Guild Wars 2

Ohoni.6057:

Because it is a lower stress environment!

If you want a lower stress raiding environment, try alcohol.

Yes, I’m sure they’ll put that in the tips. “Have you tried taking a shot every time you wipe?”

I’m not joking. If your problem is that you’re stressing out over mechanics and DPS and that is negatively impacting your play, have a drink. I got my best Socrethar, Tyrant and Iskar parses while I was drinking.

I’d prefer altered gameplay to mind altering drugs, thanks.

Ohoni.6057:

I’m boggled.

I don’t know what exactly you can’t grasp, it’s not rocket science. You fail at the Split phase of the Vale Guardian for a variety of reasons, in that case you repeat the split phase of the Vale Guardian until you master it. In your “easy mode”, you will finish the entire fight every single time, even if you mess up during that split phase you originally have issues with, and not repeat anything, so in the end you learn absolutely nothing. 10 minutes of your life wasted.

Because it is a lower stress environment!

No. If you reset because you practice it and reset because you wipe, it’s the same thing. You still repeat the content. The stress comes from being defeated and watching a gray screen compared to a suicide to reset it?

But the part you fail at in one run might not be the part where you really need work, it might just be a part where someone, maybe not even yourself, made a stupid error.

Maybe in the case of Vale Guardian that would be true but in the case of Gorseval it’s irrelevant because mishandling earlier phases can cause wipes at later phases. For example, how you handle the orbs at phase 2 can mean defeat or victory in phase 3 of Gorseval. You need to repeat the early phases every single time because they set-up the rest of the fight. If you are having trouble in phase 3, maybe it’s because your phase 2 isn’t perfect? That’s more often than not the actual case with the raid, if you do phase 2 absolutely perfect, then phase 3 of Gorseval isn’t as hard. A couple of mistakes in phase 2 can make phase 3 much much harder. So your entire idea of practicing specific parts of the Raid is moot. Phase 3 isn’t always the same, it depends on Phase 2, can’t do them separately. You can’t “practice” them separately.

Sarrs.4831:

I’m not joking. If your problem is that you’re stressing out over mechanics and DPS and that is negatively impacting your play, have a drink.

Which will negatively impact his play even more? Great suggestion.
Also, you are aware that for a many, many people drinking would have the exact opposite effect (making you rage even more)?

maddoctor.2738:

Because it is a lower stress environment!

No. If you reset because you practice it and reset because you wipe, it’s the same thing. You still repeat the content. The stress comes from being defeated and watching a gray screen compared to a suicide to reset it?

Why would you suicide? Those that are so hardcore that would suicide on the least error would indeed be better served doing the hard mode right away, but let’s be honest, there aren’t that many of them. Most would keep doing (and finishing) the easy one week after week (getting some rewards on the way), until one day they would decide they feel good enough that they can try the hard mode too.

Astralporing.1957:

Which will negatively impact his play even more? Great suggestion.

If your play starts getting worse as soon as you have a sip of liquor idk what to say.

If the problem is your performance is getting worse because of jitters- you’re screwing up your rotation, you’re missing calls, you’re missing mechanics- then it can help you settle that down, and frankly have more fun. I’m not saying get kittened as a fart- Just have one or two.

Astralporing.1957:

Also, you are aware that for a many, many people drinking would have the exact opposite effect (making you rage even more)?

Which can be very productive in a raid environment. At worst, it’s very funny on the forums, which is a win for me.

I don’t know what exactly you can’t grasp, it’s not rocket science. You fail at the Split phase of the Vale Guardian for a variety of reasons, in that case you repeat the split phase of the Vale Guardian until you master it. In your “easy mode”, you will finish the entire fight every single time, even if you mess up during that split phase you originally have issues with, and not repeat anything, so in the end you learn absolutely nothing. 10 minutes of your life wasted.

Again, that’s not how learning works. That’s not how any of this works.

Leaning doesn’t require you to back up and immediately try again. You can learn things from doing it, failing, and moving on. Obviously, repetition in some form is useful, but going 1111111121111211111211112112121112112111231123111231231123112312111231123123123-win, while one way to learn, is not necessarily a superior way to learn to 123123123123123123123123etc.-win. So long as you have the same goal, to complete it without error, forcing players to repeat the early steps to reach the later steps is not necessarily ideal for all players.

