Guild Wars 2

Thaddeus.4891:

Exactly. I think you blame the wrong thing.

I think he also confuse walling with stacking. Walling improve some AoE damage, stacking doesn’t.

You can stack while walling, but you don’t need to.

Honestly all those behaviors are symptoms of a larger problem. The dungeon level design is glitchy enough that people actually can trap monsters against walls, under rocks, one floor above or below… Etc…

Clearer and more robust path finding programming, along with less glitchy level designs would prevent a lot of that stuff from happening. When it comes to “is it really a valid strategy or not? Is it truly fair and in the spirit of gaming?”

Just answer these question: “If that monster was real, would it keep running face first into that wall trying to get me? And if our party was really here, could five of us fit in that time 2×3 box?”

Derenek.8931:

Well it ensure all the AoE circles have the same central point and outward radius. That causes maximum damage output in the smallest area.

Not really. AoE is generally targeted. Plus it does the same amount of damage on the outside of the circle as the inside of the circle. Plus the outward radius is different per AoE. And there are traits that increase the size of the AoE, so none of the AoEs are really static in size. Overlapping or concentrated AoE can actually cause problems with blast finishers. There is a priority as to what gets blasted first in over lapping circles.

However it is true that you want to focus your AoE on where the target is, or going to be, but other than that, it doesn’t really matter where they are, as long as it’s on target.

Derenek.8931:

The entire act of merging bodies Into one cohesive entity. Being close by each other is one thing, but actually being inside each other is taking things to the extreme when it comes to min/maxing AoE damage

Actually often times it will prove detrimental to do what you’er talking about. I can only think of one case where it is a positive and that’s CoE’s Subject Alpha path1/3 where if you’re directly inside him you can avoid being hit by the Mordremoth’s Teeth attack.

More often though you’ll find enemies that use projectiles. With these enemies being stacked in tight like that can cause reflects/projectile destruction tools to fail as you’re being hit before they can be reflected/destroyed.

A good example is Alphard in Arah2, typical idea there is you pull her behind something such that when she teleports back to spin you’re defended byt hat something (they even put barrels of hay in the area specifically for this, I say that with certainty as they are slowly destroyed as the fight goes on with an hp bar, pretty confident in it’s intention). So inherently you will be LoSing her when she comes running to you just by the nature of the design. This is something a lot of new players screw up though. They pull her around the corner, and just start blasting away tossing up their reflects and then wondering why they’re still hit by the attacks. Well the reason is what I said above. So the proper tactic is you do all of it the same, bu when she comes around the corner you take a small step back to get out of her hitbox, essentially unstacking.

As for players stacking being beneficial for something, well I guess there is the potential to body block projectiles, but I do that on fights by standing at max melee when my teammate stands closer it works far more consistently.

Stacking doesn’t have nearly the amount of magical qualities many players think they do. Staying close together does allow for better use of fields, especially blinds. It allows better boon sharing, notably from blasts. It also allows for better control of enemies not having it ping pong back and forth between two ranged targets. And lastely it allows better use of Reflects. But none of this requires literally stacking on top of each other. Typically on Ascalon Fractal we’ll all LoS, sometimes stacking in tight spots is required, but as soon as they are pulled together, we spraed out and find max melee for the best safety, sticking right on top of eachother is actually bad

I can’t help but think you need to look into the details of the game a little more.

Derenek.8931:

Thaddeus.4891:

Exactly. I think you blame the wrong thing.

I think he also confuse walling with stacking. Walling improve some AoE damage, stacking doesn’t.

You can stack while walling, but you don’t need to.

Honestly all those behaviors are symptoms of a larger problem. The dungeon level design is glitchy enough that people actually can trap monsters against walls, under rocks, one floor above or below… Etc…

Clearer and more robust path finding programming, along with less glitchy level designs would prevent a lot of that stuff from happening. When it comes to “is it really a valid strategy or not? Is it truly fair and in the spirit of gaming?”

Just answer these question: “If that monster was real, would it keep running face first into that wall trying to get me? And if our party was really here, could five of us for in that time 2×3 box?”

I agree totally with the glitch thing. But you don’t seem to talk about glitch. You seem to talk about Walling, LOSing and Stacking in general. You seem to don’t like that even when we don’t glitch mobs. (Which seriously happen not that often).

I’ll answer your questions. It that monster was real, not it would not face first into the wall trying to get me. And you know what. Most of the dungeon community would prefer monster that don’t act like that. We prefer fight like lupi (with no walling), mai trin and liadri and we want more of that and less AC easy fight.

No we couldn’t fit all in a small box. And again, good dungeon runner almost never do that. It’s pug that want an easy, but no optimal strategy that do that. (with some specific exception).

Jerus.4350:

I can only think of one case where it is a positive and that’s CoE’s Subject Alpha path1/3 where if you’re directly inside him you can avoid being hit by the Mordremoth’s Teeth attack.

Stacking inside does not prevent the hit. In fact it’s the exact opposite. Pulling him to a corner and everyone stacking inside guarantees everyone to eat the dmg.

Derenek.8931:

spoj.9672:

What im seeing in this thread is Derenek wrongly referring to safespotting as stacking. Stacking can happen anywhere including in the open. Theres nothing exploity about it. In some situations it can cause a group to wipe.

Abusing AI by using specific spots is not stacking. Thats a safespot. But obviously stacking is a symptom because a safespot is only a small area and you cant spread a team out in a safespot.

