Guild Wars 2

Avarice.2791:

@Blaeys

Every one of your responses in your initial post sounded like an attack on me. You misunderstood pretty much every point I’ve raised thus far and put words in my mouth that I never said. You then raised a lot of points without backing them up with logic.

Your second post is a lot more constructive and I agree with the majority of it so I don’t sense there needs to be a response to what you said as we are for the most part agreeing. I’m simply just not sure how much more you can nerf certain content without destroying the fight and making it no different than the rest of the game. Let’s take VG. You can already survive if you miss a green circle. You can survive even with some bad breakbars and tank placement. If you nerf that further what do you even have? Just my two cents and my main argument for why raid should be forward progression and not retract backwards. Easy content is short lived.

I can promise that none of my posts were directed at you personally and I apologize if you feel that was the case. Truth is, I wasn’t even paying attention to postee’s names – just the conversation.

Needless to say, you and I disagree about most of these topics. All I’m asking is to keep the personally directed comments out of the conversation altogether – let’s focus on the discussion.

To address your notes above, I don’t think anyone is advocating retracting or regressing the current raid design in any way. Anything they do would have to be in addition or in conjunction with what they are doing now. I think almost everyone feels that way.

I’m simply just not sure how much more you can nerf certain content without destroying the fight and making it no different than the rest of the game. Let’s take VG. You can already survive if you miss a green circle. You can survive even with some bad breakbars and tank placement. If you nerf that further what do you even have?

Wouldn’t “making it of similar difficulty to the rest of the game that hundreds of thousands have enjoyed for over three years” be a worthwhile goal?

As for VG, my guild raid group attempted it for many hours over several days, at least 3-5 total, which I understand is minimal by “raider” standards, but not by anyone else’s standards, and the closest we got was the middle of phase 2. Missing a green circle is not terribly survivable for most characters (I was running Reaper with auto-shroud at the time so I often stayed on my feet, but was pretty much the only one), and managing the DPS in that fight is non-trivial, as we often came nowhere close to the pace we’d need. My recommendations for that fight would be to make the green circles do less damage, or perhaps only target up to five players so that there would always be people to rez (maybe everyone in the circle would be immune?), I would reduce the damage of the colored wedges to be less lethal (but still something you wouldn’t want to stand in), and I would reduce the VG’s HP, so that it’s easier for a lower DPS team to bring him down within the timer.

@Blaeys

I’ve been pretty civil to the majority of the players on these threads minus one in particular. Just seemed like you took all my points and redirected them to things I’m not saying/advocating to make me look like an idiot which is why I responded the way I did to you. You have a major misunderstanding on what I am saying :P

I am aware that no one is advocating a change in the current raid difficulty. They are advocating a zerg-like raid with reduced mechanics and I’m going over why I think this is a bad use of dev time and not a good idea.

I don’t know what I can say here without getting banned from the forums. You just made every person who has half an idea how raiding works literally cringe. Tempest is a berserker class. All berserker. Start there. Get yourself some runes of the scholar and some proper food/utilities. Read a couple guides. Bam. You’re raid ready. Or keep this up. It’s your life mane.

Exactly my point. I know that it’s not the build most people would want in a raid, but it’s the build that I’ve got because it’s designed primarily for other content. I want a raid in which that doesn’t matter.

You know what might help me have the right stats for the task though, if I had armor that could change stats on demand. . .

Ohoni.6057:

Wouldn’t “making it of similar difficulty to the rest of the game that hundreds of thousands have enjoyed for over three years” be a worthwhile goal?

Honestly, you do not seek to improve your game. I believe optimistically that most players would like to seek ways to become better at what they put time into. By providing a tiers of challenging content a game keeps players interested, rather than that MMO you play every few months then quit. I believe we as humans will always seek a challenge. The fact that you are not doing as well as you’d like with the effort you think you are putting in is leading to you creating this scapegoat of an idea rather than seeking help to improve your play which so many players here would be happy to give! It’s the stubbornness that is leading to your downfall.

Ohoni.6057:

Exactly my point. I know that it’s not the build most people would want in a raid, but it’s the build that I’ve got because it’s designed primarily for other content. I want a raid in which that doesn’t matter.

Okay, you’ve been playing MMO’s for… did you say 25 years? You and I know this is not how it works Ohani. You are sacrificing over half of your damage output by wearing soldiers/whatever gear. Even in open world environments I would not advocate that kind of gear. Sure, you’re helping yourself survive, but you’re not learning, and you’re not helping in content as much as other players are.

Now, I understand in most environments this is not a requirement because there are other players to pick up the slack… in fact a large buffer of extra players, but this is not how raids are designed. Anywhere. And this is okay.

Ohoni.6057:

You know what might help me have the right stats for the task though, if I had armor that could change stats on demand. . .

So… what you are saying is you want easy-mode raids for the reward… which I agree a tier of gear should not be gated behind content such as this… So… you and I actually agree on something… No way…? What if I actually agreed with you the whole time but we got into this petty argument simply because you kept saying you want to do it for the mechanics. All you have to admit is that gating a tier of gear behind raiding is absolute garbage and I will back you alllll day.

