Guild Wars 2

Thaddeus.4891:

Why can’t both coexist? In most game I played, I try to 100% complete it. But why can’t a speed runner be able to well speed run it? I have fun watching speed run too.

Because the two game play styles conflict. So either you split the two game modes, or you disallow one of the two. If you still allow both, then you are ultimate responsible as a game designer for the problems that arise from allowing it.

Thaddeus.4891:

Why do people need everybody to complete the content like they prefer?

That is only a one-sided approach to the real issue: Players not having fun together and being kicked for wanting to play a dungeon.

Thaddeus.4891:

And tbh I don’t mind if they change dungeon to limit a bit of skipping.

That is what gating mechanics are for.

Thaddeus.4891:

I preferred the older dungeon reward system where mobs were dropping silvers and at the end we only got the 26 silver chest with no 1 gold bonus chest. You wanted to kill mobs to get the most reward, but you could speed run through it if you wanted. They changed it because ppl were farming the mobs, but they could give a diminishing reward on the money these mob give, it’s just way easier to remove it all and give 1 bonus chest at the end.

It’s a sloppy solution. They should have encouraged fighting mobs, and exploring the dungeon. They could have had a reward that scales the more mobs you fight, so players don’t farm the first boss over and over. Or they could have had branching paths, with randomized chests and bosses (which also encourages exploration and fighting enemies).

Thaddeus.4891:

The problem, is that most people that complain about skipping propose negative reinforcement.

Then lets hear positive reinforcements.

Thaddeus.4891:

They want a infinite leash

The long leashes in GW1 worked pretty well.

Thaddeus.4891:

or put additional door that won’t open before you kill everything or stuff like that.

I’m okay with this gating mechanic, even if it feels rather artificial.

Thaddeus.4891:

But when fight give you nothing and are not fun, it’s not a good idea to force people to do those fight.

So that is why you should improve the rewards and the combat, so they are more fun.

Satenia.9025:

There is no need for me to do either. People can all have fun by forming corresponding groups and happily co-exist. How this is being done has been explained by me and others. I have no desire to further participate in a discussion where you want to limit everyone to one single approach to content (which happens to be what you favor yourself).

Unwillingness to see things from the point of view of different players. Not a good attribute for any game designer.

I never said I wanted to limit anyone to a single approach. I just said that the designers failed to succeed at their intended game play, and skipping is now running wild. What my preferred way of doing dungeons is, is irrelevant to the discussion. What matters is what the game designers intended.

OR we could just leave the easier dungeons that are “face-roll-capable” so new players have somewhere to actually learn what their skills do and how to play in a group setting.
While asking for more level 80 dungeon content, with suitable interesting mechanics and rewards?

Oh wait.. we already did that, but we’re still waiting. :-)

Artemis Thuras.8795:

OR we could just leave the easier dungeons that are “face-roll-capable” so new players have somewhere to actually learn what their skills do and how to play in a group setting.
While asking for more level 80 dungeon content, with suitable interesting mechanics and rewards?

Oh wait.. we already did that, but we’re still waiting. :-)

The thing is, I don’t feel that the current dungeons succeed at that either. If you consider that AC is for all intends and purposes the first dungeon that players are faced with (also level-wise), it really does a poor job at teaching the core mechanics of playing a dungeon.

Design wise, the molten facility does a much better job at slowly introducing mechanics and having a learning curve. At least, the version of it before they cut it up for Fractals. Now they have kind of ruined that flow in Molten Facility, which is a shame.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

OR we could just leave the easier dungeons that are “face-roll-capable” so new players have somewhere to actually learn what their skills do and how to play in a group setting.
While asking for more level 80 dungeon content, with suitable interesting mechanics and rewards?

Oh wait.. we already did that, but we’re still waiting. :-)

The thing is, I don’t feel that the current dungeons succeed at that either. If you consider that AC is for all intends and purposes the first dungeon that players are faced with (also level-wise), it really does a poor job at teaching the core mechanics of playing a dungeon.

