Guild Wars 2

Mourningcry.9428:

FenrirSlakt.3692:

My my. Have we resorted to name-calling this soon? It usually occurs somewhere around page two.

Even the threads are getting more optimized

phiw need better ai so they just dont stand there in our aoe

Jerus.4350:

Random dodges from NPCs are annoying though. Dodges that follow certain rules are still manipulatable. And dodges that are endless and just OP are well… just OP.

If it were, “dodge out of AE circle” on a say 20s reuse, then sure, you drop a weak or quickly reusable one initially then drop your bomb in the replaced NPC… still maniplatable and simply one more step. If it’s “dodge AE circles 50% of the time” then it’s just this mobile enemy where you drop any attacks that use AE circles as it’s no longer worth using them outside of maybe Meteor and Ice bow (currently still worth praying for it). If it’s dodge out of every AE circle, again, you just don’t use any AE circles becuase it’s just going to lead to a ton of evade frames.

These are behavior classes. Being a game designer myself I understand where you are coming from. A game should follow a pattern that can be learned and overcome by a skilled opponent. You’d program in a standard if then clause. If x or greater damage is sustained over Y seconds, dodge roll backward. Then establish a dodge roll cooldown on the monster. Then add in the secondary clause, if an AOE field exists next to the player roll 60% chance not to enter the field until it dissipates. This will give the monster the appearance if being able to make mistakes like a human. It also will encourage players to place fields around the monster to either trap or herd it into a desired direction.

So really, how would you approach it and keep it fun and keep the options in the players hands? Shoudl we not be allowed to use field damage? Isn’t that restricting our options? Is having to use them slightly more intelligently really going to change anything?

AoE when used on a player elicites certain responses. The player will take a moment to realize it is even happening, then depending on how much damage is being taken compared to how long it will take to kill the opponent the pmayer decides to either stay in and go Ham or get the heck out of dodge. Recognizing you got hit 1-2 seconds, deciding to move .5-1 second, then actually dodging .5 seconds. By adding in the chance to stay clause, there is a chance you’ll get the full AoE effect, and also a chance you’ll only get 3-4 seconds of it. Then say another pmayer tosses in another AoE to the right of it. You just herded the monster into a corner or maybe even off a bridge. Fun times

Many of the monsters in HoT will have a kickback or taunt mechanic as well as fear. They can force players to move as well as being moved themselves. The dungeon will take on a much more PVPesque feel as monsters try and move players and players try to move monsters. A warrior can then taunt one monster while an ele puts up a fire wall to hold back it’s allies. See how it adds tactical depth? Rather than all monsters go to location X and stand there until you die.

I just don’t really see a way to have a fun change to the status quo. I haven’t seen a game before do it well, as most mobile enemies have always been annoying, unless the challenge is simply herding them as part of a gimmicky event.

Right now the mobs are beyond stupid. I’m not talking about a grandmaster chess program here, but simple sets of AI behaviors. Such as the ones you can assign to your party members in Dragon Age, Complex behaviors can be generated by interactions of very simple rules. In AI programming and biology, it is what as known as an emergent property.

Derenek.8931:

Why bother defending the status quo? You can’t say that people are happy with the dungeon design if so many people vehemently write so many posts against it.

Dungeons are easy; you may as well complain that people are “stacking in open world!”

Nokaru.7831:

Derenek.8931:

Why bother defending the status quo? You can’t say that people are happy with the dungeon design if so many people vehemently write so many posts against it.

Dungeons are easy; you may as well complain that people are “stacking in open world!”

People generally don’t stack in open world. Monsters tend to be much more mobile and have large patrol routes. The maps are usually more open so the stacking mechanic just isn’t useful. It’s what makes the open world gameplay so dynamic. Certain world bosses are vulnerable to the stacking cheese, like the shatterer and the volcano boss. I also think that those bosses should get a mass knockback, Fear, or Taunt skill in order to break up player stacks. For bosses like Thaumanova reactor’s fire elemental it should move directly towards the largest concentration of players and use its AoE to kill those cheaters

Derenek.8931:

Guys with legendaries like you and I could run at max difficulty, while casuals would run it at normal.

I’m surprised no no one sarcastically commented on that, I guess it’s my turn.

Yeah, i’m tired to play with<15k ap pugs. They don’t ping their banner when they enter as a third warrior in my lfg, and it means I don’t know if I can take dolyak signet of not. Most of them don’t dare pming me when I show them my epic juggernaut, though.

oxtred.7658:

Derenek.8931:

Guys with legendaries like you and I could run at max difficulty, while casuals would run it at normal.

I’m surprised no no one sarcastically commented on that, I guess it’s my turn.

Yeah, i’m tired to play with<15k ap pugs. They don’t ping their banner when they enter as a third warrior in my lfg, and it means I don’t know if I can take dolyak signet of not. Most of them don’t dare pming me when I show them my epic juggernaut, though.

Lmao! I usually purposely look for the weakest looking group… They are the most fun. Running with pros is usually a snoozefest. I also try and bring a non-meta toon as well. It makes some people mad, that I bring a necromancer and not a warrior or guardian… but people on their thousandth CoF run can afford to have some glitchy weird skill combo experiences. They got a thousand gold already, it’s not like they need to run a dungeon in five minutes.

But I normally just do that when the group is specifically asking for experienced 80’s with zerkers, then I bring a necro with rabid.

oxtred.7658:

Derenek.8931:

Guys with legendaries like you and I could run at max difficulty, while casuals would run it at normal.

I’m surprised no no one sarcastically commented on that, I guess it’s my turn.

Yeah, i’m tired to play with<15k ap pugs. They don’t ping their banner when they enter as a third warrior in my lfg, and it means I don’t know if I can take dolyak signet of not. Most of them don’t dare pming me when I show them my epic juggernaut, though.

