Do you think Raids in GW2 were a bad idea?
You’re making the assumption this has been a positive financial change. I’m making the assumption that those numbers aren’t in yet. Of course they’re going to finish the raid,t they’ve been working on it, it was supposed to come with the expansion, but these chips haven’t been counted yet.
I’m stating the fact that a surprisingly decent amount of players have cleared/worked on content in the raid wings.
According to this: https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/47um5k/raid_5/
41.5% of players have at least stepped foot in the raid and attempted a boss. About 21% of players have cleared a boss, or wiped enough to gather up 50 magnetite shards. What’s more is this is an understatement since a lot of raiders do not use gw2efficiency. You may think “Well 21% (Most certainly more) of the player-base is not significant.” I’m here to tell you that you are wrong. It was speculated that HoT sold about half a million copies. If 21% of the player-base came to this game to raid, or raiding keeps them interested I’d say this is having a positive impact on sales. As time goes by the content will become natural and more and more players will participate. Evidence points to you being the minority when you account for all aspects of this game.
I personally wouldn’t mind seeing these numbers matched up with WvW’ers, sPvP’ers, Dungeons, Fractals, Open world Meta’s, or… what do you guys complaining do? Mine ore all day and SV trains?
There’s been a signficant backlash from the casual community against raids and HoT in general. Significant enough for Anet to revisit HoT and even admit it was too grindy and didn’t mesh with their stated objectives. That kind of backpedaling doesn’t happen when all is well in Denmark.
There’s been a signficant backlash from the casual community against raids and HoT in general. Significant enough for Anet to revisit HoT and even admit it was too grindy and didn’t mesh with their stated objectives. That kind of backpedaling doesn’t happen when all is well in Denmark.
Correction, there’s been a significant backlash from the 1% of casuals that take up these forums. Also, Anet is revisiting HoT outside of raiding. That statement is pointless to this conversation unless you want to show me where Anet stated they were revisiting raids in April.
@Aenorio
Tl;DR I’m guessing you had a bad pugging experience. Part of raiding in pugs is dealing with people who have already cleared the content you are learning. These are people who read up and watched videos on the fights. If you come in, messing up the mechanics or whatever your role is the people running the pug have two options. They can give you constructive criticism, which pretty much no one online can take, or they can kick you out and replace you. It’s fair game and this isn’t elitism. It’s called looking for people of similar skill. If you are looking for people to casually raid and learn together. Find a guild! It’s not that difficult of a concept!
I don’t know what Anet can do about you feeling like the raiding community is “toxic.”
It’s not 1% of the casuals, and for each person that posts, you know a hundred won’t. But aside from that 41.5 percent set foot in a raid means 60% of the playerbase never set foot in a raid, and that includes pretty much everyone in my guild who wanted to see the inside who never raided. Lots of people are curious.
20% beating A raid boss means 80% haven’t beat a raid boss. That means you’re taking a chance at alienating a majority of the player base. Those numbers also include people who have bought raids, because some people sell them.
So tell me, how have you determined this 1% number, may I ask? Can you show me your calculations?
In most single-player games 20-30% of the playerbase never reaches the end. Does that mean that no ending. Does that no mean no ending should be provided? Also, you do realize there are people who mostly play PvP or WvW? A guildie of mine had never set foot in a raid before not because he didn’t like them or was against them, simply because he plays WvW most of the time.
You obviously have very little understanding of how to read metrics. Face the simple fact that raids were embraced by a large part of the community and are being played a lot. I just cannot even fathom how you even begin to rationalize being against OPTIONAL CONTENT that doesn’t require that much resources to develop, people enjoy and play, but you don’t? And to repeat, it’s COMPLETELY OPTIONAL. None of your arguments have even the slightest shred of logic backing them up, especially in the face of the fact that NOBODY is forcing you to play raids AT ALL. But just because YOU don’t like them, that means that the hundreds of thousands of players who do should get nothing in the future? How do you even justify that to yourself?!
(edited by Andulias.9516)
You’re making the assumption this has been a positive financial change. I’m making the assumption that those numbers aren’t in yet. Of course they’re going to finish the raid,t they’ve been working on it, it was supposed to come with the expansion, but these chips haven’t been counted yet.
I’m stating the fact that a surprisingly decent amount of players have cleared/worked on content in the raid wings.
According to this: https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/47um5k/raid_5/
41.5% of players have at least stepped foot in the raid and attempted a boss. About 21% of players have cleared a boss, or wiped enough to gather up 50 magnetite shards. What’s more is this is an understatement since a lot of raiders do not use gw2efficiency. You may think “Well 21% (Most certainly more) of the player-base is not significant.” I’m here to tell you that you are wrong. It was speculated that HoT sold about half a million copies. If 21% of the player-base came to this game to raid, or raiding keeps them interested I’d say this is having a positive impact on sales. As time goes by the content will become natural and more and more players will participate. Evidence points to you being the minority when you account for all aspects of this game.
I personally wouldn’t mind seeing these numbers matched up with WvW’ers, sPvP’ers, Dungeons, Fractals, Open world Meta’s, or… what do you guys complaining do? Mine ore all day and SV trains?
There’s been a signficant backlash from the casual community against raids and HoT in general. Significant enough for Anet to revisit HoT and even admit it was too grindy and didn’t mesh with their stated objectives. That kind of backpedaling doesn’t happen when all is well in Denmark.
There’s been a signficant backlash from the casual community against raids and HoT in general. Significant enough for Anet to revisit HoT and even admit it was too grindy and didn’t mesh with their stated objectives. That kind of backpedaling doesn’t happen when all is well in Denmark.
Correction, there’s been a significant backlash from the 1% of casuals that take up these forums. Also, Anet is revisiting HoT outside of raiding. That statement is pointless to this conversation unless you want to show me where Anet stated they were revisiting raids in April.
@Aenorio
Tl;DR I’m guessing you had a bad pugging experience. Part of raiding in pugs is dealing with people who have already cleared the content you are learning. These are people who read up and watched videos on the fights. If you come in, messing up the mechanics or whatever your role is the people running the pug have two options. They can give you constructive criticism, which pretty much no one online can take, or they can kick you out and replace you. It’s fair game and this isn’t elitism. It’s called looking for people of similar skill. If you are looking for people to casually raid and learn together. Find a guild! It’s not that difficult of a concept!
I don’t know what Anet can do about you feeling like the raiding community is “toxic.”
It’s not 1% of the casuals, and for each person that posts, you know a hundred won’t. But aside from that 41.5 percent set foot in a raid means 60% of the playerbase never set foot in a raid, and that includes pretty much everyone in my guild who wanted to see the inside who never raided. Lots of people are curious.
20% beating A raid boss means 80% haven’t beat a raid boss. That means you’re taking a chance at alienating a majority of the player base. Those numbers also include people who have bought raids, because some people sell them.
So tell me, how have you determined this 1% number, may I ask? Can you show me your calculations?
In most single-player games 20-30% of the playerbase never reaches the end. Does that mean that no ending. Does that no mean no ending should be provided?
You obviously have very little understanding of how to read metrics. Face the simple fact that raids were embraced by a large part of the community and are being played a lot. I just cannot even fathom how you even being to rationalize being against OPTIONAL CONTENT that doesn’t require that much resources to develop, people enjoy and play, but you don’t? And to repeat, it’s COMPLETELY OPTIONAL. None of your arguments have even the slightest shred of logic backing them up, especially in the face of the fact that NOBODY is forcing you to play raids AT ALL.
No one is forcing me to play this game at all. And if I get disenfranchised enough, eventually I’ll leave it, as I did Rift and other games before that. I don’t want to leave, but I certainly will.
I’m not the one reading metrics. Anet is. We’ll see down the road, when it’s had time for the novelty to wear off, how many people enjoy it, how many people continue to enjoy it.
But I’m thinking more people are feeling annoyed by the push toward more challenging content than are embracing that challenging content. That’s an opinion, just like you have an opinion.
Neither of us has evidence, but Anet knows. Still, I dont’ think Anet would admit there was a problem if they didn’t perceive it to be a serious issue of the player base.
Time will tell. I’m happy to wait and see.
Sorry to disagree, but my experience is that the meta events are far easier for someone to get into than raids.
You read my post right? I said ‘’Definitively the raid by a big margin’’ when you ask what need a bigger commitment. So I don’t know why you say sorry to disagree, since we agree on that.
But sorry to be blunt, but who care about your specific situation? Anet can’t design a content base on every single situation that their player could be in their life.
Thaddeauz [xQCx]- QC GUILD
Sorry to disagree, but my experience is that the meta events are far easier for someone to get into than raids.
You read my post right? I said ‘’Definitively the raid by a big margin’’ when you ask what need a bigger commitment. So I don’t know why you say sorry to disagree, since we agree on that.
But sorry to be blunt, but who care about your specific situation? Anet can’t design a content base on every single situation that their player could be in their life.
The gaming population is aging. The age of the average gamer is now over 30. People have more commitments and less time. I’m not alone in a shoe box. I’m part of an ever growing group of casual gamers who can’t necessarily commit.
You kitten those people off at your own risk because there are a lot of us. You think it’s like three guys in a basement in Iowa? lol
(edited by Vayne.8563)
You’re making the assumption this has been a positive financial change. I’m making the assumption that those numbers aren’t in yet. Of course they’re going to finish the raid,t they’ve been working on it, it was supposed to come with the expansion, but these chips haven’t been counted yet.
I’m stating the fact that a surprisingly decent amount of players have cleared/worked on content in the raid wings.
According to this: https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/47um5k/raid_5/
41.5% of players have at least stepped foot in the raid and attempted a boss. About 21% of players have cleared a boss, or wiped enough to gather up 50 magnetite shards. What’s more is this is an understatement since a lot of raiders do not use gw2efficiency. You may think “Well 21% (Most certainly more) of the player-base is not significant.” I’m here to tell you that you are wrong. It was speculated that HoT sold about half a million copies. If 21% of the player-base came to this game to raid, or raiding keeps them interested I’d say this is having a positive impact on sales. As time goes by the content will become natural and more and more players will participate. Evidence points to you being the minority when you account for all aspects of this game.
I personally wouldn’t mind seeing these numbers matched up with WvW’ers, sPvP’ers, Dungeons, Fractals, Open world Meta’s, or… what do you guys complaining do? Mine ore all day and SV trains?
There’s been a signficant backlash from the casual community against raids and HoT in general. Significant enough for Anet to revisit HoT and even admit it was too grindy and didn’t mesh with their stated objectives. That kind of backpedaling doesn’t happen when all is well in Denmark.
There’s been a signficant backlash from the casual community against raids and HoT in general. Significant enough for Anet to revisit HoT and even admit it was too grindy and didn’t mesh with their stated objectives. That kind of backpedaling doesn’t happen when all is well in Denmark.