Design wise, the molten facility does a much better job at slowly introducing mechanics and having a learning curve. At least, the version of it before they cut it up for Fractals. Now they have kind of ruined that flow in Molten Facility, which is a shame.

its not about teaching “dungeon mechanics”

see this part of the quote:
" so new players have somewhere to actually learn what their skills do and how to play in a group setting. "

Artemis Thuras.8795:

its not about teaching “dungeon mechanics”

see this part of the quote:
" so new players have somewhere to actually learn what their skills do and how to play in a group setting. "

I don’t think dungeons teach this either. Fractals does perhaps, because it has a more gradual difficulty curve.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Because the two game play styles conflict. So either you split the two game modes, or you disallow one of the two. If you still allow both, then you are ultimate responsible as a game designer for the problems that arise from allowing it..

But HOW they conflict each other. I can full clear and I can speed clear. I can do both. What is the conflict? The only conflict I see is when people wanting different thing are in the same party. That’s not a design problem, that a LFG problem. People that like full clear are in minority, but they can’t accept that they gonna need to work harder to find a group with the same goal. Dungeon have a lot of problem, but I don’t see any problem with that. They could improve it for sure, but that’s not a problem.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

What matters is what the game designers intended.

No it doesn’t. What matters is what is in the game. If you can do it without exploit, then it’s part of the game. When it’s a clear exploit, then the dev remove it and ban people. When the didn’t intended something, but don’t like it, they just remove it (FGS). When they didn’t intended something, but don’t have time to change it or like it, they don’t touch it and we continue to use it. I couldn’t give a crap about what the dev intended. I bet a lot of what’s going on in their game is unintended. And what? Sometime it’s a good thing, sometime it’s not. If they don’t like it, then they just have to remove it from the game. It’s pointless to argree about what the devs intended or not. We don’t know what they intended or not, it’s pure speculation and really not worth the time.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Then lets hear positive reinforcements.

- Remove the bonus chest at the end and give some reward from killing mobs. Especially optional mobs.
- Don’t make skippable mobs annoying. Those chain CC on trash mobs is an horrible idea and just push ppl to skip them rather than fight them.
- Make interesting fight. Optional mobs are usually just a bunch of mobs put in your path. Nothing special or interesting about them.

Every fight should be worth the reward.

You can even put some crazy idea. Killing mobs increase a bar and the higher the bar is, the higher the reward at the end is.

Anyway, this isn’t really important. Anet is clearly focusing on fractals over dungeon and skipping isn’t really an issue in fractal anyway. Not that I consider skipping an issue in dungeon either.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Because the two game play styles conflict. So either you split the two game modes, or you disallow one of the two. If you still allow both, then you are ultimate responsible as a game designer for the problems that arise from allowing it.

This is an extremely uncreative position. If you think its impossible to design content that is challenging and able to be be eventually speed-run you are only demonstrating the limits of your own cognition, and not talking in universals.

NikeEU.7690:

This is an extremely uncreative position. If you think its impossible to design content that is challenging and able to be be eventually speed-run you are only demonstrating the limits of your own cognition, and not talking in universals.

Lets not forget that these issues with dungeons aren’t new. GW1 had them too.

You will always have people that want to skip dungeons, and those that don’t. And that causes conflicts. I don’t think its impossible to design content that satisfies both groups. But I do think it is ill-advised, because you are opening quite a can of wurms when you try to do both at the same time. The two conflict with one another.

Guess who has to come out on top.

deSade.9437:

Guess who has to come out on top.

Everyone?

dlonie.6547:

deSade.9437:

Guess who has to come out on top.

Everyone?

Ding-ding, thanks for playing anyway. Here’s the consolation prize.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

its not about teaching “dungeon mechanics”

see this part of the quote:
" so new players have somewhere to actually learn what their skills do and how to play in a group setting. "

I don’t think dungeons teach this either. Fractals does perhaps, because it has a more gradual difficulty curve.