Sounds like you used… “fear me” on them… Queue music!

Derenek.8931:

Jerus.4350:

Random dodges from NPCs are annoying though. Dodges that follow certain rules are still manipulatable. And dodges that are endless and just OP are well… just OP.

If it were, “dodge out of AE circle” on a say 20s reuse, then sure, you drop a weak or quickly reusable one initially then drop your bomb in the replaced NPC… still maniplatable and simply one more step. If it’s “dodge AE circles 50% of the time” then it’s just this mobile enemy where you drop any attacks that use AE circles as it’s no longer worth using them outside of maybe Meteor and Ice bow (currently still worth praying for it). If it’s dodge out of every AE circle, again, you just don’t use any AE circles becuase it’s just going to lead to a ton of evade frames.

These are behavior classes. Being a game designer myself I understand where you are coming from. A game should follow a pattern that can be learned and overcome by a skilled opponent. You’d program in a standard if then clause. If x or greater damage is sustained over Y seconds, dodge roll backward. Then establish a dodge roll cooldown on the monster. Then add in the secondary clause, if an AOE field exists next to the player roll 60% chance not to enter the field until it dissipates. This will give the monster the appearance if being able to make mistakes like a human. It also will encourage players to place fields around the monster to either trap or herd it into a desired direction.

So really, how would you approach it and keep it fun and keep the options in the players hands? Shoudl we not be allowed to use field damage? Isn’t that restricting our options? Is having to use them slightly more intelligently really going to change anything?

AoE when used on a player elicites certain responses. The player will take a moment to realize it is even happening, then depending on how much damage is being taken compared to how long it will take to kill the opponent the pmayer decides to either stay in and go Ham or get the heck out of dodge. Recognizing you got hit 1-2 seconds, deciding to move .5-1 second, then actually dodging .5 seconds. By adding in the chance to stay clause, there is a chance you’ll get the full AoE effect, and also a chance you’ll only get 3-4 seconds of it. Then say another pmayer tosses in another AoE to the right of it. You just herded the monster into a corner or maybe even off a bridge. Fun times

Many of the monsters in HoT will have a kickback or taunt mechanic as well as fear. They can force players to move as well as being moved themselves. The dungeon will take on a much more PVPesque feel as monsters try and move players and players try to move monsters. A warrior can then taunt one monster while an ele puts up a fire wall to hold back it’s allies. See how it adds tactical depth? Rather than all monsters go to location X and stand there until you die.

I just don’t really see a way to have a fun change to the status quo. I haven’t seen a game before do it well, as most mobile enemies have always been annoying, unless the challenge is simply herding them as part of a gimmicky event.

Right now the mobs are beyond stupid. I’m not talking about a grandmaster chess program here, but simple sets of AI behaviors. Such as the ones you can assign to your party members in Dragon Age, Complex behaviors can be generated by interactions of very simple rules. In AI programming and biology, it is what as known as an emergent property.

:D first, careful on your format, tough to read when it’s all in the same quote, asterisks can bold at least.

However, realize that what you proposed is quite open to manipulation and would actually strengthen the stacking plan. Put them in a corner, put AEs around him such that even a dodge out would still land inside it.

There’s always going to be a way to manipulate things, and getting overly complex won’t kill that.

You may think tactical, but give it a couple weeks and players will dumb it down and abuse the crap out of it. Though if you’re a Developer I’m sure you know this. You come up with a cool idea, players eventually tear it to peices and come up with a foolproof way to just destroy it. Seen it many times and I doubt I’ll ever not see it. For now I enjoy the journey to discover the strats that do that. Not a Developer here, but I used to be quite hardcore in one of my old games and got pretty close to the devs where I was part of a council that basically tried to help them prevent such issues best we could

Why do you want to break my efficient way of making gold in this game?

What exacly bothers you about OTHER players finishing content in half the time you do because they decide to stack?

You are given the option to invite people into your party,
you are given the option to look for a group and even write your own description
you are also given the option to kick players / leave a party when things turn out to be going differently from the way you want it to go.

It would have taken you less time then writing thing post to lfg a group and add no stacking to the description, and it would still fill up.

Does the current way of clearing this content stop you from finshing this content in another way? no

so tell me, what is the problem really?

That’s the challenge of good level design. How can you make something fun and challenging, but able to be beaten. While simultaneously making it difficult to exploit…
Fuzzy logic helps a lot in those cases. Booleans and other complex math generators can often make things a little too random for the average player to get a major exploit from.
Luckily for game designers, most game exploiters are also egomaniacs and will post their exploit all over YouTube and the web, so we can get a handle in those things pretty quickly. I’m not sure what Anet has been doing, I think their focus has been on other content and not so much on behavior coding… HoT hopefully will have closer attention payed to creature behavior, especially since it is supposedly end game content.

alwinp.2791:

Why do you want to break my efficient way of making gold in this game?

What exacly bothers you about OTHER players finishing content in half the time you do because they decide to stack?

You are given the option to invite people into your party,
you are given the option to look for a group and even write your own description
you are also given the option to kick players / leave a party when things turn out to be going differently from the way you want it to go.

It would have taken you less time then writing thing post to lfg a group and add no stacking to the description, and it would still fill up.

Does the current way of clearing this content stop you from finshing this content in another way? no

so tell me, what is the problem really?

Hmmm, my problem is that newer and more casual players that I group with and are friends with are turned off by the dungeon mechanics. It causes many to quit the game or just to avoid what I think is beautifully designed artwork and cool monsters. There’s so much awesome work that’s been out into the game by the developers and so much of it is just ignored for the sake of making virtual gold… All the while GW2 is shedding player base to inferior games like Elder Scrolls Online, FFXIV, and others of their ilk.

So it is both a philosophical problem with how players are just ignoring so much of Anet’s hard work and level/creature design along with the personal unhappiness I feel when friends and acquaintances just get sick of the inadequacies of certain parts of the game… Then quit.