In the mean time you can farm 15g and get yourself a set of zerker exotic gear. 22k Achievement points. You can do it! If you literally want private help from me I will help you optimize your tempest for raiding. I mean if the gold is too much I will buy you a kitten exotic zerker set. This offer is only for you though, love.

Ohoni.6057:

Exactly my point. I know that it’s not the build most people would want in a raid, but it’s the build that I’ve got because it’s designed primarily for other content. I want a raid in which that doesn’t matter.

I think, as long as providing that experienced does not diminish the experience of more advanced raiders, that is a perfectly reasonable request.

Not everyone in the game wants to go to the work of min/maxing (to any degree) or playing to a specific meta, etc, for the sole purpose of experiencing raids ( I personally do these things, but only because I want to).

And, at the end of the day, it is just a game. I think it would be a good and productive addition if Anet provided them with a way for more of them to experience the content themselves.

I understand the “but they didn’t put the work in” and “that isn’t how raids work in other games” arguments – I just don’t agree that those are real issues because, again, it is just a game.

@Blaeys

The only problem with this is rocking 1600 toughness goes directly against the mechanics on a few on the raid bosses such as VG. This means that as a tempest, Ohani will be holding aggro. It’s pretty much raid 101 that whoever has the most toughness on bosses who hold aggro, will receive the aggro.

What this implies is that zero work has gone into researching what the heck is going on in this new crazy content. It’s like hopping in a level 100 fractal with exotic gear. Is that a reasonable request?

Like, if he was wearing condi gear or anything I could understand this, but to get 1600 toughness… this means you’re wearing a random array of stats without an understanding on how it’s impacting your performance.

One thing about raids, which is fundamental to raids, is that there are roles to be filled. People have jobs to do. Bringing in a tempest with 1600 toughness tends to cause problems. Take Gors. You put the tempest in charge of taking care of blue orbs. The tempest has a 50% dps cut in exchange for unneeded survivability. Those orbs are going to overrun the place. Whose fault is that? The game?

Avarice.2791:

@STIHL

It’s merely the fact that hard != excluded therefore your analogy is a fallacy..

Can we please stop this charade that Hard does not mean Exclusive. We all know it does.

Avarice.2791:

@Blaeys

The only problem with this is rocking 1600 toughness goes directly against the mechanics on a few on the raid bosses such as VG. This means that as a tempest, Ohani will be holding aggro. It’s pretty much raid 101 that whoever has the most toughness on bosses who hold aggro, will receive the aggro.

What this implies is that zero work has gone into researching what the heck is going on in this new crazy content. It’s like hopping in a level 100 fractal with exotic gear. Is that a reasonable request?

Like, if he was wearing condi gear or anything I could understand this, but to get 1600 toughness… this means you’re wearing a random array of stats without an understanding on how it’s impacting your performance.

One thing about raids, which is fundamental to raids, is that there are roles to be filled. People have jobs to do. Bringing in a tempest with 1600 toughness tends to cause problems. Take Gors. You put the tempest in charge of taking care of blue orbs. The tempest has a 50% dps cut in exchange for unneeded survivability. Those orbs are going to overrun the place. Whose fault is that? The game?

Except in fractals, he has another way to experience the fight that doesn’t require the gear and attention to meta you are talking about – level 1-10 fractals.

Following the same analogy, no one is asking them to nerf the raid (the lvl 100 fractal). They are basically asking for the lvl 1 fractal equivalent of that raid. It doesn’t change the nature of the level 100 in any way – it just extends the experience to a wider group of players.

I can see logical arguments against (developer time being the biggest), but if they can do this without altering the top end experience, there really is (literally) no harm in it – and it would make some peoples’ game time more enjoyable – which should be the only real goal..

Don’t take this as a personal attack on you or even on your ideas of what raiding is. It is simply people disagreeing with you.

Blaeys.3102:

Avarice.2791:

@Blaeys

The only problem with this is rocking 1600 toughness goes directly against the mechanics on a few on the raid bosses such as VG. This means that as a tempest, Ohani will be holding aggro. It’s pretty much raid 101 that whoever has the most toughness on bosses who hold aggro, will receive the aggro.

What this implies is that zero work has gone into researching what the heck is going on in this new crazy content. It’s like hopping in a level 100 fractal with exotic gear. Is that a reasonable request?

Like, if he was wearing condi gear or anything I could understand this, but to get 1600 toughness… this means you’re wearing a random array of stats without an understanding on how it’s impacting your performance.

One thing about raids, which is fundamental to raids, is that there are roles to be filled. People have jobs to do. Bringing in a tempest with 1600 toughness tends to cause problems. Take Gors. You put the tempest in charge of taking care of blue orbs. The tempest has a 50% dps cut in exchange for unneeded survivability. Those orbs are going to overrun the place. Whose fault is that? The game?

Except in fractals, he has another way to experience the fight that doesn’t require the gear and attention to meta you are talking about – level 1-10 fractals.

Following the same analogy, no one is asking them to nerf the raid (the lvl 100 fractal). They are basically asking for the lvl 1 fractal equivalent of that raid. It doesn’t change the nature of the level 100 in any way – it just extends the experience to a wider group of players.

