Guild Wars 2

Yes, raids are challenging for everyone at first. But with the time that some players complaining have spent, they could have spent that time learning the raid and be well on their way to obtaining the armor.

Yes, but the point is, I have no interest in doing that, I would not enjoy myself doing it, and the end result would bring me little joy relative to the strife. “practice and git gud” may work out for you, I assure you it could NEVER work out for me, so I’m pursuing it my way, even if that happens to be a dead end.

if the pros can do all those lowmans (3 man vg by SC or all the other lowmans by other guilds, seen it?) or with kitten down gear, why should a organised group of 10 not being able to do it?

Again, you can talk about how pros can solo the raid or whatever all you like, it’s completely meaningless in the face of other players reporting that their groups are failing it. If raids are so easy, then make sure that those groups actually get through it. It doesn’t matter in the least how minimalist a high-end group can go, what matters is that everyone else can at least meet the minimum requirements for success.

This wouldn’t even be an issue without the enrage timers and OHKO attacks. If it were just a matter of “everyone beats it eventually, but some groups can clear it in 3 minutes with only two people,” well then that’s just them being impressive. But when plenty of people can’t beat it at all, it becomes a problem, regardless of how minimalist it’s possible for other players to beat it.

and yes, for me it is a huge problem wenn people get a shortcut through raids.
not because i don’t want that they don’t get any rewards. because i want that every player has to go through the same thing to get to the goal.

Which is very convenient for YOU, because you happen to ENJOY hardcore challenges, so you get to play exactly how YOU enjoy, and everyone else is forced to do the same if they want the rewards. But then in the post above you complained that you preferred the old HoT enemies, and were upset that you were being forced to play them how other people enjoyed them. It’s the same argument!

If you enjoy hard content, that’s great, I’m fine with them making hard content for you to play, so long as other players, who will NEVER enjoy hard content, are not given reason to miss out on not playing it. Don’t try to make other players play how you enjoy, just grow to accept that different players enjoy different styles, and they should be able to play how they want without missing out.

i don’t care if anyone does not enjoy hardcore content, his problem, dont play it.
i miss out on hot maps too becaues this kitten is too easy. i won’t get a single backpiece skin of those because i don’t play it.

if i want that stuff somewhen in the future, i have to force myself to play that and i won’t have any fun while doing it. do you think anyone cares about that? no. no one does. it is unimportant.

here some quotes, that is what anet wants:

Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns™, introduces the ultimate challenge: our first raid, which is made up of three distinct raid wings. Raids are 10-player, instanced, elite dungeon content that’s a challenge unlike anything we’ve previously released in Guild Wars 2. These raids are meant to put you and your teammates to the test and challenge you to grow your skills as Guild Wars 2 players. Raids are our answer to what skilled PvE players have to look forward to at endgame—the ultimate test to overcome and defeat.

Every raid starts with a group of 10 like-minded players. We feel that a group size of 10 works well with the core combat mechanics built into Guild Wars 2 and still gives you the thrill of coordination between your allies.

These puzzles, so to speak, will require focus on team coordination, communication, and both build and play roles.

And if you fail to fill these roles? You’re going to have a bad time. But don’t worry, as we’re leaving you a repair anvil at the entrance. You know—to collect your tears on.

…who are you to question the raid devs and the raid community with your kitten nobody wants to see or read?
honestly, just go away from this subforum and spam your kitten whereever you like.

can’t get the legendary armor? cry a bit in a corner or leave the game. k thx bai.
not our problem or fault that u are too bad at playing games & social skills to find likeminded people.

i don’t care if anyone does not enjoy hardcore content, his problem, dont play it.
i miss out on hot maps too becaues this kitten is too easy. i won’t get a single backpiece skin of those because i don’t play it.

And that’s fine, but don’t pretend that the two are equivalent. Being able to easily do something and just choosing not to is not equivalent to being incapable of doing something. I mean, even if I made an earnest effort to “git gud” at raiding, I think even you would agree it would take me a lot longer to earn Legendary Armor than it would take you to force yourself to complete an HoT map reward.

Personally though, I don’t WANT you to be unhappy. If you don’t want to run HoT maps, but want things that can only be found on them, I WANT for you to be happy, I WANT them to provide alternatives so that you can do something you enjoy (like raiding) and progress towards those goals. Can you say the same for me?

…who are you to question the raid devs and the raid community with your kitten nobody wants to see or read?

A paying customer.

Ohoni.6057:

Yes, raids are challenging for everyone at first. But with the time that some players complaining have spent, they could have spent that time learning the raid and be well on their way to obtaining the armor.

Yes, but the point is, I have no interest in doing that, I would not enjoy myself doing it, and the end result would bring me little joy relative to the strife. “practice and git gud” may work out for you, I assure you it could NEVER work out for me, so I’m pursuing it my way, even if that happens to be a dead end.

Then don’t do raids. Not all content will appeal to every player. Raids were developed for those that wanted a challenge which core GW2 wasn’t offering.

