Guild Wars 2

Derenek.8931:

Although Im starting to sense that
Many of the arguments being made against me are simply, “Stop talking, I like the dungeons the way they are, and you have no right to make suggestions or gripe.”

Then they follow up with, “Go in with your own group and get the heck off this forum!”

The problem here is that there is now three subjects, people use bad terminology and people confuse who answer to who.

- There is people that talk about stacking, people that talk about LOSING and you that try to get your ‘’Dungeon are easy, we need to change it’’ into every single tread lately.

- A lot of ppl try to complate about LOSING or Corner stacking, but they use the term stacking which is totally different. That just point out how they don’t know what they are talking about and confuse people because everybody is not talking about the same thing.

Like I said, try to follow the discussion and not change the subject in the middle of nowhere and then confuse our response. You did that on several tread already.

The question was ‘’Is stacking a good thing?’’ and we answered yes it’s a good thing, it’s should stay like it is. You can create your own LFG if you don’t like it.

And you take it as we answered that about your question ‘’Dungeon need to be updated’’. You confuse the two and you did the same with the tread about min-maxing.

There are not the same question dude. We like how build and gameplay work in this game, but most people here want more challenging and difficult content and dungeon. Nobody said no about better AI. You really need to create your own Tread about it man and stop talking about the same stuff in every tread about something else.

Really dude? Because people do to use your preferred made up acronym they don’t know what they are taking about?

Most of the people that run dungeons here would like to see updates, what your talking about is a complete AI rework that will affect every aspect of the game, something the developer does not care to do.

Honestly this thread is the reason I can barely tolerate the players of this game. God forbid they add anyway to check players contribution in a group, people like you would not survive OP.

Feel free to post videos of yourself soloing dungeons though, you already said you can.

Derenek.8931:

Really dude? Because people do to use your preferred made up acronym they don’t know what they are taking about?

You know what acronym mean right? So stacking is an acronym now?

Spot To Aggro Competitor and Kill?? I don’t know man. I was sure that stacking was a word with meaning. Or you mean LOSing. Yup right, Ling of Sight, i totally made that up and nobody never use that in any game. I hate that too, it’s like cmon guys stop using AoE and DoT already. Nobody know what those made up Acronym mean. I prefer to use the wrong word and confuse everybody about what I speak.

Derenek.8931:

Honestly guys, that is a bit on the extreme fanboy side. The game isnt perfect, and if you get offended by people making suggestions or asking for changes… Its pretty clear why the devs dont bother taking suggestions with a forum that acts this way.

Your previous posts suggest a lot more than what you present here. I agree with the base statement that GW2 dungeons need to be updated, but I disagree in principle with the style of updates you suggested earlier in this thread.

And for the record, while no one here can force ANet’s hand, I am 100% aware that a number of this forum community’s suggestions have, through me, been heard by the developers. They know that we want updates, they’re just choosing to work on other things, and they’re confident that what they do in HoT will make this community happy… whatever it actually ends up being.

Derenek.8931:

The thread got pretty active while I was asleep. :-)

People are pretty passionate about wanting things to stay exactly as they are.

The best responses are the ones that say things are “impossible”
Or that enhanced AI causes problems.

Im still pretty firmly in the camp that says:
GW2 dungeons could use some serious updates.

Apparently many on this forum don’t agree. Although Im starting to sense that
Many of the arguments being made against me are simply, “Stop talking, I like the dungeons the way they are, and you have no right to make suggestions or gripe.”

Then they follow up with, “Go in with your own group and get the heck off this forum!”

Honestly guys, that is a bit on the extreme fanboy side. The game isnt perfect, and if you get offended by people making suggestions or asking for changes… Its pretty clear why the devs dont bother taking suggestions with a forum that acts this way.

Who said dungeons don’t need updates, or that dungeons are great the way they are?

We said either (a) the changes you proposed wouldn’t improve the situation, and/or (b) it’s pointless to ask for changes, because ArenaNet is sure-as-kitten not going to go back and overhaul the dungeons.

And no one told you to leave the forums. We suggested that if you don’t like a particular playstyle, start your own group and advertise that the run will be run in a manner that you approve of. You seem rather confused about all of this :/

Rising Dusk.2408:

And for the record, while no one here can force ANet’s hand, I am 100% aware that a number of this forum community’s suggestions have, through me, been heard by the developers. They know that we want updates, they’re just choosing to work on other things, and they’re confident that what they do in HoT will make this community happy… whatever it actually ends up being.