Hopefully that clears up the misunderstanding.

ps. How is multiple people using AOE on the same location glitchy? I cannot comprehend how you can come to that conclusion. And this is completely unrelated to people stacking anyway seeing as most AOE’s are ranged ground targeted lol.

Probably because I’m in the programming camp that believes that good virtual world design is as realistic as possible. Not everyone agrees with that, I can dig it. So when I see people taking advantage of physical behaviors that are caused by imperfections in the virtual world (imperfections referring to areas in which realism isn’t really holding up well) I see it as glitchy

And we could agree with you on that if players would actually get a significant benefit from stacking on top each other (without safespoting, that’s a completely different topic).
Stacking not only doesn’t provide any benefit in dungeons (unlike open world, where you can exploit the skill target cap) but it’s actually a detrimental approach. It’s just the natural outcome of several players trying to melee a boss which is easy enough to not worry about positioning.

frifoxy.6014:

Stacking inside does not prevent the hit. In fact it’s the exact opposite. Pulling him to a corner and everyone stacking inside guarantees everyone to eat the dmg.

I remember the days when 100% of all pugs couldn’t dodge the AoE, and they just ranged Subject Alpha to death over 15 minutes.

frifoxy.6014:

Jerus.4350:

I can only think of one case where it is a positive and that’s CoE’s Subject Alpha path1/3 where if you’re directly inside him you can avoid being hit by the Mordremoth’s Teeth attack.

Stacking inside does not prevent the hit. In fact it’s the exact opposite. Pulling him to a corner and everyone stacking inside guarantees everyone to eat the dmg.

Well I won’t even try to say I don’t fully understand how it works, just know I’ve seen you pull it off mr COE master I know it involved LoSing him in that first room and then yeah, not sure what after that, and guess details would be against forum regulations? Whatever, so my one example of where it held true isn’t right either!

CoE corner stacking for Subject alpha is more about the dodge. For pugs, it’s easier to dodge in the corner and not all over the place. That way you can revive someone and it give an additional dodge for Staff Ele and GS Warrior.

Give every boss meteor shower and nerf icebow problem solved.

EcoRI.9273:

Give every boss meteor shower and nerf icebow problem solved.

You mean like General Molradovich in SE path 3? Yup nobody melee him

Thaddeus.4891:

EcoRI.9273:

Give every boss meteor shower and nerf icebow problem solved.

You mean like General Molradovich in SE path 3? Yup nobody melee him

ok fine give every boss zerker armor and meteor shower and nerf icebow.

EcoRI.9273:

Thaddeus.4891:

EcoRI.9273:

Give every boss meteor shower and nerf icebow problem solved.

You mean like General Molradovich in SE path 3? Yup nobody melee him

ok fine give every boss zerker armor and meteor shower and nerf icebow.

They will already nerf icebow. For the other thing, Hammer Guardian new meta

Thaddeus.4891:

EcoRI.9273:

Thaddeus.4891:

EcoRI.9273:

Give every boss meteor shower and nerf icebow problem solved.

You mean like General Molradovich in SE path 3? Yup nobody melee him

ok fine give every boss zerker armor and meteor shower and nerf icebow.

They will already nerf icebow. For the other thing, Hammer Guardian new meta

ok fine remove every single wall in future dungeons and just have a giant open field, LOS stacking solved.

EcoRI.9273:

Thaddeus.4891:

EcoRI.9273:

Thaddeus.4891:

EcoRI.9273:

Give every boss meteor shower and nerf icebow problem solved.

You mean like General Molradovich in SE path 3? Yup nobody melee him

ok fine give every boss zerker armor and meteor shower and nerf icebow.

They will already nerf icebow. For the other thing, Hammer Guardian new meta

ok fine remove every single wall in future dungeons and just have a giant open field, LOS stacking solved.

Immersion restored to dungeons!

Jerus.4350:

EcoRI.9273:

Thaddeus.4891:

EcoRI.9273:

Thaddeus.4891:

EcoRI.9273:

Give every boss meteor shower and nerf icebow problem solved.

You mean like General Molradovich in SE path 3? Yup nobody melee him

ok fine give every boss zerker armor and meteor shower and nerf icebow.

They will already nerf icebow. For the other thing, Hammer Guardian new meta

ok fine remove every single wall in future dungeons and just have a giant open field, LOS stacking solved.

Immersion restored to dungeons!

Well obviously ! How can walls be real if our eyes aren’t real? Food for thought.

My immersion shall never again be oppressed by the tyranny of those walls.

Jerus.4350:

Well I won’t even try to say I don’t fully understand how it works, just know I’ve seen you pull it off mr COE master I know it involved LoSing him in that first room and then yeah, not sure what after that, and guess details would be against forum regulations? Whatever, so my one example of where it held true isn’t right either!

Haha that 1st room is a special case where you cause Alpha’s teeth to walk the wall and miss you. It’s nearly impossible to recreate that in the rest of the dungeon.

Once stacking is gone

I think it is difficult to find a party which take 30mins or 60mins for 1g path only.

serenke.4806:

Skoigoth.9238:

rotten.9753:

serenke.4806:

Stacking in a corner or on (around, next to, etc.) the boss is still the same in regards to the whole post here.

Then how do you expect people to melee a boss? Attacking from an alternate universe with attacks that can penetrate the fabric of the universe?

inb4 melee too much rewarding

melee is exployt, nerf plox

…

@OP: All I can gather from this thread is “I don´t like it that people are doing this -> must be removed”. I don´t like unnecessary stacking either (there are still sooo many people that stack in old FGS spots), but you know what I do? I don´t care and just finish the dungeon =P

If you don´t like stacking in general just open up your own “no stacking”-group on the lfg-tool and kick people that don´t fulfill the requirement – simple as that.

