Guild Wars 2

This thread: http://i.imgur.com/6pz2izk.gif

TheMaskedParadigm.3629:

This thread: http://i.imgur.com/6pz2izk.gif

Gif =stolen

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

To sum what has happened so far: Guang made a claim about engineers and provided some math and a sample dps rotation video using his build, but did not provide a full party speed run example.

Actually he made a claim about engineers and didn’t provide anything at all.

Guang’s view on this thread: http://i.imgur.com/wloQx.gif

hendo.1940:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

To sum what has happened so far: Guang made a claim about engineers and provided some math and a sample dps rotation video using his build, but did not provide a full party speed run example.

Actually he made a claim about engineers and didn’t provide anything at all.

Neither did you so i guess that makes us even.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

hendo.1940:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

To sum what has happened so far: Guang made a claim about engineers and provided some math and a sample dps rotation video using his build, but did not provide a full party speed run example.

Actually he made a claim about engineers and didn’t provide anything at all.

Neither did you so i guess that makes us even.

The burden of proof lies with the person making the claim, mister.

hendo.1940:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

To sum what has happened so far: Guang made a claim about engineers and provided some math and a sample dps rotation video using his build, but did not provide a full party speed run example.

Actually he made a claim about engineers and didn’t provide anything at all.

You’re correct. He didn’t provide either here, but both were subsequently linked in this thread. Apologies for being misleading.

If your arguments are going to fall down to the level of “no u” then I honestly might as well just report the thread; this whole topic took a massive nose dive with both sides making completely idiotic posts.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

hendo.1940:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

To sum what has happened so far: Guang made a claim about engineers and provided some math and a sample dps rotation video using his build, but did not provide a full party speed run example.

Actually he made a claim about engineers and didn’t provide anything at all.

Neither did you so i guess that makes us even.

I and others kinda provided arguments why your composition is kitten, didn’t we?

However, a path 2 “speedrun” video is in the making, takes about 4 hours to get online, though. Given, it went terrible, that’s to a high extend caused by the crappy setup. However, since we stacked might and fury, you can see how kittenty the contribution of an engineer is in a speedrun anyway.

From a bystander’s point of view, this is devolving into an endless game of tug-o’-war. I suppose it will be until Guang presents evidence, and I honestly doubt he will.

Back to lurking.

hendo.1940:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

hendo.1940:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

To sum what has happened so far: Guang made a claim about engineers and provided some math and a sample dps rotation video using his build, but did not provide a full party speed run example.

Actually he made a claim about engineers and didn’t provide anything at all.

Neither did you so i guess that makes us even.

I and others kinda provided arguments why your composition is kitten, didn’t we?

However, a path 2 “speedrun” video is in the making, takes about 4 hours to get online, though. Given, it went terrible, that’s to a high extend caused by the crappy setup. However, since we stacked might and fury, you can see how kittenty the contribution of an engineer is in a speedrun anyway.

YES! Thank you so much. Now we’re getting somewhere!

I think what would work best, and this is just my opinion as a third party observer:

I think that both sides should make a video of a speedrun. Guanglai with his ideal party setup, and one volunteer from the speedrunning community using their ideal setup.

Here’s how I’d do it. Set a time limit on the production of this video. Like, you have 1 week to make it. I think Arah P2 was generally agreed upon, and I’m sure they could choose restricted or not. The videos are submitted privately to an impartial third party who will release the video links at the same time.

Just my thought.

What if all of this is just an elaborate troll attempt to get the people of RT to run a suboptimal arah run? O_O

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ZqtLh2hyPrg/T6gzHk9_FhI/AAAAAAAAAPI/6jBskWYKiZo/s1600/conspiracy-keanu-original-expression.jpg

We run sub optimal arah runs all the time. Most players in rT solo/pug or play how we want. Our record runs are a different story.