I don’t think they choose what upper management thinks they should work on. I’m sure a lot of devs read these forums, and know that we are unhappy about several things. But whether upper management pays attention to that, that is what really matters. In the end, it’s their call. And that is exactly the problem, because I fear that they are completely out of touch with their own game, and with the community.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I don’t think they choose what upper management thinks they should work on. I’m sure a lot of devs read these forums, and know that we are unhappy about several things. But whether upper management pays attention to that, that is what really matters. In the end, it’s their call. And that is exactly the problem, because I fear that they are completely out of touch with their own game, and with the community.

The highest level senior game designers are all on-board with what they’re doing for HoT as far as challenging content. I don’t have any fancy insight to provide into that “challenging content”, but they seem pretty confident that whatever they do it’ll be really tough stuff for the hardcore challenge-seekers. It probably won’t be the classic raids maybe we’ve all explicitly asked for, but I’m pretty hopeful that they won’t completely botch it.

Derenek.8931:

Honestly guys, that is a bit on the extreme fanboy side. The game isnt perfect, and if you get offended by people making suggestions or asking for changes… Its pretty clear why the devs dont bother taking suggestions with a forum that acts this way.

It’s not about making suggestions or asking for changes. I am sure nearly everyone would like to see updates and changes to the dungeons. That much is very clear.
However, suggesting that Anet change/update dungeons so that it caters to your specific preferred method of play is not the right way to go about it.

Instead of “Get rid of stacking” Maybe try something like “Change current boss mechanics so stacking no longer works in favor of the party.” or something along those lines. Even if things were to change, there still would be a “Meta” way to run the dungeon. As it is, stacking and skipping is acceptable according to Anet. The dungeons were designed so that players could clear everything, or skip most everything. Or some mix of the two. Which allowes for players themselves to decide how they want to run the dungeon. It doesn’t force anyone to use certain tactics, or certain builds, or whatever. Anet isn’t forcing anyone into stacking. The players are.

Well it’s a new day, so I better refresh the flame war.

What I am asking for (I do understand dungeons are not Anet’s priority right now, but having played GW1 also from beta. I know what Anet does. People complain on the forums and they officially say they won’t fix the issue because they have other projects… but actually eventually they do. People just have to keep talking about it so it doesn’t get forgotten. Maybe not today or tomorrow, it might be 2016 before they fix some issues, but Anet isn’t a lazy company. They’ll get around to it eventually)

So anyways back to my original com ain’t suggestion.

Please Anet program into the dungeons AI behavior that discourages stacking.
( apparently there’s a leet speak acronym for people all standing In the exact same spot so that the character models clip into each other.) but to make it clear for so e who didn’t understand the point I was making.

The party forms outside the dungeon. Everyone says hello to each other.
The dude with the Twilight great sword then asks “does everyone know how to run this dungeon?” Nobody says anything, and one character model jumps up and down. The. The level 65 ranger days, “I’ve never done this before.”

To which half the group says, “it’s not too hard, just follow us”

Then the mission starts. Immediately party members start up their stealth or speed skills and start running line bats out of hell down the corridor.

The ranger calls out, “hey! Where are you going?!?!”

One person is somehow able to type and run at the same time (macro maybe?) we’re bypassing these mobs and going to the boss!

One person is somehow able to type and run at the same time (macro maybe?) we’re bypassing these mobs and going to the boss!

At which point the new ranger while attempting to run and type at the same time meets a sticky end.

He lies dead only meters away from the starting point.

Then suddenly without even offering any assistance, a message window pops up asking to kick the now dead ranger.

I then hit the do not kick button and try to ask that we collect up and fight our way back to him. He’s new.

Two members just quit the group, apparently they don’t have time to help teammates.

(So ends the beginning of the Saturday night debacle)

“Anet isn’t a lazy company” – Derenek, 2015

Im framing this on my wall.

Those people left that group because you are not entitled to their free time. You could argue that they are pugging so what have they got lose, but when I join a pug and quickly realise im the carry these people are looking for, I leave too, those people do not deserve the reward.