Then don’t do raids. Not all content will appeal to every player. Raids were developed for those that wanted a challenge which core GW2 wasn’t offering.

I feel like we’re looping back around here, and that if you’d read and respected my previous comments you would not have said this, but to repeat myself,

1. While I can never enjoy raids in their current form, there are elements of the raid, elements that would be present in an easy mode variation on the form, which would appeal to me very much. Because I would enjoy such a mode, and believe that many other players would enjoy such a mode, I advocate that they consider spending the time making it. Given the option of BOTH easy and hard mode, players who prefer hard could fairly choose to continue playing it as much as they like, while players who would prefer easy would then have an option that is not currently available.

2. Regardless of #1, ANet have chosen to lock rather significant rewards behind these raids, so even though a player has no interest in the content itself, no interest in the challenge that it offers, they can reasonably have great interest in those rewards. There should be a way for these players to work to earn those rewards, which do not require them to tackle content that they find repulsive. And yes, if you want to raise a “but X content doesn’t offer Y rewards so raids. . .” argument, two wrongs do not make a right, and if X content doesn’t offer Y rewards and you’d like it to, argue FOR that, it is no argument against this.

maddoctor.2738:

Second: I take some bosses from one of the WoW raids, that also have a guide. Most WoW guides have a very nice sector called “Differences From Normal Mode”. It’s eye opening to this!

For those who do not want to read any, the differences between Normal and Heroic versions usually are:
A) Bosses in Heroic do more damage and have more HP
B) Bosses in Heroic have completely NEW abilities

Some rare bosses have improved abilities so players can’t “cheese” them, as in ignore the mechanics of the fight by various means, including a soft enrage timer if things aren’t done properly. But those are very very few indeed. The vast majority is an HP/damage scale and some EXTRA abilities. No changes to existing abilities whatsoever, no faster projectiles, no more people required to touch certain areas, no increase in attack speed, no nothing else.

I only checked some raid bosses in Siege of Orgrimmar in a random guide. Feel free to check some other Raids and find an encounter in which the actual skills and abilities of the bosses are changed. I won’t bother to check every single boss of every single raid, checking a few is enough to prove how bosses Scale in WoW

Yes, and even with NEW abilities it works, because importance of being accustomed to encounter is HUGE, even if it have some differences. Amazing, eh?

Rednik.3809:

Yes, and even with NEW abilities it works, because importance of being accustomed to encounter is HUGE, even if it have some differences. Amazing, eh?

The majority of actual raiding guilds don’t even touch the easier modes and the vast majority of players who do play the easier modes do not touch the higher difficulty modes. That’s very easy to check if you see the world first clears are on hard mode versions while the number of people who finish the easy modes are a lot more than the people who do the harder modes (no shock there). Or you were talking about something else because I think I got lost around there.

And I never said new abilities wouldn’t work, they can add (or remove) abilities from raid bosses and call them easy or hard mode any time they wish. But in your version of Easy Mode you posted in the first pages (or was it in the other thread) you didn’t exactly do that but instead nerfed the current abilities to the ground.

The majority of actual raiding guilds don’t even touch the easier modes and the vast majority of players who do play the easier modes do not touch the higher difficulty modes. That’s very easy to check if you see the world first clears are on hard mode versions while the number of people who finish the easy modes are a lot more than the people who do the harder modes (no shock there).

I’m not really sure what your point is, but everything you said in there sounds really great. Let’s import that all to GW2, stat!

Ohoni.6057:

I’m not really sure what your point is, but everything you said in there sounds really great. Let’s import that all to GW2, stat!

Hello Ohoni

You have a new signature I would like you to change [some task] to [random task].

No reason, I just really like Austin Powers.

Ohoni.6057:

The majority of actual raiding guilds don’t even touch the easier modes and the vast majority of players who do play the easier modes do not touch the higher difficulty modes. That’s very easy to check if you see the world first clears are on hard mode versions while the number of people who finish the easy modes are a lot more than the people who do the harder modes (no shock there).

I’m not really sure what your point is, but everything you said in there sounds really great. Let’s import that all to GW2, stat!

The point was that those who do the higher difficulty Raids in WoW do not use the easier difficulties to train for them, they just go to the higher difficulty versions directly -that’s what the world first and speedclears appearing on hard mode first and not on easy mode first mean.
And those who do the easier mode Raids do not then move to the higher difficulties but stay and finish the lower difficulty versions. That’s what the difference in audience between the easy mode and the hard mode means, easy mode has more players.
Makes sense?

maddoctor.2738:

Ohoni.6057:

The majority of actual raiding guilds don’t even touch the easier modes and the vast majority of players who do play the easier modes do not touch the higher difficulty modes. That’s very easy to check if you see the world first clears are on hard mode versions while the number of people who finish the easy modes are a lot more than the people who do the harder modes (no shock there).

I’m not really sure what your point is, but everything you said in there sounds really great. Let’s import that all to GW2, stat!

