Guild Wars 2

Times change. People want to be rewarded for their time. When I was a kid, I could spend all day playing video games, and it would be a good day. Everything was new and shiny.

Now? I have less time, and things that are new and shiny hard to come by. Guild Wars 2 dungeons? New the first time but not all that shiny. I liken them to those of lesser Asian MMOs. If the dungeons were innovative, I could see myself being as drawn to them as I am to all the other features of this game. But they aren’t. They are pretty basic.

I applaud those of you who are able to run Guild Wars 2 dungeons 100+ times for the experience alone, but that is not me. I can run something once or twice for the fun of it. And if I were to run it more, it would have to be for something substantial. Part of MY fun is the reward.

I can’t believe your complaining about being able to run a dungeon multiple times, getting rewards for each in a single day. In past games, you are LOCKED from entering that dungeon again for as long as 4 days! No you should NOT be able to speed clear dungeons as much as you want, you should not be getting your epic gear within a couple of days :S In warhammer for example, it took players and myself at times, months to get our epic glyphs, no to say it has to take this long for gw2.

You “skilled players” do not have special rites over every one else, what makes you think speed clearing dungeons in 10 mins a piece is acceptable?

miya.5160:

Times change. People want to be rewarded for their time. When I was a kid, I could spend all day playing video games, and it would be a good day. Everything was new and shiny.

Now? I have less time, and things that are new and shiny hard to come by. Guild Wars 2 dungeons? New the first time but not all that shiny. I liken them to those of lesser Asian MMOs. If the dungeons were innovative, I could see myself being as drawn to them as I am to all the other features of this game. But they aren’t. They are pretty basic.

I applaud those of you who are able to run Guild Wars 2 dungeons 100+ times for the experience alone, but that is not me. I can run something once or twice for the fun of it. And if I were to run it more, it would have to be for something substantial. Part of MY fun is the reward.

It shouldn’t affect people who have little time to play. The ones who will be doing all dungeons in under 20 minutes will be the ones playing a lot

I would rather see no DR’s at all until you have done every dungeon once. Maybe after you do a path you get a lock out timer on that path for an hour or even a day. At least we would know where we stand then. I see no point in punishing me in AC because I just had a good run in CoF, the rewards are different.

rickets.1386:

I would rather see no DR’s at all until you have done every dungeon once. Maybe after you do a path you get a lock out timer on that path for an hour or even a day. At least we would know where we stand then. I see no point in punishing me in AC because I just had a good run in CoF, the rewards are different.

You mean once in 1 day?

ref.8196:

It shouldn’t affect people who have little time to play. The ones who will be doing all dungeons in under 20 minutes will be the ones playing a lot

Not always the case ref. What if someone can only play 5 hours on a saturday and thats it. Well if they want to grind dungeons for that 5 hours and they are good they will get DR’s.

ref.8196:

rickets.1386:

I would rather see no DR’s at all until you have done every dungeon once. Maybe after you do a path you get a lock out timer on that path for an hour or even a day. At least we would know where we stand then. I see no point in punishing me in AC because I just had a good run in CoF, the rewards are different.

You mean once in 1 day?

yea obviously not ideal but at least you would never get DR’s. Finishing a run and getting 5 tokens is much worse then not doing the dungeon at all imo.

rickets.1386:

ref.8196:

rickets.1386:

I would rather see no DR’s at all until you have done every dungeon once. Maybe after you do a path you get a lock out timer on that path for an hour or even a day. At least we would know where we stand then. I see no point in punishing me in AC because I just had a good run in CoF, the rewards are different.

You mean once in 1 day?

yea obviously not ideal but at least you would never get DR’s. Finishing a run and getting 5 tokens is much worse then not doing the dungeon at all imo.

maybe they should lower the DR on different dungeons, but keep the same DR for running the same path in 1 dungeon

rickets.1386:

ref.8196:

It shouldn’t affect people who have little time to play. The ones who will be doing all dungeons in under 20 minutes will be the ones playing a lot

Not always the case ref. What if someone can only play 5 hours on a saturday and thats it. Well if they want to grind dungeons for that 5 hours and they are good they will get DR’s.

that’s true

ref.8196:

rickets.1386:

ref.8196:

rickets.1386:

I would rather see no DR’s at all until you have done every dungeon once. Maybe after you do a path you get a lock out timer on that path for an hour or even a day. At least we would know where we stand then. I see no point in punishing me in AC because I just had a good run in CoF, the rewards are different.

You mean once in 1 day?

yea obviously not ideal but at least you would never get DR’s. Finishing a run and getting 5 tokens is much worse then not doing the dungeon at all imo.

maybe they should lower the DR on different dungeons, but keep the same DR for running the same path in 1 dungeon

rickets.1386:

ref.8196:

It shouldn’t affect people who have little time to play. The ones who will be doing all dungeons in under 20 minutes will be the ones playing a lot

Not always the case ref. What if someone can only play 5 hours on a saturday and thats it. Well if they want to grind dungeons for that 5 hours and they are good they will get DR’s.

that’s true

We agreed on the internet! That is rare lol.

Guys the DR only kicks in for those that are running 10-15 minute dungeon clears, honestly the only way one can do that is using exploits or abusing their skills to bypass unwanted content. My guild ran AC twice last night back to back different paths and got the full amount of tokens at the end of each. We were efficient and cleared both dungeons in about 30 minutes each, the first was a little faster than that even. So if you are hitting all the content and not running the same path over and over, the DR really shouldn’t affect you. Now I do understand that there is a bug that might not make this true for everyone but I think what we encountered is the expected result.

Is nobody even reading? It doesn’t affect you unless you run multiple dungeons in less then 30 mins each in a short peroid of time. so if in 5 hours you complete 10-20 dungeons in that time then yes you should get lower rewards. If each of your run takes 30mins or more then IT WILL NOT AFFECT YOU AT ALL. There is a bug that is causing people to get a small amount of rewards, that is not DR, that’s a bug they’re working on it. I did all 3 paths in CM and got 60 rewards for each one after each other.

pahldus.1678:

Guys the DR only kicks in for those that are running 10-15 minute dungeon clears, honestly the only way one can do that is using exploits or abusing their skills to bypass unwanted content. My guild ran AC twice last night back to back different paths and got the full amount of tokens at the end of each. We were efficient and cleared both dungeons in about 30 minutes each, the first was a little faster than that even. So if you are hitting all the content and not running the same path over and over, the DR really shouldn’t affect you. Now I do understand that there is a bug that might not make this true for everyone but I think what we encountered is the expected result.