Correction, there’s been a significant backlash from the 1% of casuals that take up these forums. Also, Anet is revisiting HoT outside of raiding. That statement is pointless to this conversation unless you want to show me where Anet stated they were revisiting raids in April.
@Aenorio
Tl;DR I’m guessing you had a bad pugging experience. Part of raiding in pugs is dealing with people who have already cleared the content you are learning. These are people who read up and watched videos on the fights. If you come in, messing up the mechanics or whatever your role is the people running the pug have two options. They can give you constructive criticism, which pretty much no one online can take, or they can kick you out and replace you. It’s fair game and this isn’t elitism. It’s called looking for people of similar skill. If you are looking for people to casually raid and learn together. Find a guild! It’s not that difficult of a concept!
I don’t know what Anet can do about you feeling like the raiding community is “toxic.”
It’s not 1% of the casuals, and for each person that posts, you know a hundred won’t. But aside from that 41.5 percent set foot in a raid means 60% of the playerbase never set foot in a raid, and that includes pretty much everyone in my guild who wanted to see the inside who never raided. Lots of people are curious.
20% beating A raid boss means 80% haven’t beat a raid boss. That means you’re taking a chance at alienating a majority of the player base. Those numbers also include people who have bought raids, because some people sell them.
So tell me, how have you determined this 1% number, may I ask? Can you show me your calculations?
In most single-player games 20-30% of the playerbase never reaches the end. Does that mean that no ending. Does that no mean no ending should be provided?
You obviously have very little understanding of how to read metrics. Face the simple fact that raids were embraced by a large part of the community and are being played a lot. I just cannot even fathom how you even being to rationalize being against OPTIONAL CONTENT that doesn’t require that much resources to develop, people enjoy and play, but you don’t? And to repeat, it’s COMPLETELY OPTIONAL. None of your arguments have even the slightest shred of logic backing them up, especially in the face of the fact that NOBODY is forcing you to play raids AT ALL.
No one is forcing me to play this game at all. And if I get disenfranchised enough, eventually I’ll leave it, as I did Rift and other games before that. I don’t want to leave, but I certainly will.
I’m not the one reading metrics. Anet is. We’ll see down the road, when it’s had time for the novelty to wear off, how many people enjoy it, how many people continue to enjoy it.
But I’m thinking more people are feeling annoyed by the push toward more challenging content than are embracing that challenging content. That’s an opinion, just like you have an opinion.
Neither of us has evidence, but Anet knows. Still, I dont’ think Anet would admit there was a problem if they didn’t perceive it to be a serious issue of the player base.
Time will tell. I’m happy to wait and see.
So if nobody is forcing you to play it, lots of people love it and it has basically no impact on the development of other content, mind explaining what the hell is your problem with it?
You’re making the assumption this has been a positive financial change. I’m making the assumption that those numbers aren’t in yet. Of course they’re going to finish the raid,t they’ve been working on it, it was supposed to come with the expansion, but these chips haven’t been counted yet.
I’m stating the fact that a surprisingly decent amount of players have cleared/worked on content in the raid wings.
According to this: https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/47um5k/raid_5/
41.5% of players have at least stepped foot in the raid and attempted a boss. About 21% of players have cleared a boss, or wiped enough to gather up 50 magnetite shards. What’s more is this is an understatement since a lot of raiders do not use gw2efficiency. You may think “Well 21% (Most certainly more) of the player-base is not significant.” I’m here to tell you that you are wrong. It was speculated that HoT sold about half a million copies. If 21% of the player-base came to this game to raid, or raiding keeps them interested I’d say this is having a positive impact on sales. As time goes by the content will become natural and more and more players will participate. Evidence points to you being the minority when you account for all aspects of this game.
I personally wouldn’t mind seeing these numbers matched up with WvW’ers, sPvP’ers, Dungeons, Fractals, Open world Meta’s, or… what do you guys complaining do? Mine ore all day and SV trains?
There’s been a signficant backlash from the casual community against raids and HoT in general. Significant enough for Anet to revisit HoT and even admit it was too grindy and didn’t mesh with their stated objectives. That kind of backpedaling doesn’t happen when all is well in Denmark.
There’s been a signficant backlash from the casual community against raids and HoT in general. Significant enough for Anet to revisit HoT and even admit it was too grindy and didn’t mesh with their stated objectives. That kind of backpedaling doesn’t happen when all is well in Denmark.
Correction, there’s been a significant backlash from the 1% of casuals that take up these forums. Also, Anet is revisiting HoT outside of raiding. That statement is pointless to this conversation unless you want to show me where Anet stated they were revisiting raids in April.
@Aenorio
Tl;DR I’m guessing you had a bad pugging experience. Part of raiding in pugs is dealing with people who have already cleared the content you are learning. These are people who read up and watched videos on the fights. If you come in, messing up the mechanics or whatever your role is the people running the pug have two options. They can give you constructive criticism, which pretty much no one online can take, or they can kick you out and replace you. It’s fair game and this isn’t elitism. It’s called looking for people of similar skill. If you are looking for people to casually raid and learn together. Find a guild! It’s not that difficult of a concept!
I don’t know what Anet can do about you feeling like the raiding community is “toxic.”
It’s not 1% of the casuals, and for each person that posts, you know a hundred won’t. But aside from that 41.5 percent set foot in a raid means 60% of the playerbase never set foot in a raid, and that includes pretty much everyone in my guild who wanted to see the inside who never raided. Lots of people are curious.
20% beating A raid boss means 80% haven’t beat a raid boss. That means you’re taking a chance at alienating a majority of the player base. Those numbers also include people who have bought raids, because some people sell them.
So tell me, how have you determined this 1% number, may I ask? Can you show me your calculations?
In most single-player games 20-30% of the playerbase never reaches the end. Does that mean that no ending. Does that no mean no ending should be provided?
You obviously have very little understanding of how to read metrics. Face the simple fact that raids were embraced by a large part of the community and are being played a lot. I just cannot even fathom how you even being to rationalize being against OPTIONAL CONTENT that doesn’t require that much resources to develop, people enjoy and play, but you don’t? And to repeat, it’s COMPLETELY OPTIONAL. None of your arguments have even the slightest shred of logic backing them up, especially in the face of the fact that NOBODY is forcing you to play raids AT ALL.
No one is forcing me to play this game at all. And if I get disenfranchised enough, eventually I’ll leave it, as I did Rift and other games before that. I don’t want to leave, but I certainly will.
I’m not the one reading metrics. Anet is. We’ll see down the road, when it’s had time for the novelty to wear off, how many people enjoy it, how many people continue to enjoy it.
But I’m thinking more people are feeling annoyed by the push toward more challenging content than are embracing that challenging content. That’s an opinion, just like you have an opinion.
Neither of us has evidence, but Anet knows. Still, I dont’ think Anet would admit there was a problem if they didn’t perceive it to be a serious issue of the player base.
Time will tell. I’m happy to wait and see.
So if nobody is forcing you to play it, lots of people love it and it has basically no impact on the development of other content, mind explaining what the hell is your problem with it?
I already have. To get armor on which I can switch stats, I’m pressured to play something I don’t enjoy. There’s no alternate route. You think that’s okay because you like raids. I think it’s not because I can’t raid.
Yes, there have been a number of them since the last AMA when we found out it’ll take longer to get to LS3. Coincidence? Definitely not.
Right now you are just grasping at straws, because everything you said can be countered with three words. You ready for them?
IT
IS
OPTIONAL.
A lot of people like optional content you don’t, so you want it removed. I fail to see the grey area here.
After reading a few posts from Vayne from various raid threads, It just seems like you are one salty individual. You come off as more toxic than any other person i have ever meet in this game. You claim/people will counter claim etc etc, but you should just stop.
all in all, It’s an MMO that is made to cater to a variety of people, At launch the “hardcore” content was suppose to be dungeons/later fractals, those became… meh
Anet never had the intention to NOT have hardcore content, it’s just they weren’t doing a great job of it, they now came out with “yea let’s do raids” and you can’t say it hasn’t done well, and I can’t say it has. The only piece of information that ANYONE has to go with is the one line from Anet, which was that they do in fact experience a higher number of people participating in raids compared to other MMOs
Yes, there have been a number of them since the last AMA when we found out it’ll take longer to get to LS3. Coincidence? Definitely not.
Right now you are just grasping at straws, because everything you said can be countered with three words. You ready for them?
IT
IS
OPTIONAL.
A lot of people like optional content you don’t, so you want it removed. I fail to see the grey area here.
There isn’t a gray area. It’s optional. Playing the game is optional. Being optional or not optional isn’t the point.
If I went to a vegetarian restaurant, because it was a vegetarian restaurant, and suddenly they started serving meat, I’d start feeling like that restaurant wasn’t necessarily for me anymore.
You seem to forget that a lot of people bought this game because it wasn’t raid-centric. I’ve left other games before because I didn’t want to raid, and the only way to get the top tier of gear was to raid. That was a reason to leave those games…for me.
I came here because there were no raids. There were other ways to get the top tier of gear. Now they’re taking some items and locking them behind a type of content that didn’t exist before I purchased the game.
Sure it’s optional. Guild Wars 2 is optional. Computer games in general are optional. If this kittenes off enough people, some of them will play less and some of them will leave. That’s how it works.
If you think Anet doesn’t care about that, I’m not really sure what to tell you. Telling me that I can’t get something I want because you think it should be locked behind content I’m not willing to invest that kind of time into is really besides the point.
And you simply don’t have access to the numbers. You’re trying to say not enough people feel the way I feel. I’m not sure how you hope to prove that.
You’re making the assumption this has been a positive financial change. I’m making the assumption that those numbers aren’t in yet. Of course they’re going to finish the raid,t they’ve been working on it, it was supposed to come with the expansion, but these chips haven’t been counted yet.
I’m stating the fact that a surprisingly decent amount of players have cleared/worked on content in the raid wings.
According to this: https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/47um5k/raid_5/
41.5% of players have at least stepped foot in the raid and attempted a boss. About 21% of players have cleared a boss, or wiped enough to gather up 50 magnetite shards. What’s more is this is an understatement since a lot of raiders do not use gw2efficiency. You may think “Well 21% (Most certainly more) of the player-base is not significant.” I’m here to tell you that you are wrong. It was speculated that HoT sold about half a million copies. If 21% of the player-base came to this game to raid, or raiding keeps them interested I’d say this is having a positive impact on sales. As time goes by the content will become natural and more and more players will participate. Evidence points to you being the minority when you account for all aspects of this game.
I personally wouldn’t mind seeing these numbers matched up with WvW’ers, sPvP’ers, Dungeons, Fractals, Open world Meta’s, or… what do you guys complaining do? Mine ore all day and SV trains?
There’s been a signficant backlash from the casual community against raids and HoT in general. Significant enough for Anet to revisit HoT and even admit it was too grindy and didn’t mesh with their stated objectives. That kind of backpedaling doesn’t happen when all is well in Denmark.