The point was that those who do the higher difficulty Raids in WoW do not use the easier difficulties to train for them, they just go to the higher difficulty versions directly -that’s what the world first and speedclears appearing on hard mode first and not on easy mode first mean.
And those who do the easier mode Raids do not then move to the higher difficulties but stay and finish the lower difficulty versions. That’s what the difference in audience between the easy mode and the hard mode means, easy mode has more players.
Makes sense?

And this is a problem because of? I am not really interested in easy modes, I would just like to understand the problem with them beside ressource allocation.
Devaluation of the hard raid? It is still the hard raid.
Harder to recruit? The point of hard raids is that dedicated people do them, so why would you want to include the less skilled/interested players anyway?

Ohoni.6057:

The majority of actual raiding guilds don’t even touch the easier modes and the vast majority of players who do play the easier modes do not touch the higher difficulty modes. That’s very easy to check if you see the world first clears are on hard mode versions while the number of people who finish the easy modes are a lot more than the people who do the harder modes (no shock there).

I’m not really sure what your point is, but everything you said in there sounds really great. Let’s import that all to GW2, stat!

Yes sure, and ofc without reward, except 2 greens and one blue. You know, like in story mode dungeon. I’m sure you’ll be happy to enjoy easy mode raid, isn’t ?

Torolan.5816:

maddoctor.2738:

Ohoni.6057:

The majority of actual raiding guilds don’t even touch the easier modes and the vast majority of players who do play the easier modes do not touch the higher difficulty modes. That’s very easy to check if you see the world first clears are on hard mode versions while the number of people who finish the easy modes are a lot more than the people who do the harder modes (no shock there).

I’m not really sure what your point is, but everything you said in there sounds really great. Let’s import that all to GW2, stat!

The point was that those who do the higher difficulty Raids in WoW do not use the easier difficulties to train for them, they just go to the higher difficulty versions directly -that’s what the world first and speedclears appearing on hard mode first and not on easy mode first mean.
And those who do the easier mode Raids do not then move to the higher difficulties but stay and finish the lower difficulty versions. That’s what the difference in audience between the easy mode and the hard mode means, easy mode has more players.
Makes sense?

And this is a problem because of? I am not really interested in easy modes, I would just like to understand the problem with them beside ressource allocation.
Devaluation of the hard raid? It is still the hard raid.
Harder to recruit? The point of hard raids is that dedicated people do them, so why would you want to include the less skilled/interested players anyway?

When did I say that it’s a problem? It was an observation.
I was never completely opposed to the idea of an Easy Mode for Raids, it’s when it gets to a point where you have to choose between: yes or no to easy mode Raids and you miss the entire point of discussing how it should be dealt with. This isn’t a black and white thing where you take one side or the other.
And the ones more at fault here are the “I want easy mode” crowd who say just that and leave it completely open. Some have more opinions, but there are conflicts even among them.
I made a post very early in another thread about considerations of an Easy mode of Raids and various parameters for an easy mode.

In summary:
Easier Raids as a story mode to experience the story alone (no rewards)
Easier Raids as a training method for harder versions
Easier Raids as a way of getting access to the raid rewards without playing the hard mode

And some extra considerations on
Accessibility vs More Raids, more about development time splitting, when they can’t have both at the same
Difficulty, how easy will the easy mode be, in other words, where do you set the barrier for completion

You have a new signature I would like you to change [some task] to [random task].

No reason, I just really like Austin Powers.

Buy me some gems and I’ll consider your opinions to carry some weight (intended for satire, not intended as actual request).

he point was that those who do the higher difficulty Raids in WoW do not use the easier difficulties to train for them, they just go to the higher difficulty versions directly

Well, that’s up to them. If that makes them happy, who are we to judge?

That’s what the difference in audience between the easy mode and the hard mode means, easy mode has more players.

Then it sounds like if one were to allocate developer resources into only one or the other, then easy mode would be the way to go, right?

Yes sure, and ofc without reward, except 2 greens and one blue. You know, like in story mode dungeon. I’m sure you’ll be happy to enjoy easy mode raid, isn’t ?

As I said when this was floated months ago, it would be better than nothing, just not by much. If they introduced it like this, I would do each of them one time, just for the experience of having done it, but of course they would not be worth repeating in that form.

If they had serious, but non-specific rewards, like guaranteed rare/exotic with various other nick-knacks, something worth the equivalent time and effort from some other activity, but no progress toward Legendary or anything of that sort, then I would still probably do some of them on daily/weekly rotation for a while, at least until, I got bored with it, and I’m sure some people would take them quite seriously.

With the latter though, I would STILL push that they either add a path to Envoy to those raids, OR add them elsewhere in the game, so that non-raiders can acquire them.

I was never completely opposed to the idea of an Easy Mode for Raids, it’s when it gets to a point where you have to choose between: yes or no to easy mode Raids and you miss the entire point of discussing how it should be dealt with. This isn’t a black and white thing where you take one side or the other.