Me and my guild can clear SE explorable path 1 in about 15 minutes without skipping mobs, using organized tactics, utilizing combo fields, or using full exotic (non of us have even 50% exotic gear). I totally see your point, the dungeons are totally not kitten and were totally designed around this DR system, it couldn’t have been throw together in a day and implemented without any testing. Putting the bug aside you’re all beingkitten the QQers and the white knight defenders. I don’t have fun in dungeons, does that mean they’re broken? No. I get kitten drops from doing one dungeon in an entire week (6tokens 2s), does that mean DR is broken? Yes. Should DR be put into place at all? No. Most of the content designers were not around during GW1, and honestly this game has just about jackkitten to do with GW1, they just recycled characters and used it as back story. It’s a really poorly put together mmo that was rushed, the “Vision” is there but it’s nowhere near complete. Hopefully in a few months everything gets sorted out, but until then stop kittening at people that are venting honest to god complaints because it just makes you look like an uppity kitten.

JonPeters.5630:

rickets.1386:

JonPeters.5630:

Plain and simple this system is a safety net for stopping crazy farming when people find exploits that make each run super fast. We are also addressing those loopholes, but that takes time and new ones might always be discovered. If you and your group do the dungeons without skipping large sections and run different chains this system shoul(bugs aside) never impact you.

Addendum for clarity, super fast means < 30 minutes, and even then you must hit that speed multiple times in a row before you start seeing any impact.

Thanks for the reply Jon, and thanks for giving a time. However, my group just did a legit maggs run and a legit AC path 2 run in 25 minutes each. Of course with the bug we all got different rewards but i will post that in the proper forum with times.

They were not death free runs and we didn’t feel like we did them as fast as we could have, so when we bring our “A” game we will basically be waiting in front of the last boss room for 10 minutes to make sure we get full rewards….not fun. But, I guess if the system starts to work like you hope and it takes multiple sub 30 minute runs in a row we should be fine.

I will also be posting links to the 2 runs we just did(as soon as they are uploaded) to prove we did them legit.

Thanks and i hope a fix is on its way soon.

Thank you this is excellent info. We would like dungeons to be legit hard enough to take closer to 45 mins but if we can’t accomplish that goal we can look at the speed clear times from non exploiters and easily adjust the system. The goal is that hardcore farmers don’t even see this thing but only exploiters. We will keep working towards that goal.

Jon

Thanks, that makes your intentions much clearer.

JonPeters.5630:

Thank you this is excellent info. We would like dungeons to be legit hard enough to take closer to 45 mins but if we can’t accomplish that goal we can look at the speed clear times from non exploiters and easily adjust the system. The goal is that hardcore farmers don’t even see this thing but only exploiters. We will keep working towards that goal.

Jon

As long as your plan to do this doesn’t involve adding more trash mobs and doubling the time events take.

JonPeters

Thank you this is excellent info. We would like dungeons to be legit hard enough to take closer to 45 mins but if we can’t accomplish that goal we can look at the speed clear times from non exploiters and easily adjust the system. The goal is that hardcore farmers don’t even see this thing but only exploiters. We will keep working towards that goal.
Jon

I was literally about to suggest you guys would do this very thing. Glad to see that I was right.

Once the bugs are fixed, my guess is it’ll be trivial to tweak the numbers for each dungeon as the farmers/speed clearers figure it out. I, for one, trust that you guys’ll make it as fair as you can

JonPeters.5630:

rickets.1386:

JonPeters.5630:

Plain and simple this system is a safety net for stopping crazy farming when people find exploits that make each run super fast. We are also addressing those loopholes, but that takes time and new ones might always be discovered. If you and your group do the dungeons without skipping large sections and run different chains this system shoul(bugs aside) never impact you.

Addendum for clarity, super fast means < 30 minutes, and even then you must hit that speed multiple times in a row before you start seeing any impact.

Thanks for the reply Jon, and thanks for giving a time. However, my group just did a legit maggs run and a legit AC path 2 run in 25 minutes each. Of course with the bug we all got different rewards but i will post that in the proper forum with times.

They were not death free runs and we didn’t feel like we did them as fast as we could have, so when we bring our “A” game we will basically be waiting in front of the last boss room for 10 minutes to make sure we get full rewards….not fun. But, I guess if the system starts to work like you hope and it takes multiple sub 30 minute runs in a row we should be fine.

I will also be posting links to the 2 runs we just did(as soon as they are uploaded) to prove we did them legit.

Thanks and i hope a fix is on its way soon.

Thank you this is excellent info. We would like dungeons to be legit hard enough to take closer to 45 mins but if we can’t accomplish that goal we can look at the speed clear times from non exploiters and easily adjust the system. The goal is that hardcore farmers don’t even see this thing but only exploiters. We will keep working towards that goal.

Jon

Finally something I agree on. But it will all depend on how these dungeons are lengthened. As a piece of advice, please don’t increase the hp of anything. Don’t make it technically challenging, but make it strategically challenging. If the difference between what we have now and what we end up with is 2 more minutes bashing on each trash mob group then something went wrong. I really hope that in the end I’m allowed to grind this out at my own pace. This would be different if the rewards were similar to games with raid-lock-outs but I feel that that method (along with DR) is a poor excuse for forcing players to play the way you want when their reward is simply cosmetic gear. I honestly don’t care one bit if some guy down the road can grind for 2 hours and get the gear… it doesn’t give him any advantage. What is important is what he finds fun. (which has been some motto for Anet with GW2 for some time, right? play your way or some such…)

JonPeters.5630:

rickets.1386:

JonPeters.5630:

Plain and simple this system is a safety net for stopping crazy farming when people find exploits that make each run super fast. We are also addressing those loopholes, but that takes time and new ones might always be discovered. If you and your group do the dungeons without skipping large sections and run different chains this system shoul(bugs aside) never impact you.

Addendum for clarity, super fast means < 30 minutes, and even then you must hit that speed multiple times in a row before you start seeing any impact.

Thanks for the reply Jon, and thanks for giving a time. However, my group just did a legit maggs run and a legit AC path 2 run in 25 minutes each. Of course with the bug we all got different rewards but i will post that in the proper forum with times.