And, no one is saying he can’t run his “unique” build. He can, he’s just far less likely to have success with the harder content. Every piece of content has a meta and meta builds. That doesn’t mean non-meta stuff can’t work, it just means you’re less likely to find a PUG group that will take you. If you really want to run a unique build, there’s always the option of starting your own group and leading it.

However, the people which are being described wont even go that far, and they do want easy modes with equal rewards.

TexZero.7910:

… they do want easy modes with equal rewards.

I do agree that is a very bad idea – and I know many other who do as well. I think the issue is about the experience.

Players putting in more effort definitely deserve a reward for that effort.

STIHL.2489:

Avarice.2791:

@STIHL

It’s merely the fact that hard != excluded therefore your analogy is a fallacy..

Can we please stop this charade that Hard does not mean Exclusive. We all know it does.

Then you gotta stop pushing that analogy homie.

@Blaeys

Sorry, but running 1600 toughness automatically causes your group to fail in some situations. If you think this sort of ignorance is OK… I don’t know what to tell you. Every MMO has an optimal build. It’s simple math. Each fight has a DPS check. You need to make this. You need to pull your weight. If you aren’t interested in this then raiding is simply not for you.

Avarice.2791:

STIHL.2489:

Avarice.2791:

@STIHL

It’s merely the fact that hard != excluded therefore your analogy is a fallacy..

Can we please stop this charade that Hard does not mean Exclusive. We all know it does.

Then you gotta stop pushing that analogy homie.

That doesn’t even make sense. We all know that Harder equates to being Exclusive, as such using the Analogy is correct.

STIHL.2489:

Avarice.2791:

STIHL.2489:

Avarice.2791:

@STIHL

It’s merely the fact that hard != excluded therefore your analogy is a fallacy..

Can we please stop this charade that Hard does not mean Exclusive. We all know it does.

Then you gotta stop pushing that analogy homie.

That doesn’t even make sense. We all know that Harder equates to being Exclusive, as such using the Analogy is correct.

http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/harder
http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/exclusive

Gotta disagree with you there my friend.

actually
http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/difficult may be better for “harder”

Actually forget both of those:
Difficult: needing much effort or skill to accomplish, deal with, or understand.
Exclusive: excluding or not admitting other things.

Similar but different

Avarice.2791:

STIHL.2489:

Avarice.2791:

STIHL.2489:

Avarice.2791:

@STIHL

It’s merely the fact that hard != excluded therefore your analogy is a fallacy..

Can we please stop this charade that Hard does not mean Exclusive. We all know it does.

Then you gotta stop pushing that analogy homie.

That doesn’t even make sense. We all know that Harder equates to being Exclusive, as such using the Analogy is correct.

Gotta disagree with you there my friend.

Ok Following that Logic.

We can remove any nation that making it a Easy will Destroy it, Invalidate it, or Ruin it, or Hurt it in any manner, as Easy is not Synonym, of Hurt, Destroy, Invalidate, or Ruin.

Also, Harder, is not Synonymous with Better, Fun, Rewarding, Accomplishment, Pride, Value, or Importance

So, by your own Logic, you have just invalidated every stand you put out to not make the raid a super easy cake walk.

If that is what your goal was, congratulations, you just shot your own argument apart.

Just look at the definitions. I blatantly disagree that difficult and exclusive are the same thing. Why? You can overcome difficulties. You can’t overcome content you are excluded from.

You may be excluded by the result of not being able to play your class to its maximum potential, but the funny thing about humans is we have the capability to learn. I do not see this as an excuse… At least it’s not on the game… It’s on the player.

Avarice.2791:

Just look at the definitions. I blatantly disagree that difficult and exclusive are the same thing. Why? You can overcome difficulties. You can’t overcome content you are excluded from.

Back when I was the Hardcore player, we would just say “Learn to Play”, and pass that off as the have all, end all of the discussion.

Truth is, it’s not that easy. As you learn about the world, you grow up and realize that some people have physical limitations, everything from arthritis to missing limbs, to simply not having the manual dexterity, and they know they will never ever, have the twitch control required to do this content. Some people have lives, they really could not sit around and devote the next 5 months to a single project, forsaking all other means of gaming, it simply was not going to happen. Sure, you can say “You’re Not being stopped” but in the end, the difficulty of the encounter is directly stopping them, demanding from them something they either can’t provide or, the Reward is not worth the price they will have to pay just to progress in what is to them, just a game, nothing more then a time passing hobby. Not something they wanted to turn into a part time job, or a means of self validation. Truth is, as you get involved in diverse Hobbies, and believe this or not, there are a lot of people who are into hobbies that they will never be good at, but enjoy doing it at their own slow and in some cases sloppy way, anyway. MMO’s are not an exception to this.

Now, I get that I am speaking into the void at this point. In the end, well, it’s not your choice or my choice what will happen, so this discussion is overt for me, as I see no further gain on my part for continuing it, I’ll leave with this final thought.

It’s not as simple as “Learn to Play”

Fyi the way I am trying to help you is not selfish. The mere fact that you expect to be successful in raids without putting in the work is selfish. You weren’t simply running an inefficient spec. You were running a spec that would literally inhibit some mechanics while putting a major crutch on the rest of the 9 players. You were personally causing failure because you set yourself up for failure.