It certainly doesn’t help matters when people ask about or make comments and suggestions to help improve the game and are met with flame wars or trolls who aren’t interested in gameplay fixes and polishing.

The game isn’t perfect, and I’m pretty sure the devs didn’t design those dungeons for players to ignore the entire levels except ten square meters of a square kilometer map.

Yeah, players should be able to play how they want, but you do know you guys are basically running an exploit. “How can I beat take advantage of the weakness if the monster AI?” Not through strategic or tactical means, but simply by using the cracks in faulty behavior coding.

I simply can’t agree because I don’t think we’re talking in such objective terms

Stacking/LoSing is a tactic used also in WvW, where you fight real opponants, because it works. So the idea of creating a system that doesn’t benefit from it is silly IMO.

Having overly mobile mobs simply is unfun, hence the abundant use of the Belka exploit to keep her stationary, it’s so popular that we as a community voted to allow it for solo records.

Fun is subjective, and even Exploits have become subjective. It’s just not so cut and dry.

I have no doubt they’re looking for better ways to challenge us and prevent such exploits. I just have full faith in the people and players that we’ll just find new tactics to make for easy kills, it just takes time. I want new content, but IMO going through and adding evade frames to things just isn’t the answer, I don’t think it’ll be fun to lose attacks to random evades, and tactical evades will just be abusable as well. There’s really no getting around it.

I enjoy good fights like Lupi, Grawl Shaman and Mai Trin, I hope they do more stuff like that. That’s what I see GW2 as being. I don’t see the TA Archers, or Hunter in the Hunter/crusher duo as fun, I just see it as an annoyance… one that’s still abuseable because we’ve learned the codeing and how to avoid triggering his evades

You see the new fire drake boss battle videos on YouTube? How mobile and action packed those battles were? That’s how I’m pretty sure most of the levels were designed to be like. The wing buffet knockback skill is essentially the same as what I suggested before with world bosses getting some stack breaker abilities. Then notice how the players had to strike from multiple sides to finally subdue the beast? Even watching that video was more fun than actually fighting many of the current world bosses. I know you guys even the ones trolling me now will get the expansion, play those new fights and think to yourselves, “wow, this actually is a lot better than running then stacking and waiting for an idiot monster to stand in my AoE until it does…”

Even if anet added more big, slow, unblockable moves. I get the sinking feeling that even backsteping or turning around and running out of range of those attacks would become the new stacking and would get the same hate.

I would also love to see anet throw some of our strategies back at us. Give some npc the old FGS and the icebow ( let us stack ). Maybe even some of the (s)pvp / WvW strategies like the cele engi/ele’s and what not that were once dominant.

Sarah

Sarahfull.4930:

Even if anet added more big, slow, unblockable moves. I get the sinking feeling that even backsteping or turning around and running out of range of those attacks would become the new stacking and would get the same hate.

I would also love to see anet throw some of our strategies back at us. Give some npc the old FGS and the icebow ( let us stack ). Maybe even some of the (s)pvp / WvW strategies like the cele engi/ele’s and what not that were once dominant.

Sarah

Yup, but moving to avoid, or fleeing In order to reposition are actual strategies. That’s actually playing the game! So much more so than the whole, “hahaha! This mob is so stupid it’s going to walk straight into twelve stacked layers of AoE and just sit there and soak up the damage!”

Players will try to stack, but will get wing buffeted off a platform. It will be much more of an active thinking and tactically attacking type of battle. You’re right, it’ll take about a week before players find the one spot on the platform that will cause the drake to glitch out and start doing somersaults in place, but I’m hoping Anet is actually going to pay attention this time and stop those glitches.

They also are implementing small, fast, mobile, and deadly swarm type mobs like
Mini-raptors. Hopefully that will also decrease a lot of the stand in place cheese as well.

I’m totally excited for the expansion to be released :-)

Stacking is generally what pug groups do and not always what good groups do. Sometimes it’s better to do but most of the time it’s just outdated pug tactics that were once efficient for the sake of fgsing bosses and pugs have no idea why they do it.

Give specific examples of where you are having problems with people doing it and I’ll tell you if it’s stupid to stack there or not :P

lol, my problem isn’t with dying or not beating the dungeons. I can actually solo a couple of them. My concern is just general gameplay mechanics and the effects they have on newer and more casual players.

Derenek.8931:

lol, my problem isn’t with dying or not beating the dungeons. I can actually solo a couple of them. My concern is just general gameplay mechanics and the effects they have on newer and more casual players.

Sure didn’t sounded like that on your opening post.

Because of PUGs you demand changes affecting gameplay mechanics, which a good player is capable of using to dictate the flow of an encounter.

Stacking is only useful in on of the following scenarios:
LOS’ing an enemy;

• to get them where you want them to be
• to force them into melee range
• to lure out a powerful attack or because of enviromental hazards
• to Forcing a group of trash into one spot, to be able to cleave them down all at once.

Note, that staying stacked is not optimal in most of these scenarios, it’s just PUGs do it, because of the lack of coordination. At the end of the day, PUGs tend to do, what’s the least complicated thing to do. “Simplicity” is their meta, hence why PUGs with 4 wars are still a common sight.

Derenek.8931:

You see the new fire drake boss battle videos on YouTube? How mobile and action packed those battles were? That’s how I’m pretty sure most of the levels were designed to be like. The wing buffet knockback skill is essentially the same as what I suggested before with world bosses getting some stack breaker abilities. Then notice how the players had to strike from multiple sides to finally subdue the beast? Even watching that video was more fun than actually fighting many of the current world bosses. I know you guys even the ones trolling me now will get the expansion, play those new fights and think to yourselves, “wow, this actually is a lot better than running then stacking and waiting for an idiot monster to stand in my AoE until it does…”

Didn’t need YT I had a chance to do it. And, within 2 attempts I was meleeing it, running my standard DPS rotation with one slot changed out for heavy CC for breakbar.