They were not death free runs and we didn’t feel like we did them as fast as we could have, so when we bring our “A” game we will basically be waiting in front of the last boss room for 10 minutes to make sure we get full rewards….not fun. But, I guess if the system starts to work like you hope and it takes multiple sub 30 minute runs in a row we should be fine.

I will also be posting links to the 2 runs we just did(as soon as they are uploaded) to prove we did them legit.

Thanks and i hope a fix is on its way soon.

Thank you this is excellent info. We would like dungeons to be legit hard enough to take closer to 45 mins but if we can’t accomplish that goal we can look at the speed clear times from non exploiters and easily adjust the system. The goal is that hardcore farmers don’t even see this thing but only exploiters. We will keep working towards that goal.

Jon

Thats an awesome idea jon. The problem is level 4 toons are hitting this “system” or “bug”.

you want us to farm karma for gear at 42,000 karma a pice. ok fine, dont restrict on us how much karma we can get in a hour. or reduced the amount of karma needed to buy the set of armor.

Or add in more ways to get karma. for example remove WvW tokens and grant karma per kill. this will get more people intrested in WvW.

The bottom line is they just don’t have any idea or “thoughts outside the box” to fix these dungeons, so I have a suggestion to alleviate people speed running these dungeons. Take the leash off your trash mobs so people actually have to fight them and cant just run past them, if the players couldn’t just run by these mobs it would take longer for the group to complete the dungeon which is what you guys want anyways. Simple. But here is some criticism I know you probably wont like it but your dungeon design is just poor in many ways, but your arrogance wont let you see it, I have yet to date seen a dungeon in any MMO that was this exploitable and poorly designed and or this buggy, and I been playing MMO’s for over 15 years.

JonPeters.5630:

rickets.1386:

JonPeters.5630:

Plain and simple this system is a safety net for stopping crazy farming when people find exploits that make each run super fast. We are also addressing those loopholes, but that takes time and new ones might always be discovered. If you and your group do the dungeons without skipping large sections and run different chains this system shoul(bugs aside) never impact you.

Addendum for clarity, super fast means < 30 minutes, and even then you must hit that speed multiple times in a row before you start seeing any impact.

Thanks for the reply Jon, and thanks for giving a time. However, my group just did a legit maggs run and a legit AC path 2 run in 25 minutes each. Of course with the bug we all got different rewards but i will post that in the proper forum with times.

They were not death free runs and we didn’t feel like we did them as fast as we could have, so when we bring our “A” game we will basically be waiting in front of the last boss room for 10 minutes to make sure we get full rewards….not fun. But, I guess if the system starts to work like you hope and it takes multiple sub 30 minute runs in a row we should be fine.

I will also be posting links to the 2 runs we just did(as soon as they are uploaded) to prove we did them legit.

Thanks and i hope a fix is on its way soon.

Thank you this is excellent info. We would like dungeons to be legit hard enough to take closer to 45 mins but if we can’t accomplish that goal we can look at the speed clear times from non exploiters and easily adjust the system. The goal is that hardcore farmers don’t even see this thing but only exploiters. We will keep working towards that goal.

Jon

Wow, thank you. This is much better. I was beginning to worry there Jon. hugs I knew you guys would do the right thing. 30 mins was way too long. My guildies and I were talking about this very thing, because we don’t exploit and we can do sub 30 min clears.

And also… why would you goal be 45 mins? I really think 20-30 mins is the sweet spot in terms of the fun factor, at least for me and my guild mates.

Jasher.6580:

JonPeters.5630:

rickets.1386:

JonPeters.5630:

Plain and simple this system is a safety net for stopping crazy farming when people find exploits that make each run super fast. We are also addressing those loopholes, but that takes time and new ones might always be discovered. If you and your group do the dungeons without skipping large sections and run different chains this system shoul(bugs aside) never impact you.

Addendum for clarity, super fast means < 30 minutes, and even then you must hit that speed multiple times in a row before you start seeing any impact.

Thanks for the reply Jon, and thanks for giving a time. However, my group just did a legit maggs run and a legit AC path 2 run in 25 minutes each. Of course with the bug we all got different rewards but i will post that in the proper forum with times.

They were not death free runs and we didn’t feel like we did them as fast as we could have, so when we bring our “A” game we will basically be waiting in front of the last boss room for 10 minutes to make sure we get full rewards….not fun. But, I guess if the system starts to work like you hope and it takes multiple sub 30 minute runs in a row we should be fine.

I will also be posting links to the 2 runs we just did(as soon as they are uploaded) to prove we did them legit.

Thanks and i hope a fix is on its way soon.

Thank you this is excellent info. We would like dungeons to be legit hard enough to take closer to 45 mins but if we can’t accomplish that goal we can look at the speed clear times from non exploiters and easily adjust the system. The goal is that hardcore farmers don’t even see this thing but only exploiters. We will keep working towards that goal.

Jon

Wow, thank you. This is much better. I was beginning to worry there Jon. hugs I knew you guys would do the right thing. 30 mins was way too long. My guildies and I were talking about this very thing, because we don’t exploit and we can do sub 20 min clears.

And also… why would you goal be 45 mins? I really think 20-30 mins is the sweet spot in terms of the fun factor, at least for me and my guild mates.

45 mins seems perfect for me

ref.8196:

Jasher.6580:

JonPeters.5630:

rickets.1386:

JonPeters.5630:

Plain and simple this system is a safety net for stopping crazy farming when people find exploits that make each run super fast. We are also addressing those loopholes, but that takes time and new ones might always be discovered. If you and your group do the dungeons without skipping large sections and run different chains this system shoul(bugs aside) never impact you.

Addendum for clarity, super fast means < 30 minutes, and even then you must hit that speed multiple times in a row before you start seeing any impact.

Thanks for the reply Jon, and thanks for giving a time. However, my group just did a legit maggs run and a legit AC path 2 run in 25 minutes each. Of course with the bug we all got different rewards but i will post that in the proper forum with times.

They were not death free runs and we didn’t feel like we did them as fast as we could have, so when we bring our “A” game we will basically be waiting in front of the last boss room for 10 minutes to make sure we get full rewards….not fun. But, I guess if the system starts to work like you hope and it takes multiple sub 30 minute runs in a row we should be fine.

I will also be posting links to the 2 runs we just did(as soon as they are uploaded) to prove we did them legit.

Thanks and i hope a fix is on its way soon.