Lol, I did change out of it when the point was made that our intended tank had much lower toughness. My point isn’t “I should be able to wear what I want in the current content and kitten everyone else,” that’s obviously selfish and I would never do that intentionally. My point is that I want a different game environment in which me wearing what I’ve got is not an actual problem, because everyone else is in “whatever” gear and that’s fine because we’ll still be beating the content anyway.

If you’re running D/D in open world then perhaps celestial gear would suit you more than toughness. Actually, vitality will assist you more than toughness. Oh, but that’s right you don’t like researching. Don’t worry dear, I’ll do it for you!

I had Vitality too, it wasn’t like I was running full Nomads or anything, I had Rabid boots, a PVT staff, a captain’s earring, and I think another couple random pieces. It works well in open world content, I can drop things without dropping myself. My Ele isn’t really my main anyway though, I mostly run Thief, but Thief isn’t super useful in a lot of the raid stuff.

If you really want to improve your game then shoot me a private message. I will personally help you.

If you really want to help me, then help me to do the things that I told you I want to do, don’t help me do the things you would like me to do. Look, tick off these boxes:

• I complete each raid boss in no more than ten attempts each from start to finish.

• I can bring any class, using whatever gear I have on hand. It may not be ideal, but it will be sufficient to the task.

• I am not being carried in any way by other players, they are performing roughly equal to me and we are sharing responsibility for the outcome.

If you can suggest a way to help me that ticks off ALL of these boxes, then yay!, you have actually helped me. If you can only think of ways to help me that ignore one or more of these boxes, then no, you’re just trying to help yourself.

Can we please stop this charade that Hard does not mean Exclusive. We all know it does.

Are you going to argue that PvP is bad content because it will eventually exclude you from high level play if your skill level cannot compete at top tier? You aren’t entitled to always win just because you purchased this game; you’re going to lose at times. For some reason this is deemed acceptable in PvP but highly offensive and outrageous in PvE. I’ll never understand why people think this is.

Nokaru.7831:

Can we please stop this charade that Hard does not mean Exclusive. We all know it does.

Are you going to argue that PvP is bad content because it will eventually exclude you from high level play if your skill level cannot compete at top tier? You aren’t entitled to always win just because you purchased this game; you’re going to lose at times. For some reason this is deemed acceptable in PvP but highly offensive and outrageous in PvE. I’ll never understand why people think this is.

Perhaps because there are other players in PvP, with equal entitlement to winning? Mobs don’t complain on forums.

Some players want an adrenaline rush. Some want to decompress (i.e., lose stress) after work. Adrenaline generates the opposite of decompression. The same content is not likely to appeal to both groups. The only real way to see eye to eye with either group is to put aside one’s own perspective about games and try to see what the other side wants.

In an ideal world, the two groups would not ever have to do the same stuff. The problem comes in because this is not an ideal world and the developer cannot constantly pump out stuff to keep everyone busy and happy. So, we see jealousy and demands for access to everything.

Look guys, the “difficult = exclusive” thing easy to parse.

All difficulty is graded on a curve.

Something cannot be considered “difficult” unless it is something most people cannot do. If everyone could do it, then it would be deemed “too easy” and a new level of difficulty would have to be established.

To claim that everyone could be on the other side of “difficult” content is like claiming that everyone could be “rich.” If everyone had $100m, then that would no longer be a valuable amount of money, and only people with trillions of dollars could be called “rich.”

Anyone attempting to claim that difficulty does not promote exclusivity is being deceptive. At best, they are self-deluded and truly believe something that is not true; at worst they understand the fallacy they’re perpetuating, but enjoy the outcome because it works to their benefit in some way.

In any case, you cannot have difficulty without exclusivity, the words are not synonyms, the definitions in dictionaries are different, but the latter is an inevitable result of the former.

This topic has gone so far of track that I am surprised it hasn’t been closed yet.

The story in the raid is not tied to the main story of HoT.

Second I do believe raids are good for this game. It gives another layer to this game that was much needed, a serious feel.

This conversation is indeed off the rails.

Regarding difficult v exclusive: We are arguing about semantics with no substance. I think we can agree that everyone has the potential to raid. I think we can also agree that not everyone is at that skill level.

Regarding gear: I think it’s fair to criticize having the wrong gear to raid. While I’m sure it’s possible to beat the bosses in whatever gear, it will not happen in a pug group or with inexperienced players. You can’t win pvp in whatever gear. You can’t win wvw in whatever gear. And you would be carried in instanced pve content in whatever gear.

Regarding alternatives to raids: There is tons of pve content at the easy mode raid skill level. An easy mode raid, with no reward and no difficulty, has no replayability. Other content, like dungeons, fractals, and open world, is more suited to the criteria you’re looking for.

Hard content in this game does not have an easy mode, because there is tons of other content. There was no easy mode liadri, because there were other bosses in the Queens gambit. There’s no easy mode arah, because there are easier dungeon paths to experience. There’s no easy mode not so secret jumping puzzle, because there are easier jumping puzzles. Similarly, there should be no easy mode raids, because there’s fractals, dungeons, and open world.