Now, I think that the absolute ideal teaching method, if not the ideal gameplay experience, would be the “split fight,” where each phase can be accessed independently, so if you got to phase 3 and failed at it, you could skip straight to phase 3 and retry it again and again until you got it, that would at least be better than the current model, but the easy mode method would be the best combination of teaching method and enjoyable gaming experience, and would be easier to implement.

For me at least. You never have to agree that it would be the best method for you, it never has to be the best method for you, and if you don’t like it, you never have to use it. It is for other people who might be different than you.

No. If you reset because you practice it and reset because you wipe, it’s the same thing.

To you? Maybe, I can’t say, any more than you could claim it’s the same to me. We are different people who react differently to things. To me it is definitely not the same thing, and nothing you can say or do would ever make them the same thing.

The stress comes from being defeated and watching a gray screen compared to a suicide to reset it?

I wouldn’t use a suicide. I think better would be a challenge mote, like with Story Mode bosses. The group goes in, the group screws up a bunch, but wins. The group is training for a hard mode, knows that wasn’t good enough, so they hit a challenge mote, resets the fight, and go back in. The advantage is that since the earlier portions are lower risk, they don’t need to do those perfectly. Let’s say they do quite well on the first and second phases, but really screw up the third. Instead of having to really focus on the first and second phases the next try, they have the option to play them sloppy, saving their focus for the round they really messed up on, and while their first and second round performances in that attempt would never be good enough for hard, it does get them to the third round quickly and relaxed, so that they can focus on nailing the mechanics of that element. And then maybe the next time the work on getting all three rounds into shape. It’s more flexible to the things THEY want to focus on, rather than always having to focus on all aspects at once.

Maybe in the case of Vale Guardian that would be true but in the case of Gorseval it’s irrelevant because mishandling earlier phases can cause wipes at later phases. For example, how you handle the orbs at phase 2 can mean defeat or victory in phase 3 of Gorseval.

In hard mode, perhaps, but in easy mode, not necessarily. You could screw up the orbs in round 2, but when you get to round 3 it wouldn’t be an insurmountable problem. You’d know that eventually you’d need to do better, but for this round, you’re still ok, you’ve just got to work around it and learn what you can of the phase-three mechanics.

Also, you are aware that for a many, many people drinking would have the exact opposite effect (making you rage even more)?

To be fair, I am actually a pretty mellow drunk, I just don’t get drunk very often. I prefer to keep a clear head, even if it’s a less than ideal head to start with. I never want to use drugs as a crutch.

Ohoni.6057:

Again, that’s not how learning works. That’s not how any of this works.

You can’t move on to higher phases if you haven’t understood the basics. You have a part that you can’t beat, then you do that path til you nail it. Going further is pointless if said part is a requirement for the next one.

So long as you have the same goal, to complete it without error, forcing players to repeat the early steps to reach the later steps is not necessarily ideal for all players.

You really didn’t read any of what I posted right? Who said anything about repeating earlier steps? In your idea if you are failing at phase 2, you will do 123123123123 while all you need to train is phase 2. You will do the entire fight every single time, wasting 10 minutes of your life, just to practice one part that you are having trouble with. Excluding actual mechanics problems and phases being requirements for next ones (next topic below) the only way your idea has any kind of merit, is if you are only having a problem with the last bit of the fight alone. What about everything else? Or you are saying only the last part of the fights is problematic and the rest of the fights are easy already? In that case there is no need for an easy mode at all. The earlier phases are so easy that they are your easy mode.

The group goes in, the group screws up a bunch, but wins. The group is training for a hard mode, knows that wasn’t good enough, so they hit a challenge mote, resets the fight, and go back in.

And how is that different to wiping? In both cases you reset the fight. We are talking about after you get your easy mode rewards.

In hard mode, perhaps, but in easy mode, not necessarily. You could screw up the orbs in round 2, but when you get to round 3 it wouldn’t be an insurmountable problem. You’d know that eventually you’d need to do better, but for this round, you’re still ok, you’ve just got to work around it and learn what you can of the phase-three mechanics.

So you will learn absolutely nothing about the actual fight. Because handling the orbs at phase 2 is essential to phase 3 success. Even more than knowing how the new mechanic of phase 3 work. Same goes with not screwing up dps and using all the updrafts before phase 3, that’s not possible in the actual raid, but in an easy mode it could easily happen.