Thank you this is excellent info. We would like dungeons to be legit hard enough to take closer to 45 mins but if we can’t accomplish that goal we can look at the speed clear times from non exploiters and easily adjust the system. The goal is that hardcore farmers don’t even see this thing but only exploiters. We will keep working towards that goal.

Jon

Wow, thank you. This is much better. I was beginning to worry there Jon. hugs I knew you guys would do the right thing. 30 mins was way too long. My guildies and I were talking about this very thing, because we don’t exploit and we can do sub 20 min clears.

And also… why would you goal be 45 mins? I really think 20-30 mins is the sweet spot in terms of the fun factor, at least for me and my guild mates.

45 mins seems perfect for me

45 mins for a perfect execution would amount to hours of frustration for the average gamer. People don’t have that much time to invest in structured (team) video game activity. That’s hours of neglecting the wife and kids. Or just hours of wiping and then people leaving because they refuse to neglect the wife and kids.

JonPeters.5630:

rickets.1386:

JonPeters.5630:

Plain and simple this system is a safety net for stopping crazy farming when people find exploits that make each run super fast. We are also addressing those loopholes, but that takes time and new ones might always be discovered. If you and your group do the dungeons without skipping large sections and run different chains this system shoul(bugs aside) never impact you.

Addendum for clarity, super fast means < 30 minutes, and even then you must hit that speed multiple times in a row before you start seeing any impact.

Thanks for the reply Jon, and thanks for giving a time. However, my group just did a legit maggs run and a legit AC path 2 run in 25 minutes each. Of course with the bug we all got different rewards but i will post that in the proper forum with times.

They were not death free runs and we didn’t feel like we did them as fast as we could have, so when we bring our “A” game we will basically be waiting in front of the last boss room for 10 minutes to make sure we get full rewards….not fun. But, I guess if the system starts to work like you hope and it takes multiple sub 30 minute runs in a row we should be fine.

I will also be posting links to the 2 runs we just did(as soon as they are uploaded) to prove we did them legit.

Thanks and i hope a fix is on its way soon.

Thank you this is excellent info. We would like dungeons to be legit hard enough to take closer to 45 mins but if we can’t accomplish that goal we can look at the speed clear times from non exploiters and easily adjust the system. The goal is that hardcore farmers don’t even see this thing but only exploiters. We will keep working towards that goal.

Jon

Jon, I came up with an idea that rewards people of skill.

It works like this:

You start an explore dungeon with 360 possible tokens you can get for the run.

Each death = -5 tokens.

At the beginning of each dungeon, there is a dynamic event that starts. This represents the path you’ve chosen and the percentage of it’s completion dictates how much of the 360 tokens you get at the end of the dungeon.

So, if I skip trash I don’t fulfill the event to it’s completion, therefore I don’t get the full 360 tokens. If I die a lot, again, I lose my rewards as I go through.

When you get to a boss, lets say the first one and you’ve completed 15% of the dungeon with one death, you’d get the full 15% of your tokens -5 for the death. So this way, if people need to leave, they can and aren’t penalized for real life.

If you’re able to complete a dungeon without any deaths, 100% and within a time frame, you get an achievement. Completing all paths + story mode with this achievement would award you a weapon of choice for that dungeon.

See, you’re rewarded for being skilled.

You’re encouraged to repeat the content.

You’re penalized for skipping.

Zagdul.1502:

JonPeters.5630:

rickets.1386:

JonPeters.5630:

Plain and simple this system is a safety net for stopping crazy farming when people find exploits that make each run super fast. We are also addressing those loopholes, but that takes time and new ones might always be discovered. If you and your group do the dungeons without skipping large sections and run different chains this system shoul(bugs aside) never impact you.

Addendum for clarity, super fast means < 30 minutes, and even then you must hit that speed multiple times in a row before you start seeing any impact.

Thanks for the reply Jon, and thanks for giving a time. However, my group just did a legit maggs run and a legit AC path 2 run in 25 minutes each. Of course with the bug we all got different rewards but i will post that in the proper forum with times.

They were not death free runs and we didn’t feel like we did them as fast as we could have, so when we bring our “A” game we will basically be waiting in front of the last boss room for 10 minutes to make sure we get full rewards….not fun. But, I guess if the system starts to work like you hope and it takes multiple sub 30 minute runs in a row we should be fine.

I will also be posting links to the 2 runs we just did(as soon as they are uploaded) to prove we did them legit.

Thanks and i hope a fix is on its way soon.

Thank you this is excellent info. We would like dungeons to be legit hard enough to take closer to 45 mins but if we can’t accomplish that goal we can look at the speed clear times from non exploiters and easily adjust the system. The goal is that hardcore farmers don’t even see this thing but only exploiters. We will keep working towards that goal.

Jon

Jon, I came up with an idea that rewards people of skill.

It works like this:

You start an explore dungeon with 360 possible tokens you can get for the run.

Each death = -5 tokens.

At the beginning of each dungeon, there is a dynamic event that starts. This represents the path you’ve chosen and the percentage of it’s completion dictates how much of the 360 tokens you get at the end of the dungeon.

So, if I skip trash I don’t fulfill the event to it’s completion, therefore I don’t get the full 360 tokens. If I die a lot, again, I lose my rewards as I go through.

When you get to a boss, lets say the first one and you’ve completed 15% of the dungeon with one death, you’d get the full 15% of your tokens -5 for the death. So this way, if people need to leave, they can and aren’t penalized for real life.

If you’re able to complete a dungeon without any deaths, 100% and within a time frame, you get an achievement. Completing all paths + story mode with this achievement would award you a weapon of choice for that dungeon.

See, you’re rewarded for being skilled.

You’re encouraged to repeat the content.

You’re penalized for skipping.

Recoding this would take years.

Zagdul.1502:

JonPeters.5630:

rickets.1386:

JonPeters.5630:

Plain and simple this system is a safety net for stopping crazy farming when people find exploits that make each run super fast. We are also addressing those loopholes, but that takes time and new ones might always be discovered. If you and your group do the dungeons without skipping large sections and run different chains this system shoul(bugs aside) never impact you.

Addendum for clarity, super fast means < 30 minutes, and even then you must hit that speed multiple times in a row before you start seeing any impact.

Thanks for the reply Jon, and thanks for giving a time. However, my group just did a legit maggs run and a legit AC path 2 run in 25 minutes each. Of course with the bug we all got different rewards but i will post that in the proper forum with times.