There’s been a signficant backlash from the casual community against raids and HoT in general. Significant enough for Anet to revisit HoT and even admit it was too grindy and didn’t mesh with their stated objectives. That kind of backpedaling doesn’t happen when all is well in Denmark.
Correction, there’s been a significant backlash from the 1% of casuals that take up these forums. Also, Anet is revisiting HoT outside of raiding. That statement is pointless to this conversation unless you want to show me where Anet stated they were revisiting raids in April.
@Aenorio
Tl;DR I’m guessing you had a bad pugging experience. Part of raiding in pugs is dealing with people who have already cleared the content you are learning. These are people who read up and watched videos on the fights. If you come in, messing up the mechanics or whatever your role is the people running the pug have two options. They can give you constructive criticism, which pretty much no one online can take, or they can kick you out and replace you. It’s fair game and this isn’t elitism. It’s called looking for people of similar skill. If you are looking for people to casually raid and learn together. Find a guild! It’s not that difficult of a concept!
I don’t know what Anet can do about you feeling like the raiding community is “toxic.”
It’s not 1% of the casuals, and for each person that posts, you know a hundred won’t. But aside from that 41.5 percent set foot in a raid means 60% of the playerbase never set foot in a raid, and that includes pretty much everyone in my guild who wanted to see the inside who never raided. Lots of people are curious.
20% beating A raid boss means 80% haven’t beat a raid boss. That means you’re taking a chance at alienating a majority of the player base. Those numbers also include people who have bought raids, because some people sell them.
So tell me, how have you determined this 1% number, may I ask? Can you show me your calculations?
In most single-player games 20-30% of the playerbase never reaches the end. Does that mean that no ending. Does that no mean no ending should be provided?
You obviously have very little understanding of how to read metrics. Face the simple fact that raids were embraced by a large part of the community and are being played a lot. I just cannot even fathom how you even being to rationalize being against OPTIONAL CONTENT that doesn’t require that much resources to develop, people enjoy and play, but you don’t? And to repeat, it’s COMPLETELY OPTIONAL. None of your arguments have even the slightest shred of logic backing them up, especially in the face of the fact that NOBODY is forcing you to play raids AT ALL.
No one is forcing me to play this game at all. And if I get disenfranchised enough, eventually I’ll leave it, as I did Rift and other games before that. I don’t want to leave, but I certainly will.
I’m not the one reading metrics. Anet is. We’ll see down the road, when it’s had time for the novelty to wear off, how many people enjoy it, how many people continue to enjoy it.
But I’m thinking more people are feeling annoyed by the push toward more challenging content than are embracing that challenging content. That’s an opinion, just like you have an opinion.
Neither of us has evidence, but Anet knows. Still, I dont’ think Anet would admit there was a problem if they didn’t perceive it to be a serious issue of the player base.
Time will tell. I’m happy to wait and see.
So if nobody is forcing you to play it, lots of people love it and it has basically no impact on the development of other content, mind explaining what the hell is your problem with it?
I already have. To get armor on which I can switch stats, I’m pressured to play something I don’t enjoy. There’s no alternate route. You think that’s okay because you like raids. I think it’s not because I can’t raid.
Stat swapping? That’s it? That’s you argument? Even though you’ve been playing all this time without it and even though this gives no statistical advantage whatsoever?
I sincerely hope you realize how ridiculous and petty that statement sounds.
It would change the way I play the game. I’d experiment more with builds rather than having to get a whole new suit of armor every time I wanted to test something.
It might not be important to you. It’s extremely important to me.
It wouldn’t change the way you play the game all that much.
As in most other post dealing with this we know that Runes need to be changed to make builds effective. Unless you plan on buying and swapping runes in your legendary armor frequently swapping stats is meaningless.
Given that I have made close to 9 legendary weapons at this point in the game and haven’t changed the selected stats on them in over a year other then for my torch when I I swapped it from Beserker for my guardian to Viper for my burnzreker warrior I don’t see how stat swapping is going to make all that much difference, now that we can change stats through the mystic forge.
Truth is I doubt very much that Legendary Armor is going to be a drop reward at the end of raids or the collection. It’s probably going to need to be crafted just like a legendary weapon. Given how much Legendary weapons cost I am going to also assume that the armor will be on par with that. If you really care about being able to swap builds around you will find it is much cheaper to just get a few sets of armor rather than try to craft legendary armor for the stat swap.
Hence just as with legendary weapon stat swapping won’t effect your game play in any significant way
“We have now left Reason and Sanity Junction. Next stop, Looneyville.”
You’re making the assumption this has been a positive financial change. I’m making the assumption that those numbers aren’t in yet. Of course they’re going to finish the raid,t they’ve been working on it, it was supposed to come with the expansion, but these chips haven’t been counted yet.
I’m stating the fact that a surprisingly decent amount of players have cleared/worked on content in the raid wings.
According to this: https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/47um5k/raid_5/
41.5% of players have at least stepped foot in the raid and attempted a boss. About 21% of players have cleared a boss, or wiped enough to gather up 50 magnetite shards. What’s more is this is an understatement since a lot of raiders do not use gw2efficiency. You may think “Well 21% (Most certainly more) of the player-base is not significant.” I’m here to tell you that you are wrong. It was speculated that HoT sold about half a million copies. If 21% of the player-base came to this game to raid, or raiding keeps them interested I’d say this is having a positive impact on sales. As time goes by the content will become natural and more and more players will participate. Evidence points to you being the minority when you account for all aspects of this game.
I personally wouldn’t mind seeing these numbers matched up with WvW’ers, sPvP’ers, Dungeons, Fractals, Open world Meta’s, or… what do you guys complaining do? Mine ore all day and SV trains?
There’s been a signficant backlash from the casual community against raids and HoT in general. Significant enough for Anet to revisit HoT and even admit it was too grindy and didn’t mesh with their stated objectives. That kind of backpedaling doesn’t happen when all is well in Denmark.
There’s been a signficant backlash from the casual community against raids and HoT in general. Significant enough for Anet to revisit HoT and even admit it was too grindy and didn’t mesh with their stated objectives. That kind of backpedaling doesn’t happen when all is well in Denmark.
Correction, there’s been a significant backlash from the 1% of casuals that take up these forums. Also, Anet is revisiting HoT outside of raiding. That statement is pointless to this conversation unless you want to show me where Anet stated they were revisiting raids in April.
@Aenorio
Tl;DR I’m guessing you had a bad pugging experience. Part of raiding in pugs is dealing with people who have already cleared the content you are learning. These are people who read up and watched videos on the fights. If you come in, messing up the mechanics or whatever your role is the people running the pug have two options. They can give you constructive criticism, which pretty much no one online can take, or they can kick you out and replace you. It’s fair game and this isn’t elitism. It’s called looking for people of similar skill. If you are looking for people to casually raid and learn together. Find a guild! It’s not that difficult of a concept!
I don’t know what Anet can do about you feeling like the raiding community is “toxic.”
It’s not 1% of the casuals, and for each person that posts, you know a hundred won’t. But aside from that 41.5 percent set foot in a raid means 60% of the playerbase never set foot in a raid, and that includes pretty much everyone in my guild who wanted to see the inside who never raided. Lots of people are curious.
20% beating A raid boss means 80% haven’t beat a raid boss. That means you’re taking a chance at alienating a majority of the player base. Those numbers also include people who have bought raids, because some people sell them.
So tell me, how have you determined this 1% number, may I ask? Can you show me your calculations?
In most single-player games 20-30% of the playerbase never reaches the end. Does that mean that no ending. Does that no mean no ending should be provided?
You obviously have very little understanding of how to read metrics. Face the simple fact that raids were embraced by a large part of the community and are being played a lot. I just cannot even fathom how you even being to rationalize being against OPTIONAL CONTENT that doesn’t require that much resources to develop, people enjoy and play, but you don’t? And to repeat, it’s COMPLETELY OPTIONAL. None of your arguments have even the slightest shred of logic backing them up, especially in the face of the fact that NOBODY is forcing you to play raids AT ALL.
No one is forcing me to play this game at all. And if I get disenfranchised enough, eventually I’ll leave it, as I did Rift and other games before that. I don’t want to leave, but I certainly will.
I’m not the one reading metrics. Anet is. We’ll see down the road, when it’s had time for the novelty to wear off, how many people enjoy it, how many people continue to enjoy it.
But I’m thinking more people are feeling annoyed by the push toward more challenging content than are embracing that challenging content. That’s an opinion, just like you have an opinion.
Neither of us has evidence, but Anet knows. Still, I dont’ think Anet would admit there was a problem if they didn’t perceive it to be a serious issue of the player base.
Time will tell. I’m happy to wait and see.
So if nobody is forcing you to play it, lots of people love it and it has basically no impact on the development of other content, mind explaining what the hell is your problem with it?
I already have. To get armor on which I can switch stats, I’m pressured to play something I don’t enjoy. There’s no alternate route. You think that’s okay because you like raids. I think it’s not because I can’t raid.
Stat swapping? That’s it? That’s you argument? Even though you’ve been playing all this time without it and even though this gives no statistical advantage whatsoever?
I sincerely hope you realize how ridiculous and petty that statement sounds.
It would change the way I play the game. I’d experiment more with builds rather than having to get a whole new suit of armor every time I wanted to test something.
It might not be important to you. It’s extremely important to me.
It wouldn’t change the way you play the game all that much.
As in most other post dealing with this we know that Runes need to be changed to make builds effective. Unless you plan on buying and swapping runes in your legendary armor frequently swapping stats is meaningless.
Given that I have made close to 9 legendary weapons at this point in the game and haven’t changed the selected stats on them in over a year other then for my torch when I I swapped it from Beserker for my guardian to Viper for my burnzreker warrior I don’t see how stat swapping is going to make all that much difference, now that we can change stats through the mystic forge.
Truth is I doubt very much that Legendary Armor is going to be a drop reward at the end of raids or the collection. It’s probably going to need to be crafted just like a legendary weapon. Given how much Legendary weapons cost I am going to also assume that the armor will be on par with that. If you really care about being able to swap builds around you will find it is much cheaper to just get a few sets of armor rather than try to craft legendary armor for the stat swap.
Hence just as with legendary weapon stat swapping won’t effect your game play in any significant way
I played Guild Wars 1. I changed up builds quite frequently there. I like the idea of being able to change stats. I own 8 legendary weapons and I don’t change stats on them quite frequently only because just changing the stats on the weapons doesn’t so much. But if I could change the stats on armor, I would change the stats on weapons more often.
I enjoyed playing around with builds in Guild Wars 1 and trying different approaches out. I don’t do it nearly as much here.
You’re making the assumption this has been a positive financial change. I’m making the assumption that those numbers aren’t in yet. Of course they’re going to finish the raid,t they’ve been working on it, it was supposed to come with the expansion, but these chips haven’t been counted yet.