I never said i don’t like it or that they should stop it. Just saying that stacking merely means that your whole team is standing in roughly the same spot. Be it in a corner or in the open.

They should increase boon gain range to 2k units!

O.o that was alot of reading to catch up on this thread.

If we are using other games as example I would say
" stacking " is the same as " spaming " in fighting games.

People make personal anti house rules against these things and then call cheat on those who continue to do it :/

frifoxy.6014:

Jerus.4350:

Well I won’t even try to say I don’t fully understand how it works, just know I’ve seen you pull it off mr COE master I know it involved LoSing him in that first room and then yeah, not sure what after that, and guess details would be against forum regulations? Whatever, so my one example of where it held true isn’t right either!

Haha that 1st room is a special case where you cause Alpha’s teeth to walk the wall and miss you. It’s nearly impossible to recreate that in the rest of the dungeon.

Again, bow to the master, but cool, glad to know, I was trying to think of a situation where you could exploit through stacking inside the hitbox and that’s the only thing that came to mind. As I always tell my buddies, I’m a wealth of knowledge but my application is quite lacking Glad to know the details.

Sarahfull.4930:

O.o that was alot of reading to catch up on this thread.

If we are using other games as example I would say
" stacking " is the same as " spaming " in fighting games.

People make personal anti house rules against these things and then call cheat on those who continue to do it :/

So very well put.

I actually don’t see PUG tactics as bad, they’re tactics that allow less than perfect players to complete stuff, but it’s not the best way to do it by far. I think that analogy was perfect though, one of my brothers was the master of spam in fighting games, the other was just a true master, personally I learned both their styles and learned how to beat them. I showed them what’s what in Tekken by learning the moves and finding ways to best their moves. The one bother who spammed was easy, Just an upper kick with yoshimitsu to knock him down, when he stood up, IIRC it was square back back to perform the 3/4 kill shot stab, basically he had no chance. The other brother was a bit tougher, he’d roll back and stand up because he was good, but, ther was “harikari” which would do like 3/4 damage to him but only 1/2 to me, so I’d let him get close pull that off and boom, game over. Both had their tactics, but as a student of games I was able to best them both

I have no doubt GW2 would be the same, increase the AI, make a bunch of changes and you’d still have people “in the know” able to demolish anything in their path.

Ok this has been a good afternoon read. Honestly I see these threads all the time. Would you like my thief to not be able to stealth as well? becuase the op seems to possibly want full clear of dungeons. One giant octagon with nothing in the middle and endless mobs come at you. till boss spawns is what I am getting from this ops post. Because a dungeon will always have walls lol. Make your own LFG and post no stacking.

Man I can only imagine if no stacking full clear people get there way, would people still do dungeons if it took hours to get 1 gold. silverwaste, drytop and every southsun would be jam packed with players. Dungeons empty just like fractals barely anyone plays because the rewards are not that great

The thing is, if these people really want to kill every single mob in their path, while being scattered across the room, they are 100% free to do so. Nobody will stop them =P

All they need to do is list their party as “pX – full clear – no stacking” on the lfg-tool and enforce said requirements by kicking people that don´t fulfill them. That is really all they need to do.

So I personally don´t get at all why there is a need to come here and suggest ridiculous and absolutely tedious stuff (sry OP) like this:

2. Turn on collision for player characters so they can’t stand in the exact same spot as another character.
3. Place doors in the dungeons that require keys to open. The keys are dropped by random mobs in the dungeon. This way encounters can’t always be bypassed and players actually will have to play the dungeon and fight some monsters in order to progress further.

Just try to play the game how you want and find like-minded people to do so. Don´t try to force your preferences onto a different/broader audience, m´kay? Entitlement mentality is bad, m´kay?

Rising Dusk.2408:

You have yet to present any cogent argument that clearly shows that skipping or stacking is “bad game design”. The only subjectively-bad game design here is in how easy so many encounters are and how that enables success with simple tactics.

It clearly was NOT the intention of the designers, that the players would dash past every mob possible, exploit flaws in the ai to get monsters stuck in corners and in walls, and exploit spots where the monsters can’t get to them, yet the players can safely kill them. It was clearly NOT the intention of the designers that people were constantly kicked from groups for not skipping all the content fast enough. The game was intended to encourage players to work together, and not exclude one another. But that is not what happened, and the game designers are responsible for that mess.

Skoigoth.9238:

The thing is, if these people really want to kill every single mob in their path, while being scattered across the room, they are 100% free to do so. Nobody will stop them =P

All they need to do is list their party as “pX – full clear – no stacking” on the lfg-tool and enforce said requirements by kicking people that don´t fulfill them. That is really all they need to do.

Yeah, that argument is rubbish, and you know it. What the game designers need to do, is create dungeons that don’t encourage this sort of behavior. Plenty of other MMO’s are perfectly capable of doing that. So why make excuses, and try to put the blame with the players?

Game designers are responsible for the behavior of players in their game. It is their job to create an environment that encourages the intended playing behavior. When that fails, and players not do what they intended, the designer is at fault. I think it would be hard to find any competent game designer that would put the blame on the players instead.

Skoigoth.9238:

So I personally don´t get at all why there is a need to come here and suggest ridiculous and absolutely tedious stuff (sry OP) like this:

He is trying to present a solution to a complex problem. We may not agree on his solution, but the problem is real.