They were not death free runs and we didn’t feel like we did them as fast as we could have, so when we bring our “A” game we will basically be waiting in front of the last boss room for 10 minutes to make sure we get full rewards….not fun. But, I guess if the system starts to work like you hope and it takes multiple sub 30 minute runs in a row we should be fine.

I will also be posting links to the 2 runs we just did(as soon as they are uploaded) to prove we did them legit.

Thanks and i hope a fix is on its way soon.

Thank you this is excellent info. We would like dungeons to be legit hard enough to take closer to 45 mins but if we can’t accomplish that goal we can look at the speed clear times from non exploiters and easily adjust the system. The goal is that hardcore farmers don’t even see this thing but only exploiters. We will keep working towards that goal.

Jon

Jon, I came up with an idea that rewards people of skill.

It works like this:

You start an explore dungeon with 360 possible tokens you can get for the run.

Each death = -5 tokens.

At the beginning of each dungeon, there is a dynamic event that starts. This represents the path you’ve chosen and the percentage of it’s completion dictates how much of the 360 tokens you get at the end of the dungeon.

So, if I skip trash I don’t fulfill the event to it’s completion, therefore I don’t get the full 360 tokens. If I die a lot, again, I lose my rewards as I go through.

When you get to a boss, lets say the first one and you’ve completed 15% of the dungeon with one death, you’d get the full 15% of your tokens -5 for the death. So this way, if people need to leave, they can and aren’t penalized for real life.

If you’re able to complete a dungeon without any deaths, 100% and within a time frame, you get an achievement. Completing all paths + story mode with this achievement would award you a weapon of choice for that dungeon.

See, you’re rewarded for being skilled.

You’re encouraged to repeat the content.

You’re penalized for skipping.

This would encourage class stacking. Not a good idea imho.

Jasher.6580:

Zagdul.1502:

JonPeters.5630:

rickets.1386:

JonPeters.5630:

Plain and simple this system is a safety net for stopping crazy farming when people find exploits that make each run super fast. We are also addressing those loopholes, but that takes time and new ones might always be discovered. If you and your group do the dungeons without skipping large sections and run different chains this system shoul(bugs aside) never impact you.

Addendum for clarity, super fast means < 30 minutes, and even then you must hit that speed multiple times in a row before you start seeing any impact.

Thanks for the reply Jon, and thanks for giving a time. However, my group just did a legit maggs run and a legit AC path 2 run in 25 minutes each. Of course with the bug we all got different rewards but i will post that in the proper forum with times.

They were not death free runs and we didn’t feel like we did them as fast as we could have, so when we bring our “A” game we will basically be waiting in front of the last boss room for 10 minutes to make sure we get full rewards….not fun. But, I guess if the system starts to work like you hope and it takes multiple sub 30 minute runs in a row we should be fine.

I will also be posting links to the 2 runs we just did(as soon as they are uploaded) to prove we did them legit.

Thanks and i hope a fix is on its way soon.

Thank you this is excellent info. We would like dungeons to be legit hard enough to take closer to 45 mins but if we can’t accomplish that goal we can look at the speed clear times from non exploiters and easily adjust the system. The goal is that hardcore farmers don’t even see this thing but only exploiters. We will keep working towards that goal.

Jon

Jon, I came up with an idea that rewards people of skill.

It works like this:

You start an explore dungeon with 360 possible tokens you can get for the run.

Each death = -5 tokens.

At the beginning of each dungeon, there is a dynamic event that starts. This represents the path you’ve chosen and the percentage of it’s completion dictates how much of the 360 tokens you get at the end of the dungeon.

So, if I skip trash I don’t fulfill the event to it’s completion, therefore I don’t get the full 360 tokens. If I die a lot, again, I lose my rewards as I go through.

When you get to a boss, lets say the first one and you’ve completed 15% of the dungeon with one death, you’d get the full 15% of your tokens -5 for the death. So this way, if people need to leave, they can and aren’t penalized for real life.

If you’re able to complete a dungeon without any deaths, 100% and within a time frame, you get an achievement. Completing all paths + story mode with this achievement would award you a weapon of choice for that dungeon.

See, you’re rewarded for being skilled.

You’re encouraged to repeat the content.

You’re penalized for skipping.

This would encourage class stacking. Not a good idea imho.

I disagree. There are very few classes not needed in PVE. I have yet to come across one who doesn’t bring something of value to the table.

edit: Not to mention, achievements are account wide. If a specific class does perform better at an area, it literally takes a week to level that class to 80 and minimal effort to put it in some very good gear.

Jasher.6580:

ref.8196:

Jasher.6580:

JonPeters.5630:

rickets.1386:

JonPeters.5630:

Plain and simple this system is a safety net for stopping crazy farming when people find exploits that make each run super fast. We are also addressing those loopholes, but that takes time and new ones might always be discovered. If you and your group do the dungeons without skipping large sections and run different chains this system shoul(bugs aside) never impact you.

Addendum for clarity, super fast means < 30 minutes, and even then you must hit that speed multiple times in a row before you start seeing any impact.

Thanks for the reply Jon, and thanks for giving a time. However, my group just did a legit maggs run and a legit AC path 2 run in 25 minutes each. Of course with the bug we all got different rewards but i will post that in the proper forum with times.

They were not death free runs and we didn’t feel like we did them as fast as we could have, so when we bring our “A” game we will basically be waiting in front of the last boss room for 10 minutes to make sure we get full rewards….not fun. But, I guess if the system starts to work like you hope and it takes multiple sub 30 minute runs in a row we should be fine.

I will also be posting links to the 2 runs we just did(as soon as they are uploaded) to prove we did them legit.

Thanks and i hope a fix is on its way soon.

Thank you this is excellent info. We would like dungeons to be legit hard enough to take closer to 45 mins but if we can’t accomplish that goal we can look at the speed clear times from non exploiters and easily adjust the system. The goal is that hardcore farmers don’t even see this thing but only exploiters. We will keep working towards that goal.

Jon

Wow, thank you. This is much better. I was beginning to worry there Jon. hugs I knew you guys would do the right thing. 30 mins was way too long. My guildies and I were talking about this very thing, because we don’t exploit and we can do sub 20 min clears.

And also… why would you goal be 45 mins? I really think 20-30 mins is the sweet spot in terms of the fun factor, at least for me and my guild mates.