I’m stating the fact that a surprisingly decent amount of players have cleared/worked on content in the raid wings.
According to this: https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/47um5k/raid_5/
41.5% of players have at least stepped foot in the raid and attempted a boss. About 21% of players have cleared a boss, or wiped enough to gather up 50 magnetite shards. What’s more is this is an understatement since a lot of raiders do not use gw2efficiency. You may think “Well 21% (Most certainly more) of the player-base is not significant.” I’m here to tell you that you are wrong. It was speculated that HoT sold about half a million copies. If 21% of the player-base came to this game to raid, or raiding keeps them interested I’d say this is having a positive impact on sales. As time goes by the content will become natural and more and more players will participate. Evidence points to you being the minority when you account for all aspects of this game.
I personally wouldn’t mind seeing these numbers matched up with WvW’ers, sPvP’ers, Dungeons, Fractals, Open world Meta’s, or… what do you guys complaining do? Mine ore all day and SV trains?
There’s been a signficant backlash from the casual community against raids and HoT in general. Significant enough for Anet to revisit HoT and even admit it was too grindy and didn’t mesh with their stated objectives. That kind of backpedaling doesn’t happen when all is well in Denmark.
There’s been a signficant backlash from the casual community against raids and HoT in general. Significant enough for Anet to revisit HoT and even admit it was too grindy and didn’t mesh with their stated objectives. That kind of backpedaling doesn’t happen when all is well in Denmark.
Correction, there’s been a significant backlash from the 1% of casuals that take up these forums. Also, Anet is revisiting HoT outside of raiding. That statement is pointless to this conversation unless you want to show me where Anet stated they were revisiting raids in April.
@Aenorio
Tl;DR I’m guessing you had a bad pugging experience. Part of raiding in pugs is dealing with people who have already cleared the content you are learning. These are people who read up and watched videos on the fights. If you come in, messing up the mechanics or whatever your role is the people running the pug have two options. They can give you constructive criticism, which pretty much no one online can take, or they can kick you out and replace you. It’s fair game and this isn’t elitism. It’s called looking for people of similar skill. If you are looking for people to casually raid and learn together. Find a guild! It’s not that difficult of a concept!
I don’t know what Anet can do about you feeling like the raiding community is “toxic.”
It’s not 1% of the casuals, and for each person that posts, you know a hundred won’t. But aside from that 41.5 percent set foot in a raid means 60% of the playerbase never set foot in a raid, and that includes pretty much everyone in my guild who wanted to see the inside who never raided. Lots of people are curious.
20% beating A raid boss means 80% haven’t beat a raid boss. That means you’re taking a chance at alienating a majority of the player base. Those numbers also include people who have bought raids, because some people sell them.
So tell me, how have you determined this 1% number, may I ask? Can you show me your calculations?
In most single-player games 20-30% of the playerbase never reaches the end. Does that mean that no ending. Does that no mean no ending should be provided?
You obviously have very little understanding of how to read metrics. Face the simple fact that raids were embraced by a large part of the community and are being played a lot. I just cannot even fathom how you even being to rationalize being against OPTIONAL CONTENT that doesn’t require that much resources to develop, people enjoy and play, but you don’t? And to repeat, it’s COMPLETELY OPTIONAL. None of your arguments have even the slightest shred of logic backing them up, especially in the face of the fact that NOBODY is forcing you to play raids AT ALL.
No one is forcing me to play this game at all. And if I get disenfranchised enough, eventually I’ll leave it, as I did Rift and other games before that. I don’t want to leave, but I certainly will.
I’m not the one reading metrics. Anet is. We’ll see down the road, when it’s had time for the novelty to wear off, how many people enjoy it, how many people continue to enjoy it.
But I’m thinking more people are feeling annoyed by the push toward more challenging content than are embracing that challenging content. That’s an opinion, just like you have an opinion.
Neither of us has evidence, but Anet knows. Still, I dont’ think Anet would admit there was a problem if they didn’t perceive it to be a serious issue of the player base.
Time will tell. I’m happy to wait and see.
So if nobody is forcing you to play it, lots of people love it and it has basically no impact on the development of other content, mind explaining what the hell is your problem with it?
I already have. To get armor on which I can switch stats, I’m pressured to play something I don’t enjoy. There’s no alternate route. You think that’s okay because you like raids. I think it’s not because I can’t raid.
Stat swapping? That’s it? That’s you argument? Even though you’ve been playing all this time without it and even though this gives no statistical advantage whatsoever?
I sincerely hope you realize how ridiculous and petty that statement sounds.
It would change the way I play the game. I’d experiment more with builds rather than having to get a whole new suit of armor every time I wanted to test something.
It might not be important to you. It’s extremely important to me.
It wouldn’t change the way you play the game all that much.
As in most other post dealing with this we know that Runes need to be changed to make builds effective. Unless you plan on buying and swapping runes in your legendary armor frequently swapping stats is meaningless.
Given that I have made close to 9 legendary weapons at this point in the game and haven’t changed the selected stats on them in over a year other then for my torch when I I swapped it from Beserker for my guardian to Viper for my burnzreker warrior I don’t see how stat swapping is going to make all that much difference, now that we can change stats through the mystic forge.
Truth is I doubt very much that Legendary Armor is going to be a drop reward at the end of raids or the collection. It’s probably going to need to be crafted just like a legendary weapon. Given how much Legendary weapons cost I am going to also assume that the armor will be on par with that. If you really care about being able to swap builds around you will find it is much cheaper to just get a few sets of armor rather than try to craft legendary armor for the stat swap.
Hence just as with legendary weapon stat swapping won’t effect your game play in any significant way
I played Guild Wars 1. I changed up builds quite frequently there. I like the idea of being able to change stats. I own 8 legendary weapons and I don’t change stats on them quite frequently only because just changing the stats on the weapons doesn’t so much. But if I could change the stats on armor, I would change the stats on weapons more often.
I enjoyed playing around with builds in Guild Wars 1 and trying different approaches out. I don’t do it nearly as much here.
I play Guild Wars 1 too, I don’t know what what has to do with the discussion here.
It would be far cheaper to simply craft a new set of armor. Or do you really want to be investing any were from 2k or more in a piece of armor to swap the stats on it?
Also do you really want to be replacing Strength runes with Trooper then have to replace them again with Beserker or Flock or whatever other rune pops up that you want to try in a build?
Exotic armor is cheap and doesn’t really have any real draw back vs ascended in most areas of the game. It would be far most const effective to play around with your builds there.
As I said changing your Runes will be expensive, as will be crafting the armor.
“We have now left Reason and Sanity Junction. Next stop, Looneyville.”
I think you may be overestimating the amount of developer resources put towards raids. In a somewhat recent reddit post, the developers stated that the raid team consisted of 4-5 people. Granted, I don’t know if that includes art and assets.
That was 5-6 people working full time on single raid wing (for 4 months). With several more helping part time. And with interteam cooperation on top of it.
It’s interesting however that they felt the need to downplay the numbers as much as possible.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
(edited by Astralporing.1957)
The gaming population is aging. The age of the average gamer is now over 30. People have more commitments and less time. I’m not alone in a shoe box. I’m part of an ever growing group of casual gamers who can’t necessarily commit.
You kitten those people off at your own risk because there are a lot of us. You think it’s like three guys in a basement in Iowa? lol
Wow this discussion is going nowhere dude. What the kitten are you talking. I never talked about those things and now I’m kitten those people off at my own risk?? Why are you quoting me and responding to me and then not responding to my point. Instead responding to point that I never made?
Just to be clear. I’m a 28 year old with commitment that advocate for an easy mode for dungeons. Man I don’t know how to respond to you, seriously. Your respond is just so freaking weird.
Thaddeauz [xQCx]- QC GUILD
Raids are definitely not what I expected from GW2. The whole experience is very linear and is just a series of boss fights. I prefer raids where exploration is a bigger factor and one where you must complete a series of tasks in any order to complete the raid much like underworld in gw1. The entire dungeon was the size of a zone which made it feel super epic. Also what was great about this style of raiding is that it allows teams to split their groups up into smaller units of any number size to tackle the events in parallel. People that enjoy soloing can get to enjoy coming up with solo tactics for given events and people that enjoy bigger groups can also enjoy the raid as well. The events also allow players who had limited time to do something quick and feel rewarded. If I had 20 minutes in gw1, I could go to underworld and do someting that I felt was satisfying and rewarding, I could easily to go to plains to farm banshees and get a few ectos or farm the smite crawlers and get some ectos. These trash events were rewarding and challenging. Current raid design is basically an all or nothing reward system which I feel does not fit the Guild Wars philosophy of play for 30 minutes and feel like you did something. Anyways I feel raids are a good idea, I just feel that the current implementation is flawed in player experience.
http://www.twitch.tv/eco_r_i
Wynd Cloud | Fierce N Licious
Wynd Cloud | Fierce N Licious
I’m pretty sure those numbers you quoted earlier about raid are a bit stacked. That is to say, it’s likely they’re talking about HoT owners, rather than Guild Wars 2 owners. Which means 40% of the people who owned HoT have entered a raid. That’s not 40% of the players of Guild Wars 2.
They’re stacked even worse than that.
They’re just accounts that registered api keys at that particular website and didn’t opt out of being part of those statistics. (I have an api key there but did opt out, so my non-raiding isn’t on record.)
Only about 1% of all GW2 accounts ever created is counted in, and you can be sure that the vast majority of them are non-casual accounts. It takes a directed effort to find out about api keys, a more than passing interest in the game to even know about that website, and a high level of interest to actually go and create an api key and set up the website to work for you.
Full disclosure: I think raids are the best content in HOT. I’ve yet to see a good argument against them. Most seem to boil down to the same arguments:
1. It’s too hard. Answer: There is other pve content that can cater to your skill level. Try out dungeons, fractals, open world pve, or world bosses. It’s healthy for the game to provide for different skill levels.
2. I want the skins/minis/legendary armor. Answer: It’s ok for content to have exclusive rewards. And these rewards are just cosmetic. They provide no statistical advantage. As for legendary stat swapping, it is expensive to make a legendary and mostly useless. It’s much cheaper to experiment with exotic sets or even stat change ascended gear in the mystic forge. Personally, I’ve only stat changed my legendary weapons once.
3. I don’t like the raiding community. Answer: Then make your own group. Personally, I’ve found very few groups toxic or mean. But there is nothing stopping you from forming a group of like minded individuals.
4. I don’t have the time to raid. Answer: I’m not sure there’s much I can do about this one. Raids are weekly, so you have all week to find the time. But if you can’t, then you’re missing out on other content as well. Like dragon stand, the pvp ladder, or significant wvw encounters. I would suggest finding content in gw2 that fits your play schedule.
5. I want to experience the lore. Answer: Watch a YouTube video, or have someone open a finished instance for you. Speaking personally, I enjoy raids for the encounters, not for the lore.