Bolded a key word for you, evidently the message isn’t getting through.

*Learning to play is up to each player.

*Speed of learning is also up to each player.

*Easier dungeons give a location environment in which to do this.

I’m sorry if you need to be led by the hand while learning to play.

idk, It think it’s fair to criticize the learning curve between open-world and instanced PvE. At least, back when the content wasn’t as stale as a 8-day-old bagel, dungeons were far, far more difficult than anything most players had ever seen.

Having a low level dungeon that teaches mechanics would be a great thing. But that’s not really what AC does these day :/

dlonie.6547:

idk, It think it’s fair to criticize the learning curve between open-world and instanced PvE. At least, back when the content wasn’t as stale as a 8-day-old bagel, dungeons were far, far more difficult than anything most players had ever seen.

Having a low level dungeon that teaches mechanics would be a great thing. But that’s not really what AC does these day :/

True. We don’t see it now, but the burrows in AC are a big dps gate for new players.

dlonie.6547:

idk, It think it’s fair to criticize the learning curve between open-world and instanced PvE. At least, back when the content wasn’t as stale as a 8-day-old bagel, dungeons were far, far more difficult than anything most players had ever seen.

Having a low level dungeon that teaches mechanics would be a great thing. But that’s not really what AC does these day :/

aye. going from essentially solo play → group play is a heck of a change in direction and sometimes playstyle.

I suspect if AC wasn’t as rewarding as completing harder, higher level dungeons – most of us would leave it to those who are learning. Another couple of arah-level dungeons would be awesome.. ( something I suspect many are sick of repeating)

Sadly anet didn’t want AC to become desolate (oddly, I don’t think it would be a problem).
And this, as many are well aware, is where time:skill:reward ratio is screwy.

Thaddeus.4891:

True. We don’t see it now, but the burrows in AC are a big dps gate for new players.

I agree.

Thaddeus.4891:

- Remove the bonus chest at the end and give some reward from killing mobs. Especially optional mobs.
- Don’t make skippable mobs annoying. Those chain CC on trash mobs is an horrible idea and just push ppl to skip them rather than fight them.
- Make interesting fight. Optional mobs are usually just a bunch of mobs put in your path. Nothing special or interesting about them.

Every fight should be worth the reward.

You can even put some crazy idea. Killing mobs increase a bar and the higher the bar is, the higher the reward at the end is.

I think all of these are good ideas to improve the dungeons.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

I suspect if AC wasn’t as rewarding as completing harder, higher level dungeons – most of us would leave it to those who are learning. Another couple of arah-level dungeons would be awesome.. ( something I suspect many are sick of repeating)

I’d love to see a Domain of Anguish in GW2. Something that really forces strategy on the players. And I agree that the reward should have some relation to the difficulty of a dungeon.

Can’t the PHIW leave this forum already and go back to explaining how shoutbow is the best dungeon build back in the game discussion forum? This isn’t even fun anymore.

oxtred.7658:

Can’t the PHIW leave this forum already and go back to explaining how shoutbow is the best dungeon build back in the game discussion forum? This isn’t even fun anymore.

O.o

link pls

Where’s that dead horse gif? With the gentleman? And the beatings?

Gyler.8150:

Where’s that dead horse gif? With the gentleman? And the beatings?

http://gph.to/1INOZsD

Too lazy to dl it and stuff.

Most people are game designers. Just like how you don’t need to be a professional chef to cook, you don’t need to be a professional game designer to design games. I am sure many of us in the past has created weird field games with our friends as children and guess what that is? It’s game designing! I honestly don’t see how you, Mad Queen, are addressing the problem. All I read is you stating a problem, you wanting a solution to your desired goal and you talking about how you are a game designer. I do not see any actual concrete solutions, instead we get generic one worded answers that does not amount to anything and not only that you fail to address the potential problems that arise from your one worded answers and not only that your one worded solutions only caters to how you want the game to be played which is clear all mobs. So your one worded answer just happened to alienate a good percentage of the players that play dungeons. As a game designer you have to accept that some people ACTUALLY love to skip and find it fun and some love to clear everything.