45 mins seems perfect for me

45 mins for a perfect execution would amount to hours of frustration for the average gamer. People don’t have that much time to invest in structured (team) video game activity. That’s hours of neglecting the wife and kids. Or just hours of wiping and then people leaving because they refuse to neglect the wife and kids.

UW, FoW and DoA took even longer than that to complete. And hours is an exaggeration, a fast run at the minute is between 20/25 mins. A first run (for our guild anyway, with little co-ordination) on these dungeons took us about an hour, which is a reasonable time, so we can equate that if they want them to take 45 mins, a first run with a pug/guild could take between 60 and 90 minutes.

Currently a fast run with a good group doing everything flawlessly is between 20-25 mins… the average player doing explorable mode dungeons are doing them in a little over an hour… So let’s say that’s a 50 min difference… so that’s an hour and a half of someone stuck in a dungeon. Now equate wipes… That’s easily a 2 – 3 hour run trying to figure out mechanics.

Jasher.6580:

Currently a fast run with a good group doing everything flawlessly is between 20-25 mins… the average player doing explorable mode dungeons are doing them in a little over an hour… So let’s say that’s a 50 min difference… so that’s an hour and a half of someone stuck in a dungeon. Now equate wipes… That’s easily a 2 – 3 hour run trying to figure out mechanics.

you aren’t comparing the right numbers, any group doing a dungeon for the first time will probably take over an hour

you can’t compare a group doing everything flawlessly to a pug doing it for the first time

I’m not sure about everyone else, but it’s my experience that dungeons might take 30-40 minutes the first time through but after that my static group easily clears dungeons in an average of 25 minutes. We consistently ‘beat the clock’ and end up getting punished for it.
While I can understand dungeons taking 30+ minutes for a PUG, my guild and I are very cohesive in our exploration of content and learn it rather quickly (Well our GM seems to notice everything and then relay info for everyone) and we get very efficient after 1 or 2 runs of a dungeon.
Our current solution is to literally AFK for 5-10 minutes prior to killing the last boss of any given dungeon. Ranger will grade papers and I will study for an exam etc.
I just want to double check if that will solve our issue of perma-DR?

I still don’t understand why you’re limiting peoples ability to grind dungeons in succession. If they want to grind the same dungeon for hours, how is it hurting you? By having the DR system you’re limiting the amount of time people at the “endgame” will spend on this game. I just don’t understand. I for one have gotten a total of 90 tokens from 6 runs on Arah. Spending on average 2 hours to clear each run in arah and having such a minute reward is demoralizing to keep playing this game, and personally am done with this game.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/3-Man-Guild-Run-Ascalonian-Catacombs-Explorable/first#post273867

Need I say more ? 3 people completing in almost 30 min, imagine 5.
This is no exploiting and ran like anet wants it to be ran.\

So basically, if this guild actually tries to be anymore efficient, aka ADD A PLAYER OR TWO ? Then they get penalized for being good ? GJ, proud of the way devs think.

Takato.4976:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/3-Man-Guild-Run-Ascalonian-Catacombs-Explorable/first#post273867

Need I say more ? 3 people completing in almost 30 min, imagine 5.
This is no exploiting and ran like anet wants it to be ran.\

So basically, if this guild actually tries to be anymore efficient, aka ADD A PLAYER OR TWO ? Then they get penalized for being good ? GJ, proud of the way devs think.

I’m also proud of the way you didn’t read the thread

(Supreme from another thread) This is the sequence of token I received for completing Arah(warden path) 30-10-10-30-5-10.

That’s wierd, when I do it 30 + 10 + 10 + 30 + 5 + 10 = 95!

How is the current system (bugs aside, that’s been acknowledged numerous times and a fix is coming we’re told) stopping you from grinding dungeons in succession? Once it’s fully in place, it may diminish the rewards a bit if you’re too fast, but let’s consider the alternative:
wake up mid morning in the AM, HMM I WANNA DO ME A DUNGEON!!!
“HEY GUYS LFG AWESOME DUNGEON!”
receive/accept invite – do dungeon, collect yourself 60 badges.
“HEY GUYS LETS DO THAT AGAIN!!!”
This instance resets in 23 hours, 28 minutes, 32 seconds.

Is that the system you’d prefer? And maybe while we’re at it we can cap the number of badges you can obtain weekly too. The current and even previous systems were more generous and better than other games. Shush up before you get that put into this one.

edit: couldnt quote properly sorry

You have concerns and questions, which is why I am answering them to the best of my ability without divulging the full mechanics of our DR system.

And therein lies the problem. ANet introduced a very technical system that artificially imposes restrictions on players at the expense of their fun and offers no numerical data to explain it.

It is also very clear why ANet doesn’t want to divulge the mechanics of the system, because if people knew the specific timeframes that trigger DR, players could again maximize their playing time by clearing dungeons at a pace that is beneficial to them. But that doesn’t seem to concern ANet. All ANet seems to care about is what they think is best, not what is best for the players.

It makes no sense to artificially impose these restrictions on players who are playing the game by the rules in conjunction with the design of the dungeons. If players are able to learn the mechanics, come up with solid group dynamics and combination of skills, that make them more efficient, they should not be punished for it. That is simply punishing people for being good, not exploiting the system. If ANet doesn’t like that people are clearing the content at a pace that is faster than they like, then so be it, but at least have the respect for the community and admit the true reasons for the change, as opposed to offering up vague responses that are clearly dancing around the truth.

Even though I think the change is flat out stupid in terms of a design stance, stop giving us the political answer and just be honest with us, it will go a long way.

afflaq.3947:

(Supreme from another thread) This is the sequence of token I received for completing Arah(warden path) 30-10-10-30-5-10.

That’s wierd, when I do it 30 + 10 + 10 + 30 + 5 + 10 = 95!

How is the current system (bugs aside, that’s been acknowledged numerous times and a fix is coming we’re told) stopping you from grinding dungeons in succession? Once it’s fully in place, it may diminish the rewards a bit if you’re too fast, but let’s consider the alternative:
wake up mid morning in the AM, HMM I WANNA DO ME A DUNGEON!!!
“HEY GUYS LFG AWESOME DUNGEON!”
receive/accept invite – do dungeon, collect yourself 60 badges.
“HEY GUYS LETS DO THAT AGAIN!!!”
This instance resets in 23 hours, 28 minutes, 32 seconds.