I proceed to tell the ranger he might not be geared up for explorabke mode in this dungeon. Why dont we try and easier run than Arah? How about Sorrows Embrace?
The ranger thanks me and agrees to join me in a different dungeon.

We enter the next dungeon, things start similarly as before.

Luckily the pace is a little slower and the ranger makes it to the first stopping point.

“So what do we do now?” He asks.

“Just jump up here and wait for the mobs to come to us.” Then the warrior jumps up on top of some boulders.

The ranger types questioningly. “Why are you on that boulder?”

To which the reply is, "this way all of our attacks and AoE will hit the boss and most of his attacks will miss us.

The ranger private messages me and asks, “isn’t this cheating?” To which I can only sheepishly respond, “technically it’s not. It’s called stacking.”

The ranger PM’s me, “This is gay. Dungeons are really like this?”

I can only say yes and feel ashamed. I try and explain it’s the fastest way to get through the dungeons and get the loot. The ranger plays along for now.

The boss fight begins and the ranger makes the mistake of jumping off the rock to g and try and fight some of the smaller mobs. At which time people start telling at him to stop playing like an idiot. I feel really bad for the ranger, because he isn’t an idiot. It is in fact us, the cheaters ,hiding in our exploit corner who are really the idiots.

The boss goes down for the count. The part starts running again to the next zone. There’s tons of traps and poison and crap in the way.

It’s tough to stay alive as a guardian, we dot have much in the way of speed boost. Luckily I got regen lkne noones business.

Suddenly the ranger’s health drops very low. And he’s dead.

The rest of the group makes it to the next point. Once again I ask if we can go back for the ranger. They just give me blank stares. Nobody has time to actually play the dungeon and fight monsters. That ranger’s in his own.

We are simply too far past him to be able to mount a rescue and the actual boss encounter is still even further away.

Once again the party without saying anything begins trying to vote the ranger out of the group.

They get three yes and he’s gone. They tell me it’ll be fine, they’ll find a thief and he can run up to us. At which point I’m also fed up with this nonsense. This game is supposed to be a friendly cooperative experience, but it definitely doesn’t feel that way.

I tell them, I’m leaving. They shouldn’t have booted the ranger. I get called a n00b and I leave the group before they can vote me off.

….

So what in this debacle of a dungeon run am I asking Anet fix a little?

The ranger wS entirely right. What we were doing wasn’t playing the dungeon, it was taking advantage of an exploit. So yeah, even though people on this forum will hate me, I’d line Anet to close those exploits down. Make the AI smart enough not to let is trap it into a corner and stack our AoE onto it. It’s just cheating.

Then I also ask that there be doors or stopping points closer together, so innocent newer players like that ranger won’t be left behind and booted. That way even if someone does go down, there still a chance to rescue the poor guy.

So yeah, Anet. Please do something g to prevent stacking.

All you forum trolls can now return to hating on me for wanting game design that promotes team play.

LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

Derenek.8931:

The ranger wS entirely right. What we were doing wasn’t playing the dungeon, it was taking advantage of an exploit. So yeah, even though people on this forum will hate me, I’d line Anet to close those exploits down. Make the AI smart enough not to let is trap it into a corner and stack our AoE onto it. It’s just cheating.

Since you allege that stacking is “cheating,” please explain in a sentence or two exactly what game rule or code of conduct it breaks. I am sure many others are eager for your clarification.

Derenek:
Touching story about the Ranger never having run the dungeons before…

Now, back to reality.
What did you put in the LFG? What was the decription of the LFG you joined?
Those who quit, probable had better things to do than teach someone new. How come you didn’t teach the ranger, or give him some pointers?
Stacking wasn’t the issue here. The issue seems to be that no one was willing to teach, or explain what was going on. There seemed to be a huge lack of communication.

So yes, lets do something to remove a valid tactic and way to play in favor of something far less effecient because we don’t want to take the time to teach someone new the ropes. [/sarcasm]

But what we really wanna know… Did the Ranger have a bear pet?

In this gane there are um.. lfg guilds out there with like minded people doing their thing. I do and don’t want to use the word quite for these group/guilds. Guilds that like skiping/watching/selling/certian fractal lvl/ content and don’t want to use the lfg anymore and a whole lot more.