I agree that content has been irregular since HOT. No new dungeons or fractals. Fractal revamp a mess. Dungeon nerf. I think this is the real problem, not raids.

First of all, I am answering that yes raiding was good for the game since I have not posted in this thread yet.

Next, I would like to dispute the statement “Rewards for Raids are fine as long as they are cosmetic only.” Cosmetic rewards(hereafter Shiny) will not sustain raids. Once a raider has the Shiny or Shinies they want, most of them will quit raiding. We have already seen this with Dungeons and high level fractals. It has already been stated in this thread why developers want content they add to last near indefinitely, so Shinies alone will not sustain Raids.

I would also argue that most of the rewards, including legendary armor, for raids are just Shinies. This has been stated before but to reiterate Legendary Armor’s only advantage over Ascended is the free stat swap. For the vast amount of the player base, that is a worthless perk due to the current Rune/Sigil system. I would argue that the the only portion of the pve player base that has a need, and not having it be a mere convenience, for Stat Swapping is raiders due to it helping protect against new “meta prefixes” being added like Viper’s during HoT. Consequently, legendary armor, while still a Shiny, is a very good Raid reward.

Absurdo.8309:

This conversation is indeed off the rails.

Regarding difficult v exclusive: We are arguing about semantics with no substance. I think we can agree that everyone has the potential to raid. I think we can also agree that not everyone is at that skill level.

Regarding gear: I think it’s fair to criticize having the wrong gear to raid. While I’m sure it’s possible to beat the bosses in whatever gear, it will not happen in a pug group or with inexperienced players. You can’t win pvp in whatever gear. You can’t win wvw in whatever gear. And you would be carried in instanced pve content in whatever gear.

Regarding alternatives to raids: There is tons of pve content at the easy mode raid skill level. An easy mode raid, with no reward and no difficulty, has no replayability. Other content, like dungeons, fractals, and open world, is more suited to the criteria you’re looking for.

Hard content in this game does not have an easy mode, because there is tons of other content. There was no easy mode liadri, because there were other bosses in the Queens gambit. There’s no easy mode arah, because there are easier dungeon paths to experience. There’s no easy mode not so secret jumping puzzle, because there are easier jumping puzzles. Similarly, there should be no easy mode raids, because there’s fractals, dungeons, and open world.

I agree that content has been irregular since HOT. No new dungeons or fractals. Fractal revamp a mess. Dungeon nerf. I think this is the real problem, not raids.

I would like to interject a point a point. Following all your Previous Logic.

:IE:
You can have hard Jumping Puzzles because you have easy Jumping Puzzles
You can have Hard Dungeons Because You have easy Dungeons

The Logical Progression Should be.

You can have Hard raids Because You have Easy Raids

Which is.. badum-Tish!

What people are asking for.

STIHL.2489:

Absurdo.8309:

This conversation is indeed off the rails.

Regarding difficult v exclusive: We are arguing about semantics with no substance. I think we can agree that everyone has the potential to raid. I think we can also agree that not everyone is at that skill level.

Regarding gear: I think it’s fair to criticize having the wrong gear to raid. While I’m sure it’s possible to beat the bosses in whatever gear, it will not happen in a pug group or with inexperienced players. You can’t win pvp in whatever gear. You can’t win wvw in whatever gear. And you would be carried in instanced pve content in whatever gear.

Regarding alternatives to raids: There is tons of pve content at the easy mode raid skill level. An easy mode raid, with no reward and no difficulty, has no replayability. Other content, like dungeons, fractals, and open world, is more suited to the criteria you’re looking for.

Hard content in this game does not have an easy mode, because there is tons of other content. There was no easy mode liadri, because there were other bosses in the Queens gambit. There’s no easy mode arah, because there are easier dungeon paths to experience. There’s no easy mode not so secret jumping puzzle, because there are easier jumping puzzles. Similarly, there should be no easy mode raids, because there’s fractals, dungeons, and open world.

I agree that content has been irregular since HOT. No new dungeons or fractals. Fractal revamp a mess. Dungeon nerf. I think this is the real problem, not raids.

I would like to interject a point a point. Following all your Previous Logic.

:IE:
You can have hard Jumping Puzzles because you have easy Jumping Puzzles
You can have Hard Dungeons Because You have easy Dungeons

The Logical Progression Should be.

You can have Hard raids Because You have Easy Raids

Which is.. badum-Tish!

What people are asking for.

I actually agree. But the proper logical progression is that you have some raid bosses that are easier than others. Which we do – see vale guardian and bandit trio.

And, if you widen your scope to pve content in general, then I think it’s fair to present dungeons and fractals as the “easy” alternative instanced content to raids.