Indeed! Some of the most fun I had in this game was learning to pull of the skips in Arah on the different classes. It’s a unique sort of challenge in this game that I really find enjoyable.

If you look at Dredge fractal, and the Caithe Living Story mission, you can see how the designers are trying to make stealthing more engaging by playing around with the idea of units that can detect stealth or vision cones.

I had a lot of fun in the Caithe instances in hardmode. Honest fun.
Not a lot of replayability, but really. Nice.
I like it when I have time to think and come up with something sneaky.

I think there’s a lot to praise in SOME of what they’ve done, but I won’t praise until they put all these good things into fruition.
Dungeon with mordrem mobs, because they’re interesting.
Instanced map with strong bosses.
Solo arenas.

None of this will happen, so I won’t praise. It’s just laid there to waste, now.
Like handing out cantharelles to swines…

I wish this thread was closed yesterday…

EcoRI.9273:

I honestly don’t see how you, Mad Queen, are addressing the problem. All I read is you stating a problem, you wanting a solution to your desired goal and you talking about how you are a game designer.

I’m not talking about that at all. I merely explained my interest in one particular question. I really don’t see why you make such a big deal out of it. We all have jobs (well most of us anyway).

EcoRI.9273:

and not only that your one worded solutions only caters to how you want the game to be played which is clear all mobs.

This shows that you haven’t paid much attention to what I wrote at all. You probably just quickly skipped over all that text.

EcoRI.9273:

So your one worded answer just happened to alienate a good percentage of the players that play dungeons. As a game designer you have to accept that some people ACTUALLY love to skip and find it fun and some love to clear everything.

You paid ZERO attention to anything I said.

this thread is literally just mad queen frothing at the mouth and a bunch of handlers trying to put her down.

move on everyone, let her froth in peace.

Even an employed game designer isnt necessarily better at designing content than your average invested intelligent player. Conceptual design is something anyone can do. Claiming you are a designer to try and justify your ideas as superior just makes you look like an idiot. Good ideas stand on their own.

spoj.9672:

Claiming you are a designer to try and justify your ideas as superior just makes you look like an idiot. Good ideas stand on their own.

Grumble, not something I did at all. Read back. I merely explained why a particular point of view lies close to my heart.

maha.7902:

this thread is literally just mad queen frothing at the mouth and a bunch of handlers trying to put her down.

move on everyone, let her froth in peace.

It takes a little more to have me frothing at the mouth. An Adam Sandler movie might do the trick.

spoj.9672:

Even an employed game designer isnt necessarily better at designing content than your average invested intelligent player.

Even a professional surgeon isn’t necessarily better at performing surgery than your average invested intelligent patient.

You know if that were true, no game company would care about degrees in game design, or work experience in the game industry.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

spoj.9672:

Even an employed game designer isnt necessarily better at designing content than your average invested intelligent player.

Even a professional surgeon isn’t necessarily better at performing surgery than your average invested intelligent patient.

Not really the same thing.

Game designer is usually not a job, but a position. People go to school and start in animation, graphic design, game art & design, programing, etc.

To be a surgeon you need to know the human body and how to fix it. As a game designer you need to use your imagination to create interesting design. School can give you tools and experience will help you to learn from past mistake. But overall, anyone can come up with good game design idea.

Everybody want to be a game designer. But usually, game designer are programmer, animator, artist, graphic designer, etc that receive a game design role at their job. Everybody can come up with idea, that’s not enough, you need to apply these idea into a video game.

Thaddeus.4891:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

spoj.9672:

Even an employed game designer isnt necessarily better at designing content than your average invested intelligent player.

Even a professional surgeon isn’t necessarily better at performing surgery than your average invested intelligent patient.

Not really the same thing.

Game designer is usually not a job, but a position. People go to school and start in animation, graphic design, game art & design, programing, etc.