I think that if the decision is made to make easy mode, it would be pretty hard to do it wrong. I mean, they can make mistakes, obviously, as they did with dungeons, as they did with the raids as they launched, as they’ve done with almost any new feature, but those mistakes can and would be corrected. And I push for my ideal version of easy mode raids, since this is all theoretical so why not, but that doesn’t mean that I wouldn’t be reasonably satisfied if they went a different direction. The key bullet-points that I need hi to be fully satisfied are below, but just one or more of them would be a serious improvement over none of them.

• To be able to play through the Forsaken Thicket content with lower risk of wiping. This could theoretically come in the form of an open world version or something like that, but any option other than “easy mode raid” seems like it would be much harder to produce, since it would require the same amount of work, PLUS whatever differences it would bring.

• To be able to progress towards earning Envoy armor without having to do the existing raids. This progress could come from anywhere, an easy mode raid, map completions on the Forsaken Thicket open world map discussed above, some sort of Legendary quest chain, whatever, so long as there is a path with reasonable goals to it for non-raiders.

• To have a more easily puggable version of the raid experience, one with lower tuning so that players can take incoming players largely as they are and find a use for them, no comms needed, basically the same difficulty as the average dungeon or lower tier Fractal.

Of the three, the last is the least vital to me, but I fully believe that a lot of other players still want that.

I’ve laid out at least some of the details of what I think would be the ideal combination of those factors, and would be happy to answer anyone who still had questions, but I don’t insist that my version would be the only worthwhile combination, so long as the core goals are met.

maddoctor.2738:

The majority of actual raiding guilds don’t even touch the easier modes and the vast majority of players who do play the easier modes do not touch the higher difficulty modes. That’s very easy to check if you see the world first clears are on hard mode versions while the number of people who finish the easy modes are a lot more than the people who do the harder modes (no shock there). Or you were talking about something else because I think I got lost around there.

Ehm… what? Literally every guild is making regular runs on lower difficulty (like – if guild is progressing trough mythic – they do hardcore mode clears, if they progressing trough hardcore – they do normal runs) to gear up alts and teach new members.

maddoctor.2738:

And I never said new abilities wouldn’t work, they can add (or remove) abilities from raid bosses and call them easy or hard mode any time they wish. But in your version of Easy Mode you posted in the first pages (or was it in the other thread) you didn’t exactly do that but instead nerfed the current abilities to the ground.

Only toned down. Whole reason of teaching is teach, not wiping everyone because someone made a mistake. To show abilities, how they looks, what they do, when they fire. Ofc someone can ignore everything and try to facetank, but for what purpose? Training mode is mentioned as stripped from all ascended loot and legendary armor quest items, so doing it for loot/profit is pointless, fractals are much better.

Rednik.3809:

Training mode is mentioned as stripped from all ascended loot and legendary armor quest items, so doing it for loot/profit is pointless, fractals are much better.

I’d really suggest you look at the post above yours and many other posts who disagree with this part.

This is why I say an easy mode that allows players to experience the story (and only the story) is fundamentally different to an easy mode that is there for training (and training only), which in turn is different to an easy mode that allows access to the legendary armor and other ascended loot from raids but at a slower pace.

If they wanted to they could remove all hard mechanics from the bosses, lower the HP/damage considerably, remove all phases other than first one, and call it story mode so players could experience the story part even solo.

For training I already talked about that, won’t repeat that at this point. Obviously needs to be considerably harder than the above story mode though otherwise it serves no training purpose.

And about the last bit about accessing the legendary rewards through the easy mode of raids, I think the biggest obstacle here as expressed by many is the Envoy Armor (notice: Envoy, not Legendary in general), remove that from the easy mode raids and there is a good chance more people will agree to it, at least as far as rewards are concerned.

To be able to progress towards earning Envoy armor without having to do the existing raids. This progress could come from anywhere, an easy mode raid, map completions on the Forsaken Thicket open world map discussed above, some sort of Legendary quest chain, whatever, so long as there is a path with reasonable goals to it for non-raiders.

Take a look:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/Why-does-Lege-armor-have-to-be-tied-to-Raids/first

And there is another thing, the initial topic was about raid accessibility, not about access to the rewards of the raids.
So I was wondering, after 5 full pages, how is an easy mode for raids going to make the normal mode of raids more accessible? Or that’s not a goal at all?

maddoctor.2738:

So I was wondering, after 5 full pages, how is an easy mode for raids going to make the normal mode of raids more accessible? Or that’s not a goal at all?

Pretty obvious. More people with encounter experience → more people in normal raids and less people without experience in normal raids → less wipes in normal raids and more groups with wider diversity → normal mode becoming less frustrating and pug demands becoming less ridiculous → even more people are willing to try raid and so on. This is positive feedback loop.

Rednik.3809:

maddoctor.2738:

So I was wondering, after 5 full pages, how is an easy mode for raids going to make the normal mode of raids more accessible? Or that’s not a goal at all?