You can’t move on to higher phases if you haven’t understood the basics.

Sure, but failing at the basics does not mean you don’t understand the basics. Sometimes it just means you got sloppy. Or in the case of a ten man raid, maybe you understand the basics perfectly well, but some other guy keeps getting sloppy, preventing you getting past them. If your goal is to improve your skill, it helps immensely when other people can’t prevent you from getting to the part that you need to work on.

You really didn’t read any of what I posted right? Who said anything about repeating earlier steps? In your idea if you are failing at phase 2, you will do 123123123123 while all you need to train is phase 2. You will do the entire fight every single time, wasting 10 minutes of your life, just to practice one part that you are having trouble with.

But you wouldn’t have to fail and repeat phase 1 a bunch of times either. it would take no more time to play 123123123 than it would to do 111211212, and you’d get only a little more practice with phase 2 the second way, while having to keep focused on getting phase 1 right, instead of the first way, where you could slack off on 1, still get to 2 and focus on it, and then roll into 3, which would also help you focus your phase 2 skills. Who knows, you might do really well at phase 3, in which case phase 2 would be a breeze the next time.

the only way your idea has any kind of merit, is if you are only having a problem with the last bit of the fight alone.

Again, you need to stop that.

Stop talking as if what is merit to you is merit for everyone. I have told you what is merit for me. I am Right on that, and you are Wrong if you choose to disagree. There is no argument to be had on that point. You have two options, to either CARE which method is best for me, or not care, you do not have any say in which method actually IS best for me.

I will no longer entertain your delusion that one size fits all, and any attempt to engage me on that topic will be ignored.

And how is that different to wiping?

Because winning is different than losing. Again, maybe you don’t get it, maybe you never will, but luckily enough, you never have to and it makes no difference if you do not. Just understand that to some people, who may not be you, there is a difference, just as to a colorblind person there may not be any difference in color between an apple and a lime, and yet, there is a difference to others.

So you will learn absolutely nothing about the actual fight. Because handling the orbs at phase 2 is essential to phase 3 success.

And you’ll try to get them better the next time around, but in the meantime, you’re on phase 3 and doing your best to learn the mechanics unique to phase 3. Each cycle through you’ll do ALL phases slightly better, rather than just getting one phase slightly better until you get past it to the next one.

Ohoni.6057:

If your goal is to improve your skill, it helps immensely when other people can’t prevent you from getting to the part that you need to work on.

That’s not possible. The fight is a team effort, the TEAM needs to win, not the individual.

But you wouldn’t have to fail and repeat phase 1 a bunch of times either. it would take no more time to play 123123123 than it would to do 111211212

You do know that the phases are split in 33% of the time approximately?

Again, you need to stop that.

No I won’t. Your idea works only if you are having trouble with the last phase alone and fails on anything else.

Because winning is different than losing.

But you are WINNING NOTHING. Really how is something so basic, so complex for you to understand?

And you’ll try to get them better the next time around, but in the meantime, you’re on phase 3 and doing your best to learn the mechanics unique to phase 3. Each cycle through you’ll do ALL phases slightly better, rather than just getting one phase slightly better until you get past it to the next one.

That’s not how it works I already explained this. There is absolutely no point in even considering doing phase 3 if you fail at phase 2. Because next time you do it, phase 3 will be completely different.

All I understand from your posts is that you want to skip everything and go to the last phase for “Reasons” and ignore repetition of earlier ones, completely missing their importance as setting stones for the next ones.

You just want easy access to the rewards without the need to rely on others to get them, forgetting what team work means. You are afraid others will fail and cause you to fail too, and you want to be in control. You don’t like losing if others mess up. Not everything has to be about randoms coming together to defeat content. Not everything has to be about YOU. Sometimes it’s about a team working together to defeat content.

Well maybe it’s time to stop being so selfish and have everything about YOU and try to think about it as a team effort.

That’s not possible. The fight is a team effort, the TEAM needs to win, not the individual.