DigitalKirin.9714:

I think what would work best, and this is just my opinion as a third party observer:

I think that both sides should make a video of a speedrun. Guanglai with his ideal party setup, and one volunteer from the speedrunning community using their ideal setup.

Here’s how I’d do it. Set a time limit on the production of this video. Like, you have 1 week to make it. I think Arah P2 was generally agreed upon, and I’m sure they could choose restricted or not. The videos are submitted privately to an impartial third party who will release the video links at the same time.

Just my thought.

Well, the optimum guangs composition can get out of arah path 2 is like a 13-14 minutes run. Thats about as fast as an arah duo of an elementalist and a warrior, striving for a great time. It’s about 4 minutes slower than what a proper setup is capable of.

hendo.1940:

Well, the optimum guangs composition can get out of arah path 2 is like a 13-14 minutes run. Thats about as fast as an arah duo of an elementalist and a warrior, striving for a great time. It’s about 4 minutes slower than what a proper setup is capable of.

Well, my thought is that both sides should bring video evidence. In your mind, the answer is a foregone conclusion, and in Guanglai’s mind, the answer is a foregone conclusion. The resolution is simply to put the video evidence out there. No extenuating circumstances, no excuses once the videos are released.

You know whats going to happen when we release the video dont you?

DigitalKirin.9714:

hendo.1940:

Well, the optimum guangs composition can get out of arah path 2 is like a 13-14 minutes run. Thats about as fast as an arah duo of an elementalist and a warrior, striving for a great time. It’s about 4 minutes slower than what a proper setup is capable of.

Well, my thought is that both sides should bring video evidence. In your mind, the answer is a foregone conclusion, and in Guanglai’s mind, the answer is a foregone conclusion. The resolution is simply to put the video evidence out there. No extenuating circumstances, no excuses once the videos are released.

Best evidence that engis do not have their place in a speedrun? We are not using them.

You may say that it is cyclical logic, but look closely: we strive to claim the highest number of speed records. Sure some of us do not appreciate Guang, but the truth is that we do not care at all. If we were to hear about a way to be faster and claim more records, we would use it!!

spoj.9672:

You know whats going to happen when we release the video dont you?

Inb4 we botched it and were steamrolled by aboms.

Darox.8069:

You may say that it is cyclical logic, but look closely: we strive to claim the highest number of speed records. Sure some of us do not appreciate Guang, but the truth is that we do not care at all. If we were to hear about a way to be faster and claim more records, we would use it!!

Fair enough. I just felt like this could be a way that both sides could agree upon a course of action, but if no course is desired, not my place to pursue.

DigitalKirin.9714:

Darox.8069:

You may say that it is cyclical logic, but look closely: we strive to claim the highest number of speed records. Sure some of us do not appreciate Guang, but the truth is that we do not care at all. If we were to hear about a way to be faster and claim more records, we would use it!!

Fair enough. I just felt like this could be a way that both sides could agree upon a course of action, but if no course is desired, not my place to pursue.

The idea is great, we already suggested that various times aswell.

The only problem is, guang will not do anything.

spoj.9672:

You know whats going to happen when we release the video dont you?

This so much. In my eyes as long as he doesnt do it himself he can always say “you didnt do it properly” and be somewhat valid by saying that.

Even in the video he posted he said he was just " And it’s not a minmaxed rotation really, it’s just “hey check out my buttons” sorta deal." ~ stolen from other forums

Why doesnt he show a perfected or a more ideal rotation video?

Just noticed the title of thread is “Bess Class”

I mean why does the burden of proof lie on the people who set the standard instead of the person making the claim?

FenrirSlakt.3692:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

hendo.1940:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

To sum what has happened so far: Guang made a claim about engineers and provided some math and a sample dps rotation video using his build, but did not provide a full party speed run example.

Actually he made a claim about engineers and didn’t provide anything at all.

Neither did you so i guess that makes us even.

The burden of proof lies with the person making the claim, mister.