Pretty obvious. More people with encounter experience -> more people in normal raids and less people without experience in normal raids -> less wipes in normal raids and more groups with wider diversity -> normal mode becoming less frustrating and pug demands becoming less ridiculous -> even more people are willing to try raid and so on. This is positive feedback loop.

Exactly this won’t happen. It was proven in multiple games that most players won’t advance through the difficulties.

maddoctor.2738:

Ohoni.6057:

The majority of actual raiding guilds don’t even touch the easier modes and the vast majority of players who do play the easier modes do not touch the higher difficulty modes. That’s very easy to check if you see the world first clears are on hard mode versions while the number of people who finish the easy modes are a lot more than the people who do the harder modes (no shock there).

I’m not really sure what your point is, but everything you said in there sounds really great. Let’s import that all to GW2, stat!

The point was that those who do the higher difficulty Raids in WoW do not use the easier difficulties to train for them, they just go to the higher difficulty versions directly -that’s what the world first and speedclears appearing on hard mode first and not on easy mode first mean.
And those who do the easier mode Raids do not then move to the higher difficulties but stay and finish the lower difficulty versions. That’s what the difference in audience between the easy mode and the hard mode means, easy mode has more players.
Makes sense?

that’s actually not true for the majority of any raiding guild in WOW. Having been in both hard core and casual in both we started with “normal” mode,if you will, and then once that was on farm progressed on to the Heroic and now Mythic modes. Very few go straight into Mythic, or didn’t used to. Now, WOW has been dumbed down so much that maybe it is possible to to jump straight into the fire, but most don’t. The modes are there to progress, and that’s what every guild in WOW wants, progression.
Now, the raids in this game are, and I am going to cope it for sure but oh well, the are not truely raids. They are more like single boss fights with a bit of trash then heaps of mechanics. When I can see my guildies go in and do Gors in like 30 mins, that’s not a raid. Where’s the tons of trash….several wings,smaller Bosses til you get to the “big guy”?
Now, in no way are the raids in this game easy. What with the class restrictions put upon everyone from the meta community to the pages of text that proceed this post, they are tough. But that’s a good thing!! End game is meant to be that. And this game is still very young in MMO years and they have a long way to go raids to improve, and I think they will.
Whats needs to stop is the toxic behaviour of folks against folks trying to do them. Several pages back it was suggested that you make your own LFG and go from there. BINGO! That’s the ticket, mic drop and leave please, nuff said!

This is why I say an easy mode that allows players to experience the story (and only the story) is fundamentally different to an easy mode that is there for training (and training only),

It could be different, but it wouldn’t have to be. The one could easily serve as both.

If they wanted to they could remove all hard mechanics from the bosses, lower the HP/damage considerably, remove all phases other than first one, and call it story mode so players could experience the story part even solo.

Sure, but they don’t have to dumb it down QUITE that much. I mean the nice thing about ten man groups is that there’s plenty of room for reasonable redundancy. On an easy mode version, I think even the weakest players could tag along and reasonably help, even if ten players of that caliber wouldn’t be able to do it themselves.

And about the last bit about accessing the legendary rewards through the easy mode of raids, I think the biggest obstacle here as expressed by many is the Envoy Armor (notice: Envoy, not Legendary in general), remove that from the easy mode raids and there is a good chance more people will agree to it, at least as far as rewards are concerned.

Again though, I don’t see that it MUST come as a part of easy mode, but 1. it would greatly increase the long term participation of that mode, as if easy mode just offered “decent loot” then many players will soon migrate to other forms of “decent loot” as they’ve migrated from dungeons, and 2. there should STILL be an alternate avenue to envoy armor, because hard mode raiding should NOT remain the sole source of it. It’s far to niche an activity to be the only place to earn an armor with mass appeal.

Take a look:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/Why-does-Lege-armor-have-to-be-tied-to-Raids/first

Yes, I read some of that thread. I know that spreading Envoy armor to other places would upset certain factions, but that does not mean that those factions deserve to get their way. If spreading Envoy armor to other players brings about the greatest happiness to the greatest number, then it’s the right call to make, even if some people don’t like that.

And there is another thing, the initial topic was about raid accessibility, not about access to the rewards of the raids.

True, and I try to only address the topic of rewards when directly questioned on it, but motivation IS a factor of accessibility and why it is necessary. It’s all a fluid system, and no single factor can be discussed in strict isolation.

So I was wondering, after 5 full pages, how is an easy mode for raids going to make the normal mode of raids more accessible? Or that’s not a goal at all?

Well, two responses. The first is that it would make the hard mode more accessible because it would increase the total participants. By itself having a lower barrier to entry, people who gave up on raids entirely would be at least “raiding” in some sense, and that is likely to increase their confidence, skill level, and interest in attempting hard mode raids. I would predict hard raid populations dropping slightly for a few weeks or perhaps months as “easy mode” was the new thing to check out, but in the long term the population should end up higher than before them due to migration.