6. I want to experience the mechanics. Answer: Then raid! The reason why most encounters are difficult is because of the cumulative effect of all the mechanics. But if you want low stress boss mechanics, try world bosses.
(edited by Absurdo.8309)
To extend the life of a set of raids and satisfy both casuals and hard core raiders, maybe they could put in an ez mode form a raid cycle behind.
That is, once this set of raid wings is done and there is a new set of raids coming out, add the ez mode set then on the old raids for casuals to do and see the content, with suitably reduced rewards. Repeat with each new set of raid wings.
Yep. Exactly my thoughts. Unless of course they have some special plan to keep the older Raid wings relevant even after new ones appear, otherwise adding a reduced version when very few people are running them is a good choice.
No power creep from gear treadmill plus requirements for legendary armor means that older raids should remain relevant for longer than usual imo.
Only until the core members of most current raiding guilds will obtain their legendary armor precursors out of it. Which will likely happen within weeks from third wing introduction.
You should NEVER have to buy your way through content to get past a difficulty gate, there should always be routes built into the game for overcoming it yourself, taking a slower but less challenging path.
Or you know, you can wait until it becomes much easier without changing anything. Dungeons were considered hard at release, some even for months after, especially Arah. Then Fractals and Aetherpath were also considered “hard”. Then gradually they all became much easier. Give it some time, Raids are still new
Oh, so you’re expecting current raids to get nerfed, the same dungeons were?
Then i guess we should start advocating for it now.
Listen guys, he doesn’t want to practice. He doesn’t want to participate in this content because of a few failures. He wants the content to cater to him.
You want the content to cater to you, so why suddenly it’s bad when it’s not you?
41.5% of players have at least stepped foot in the raid and attempted a boss. About 21% of players have cleared a boss, or wiped enough to gather up 50 magnetite shards. What’s more is this is an understatement since a lot of raiders do not use gw2efficiency.
Lol, and you think that a majority of non-raiders do? gw2efficiency covers only a small percentage of all players, and tends towards the hardcore, not the casuals, so the results will always be heavily skewed towards that side.
Remember, most people that don’t raid do not use sites like that, because they do not use sites in general – you are unlikely to get their opinion through channels outside game (they won’t come to reddit, won’t come to forums, won’t visit, or even know about, metabattle or efficiency).
I personally wouldn’t mind seeing these numbers matched up with WvW’ers, sPvP’ers, Dungeons, Fractals, Open world Meta’s
I wouldn’t either (especially if those numbers came from Anet). I’m quite sure they wouldn’t be as rosy for raiders as you assume.
Stat swapping? That’s it? That’s you argument? Even though you’ve been playing all this time without it and even though this gives no statistical advantage whatsoever?
Sure. And you also seems to consider the legendary tag important, seeing as you are putting a lot of effort into not letting us being able to ever get it.
I sincerely hope you realize how ridiculous and petty that statement sounds.
Far less petty than denying legendary armor to non-raiders just because you want to feel better than them.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
As others get better at it, you will benefit too, even if you’ve never run the Raid in your life. Why? Because others will hit the actual wall and find better tactics to finish the Raid (or any such encounter).
Yeah, but that’s not really the raid becoming “easier,” that’s just me being more likely to get carried. I mean, if that’s the basis of your claim, then I could find an “easy” raid right now by just joining up with nine people that really know what they’re doing. That’s not what I’m looking for. I want it to be “easier” in the sense that a group of 2-3 veterans, 5-6 really solid but new-to-the-raid players, and 1-3 kinda idiots could still pull out a win within their first few attempts. It wouldn’t be the cleanest win possible, by any stretch, but they would still get past it and move on to the next task.
There are also more unique runs that show how you can use certain builds to avoid aspects of the fight, like killing the Vale Guardian without ever touching green circles, using certain builds for maximum damage so you can skip other mechanics, like No Updraft Gorseval and so on and so on.
Yes, but these alternate tactics require even more experience with the raid, even more refined builds than the base tactics, so they are even less likely to be something a pack of newbs in random gearing could pull off. They’re certainly interesting in their own right, but not really relevant to the idea of making the raids easier for new players.
What I can’t stand is this clown car of self-righteous players who insist that they know the truth about what everyone else wants and can’t stand to see any development effort at all dedicated to anyone who isn’t themselves. Don’t like raids? Don’t play them. They’re a tiny fraction of the game’s content being developed by a tiny fraction of the game’s developers.
Oh, for a second there I thought you were talking about all the players saying “They should never make an easier mode of raiding because I like raiding how it is!” But then you turned it back around to join them.
So just don’t play raids. Why the hell is this still a discussion?! You don’t like them, don’t play them, there, solved your issue!
That doesn’t solve anything.
Raids in GW2 are played by a much bigger part of the playerbase than is common in most MMOs, and this is official info from Anet.
Yes, but raids are typically played by only a tiny minority of players in other MMOs, and they are a new thing so a lot of players are trying them out, that doesn’t mean that they will continue to receive that much attention.
41.5% of players have at least stepped foot in the raid and attempted a boss. About 21% of players have cleared a boss, or wiped enough to gather up 50 magnetite shards. What’s more is this is an understatement since a lot of raiders do not use gw2efficiency.
. . .
I think it’s reasonable to assume that a lot more filthy casuals don’t use Efficiency than raiders. Any data from Efficiency would be more likely skewed towards raiders than towards casuals, because raiders would be more likely to be tuned into 3rd party sites, more likely to care about status and comparing themselves to others, and more likely to keep track of their own meta-data than someone who just wants to log in and have fun a few hours a week. ANet, of course, would have better data, like how much time each player actually spends in there, how many players haven’t entered a raid in months, etc.
I personally wouldn’t mind seeing these numbers matched up with WvW’ers, sPvP’ers, Dungeons, Fractals, Open world Meta’s, or… what do you guys complaining do? Mine ore all day and SV trains?
Currently league season is on so I mostly do PvP matches, but under normal conditions, I was clearing HoT maps with my various alts, running the metas. During the holiday periods I spent a lot of my time doing holiday stuff too. My guild does missions on Saturday nights, and at some point I’ll have to get around to picking up the achievements from the HoT story mode (I’ve just run most of the missions once so far). I look forward to them redoing the metas to make them more accessible, and offered several suggestions for how to do so closer to when HoT came out. I very much hope they make similar changes to make raids more accessible so that I can spend time on those too.
Regardless of how little else might be going on, running raids in their current form will never be a part of my play time.
Full disclosure: I think raids are the best content in HOT. I’ve yet to see a good argument against them. Most seem to boil down to the same arguments:
So to sum up your following responses: “I hear what you’re saying, and I can offer you nothing that would make you less upset, I just don’t care that you’re upset.” Well, hopefully ANet takes a different stance.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
@ Ohoni:
What is the difference in being “carried” by veterans and “carried” by easy mode? At least with harder content you are pushed to improve.
You are calling for raid nerfs when they are still relatively new. I pug wing 1 every week. It’s getting easier and easier. Because people are more experienced in the fights.
It’s not that I don’t care that you’re upset. It’s just that I think your suggestion is misguided. And I, as well as several others on this forum, have made various suggestions on how to improve. Consider it constructive criticism on your idea. When you dismiss these suggestions, or fail to address them, it de-legitimizes your position. It looks like you are arguing for the sake of arguing.
What is the difference in being “carried” by veterans and “carried” by easy mode? At least with harder content you are pushed to improve.
If you’re carried in hard mode then you’re essentially baggage, you aren’t playing, you aren’t doing your part, you’re just along for the ride. If you’re “carried” by easy mode, then you’re working just as hard as the other people you’re playing with, and carrying your fair share of the successes and failures. You’re actually playing the game. And while you aren’t required to improve just to complete the task, you do continually improve over time as you refine your tactics and get better at what you’re doing. This has been true for me across numerous parts of the game, where in there were tasks that I was able to complete fairly quickly, but in completing them dozens, or hundreds of times, I’ve since become WAY better at completing them than my first time through, for example able to avoid every single incoming attack, when the first time I was getting hit left and right.
If you want to question the entire idea of difficulty modes, I hate to tell you this, but they go back as far as the Atari.
It’s not that I don’t care that you’re upset. It’s just that I think your suggestion is misguided.
Well then let’s make it clear, I am not. You can disagree with me or not, that’s fine, but just do so understanding that I am fully aware of the situation and as knowledgeable as you are on the subject, at least in so far as it applies to my own interaction with it.
The situation may change, outside factors might make the raids easier to complete, but if the situation stays as it is, my reaction to it isn’t likely to change at all over time. Suggestions on how I could better “improve” or make due with the status quo are completely pointless, because I have always been aware of those options, and they are not sufficient. So again, you’re left with the choice to care or not care, that’s it.
Consider it constructive criticism on your idea. When you dismiss these suggestions, or fail to address them, it de-legitimizes your position. It looks like you are arguing for the sake of arguing.
But the suggestions being offered are not genuinely attempting to help me or the problems I outlined, they are intended to make me stop complaining about something you all enjoy. You want to bring me to a place where I like the same things you like, when I keep telling you that the things you like are never going to be things that I like, because we have two completely different tastes in what constitutes an enjoyable gaming experience.
Let me give you an example, PvP. I hate PvP. I will never enjoy PvP. I’ve been playing PvP for the past few weeks because I want those wings. I’ve reached Sapphire in both seasons and am on track for Ruby this one. I still hate PvP. I always will. It is just not a game type that interests me on a base level in any way. I could play thousands more hours, I could become the very best PvPer in the game for all that it matters, I would still not enjoy it, so any efforts to make me “enjoy PvP for what it is” would be entirely pointless. Different people are different. Learn to accept this as a fact, and then move forward in life.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
I’m stating the fact that a surprisingly decent amount of players have cleared/worked on content in the raid wings.
According to this: https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/47um5k/raid_5/
41.5% of players have at least stepped foot in the raid and attempted a boss. About 21% of players have cleared a boss, or wiped enough to gather up 50 magnetite shards. What’s more is this is an understatement since a lot of raiders do not use gw2efficiency. You may think “Well 21% (Most certainly more) of the player-base is not significant.” I’m here to tell you that you are wrong. It was speculated that HoT sold about half a million copies. If 21% of the player-base came to this game to raid, or raiding keeps them interested I’d say this is having a positive impact on sales. As time goes by the content will become natural and more and more players will participate. Evidence points to you being the minority when you account for all aspects of this game.
If significant numbers of players who raid don’t use the site from which the numbers are pulled, what is the likelihood that players who don’t raid bothered to use the site? The sample from which the percentages are derived is skewed, badly. It’s kind of like deciding that — since almost everyone who goes into a bar drinks alcohol — that almost everyone in the overall population drinks alcohol. The poster who put the numbers acknowledges this when he says, “Keep in mind that players who are more likely to play raids are overrepresented (sic) on gw2e anyway tho.”