They’re the ones “claiming” it doesn’t work. It goes both ways. I’ve provided the theory, they’re the ones claiming it doesn’t work in practice. If that’s their stance they should do something to prove it. If they want to argue about the theory they can do that too but I haven’t seen much effort to do so other than the one post by spoj about the comp not having enough DPS which I think we can all agree isn’t true.

Everyone harps at me to make videos or duel them or whatever inane bullkitten they can think of whenever some random nobody disagrees with me, I honestly don’t care enough. It’s not my mission to prove every random bad on the Internet wrong, I just want to burn downtime while at work. I literally have no idea rT is other than that they’re some random guild associated with one guy who likes to whine a lot, that’s not really enough incentive to make me care about proving them wrong one way or another.

What I like about this guy is that he is consistent in his dishonesty and he does not go half way!

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

FenrirSlakt.3692:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

hendo.1940:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

To sum what has happened so far: Guang made a claim about engineers and provided some math and a sample dps rotation video using his build, but did not provide a full party speed run example.

Actually he made a claim about engineers and didn’t provide anything at all.

Neither did you so i guess that makes us even.

The burden of proof lies with the person making the claim, mister.

They’re the ones “claiming” it doesn’t work. It goes both ways. I’ve provided the theory, they’re the ones claiming it doesn’t work in practice. If that’s their stance they should do something to prove it. If they want to argue about the theory they can do that too but I haven’t seen much effort to do so other than the one post by spoj about the comp not having enough DPS which I think we can all agree isn’t true.

Everyone harps at me to make videos or duel them or whatever inane bullkitten they can think of whenever some random nobody disagrees with me, I honestly don’t care enough. It’s not my mission to prove every random bad on the Internet wrong, I just want to burn downtime while at work. I literally have no idea rT is other than that they’re some random guild associated with one guy who likes to whine a lot, that’s not really enough incentive to make me care about proving them wrong one way or another.

you are just really really sad.

and if you dont care enough then do us all a favor and stop being stupid and stop throwing around random insults.
everyone knows you are not a good player and everyone knows your calculations are far away from reality.
once again i can only suggest you should go and play the game.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

They’re the ones “claiming” it doesn’t work. It goes both ways. I’ve provided the theory, they’re the ones claiming it doesn’t work in practice. If that’s their stance they should do something to prove it. If they want to argue about the theory they can do that too but I haven’t seen much effort to do so other than the one post by spoj about the comp not having enough DPS which I think we can all agree isn’t true.

Everyone harps at me to make videos or duel them or whatever inane bullkitten they can think of whenever some random nobody disagrees with me, I honestly don’t care enough. It’s not my mission to prove every random bad on the Internet wrong, I just want to burn downtime while at work. I literally have no idea rT is other than that they’re some random guild associated with one guy who likes to whine a lot, that’s not really enough incentive to make me care about proving them wrong one way or another.

translation : I am trolling hard and seeing how long I can keep it up.
————-

Engis can turn into God 2mrw and I wouldnt attribute it to you. Why? Havent seen any detailed info to back up your claims and rather than taking the “high” road and give some sort of scientific proof you say “lol prove me wrong”.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

They’re the ones “claiming” it doesn’t work. It goes both ways. I’ve provided the theory, they’re the ones claiming it doesn’t work in practice. If that’s their stance they should do something to prove it.

Problem with your theory is that you’ve only provided hypothesis and not added any experimentation with data to back it up. It doesn’t go both ways, the burden of demonstrating your hypothesis correct comes down to the side arguing for it, not the side arguing against it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophic_burden_of_proof#Holder_of_the_burden

You say Engineers can make speedruns better. Prove it. Proof goes beyond paper and requires actual experimentation and data.

NoTrigger.8396:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

FenrirSlakt.3692:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

hendo.1940:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

To sum what has happened so far: Guang made a claim about engineers and provided some math and a sample dps rotation video using his build, but did not provide a full party speed run example.

Actually he made a claim about engineers and didn’t provide anything at all.