What I’m trying yo say is maybe we need a big list somewhere of all the guilds like this, mentor ones and so forth so people don’t feel lost and people like you and me and OP friends can find a home? Not sure if thats the right word, although hopefully you know what I mean.

Then again… I know that saying:

There is two types of people in this world, those who put people into two groups and those who don’t :/

Meh, If you like these styles look at these group/guilds and if you like these styles look here..

It’s just meta guilds are more media present atm that’s all

Sarah

Ps: sorry about spelling. Did I use the right ’ there ’

Interestingly, stacking promotes the maximum possible team play because everyone benefits from everyone else’s skills in a tight group, whereas when spread out no one benefits from anything the other people are doing. Furthermore, ANet has confirmed before that stacking is not an exploit.

Your story is unfortunate, truly, but the fault lies with either the people who listed the LFG by not including any description as to what they actually expected of the other players or the Ranger for joining a party he didn’t meet the requirements for. That’s really it. If you want to clear everything, you should explain that. If you want to open field and run around in circles for every boss, you should explain that as well.

ANet shouldn’t and won’t restrict the gameplay to force players into the slow and long way of clearing a dungeon by killing everything. They will leave the paths open so both types of players can do whatever they like, which is exactly how it should be.

In principle, for bosses, I do think bosses should have more complex mechanics that encourage more diverse gameplay than what they currently offer. I doubt they’ll ever change the current dungeons to do that, but they will take that into account for new encounters in HoT and beyond.

Mossy Gargoyle.3274:

Derenek.8931:

The ranger wS entirely right. What we were doing wasn’t playing the dungeon, it was taking advantage of an exploit. So yeah, even though people on this forum will hate me, I’d line Anet to close those exploits down. Make the AI smart enough not to let is trap it into a corner and stack our AoE onto it. It’s just cheating.

Since you allege that stacking is “cheating,” please explain in a sentence or two exactly what game rule or code of conduct it breaks. I am sure many others are eager for your clarification.

I think you’re just trying to defend yourself here for the sake of self defense. Don’t feel bad bro, I’ve done it too. We all have.

Now it may not break the terms and agreements we clicked I agree to, however this is a Roleplaying game.

Have you you ever played an RPG tabletop style? With a dungeon master and stuff?

Now imagine you are in that game and your strategy is, I’m going to take my pewter figure and place it outside the gaming mat. That way I my character can throw objects at the monsters and the monsters who are stuck in the game world can’t reach my pewter figure because it is placed conveniently off the gaming mat.

Now, in the first edition dungeons and dragons ruleset, there’s no rule that says you got to put your little figure in the same table as the monsters and other players. But it doesn’t stop it from being cheating regardless. In a tabletop game the dungeon master would just say, stop being a cheeseball and take your figure and put it back I to the ganeboard.

Stacking is just the same. Players find the specific spot that the AI can’t seem to get a good aim lock on, then we stand there invulnerable while the boss gets killed by our spells.

That my friend is the definition of cheating

Evapor.6849:

“Anet isn’t a lazy company” – Derenek, 2015

Im framing this on my wall.

The devs most definitely aren’t lazy. They work their butts off, often with very unreasonable deadlines, while being paid below the industry standard. The company though… thats a matter of opinion.

Derenek, I don’t disagree with anything you just described. And I think it would be foolish for anyone to deny that this is a problem. We’ve all been there, and it IS a problem. I’ve had a ranger like that in a speed running party, and have seen him get kicked all the same for just trying to play the dungeon. I’ve felt bad about having to put up with these dumb exploits, while skipping everything as fast as possible. And yet, I didn’t get the impression that I was missing much. I have played the dungeons normally, at a slow pace, and there was very little enjoyment. So I totally understand why people skip it all.

Derenek.8931:

Mossy Gargoyle.3274:

Derenek.8931:

The ranger wS entirely right. What we were doing wasn’t playing the dungeon, it was taking advantage of an exploit. So yeah, even though people on this forum will hate me, I’d line Anet to close those exploits down. Make the AI smart enough not to let is trap it into a corner and stack our AoE onto it. It’s just cheating.

Since you allege that stacking is “cheating,” please explain in a sentence or two exactly what game rule or code of conduct it breaks. I am sure many others are eager for your clarification.