And yet learning is an individual effort. If I’m with a locked-in guild team then fair enough, we’re only as strong as our weakest link and need to bring him up to speed, but if we’re talking about pugs, the team I’m on today might not be the one I’m on tomorrow, so what really matters is the skills I acquire to bring to that future team. If a player is holding me back from that progress, and he might not be on that future team, then that is slowing me down. That comes off as selfish, and I really am willing to be helpful to others along the way, I’m just pointing out the selfish side of the issue, because it is a factor worth considering.

You do know that the phases are split in 33% of the time approximately?

Yes.

But you are WINNING NOTHING. Really how is something so basic, so complex for you to understand?

and again, I wish you could understand, but ultimately you understanding is not important and I’ve exhausted my resources trying to explain it to you. Just accept as a fact, whether you understand it or not, that to some people, winning and then going back in to try again IS a more fulfilling experience than losing and trying again. Again, nothing you can say would make that any less true, your only option is to understand it or not.

You just want easy access to the rewards without the need to rely on others to get them, forgetting what team work means. You are afraid others will fail and cause you to fail too, and you want to be in control. You don’t like losing if others mess up. Not everything has to be about randoms coming together to defeat content. Not everything has to be about YOU. Sometimes it’s about a team working together to defeat content.

At least partially true. A few that you missed are that not only do I not want others to fail, causing me to wipe, but I also don’t want the pressure of me potentially failing, and causing others to wipe, even if they did it right. I want as much as possible for me to be responsible for me, for good or for ill, and for other players to only make me more likely to succeed, and me more likely for them to succeed, rather than for either of us to potentially hold the other back.

I understand that you don’t feel this way, and for this, and many other reasons, easy mode may never be necessary for you, may never be something you want anything part of, and that’s ok. If it’s not for you then it’s not for you, just as traditional raiding is definitely not for me, but that doesn’t mean that there aren’t people who would benefit from Easy mode raiding and enjoy it.

Ohoni.6057:

And yet learning is an individual effort.

I want as much as possible for me to be responsible for me, for good or for ill, and for other players to only make me more likely to succeed, and me more likely for them to succeed, rather than for either of us to potentially hold the other back.

Learning a Raid encounter is not an individual effort. You need to learn how to operate as a team and if you really want to be helpful try doing the harder roles. If your teammate that is supposed to heal doesn’t heal very well, try out healing yourself. A raid doesn’t succeed by individual skill alone, it’s a mix of skill, build, proper composition and even proper gear. In one Raid group you will do this, in the other you might do something completely different.

No composition, no build, no skill, just come as you want and let’s succeed in anything mentality work in the open world. But only to some extent, there are already events in the open world that certain individuals go out of their way to perform roles in order for them to be successful. And in some of them, the community simply fails because they are used to the idea of “come as you want”

Sadly, your “easy mode” won’t teach you any of the most important aspects of the Raid. It won’t teach you party compositions, it won’t teach you proper builds. It won’t teach you anything other than how to deal with some specific Raid mechanics (and that only by scrapping the surface)

It’s only a way to get the Raid rewards, don’t delude yourself otherwise.

Just accept as a fact, whether you understand it or not, that to some people, winning and then going back in to try again IS a more fulfilling experience than losing and trying again. Again, nothing you can say would make that any less true, your only option is to understand it or not.

I guess the earth is a cube. Who knew?

Zenith.7301:

RustyMech.9876:

The raids were fun to me for all of about a week, now it is just content that I do not bother with. It’s not “bad”, but boring.

Unlike dungeons, it’s content you don’t really repeat on a daily basis, and the rewards by comparison for time and effort spent compared to what dungeons were pre-nerf are pretty bad.

But then, in-game rewards in this game are bad by default in order to drive their gem to gold real money conversions.

Every boss could drop 100 gold and I would still find it boring. Fun is it’s own reward, why do you think people like to do WvW or PvP?

Dadnir.5038:

Lightsbane.9012:

the rewards given for completing a raid in the time it takes to complete them is better spent farming the silverwastes for profit instead.
the reason i don’t think raids work for GW2 is because of their point: legendary armor. not only is it not obtainable right now, but it’s just a skin. you’ll have to do a bit more convincing to make me want to do this kind of content.
think of what raids in other games reward you with, then compare them to GW2’s rewards for raiding. they are minimal to nothing in comparison.