Neither did you so i guess that makes us even.

The burden of proof lies with the person making the claim, mister.

They’re the ones “claiming” it doesn’t work. It goes both ways. I’ve provided the theory, they’re the ones claiming it doesn’t work in practice. If that’s their stance they should do something to prove it. If they want to argue about the theory they can do that too but I haven’t seen much effort to do so other than the one post by spoj about the comp not having enough DPS which I think we can all agree isn’t true.

Everyone harps at me to make videos or duel them or whatever inane bullkitten they can think of whenever some random nobody disagrees with me, I honestly don’t care enough. It’s not my mission to prove every random bad on the Internet wrong, I just want to burn downtime while at work. I literally have no idea rT is other than that they’re some random guild associated with one guy who likes to whine a lot, that’s not really enough incentive to make me care about proving them wrong one way or another.

you are just really really sad.

and if you dont care enough then do us all a favor and stop being stupid and stop throwing around random insults.
everyone knows you are not a good player and everyone knows your calculations are far away from reality.
once again i can only suggest you should go and play the game.

The irony of this post is not lost on me. Good one.

DigitalKirin.9714:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

They’re the ones “claiming” it doesn’t work. It goes both ways. I’ve provided the theory, they’re the ones claiming it doesn’t work in practice. If that’s their stance they should do something to prove it.

Problem with your theory is that you’ve only provided hypothesis and not added any experimentation with data to back it up. It doesn’t go both ways, the burden of demonstrating your hypothesis correct comes down to the side arguing for it, not the side arguing against it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophic_burden_of_proof#Holder_of_the_burden

You say Engineers can make speedruns better. Prove it. Proof goes beyond paper and requires actual experimentation and data.

So if they’re claiming “engineers are bad” the burden of proof is on them. You can frame it as “Guang claims engies are good so he should prove it” or “rT claims engies are bad so they should prove it.”

Either way if we’re looking at who’s contributed more support for their argument, I’d say I’ve the clear of it. There’s like 5 different rT members (or possibly the same guy under 5 different accounts) posting in this thread and not one of them has given a colorable reason why engies are anything other than what I claim they are. I’d say that’s plenty good for burden of proof.

Much as I enjoy a good theoryfight this is literally just name-calling for almost ten pages. Let’s see something concrete.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

So if they’re claiming “engineers are bad” the burden of proof is on them. You can frame it as “Guang claims engies are good so he should prove it” or “rT claims engies are bad so they should prove it.”

No. The status quo is what you’re arguing against. This may include, but is not limited to rT members. Right now the overall speedrun mindset is that Engineers have no place there. They don’t need to prove the status quo, it’s already there. You need to prove that there is something different/better when you use engineer.

You need to Hypothesize (you’ve done this part), experiment/collect data, and provide an appropriate conclusion based on the collected data. You’ve not done the latter parts.

We never said engis are bad. We said they have no place in a speedrun (for records).

Personally I dont care what the rT guys say.

Youre saying engi’s are baller.

Ok how? Gimme some numbers, a build, a rotation.

I have an engi gathering dust I would love to carry him some more than my ele or guard. Gimme something so I can tell my guild mates “Here is Guang’s proof, numbers, build, rotation etc. Get with the times Engi = supermeta”

Or you know what? Ignore the rT guys! There are people who want to see what you have come up with. kitten or not it is something to look at. Youre so stuck on arguing with em that you cant properly display your theory and supporting facts.

This insnt rT asking “How are engi’s good?” This is some random skrublord who wants to use his engi in SC’s effectively. Bloody enlighten me! I cant be the only “lurker” reading this crap wondering what the details of your theory are.

Best class for fractals and dungeons is ele.
/thread

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

FenrirSlakt.3692:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

hendo.1940:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

To sum what has happened so far: Guang made a claim about engineers and provided some math and a sample dps rotation video using his build, but did not provide a full party speed run example.

Actually he made a claim about engineers and didn’t provide anything at all.