Also, given the Q4 revenue numbers it looks unlikely that 41% of players even bought HoT, never mind raided.
What’s more telling is the actual numbers of players who can be seen to have raided (based on possessing shards during the sampling window), which are not trivial. However, while significant, the numbers are not overwhelming. I know that of the 1.5M claimed monthly account logins, there’s likely a lot of 2nd, 3rd, or Nth accounts. However, all of the players represented on GW2E are not likely anything but a significant minority of all players.
@ the thread
I’m not a raider anymore. I stopped raiding in 2010, when I realized just how much time I was spending on it. Raids being in the game does nothing for me. I’m also not inclined to build a Legendary anything. So, I don’t have a horse in the race.
I’ve generally been supportive of the idea that the game should offer hard, instanced group PvE for those who want it. I’ve been supportive of the idea that there should be prestige rewards associated with raids. The general MMO population (not just raiders) have demonstrated time and again that a lot of them will not play without rewards.
However, I do not think that offering L. Armor only in raids is good for the game in the long run. Certain L. Skins, yes. However, there should be some means for players not inclined to raid to get an iteration of L. Armor.
It’s an unfortunate aspect of GW2 design that Legendary gear encompasses almost all of the long-term goals the game has. There are way too many players in the game who don’t give a fig about hard instanced content for such a goal to be available only via that style of play. For the long term health of the game, ANet has to learn how to diversify their offerings to accommodate diverse play styles, not try shoehorn players into content they don’t care for because rewards. We’ll never know, but consider for a moment how many more might have bought HoT if there had been a way to get L. Armor in general PvE and in WvW tied to HoT.
What’s even more unfortunate is that this issue may be a moot point if ANet cannot figure out a way to offer both more content and more L. skins at a greater rate.
tl:dr: While I believe raids are good for the health of the game, I also believe that multiple paths to attain goals is good for the game. ANet should stick to the idea that certain skins be tied to hard, instanced PvE content, rather than an armor tier.
I don’t like PvP. I think the community is very toxic, immature and encompasses the worst that GW2 has to offer. But Anet added leagues and a legendary back piece. The only back piece in the ENTIRE game that I really, really like. Yet I have to play PvP to get it. That forces me to play something I don’t like, it’s horrible.
So you know what? PvP is hurting GW2 and it excludes players who don’t PvP because they can’t get the back piece. Also, most GW2 players don’t actually play PvP that much at all. So I propose we completely remove the mode from the game, because I don’t enjoy it and it offers rewards I can’t get.
Are you getting the hint yet?
EDIT: For the record I really do want that back piece (and am working towards it) and I really do dislike the PvP community. Under no circumstances do I want PvP or leagues removed. I don’t like them, but that doesn’t mean I should kitten it up for other people and demand they remove it.
(edited by Andulias.9516)
What is the difference in being “carried” by veterans and “carried” by easy mode? At least with harder content you are pushed to improve.
But the suggestions being offered are not genuinely attempting to help me or the problems I outlined, they are intended to make me stop complaining about something you all enjoy. You want to bring me to a place where I like the same things you like, when I keep telling you that the things you like are never going to be things that I like, because we have two completely different tastes in what constitutes an enjoyable gaming experience.
Let me give you an example, PvP. I hate PvP. I will never enjoy PvP. I’ve been playing PvP for the past few weeks because I want those wings. I’ve reached Sapphire in both seasons and am on track for Ruby this one. I still hate PvP. I always will. It is just not a game type that interests me on a base level in any way. I could play thousands more hours, I could become the very best PvPer in the game for all that it matters, I would still not enjoy it, so any efforts to make me “enjoy PvP for what it is” would be entirely pointless. Different people are different. Learn to accept this as a fact, and then move forward in life.
I think this is the crux of both sides. Different people enjoy different content. And that’s ok.
The difference is that raiders would rather see raid developers make new raids, rather than easy modes. I believe fractals and dungeons can cater to your desire for medium-tier content. There are supposedly developers working on this. And I think we can both agree that this content is long overdue.
It’s ok for players not to like all gw2 content. It’s ok for you not to like raids. But I don’t want to see raid resources hobbled up in easy modes.
The gaming population is aging. The age of the average gamer is now over 30. People have more commitments and less time. I’m not alone in a shoe box. I’m part of an ever growing group of casual gamers who can’t necessarily commit.
You kitten those people off at your own risk because there are a lot of us. You think it’s like three guys in a basement in Iowa? lol
Wow this discussion is going nowhere dude. What the kitten are you talking. I never talked about those things and now I’m kitten those people off at my own risk?? Why are you quoting me and responding to me and then not responding to my point. Instead responding to point that I never made?
Just to be clear. I’m a 28 year old with commitment that advocate for an easy mode for dungeons. Man I don’t know how to respond to you, seriously. Your respond is just so freaking weird.
Must have replied to the wrong guy, it’s like 4am here, not sure how it happened. There was a conversation going on, which you came in the middle of. Sorry about the mix up.
…
So just don’t play raids. Why the hell is this still a discussion?! You don’t like them, don’t play them, there, solved your issue!
Raid exclusive rewards and further orienting of content (such as PVE class balancing) towards raids means that this is a train no one gets off of.
I don’t have opinions. I only have facts I can’t adequately prove.
…
So just don’t play raids. Why the hell is this still a discussion?! You don’t like them, don’t play them, there, solved your issue!
Raid exclusive rewards and further orienting of content (such as PVE class balancing) towards raids means that this is a train no one gets off of.
So in order to get a certain shiney weapon or armour you’re prepared to damage a successful raid system that thousands of people enjoy? I hope you don’t really want to do that.
…
So just don’t play raids. Why the hell is this still a discussion?! You don’t like them, don’t play them, there, solved your issue!
Raid exclusive rewards and further orienting of content (such as PVE class balancing) towards raids means that this is a train no one gets off of.
So in order to get a certain shiney weapon or armour you’re prepared to damage a successful raid system that thousands of people enjoy? I hope you don’t really want to do that.
Only if there’s no other alternative – but currently you don’t seem to be willing to even consider any.
And i wouldn’t be so quick to label the system “succesful”. If it was that succesful, we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
I already have. To get armor on which I can switch stats, I’m pressured to play something I don’t enjoy. There’s no alternate route. You think that’s okay because you like raids. I think it’s not because I can’t raid.
No one is forcing you to get legendary armor – there is no content in the game that requires it, there is no statistical advantage to having it. You don’t need it, you want it.
Someone who has 8 legendary weapons ought to be quite familiar with doing something they don’t enjoy for a reward that they want. I’d imagine doing 100% world completion four times wasn’t particularly fun for you, but that was the price you paid for the shiny that you wanted – unless, of course, you just bought it, in which case, what is stopping you from doing the exact same thing now?
…
So just don’t play raids. Why the hell is this still a discussion?! You don’t like them, don’t play them, there, solved your issue!
Raid exclusive rewards and further orienting of content (such as PVE class balancing) towards raids means that this is a train no one gets off of.
So in order to get a certain shiney weapon or armour you’re prepared to damage a successful raid system that thousands of people enjoy? I hope you don’t really want to do that.
Only if there’s no other alternative – but currently you don’t seem to be willing to even consider any.
And i wouldn’t be so quick to label the system “succesful”. If it was that succesful, we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
So things are only successful if you like them?
You’re right I will not budge for people who are hunting for loot with no effort.
Raids are great.
The vocal minority who want legendary armor and unique ascended items without putting in the time however….Not so much.
Hopefully they never go back on the design process as this is one area in the game where in the unique rewards justify the effort put in by all 10 players.
I don’t like PvP. I think the community is very toxic, immature and encompasses the worst that GW2 has to offer. But Anet added leagues and a legendary back piece. The only back piece in the ENTIRE game that I really, really like. Yet I have to play PvP to get it. That forces me to play something I don’t like, it’s horrible.
So you know what? PvP is hurting GW2 and it excludes players who don’t PvP because they can’t get the back piece. Also, most GW2 players don’t actually play PvP that much at all. So I propose we completely remove the mode from the game, because I don’t enjoy it and it offers rewards I can’t get.
Are you getting the hint yet?
I think you’re largely right on that stuff. I don’t mind that they leave PvP in the game though, so long as they don’t waste too many resources on it, and they don’t enforce PvP balance on PvE characters.
The difference is that raiders would rather see raid developers make new raids, rather than easy modes. I believe fractals and dungeons can cater to your desire for medium-tier content. There are supposedly developers working on this. And I think we can both agree that this content is long overdue.
And I don’t disagree with them. My assertion is that it would take them minimal time to produce the sort of easy mode raids I want (given that they already have the hard ones done), and so it’s something they could easily manage without slowing hard mode development, but that if it does take significant resources, the staff needed to make the transition should be pulled from other departments to do it. I really have no interest in fractals or dungeons, I’ve played enough of both for now. Raids have the new content I’d like to be playing, and the new rewards I’d like to be chasing, so suggesting dungeons or fractals serves no purpose.
Only if there’s no other alternative – but currently you don’t seem to be willing to even consider any.
Yeah, I too would prefer to see hard mode raids left 100% untouched here, but if it came down to them or us, I’d have to side with us. If it’s “hard raid or nothing,” then I choose “nothing.”
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
…
So just don’t play raids. Why the hell is this still a discussion?! You don’t like them, don’t play them, there, solved your issue!
Raid exclusive rewards and further orienting of content (such as PVE class balancing) towards raids means that this is a train no one gets off of.
So in order to get a certain shiney weapon or armour you’re prepared to damage a successful raid system that thousands of people enjoy? I hope you don’t really want to do that.
In particular, ascended accessories for the HoT stat prefixes are raid exclusive. I’m fine with ascended viper’s trinkets being available in raids. I’m fine with them being available most easily in raids. My biggest problem is, that they are available nowhere else.
I don’t have opinions. I only have facts I can’t adequately prove.
…
So just don’t play raids. Why the hell is this still a discussion?! You don’t like them, don’t play them, there, solved your issue!
Raid exclusive rewards and further orienting of content (such as PVE class balancing) towards raids means that this is a train no one gets off of.
So in order to get a certain shiney weapon or armour you’re prepared to damage a successful raid system that thousands of people enjoy? I hope you don’t really want to do that.
In particular, ascended accessories for the HoT stat prefixes are raid exclusive. I’m fine with ascended viper’s trinkets being available in raids. I’m fine with them being available most easily in raids. My biggest problem is, that they are available nowhere else.
Which they said, they’re working on for LS3 rewards….so why do we have to do any damage to Raids ?
Why can’t some patience be exercised by players ?
Which they said, they’re working on for LS3 rewards….so why do we have to do any damage to Raids ?
Nobody’s talking about doing any damage to raids though, we’re talking about making them better.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Business-wise: an absolutely terrible idea.