To be a surgeon you need to know the human body and how to fix it. As a game designer you need to use your imagination to create interesting design. School can give you tools and experience will help you to learn from past mistake. But overall, anyone can come up with good game design idea.

Everybody want to be a game designer. But usually, game designer are programmer, animator, artist, graphic designer, etc that receive a game design role at their job. Everybody can come up with idea, that’s not enough, you need to apply these idea into a video game.

The fact that this has to be explained to a “game designer” is kind of funny.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Even a professional surgeon isn’t necessarily better at performing surgery than your average invested intelligent patient.

You know if that were true, no game company would care about degrees in game design, or work experience in the game industry.

That’s a false equivalence. Surgeons, and other professionals, are licensed by the government and/or professional associations in order to be legally allowed to practice their trade. As far as I know, there is no such barrier of entry for game designers.

A more fitting comparison would be a game designer with a cook at a restaurant. Some go to culinary school. Some start washing dishes at an Applebees. Some game designers go to college. Some start by being QA testers.

Most people will care very much where their surgeon is certified. Most will not care where their chef was trained.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

You know if that were true, no game company would care about degrees in game design, or work experience in the game industry.

You can have a great content designer have no educational background. It’s more important to know (1) the game, and (2) the tools to build the content. Creativity is much more important than education with that job, because most companies will use different content creation tools that require on the job training. Your degree in software engineering isn’t going to do much if your ignorance of Mesmer Portals or Reflects makes you design trivial, pointless content.

Honestly i think these arguments like “I own a software development company and i could do a much better job at fixing the game than any of these kitten devs at anet, but i wont do it because anet pays too low” and “anet should improve the enemy’s AI to fix the game” are really stupid. Off course fixing the mob’s AI would improve any game’s balance issues, you can use that argument on any game ever made but i dont think it’s as easy as these people make it look like. There were news about anet hiring a company speciallized in AI maybe for a new boss or raid, so i dont think you forum geniuses are really more capable than then to improve this issue.

These arguments like “i would do a much better job than any anet dev here” made me remind of this video from Kate Welch that she made after she left anet, she made that video during that PR disaster that was that dev interview saying there wouldn’t be any new dungeon or SAB development:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEAUIiD4DHw

NikeEU.7690:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Even a professional surgeon isn’t necessarily better at performing surgery than your average invested intelligent patient.

You know if that were true, no game company would care about degrees in game design, or work experience in the game industry.

That’s a false equivalence. Surgeons, and other professionals, are licensed by the government and/or professional associations in order to be legally allowed to practice their trade. As far as I know, there is no such barrier of entry for game designers.

A more fitting comparison would be a game designer with a cook at a restaurant. Some go to culinary school. Some start washing dishes at an Applebees. Some game designers go to college. Some start by being QA testers.

Most people will care very much where their surgeon is certified. Most will not care where their chef was trained.

Actually a chef and/or cook has to be licensed by either the local city or state government in order to work with food. They need to be legally allowed to work with food. And know the various cooking temps and proper procedures for handling food.

Of course the requirements are different in each state, but generally at the very least the business owner and/or manager are required to have one.

pdavis.8031:

Actually a chef and/or cook has to be licensed by either the local city or state government in order to work with food. They need to be legally allowed to work with food. And know the various cooking temps and proper procedures for handling food.

Of course the requirements are different in each state, but generally at the very least the business owner and/or manager are required to have one.

You can register online, go take the exam and tadam. You have your food handling certificate. That doesn’t mean you are good at your job, only that you do it safely.

pdavis.8031:

Actually a chef and/or cook has to be licensed by either the local city or state government in order to work with food. They need to be legally allowed to work with food. And know the various cooking temps and proper procedures for handling food.

Of course the requirements are different in each state, but generally at the very least the business owner and/or manager are required to have one.

a 30 min online course for 25 bucks for a “food handlers permit” is NOT relevant to this concept.
the 8 hour and couple hundred dollar course for manager… eh maybe.