Skoigoth.9238:

Just try to play the game how you want and find like-minded people to do so. Don´t try to force your preferences onto a different/broader audience, m´kay? Entitlement mentality is bad, m´kay?

-He said with a smug tone, dismissing any suggestion that the current dungeons are a horrible mess that were rushed with the game to meet an early release date.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

People have always skipped trash in mmos where possible.

Exploiting and stacking are two different things.

This game, like all mmos is designed to encourage people who WANT to work together to work with each other. Strangely enough, that is exactly what is happening in zerk/meta groups, like minded people with the same goals grouping together.

New, challenging content and tweaks to the likes of condi is what the game needs. Not wholesale changes and enforced trash clear outs or the other nonsense proposed in order to punish the mean old zerker bullies.

Oh and the developers are partly responsible for a players behavior, not fully.

fracture.9754:

Remove everything, nerf everything, please no more fun in my videogames! All I want is to take nice, relaxing 6 hours every day to finish one path per dungeon.

Way to go in not presenting any solution, nor acknowledging any problems. Just stick your head in the sand, poke fun at a poster for pointing out a problem, and then pretend the problem does not exist. Lets go back to that earlier example shall we? Lets not ignore the problem:

One person is somehow able to type and run at the same time (macro maybe?) we’re bypassing these mobs and going to the boss!

At which point the new ranger while attempting to run and type at the same time meets a sticky end.

He lies dead only meters away from the starting point.

Then suddenly without even offering any assistance, a message window pops up asking to kick the now dead ranger.

I then hit the do not kick button and try to ask that we collect up and fight our way back to him. He’s new.

Two members just quit the group, apparently they don’t have time to help teammates.

(So ends the beginning of the Saturday night debacle)

^^^ THIS is a problem that needs to be solved. This is not how the game was intended. We’ve all seen this happen, and a player not reading the LFG correctly is really not the real issue here. Untill you acknowledge that this is not just a player problem, but a design problem, you are not going to improve the dungeon environment.

Fenrir.3609:

This game, like all mmos is designed to encourage people who WANT to work together to work with each other. Strangely enough, that is exactly what is happening in zerk/meta groups, like minded people with the same goals grouping together.

That would be fine, if it didn’t lead to a toxic environment where players who want to play the dungeons normally, are kicked from the group. And to be fair, speed clearing was already a thing in GW1 (and I wasn’t a fan of it then either). skipping one or two mobs is fine, and probably intended. But skipping everything, and cheesing encounters… probably not. But it seems many posters are very willing to pretend that this is intended design, when it is clear that just not a whole lot of design went into the dungeons, and this was an unintended side effect.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

fracture.9754:

Remove everything, nerf everything, please no more fun in my videogames! All I want is to take nice, relaxing 6 hours every day to finish one path per dungeon.

Way to go in not presenting any solution, nor acknowledging any problems. Just stick your head in the sand, poke fun at a poster for pointing out a problem, and then pretend the problem does not exist. Lets go back to that earlier example shall we? Lets not ignore the problem:

One person is somehow able to type and run at the same time (macro maybe?) we’re bypassing these mobs and going to the boss!

At which point the new ranger while attempting to run and type at the same time meets a sticky end.

He lies dead only meters away from the starting point.

Then suddenly without even offering any assistance, a message window pops up asking to kick the now dead ranger.

I then hit the do not kick button and try to ask that we collect up and fight our way back to him. He’s new.

Two members just quit the group, apparently they don’t have time to help teammates.

(So ends the beginning of the Saturday night debacle)

^^^ THIS is a problem that needs to be solved. This is not how the game was intended. We’ve all seen this happen, and a player not reading the LFG correctly is really not the real issue here. Untill you acknowledge that this is not just a player problem, but a design problem, you are not going to improve the dungeon environment.

Please send me a link where one of the devs explains “How the game was intended to be played”. Really curious about this one.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Skoigoth.9238:

The thing is, if these people really want to kill every single mob in their path, while being scattered across the room, they are 100% free to do so. Nobody will stop them =P

All they need to do is list their party as “pX – full clear – no stacking” on the lfg-tool and enforce said requirements by kicking people that don´t fulfill them. That is really all they need to do.

Yeah, that argument is rubbish, and you know it. What the game designers need to do, is create dungeons that don’t encourage this sort of behavior. Plenty of other MMO’s are perfectly capable of doing that. So why make excuses, and try to put the blame with the players?

Game designers are responsible for the behavior of players in their game. It is their job to create an environment that encourages the intended playing behavior. When that fails, and players not do what they intended, the designer is at fault. I think it would be hard to find any competent game designer that would put the blame on the players instead.

That´s your opinion (and it´s totally OK for you to have it, no question), but nothing more
The design choices the devs made when originally creating dungeons allow us to do things such as LoSing and skipping mobs, so as far as I´m concerned those are legitimate strategies to complete said content. Exploits such as “save-spotting” and so forth are a totally different story of course and should always be fixed asap (looking at you Lupi-wall-cheesers).
And why do you think my argument is rubbish? It is fact that nobody in this game is forced to use these strategies. Everybody has the freedom to create their own parties, with their own set of rules and the possibility to enforce those rules.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Skoigoth.9238:

So I personally don´t get at all why there is a need to come here and suggest ridiculous and absolutely tedious stuff (sry OP) like this:

He is trying to present a solution to a complex problem. We may not agree on his solution, but the problem is real.

And it is my opinion that the “solutions” he presented are pretty stupid (note the “I personally” in my post).