Neither did you so i guess that makes us even.

The burden of proof lies with the person making the claim, mister.

They’re the ones “claiming” it doesn’t work. It goes both ways. I’ve provided the theory, they’re the ones claiming it doesn’t work in practice.

Please don’t try to turn it around like this.
A theory is not proof; it’s a theory. Only a part of the scientific method.
It should go as it follows.

• Question – What’s the most efficient team comp for Arah P2, time-wise?

• Hypothesis – Guang hypothetised that A, B, C, X and Y should be able to run Arah P2 more efficiently than the others.

• Prediction – If Guang is correct, then A, B, C, X and Y should be able to finish said dungeon path faster than other team comps, given that they wear Z gear and T traits.. This prediction is backed up by etcetc.

This is where we’re stuck

• Experiment – Guang proceded to run Arah P2 using the specified team comp, with the specified gear and traits. The results showed that this team comp can clear this path in XX minutes and XX seconds.
• Analysis – In comparison to the speedclear times of other team comps, we are led to believe that this team comp is optimal/suboptimal.

Then the experiment is to be replicated over and over to make sure that the first conclusion wasn’t erroneously obtained.

DonQuack.9025:

Personally I dont care what the rT guys say.

Youre saying engi’s are baller.

Ok how? Gimme some numbers, a build, a rotation.

I have an engi gathering dust I would love to carry him some more than my ele or guard. Gimme something so I can tell my guild mates “Here is Guang’s proof, numbers, build, rotation etc. Get with the times Engi = supermeta”

Or you know what? Ignore the rT guys! There are people who want to see what you have come up with. kitten or not it is something to look at. Youre so stuck on arguing with em that you cant properly display your theory and supporting facts.

This insnt rT asking “How are engi’s good?” This is some random skrublord who wants to use his engi in SC’s effectively. Bloody enlighten me! I cant be the only “lurker” reading this crap wondering what the details of your theory are.

I can accept that but keep in mind that I don’t really play this game that much anymore, it’d be a special occasion for me to get motivated enough to make a pug video, much less find four other guys (most of my friends quit a while ago) to do a speedclear with. I can tell you what I’ve been telling everyone else though:

1) The “engie is all condition damage so not viable in zerk meta” thing is an exaggeration. Engie stacks about 15 bleeds all together and those are bleeds with no condition damage investment other than the 300 from traits + whatever you’re getting from might. At 25 might this is equal to 875 CDmg which adds up to 1175 CDmg = about 100 damage per tick. 15 stacks of bleed is thus equal to 1500 bleed damage per second. That’s a lot, sure but engie does just fine with direct DPS (you can see the video I uploaded as proof), so it’s less of a “engie DPS is all bleeds” deal and more of a “engie gets a lot of bleed as extra damage on top of what they deal directly.” situation.

2) Vuln stacking does in fact make a difference. rT/others tend to dismiss it with “we get plenty of vuln anyway” but they’re ignoring the facts that 1) you’re not capped at vuln for most of the fights, even if they’re short, since Defiant makes burst vuln applications very short (something like Crushing Blow only lasts 4 seconds, for example, which is a fair bit shorter than most fights last even with FGS). Certain tricks can get you lots of vuln (i.e. Ele with Weak Spot using Fiery Rush) but even then there’s the fact that the ele is now forced to invest points into Air (which is sort of a bad trait line to go that far into despite being Precision and Ferocity) and also the fact that you’re relying on your primary burst damage skill to apply the vuln needed for it to maximize damage; by the time you have 25 stacks of vuln from it, you’re already halfway through the Fiery Rush and have lost a significant amount of potential damage.

3) Engies actually have very good burst DPS. This is another reason why I made the “engie DPS rotation” video, to demonstrate this. It seems there is a common myth going around that “engie does crap DPS in speedruns because they don’t do anything until their bleed stacks build up”, when it’s actually the other way around. It’s the same deal as with mesmers and the “mesmers don’t get damage until all three phantasms are up” myth, which again ignores the fact that you’re getting a big burst of damage from having three phantasms appearing and unloading their skills at once.