So, really, it was nothing special . Wing Buffet you circled (or more over rand through) when the animation started, very long tell. Or if you wre quick to notice/had the boon available, you’d just stability through it.

It was actually a very easy encounter, one that was not a challenge (even the devs said that wasn’t the intention just a more engaging fight than your standard open world content). When you did get knocked back you just flew into the sky and chilled till it was over, jumping right back into the action.

I’d lie if I said it wasn’t somewhat enjoyable, but I’d put it on the same level as say AC Spider Queen, not even close to a Lupi or Grawl Shaman level of interesting.

Jerus.4350:

Derenek.8931:

You see the new fire drake boss battle videos on YouTube? How mobile and action packed those battles were? That’s how I’m pretty sure most of the levels were designed to be like. The wing buffet knockback skill is essentially the same as what I suggested before with world bosses getting some stack breaker abilities. Then notice how the players had to strike from multiple sides to finally subdue the beast? Even watching that video was more fun than actually fighting many of the current world bosses. I know you guys even the ones trolling me now will get the expansion, play those new fights and think to yourselves, “wow, this actually is a lot better than running then stacking and waiting for an idiot monster to stand in my AoE until it does…”

Didn’t need YT I had a chance to do it. And, within 2 attempts I was meleeing it, running my standard DPS rotation with one slot changed out for heavy CC for breakbar.

So, really, it was nothing special . Wing Buffet you circled (or more over rand through) when the animation started, very long tell. Or if you wre quick to notice/had the boon available, you’d just stability through it.

It was actually a very easy encounter, one that was not a challenge (even the devs said that wasn’t the intention just a more engaging fight than your standard open world content). When you did get knocked back you just flew into the sky and chilled till it was over, jumping right back into the action.

I’d lie if I said it wasn’t somewhat enjoyable, but I’d put it on the same level as say AC Spider Queen, not even close to a Lupi or Grawl Shaman level of interesting.

But you were moving though right? Were you standing the whole time in a corner with your character model somehow phased into the exact same x,y coordinates with the rest of your group the whole time? You’re obviously a pro, so of course it would be slightly easy, but at least I’m sure you were actually playing the game this time and not exploiting the monster’s inability to figure out how to bock out of a corner?

Derenek.8931:

lol, my problem isn’t with dying or not beating the dungeons. I can actually solo a couple of them. My concern is just general gameplay mechanics and the effects they have on newer and more casual players.

I don’t really understand. Are you replying to me with this?

If so I don’t find this post is relevant because I said nothing about you dying or whether or not you know how to beat the dungeons.

Purple Miku.7032:

Derenek.8931:

lol, my problem isn’t with dying or not beating the dungeons. I can actually solo a couple of them. My concern is just general gameplay mechanics and the effects they have on newer and more casual players.

I don’t really understand. Are you replying to me with this?

If so I don’t find this post is relevant because I said nothing about you dying or whether or not you know how to beat the dungeons.

Lol, I thought you were implying that I just didn’t know how to run the dungeons and that was why I was complaining. I don’t really need advice on where to stack or not stack. I just am disheartened by the fact that even after all this time, the creature AI and level design of the dungeons still accommodates the whole, run…bypass all the mobs…stack…wait for boss to blunder into stacked AOE…grab chest…run and bypass all mobs…stack…wait for boss…rinse rub repeat.

I know there are many strategies a group can use to play the dungeon. However, it’s just been the experience of myself and many people I know, that if you want to run dungeon it’s usually a PUG you gotta get. Getting 5 people on at the same time isn’t easy for many people.

And the last poster is entirely correct, a PUG will go the easiest simplest route. It requires the least communication and interpersonal interaction.

The ability to run a dungeon the standard way isn’t a “feature” designed into the dungeon to increase enjoyment. It is rather the unfortunate byproduct of poor AI and level design. I was just hoping to keep the flame alive so Anet doesn’t assume that everyone is totally happy with how things are in the dungeons. Apparently there’s at least a few posts every week about how people are sick of stack and run.

Squeaky wheel gets the grease.

Derenek.8931:

So far in every dungeon I’ve run the strategy is the same. Everyone follows the one guy who knows the map, we find a little corner then stand on top if each other and spam all our skills while standing there.

Then you run past all the mobs and find another corner to stack up in and repeat…

Dude, do you even dungeon? O.o
You’ve just came to the dungeon section of gw2forums, people here actually think about stuff, not just mindlessly execute pug tactics. If you did dungeons properly, you’d knew that there are very very few spots where people rush to a corner to LoS enemies (not to be confused with stacking!), otherwise we just burn everything as it spawns. Unless you wanna waste time of course.
So if you dislike LoSing (which is fine, as long as you have logic – not emotional – reasons for that), make your own LFG party, complain to the pugs and teach them, there is absolutely no need to post here (devs and GMs won’t read it or react to it anyway).

NeoVaris.4806:

Most speedrunning groups don’t actually stack anymore, it just takes pugs several months to catch on, instead they kill bosses on the spot.

Stacking in a corner or on (around, next to, etc.) the boss is still the same in regards to the whole post here.

Derenek.8931:

Jerus.4350:

Derenek.8931:

You see the new fire drake boss battle videos on YouTube? How mobile and action packed those battles were? That’s how I’m pretty sure most of the levels were designed to be like. The wing buffet knockback skill is essentially the same as what I suggested before with world bosses getting some stack breaker abilities. Then notice how the players had to strike from multiple sides to finally subdue the beast? Even watching that video was more fun than actually fighting many of the current world bosses. I know you guys even the ones trolling me now will get the expansion, play those new fights and think to yourselves, “wow, this actually is a lot better than running then stacking and waiting for an idiot monster to stand in my AoE until it does…”

Didn’t need YT I had a chance to do it. And, within 2 attempts I was meleeing it, running my standard DPS rotation with one slot changed out for heavy CC for breakbar.