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Skoigoth.9238:

Just try to play the game how you want and find like-minded people to do so. Don´t try to force your preferences onto a different/broader audience, m´kay? Entitlement mentality is bad, m´kay?

-He said with a smug tone, dismissing any suggestion that the current dungeons are a horrible mess that were rushed with the game to meet an early release date.

No need to be salty =P I´m not dismissing every suggestion ever made on this forum, just two of those the OP of this thread suggested, because I think they a) wouldn´t solve anything or b) would break some stuff completely (imagine e.g. cliffside fractal with player collision, hf walking across those planks).

fracture.9754:

The only problem here is the group you do dungeons with, that’s all. Are you asking Anet to help you find “better” friends?

Here, have a fruit basket. For being one in many posters to completely miss his point.

He is not having trouble finding a group. He has a problem with OTHER people being kicked from groups, because they aren’t running fast enough. It has made doing dungeons toxic and unpleasant, and I totally agree with him.

I can run dungeons just fine, but when I see that VOTE KICK pop up because someone died, I get angry. I vote no, and then await the inevitable players that leave the group. That is what playing dungeons is often like. I hate it. It’s not the player’s fault though, it’s the design of the dungeons.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

That would be fine, if it didn’t lead to a toxic environment where players who want to play the dungeons normally, are kicked from the group.

I would suggest the “toxic environment” is caused by people not reading or otherwise ignoring a groups reqs, joining regardless and then moaning about it when they get booted. Or by people going out of their way to p$$s of groups who just want to play with like minded players.

It is caused by the same individuals constantly spamming up the forums with threads containing the same old anti meta crud, badly hidden under the guise of “game improvement”.

Skoigoth.9238:

That´s your opinion (and it´s totally OK for you to have it, no question), but nothing more

Why thank you. I tend to feel rather strongly about it, because game design is my job as well. It’s a topic close to my heart. I can’t stand it when people let a game designer off the hook so easily. If players were playing the game wrong in one of my games, I would feel completely at fault for it.

Skoigoth.9238:

And why do you think my argument is rubbish? It is fact that nobody in this game is forced to use these strategies. Everybody has the freedom to create their own parties, with their own set of rules and the possibility to enforce those rules.

Yes, but ultimately it’s the game designers that design what is possible. They design what is the most profitable, fun, and easiest way of completing a dungeon. So it just bothers me when people say “then just play it your way”. That’s missing the point. A dungeon should encourage players to be played the way the designers intended it to be played.

Skoigoth.9238:

And it is my opinion that the “solutions” he presented are pretty stupid (note the “I personally” in my post).

I would say, misinformed. The intention is there, but I do not agree with the solution he presents.

Skoigoth.9238:

No need to be salty =P I´m not dismissing every suggestion ever made on this forum, just two of those the OP of this thread suggested, because I think they a) wouldn´t solve anything or b) would break some stuff completely (imagine e.g. cliffside fractal with player collision, hf walking across those planks).

I don’t think player collision is the answer either. But I recognize the problem he points out. I think he just oversimplifies the issue. It is really a very complicated problem, hinging on many other problems.

fracture.9754:

I don’t get it, you can’t vote no, you can only vote yes. How do you vote no?

By not voting? Seems obvious to me.

Fenrir.3609:

I would suggest the “toxic environment” is caused by people not reading or otherwise ignoring a groups reqs, joining regardless and then moaning about it when they get booted. Or by people going out of their way to p$$s of groups who just want to play with like minded players.

It is caused by the same individuals constantly spamming up the forums with threads containing the same old anti meta crud, badly hidden under the guise of “game improvement”.

When you take that position, you distance yourself entirely from the idea that game designers are ultimately responsible for the player behavior that they help create. It is a position that I couldn’t possibly disagree with more.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

When you take that position, you distance yourself entirely from the idea that game designers are ultimately responsible for the player behavior that they help create. It is a position that I couldn’t possibly disagree with more.

That is a bit of a strange answer in all honesty. The points I raised are primarily down the the players themselves.

Game designers are partly responsible for how a player behaves in a game, the key point being the"partly".

Trying to absolve the blame for the “toxic environment” from the players who cba to read or intentionally go out of their way to annoy people (like the OP seemingly does) by saying “it’s the designers fault” simply doesn’t sit right with me at all.

We all want new, challenging content and tweaks to the combat system. If someone is keen enough to come to the forums and propose change, you would imagine you would see threads like “New instanced content, a future approach”, or “New content, the combat dynamics moving forward”.

But no, instead we see people who seemingly don’t even know what stacking is, moaning about it and extolling the merits of trolling zerk groups.

Fenrir.3609:

That is a bit of a strange answer in all honesty. The points I raised are primarily down to the players themselves.

Game designers are partly responsible for how a player behaves in a game, the key point being the"partly".

I disagree completely. They are 100% responsible for general game play behavior of every player (unless it is hacking, scamming, or potty mouthing in chat).

Fenrir.3609:

Trying to absolve the blame for the “toxic environment” from the players who cba to read or intentionally go out of their way to annoy people (like the OP seemingly does) by saying “it’s the designers fault” simply doesn’t cut it.

I couldn’t disagree more. If the players skip everything, its because the designer made it skippable. And made doing the dungeon normally no more or less rewarding than skipping all the content. Since the only reward is at the end, and there is nothing to explore, players skip everything. When players can’t keep up, they get kicked, and players are unhappy. All this is the fault of the designer, and could be prevented by the designer.