And that’s pretty much the gist of it. Engie isn’t a class that you just toss randomly into a group that already has four other guys already specced to stack vuln and might, it’s when you drop them into said group and then take out the other vuln/might guys and replace them with DPS guys is when you really see the difference. This may account for any issues rT was having, but again I can’t comment on that because thus far they’ve said literally nothing constructive about what they actually did in said run, if they actually did it at all..

DonQuack.9025:

Personally I dont care what the rT guys say.

Youre saying engi’s are baller.

Ok how? Gimme some numbers, a build, a rotation.

I have an engi gathering dust I would love to carry him some more than my ele or guard. Gimme something so I can tell my guild mates “Here is Guang’s proof, numbers, build, rotation etc. Get with the times Engi = supermeta”

Or you know what? Ignore the rT guys! There are people who want to see what you have come up with. kitten or not it is something to look at. Youre so stuck on arguing with em that you cant properly display your theory and supporting facts.

This insnt rT asking “How are engi’s good?” This is some random skrublord who wants to use his engi in SC’s effectively. Bloody enlighten me! I cant be the only “lurker” reading this crap wondering what the details of your theory are.

The thing is I have read Guang’s thread and his posts on the DnT forum. I am well aware of all his theory and I could summarise it here for you, objectively. I would have to differentiate between two things though: there is the build/rotation he advises for casual running, and the speedrun part. I think we should disregard anything not related to speedruns because it is really a matter of environment. So alright, let’s assume he would go for scholars instead of travelers runes, full zerker instead of giver’s, and proper sigils.

Of course, I am going to assume he would go for Explosive powder (+10% dmg on explosions) rather than Short fuse (-20% cd on grenades).

Here is Guang ideal burst rotation:

BOB: 603 + 200
Fire Bomb: 286
Grenade Barrage: 1025 + 200
Throw Mine: 334
Mine Field: 1249 + 200 + 200
Jump Shot: 1044
Blunderbuss: 618
Shrapnel Grenade: 591
Freeze Grenade: 538

The numbers are unscaled lvl 80 damage figures, according to him, and the +200 represent Static Discharge procs. All figures come from Guang.

Then he proceeds to apply a scaling of his own to provide a dps figure for a speedrun situation: “an effective direct DPS of 16634 with all possible buffs, for 7 seconds, after which it drops down to a more reasonable 11609 for all cooldowns averaged over an indefinite period, plus by that time you should have a good 10 or so bleeds minimum for an extra 800 or so DPS.”

In comparison, Guang proposes his numbers for the scaled burst of a warrior: 14127 DPS

Right, so this is Guang’s theory. I could be right, it could be wrong, but let’s not get into that just yet.

His theory is all about damage. From this offensive potential he concludes that engis must be valuable for speedruns.

The response that rT is trying to express, is that speedruns are not all about damage. In fact, even if I used my own findings about the engi to boost its damage higher than what Guang could come up with, it would not matter. Dub has stated it clearly: what ever the damage the engi can provide, it is a burden to the team by all practical means.

So now we can certainly discuss the damage potential of the engi, and I intend to do so, with more accurate data than what Guang uses. I dislike “kitchen theorycrafting”. If we are going to evluate this properly then we need coefficients, mechanics, cast times, and feasibility frontier. I could work on this, maybe Keyz would be interested too.

In the meantime, my opinion is that practical experience beats “kitchen theorycrafting”. If the engi ever becomes useful in speedruns it will not be thanks to the rough calculations Guang came up with. Because let’s face it, this is nothing revolutionary. What beats records is clever tactics.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I don’t really play this game that much anymore

Okay, /thread.

Arah P2 hasn’t changed since the last time I played it other than them fixing the jump-past-Lupi thing, I can comment on it just fine.