I think you’re just trying to defend yourself here for the sake of self defense. Don’t feel bad bro, I’ve done it too. We all have.

Now it may not break the terms and agreements we clicked I agree to, however this is a Roleplaying game.

Have you you ever played an RPG tabletop style? With a dungeon master and stuff?

Now imagine you are in that game and your strategy is, I’m going to take my pewter figure and place it outside the gaming mat. That way I my character can throw objects at the monsters and the monsters who are stuck in the game world can’t reach my pewter figure because it is placed conveniently off the gaming mat.

Now, in the first edition dungeons and dragons ruleset, there’s no rule that says you got to put your little figure in the same table as the monsters and other players. But it doesn’t stop it from being cheating regardless. In a tabletop game the dungeon master would just say, stop being a cheeseball and take your figure and put it back I to the ganeboard.

Stacking is just the same. Players find the specific spot that the AI can’t seem to get a good aim lock on, then we stand there invulnerable while the boss gets killed by our spells.

That my friend is the definition of cheating

I am not trying to “defend myself” against anything. I simply asked you to explain exactly how stacking in GW 2 (not some irrelevant table top RPG analogy you made up) is “cheating” or an “exploit.” And the answer is, you won’t and can’t. Great work. You failed to defend your most basic charge.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Furthermore, ANet has confirmed before that stacking is not an exploit.

Stacking in a spot where the boss can’t get to you, IS cheating however. And how often does that happen during speed runs?

Rising Dusk.2408:

Your story is unfortunate, truly, but the fault lies with either the people who listed the LFG

NO. <—capitalized to make a point. The game designers are 100% responsible for this behavior.

Rising Dusk.2408:

ANet shouldn’t and won’t restrict the gameplay to force players into the slow and long way of clearing a dungeon by killing everything. They will leave the paths open so both types of players can do whatever they like, which is exactly how it should be.

That is no defense for bad game design. Why are people so eager to make excuses for the game designers? They really are at fault here.

If I manufacture a gun and someone murders someone with that gun, am I responsible for that murder?

pdavis.8031:

Derenek:
Touching story about the Ranger never having run the dungeons before…

Now, back to reality.
What did you put in the LFG? What was the decription of the LFG you joined?
Those who quit, probable had better things to do than teach someone new. How come you didn’t teach the ranger, or give him some pointers?
Stacking wasn’t the issue here. The issue seems to be that no one was willing to teach, or explain what was going on. There seemed to be a huge lack of communication.

So yes, lets do something to remove a valid tactic and way to play in favor of something far less effecient because we don’t want to take the time to teach someone new the ropes. [/sarcasm]

We’ll always be on opposite ends if the spectrum here. I’ll never believe that taking advantage of weaknesses in a game’s AI coding is a valid strategy.

Now do t get me wrong, obviously it is a strategy that works.

But philosophically and morally, especially since I do understand a bit about how AI video actually works, I’ll always see it as an exploit and borderline or outright cheating.

Tree.3916:

If I manufacture a gun and someone murders someone with that gun, am I responsible for that murder?

If you are physically holding the gun at the time of the murder, then yes. The devs never have up control of the system, so system exploits are still their respinsibility

Except stacking isn’t an exploit, nor is it cheating (borderline or otherwise).

It is also somewhat rich to mention morals given the fact that you insinuated earlier that you go into specific req dungeon groups with non req gear/builds, in order to annoy people.

I guess we have different definitions of responsibility…

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Stacking in a spot where the boss can’t get to you, IS cheating however. And how often does that happen during speed runs?

Never in the context of a proper speed run. If you’re talking about what pubs call speed runs, then players will always generally take the path of least resistance. ANet fixes most exploits in good time, however, once they’re made aware of them.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

NO. <—capitalized to make a point. The game designers are 100% responsible for this behavior.

You’re right, they designed dungeons to be flexible and to allow players to approach them mostly how they want. There are some blocking events, but most long hauls are designed either to be skippable or clearable. Advanced tactics are awesome for those who wish to pursue them and those who are able to. I’m glad they designed dungeons in this fashion. The fault of someone who has a bad experience is in lack of communication between team members as to what personal expectations are.