Either you make your dungeon a full blown speedrun, and intentionally design it for that purpose. Or you prevent this sort of skipping, and create a fun, rewarding dungeon crawling experience, where not the only reward is at the end. You spread out the fun and the rewards, so the entire experience feels rewarding.

Fenrir.3609:

We all want new, challenging content and tweaks to the combat system. If someone is keen enough to come to the forums and propose change, you would imagine you would see threads like “New instanced content, a future approach”, or “New content, the combat dynamics moving forward”. But no, instead we see people who seemingly don’t even know what stacking is, moaning about it and extolling the merits of trolling zerk groups.

I think it is a cheap discussion tactic to try and latch on to his misuse of the word stacking, when we all know what he means. Stop it, it is not an argument. We all understand that he is talking about corner stacking, safe spotting, and wall stacking. So lets attack the actual argument, rather than attack the person.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Skoigoth.9238:

That´s your opinion (and it´s totally OK for you to have it, no question), but nothing more

Why thank you. I tend to feel rather strongly about it, because game design is my job as well. It’s a topic close to my heart. I can’t stand it when people let a game designer off the hook so easily. If players were playing the game wrong in one of my games, I would feel completely at fault for it.

Well, I´m not a game designer, I´m a player and as a player I will make use of all relevant tools the devs gave me to complete any given content I want to complete. The notion the people play something “the wrong way” just because you would have designed it differently is just your personal opinion, not a somehow universal truth.
In my book, as long as you don´t clearly break the rules of the game (e.g. by using save-spots, breaking out of maps or mountain-goating your way to the final boss of a dungeon) it is not wrong, whether one likes it or not.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Skoigoth.9238:

And why do you think my argument is rubbish? It is fact that nobody in this game is forced to use these strategies. Everybody has the freedom to create their own parties, with their own set of rules and the possibility to enforce those rules.

Yes, but ultimately it’s the game designers that design what is possible. They design what is the most profitable, fun, and easiest way of completing a dungeon. So it just bothers me when people say “then just play it your way”. That’s missing the point. A dungeon should encourage players to be played the way the designers intended it to be played.

I don´t think game developers can really dictate what is and what is not fun for the players. They can steer it to an extent by limiting game-play options, yes, but in the end everybody enjoys different things about the game and gets annoyed/bored/frustrated by other things.

I for example enjoy well executed skips very much. It feels very rewarding and fun to me if I pull it of flawlessly. You don´t like it? Fine, don´t do it. But if you are not forced to do it as well, why do you want to take the fun away from me then?
If you CHOOSE not to do certain things that CAN be done in this game that’s your business, not mine

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Skoigoth.9238:

And it is my opinion that the “solutions” he presented are pretty stupid (note the “I personally” in my post).

I would say, misinformed. The intention is there, but I do not agree with the solution he presents.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Skoigoth.9238:

No need to be salty =P I´m not dismissing every suggestion ever made on this forum, just two of those the OP of this thread suggested, because I think they a) wouldn´t solve anything or b) would break some stuff completely (imagine e.g. cliffside fractal with player collision, hf walking across those planks).

I don’t think player collision is the answer either. But I recognize the problem he points out. I think he just oversimplifies the issue. It is really a very complicated problem, hinging on many other problems.

Again, all just opinions (mine and yours). But at least we can agree that what he suggested wont help to improve GW2´s dungeon experience =)

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Rising Dusk.2408:

You have yet to present any cogent argument that clearly shows that skipping or stacking is “bad game design”. The only subjectively-bad game design here is in how easy so many encounters are and how that enables success with simple tactics.

It clearly was NOT the intention of the designers, that the players would dash past every mob possible, exploit flaws in the ai to get monsters stuck in corners and in walls, and exploit spots where the monsters can’t get to them, yet the players can safely kill them. It was clearly NOT the intention of the designers that people were constantly kicked from groups for not skipping all the content fast enough. The game was intended to encourage players to work together, and not exclude one another. But that is not what happened, and the game designers are responsible for that mess.

Most if not every single player in these subforums is clearly against obvious exploits and terrain glitches. The disapproval goes far enough to request fixes even for things that are mechanically working as intended (like Consecrated Ground WoR on Lupicus).
Lumping those together with completely unrelated things like skipping or stacking, as both you and the OP did, is hardly going to reinforce your positions.

Designers probably didn’t intend skipping to be so prevalent, that’s something I can easily agree with, but it’s not like there’s an easy and healthy fix for that.
You can take the issue into account when designing new content. The old one, however, would need a serious and deep rework.

Here are some words from the former Dungeon Master on this matter:
http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/16tbxt/robert_hrouda_on_skipping_mobs_in_dungeons/

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I disagree completely. They are 100% responsible for general game play behavior of every player (unless it is hacking, scamming, or potty mouthing in chat).

I pointed out that the so called toxic environment is seemingly brought about by people who either a) can’t read, b) want to troll zerk groups or c) people moaning about min/maxers because their build/gear doesn’t fall into the meta remit. The developers are not 100% responsible for said actions.

Yes there are content issues and yes the designers are predominantly to blame for them, but the “toxic environment” is mainly down to the players as mentioned above. You could find like minded players to clear dungeons and make constructive threads asking for future changes. Or you could troll zerk groups and kitten post all over the forums moaning about elitists, that choice to be "toxic"is down the the player.

Either you make your dungeon a full blown speedrun, and intentionally design it for that purpose. Or you prevent this sort of skipping, and create a fun, rewarding dungeon crawling experience, where not the only reward is at the end. You spread out the fun and the rewards, so the entire experience feels rewarding.

So we need new content, who’d a thunk it.