Moreover, I’d like to hear your reasoning for why the engie is a “burden” on the group when he’s boosting DPS and providing stealth for skips.

Because it’s dps isn’t close to as good as other professions, vuln stacking on engi takes quite long (and is covered on fgs fights anyway, as most professions get a vuln on crit trait for no investment). Engineers are potentially very fast runners, but that is solely based on offering all three utility spots and using executioners axe. Okay, you can change two of your utilities on the fly, but without exec axe engi is slow anyway. As for stealth, engi’s stealth is not sufficient. It takes a while to build up (especially in your composition), doesn’t last long and has a 25 seconds cooldown. If you don’t see the problem here, I’m not sure if you ever played arah. Even with the additional 5 seconds of Elexir S, it’s still not enough. Now to the vuln stacking, it isn’t even remotely close to what you want it like. Before you stacked up more than 15 vuln, bosses would have been dead already in a proper setting. You can totally take out bleeds and burn out of any assumptions and also ditch a lot of the ‘25 vuln’. It’s closer to like 10 on average.

So basically we are now at this: Engineer is average to bad at dps, provides zero reason to take over an ele. It’s slow on skips and a lot less good than thief on granting smoke fields/stealth. It basically yields nothin, another profession couldn’t do better.

And now, in the discussion, we are at following point:
- You claim engis are good for speedruns.
- We tell you why it’s not.
- Nothing constructive for three sites, would be surprised if you read our posts.
- You tell us why you think engi is good in theory.
- We tell you why engi is bad in theory and praxis.
- ???
- No profit.

Video should get up this evening, rendering the condi guard one took longer thsn expected.

Please don’t upload it. I beg you :’(

But…

Want me to cut out alphy?

Yes plox :x
Censor the part from Alphy onward or pixelate my character throughout the run please.

I want to see it! DPS engi in action gogo

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I can accept that but keep in mind that I don’t really play this game that much anymore, it’d be a special occasion for me to get motivated enough to make a pug video, much less find four other guys (most of my friends quit a while ago) to do a speedclear with.

Are you kidding right now. 16 months ago you were arguing against Strife and others that the Guardian was so much more DPS than a warrior. They said, your theory don’t seem quite right, but show us a video to compare to our video. Back then, you said I don’t have a group to do that and I don’t have time anyway. You finally did a video with pugs showing that you couldn’t do better. But you said, it was a pug group of course I couldn’t do better, but you see my damage. So strife went frame by frame to check all your dmg numbers in your video and calculated your DPS which was inferior. They finally proposed to bring you into their group to end the conversation. At that point i just let it go since this went on for a couple of weeks, but obviously you didn’t join them or you did and you couldn’t prove your point since Guardian is not better DPS then the warrior now (even if they boosted the guardian damage since then). You were never able to get a group together for a speed run, not 2 years ago and not now.

hendo.1940:

Because it’s dps isn’t close to as good as other professions, vuln stacking on engi takes quite long (and is covered on fgs fights anyway, as most professions get a vuln on crit trait for no investment). Engineers are potentially very fast runners, but that is solely based on offering all three utility spots and using executioners axe. Okay, you can change two of your utilities on the fly, but without exec axe engi is slow anyway. As for stealth, engi’s stealth is not sufficient. It takes a while to build up (especially in your composition), doesn’t last long and has a 25 seconds cooldown. If you don’t see the problem here, I’m not sure if you ever played arah. Even with the additional 5 seconds of Elexir S, it’s still not enough. Now to the vuln stacking, it isn’t even remotely close to what you want it like. Before you stacked up more than 15 vuln, bosses would have been dead already in a proper setting. You can totally take out bleeds and burn out of any assumptions and also ditch a lot of the ‘25 vuln’. It’s closer to like 10 on average.

So basically we are now at this: Engineer is average to bad at dps, provides zero reason to take over an ele. It’s slow on skips and a lot less good than thief on granting smoke fields/stealth. It basically yields nothin, another profession couldn’t do better.