Things like being able to stealth the CoE laser segment and not fight any of the golems are among the most awesome to watch/perform parts of the PvE dungeon/fractal experience right now for myself and players like me. I am glad that such advanced mob-avoidance tactics exist.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

That is no defense for bad game design. Why are people so eager to make excuses for the game designers? They really are at fault here.

You have yet to present any cogent argument that clearly shows that skipping or stacking is “bad game design”. The only subjectively-bad game design here is in how easy so many encounters are and how that enables success with simple tactics.

Derenek.8931:

Stacking is just the same. Players find the specific spot that the AI can’t seem to get a good aim lock on, then we stand there invulnerable while the boss gets killed by our spells.

That my friend is the definition of cheating

You do realize that the boss can still kill everyone in the party regardless of the stack or not right? Depending on the party make up there is Aegis been thrown around, AoE healing and healing blasts, blindness for days, and all sorts of boons and blocks. So it lessens the chances of a party wipe. Even within stacks, 1 or 2 players still get downed, but are rezzed quickly. Heck, I’ve seen stacks wipe before. Stacking doesn’t make you invulernable. It also allows the bosses to be burnt down quickly so they don’t have time to launch their uber powerful attacks of doom, or at least not more than once.

There are also several bosses where stacking will get you killed.

Using the mechanics, and having the knowledge of the boss, isn’t cheating. It’s being smart.

Were the Romans cheating when they used the “Turtle”? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testudo_formation)
The close order formation was used widely until the advent of guns and gun powder. This was essentially stacking close together and forming shield walls.

It’s a legitimate tactic.

As far as the table top example. Yeah, not so much. Stacking and completely removing your piece from the playing field are two very separate things, and not really related. I’ve used stacking tactics in tabletop RPGs. Sometimes it makes sense to fall back to a defensable position and stick close together

Mossy Gargoyle.3274:

Derenek.8931:

Mossy Gargoyle.3274:

Derenek.8931:

The ranger wS entirely right. What we were doing wasn’t playing the dungeon, it was taking advantage of an exploit. So yeah, even though people on this forum will hate me, I’d line Anet to close those exploits down. Make the AI smart enough not to let is trap it into a corner and stack our AoE onto it. It’s just cheating.

Since you allege that stacking is “cheating,” please explain in a sentence or two exactly what game rule or code of conduct it breaks. I am sure many others are eager for your clarification.

I think you’re just trying to defend yourself here for the sake of self defense. Don’t feel bad bro, I’ve done it too. We all have.

Now it may not break the terms and agreements we clicked I agree to, however this is a Roleplaying game.

Have you you ever played an RPG tabletop style? With a dungeon master and stuff?

Now imagine you are in that game and your strategy is, I’m going to take my pewter figure and place it outside the gaming mat. That way I my character can throw objects at the monsters and the monsters who are stuck in the game world can’t reach my pewter figure because it is placed conveniently off the gaming mat.

Now, in the first edition dungeons and dragons ruleset, there’s no rule that says you got to put your little figure in the same table as the monsters and other players. But it doesn’t stop it from being cheating regardless. In a tabletop game the dungeon master would just say, stop being a cheeseball and take your figure and put it back I to the ganeboard.

Stacking is just the same. Players find the specific spot that the AI can’t seem to get a good aim lock on, then we stand there invulnerable while the boss gets killed by our spells.

That my friend is the definition of cheating

I am not trying to “defend myself” against anything. I simply asked you to explain exactly how stacking in GW 2 (not some irrelevant table top RPG analogy you made up) is “cheating” or an “exploit.” And the answer is, you won’t and can’t. Great work. You failed to defend your most basic charge.

I’m sorry, tried to relate the idea as a parable and I should have been more specific.
At grid coordinates (I’m not telling you here) there is a zone I. Which the monster ends up da I g slightly downward and all if it’s attack then have their primary focus directed away from the pmayer even though the player is physically right next to it. While the processor reads that the monster is indeed making valid attacks, it does. It realize that those attacks are not on the same Z axis plane as the player. This causes all if it’s attacks to miss. Unlike the computer, the players know exactly which spot to stand in and be able to take full advantage of this Glitch in level design coding.

There are multiple spots such as this in every dungeon and you pro-runners know where they are just like I do.