So, really, it was nothing special . Wing Buffet you circled (or more over rand through) when the animation started, very long tell. Or if you wre quick to notice/had the boon available, you’d just stability through it.

It was actually a very easy encounter, one that was not a challenge (even the devs said that wasn’t the intention just a more engaging fight than your standard open world content). When you did get knocked back you just flew into the sky and chilled till it was over, jumping right back into the action.

I’d lie if I said it wasn’t somewhat enjoyable, but I’d put it on the same level as say AC Spider Queen, not even close to a Lupi or Grawl Shaman level of interesting.

But you were moving though right? Were you standing the whole time in a corner with your character model somehow phased into the exact same x,y coordinates with the rest of your group the whole time? You’re obviously a pro, so of course it would be slightly easy, but at least I’m sure you were actually playing the game this time and not exploiting the monster’s inability to figure out how to bock out of a corner?

Do the same thing in dungeons though

Stacking for the most part is largely useless. People do it out of habit from the old FGS meta when it did have a use.

Granted there can be a few benefits, but it’s really nothing for the vast majority of encounters in dungeons.

Derenek.8931:

I was just hoping to keep the flame alive

You’re just wasting your breath. There is no dungeon team. Who do you expect to “fix” it? Do you even understand the scope of the undertaking required? Everything you said is a really grand case of “easier said than done.” They assigned one of their living world teams to building one new dungeon path, and that took several months presumably. Its success is questionable at best.

Meanwhile, there are bugs that have existed since day one (major blocking issues), and they still aren’t fixed.

Tarasicodissa.7084:

Derenek.8931:

So far in every dungeon I’ve run the strategy is the same. Everyone follows the one guy who knows the map, we find a little corner then stand on top if each other and spam all our skills while standing there.

Then you run past all the mobs and find another corner to stack up in and repeat…

Dude, do you even dungeon? O.o
You’ve just came to the dungeon section of gw2forums, people here actually think about stuff, not just mindlessly execute pug tactics. If you did dungeons properly, you’d knew that there are very very few spots where people rush to a corner to LoS enemies (not to be confused with stacking!), otherwise we just burn everything as it spawns. Unless you wanna waste time of course.
So if you dislike LoSing (which is fine, as long as you have logic – not emotional – reasons for that), make your own LFG party, complain to the pugs and teach them, there is absolutely no need to post here (devs and GMs won’t read it or react to it anyway).

lol, I think I spent half of this entire thread talking about how difficult it is to make a PUG that is willing to play out the mission without resorting to cheese.

And to say that the devs never read or respond to forum posts is simply wrong. It doesn’t happen often, but if nobody says anything it’ll never happen at all.

I just bring a profession I know I can do it right with. IE if I want it done right I’ll bring my Guard/Mez to SE1 so I can just fight right on Nokk and pull the golems together and fight in the middle.

You’re really speaking to the wrong crowd if you’re anti-pug tactics, as most here are as well

This is really the only venue with a chance of the devs actually catching a glimpse and possibly thinking… “Maybe we should do something about this…” and there’s been a pretty lively and in depth discussion with many viewpoints so far. I think it’s been a pretty informative set of threads today.

Derenek.8931:

This is really the only venue with a chance of the devs actually catching a glimpse and possibly thinking… “Maybe we should do something about this…” and there’s been a pretty lively and in depth discussion with many viewpoints so far. I think it’s been a pretty informative set of threads today.

Here’s what they’re working on: (Heart of Thorns features)

Notice how there’s been no feature of New Dungeons! in any of the expansion bullet-points. Notice how when they revamped the dailies, they didn’t bother re-making any sort of dungeon daily. Any development for dungeons is going to be incidental. (Minimal at best) “Very unlikely” for Hard Mode dungeons. (Link)

Nokaru.7831:

Derenek.8931:

This is really the only venue with a chance of the devs actually catching a glimpse and possibly thinking… “Maybe we should do something about this…” and there’s been a pretty lively and in depth discussion with many viewpoints so far. I think it’s been a pretty informative set of threads today.

Here’s what they’re working on: (Heart of Thorns features)

Notice how there’s been no feature of New Dungeons! in any of the expansion bullet-points. Notice how when they revamped the dailies, they didn’t bother re-making any sort of dungeon daily. Any development for dungeons is going to be incidental. (Minimal at best) “Very unlikely” for Hard Mode dungeons. (Link)

Also notice between the launch if GW2 and the expansion was a period of a few years. After the launch of HoT there will likely be another long break during a which they can upgrade the core game mechanics to try and compete with 5th and 6th gen MMO’s…

Just as happened with HW1 with the launch of the expansions, the main game world of Tyria will likely depopulate. Then as time goes by and people grow tired of HoT content, the devs will want to do something to being interest back to the deserted ghost towns of GW2. Hopefully they learned their lesson with Lions arch. Massive destruction of that city and it’s redesign made it interesting for a moment, but now players sit in rats sum or divinity’s reach. So I’m sure they’ll be looking for. New gimmick to keep players from fleeing to whatever the new MMO will be.

Derenek.8931:

But I normally just do that when the group is specifically asking for experienced 80’s with zerkers, then I bring a necro with rabid.

Forgive me if I am wrong but you seem to be implying that you intentionally join groups with specific reqs, knowing you don’t meet those reqs, just to annoy people?

