Guild Wars 2

CM isn’t a dungeon, it’s a freakin’ house robbery! Doesn’t count :P

Lol jk, you got me

RIP me…

maha.7902:

Purple Miku.7032:

That’s true I suppose yeah, we don’t quite have a dungeon like that though… thankfully ^^

SC did cm with 2 ele/mes/thief/guard

RIP warriors

mesmers >>> warriors

oooooh yeah

YEAH WELL YOU KNOW WHAT?

ur all mean noobz

http://i.imgur.com/NqQydxa.gif

Purple Miku.7032:

YEAH WELL YOU KNOW WHAT?

ur all mean noobz

http://i.imgur.com/NqQydxa.gif

Frank Underwood my hero.

maha.7902:

Purple Miku.7032:

That’s true I suppose yeah, we don’t quite have a dungeon like that though… thankfully ^^

SC did cm with 2 ele/mes/thief/guard

RIP warriors

P2 was 3 ele / 1 thief / 1 mesmer, but yeah war has no place in CM 1/2/3 or SE P1 :P

Purple Miku.7032:

@Guang

Your last statement on warriors…

-Ahem- http://i.imgur.com/burgBx2.jpg ???

Despite how much I love my beloved beast of a warrior, I accept the fact that she would lack a purpose in a speedrun if not for Banner of Strength and Banner of Discipline.

The general rule of thumb:
Bring 1 warrior and as many elementalists as possible; swapping one out for another class depending on what utilities said class is able to provide that would improve the time it takes to clear the path (i.e. stealth, reflects).

In an optimal speedclear, the warrior is only there for banners and banners are pretty much essential. Your last statement of “If personal base DPS was the only thing that mattered you wouldn’t bring a warrior either, you have to look at how much the group is dealing overall.” We all know that warriors aren’t there for the sole purpose of individual damage output and there have been repeated attempts on this thread to get through to you that the vulnerability that an engineer applies is easily outsourced.

It looks like the main reasons you advocate use of an engineer are because of stealths and vulnerability, so…

Please, answer these two questions…

1) Do you really think engineers are able to provide stealth to the team better than thieves?

2) Even if engineers are able to cap the vulnerability for the team in a boss encounter, would that be better than another elementalist there with ice bow and/or fiery greatsword?

I can’t think of any encounter for those. Let me know if you can.

I don’t dislike engineers or anything, I just don’t see the point in taking one over an elementalist if you want an optimal group composition for speedclearing.

1) No, but they provide ENOUGH to get through the skips. Thieves have a couple of advantages that MAY make them necessary but Arah P2 isn’t one of those situations where it matters. They don’t stack stealth any faster than engies either, the thief stack method is either Smoke Screen > spam Cluster Bomb 5 times or Shadow Refuge > sit in it for 4 seconds. Either way that’s exactly the same as the Engie’s Smoke Bomb > blast combo route.

2) Yes, because then you don’t NEED to outsource the vuln. The engie takes on all the vuln (and might, if necessary) stacking so your eles deal more damage. Adding another ele for another FGS may be good if you only have one but a third ele doesn’t add anything other than giving you a fifth FGS that would be picked up by the party member with the fewest modifiers anyway.

Moreover since we’re talking stealth, the engie is replacing the thief, not an ele. That means it’s a very easy comparison since it’s not an issue of “do I want to give up an FGS for more overall sustained” since you’re not touching the ele portion of the comp.

Thief also does higher dps with fgs and stacks vuln. More stealth. Faster stealth. Perma blinds. Spammable blasts. Faster at skipping. Is that not enough to convince you?

I just watched through our run. I was NEVER able to maintain 25 vuln on bosses, not even on belka. It usually reached 25 peaks while dropping to 14-15 on average. And this is including other people’s vuln stacks. I was even using Koi Cake and the vuln on crit trait. Been doing your rotation, with little interrupts, as bosses don’t just facetank you infinitely.

spoj.9672:

Thief also does higher dps with fgs and stacks vuln. More stealth. Faster stealth. Perma blinds. Spammable blasts. Faster at skipping. Is that not enough to convince you?

Engie is:

- More DPS than thief outside of FGS.
- Better cleave for trash clears.
- Way better vuln stacking outside of FGS, and slightly better vuln stacking with
- Blasts are simultaneously and faster.
- Can blind without sacrificing DPS

It is true that thief has better stealth and better modifiers for FGS, and can permablind at the cost of something like half their potenital DPS, but if those are the only reasons you’re taking a thief and think engie is never viable, you’re just intentionally being close-minded. You wouldn’t take a full cleric hammer/staff guard if a DPS greatsword guard with Wall of Reflection is good enough for the content you’re running, and you don’t need to take a stealth-and-blind-spamming thief when an engie provides enough for your purposes and gives you better DPS.

hendo.1940:

I just watched through our run. I was NEVER able to maintain 25 vuln on bosses, not even on belka. It usually reached 25 peaks while dropping to 14-15 on average. And this is including other people’s vuln stacks. I was even using Koi Cake and the vuln on crit trait. Been doing your rotation, with little interrupts, as bosses don’t just facetank you infinitely.