It is cheating straight out. Anet may say it’s not an exploit because they are too busy to fix it, but any fair minded person if they were running a tabletop campaign would try and put a stop to such behavior as soon as they could.

Fenrir.3609:

Except stacking isn’t an exploit, nor is it cheating (borderline or otherwise).

It is also somewhat rich to mention morals given the fact that you insinuated earlier that you go into specific req dungeon groups with non req gear/builds, in order to annoy people.

Here it is a matter if intent more than result.

I try and make things tough on those guys because I hate bullies and am trying to get some small sort of justice.

However taking advantage of an exploit I can say with confidence isn’t for the sake of balancing the scales of karma. It is for greed and co venience

Derenek, what you’re describing is indeed an exploit. If you know of locations where players can AFK kill bosses while invulnerable to their attacks, please email a description of those locations to exploits@arena.net. They will be fixed.

What you should be keen of, however, is the difference between stacking and the exploit you’re describing. Stacking in the non-exploitative sense is what was popular during the FGS era where you’d pull a boss against a wall and then FGS 4 into that wall to obliterate it. Stacking in the current meta is more about staying within buff-distance of other players while smashing the boss with Ice Bow 5 and then 4. “Stacking” really just means staying close to your pals, and doesn’t require abusing mob AI to AFK kill them.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Derenek, what you’re describing is indeed an exploit. If you know of locations where players can AFK kill bosses while invulnerable to their attacks, please email a description of those locations to exploits@arena.net. They will be fixed.

What you should be keen of, however, is the difference between stacking and the exploit you’re describing. Stacking in the non-exploitative sense is what was popular during the FGS era where you’d pull a boss against a wall and then FGS 4 into that wall to obliterate it. Stacking in the current meta is more about staying within buff-distance of other players while smashing the boss with Ice Bow 5 and then 4. “Stacking” really just means staying close to your pals, and doesn’t require abusing mob AI to AFK kill them.

After Saturday when I finally got fed up with it I sent in several reports. Let’s see if anything happens

I only see stacking in pugs. In my run I stack maybe 5-10 times in dungeon, and it’s the same for most good dungeon runners.

So what are you asking from Anet exactly?

Derenek.8931:

Please Anet program into the dungeons AI behavior that discourages stacking.
( apparently there’s a leet speak acronym for people all standing In the exact same spot so that the character models clip into each other.) but to make it clear for so e who didn’t understand the point I was making.

Ok here my question.

- Do you mean stacking on top of each other specifically or do you mean discourage a group of 5 people meleing the boss close to each other?

- If you mean stacking specifically the AI have nothing to do with this. You would need to make walking through enemies and friend impossible. I could understand that. Anyway, any decent dungeon runner do almost no stacking so it would only affect pugs that don’t know any better. It could create some issue of people blocking each other, but i don’t think it’s a big problem.

Derenek.8931:

One person is somehow able to type and run at the same time (macro maybe?) we’re bypassing these mobs and going to the boss!

You mean auto-run? Option / Control options / movement, it’s the 8th key bind, just after dodge.

The entire act of merging bodies Into one cohesive entity. Being close by each other is one thing, but actually being inside each other is taking things to the extreme when it comes to min/maxing AoE damage

Derenek.8931:

The entire act of merging bodies Into one cohesive entity. Being close by each other is one thing, but actually being inside each other is taking things to the extreme when it comes to min/maxing AoE damage

It doesn’t min/max AoE damage at all. Like zero.

Derenek.8931:

Here it is a matter if intent more than result.

I try and make things tough on those guys because I hate bullies and am trying to get some small sort of justice.

However taking advantage of an exploit I can say with confidence isn’t for the sake of balancing the scales of karma. It is for greed and co venience

Again “stacking” is not an exploit, nor is it cheating.

How exactly are people who want to group with like minded players, who actively create a group specifically to group with said players “bullies”? I mean really?

At this point I have to assume you are straight up trolling.

Derenek – are you NA or EU?

If you’re NA, please send me an invite in game and take me to a dungeon/fractal run of your choice. PUG or form your own group.

I would like to see first hand exactly what you’re so concerned about.

From this whole thread, it’s still not entirely clear what behavior you’re most at odds with. Stacking/LOS/Bugging a boss/mobs… all are not the same thing.

Thanks.