And as to the second, the topic doesn’t specifically say “hard mode raid.” Easy mode raids, done well, would be another valid form of raiding, and having an inherently more accessible version, one with fewer barriers to practical entry, would be “more accessible raids.” Even if no one migrated up to hard mode, the “more accessible raids” issue would have been improved.

Exactly this won’t happen. It was proven in multiple games that most players won’t advance through the difficulties.

Not all will, some will though.

Rednik.3809:

maddoctor.2738:

So I was wondering, after 5 full pages, how is an easy mode for raids going to make the normal mode of raids more accessible? Or that’s not a goal at all?

Pretty obvious. More people with encounter experience -> more people in normal raids and less people without experience in normal raids -> less wipes in normal raids and more groups with wider diversity -> normal mode becoming less frustrating and pug demands becoming less ridiculous -> even more people are willing to try raid and so on. This is positive feedback loop.

Bingo! Lol, yea, I use that a lot, sorry.
But you have nailed it, and its called progression! And that’s how you accomplish it. Now, I don’t agree that there needs to be an “easy mode”, that’s just silly. What would work is less focus on the “meta” and more on allowing people that can fill the role,dps,heals, sorta tank, do just that without pigeonholing everyone into playing (or raiding actually) with only one build/class. Then when the nerfs come we wont see the dreaded “Oh my god, Rev is dead” and that junk. Regardless of class if you can do the job or fill the role and do the mechanics (<key) then you should be viable and allowed a go. That equates to more people going and more people learning, and all you points above come true.

Ohoni.6057:

Again though, I don’t see that it MUST come as a part of easy mode, but 1. it would greatly increase the long term participation of that mode, as if easy mode just offered “decent loot” then many players will soon migrate to other forms of “decent loot” as they’ve migrated from dungeons, and 2. there should STILL be an alternate avenue to envoy armor, because hard mode raiding should NOT remain the sole source of it. It’s far to niche an activity to be the only place to earn an armor with mass appeal.

Legendaries in general are a niche activity, the armor doesn’t have mass appeal.
Hard mode raiding doesn’t exist in GW2. Stop calling it that way.

Not all will, some will though.

Not some, a small minority.
And most people don’t care about raids in general. Many won’t join a group activity without automatic group building, something that will never happen in GW2.

Now, in no way are the raids in this game easy. What with the class restrictions put upon everyone from the meta community to the pages of text that proceed this post, they are tough. But that’s a good thing!! End game is meant to be that. And this game is still very young in MMO years and they have a long way to go raids to improve, and I think they will.

You come from WoW, which is a very different game, and I don’t think you mean any harm by it, but the GW2 community was founded on the notion of moving AWAY from that sort of “this is endgame, it’s supposed to be hard” mentality. Not everyone enjoys that sort of thing, and this was once the game for those players to live. The concern is that we’re moving away from that Elysia.

Joxer.6024:

Rednik.3809:

maddoctor.2738:

So I was wondering, after 5 full pages, how is an easy mode for raids going to make the normal mode of raids more accessible? Or that’s not a goal at all?

Pretty obvious. More people with encounter experience -> more people in normal raids and less people without experience in normal raids -> less wipes in normal raids and more groups with wider diversity -> normal mode becoming less frustrating and pug demands becoming less ridiculous -> even more people are willing to try raid and so on. This is positive feedback loop.

Bingo! Lol, yea, I use that a lot, sorry.
But you have nailed it, and its called progression! And that’s how you accomplish it. Now, I don’t agree that there needs to be an “easy mode”, that’s just silly. What would work is less focus on the “meta” and more on allowing people that can fill the role,dps,heals, sorta tank, do just that without pigeonholing everyone into playing (or raiding actually) with only one build/class. Then when the nerfs come we wont see the dreaded “Oh my god, Rev is dead” and that junk. Regardless of class if you can do the job or fill the role and do the mechanics (<key) then you should be viable and allowed a go. That equates to more people going and more people learning, and all you points above come true.

There will be always a meta for PUGs.
You can clear almost every boss with your own group composition.

This is why I say an easy mode that allows players to experience the story (and only the story) is fundamentally different to an easy mode that is there for training (and training only),

It could be different, but it wouldn’t have to be. The one could easily serve as both.

It depends. I mean I’ve read in another thread that fighting a mob that is just a sack of hit points is exciting and fun for some. Those would want to experience the story too. But of course they could easily do one for both, but it would make people unhappy.

The first is that it would make the hard mode more accessible because it would increase the total participants.

And

Rednik.3809:

More people with encounter experience -> more people in normal raids and less people without experience in normal raids -> less wipes in normal raids and more groups with wider diversity -> normal mode becoming less frustrating and pug demands becoming less ridiculous -> even more people are willing to try raid and so on.

See this one:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/An-issue-raids-and-their-accesibility/page/4#post6387453

Basically, although there is a good chance an easier mode will increase the amount of raiders for normal mode, there is also the potential of making it worse.