Is that the system you’d prefer? And maybe while we’re at it we can cap the number of badges you can obtain weekly too. The current and even previous systems were more generous and better than other games. Shush up before you get that put into this one.

edit: couldnt quote properly sorry

I dont want instance lock outs. i just want the systems they in place to work. is that so much to ask for?

Geekcheck.3407:

You have concerns and questions, which is why I am answering them to the best of my ability without divulging the full mechanics of our DR system.

And therein lies the problem. ANet introduced a very technical system that artificially imposes restrictions on players at the expense of their fun and offers no numerical data to explain it.

It is also very clear why ANet doesn’t want to divulge the mechanics of the system, because if people knew the specific timeframes that trigger DR, players could again maximize their playing time by clearing dungeons at a pace that is beneficial to them. But that doesn’t seem to concern ANet. All ANet seems to care about is what they think is bets, not what is bet for the players.

It makes no sense to artificially impose these restrictions on players who are playing the game by the rules in conjunction with the design of the dungeons. If players are able to learn the mechanics, come up with solid group dynamics and combination of skills, that make them more efficient, they should not be punished for it. That is simply punishing people for being good, not exploiting the system. If ANet doesn’t like that people are clearing the content at a pace that is faster than they like, then so be it, but at least have the respect for the community and admit the true reasons for the change, as opposed to offering up vague responses that are clearly dancing around the truth.

Even though I think the change is flat out stupid in terms of a design stance, stop giving us the political answer and just be honest with us, it will go a long way.

Jon made a post above this which states their intentions clearly.

ref.8196:

Takato.4976:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/3-Man-Guild-Run-Ascalonian-Catacombs-Explorable/first#post273867

Need I say more ? 3 people completing in almost 30 min, imagine 5.
This is no exploiting and ran like anet wants it to be ran.\

So basically, if this guild actually tries to be anymore efficient, aka ADD A PLAYER OR TWO ? Then they get penalized for being good ? GJ, proud of the way devs think.

I’m also proud of the way you didn’t read the thread

Yeah good thing I don’t know there’s a global DR in which, no matter which path or dungeon you pick, if you run things under 30min often you will eventually be penalized.

Are YOU reading this thread ?

Spawn.7014:

afflaq.3947:

(Supreme from another thread) This is the sequence of token I received for completing Arah(warden path) 30-10-10-30-5-10.

That’s wierd, when I do it 30 + 10 + 10 + 30 + 5 + 10 = 95!

How is the current system (bugs aside, that’s been acknowledged numerous times and a fix is coming we’re told) stopping you from grinding dungeons in succession? Once it’s fully in place, it may diminish the rewards a bit if you’re too fast, but let’s consider the alternative:
wake up mid morning in the AM, HMM I WANNA DO ME A DUNGEON!!!
“HEY GUYS LFG AWESOME DUNGEON!”
receive/accept invite – do dungeon, collect yourself 60 badges.
“HEY GUYS LETS DO THAT AGAIN!!!”
This instance resets in 23 hours, 28 minutes, 32 seconds.

Is that the system you’d prefer? And maybe while we’re at it we can cap the number of badges you can obtain weekly too. The current and even previous systems were more generous and better than other games. Shush up before you get that put into this one.

edit: couldnt quote properly sorry

I dont want instance lock outs. i just want the systems they in place to work. is that so much to ask for?

Not at all, and I want it to work too – I randomly got 45 badges last night when everyone else in my group who’d been together for all 3 paths of CoF got 60, regardless 165 was alot more than I’d have gotten had I done 3 magg runs pre-patch, so I was fine with it. It’s also been acknowledged that there’s a bug in it that’s being worked on, another 9048589549084 threads whining about how it sucks isn’t necessary or constructive. If it was a scenario of no response or acknowledgement of a problem, I could understand the hundreds of threads about it, but it’s been both acknowledged and responded to…multiple times.

Takato.4976:

ref.8196:

Takato.4976:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/3-Man-Guild-Run-Ascalonian-Catacombs-Explorable/first#post273867

Need I say more ? 3 people completing in almost 30 min, imagine 5.
This is no exploiting and ran like anet wants it to be ran.\

So basically, if this guild actually tries to be anymore efficient, aka ADD A PLAYER OR TWO ? Then they get penalized for being good ? GJ, proud of the way devs think.

I’m also proud of the way you didn’t read the thread

Yeah good thing I don’t know there’s a global DR in which, no matter which path or dungeon you pick, if you run things under 30min often you will eventually be penalized.

Are YOU reading this thread ?

At the moment that is true, I think everyone knows that, and it is also bugged. But read Jon’s post above?

afflaq.3947:

wake up mid morning in the AM, HMM I WANNA DO ME A DUNGEON!!!
“HEY GUYS LFG AWESOME DUNGEON!”
receive/accept invite – do dungeon, collect yourself 60 badges.
“HEY GUYS LETS DO THAT AGAIN!!!”
This instance resets in 23 hours, 28 minutes, 32 seconds.

Is that the system you’d prefer? And maybe while we’re at it we can cap the number of badges you can obtain weekly too. The current and even previous systems were more generous and better than other games. Shush up before you get that put into this one.

I would take lockouts over the system in place right now, as it currently works. I would be able to get 480 tokens a day, 60 from each dungeon, and I would be immensely happy with that. As it stands now I can get 155.

ref.8196:

Jon made a post above this which states their intentions clearly.

Their intentions are not what’s in-game right now.

Krazed.7458:

afflaq.3947:

wake up mid morning in the AM, HMM I WANNA DO ME A DUNGEON!!!
“HEY GUYS LFG AWESOME DUNGEON!”
receive/accept invite – do dungeon, collect yourself 60 badges.
“HEY GUYS LETS DO THAT AGAIN!!!”
This instance resets in 23 hours, 28 minutes, 32 seconds.

Is that the system you’d prefer? And maybe while we’re at it we can cap the number of badges you can obtain weekly too. The current and even previous systems were more generous and better than other games. Shush up before you get that put into this one.

I would take lockouts over the system in place right now, as it currently works. I would be able to get 480 tokens a day, 60 from each dungeon, and I would be immensely happy with that. As it stands now I can get 155.

ref.8196:

Jon made a post above this which states their intentions clearly.

Their intentions are not what’s in-game right now.