I really don’t understand this push to attach “exclusivity” to “difficulty” that’s been going on for the past few pages. The issue simply is that the raid is too hard for some people; that’s it. Why not focus on something productive, such as providing clear and concise feedback as to what makes raiding hard for you to get into? (Some have done this, but many have steered things way, way off-topic)

Nokaru.7831:

I really don’t understand this push to attach “exclusivity” to “difficulty” that’s been going on for the past few pages. The issue simply is that the raid is too hard for some people; that’s it. Why not focus on something productive, such as providing clear and concise feedback as to what makes raiding hard for you to get into? (Some have done this, but many have steered things way, way off-topic)

I think you have a valid point about the discussion. Here’s my thought/idea (that Ive posted in other threads):

I think the answer is simply to remove the enrage timer and replace it with a gold/silver/bronze reward system.

This would retain every bit of the difficulty we see in the current fight – and the exclusive reward – while allowing more leeway in terms of builds/group comps/skill levels for those who care more about the content than they do about the rewards.

Those that do all the research, enforce the zerker metas and analyze group composition like master strategists preparing to invade Russia would still be rewarded for that effort. In fact, this would allow the developers to add in even greater rewards for those that do this near flawlessly.

At the same time, however, groups of friends would not be as severely punished for wanting to bring those few casual friends who may enjoy playing a ranger in rabid gear or a confusion mesmer (or anything else that severely deviates from the accepted meta). They may not be able to beat the fight fast enough to warrant a full reward, but at least they could enjoy the fight mechanics and proceed through the content. And, I’m not talking about nerfing any of the other mechanics whatsoever. There would still be that learning and mastery phase – it just wouldn’t punish alternative builds and group compositions as strongly as the current system does.

It would also allow the developers to design future fights that are even more brutal and unforgiving, because they know that by doing so, they will not be shutting others out.

Yes, there are many who enjoy digging through metabattle and speed run videos to fine tune every aspect of their gameplay – but there are also many who just want to play and experience the interesting mechanics with slightly less pressure (or simply on the profession/build they enjoy most) – and, yes, that includes 10 man content.

Additionally, I think this could serve to offer a sense of progression to raids that is currently lacking. More serious groups working on getting gold would potentially have greater opportunity to experience and practice all mechanics as they work their way through beating the bronze and silver requirements.

I think a system like this would give the developers more opportunities to make fights even tougher than they are now while opening up the raiding scene to more players. That sounds like a win-win to me, but it will require raiders to concede some of the special status currently associated with that game mode (again, without conceding reward – I do believe those that put in the effort deserve greater cosmetic reward).

DrEckers.2039:

First of all, I am answering that yes raiding was good for the game since I have not posted in this thread yet.

Next, I would like to dispute the statement “Rewards for Raids are fine as long as they are cosmetic only.” Cosmetic rewards(hereafter Shiny) will not sustain raids. Once a raider has the Shiny or Shinies they want, most of them will quit raiding. We have already seen this with Dungeons and high level fractals. It has already been stated in this thread why developers want content they add to last near indefinitely, so Shinies alone will not sustain Raids.

I would also argue that most of the rewards, including legendary armor, for raids are just Shinies. This has been stated before but to reiterate Legendary Armor’s only advantage over Ascended is the free stat swap. For the vast amount of the player base, that is a worthless perk due to the current Rune/Sigil system. I would argue that the the only portion of the pve player base that has a need, and not having it be a mere convenience, for Stat Swapping is raiders due to it helping protect against new “meta prefixes” being added like Viper’s during HoT. Consequently, legendary armor, while still a Shiny, is a very good Raid reward.

In gear tier games, stat gains don’t sustain raids past the point where the player (or raid guild) is geared up, either. L. Armor by itself will not sustain raids past the point where players complete their sets. If content needs rewards to sustain it beyond the point where beating it becomes routine, new rewards would need to be introduced periodically. Unfortunately, developers rarely do so.

Dungeons in this game were popular long after they were ancient due to gold rewards. The drop in dungeon popularity when those rewards were reduced demonstrates this. Gold worked as a sustainable reward because gold can be used to get a lot of things players want.

As regards L. Armor being a good reward for raids. I don’t have a problem myself with L. Armor in raids. However, Asc. prefixes can be stat switched cheaply, just not on the fly. The runes are an issue, but unless you use an extractor, changing them out on L. Armor costs you the rune just as much as doing so on Asc.

Finally, the desire of professed non-raiders to get L. Armor is a symptom of the fact that Legendary whatevers are the main long term carrot the game offers. If the game offered diverse long-term rewards via diverse content, then everyone would have more to do and there would be less jealousy.

DrEckers.2039:

First of all, I am answering that yes raiding was good for the game since I have not posted in this thread yet.

Next, I would like to dispute the statement “Rewards for Raids are fine as long as they are cosmetic only.” Cosmetic rewards(hereafter Shiny) will not sustain raids. Once a raider has the Shiny or Shinies they want, most of them will quit raiding.

I believe that was for exclusive rewards only. Nobody so far claimed raids cannot have good, but nonexclusive rewards, and those should be enough for content longevity.

DrEckers.2039:

We have already seen this with Dungeons and high level fractals.

No, what you have seen with dungeons is that exclusives do not guarantee any form of longevity. What killed them was a nerf to the general gold rewards.

DrEckers.2039:

It has already been stated in this thread why developers want content they add to last near indefinitely, so Shinies alone will not sustain Raids.

I would also argue that most of the rewards, including legendary armor, for raids are just Shinies.