Ohoni.6057:

Now, in no way are the raids in this game easy. What with the class restrictions put upon everyone from the meta community to the pages of text that proceed this post, they are tough. But that’s a good thing!! End game is meant to be that. And this game is still very young in MMO years and they have a long way to go raids to improve, and I think they will.

You come from WoW, which is a very different game, and I don’t think you mean any harm by it, but the GW2 community was founded on the notion of moving AWAY from that sort of “this is endgame, it’s supposed to be hard” mentality. Not everyone enjoys that sort of thing, and this was once the game for those players to live. The concern is that we’re moving away from that Elysia.

Amen to that! I am still struggling with how different it all is. having always been the tank I was excited about raids, til they came out. Lol, omg how different, not old school tanking for sure. But that’s a good thing and I have since adapted, I don’t want a WOW clone, I left for something new and challenging and its just that.
The reason I mentioned the endgame comment is simply because that’s what many refer to on these posts, that’s raids were meant to be that. Doesn’t mean I agree, just what I have read.
I have stopped raiding for 1, pc issues but the other is something I just experienced for an escort run. LFG was asking for dps…kk, not a problem, I’ll come on my Engi. No thanks, we want PS or Rev. That’s what has killed raids for me. And to the post below, yea I get that there will always be metas, WOW had Gear score and it was a nightmare. I had hoped that a different game would not cop to such things, but people out there do want to know and be told what works, whats awesome and what sucks, so I get it. Don’t like it, but yea, its there.

Ohoni.6057:

The majority of actual raiding guilds don’t even touch the easier modes and the vast majority of players who do play the easier modes do not touch the higher difficulty modes. That’s very easy to check if you see the world first clears are on hard mode versions while the number of people who finish the easy modes are a lot more than the people who do the harder modes (no shock there).

I’m not really sure what your point is, but everything you said in there sounds really great. Let’s import that all to GW2, stat!

You want that model of Raids ok that means you are willing to take subpar gear since those raids off weaker tier rewards than that found in the hard modes so you would be rewarded with no access to legendary armor progression or Ascended drops…

Miellyn.6847:

Exactly this won’t happen. It was proven in multiple games that most players won’t advance through the difficulties.

Currently we have less than 5% of players as constant raiders. Even if this number will rise to 10% that will be huge improvement.

Rednik.3809:

Miellyn.6847:

Exactly this won’t happen. It was proven in multiple games that most players won’t advance through the difficulties.

Currently we have less than 5% of players as constant raiders. Even if this number will rise to 10% that will be huge improvement.

Oh really where is your proof of this number? Anet has never stated such a number, enlighten us, and again not everyone is in Gw2efficiency so those numbers aren’t accurate.

maddoctor.2738:

See this one:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/An-issue-raids-and-their-accesibility/page/4#post6387453

Basically, although there is a good chance an easier mode will increase the amount of raiders for normal mode, there is also the potential of making it worse.

I rarely read his posts Because His Posts Have Too Much Words With Capital Letters. But again, model with less damage works in WoW, and its pretty natural to understand that if this ability is almost killing you on easy difficulty, hard version WILL kill you, so better to pay attention and avoid.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Oh really where is your proof of this number? Anet has never stated such a number, enlighten us, and again not everyone is in Gw2efficiency so those numbers aren’t accurate.

So, 100k+ accounts is not good enough slice for you?

Why are pvp esl rewards gated behind challenging tournaments? I don’t like competitive pvp but I would like the opportunity to have $100,000 prize. Please introduce a pvp tournament format tuned to my skill level and support it with full prizes. ANYTHING else is an abandonment of your community and original manifesto.

Rednik.3809:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Oh really where is your proof of this number? Anet has never stated such a number, enlighten us, and again not everyone is in Gw2efficiency so those numbers aren’t accurate.

So, 100k+ accounts is not good enough slice for you?

You said and I quote only 5% of the population, if the number you are deriving from is not equal to the number of active accounts and actual population then your numbers are wrong and can’t effectively be used in an argument. It’s very simple concept really, and there are people that raid consistently but have never used gw2efficiency.

This data also hasn’t been updated for quiet (hence no account crawling) a while and doesn’t reflect any new data on gw2efficiency so the data is even more inaccurate.

Sry Ohoni, but even with the Knowledge of how deadly Things in Nomarl Mode would be, People would still learn the wrong Stuff in Easy Mode if they are different. I have seen this in WoW with the LFR Mode. It made Normal Mode frustrating because People who went from LFR to Normal learnt on how to deal with Bosses on LFR which was completely Braindead and failed or ignored important Mechanics because it didn’t matter much there even after explaining how to deal with the Mechanics the right Way ( " I did it 100 Times on LFR, I know how to deal with it" cough )

Give People the Option to learn Stuff the wrong Way and you’ll see a lot of People learning the Stuff the wrong Way, which will make pugging more frustrating as there is a big “Chance” of getting People who are doing it completely wrong in the Normal Mode, since they learnt it so in Easy Mode. Consequence. Pugs will set up more restrictions to keep out the “Easy-Mode-Scrubs”. Easy Mode Players will complain about how the “Elitist” Players won’t let them Raid etc etc.