Even on bosses, the engie should be maintaining 10-15 of those stacks you’re seeing, so that alone is a pretty big DPS boost. If they could maintain 25 stacks permanently solo on a boss with Defiant, that’d be pretty much the end of the story, they’d be 100% absolutely worth taking.

Hold on, i have to grab my popcorn now.

Dalanor.5387:

Hold on, i have to grab my popcorn now.

This thread is making me fat!

How is that a pretty big dps boost when another composition can stack about as much vuln with little to no costs, while dealing quite twice your’s compositions dps?
Anyway, video is uploading now. Took almost 7 hours to render and I got home around 7pm.

guan is dumb lel

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

spoj.9672:

Thief also does higher dps with fgs and stacks vuln. More stealth. Faster stealth. Perma blinds. Spammable blasts. Faster at skipping. Is that not enough to convince you?

Engie is:

- More DPS than thief outside of FGS.
- Better cleave for trash clears.
- Way better vuln stacking outside of FGS, and slightly better vuln stacking with
- Blasts are simultaneously and faster.
- Can blind without sacrificing DPS

It is true that thief has better stealth and better modifiers for FGS, and can permablind at the cost of something like half their potenital DPS, but if those are the only reasons you’re taking a thief and think engie is never viable, you’re just intentionally being close-minded. You wouldn’t take a full cleric hammer/staff guard if a DPS greatsword guard with Wall of Reflection is good enough for the content you’re running, and you don’t need to take a stealth-and-blind-spamming thief when an engie provides enough for your purposes and gives you better DPS.

hendo.1940:

I just watched through our run. I was NEVER able to maintain 25 vuln on bosses, not even on belka. It usually reached 25 peaks while dropping to 14-15 on average. And this is including other people’s vuln stacks. I was even using Koi Cake and the vuln on crit trait. Been doing your rotation, with little interrupts, as bosses don’t just facetank you infinitely.

Even on bosses, the engie should be maintaining 10-15 of those stacks you’re seeing, so that alone is a pretty big DPS boost. If they could maintain 25 stacks permanently solo on a boss with Defiant, that’d be pretty much the end of the story, they’d be 100% absolutely worth taking.

Nice of you to ignore “Faster at skipping”. Which is probably the most important point i made. Along with more stealth.

Id be interested to see your recommended group composition for TA Forward.

video:

Lol’d @ smoke field cd after belka, just as good as thief indeed

10 vuln when lupi starts phase 2 aoe. im impressed by that composition.

NoTrigger.8396:

10 vuln when lupi starts phase 2 aoe. im impressed by that composition.

is just coz u dun no how to play engi lel my spreadsheet says u wrong

Okay so I just watched that video. On my phone so i couldn’t see all the stacks and stuff but I’d honestly say 18 minutes for a no-FGS Arah P2 run isn’t bad considering:

- You stopped to kill random Risen at least twice.
- You downed multiple times against Belka, Abom, and Alphard. You almost wiped on the latter.
- You never popped Swiftness or swapped to Rocket Boots on your Engie even when you were just running through an empty field.
- You blasted the Abom away from the stack for no apparent reason.
- You got stunlocked by the Inquest laser guys and didn’t have Elixir S slotted to get you out of it. I think your mesmer died during that run, even.
- You had the engie burst Brie when your warrior was standing right there.
- You didn’t vuln-stack Lupi during his reflect phase and I didn’t see you drop any turrets, clones, spirits, etc. prior. I’m actually not sure he targets spirits or turrets though.
- I’m not sure if your mesmer ever used Time Warp. I’d have to go back and look.
- You complain about lack of stealth but the only times you were lacking it was when you dropped the Smoke Bomb randomly and put it on cooldown right before you actually needed it.

And you STILL got sub-18 minutes even with all that. I’d call that an overall success.

They did use FGS, did you even watch it?

Did you not see the waiting 7 seconds for smoke bomb after the spider run and before the deadeyes? Clearly engi has enough stealth. That run was a mess yeah, but thats because it wasnt repeated to perfection (why would anyone waste their time doing that with such an awful comp).

Anyway what do you recommend for TA Forward guang. Id love to improve our time on that path. http://gwscr.com/records/current-meta-dungeon-records

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

And you STILL got sub-18 minutes even with all that. I’d call that an overall success.

i casual duo p2 with dub in 20 min.
the run could be faster if they tried over and over again to get a really fast time yeah. but the team composition sucks.

spoj.9672:

Did you not see the waiting 7 seconds for smoke bomb after the spider run and before the deadeyes? Clearly engi has enough stealth. That run was a mess yeah, but thats because it wasnt repeated to perfection (why would anyone waste their time doing that with such an awful comp).

Anyway what do you recommend for TA Forward guang. Id love to improve our time on that path. http://gwscr.com/records/current-meta-dungeon-records

http://gwscr.com/redirect?id=ef0f968bab15f13a

I don’t know why but the gw2 forums really hates gwscr url’s, so only i have the ability to link directly to threads via creating a redirect.

For future I could probably start just posting thread redirects for each record when I approve them, that wouldn’t be too hard.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

- You had the engie burst Brie when your warrior was standing right there.