R.I.P. Hrouda always in our hearts

I feel like something crawling under my skin thinking of some Mr. or Ms. Developer watching my back “I’m responsible for you, player. Don’t you dare play the game differently from what I created.”

Nah, don’t think it’s meant to be like that. Too creepy. GW2 is like a sandbox game where players probably discover many different ways to enjoy it. Your responsible feeling should be put into the improvement of the future content instead.

Skoigoth.9238:

Well, I´m not a game designer, I´m a player and as a player I will make use of all relevant tools the devs gave me to complete any given content I want to complete.

And that is exactly what you are expected to do.

Skoigoth.9238:

The notion the people play something “the wrong way” just because you would have designed it differently is just your personal opinion, not a somehow universal truth.

That does not dismiss the fact that there can be unintended and unwanted emergent game play.

Skoigoth.9238:

In my book, as long as you don´t clearly break the rules of the game (e.g. by using save-spots, breaking out of maps or mountain-goating your way to the final boss of a dungeon) it is not wrong, whether one likes it or not.

There is no right or wrong in this case. Merely a question whether the game designer has achieved his intended game play.

Skoigoth.9238:

I don´t think game developers can really dictate what is and what is not fun for the players.

If they can’t, they are bad at their job. It is a game designer’s job to know what their players like, and create an enjoyable/entertaining/satisfying experience.

Skoigoth.9238:

They can steer it to an extent by limiting game-play options, yes, but in the end everybody enjoys different things about the game and gets annoyed/bored/frustrated by other things.

If a game designer cannot foresee these things to some degree, he is not good at his job.

Skoigoth.9238:

But if you are not forced to do it as well, why do you want to take the fun away from me then?

And what if you got a better game play experience in exchange for it?

Vargamonth.2047:

Lumping those together with completely unrelated things like skipping or stacking, as both you and the OP did, is hardly going to reinforce your positions.

Well to put things in perspective, these issues are related to one overlapping issue: This skipping and kicking scenario that comes up a lot.

Vargamonth.2047:

Designers probably didn’t intend skipping to be so prevalent, that’s something I can easily agree with, but it’s not like there’s an easy and healthy fix for that. You can take the issue into account when designing new content. The old one, however, would need a serious and deep rework.

On that I totally agree. It is a gigantic problem, with many sub problems that would all need to be sorted. It would be much easier to start over from scratch.

Vargamonth.2047:

Here are some words from the former Dungeon Master on this matter:
http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/16tbxt/robert_hrouda_on_skipping_mobs_in_dungeons/

Robert’s final words on the matter are kind of depressing. They sound as the equivalent of a game designer throwing his hands into the air, and saying “I can’t fix this mess, I did my best”. From his point of view, I totally understand. He’s just trying to work with what he’s got, and is not responsible for the sloppy combat design, or the choice to make these boring linear paths.

To me though it seems that they clearly failed in making the trash mobs rewarding, and fun to fight. A side effect in my opinion, of a combat system that is not very well thought out.

Derenek.8931:

Well it’s a new day, so I better refresh the flame war.

Great way to start a constructive post.

One person is somehow able to type and run at the same time (macro maybe?) we’re bypassing these mobs and going to the boss!

I didn’t finish reading your story, because it’s very difficult to take someone serious after saying something like this:

If you’re so quick to claim that other players are breaking the TOS and using macros because you are ignorant of autorun and/or lack the ability to type while running a dungeon, it seriously calls your familiarity with the game into question.

Derenek.8931:

Mossy Gargoyle.3274:

Derenek.8931:

The ranger wS entirely right. What we were doing wasn’t playing the dungeon, it was taking advantage of an exploit. So yeah, even though people on this forum will hate me, I’d line Anet to close those exploits down. Make the AI smart enough not to let is trap it into a corner and stack our AoE onto it. It’s just cheating.

Since you allege that stacking is “cheating,” please explain in a sentence or two exactly what game rule or code of conduct it breaks. I am sure many others are eager for your clarification.

Have you you ever played an RPG tabletop style? With a dungeon master and stuff?

Just wanted to add that stacking is also a kitten-poor strategy in checkers, too.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Here, have a fruit basket. For being one in many posters to completely miss his point.

He is not having trouble finding a group. He has a problem with OTHER people being kicked from groups, because they aren’t running fast enough. It has made doing dungeons toxic and unpleasant, and I totally agree with him.

I can run dungeons just fine, but when I see that VOTE KICK pop up because someone died, I get angry. I vote no, and then await the inevitable players that leave the group. That is what playing dungeons is often like. I hate it. It’s not the player’s fault though, it’s the design of the dungeons.

No. Any point he might have originally had has stopped being one on page 2 and following when this thread turned into some kind of “anti-stacking” crusade – let me quote:

Derenek.8931:

Fenrir.3609:

Except stacking isn’t an exploit, nor is it cheating (borderline or otherwise).

It is also somewhat rich to mention morals given the fact that you insinuated earlier that you go into specific req dungeon groups with non req gear/builds, in order to annoy people.

Here it is a matter if intent more than result.

I try and make things tough on those guys because I hate bullies and am trying to get some small sort of justice.

It has been explained by various posters since the very first page: For each individual, there are suitable and non-suitable groups. It is also the responsibility of each individual to respect that. I would consider this as one of the most basic aspects of human interaction.

If there is some kind of cat-lovers club (this forum likes kittens after all), you don’t show up there with your dog. If there is a dress-code to a party, you don’t violate it. If a dungeon group asks for certain requirements, you make sure that you meet them upon joining. If the requirements are unclear, you ask about them at the beginning. By acting, you avoid later disappointment.