Also again. To have an easier Version being capable to train you, the Core of the Mechanics should stay the same, it should just be easier to deal with it. Again going to my Flamewall Example. If this would be changed on how I see Easy Modes should be, than Players still learn " Big Wall of Flame kills me. Don’t ever touch it", they just have more time to react. On normal Mode they just need to react a bit faster which is much easier than having two completely different Versions of the Flamewall in the Game Modes and learning both of them.

And on the Topic of being too occupied with not getting hit on VG. What the Hell are you doing there? Damage on VG doesn’t come in fast. Are you standing in Seekers or even better, in Front of him? I mean srsly. As Melee DPS you just have to dodge once every 10 Seconds. As Ranged DPS you don’t even have to do that.

NikeEU.7690:

Why are pvp esl rewards gated behind challenging tournaments? I don’t like competitive pvp but I would like the opportunity to have $100,000 prize. Please introduce a pvp tournament format tuned to my skill level and support it with full prizes. ANYTHING else is an abandonment of your community and original manifesto.

So raid rewards are gated behind tournaments? Oh, nvm, you just trying to troll with meaningless post, I get it.

“It made Normal Mode frustrating because People who went from LFR to Normal learnt on how to deal with Bosses on LFR which was completely Braindead and failed or ignored important Mechanics because it didn’t matter much there even after explaining how to deal with the Mechanics the right Way ( " I did it 100 Times on LFR, I know how to deal with it" cough )"

yea, reason 20 why I quit raiding and playing WOW. Please ANET do not bring something like that, ever.
And I hate to use WOW as a reference but it kinda fits so meh…. How many times did guild run Kara? Over and over, wek after week, because someone always died in the flames…lol. That Boss was a cause of so many g-quits and kicks! But guess what…people got it. It will happen. granted a year in and still people not doing VG or first wing at least? Yea, may need to have a look but not a complete overhaul.

Rednik.3809:

NikeEU.7690:

Why are pvp esl rewards gated behind challenging tournaments? I don’t like competitive pvp but I would like the opportunity to have $100,000 prize. Please introduce a pvp tournament format tuned to my skill level and support it with full prizes. ANYTHING else is an abandonment of your community and original manifesto.

So raid rewards are gated behind tournaments? Oh, nvm, you just trying to troll with meaningless post, I get it.

Raid rewards are gated behind raids. ESL pvp rewards are gated behind pvp. Even you can understand the comparison.

NikeEU.7690:

Raid rewards are gated behind raids. ESL pvp rewards are gated behind pvp. Even you can understand the comparison.

I did a lot of duels and unranked matches which are pvp. Where I can get my ESL pvp reward?

Rednik.3809:

NikeEU.7690:

Raid rewards are gated behind raids. ESL pvp rewards are gated behind pvp. Even you can understand the comparison.

I did a lot of duels and unranked matches which are pvp. Where I can get my ESL pvp reward?

I’ve done a lot of dungeons and fractals when can I get my raid rewards?

NikeEU.7690:

I’ve done a lot of dungeons and fractals when can I get my raid rewards?

I don’t know, I never said that you can get it from doing “PvE”. So, I’m still waiting your answer, I really want my ESL reward.

Rednik.3809:

NikeEU.7690:

I’ve done a lot of dungeons and fractals when can I get my raid rewards?

I don’t know, I never said that you can get it from doing “PvE”. So, I’m still waiting your answer, I really want my ESL reward.

You misunderstood my request. I want a tournament with easier competition that gives the same reward as tournaments with pro level competition.

This is getting silly guys. I know it’s difficult to take the subject seriously but let’s at least pretend.

Sarrs.4831:

This is getting silly guys. I know it’s difficult to take the subject seriously but let’s at least pretend.

Honestly there are pages and pages of text, and I’m still not sure what the point is.

I think it’s “I want easier content. Only raids suffice.”

Absurdo.8309:

Honestly there are pages and pages of text, and I’m still not sure what the point is.

I think it’s “I want easier content. Only raids suffice.”

Nah, “I want the things these other people have without putting in the same amount of effort”.

No matter which way you push or pull the discussion they never budge on eventually getting the same skins as everyone else, up to and including legendary armor.

Sarrs.4831:

Absurdo.8309:

Honestly there are pages and pages of text, and I’m still not sure what the point is.

I think it’s “I want easier content. Only raids suffice.”

Nah, “I want the things these other people have without putting in the same amount of effort”.

No matter which way you push or pull the discussion they never budge on eventually getting the same skins as everyone else, up to and including legendary armor.

Yep, I guess I should demand that all those exclusive HOT map skins through raids, because I don’t like to grind dragon stand.