. (In fact its not because that’s one reason why I got turned off from those game content types, is because they took 4-6 hours to do.) (And yes I have cleared everything in less then 5-10 minutes, but I can’t carry 4 other people who don’t have a clue who to play their class, or rotation or gear, let alone 9 in raids.) So the question might be a bit sarcastic, but then again sarcasm is a form of anger, and its a bit maddening you are saying people should be content with…..well just beating there head on a boss for days with next to no reward and should not complain. Correct me if I’m wrong and I misunderstood you.

Before clearing content, you have to Master it. Do you think people beat VG in one night ? (OK some guilds did it). My guildies and I we beat it, I think, after our 3rd night on it. Now, we beat it everytime, first time. So ofc wiping and learning are part of raiding. Then after, you can clear raids. And btw, all of this was fun. Sometimes frustrating too, but the first kill is always special. And when you becomes really traîned, then you can try with different comp, different builds, low man etc…but there is progression in raid. You start bad and are lost before the boss, and at the end it’s easy.
Do you really think people beat the boss first time ?

Yes? Or are all the videos of first time clears wrong and lying? Also, i learned the mechanics of the fight (VG specifically) within 1-3 trys at it, but the other people I was trying with couldn’t learn as fast as me, and it was frusterating. The only reason i got the kill was filling in for some other group. Which…..was kinda sad I couldn’t get it earlier, because it was easier then I thought. In fact, in the group I finally got the kill on I wasn’t the one messing up, it was the people with 100+ LI and I only had none. Which…..I mean they could have done other bosses 100 times and NEVER done VG before…but…really is that real? Maybe rofl.

People need to abandon the idea of having raid rewards without raiding. This is not a thing. People who trully want these rewards are raiding, point. Stop asking for “easy mode raid” when you only want “easy raid rewards”. You’re just hypocrit. Everyone know what you trully want.

As I keep telling you, I want both, independently of each other, and securing one would not cause me to stop wanting the other. I’ll ask you to please stop lying about me.

nagr.1593:

Lakemine.3014:

Wait……so the definition of raiding is beating your head on ONE boss for hours if not days with no progress to beating it? And that’s fun? Because to my knowledge when people talk about raiding, its ALWAYS about beating the bosses and getting the loot. Same with fractals and dungeons. Or do people really like taking 4-6 hours to down one fractal or dungeon? Because it doesn’t seem fun.

It might not be fun, but it’s a challenge and if u don’t have a defeatist approach or mindset like I suspect that u might have, then u will accept the challenge and treat it accordingly. One of ur earlier posts said u took over 1 hour to solo the last story fight. It took me only 2nd try, the first I got taken by surprise with flight phase. Maybe 15min tops, whereas u are struggling on easy content alrdy.

So there is no way that you as an individual are going to find such a challenge fun or engaging, you might ragequit after few attempts and never comes back. That’s just ur personality, and there’s nothing wrong with that. There are tons of other players who would feel the same way as u, and it’s neither their fault or the content’s fault. For instance, u don’t blame the olympics for being tough to get into, or requiring countless hours and hours of training and practice to get to that lvl.. u accept u are just not good enough and move on. This is the way the real world works as well, unfortunate as it may be in some cases

So the question might be a bit sarcastic, but then again sarcasm is a form of anger, and its a bit maddening you are saying people should be content with…..well just beating there head on a boss for days with next to no reward and should not complain. Correct me if I’m wrong and I misunderstood you.

Without practice, where is success? Like learning a language by urself, no one is forcing u to do it but u are only doing it to better yourself. There is no ‘reward’ except feeling of self-fulfillment, and the excitement and fun that u are expecting comes later, when u figure out how to beat the boss mechanics without downing and realise u have help and rly contributed to ur group.

If u don’t think this circumstances were present before HoT, go learn to solo lupi and come back

Well….for Mordy to be honest, i didnt have the “META” stats, and was still not a master (still not really but good enough) at DD. And that was my first time ever doing it, after that I beat it first try every time on classes I rarely play, and lesser geared too.

Also….with learning the language alagory…..ok i learn it fast, but what about the other 9 people in the raid? What if they can’t learn it as fast or not even at all?

Sadly more or less your right in that I have that attatude, but….I am always at war with myself over it, so…..its kinda half and half. I mean who else runs through 300 runs of Sanctum Sprint JUST for AP? But whats sad, is even if im willing to spend time on something, it seems others are not, in that I have seen ALOT of rage quiters in dungeons, fractals and ecpecially raids. I guess maybe their attaude seeped over into my mental structure and I need to fight it more? But dang……kinda stupid when its a game and it works like real life lol. Then again…..kinda what happens when you put something on the internet, with people and having a currency system that has real world value. (Which i like and dislike for different reasons)

Thanks though!