Ah, it seems then, that you in fact do not disagree, you’ve just misunderstood the point.

Yes, i agree, that for raid longevity good (nonexclusive) rewards are necessary, while exclusives aren’t. Thus legendary armor can be safely opened to non-raiders, as long as raiders will get increase in the value of normal rewards.

The raids might be fun if you are a part of a full group or at least 8-9 people that raid constantly together. If you don’t have that and you are forced raid with other pugs then the experience is pretty bad. The amount of success I had with lfg is so small compared to the number of tries. So under this circumstances the raids so far have been a waste of time, gold and completely unrewarding and frustrating, It doesn’t matter that you have the desire to them and invest time, gold and patience into them. If you can’t find another 9 people might as well play something else. Because of this I don’t think adding raids to gw2 was a good idea.

considering its now the only content in gw2, suuuure.

would I rather have dungeons/fractals, yes.

I actually agree. But the proper logical progression is that you have some raid bosses that are easier than others. Which we do – see vale guardian and bandit trio.

Vale Guardian is not that easy. The Bandit Trio might be, haven’t tried them yet, but they are locked behind Slothazor unless another player opens the way for you.

And, if you widen your scope to pve content in general, then I think it’s fair to present dungeons and fractals as the “easy” alternative instanced content to raids.

Nope.

Why not focus on something productive, such as providing clear and concise feedback as to what makes raiding hard for you to get into? (Some have done this, but many have steered things way, way off-topic)

We’ve done that, the general response is “well I don’t care that you’re having trouble, I’m not having trouble, just be me and you won’t have any problems.”

Dungeons in this game were popular long after they were ancient due to gold rewards. The drop in dungeon popularity when those rewards were reduced demonstrates this.

Don’t confuse participation with popularity. Just because people ran dungeons long after launch does not mean that they wanted to run dungeons, just that it was highly profitable to do so. It may be that the current situation is the more natural state, after artificial steroids have been removed.

Where’s the give and take when you feed us responses like this

I think I provide plenty of words for you to chew over, if I respond curtly to individual portions of your comments then it’s because those portions were preposterous and nothing productive could be said about them.

TexZero.7910:

It’s at the point where it’s almost better to ignore the post, because it’s painfully clear that productive discussion was never the intended design.

If there’s a filter function on this forum I need to find it. Thaddeus made a few decent responses to me but the thread just keeps going on and on, it feels like the thread is going too fast to actually post while keeping track of anything else.

Raids were the best thing that happened to this game for PvE.

I’m not sure how comparing easy mode raids to dungeons and fractals is preposterous. The content you desire already exists in the game.

Again, I ask where the enterance is to the Salvation past dungeon or fractal. I look on the wiki and the only listed dungeons I see are:
Ascalonian Catacombs, Caudecus’ Manor, Twilight Arbor, Sorrw’s Embrace, Citadel of Flame, Honor of the Waves, Crucible of Eternity, and Arah. The only Fractals I can find are Aquatic, Swamp, Uncategorized, Urban, Molten Furnace, Snowblind, Cliffside, Underground, Aether, Thaumanova, Volcanic, Mai Trin, Molten Bosses, and Solid Ocean Fractals.

None of these are Spirit Vale or Salvation Pass content at all.

I am not looking for “whatever” of equivalent difficulty to an easy mode raid, I am looking for an actual easy mode raid, the parameters of which I defined in some post that got swallowed in the morass of the megathread. Instead of offering me things that you want me to want, either offer me the things that I am actually asking me for, or be in open opposition. Don’t be disingenuous about “oh, you can already have what you want,” when what you offer is very clearly something different than what I asked for.

Ohoni.6057:

I am not looking for “whatever” of equivalent difficulty to an easy mode raid, I am looking for an actual easy mode raid, the parameters of which I defined in some post that got swallowed in the morass of the megathread.

Hypothetically; what if they had a separate raid which was the perfect difficulty for you, but was a different environment, different bosses, etc?

Hypothetically; what if they had a separate raid which was the perfect difficulty for you, but was a different environment, different bosses, etc?

Hypothetically, that might be interesting in and of itself, but it would not be a substitute for the easy mode raid wings I’m talking about. It would be a “different thing,” which is not the same as a “same thing.” There is plenty of content that is within my wheelhouse of difficulty, content that I’ve already done as much as it interests me to do. I’m looking for content with the same setting and combat mechanics as the hard mode raids, just with looser tolerances so that they are roughly equivalent in difficulty to dungeons and lower-level Fractals.

Absurdo.8309:

I’m not sure how comparing easy mode raids to dungeons and fractals is preposterous. The content you desire already exists in the game.

That has been answered many times already. Including to you personally. You just didn’t like the answer.

Sarrs.4831:

Hypothetically; what if they had a separate raid which was the perfect difficulty for you, but was a different environment, different bosses, etc?

If it offered me an alternate way to get at legendary armor, it would be okay, as it would fulfill both my wishes (being able to get LA without needing to do raids as they are now, and having a new content i can play in).
On the other hand, that would require more developer investment than easy mode raids idea, so it has a way lower chance of happening, unless raids get completely axed.