Selling the game to casuals for 3 years, then suddenly turning a 180 with HoT to sell to more “traditional” MMO customers… you just end up losing both types of gamers.
…
So just don’t play raids. Why the hell is this still a discussion?! You don’t like them, don’t play them, there, solved your issue!
Raid exclusive rewards and further orienting of content (such as PVE class balancing) towards raids means that this is a train no one gets off of.
So in order to get a certain shiney weapon or armour you’re prepared to damage a successful raid system that thousands of people enjoy? I hope you don’t really want to do that.
In particular, ascended accessories for the HoT stat prefixes are raid exclusive. I’m fine with ascended viper’s trinkets being available in raids. I’m fine with them being available most easily in raids. My biggest problem is, that they are available nowhere else.
Which they said, they’re working on for LS3 rewards….so why do we have to do any damage to Raids ?
Why can’t some patience be exercised by players ?
You must be thinking of someone else. From the logical side, I can’t find any reason to now have raids. It is just that they bother me personally.
I don’t have opinions. I only have facts I can’t adequately prove.
I’m disappointed this thread was moved. I was looking for a wide range of feedback from many different perspectives and was very pleased both with the quality of arguments being made and the breadth of differing opinions. That is the exact reason why I chose to post this in the Heart of Thorns section rather than the Raids sub-forum. If I were going to make a topic titled, “Do you think cake was a good idea,” I also wouldn’t post it in a cake specific sub-forum since the specific nature of the audience is highly likely to skew the direction of the responses.
With that out of the way, I would like to thank everybody who has taken the time to respond and offer feedback here. It’s been excellent hearing all of your opinions and perspectives on this. I would especially like to thank the people who called me out on not having a strong depth of knowledge regarding Wildstar’s many and varied problems. It was an accurate assessment, while I did try Wildstar for a while it didn’t hook me and I never picked it up again which left my understanding of its failings mostly secondhand and superficial. As such, I appreciated the additional information and the breakdown of what went wrong with Wildstar. I’ve learned a lot from the thread.
I’m disappointed this thread was moved. I was looking for a wide range of feedback from many different perspectives and was very pleased both with the quality of arguments being made and the breadth of differing opinions.
I know, my thread too. It’s somethign I’ve come to expect around here. They like to segregate threads into the place where you’re most likely to encounter the exact same position, ie if you’re discussing raids on the raid forum, most of the people involved are going to say that raids are awesome, if you discuss PvP on the PvP forum then most of the people involved will tell you to “shut up newb,” if you’re looking to draw in people not locked into a specific niche, too bad.
At least they didn’t consolidate a dozen threads into one unreadable mess. That sort of thing might fly on a forum with a functioning search engine, but on these forums it’s the equivalent of balling it up and dumping it into the trashcan.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
And i wouldn’t be so quick to label the system “succesful”. If it was that succesful, we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
Depends on how you define “success”. If success means giving a certain type of player, who has been neglected for a rather long time, something to do then yes Raids are successful. Aside from threads talking about making Raids easier and accessible, Raids have been an actual success, there is dev communication about them, there is talking about bosses, mechanics and builds, overall it’s healthy. Yes, the vocal forum casuals are turning threads about Raids on a “please hand me my loot” ones, but as far as the actual content goes, Raids are a success.
All the complaining is about accessibility by the casuals, the actual content is a huge success.
…
So just don’t play raids. Why the hell is this still a discussion?! You don’t like them, don’t play them, there, solved your issue!
Raid exclusive rewards and further orienting of content (such as PVE class balancing) towards raids means that this is a train no one gets off of.
So in order to get a certain shiney weapon or armour you’re prepared to damage a successful raid system that thousands of people enjoy? I hope you don’t really want to do that.
Only if there’s no other alternative – but currently you don’t seem to be willing to even consider any.
And i wouldn’t be so quick to label the system “succesful”. If it was that succesful, we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
And again I bring up my point about The Ascension. No other way to get it aside from PvP.
Different game modes NEED to have exclusive rewards. This game is all about fashion and bragging rights for crying out loud, so yes, I am unwilling to consider any. The ONLY thing I would EVER consider is adding two separate legendary armors, and one of these remaining exclusive to raids.
And I would definitely call it successful. People like the raids and like the rewards, participation levels are surprisingly high, how is that not a success exactly? On the other hand I find it interesting that people started complaining only after it became clear that LS3 will start after the third raid wing. I don’t remember so many threads about this when Spirit Vale launched FIVE MONTHS AGO, which leads me to believe the real issue is somewhere else and raids are just an easy target. Or were you all unaware how legendary armor worked back then?
And just for the record, I am rather kittened that it will take this long for them to release LS3. But raids did not contribute to that in any way.
(edited by Andulias.9516)
Depends on how you define “success”. If success means giving a certain type of player, who has been neglected for a rather long time, something to do then yes Raids are successful. Aside from threads talking about making Raids easier and accessible, Raids have been an actual success, there is dev communication about them, there is talking about bosses, mechanics and builds, overall it’s healthy. Yes, the vocal forum casuals are turning threads about Raids on a “please hand me my loot” ones, but as far as the actual content goes, Raids are a success.
That’s. . . a fairly bold claim. It is reasonably successful within the niche that wanted it in the first place, yes. Whether that means that it is successful in making the game as a whole better, there really is very little actual data to go on. There is anecdotal data of players being very happy with it and guilds being brought together, there is anecdotal evidence of people being miserable about it and guilds being torn apart, there’s no real data about the relative sizes of these groups, aside from that an ANet employee said that the first few months of this new feature was attended better than “most MMOs,” in which the raiding communities make up only an insignificant fraction of the overall population (though typically with over-loud voices in the community).
So is it a success? Is it a failure? Bit too early to judge on either point, but there’s circumstantial evidence for both at the moment.
And again I bring up my point about The Ascension. No other way to get it aside from PvP.
And again, I am 100% with you on that. Make the Ascension more accessible, definitely, do it tomorrow, if at all possible. But even assuming they don’t, two wrongs don’t make a right, the fact that one area of the game is screwed up cannot be used to justify another area of the game being screwed up. If one area of the game is messed up, you fix that area, you don’t allow it to infect everywhere else.
Different game modes NEED to have exclusive rewards. This game is all about fashion and bragging rights for crying out loud, so yes, I am unwilling to consider any.
There’s absolutely no need for different game modes to have different rewards. There can be different small scale rewards, sure, stuff designed to lure you in, but those should be earnable within an hour or two. In raiding terms, you should be able to buy them for like 25 magnetite without needing to beat any bosses first. They should be to get you in the door, get you trying the thing enough to gauge whether you have any interest or not, and then if you don’t, you’re free to go.
Longer term rewards should be available through multiple sources. You should be able to choose the game modes where you want to spend your time earning them. Some can progress certain things faster than others, for both thematic and difficulty reasons, obviously raids should be one of the fastest ways to earn many rewards, but they should never be the only way, or the only reasonable way, for those who might be tempted to troll with “well, ok, you can earn them via X, but it’ll take you fifteen years that way, hur hur.”
This works out to everyone’s benefit, including raiders, since not only would they have earliest access to the current raid rewards, but they would also gain speedier access to many other cool rewards by pursuing their preferred activity. For example PvPers would be the first to gain access to The Ascension, but raiders would be the first PvE players to gain access to them, while other PvE activities would take weeks or months more of concerted effort.
On the other hand I find it interesting that people started complaining only after it became clear that LS3 will start after the third raid wing.
You just started noticing the complaints. I’ve been complaining about raids since before they launched, and those who told me “wait until they come out, you’ll see,” as it happens, they turned out exactly as I thought they would, at least for the time being. I didn’t talk too much about them during the run of the first wing, and I was distracted by the PvP leagues for a couple weeks, but now the first wing is done and the second wing is out too, so I’m diving back into the discussion. You are at least partially right though that several weeks of nonstop raid promotion on their chat show, with no discussion of anything anyone else cares about, does sort of annoy me.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Raids had to be made in few modes, like gw missions used to be: normal and hard etc. Currently everyone want to do raids or wanted to do them, lfg is packed with so called experienced people, however one weak pug can ruin one hour work. I personaly stoped wasting my time with raids as with 90+ fractals. Rewards are to low comparing to time spent. Raids is failure atm, however it could be fixed.
Depends on how you define “success”. If success means giving a certain type of player, who has been neglected for a rather long time, something to do then yes Raids are successful. Aside from threads talking about making Raids easier and accessible, Raids have been an actual success, there is dev communication about them, there is talking about bosses, mechanics and builds, overall it’s healthy. Yes, the vocal forum casuals are turning threads about Raids on a “please hand me my loot” ones, but as far as the actual content goes, Raids are a success.
That’s. . . a fairly bold claim. It is reasonably successful within the niche that wanted it in the first place, yes. Whether that means that it is successful in making the game as a whole better, there really is very little actual data to go on. There is anecdotal data of players being very happy with it and guilds being brought together, there is anecdotal evidence of people being miserable about it and guilds being torn apart, there’s no real data about the relative sizes of these groups, aside from that an ANet employee said that the first few months of this new feature was attended better than “most MMOs,” in which the raiding communities make up only an insignificant fraction of the overall population (though typically with over-loud voices in the community).
So is it a success? Is it a failure? Bit too early to judge on either point, but there’s circumstantial evidence for both at the moment.
As piece of content, it’s a “success” at least compared to most other types of content we’ve had in the past that had a lot of complaints about them. For Raids it’s usually praise. Again, I’m talking about the content itself, how good designed it is, how engaging the fights are etc. Take for example Tirbulation Mode of SAB. It was hard, yes, but for those doing it, it was a success, even though it was a tiny fraction of the SAB playerbase, not to mention the entire GW2 playerbase. There are multiple types of success, but as far as content goes, Raids are a success.
The only complaint I see about the Raids is the accessibility of it… nothing about the content itself. Was it a bold comment? Maybe, but if you read the part I quoted and responded to, it gave the impression of Raids being a complete failure.
@Ohoni
And for once someone with actual arguments that make sense in this thread. Granted, I do remember one thread about this, might have been yours even! But the majority of players simply didn’t say a word, which I find highly suspicious. So it all comes down to this:
1. I assume (going out on a limb here, but I feel safe to see) we both don’t think raids as CONTENT are a failure. As I stated before IMO they were a big success. In fact, I never thought I would ever raid again, but GW2 changed my mind.
2. It all comes down to this – should rewards be exclusive to a certain content type. You say no, I say yes. That is a difference of opinion, and it’s perfectly fine. Here’s what I think though:
I am OK with The Ascension being exclusive. I am OK with seeing a player rocking those sweet golden-blue wings and thinking “that guy must be really good at PvP to get that”. That is the entire point! It’s the same with, say, fractal weapons, which you can only get from doing fractals. These not only define your looks, they tell your character’s story. They show that you are a good raider/PvP-er, fractal runner, whatever. They display your accomplishments in the game. The moment you add additional ways to get them you take away from those people’s achievements. Exclusivity is in that sense not only good, but essential, it makes the player feel like they have really accomplished something.