But… did’t you explicitly compare engi’s burst to warrior’s saying that engi is best? :o

After having been in the forums for a few weeks I am really surprised a person whose data is always incorrect, therefore losing all credibility is still making random claims.

spoj.9672:

Did you not see the waiting 7 seconds for smoke bomb after the spider run and before the deadeyes? Clearly engi has enough stealth. That run was a mess yeah, but thats because it wasnt repeated to perfection (why would anyone waste their time doing that with such an awful comp).

Anyway what do you recommend for TA Forward guang. Id love to improve our time on that path. http://gwscr.com/records/current-meta-dungeon-records

That Smoke Bomb was on cooldown because he accidentally dropped it before the tunnel. If it’d been a thief misclicking Shadow Refuge you’d have been waiting an extra 40 seconds, clearly thief stealth sucks for skipping too since your party has to wait around for it all the time.

Also as an aside I’d recommend you switch to Rocket Boots whenever you’re stealth stacking, if you have the time/motivation to do so, since it’s also a blast finisher and will give you a huge head start on the skip. Also switch to Medkit for swiftness when practical/necessary (i.e. on the long empty stretch before Abom). I also couldn’t tell if the party was helping with stealth blasts in your vid but if not slot Thumper Turret in place of Grenade Kit and grab your shield (if you don’t need Elixir S) and use that to get the full 5 stacks of stealth.

Also if you don’t have a good ranger player who can do Arah without dying don’t take a ranger lol.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

That Smoke Bomb was on cooldown because he accidentally dropped it before the tunnel. If it’d been a thief misclicking Shadow Refuge you’d have been waiting an extra 40 seconds, clearly thief stealth sucks for skipping too since your party has to wait around for it all the time.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Black_Powder
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blast_finisher
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Smoke_Screen

And once again Guang shows his ignorance … this is the most important thing you had to suggest to increase the speed of the run.

And once again rT show their inability to offer actual proof by uploading a bad run where ranged classes suicided themselves on Belka’s shield, where a ranger didn’t even make the skip to abomination, where scholar buff was poorly maintained in general, a completely unremarkable Lupicus, a disaster at Alphard, a sketchy skip to Brie with low stealth uptime and an average Brie.

You’ve argued relentlessly with Guang for pages and pages and pages on end, so when he says “run this comp and tell me how it goes”, kitten well you should take it seriously and get a good, solid video of it out so that we can all get a good gauge of how well the composition performs, not a run where people are faceplanting all over the place and making silly mistakes.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think an engi fits in a p2 speed clear composition myself, but if you want to prove that, don’t post a bad video and then go hurrr lol guang ur wrong and sit there brofisting each other, it’s sad, pathetic and you should all be ashamed of yourselves for the complete joke that you’ve all turned this thread in to- and bloody well not the funny type, it’s embarrassing to read.

So here’s what I recommend.

Get serious, get five people willing to bring their A-game and post a smooth p2 run with the Guang composition. This doesn’t mean perfect, just smooth. Then we can analyse the parts where an engineer is insufficient and where X class would have been better, and we can also analyse the bonuses an engineer brought and why it was better for them to be there than Y class.

This is just my opinion, not that of Death and Taxes as a whole.

Darox.8069:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

- You had the engie burst Brie when your warrior was standing right there.

But… did’t you explicitly compare engi’s burst to warrior’s saying that engi is best? :o

Not for Brie, you want the Warrior to Eviscerate Brie at 51% so you get a big chunk of extra damage while she’s still taking extra damage. The engie might be able to drop Brie to 50% a few seconds faster but getting that extra chunk of free damage past 50% is more important.

Darox.8069:

And once again Guang shows his ignorance … this is the most important thing you had to suggest to increase the speed of the run.

I’m too lazy to swap traits on the fly between fights and I wouldn’t ask you to do anything I myself wouldn’t. If you’re up for it, yeah, take Speedy Kits if you’re that lacking on Swiftness.

So like for example, since you do not want to do a speedrun to prove your point you would not ask us to do that, right?

More seriously, do you think that only a few mines from the minefield would benefit from the damage boost if they were to be triggered at 51%?

Again, it isn’t up to us to prove him wrong, its up to him to prove himself right. I wasn’t there for that run but I don’t think any of the people who were there would be willing to spend 5-10 hours getting a good run just to prove someone, who is clearly wrong and isn’t even willing to prove himself right, wrong.

That wasnt even an rT run btw.

I don’t think it’s fair to request rT to invest potentially several hours into doing something with an obviously flawed team composition, for the sake of somehow disproving an unconfirmed claim. Did anyone really expect them to put 100% effort into a ‘record style’ run with that team composition? Wake up, this isn’t even about the Engineer specifically anymore. That team composition is terrible and it doesn’t take someone with good knowledge of the game to realize that.

Really, the only test that I can see being fair is that a party which supports Engineer gets together a team and sets a record with it, and then people who think otherwise can try beat it. Can’t beat a record that used an Engineer without one? Engineer must have been the optimal pick. A few seconds difference will not suffice either.