Of course it’s not, they are just saying what they are aiming for. They are currently fixing what’s in game now.

I would rather have a 24 hour reset than the system that is here now. The system that is in place now is flawed and until it is fixed I can not find myself logging in. I will play something else till then.

Also I am curious why there is not a PTR. I tried to find some info for it, but I do not see any. Would be allot easier to have the masses test things before they come out because I do not think in house works.

Most games don’t have a PTR AT launch. Also, you’re all nuts if you think a lockout system is better than this. You’re assuming a lockout system would be bug free. What would you do if the lockout system bugged out and wouldn’t let you in every couple of days? The issue is not the system.

Assumptions are the mother of all “mistakes”. Look we can debate about should and should not’s or have and have not’s or what would be or could be. All that I was stating is that the system IS flawed.

As far as your questions about a lockout timer and not being let into a dungeon every few days from being bugged. Guess what, I have not ran a dungeon in over 5 days so how is that any diff than now!

aleiro.8521:

Docmandu.2914:

I’m not a dungeon runner.. have only done 2 dungeons since headstart.. but this really irks me.. I really don’t get why this artifical barrier is needed. Seems a bit like the dungeon lockouts in other MMOs, which I also don’t get.

Good thing I’m not really that interested in doing dungeons all the time.. I just hope some of these weird mechanics don’t get added to WvW… “whoops sorry, you can’t attack this keep, since you attacked it 30 minutes ago!”

Not to mention the fact that it used to take people 3 days of speed running to get a full set of the best armor in the game. The fact that the runs were done using exploits.
The amount of money being made by speed running these dungeons was so big that the in game money devaluated to an insane amount. If you check the gem prices of 1 week ago it was 36 gems/10s now it is 25 gems/10s. That means that in game money devaluated about 30%. Regardless that it is fake money, excessive amounts of gold at this point will destroy the economy. Not to mention gold farmers for RMT companies were doing this….etc etc etc. They are keeping the game healthy for the rest of us so stop complaining!

So? Fix the exploits.. fix the bot issue… secure the client so cheating/flyhacking/teleporting isn’t possible.. actually put security in the client.. but don’t punish normal players.
If a normal player feels like running dungeons 24/7 3 days in a row.. I think he deserves a medal (or a visit to the shrink)

As for the gold sellers.. instead of fixing the dungeons.. maybe they should implement some decent spam filters in the chat / mail system and catch those sellers.. or better yet.. catch the people buying the gold from them… people will think twice when buying gold from those shops if they risk loosing their account.

Bottom line.. if the dungeon DR fix is to get rid of the bots/RMT companies.. then it was a terrible idea…

What about if you get disconnected after 3 hours doing dungeon (not 30 minutes) without posibility to go back with your party? You screwed yourself and your party. It’s not 1 or 45 tokens, or 60. It’s F time waste for nothing – 0 tokens. Why you can’t replace offline party member with new one to finish dungeon??? What about bugged dungeons where people can’t enter?

I don’t care about gear and tokens, I want to have fun. You just killed it. You released unfinished and untested game. Thanks and goodluck with all mess you made.

afflaq.3947:

Most games don’t have a PTR AT launch. Also, you’re all nuts if you think a lockout system is better than this. You’re assuming a lockout system would be bug free. What would you do if the lockout system bugged out and wouldn’t let you in every couple of days? The issue is not the system.

So your argument is that ANet is so incompetent they couldn’t code a lockout system correctly? That’s disturbing.

JonPeters.5630:

rickets.1386:

JonPeters.5630:

Plain and simple this system is a safety net for stopping crazy farming when people find exploits that make each run super fast. We are also addressing those loopholes, but that takes time and new ones might always be discovered. If you and your group do the dungeons without skipping large sections and run different chains this system shoul(bugs aside) never impact you.

Addendum for clarity, super fast means < 30 minutes, and even then you must hit that speed multiple times in a row before you start seeing any impact.

Thanks for the reply Jon, and thanks for giving a time. However, my group just did a legit maggs run and a legit AC path 2 run in 25 minutes each. Of course with the bug we all got different rewards but i will post that in the proper forum with times.

They were not death free runs and we didn’t feel like we did them as fast as we could have, so when we bring our “A” game we will basically be waiting in front of the last boss room for 10 minutes to make sure we get full rewards….not fun. But, I guess if the system starts to work like you hope and it takes multiple sub 30 minute runs in a row we should be fine.

I will also be posting links to the 2 runs we just did(as soon as they are uploaded) to prove we did them legit.

Thanks and i hope a fix is on its way soon.

Thank you this is excellent info. We would like dungeons to be legit hard enough to take closer to 45 mins but if we can’t accomplish that goal we can look at the speed clear times from non exploiters and easily adjust the system. The goal is that hardcore farmers don’t even see this thing but only exploiters. We will keep working towards that goal.

Jon

Here’s the link to our AC run, obviously the video was sped up. We started the video when you pick your path. PoV of my guardian guildmate.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnXJa0Y0m38
EDIT: Link is not working properly, You have to copy paste.

Also, here is our Token and time results from our runs last night. I will post the first maggs run when its uploaded. 3rd maggs run was the same as the first so no video.

Run 1: CoF: Maggs: Start time: 9:23pm: End time: 9:48pm
Guardian: 60
Warrior: 45
Necro: 45
Mesmer: 45
Ele: 45

Run 2: AC path 2: Start time: 9:59pm: End time: 10:23pm
Guardian: 60
Warrior: 30
Necro: 30
Mesmer: 30
Ele: 30

And just to see what happened we did maggs again.
Run 3: CoF Maggs: Start time: 10:26pm: End time: 10:46pm
Guardian: 20
Warrior: 5
Necro: 5
Mesmer: 5
Ele: 5

I feel the guardian got the correct rewards, and thats it.

Thanks for your continued effort to fix this issue.

ref.8196:

Oh god, you are still going on about it.

Wait for the bug fix, then see if the DR really does affect you, then complain that you are having trouble grinding gold.

Just a question though, why do you people want to grind these dungeons so much?

I was wondering the same. I even linked the dev post where he clearly invited the community to wait the fix and admitting the reward system is heavily malfunctioning.
Still people is having problem to just read, and prefer to be a bait wasting time with an irregular reward. Hopeless
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Token-number-Not-getting-60-for-every-first-path/page/6#post269289

Stop to play dungeons until fixed!!!!!!!!