Jerus.4350:

Derenek.8931:

You see the new fire drake boss battle videos on YouTube? How mobile and action packed those battles were? That’s how I’m pretty sure most of the levels were designed to be like. The wing buffet knockback skill is essentially the same as what I suggested before with world bosses getting some stack breaker abilities. Then notice how the players had to strike from multiple sides to finally subdue the beast? Even watching that video was more fun than actually fighting many of the current world bosses. I know you guys even the ones trolling me now will get the expansion, play those new fights and think to yourselves, “wow, this actually is a lot better than running then stacking and waiting for an idiot monster to stand in my AoE until it does…”

Didn’t need YT I had a chance to do it. And, within 2 attempts I was meleeing it, running my standard DPS rotation with one slot changed out for heavy CC for breakbar.

So, really, it was nothing special . Wing Buffet you circled (or more over rand through) when the animation started, very long tell. Or if you wre quick to notice/had the boon available, you’d just stability through it.

Wait, wait, HOLD YOUR HIPPOGRIFFS, he’s talking about the wyvern? I didn’t get it on my first read… That, a dynamic and fun fight?
Ahahahahaha— oh god… pretty clear he didn’t play in the stress test. Even though I presume he could’ve found it hard /cough
So challenging! I was on an account with screwed up keybindings, on rev – a class that I’d been playing for the grand total of 5 mins – and it took me 20 seconds to figure out the mechanics. I think I downed twice on my first time because I couldn’t find the right key to dodge.
So action-packed! I actually had to hit my stability/stunbreak button! I even had to move behind the wyvern for the wing thingy or whatever… and let’s not forget the powerful “spam a cc when you see the bar filling up” mechanic!
It’s not like Tootsie’s in game, huh.
I’d like to see him scrambling in a real meta party, packed with risky tactics that work only if the entire team is on the case.

So action-packed… /chuckles
Oh my, this is golden and will go to the Hall of bookmarks. It shall be famed worldwide.

Forgot to say, I found the perfect example to show when they ask me “what do you mean with phiw?”

Well, to be fair, the Wyvern-fight has been downscaled for the beta. Apparently they didn’t want to challenge the random selection of players too much or whatever.

However, challenging open-world content is the kind of design I believe is doomed by default due to the fact that there are random megaservers holding random players with random builds.

Off-topic though, so on the idea of putting something like that into dungeons:

Derenek.8931:

Hmmm, my problem is that newer and more casual players that I group with and are friends with are turned off by the dungeon mechanics. It causes many to quit the game or just to avoid what I think is beautifully designed artwork and cool monsters. There’s so much awesome work that’s been out into the game by the developers and so much of it is just ignored for the sake of making virtual gold…

I still don’t see why they cannot start groups of their own. For each individual, there are suitable groups and non-suitable groups. It simply boils down to communication: A “speed-clear zerker meta ping gear etc.” requirement is just as legitimate as a “low-level not skipping watching all cutscenes PHIW”. The problem here is not gameplay, but the players who do not honour these requests or just don’t bother to communicate their own preferences.

That you prefer one approach over the other is entirely subjective and asking for a “stacking-stop” is just as much enforcing your view onto others as “berserker/stack or kick” is. Having multiple ways to complete an encounter is what I consider a good thing and it’s up to the individual to pick the one appropriate to their skill-level.

Lastly, about the whole new and casual players being being turned off by dungeon mechanics: Skipping/stacking is actually a very easy way to learn dungeons even as a new player. When I have beginners in my groups, I usually just tell them something along the lines of “stand where I stand, move where I move to” and that way I can quite easily afford to have them along.

However, imagine if the fights were indeed more challenging. Challenging to the degree where you need class/build-synergy, where you need to actually counter specific phases and so on. Imagine that Wyvern-fight you happen to like so much dungeon-style. I don’t know about you, but I would absolutely NOT want new/casual players in my group. As a matter of fact, I would go to great lengths to ensure I get the fully geared veterans (by putting ridiculous requirements on lfg and kick anyone who doesn’t fit right away) and nothing else. Where would that leave the new and casual players then? Well, they will be stuck in their own groups hitting their heads against a brick-wall, not being able to finish the dungeons and then just quitting the dungeons altogether.

serenke.4806:

Stacking in a corner or on (around, next to, etc.) the boss is still the same in regards to the whole post here.

Then how do you expect people to melee a boss? Attacking from an alternate universe with attacks that can penetrate the fabric of the universe?

inb4 melee too much rewarding

rotten.9753:

serenke.4806:

Stacking in a corner or on (around, next to, etc.) the boss is still the same in regards to the whole post here.

Then how do you expect people to melee a boss? Attacking from an alternate universe with attacks that can penetrate the fabric of the universe?

inb4 melee too much rewarding

melee is exployt, nerf plox

…

@OP: All I can gather from this thread is “I don´t like it that people are doing this -> must be removed”. I don´t like unnecessary stacking either (there are still sooo many people that stack in old FGS spots), but you know what I do? I don´t care and just finish the dungeon =P

If you don´t like stacking in general just open up your own “no stacking”-group on the lfg-tool and kick people that don´t fulfill the requirement – simple as that.

Derenek.8931:

I’m glad you were able to make it out from under your bridge to be a Troll here in the forum

Oh I’m the troll here?

Let’s begin dissecting your logic.

Derenek.8931:

So it doesn’t tell you anything that there are hundreds if posts by different people all complaining about the same thing?

So it doesn’t tell you anything that there are hundreds of posts by different people all complaining about those people that want “stack to end”? That maybe, just maybe it isn’t as linear as you think and there are two groups of people here?

Derenek.8931:

You can’t say that people are happy with the dungeon design if so many people vehemently write so many posts against it.

People cry all the time about every single subject you could ever imagine. It’s been cried about here in our very own dungeon forum.

Your suggestions are overcomplex and achieve truly nothing at the end except extra annoying some players. And considering Anet’s lack of devoted resources to the dungeon scene, it ain’t happening.