Ok, having read everything back and forth now. I am more convinced then ever, that Anet needs to put in a “Story Mode” for their Raid.

Not varying scales, not make a easier raid. But make a Dungeon Difficulty style Story Mode, for the casual player.

From everything I have read, and see, honestly, there is nothing gained by trying to conscript or coheres casuals players into doing what is hardcore content. Just as there was nothing gained from trying to enforce PvE players into doing WvW Content, and that was why they removed the WvW requirement from Map Completion, that same reason is why they should make a Story Mode for the Raid.

It’s not the raid that was a bad idea, it was trying to force everyone into the same skill bracket that was the bad idea.

And a side note, I would like to see some rewards given for WvW Map Completion, maybe put a Legendary Armor Series into WvW as well.

Astralporing.1957:

If it offered me an alternate way to get at legendary armor, it would be okay, as it would fulfill both my wishes (being able to get LA without needing to do raids as they are now, and having a new content i can play in).

To continue the line of inquiry; it provides legendary armor, but not with the same appearance as the legendary armor from Spirit Vale/Salvation Pass. Would this be up your alley?

Astralporing.1957:

On the other hand, that would require more developer investment than easy mode raids idea, so it has a way lower chance of happening, unless raids get completely axed.

Completely ignoring the issue of resources, are there other negatives?

STIHL.2489:

From everything I have read, and see, honestly, there is nothing gained by trying to conscript or coheres casuals players into doing what is hardcore content.

I have to disagree with this, honestly. If the uptake rate is higher than the rates in other MMOs, then it seems to me there’s quite a bit of benefit, especially in an MMO like GW2 which is usually considered to be one of the more casual MMOs on the market.

If providing that content to casuals wasn’t viable, then why does it have such a high rate of participation?

Sarrs.4831:

If providing that content to casuals wasn’t viable, then why does it have such a high rate of participation?

What is the rate of participation?

Astralporing.1957:

Absurdo.8309:

I’m not sure how comparing easy mode raids to dungeons and fractals is preposterous. The content you desire already exists in the game.

That has been answered many times already. Including to you personally. You just didn’t like the answer.

Honestly, I haven’t heard a response to this argument. The only answer I get is “No, I want easy mode raids.” Despite that other content — like arah, like liadri, like jumping puzzles — has no easy mode.

Arah was arguably the hardest instanced content prior to raids. It has important lore elements and unique drops. Its tokens are required for bifrost. Seems like the current raid situation to me.

I’m not opposed to eventually adding an alternative method to acquiring legendary armor (like pvp tracks were added for dungeons). But that doesn’t mean that anet needs to waste developer resources to produce easy mode raids, when there is already so much content that fills that criteria.

Manasa Devi.7958:

What is the rate of participation?

I’d have to find the source, but iirc it’s higher than it is in other MMO raids.

How do they calculate that rate? Do they count people who entered a cleared instance to look at the scenery?

Sarrs.4831:

Astralporing.1957:

If it offered me an alternate way to get at legendary armor, it would be okay, as it would fulfill both my wishes (being able to get LA without needing to do raids as they are now, and having a new content i can play in).

To continue the line of inquiry; it provides legendary armor, but not with the same appearance as the legendary armor from Spirit Vale/Salvation Pass. Would this be up your alley?

That’s a tricky question, because i don’t actually know how that armor would look like, but i think i can safely say, that if there wasn’t a visible difference in armor quality, that would at least partially satisfy me. Although i dislike the idea of full skin exclusivity locked behind hard content, it’s nowhere close to my dislike of locking out a whole category of gear.

Sarrs.4831:

Astralporing.1957:

On the other hand, that would require more developer investment than easy mode raids idea, so it has a way lower chance of happening, unless raids get completely axed.

Completely ignoring the issue of resources, are there other negatives?

If we ignore the matter of resources? I’d still dislike the idea of skin exclusivity, but i am aware we’re not going to ever get to agreement on that point, so i guess no. No other negatives i can think of.

There’s also the stat exclusivity from the new stat spread trinkets available only through raids. But on that point Anet already mentioned they are Doing Something (not at a satisfying pace, but at least they are aware of the problem and seem to agree that it IS a problem, so i guess that will have to suffice for now)

Who cares about legendary armor? Just make is tradable like other legendaries, if it’s a debating point. Everyone will be happy.

Rednik.3809:

Who cares about legendary armor? Just make is tradable like other legendaries, if it’s a debating point. Everyone will be happy.

I would be ok with this. But I don’t think our viewpoint is in vogue at the moment. People want prestige, and acquiring legendary armor through raids is a prestige event. I understand and am ok with this line of reasoning. Given that there’s no stat increase over ascended.

Also, the gorseval infusion is tradable, and people seem ok with it.

Absurdo.8309:

I would be ok with this. But I don’t think our viewpoint is in vogue at the moment. People want prestige, and acquiring legendary armor through raids is a prestige event. I understand and am ok with this line of reasoning. Given that there’s no stat increase over ascended.

Also, the gorseval infusion is tradable, and people seem ok with it.

Skins and titles are prestige event, not gear. Making 18 different legendary pieces locked behind raids is beyond stupid and contradicts whole GW2 ideology.