What I am not entirely OK with is the legendary armor from raids being the only one in the entire game. The [/i]skin[i] – sure, but not the stat thing.
Another thing that currently irks me, and NOBODY has mentioned AT ALL (surprisingly, considering, say, Vayne claims to want to experiment with new stat sets) is that some of the new stat sets can almost exclusively be acquired by raiding or raids are by far the easiest method of getting them.
But the thing is, those two things I am 100% sure will be addressed in the future. and I am A HUNDRED PERCENT AGAINST boycotting and hating on raids and demanding they be removed simply because YOU don’t want to play them. That’s a kind of egocentrism I can’t even begin to comprehend.
(edited by Andulias.9516)
What I am not entirely OK with is the legendary armor from raids being the only one in the entire game. The [/i]skin[i] – sure, but not the stat thing.
I would actually agree with this, but I think it’s kind of irrelevant. I highly doubt that anet will only ever make legendary armor sets for raids. It might be the first set, and given how long it’s taking to roll out, it might be a while before we see another, but just the same way they are making multiple legendary backpieces for different game modes, I’m pretty confident they’ll do the same thing with armor. It’s just a matter of time.
Tomeslave and others – [RISE], [xDDD]
As piece of content, it’s a “success” at least compared to most other types of content we’ve had in the past that had a lot of complaints about them.
Again, no basis for that claim. You liking something does not make it “a success.”
For Raids it’s usually praise. Again, I’m talking about the content itself, how good designed it is, how engaging the fights are etc. Take for example Tirbulation Mode of SAB. It was hard, yes, but for those doing it, it was a success, even though it was a tiny fraction of the SAB playerbase, not to mention the entire GW2 playerbase. There are multiple types of success, but as far as content goes, Raids are a success.
Well, within that narrow context, yes, I think it was a success, but that is a very narrow context. ANet can’t consider only narrow contexts, they have to consider the game as a whole, and on that score we’re still very much in doubt.
The only complaint I see about the Raids is the accessibility of it… nothing about the content itself. Was it a bold comment?
Weeeelll, but the accessibility and the content are the same thing, to a point. Some in these threads have said “all we need is a better LFG system, that will solve everything,” their point being, I assume, that they feel it’s too hard to find a good pug, and that once that’s taken care of all other concerns will go away. I don’t think that’s true at all, I don’t think any changes to the LFG UI could result in making it significantly easier to find a good pug, the current system works reasonably well for that, and solving the difference would do nothing to solve the core issues with raids.
The core accessibility issue is not in being able to find a party, it’s in most individual players not wanting the level of risk that the raids represent. There is no solution to that which does not involve reducing those risks, making success more likely, while the involved player’s skill levels and gearing remain as inefficient as they currently are. So yes, as a lot of people see it, there is a core and genuine complaint about the content itself, namely that the enemies hit too hard sometimes and have too much HP, relative to content that they would actually enjoy.
Hence the constant requests for an “easy mode” of some variety that would include the same fight mechanics, with reduced penalties for failing them (less than, “you wipe and have to start the encounter over”).
Maybe, but if you read the part I quoted and responded to, it gave the impression of Raids being a complete failure.
And I don’t think there’s evidence for that yet, but it could still be viewed as a complete failure, even if the raiding community loves it, IF it ends up doing more long-term harm than good for the game, by perhaps driving away more players than it brings in.
1. I assume (going out on a limb here, but I feel safe to see) we both don’t think raids as CONTENT are a failure.
As I noted, raiders seem to like it, and I was myself intrigued by the ideas of the raid mechanics, if not the punishing implementation. I think it succeeded at doing what it set out to do, I just don’t know whether what it set out to do was wise.
I am OK with The Ascension being exclusive. I am OK with seeing a player rocking those sweet golden-blue wings and thinking “that guy must be really good at PvP to get that”.
Ok, that’s fine, although keep in mind, I am going to be rocking those wings by the fall, and I am really not all that good at PvP. It’s mostly grind, really. I absolutely hate it, but I put up with it, which I’m sure is exactly the quote ANet would want for the back of the box. Success!
But you’re ok with that, that’s fine, just don’t try to use it as an excuse for other content to also be exclusive. You like that X is exclusive, you like that Y is exclusive, these are both opinions and you’re entitled to them, but X being exclusive does not provide any sort of objective justification for Y also being exclusive.
It’s the same with, say, fractal weapons, which you can only get from doing fractals.
And I doubt you’d be surprised by my stance on those.
They show that you are a good raider/PvP-er, fractal runner, whatever. They display your accomplishments in the game. The moment you add additional ways to get them you take away from those people’s achievements.
Setting aside how many people will be rocking the Ascension that barely set foot into PvP before it was announced and will barely set foot in PvP after, I really think this is a poor use of character customization. Armor and weapons should not be about “your story,” they should be about the way you want your character to look. It shouldn’t be like wearing “pieces of flair,” it should be about looking how you want to look. “personal experiences” should be conveyed through things like titles, nametag flair, stuff like that, not things that are part of the visual representation of your character.
But the thing is, those two things I am 100% sure will be addressed in the future. and I am A HUNDRED PERCENT AGAINST boycotting and hating on raids and demanding they be removed simply because YOU don’t want to play them. That’s a kind of egocentrism I can’t even begin to comprehend.
Was anyone suggesting boycotting them, or that they should be removed? I must have missed that. I think the most extreme statements were more in the realm of “further development should be scaled back and eventually stopped,” like with other defunct content, and that might still be warranted (if the amount of effort currently spent on them is not worth the number of players benefiting from it), but I wouldn’t want raids removed. My personal stance is that they should be expanded, by allowing for easy mode versions that offer less reward, but are more approachable. Or at the very least that the current raid-exclusive items be made available via other reasonable channels.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
…
So just don’t play raids. Why the hell is this still a discussion?! You don’t like them, don’t play them, there, solved your issue!
Raid exclusive rewards and further orienting of content (such as PVE class balancing) towards raids means that this is a train no one gets off of.
So in order to get a certain shiney weapon or armour you’re prepared to damage a successful raid system that thousands of people enjoy? I hope you don’t really want to do that.
Only if there’s no other alternative – but currently you don’t seem to be willing to even consider any.
And i wouldn’t be so quick to label the system “succesful”. If it was that succesful, we wouldn’t be having this conversation.And again I bring up my point about The Ascension. No other way to get it aside from PvP.
Yeah, and that’s not good either. In this case, however, at least there’s a different legendary backpack available somewhere else, so it’s not equally bad. And The Ascension is far more easily available – it doesn’t require you to be a good pvp player. It would take you a lot of time if you’re not at at least competent level, but you’d still be able to grind for it. Raid equivalent would be the easy raids proposal Ohoni brought up in a separate thread.
Different game modes NEED to have exclusive rewards. This game is all about fashion and bragging rights for crying out loud, so yes, I am unwilling to consider any.
Well, if you are completely unwilling to consider my point of view, why do you expect me to care about raids at all? In context of your statement, nuking Raids out of orbit would be the best solution after all.
And I would definitely call it successful. People like the raids and like the rewards, participation levels are surprisingly high, how is that not a success exactly?
Yeah, they are succesful so much that company director felt the need to publicly try to persuade players that they are only a minor, insignificant part of the whole game, and tried to downplay how much people are working of them.
Yeah, that’s what you do with a succesful content. Downplay it.[/sarcasm]
Or were you all unaware how legendary armor worked back then?
Until the AMA yes, we were unaware that legendary armor is currently planned as raids only content and no alternates for other content are considered.
And just for the record, I am rather kittened that it will take this long for them to release LS3. But raids did not contribute to that in any way.
And if you can believe that, i think i still have few bridges to sell.
Another thing that currently irks me, and NOBODY has mentioned AT ALL (surprisingly, considering, say, Vayne claims to want to experiment with new stat sets) is that some of the new stat sets can almost exclusively be acquired by raiding or raids are by far the easiest method of getting them.
Oh, i have mentioned it many times already. It’s just that the Raid crowd always responds the same: “Oh, but ascended gear isn’t really needed”).
But the thing is, those two things I am 100% sure will be addressed in the future.
And knowing Anet, i’m 100% sure that if we don’t raise a fuss now, they will not be addressed.
and I am A HUNDRED PERCENT AGAINST boycotting and hating on raids and demanding they be removed simply because YOU don’t want to play them. That’s a kind of egocentrism I can’t even begin to comprehend.
It’s good then that noone actually is asking for this, right? We’re still at the phase of discussing alternatives that will satisfy us without actually hurting raids at all. It’s just that the Raid crowd doesn’t want any of this either, and is working hard to persuade us that the scorched earth approach is the only way. Which really is the kind of egocentrism i can’t even begin to comprehend, to quote you.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
(edited by Astralporing.1957)
Again, no basis for that claim. You liking something does not make it “a success.”
We got Dev posts on Raids, we got Raid communication on Raids, they are even using actual guilds/players to test the content. There is a lot of give and take here. There are no threads on these forums (that I can see) that express discomfort with specific mechanics or ideas of the Raid, other than the “Easy mode” requests and after Wing 2 was released some comments about Slothazor’s attacks have bugged icons.
Compare it to every single Living World release we got since the game launched and the amount of complaints we got about various aspects of it and you get the picture.
Well, within that narrow context, yes, I think it was a success, but that is a very narrow context. ANet can’t consider only narrow contexts, they have to consider the game as a whole, and on that score we’re still very much in doubt.
Not really, you might call it “narrow context” but that’s what is needed. It’s content by a small sub-set of the company, it’s something NEW for the developers as well as the playerbase. We didn’t have Raids before HoT last I checked.
When you add something new, that’s the kind of “success” you want. Other metrics cannot possibly be identified in the first few months.
Weeeelll, but the accessibility and the content are the same thing, to a point.
First of all, the Raids weren’t supposed to be puggable in the first place, so I really don’t understand all the comments about “I can’t find a party”, “no pug accept me” or anything like that. It was mentioned since day 1 that the Raid was supposed to be content for Guilds and organized people. No Ping gear, no AP requirements, no LI requirements, no LFG posts. But I guess the biggest problem of this community is that they prefer playing with complete randoms, complete strangers, and expect to be taken in, and find groups easily. Sigh.
And I don’t think there’s evidence for that yet, but it could still be viewed as a complete failure, even if the raiding community loves it, IF it ends up doing more long-term harm than good for the game, by perhaps driving away more players than it brings in.
Sorry but players going away because of the Raid is a joke. If players liked the rest of the game and didn’t feel like HoT zones weren’t casual enough, or that it was so short and didn’t have enough armor sets, they wouldn’t leave the game because of the Raids. Anyone who says they leave the game because of it is hypocrite.