It’s been suggested right here on this subforum boss designs and overall mob designs far better and enthusiastic alternatives than yours, with great support from the whole community and they haven’t taken action about it. Regina Buenaobra posted about a year ago asking for feedback on several dungeons. It was all just a wet tissue to try to cool people off from being ignored so much. Never heard back ever since. Probably will come back asking the same question after a year to give us “something to do” and keep us busy so we don’t leak to the other subforums and ruin the positive vibes of the Living Story hippies.

Derenek.8931:

Yeah. Perhaps introduce difficulty settings.

This is where I would agree with you, if Anet hadn’t outright said that there will be no Hard Mode for GW2, in a not-so-long ago interview.

People generally don’t stack in open world. Monsters tend to be much more mobile and have large patrol routes. The maps are usually more open so the stacking mechanic just isn’t useful.

I don’t think you even know what you are complaining about. You’re complaining about LOS’ing and not Stacking.

You seem to believe your suggestions are the solution to what you seem to believe that is a problem. For example: You want to make mobs dodge out or move out of AOES. Do you realise what that would accomplish? Mobs in an never ending boomerang loop between AoEs, spending more time running from them than actually fighting heads-on with players. That’s not a frightening enemy, that’s a chicken.

Derenek.8931:

They got a thousand gold already, it’s not like they need to run a dungeon in five minutes.
But I normally just do that when the group is specifically asking for experienced 80’s with zerkers, then I bring a necro with rabid.

Yeah but I’m the troll here! You go out of your way to antagonize zerkers, whose only fault is trying to play how they want, with alike players who share their mindset.

Derenek.8931:

All the while GW2 is shedding player base to inferior games like Elder Scrolls Online, FFXIV, and others of their ilk.

Yeah because dungeons are clearly the only reason why GW2 is losing some playerbase to some other games. Not because the staleness of content, the shallowness of Living Story and new areas devoid of any challenge whatsoever, to be farmed as a zerg while taking a cup of tea. Maybe, just maybe, the population migration should be about Anet’s game focus and not because of some dungeons that are untouched since Launch.

Derenek.8931:

You see the new fire drake boss battle videos on YouTube? How mobile and action packed those battles were? That’s how I’m pretty sure most of the levels were designed to be like. The wing buffet knockback skill is essentially the same as what I suggested before with world bosses getting some stack breaker abilities.

And here I am met with the reason for your post. You are not yet experienced in GW2 combat. You dont understand what makes people “stack”. If there’s a big boss and 3 guys are meleeing him, how in the world weren’t they going to stack huh? Perhaps they should take turns as a big festive rodeo of hitting the piñata one by one?

Do you realise that the wing buffet knockback skill is still going to allow people to stack? Haven’t you seen players stacking melee there and using AoE stability skills from Guardians and Revenants to allow players to keep on meleeing together as a tight group?

Maybe you should review your core understanding of the game. And do not repply to this comment if you cannot debate every single point I’ve made.

With love,

“Forum Troll”

Skoigoth.9238:

rotten.9753:

serenke.4806:

Stacking in a corner or on (around, next to, etc.) the boss is still the same in regards to the whole post here.

Then how do you expect people to melee a boss? Attacking from an alternate universe with attacks that can penetrate the fabric of the universe?

inb4 melee too much rewarding

melee is exployt, nerf plox

…

@OP: All I can gather from this thread is “I don´t like it that people are doing this -> must be removed”. I don´t like unnecessary stacking either (there are still sooo many people that stack in old FGS spots), but you know what I do? I don´t care and just finish the dungeon =P

If you don´t like stacking in general just open up your own “no stacking”-group on the lfg-tool and kick people that don´t fulfill the requirement – simple as that.

I never said i don’t like it or that they should stop it. Just saying that stacking merely means that your whole team is standing in roughly the same spot. Be it in a corner or in the open.

serenke.4806:

Skoigoth.9238:

rotten.9753:

serenke.4806:

Stacking in a corner or on (around, next to, etc.) the boss is still the same in regards to the whole post here.

Then how do you expect people to melee a boss? Attacking from an alternate universe with attacks that can penetrate the fabric of the universe?

inb4 melee too much rewarding

melee is exployt, nerf plox

…

@OP: All I can gather from this thread is “I don´t like it that people are doing this -> must be removed”. I don´t like unnecessary stacking either (there are still sooo many people that stack in old FGS spots), but you know what I do? I don´t care and just finish the dungeon =P

If you don´t like stacking in general just open up your own “no stacking”-group on the lfg-tool and kick people that don´t fulfill the requirement – simple as that.

I never said i don’t like it or that they should stop it. Just saying that stacking merely means that your whole team is standing in roughly the same spot. Be it in a corner or in the open.

plz tell me how 5 players fighting boss in melee range can’t stand next to each other?

Zania.8461:

More specific considerations re: constructive suggestions
1) AI is an issue across the board. Having monsters dodge from AE would be nifty, but it is likely going to cause more issues than solve

Any change/improvement to AI would introduce new problems that would need to be tackled. That is not an argument for not improving the AI.

Zania.8461:

2) Collision eats resources. This will require a lot more data to be processed (to see if the positions overlap), which is taxing. Furthermore this can be used for griefing and/or exploiting.

This is an assumption, and not based on facts. This would in fact not cause a dramatic decrease in performance, and would not be taxing at all.

However, if players block each other, that would cause some opportunities for griefing. If the players only block enemies however, but not each other, this issue would be solved.

Zania.8461:

3) Then there will be a simple calculation – is the clearing of the dungeon worth the final reward? Yes – people will speed clear, and nothing will change. No – you lose about 50% (if not more) dungeon population, and get a fallout on boards.

That is really no argument at all.

Zania.8461:

4) Once again, this will simply have people ask whether complete clearing of trash is worth it on reward per unit time basis. If no, people will keep speed running. If yes, people will stack pull almost all trash and AE it down.