Derenek, can you please try tightening up your term usage? Frankly your posts have become an incoherent jumble of misused terms, and that makes it difficult to follow exactly what you are saying.

Derenek.8931:

Fenrir.3609:

Except stacking isn’t an exploit, nor is it cheating (borderline or otherwise).

It is also somewhat rich to mention morals given the fact that you insinuated earlier that you go into specific req dungeon groups with non req gear/builds, in order to annoy people.

Here it is a matter if intent more than result.

I try and make things tough on those guys because I hate bullies and am trying to get some small sort of justice.

However taking advantage of an exploit I can say with confidence isn’t for the sake of balancing the scales of karma. It is for greed and co venience

Wow, dude, please, go step away adn think about what you just said.

You think it’s morally correct to abuse people at random who fall into a certain category just because you’ve run into some bad apples from that same category?

Truly, wow. I mean morals are subjective, and everyones are going to have their differences but even though I expect this from people here, I really didn’t think you’d go this far.

Personally I’m one of those guys who does the Mentor dungeon runs when I’m asked. I’ve taught a fwe people Arah and I’ve even lead 3 lvl 50’s and 1 fresh 80 through CM. However, I’m not always interested in doing that stuff, it’s generally more wearing and not always what I want to do after work. So if I load up and try to get a group that’s more my style of play, you think it’s ok to come in and abuse me? Just because I happen to have the same play style as someone who abused you before?

It’s one thing to have a prejudice against zerks, fact is there are a lot of people who are jerks, but acting on your prejudices just makes you a bigot. If you’re going to preach tolerance it goes both ways, demanding it while not having any yourself isn’t how it works.

Well it ensure all the AoE circles have the same central point and outward radius. That causes maximum damage output in the smallest area.

I understand the strategy, but it’s one if those glitchy strategies that can only work in video games. In real life humans can’t phase into each other’s bodies.

Anet turned collision off on purpose I understand.

But do you honestly believe they turned off collision so people could stand inside each other while casting spells? I’m pretty sure it was for reasons of not impeding movement, not to be used as an exploit. But oh well, I’m in the minority…

What im seeing in this thread is Derenek wrongly referring to safespotting as stacking. Stacking can happen anywhere including in the open. Theres nothing exploity about it. In some situations it can cause a group to wipe.

Abusing AI by using specific spots is not stacking. Thats a safespot. But obviously stacking is a symptom because a safespot is only a small area and you cant spread a team out in a safespot.

Hopefully that clears up the misunderstanding.

ps. How is multiple people using AOE on the same location glitchy? I cannot comprehend how you can come to that conclusion. And this is completely unrelated to people stacking anyway seeing as most AOE’s are ranged ground targeted lol.

Exactly. I think you blame the wrong thing.

I think he also confuse walling with stacking. Walling improve some AoE damage, stacking doesn’t.

You can stack while walling, but you don’t need to.

spoj.9672:

What im seeing in this thread is Derenek wrongly referring to safespotting as stacking. Stacking can happen anywhere including in the open. Theres nothing exploity about it. In some situations it can cause a group to wipe.

Abusing AI by using specific spots is not stacking. Thats a safespot. But obviously stacking is a symptom because a safespot is only a small area and you cant spread a team out in a safespot.

Hopefully that clears up the misunderstanding.

ps. How is multiple people using AOE on the same location glitchy? I cannot comprehend how you can come to that conclusion. And this is completely unrelated to people stacking anyway seeing as most AOE’s are ranged ground targeted lol.

Probably because I’m in the programming camp that believes that good virtual world design is as realistic as possible. Not everyone agrees with that, I can dig it. So when I see people taking advantage of physical behaviors that are caused by imperfections in the virtual world (imperfections referring to areas in which realism isn’t really holding up well) I see it as glitchy

Derenek.8931:

Well it ensure all the AoE circles have the same central point and outward radius. That causes maximum damage output in the smallest area.

I can center my Meteor shower from 1200 range away and it will do the same dmg. Stacking won’t help that at all.

You heard that stacking increase damage. That’s because a Meteor shower for exemple will do some weird thing on a wall and concentrate their AoE in a smaller area. That’s the wall, not stacking that do that.

I was abused by those filthy berserkers too, I know how it feels man.