I can confirm that somewhere in this world this “license” is a 4hour course. Free. It doesn’t teach you in any way how to cook, how to make interesting dishes or anything. It’s just there to certify that you can handle it without poisoning your customers.
So yeah, boohoo. It’s a little different from being a surgeon.
More creative, though

.

dlonie.6547:

.

Deragled?

deSade.9437:

dlonie.6547:

.

Deragled?

You get an A for effort, you rascally little scamp.

Thaddeus.4891:

Not really the same thing.
Game designer is usually not a job, but a position. People go to school and start in animation, graphic design, game art & design, programing, etc.

Incorrect. There are courses for game design specifically, and you can get a degree in game design. It is most definitely a job.

Thaddeus.4891:

As a game designer you need to use your imagination to create interesting design. School can give you tools and experience will help you to learn from past mistake. But overall, anyone can come up with good game design idea.

No. That is an insulting over simplification of what game design is. There is a lot more to it than that.

Thaddeus.4891:

Everybody want to be a game designer. But usually, game designer are programmer, animator, artist, graphic designer, etc that receive a game design role at their job.

Completely false in every way possible. There are many people who study specifically to become a game designer. In the process they have to learn about all other facets of game development, but that doesn’t mean that a graphic designer is automatically suited to be a game designer. Just like someone who makes a nice drawing of Lara Croft isn’t automatically an artist.

Thaddeus & Ropechef:

It is relevent to the concept. As the point NikeEU was making that Game developers don’t need any sort of state/government license or certification, thus the comparison of a surgeon was not correct. But the cook to game developer comparison also doesn’t work, as in many states/cities/counties in the US require a state/city/county certification and license in order to work with food.
It doesn’t matter how easy it is to obtain a permit/certification. The point is that the comparison doesn’t quite work either.

Although I am still confused as to how this whole thing came about, and what it has to do with players stacking or not…

pdavis.8031:

Although I am still confused as to how this whole thing came about, and what it has to do with players stacking or not…

I don’t know. I’m not the one who brought it up.

But bringing this back on topic. I believe that game designers are responsible for how players play their content. They are after all responsible for designing the game play. And I think any decent game designer would take responsibility for any emergent game play, such as all the stacking and speed running.

dlonie.6547:

deSade.9437:

dlonie.6547:

.

Deragled?

You get an A for effort, you rascally little scamp.

Ahhhhhhh please please love me I luv you!
/runs around
/falls to the ground in shock

pdavis.8031:

Thaddeus & Ropechef:

It is relevent to the concept. As the point NikeEU was making that Game developers don’t need any sort of state/government license or certification, thus the comparison of a surgeon was not correct. But the cook to game developer comparison also doesn’t work, as in many states/cities/counties in the US require a state/city/county certification and license in order to work with food.
It doesn’t matter how easy it is to obtain a permit/certification. The point is that the comparison doesn’t quite work either.

Although I am still confused as to how this whole thing came about, and what it has to do with players stacking or not…

Well since every business in the country requires a local permit to operate then no comparison is valid if taken to that extreme.

What is valid is that never in my life have I asked a cook where he was trained. I have paid attention to where my doctor went to school. I have never cared where a game designer went to school or what certifications he has, but I would never get surgery done by a surgeon who wasn’t board certified in that specific field.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Just like someone who makes a nice drawing of Lara Croft isn’t automatically an artist.

O.o

That’s certainly news to me.

What, do artists need degrees, certifications, and licenses now?

merrily squashes the beloved forum bug

Honestly, PvF wouldn’t be the same without it at this point.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Just like someone who makes a nice drawing of Lara Croft isn’t automatically an artist.

What?? If you can make a nice drawing of Lara Croft you are an artist. You are an amateur artist, not a professional one because you don’t get paid to draw, but you are an artist.

And apparently you have the skill to become a professional artist if that’s what you want.

How to get a thread closed 101 Kappa
How’s the weather?