As I keep telling you, I want both, independently of each other, and securing one would not cause me to stop wanting the other. I’ll ask you to please stop lying about me.

And as I keep telling you, there is no logical reason except beeing greedy and selfish to want both, especially normal raid rewards in a easier way. Do like all, work for it. You’re not Special, rewards don’t have to be given to you without you putting any effort (skill effort, not grinding effort…)

Yes? Or are all the videos of first time clears wrong and lying? Also, i learned the mechanics of the fight (VG specifically) within 1-3 trys at it, but the other people I was trying with couldn’t learn as fast as me, and it was frusterating. The only reason i got the kill was filling in for some other group. Which…..was kinda sad I couldn’t get it earlier, because it was easier then I thought. In fact, in the group I finally got the kill on I wasn’t the one messing up, it was the people with 100+ LI and I only had none. Which…..I mean they could have done other bosses 100 times and NEVER done VG before…but…really is that real? Maybe rofl.

I’m happy to read that even without much exp, you kill one boss. That means that raids are not that difficult, and so don’t need easier mode. Thank you.

And btw, first time clear means first time à group kill à boss…it doesn’t mean “at the first try”. They wiped before, because all mechanics are unknown at the beginning.

Ohoni.6057:

People need to abandon the idea of having raid rewards without raiding. This is not a thing. People who trully want these rewards are raiding, point. Stop asking for “easy mode raid” when you only want “easy raid rewards”. You’re just hypocrit. Everyone know what you trully want.

As I keep telling you, I want both, independently of each other, and securing one would not cause me to stop wanting the other. I’ll ask you to please stop lying about me.

ok, now you don’t have any smarts. They ARE NOT independent as a “raid reward” is what you, the player, gets from ….wait for it……..“RAIDING!”

Man, I really need to stop reading this crap…. I finally realized 5 pages back he’s a troll….ah well, still some good discussion in here, buried in amongst the crap.

And as I keep telling you, there is no logical reason except beeing greedy and selfish to want both, especially normal raid rewards in a easier way.

What sort of reason would you expect there to be for a player to want to enjoy the game he’s playing? You’re basically saying “you have fun the wrong way and you can’t prove otherwise!” There’s really no argument that could possibly be made, so I’m not sure why you seem surprised that there isn’t one.

ok, now you don’t have any smarts. They ARE NOT independent as a “raid reward” is what you, the player, gets from ….wait for it……..“RAIDING!”

/sigh no. There is nothing “raiding” about raid rewards, except that ANet have arbitrarily decided to put them behind raiding, for now. If raiding had never existed, we would still be getting Envoy armor from someplace. When the game came out, you could only earn Dungeon armor through Dungeons, now you can earn them through PvP tracks. Legendary Precursors were only random drops, now they also have Achievement quests. They open up new ways to earn things all the time.

If they choose to do so, they can make Envoy armor available anywhere in the game that they like. So, I want to see:

1. There should be easy mode raids to provide players a way to experience the raids without having to take on the significant challenges involved in the existing versions.

2. There should be alternate methods of earning Envoy/Experimental armor skins that do not requiring the existing raid difficulty.

They can do both of these as a single package, allowing players to progress towards the Envoy armor using the easy mode raids, or they can deliver each separately, providing a non-raid path to earning envoy armor elsewhere in the open world or something. Delivering only one of the two would be nice, an improvement over the current state, but I would still want them to address the other point as well.

Talindra.4958:

People need to understand you can’t expect to kill the boss without training. Why ? Bcos theres a lot of mechanics involve and each players has a specific task or tasks to get the team through. And if one person make mistakes that person can cause a wipe and restart. everyone needs to be good enough not saying pro but good enough and get his task/s done. it’s not like other content in the game where you can just jump in and get things done. That’s too easy and no challenge and no fun in that.

Emm… no? Even vanilla wow never had such an absurd requirement, and this is one of the main reasons why raiding population here floating near 5%. Wiping while “training” just because one person made a mistake is an absolutely absurd idea.

As an example only….WOW has Heroic raids and Heroic gear you get from doing them. They also have Mythic raids and you get the better Mythic gear from doing those. You DO NOT get Mythic gear from doing a heroic/normal raid, period.