This depends entirely on the solution that Anet comes up with. I disagree that these are the only possible outcomes.

Zania.8461:

Bottom line – Does stacking and skipping NEED a fix? If so, is it worth risking applying a fix that might break more things that it will fix in a game mode support for which has been largely discontinued? I don’t believe ANet cares enough about dungeons to do something like this.

This is not really a case of implementing a fix. It’s a case of completely redesigning dungeons. But no, it doesn’t seem like Anet cares. They look at statistics, not at the community.

My own thoughts on all this? Stacking is the result of the dominance of boon spamming and DPS in the game. The game rewards stacking, so if you want to stop that, give the players a reason not to stack. Reduces the effectiveness of boon spamming, and give enemies means of dealing with a clutter of players (aoe attacks, control skills). Better ai, along with more strategy to the dungeons, would improve the combat overall. The game is currently too simplified and forgiving. It doesn’t make any demands for strategy, and so the players can just blast through it with the cheapest of tactics. The game needs to mature, and the game designers need to get their act together, in order to fix this.

Stacking is not a problem. It is a symptom of bad game design.

People stack because bosses and other enemies are really weak in many dungeons.

Derenek.8931:

So it doesn’t tell you anything that there are hundreds if posts by different people all complaining about the same thing?

Doesn’t it tell you anything when there are thousands of responses to those hundreds of posts telling them that they are wrong? Or does volume only matter when it services your position?

Derenek.8931:

[i]Maybe you and these dozens of friends could play together? No one is forcing you to join our groups and play our way. So why do you insist on having the game changed so we have to play your way? Not that I doubt you know people, but a meta is created and maintained by the majority. It isn’t a meta unless it is accepted by the majority.

Make your own group? It works… really it does. [\i]

I take it you are one of the types who would vote to kick a player for not being able to keep up with your elite dungeon running knowledge… There’s no reason for hostility. The truth if the matter is that putting up a LFG for a group that actually wants to play the game doesn’t work. So I can already guess your response.

“Well then, you and your friends shouldn’t play dungeons. They are perfectly fine the way they are.”

I keep replying to you this morning, but it’s hard not to. His post wasn’t hostile — yours was. You even put in your post that the hostility was the result of a fantasized dialogue that only exists in your head and in your posts.

When players surround an enemy instead of stacking on top of each other, they effectively negate cleave damage and/or save active defenses while still in range of most AoE boon sources.
In this sense, there’s no need to introduce gimmicky mechanics to prevent stacking. A dangerous enough enemy would achieve it naturally.

Same goes for skipping.
The whole event chain leading to dungeon completion is on designers hands. So is the reward for any side event or optional bossfight.
If designers do not what some encounter to be skipped, it won’t be skipped.

Among all the mechanics and strategies that are usually pointed out as negative, only LoS is a truly problematic one. There’s not much a desginer can do if, for whatever reason, doesn’t want LoS to be a thing,
Rooting enemies in place or playing around extremely reduced leash ranges will often come with unintended drawbacks. Enclosing players in some perfectly clean battleground might feel extremely anticlimatic and would get old fast if abused.
Enemy group positioning is definitely something that could use some AI improvements.

Perhaps you could clarify what you mean by “stacking,” because it sounds like you really just have a problem with glass cannons in melee range that know how to dodge/blind/block/etc.

As others have said, if you’re doing higher-end PvE (e.g. Arah, FotM 50) and you’re just blindly spamming skills in a corner, you’re getting carried. Someone on your team is blinding the enemies, providing aegis, or interrupting the heavy hitters. If a zerk party is just standing in a corner and spamming skills in those situations, they will wipe.

Wethospu.6437:

People stack because bosses and other enemies are really weak in many dungeons.

I think this is a simplification of the issue. Yes, they are weak, so players can stand in one spot and spam their skills, but:

-Cleaving effectiveness is also maximized if the enemies are close together. This is related to the next point.
-Aggro control is almost none existent. To keep the enemies in one place, the players stay in one place.
-Boon spamming dominates the game, and for that you want players to stay close together.
-The foes themselves make no effort to break up a pile of players.
-The foes do not run out of aoe effects.

serenke.4806:

Skoigoth.9238:

melee is exployt, nerf plox

…

@OP: All I can gather from this thread is “I don´t like it that people are doing this -> must be removed”. I don´t like unnecessary stacking either (there are still sooo many people that stack in old FGS spots), but you know what I do? I don´t care and just finish the dungeon =P

If you don´t like stacking in general just open up your own “no stacking”-group on the lfg-tool and kick people that don´t fulfill the requirement – simple as that.

I never said i don’t like it or that they should stop it. Just saying that stacking merely means that your whole team is standing in roughly the same spot. Be it in a corner or in the open.

Everything after “@OP: …” was directed at the person that opened this topic and that is not you I believe

The thread got pretty active while I was asleep. :-)

People are pretty passionate about wanting things to stay exactly as they are.

The best responses are the ones that say things are “impossible”
Or that enhanced AI causes problems.

Im still pretty firmly in the camp that says:
GW2 dungeons could use some serious updates.

Apparently many on this forum don’t agree. Although Im starting to sense that
Many of the arguments being made against me are simply, “Stop talking, I like the dungeons the way they are, and you have no right to make suggestions or gripe.”

Then they follow up with, “Go in with your own group and get the heck off this forum!”

Honestly guys, that is a bit on the extreme fanboy side. The game isnt perfect, and if you get offended by people making suggestions or asking for changes… Its pretty clear why the devs dont bother taking suggestions with a forum that acts this way.

This isn’t a political race, trying to demonize your opponents won’t help your points gain any more favor.

Jerus.4350:

This isn’t a political race, trying to demonize your opponents won’t help your points gain any more favor.

But by saying the wyrm fight is serious business, he is gaining points with Anet! Challenging encounters here we come!