The kind of behaviour the OP described in his fairy-tale or you did in yours is something I have been successfully avoiding for years. Yes, that’s right, years of PUG-ing dungeons. I always make sure there are some requirements for the groups I join (or open myself) and that they are being honoured upon joining. If I suspect someone is a beginner, I ask about it. Kicks during a dungeon I’ve witnessed very very rarely. Never even happened to myself.

As far as I can tell from posts such as yours, you are trying too hard to be the victim. Either by not talking about group requirements, carelessly putting your head into the sand and then get upset when things go wrong because of your own inaction. This is not a matter of game-play, but of human behaviour.

This thread should have been over two pages ago… and that’s me being generous.

Iris Ng.9845:

I feel like something crawling under my skin thinking of some Mr. or Ms. Developer watching my back “I’m responsible for you, player. Don’t you dare play the game differently from what I created.”

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

If players were playing the game wrong in one of my games, I would feel completely at fault for it.

I guess I can’t help myself.

How does one play a game “wrong”?
are you saying a video game designer should shepard a player into doing one exact thing?

so.. no creativity allowed from players?

IF you are a game designer, your games sound crap.

/derail.

edit:
lets have another example.
I had an lfg posted up under fractal 40, asking for a staff ele.
Had a guardian join, immediately whine about how he doesn’t play to be told what to do.
Bragged that he would be done before us and leave. We finished 40 and 30 – the troll never left LA. He broke our lfg so we couldn’t list and had to wait for a guildie/friend to come online. We were half way through our second fractal when he joined.

So yeah.. Abuse isn’t limited to those who play meta.
And this is why we need filters and such on the LFG.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Either you make your dungeon a full blown speedrun, and intentionally design it for that purpose. Or you prevent this sort of skipping, and create a fun, rewarding dungeon crawling experience, where not the only reward is at the end. You spread out the fun and the rewards, so the entire experience feels rewarding.

Why can’t both coexist? In most game I played, I try to 100% complete it. But why can’t a speed runner be able to well speed run it? I have fun watching speed run too.

Same with GW2, but then I participle in both. I try to complete everything I can, in most if not all dungeon, I did full clear run. But now I only do speed run because that’s what I prefer to do. Why one side need to win, why can different people complete the same content their own way and all have fun doing it? Why do people need everybody to complete the content like they prefer?

And tbh I don’t mind if they change dungeon to limit a bit of skipping. But it depend on how they do it. Plenty of mobs are killed by most group even if they are optional. Why? Because they are fun fight or give a good reward. That’s the way to do it, positive reinforcement. Hey you can skip those mobs, but you won’t gonna get that reward. I preferred the older dungeon reward system where mobs were dropping silvers and at the end we only got the 26 silver chest with no 1 gold bonus chest. You wanted to kill mobs to get the most reward, but you could speed run through it if you wanted. They changed it because ppl were farming the mobs, but they could give a diminishing reward on the money these mob give, it’s just way easier to remove it all and give 1 bonus chest at the end.

The problem, is that most people that complain about skipping propose negative reinforcement. They want a infinite leash or put additional door that won’t open before you kill everything or stuff like that. They don’t see that as negative because they like to full clear anyway. But when fight give you nothing and are not fun, it’s not a good idea to force people to do those fight.

That’s the Game Master job to regulate the game. Game Designers should only focus on bug fix and new content. No use to dive into virtual parenting.

Satenia.9025:

The kind of behaviour the OP described in his fairy-tale or you did in yours is something I have been successfully avoiding for years.

So you are calling someone elses experience a fairytale, even when it is confirmed by yet another player? How about rather than denial, you try to address the issue with something other than “then don’t join those groups”?

Satenia.9025:

As far as I can tell from posts such as yours, you are trying too hard to be the victim.

I’m not the victim. I don’t even have a ranger character. But I see it happen to other players in my group. And I would also like for other people than myself to have fun. Perhaps you could try this mindset for the purpose of this discussion?

Artemis Thuras.8795:

How does one play a game “wrong”?
are you saying a video game designer should shepard a player into doing one exact thing?

Or multiple exact things. Game designers all do this all the time. The trick is to make sure that you do not notice that we are steering your choices.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

so.. no creativity allowed from players?

Only the illusion of creativity, unless you are playing Minecraft. There is (or should be) very little that the players come up with, that the game designer hasn’t already thought of.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

IF you are a game designer, your games sound crap.

All video games are designed with this mindset. Sorry for shattering your dream.

Iris Ng.9845:

That’s the Game Master job to regulate the game. Game Designers should only focus on bug fix and new content. No use to dive into virtual parenting.

Designing new content == designing how the content is played

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Satenia.9025:

The kind of behaviour the OP described in his fairy-tale or you did in yours is something I have been successfully avoiding for years.

So you are calling someone elses experience a fairytale, even when it is confirmed by yet another player? How about rather than denial, you try to address the issue with something other than “then don’t join those groups”?

Satenia.9025:

As far as I can tell from posts such as yours, you are trying too hard to be the victim.

I’m not the victim. I don’t even have a ranger character. But I see it happen to other players in my group. And I would also like for other people than myself to have fun. Perhaps you could try this mindset for the purpose of this discussion?

There is no need for me to do either. People can all have fun by forming corresponding groups and happily co-exist. How this is being done has been explained by me and others. I have no desire to further participate in a discussion where you want to limit everyone to one single approach to content (which happens to be what you favour yourself).