And now, in the discussion, we are at following point:
- You claim engis are good for speedruns.
- We tell you why it’s not.
- Nothing constructive for three sites, would be surprised if you read our posts.
- You tell us why you think engi is good in theory.
- We tell you why engi is bad in theory and praxis.
- ???
- No profit.

Video should get up this evening, rendering the condi guard one took longer thsn expected.

Uh:

- Engie can stack like 16 vuln in 3 seconds and it just keeps rampig up from there, your comp must be godly if you can drop a boss before Grenade Barrage even hits. I’d like to see your vids of you dropping Lupi in less than a second.

- Engie stealth blasting works just fine. BOB > Smoke Bomb > Heal Turret > Magnetic Inversion > Acid Bomb gets you four blasts pretty much simultaneously and takes about 4 seconds tops to execute, which is pretty much exactly the same as what a thief would get. If you want even more stealth you can put Thumper Turret on your bar and use Rumble, you can use the toolbelt skills on Engie utilities and swap them immediately so long as you don’t use the utility itself. Either way 12 seconds of stealth is more than sufficient to get through all of Arah P2, there’s no skip there that needs any more than that except maybe the Risen after the spiders, which doesn’t even actually need stealth since you can just run past them and dodge the Deadeye shot.

- Didn’t you just agree that Engie DPS is just fine? Now you’re saying it’s bad? If personal base DPS was the only thing that mattered you wouldn’t bring a warrior either, you have to look at how much the group is dealing overall. Even without the support buffs the engie does just fine because of how many burst damage skills he has.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

- Engie stealth blasting works just fine. BOB > Smoke Bomb > Heal Turret > Magnetic Inversion > Acid Bomb gets you four blasts pretty much simultaneously and takes about 4 seconds tops to execute

That’s about 3 seconds longer than you want it to take. SPEED run, not casual run. Though, that’s more of a problem with your proposed comp, than it is the Engineer.

@Guang

Your last statement on warriors…

-Ahem- http://i.imgur.com/burgBx2.jpg ???

Despite how much I love my beloved beast of a warrior, I accept the fact that she would lack a purpose in a speedrun if not for Banner of Strength and Banner of Discipline.

The general rule of thumb:
Bring 1 warrior and as many elementalists as possible; swapping one out for another class depending on what utilities said class is able to provide that would improve the time it takes to clear the path (i.e. stealth, reflects).

In an optimal speedclear, the warrior is only there for banners and banners are pretty much essential. Your last statement of “If personal base DPS was the only thing that mattered you wouldn’t bring a warrior either, you have to look at how much the group is dealing overall.” We all know that warriors aren’t there for the sole purpose of individual damage output and there have been repeated attempts on this thread to get through to you that the vulnerability that an engineer applies is easily outsourced.

It looks like the main reasons you advocate use of an engineer are because of stealths and vulnerability, so…

Please, answer these two questions…

1) Do you really think engineers are able to provide stealth to the team better than thieves?

2) Even if engineers are able to cap the vulnerability for the team in a boss encounter, would that be better than another elementalist there with ice bow and/or fiery greatsword?

I can’t think of any encounter for those. Let me know if you can.

I don’t dislike engineers or anything, I just don’t see the point in taking one over an elementalist if you want an optimal group composition for speedclearing.

tbh if there was a dungeon that basically went:

run to boss A, kill
run to boss B, kill
run to boss C, kill
run to boss D, kill
run to boss E, kill

where the skips were trivial and the bosses were easy, you’d probably just run 5 ele. extra fgs is better than banners.

That’s true I suppose yeah, we don’t quite have a dungeon like that though… thankfully ^^

We are arguing with someone who has zero speedrun experience.

Purple Miku.7032:

That’s true I suppose yeah, we don’t quite have a dungeon like that though… thankfully ^^

SC did cm with 2 ele/mes/thief/guard

RIP warriors