I’m affraid that you completly missed the point of “legendary items”. There are not “just a skin”. They are usefull item that you can adapt to your build as you wish, whenever and wherever you want. Skin is just a very tiny part of what make a legendary.

You think i made twilight because it can change stats o_0, roflmao
By the time you make your legendary you can get 6 sets of ascended gear ready which would be cheaper
Ppl make it for its skin, there is no point of putting so much effort and being nerdrage for an item you have no idea what it looks like lol

JVJD.4912:

Ppl make it for its skin, there is no point of putting so much effort and being nerdrage for an item you have no idea what it looks like lol

Due to Anet’s glacier development speed (and their resistance to changing things once they’ve done them), the moment we’ll learn how it looks like it will be way too late to make any suggestions, because we’d wait years for any effect.
Besides, skin is only part of the equation. For most people in this discussion (on both sides of it) the fact that it is a different tier from ascended does matter. Why it matters is different in each case, but that doesn’t stop that difference from being important.

Learning a Raid encounter is not an individual effort. You need to learn how to operate as a team and if you really want to be helpful try doing the harder roles.

But again, the team you have today may not be the team you have tomorrow, so if you want to get consistently better results, improving your own strengths is the most important part.

No composition, no build, no skill, just come as you want and let’s succeed in anything mentality work in the open world.

Or in Easy mode raids, which is what many of us want.

Sadly, your “easy mode” won’t teach you any of the most important aspects of the Raid. It won’t teach you party compositions, it won’t teach you proper builds. It won’t teach you anything other than how to deal with some specific Raid mechanics (and that only by scrapping the surface)

And it has no need to teach me any of that stuff, because I have metabattle and youtube for that. That’s all head knowledge, stuff you can pick up before you ever even enter the raid, and stuff that even Easy mode players should know going in, even if they decide to ignore it. That the easy mode raid would teach you, IF you chose to treat it as a training exercise (your choice), is the muscle memory, reaction time sort of skills that you need practical experience to learn.

It’s only a way to get the Raid rewards, don’t delude yourself otherwise.

For some, probably, nothing wrong with that if it’s what makes them happy, but it does still have value as a teaching aid for those who seek to use it as such.

Ohoni.6057:

But again, the team you have today may not be the team you have tomorrow, so if you want to get consistently better results, improving your own strengths is the most important part.

Now this is a rostering problem that you’re looking at.

If you’re tackling the content as its intended, in a raid group with a more or less fixed raid team, you will have the same team today as you have tomorrow. There is variation as benchers move in and out, and as new team members enter and old team members leave, but your raid team usually stays pretty fixed in a scheduled raid team.

Not having a consistent team is a risk you’re accepting when you PUG anything. Dungeons, PvP, raids, fractals, everything has this. That’s no reason to change the mechanics of these modes.

This doesn’t really have any bearing on a game mode which is intended to PUG (again we have to go back to the open-world PvE content but you’ve already said you’re not interested in going there). But the assertion that “you may not have the same raid team” means that you’re not addressing the content as it’s intended.

If you’re tackling the content as its intended, in a raid group with a more or less fixed raid team, you will have the same team today as you have tomorrow.

But again, that is an unrealistic goal for this content. If that’s what the Hard mode expects, then that’s fine, but then you can’t claim that the hard mode is “open to everyone,” and an alternative to that IS warranted. Real players have real lives, and can’t be responsible to always be available to raid when the other members of their team are. They need the flexibility to come and go without disappointing nine other people. They need the flexibility to be able to raid when it is convenient for them to spend that time and effort.

You can’t simultaneously make the argument that "raids place this, and this, and this, and this burden on the player, " and ALSO “and that’s ok, no alternative to that is necessary.” Either the one and only version of raids is flexible enough to adapt to a wide range of players, OR there needs to be alternate versions of raids that are more flexible to their varying needs.

Ohoni.6057:

But again, that is an unrealistic goal for this content.

No, it is. It’s not unrealistic for content to expect you to have some friends. It’s an MMO after all.

Ohoni.6057:

and an alternative to that IS warranted.

Value judgment which has been dismantled repeatedly before.

Ohoni.6057:

Real players have real lives

Implying that people who can raid don’t have real lives. For someone who complains about exclusionary raid groups you sure are quick to bat when you have the opportunity to insult people.

Ohoni.6057:

and can’t be responsible to always be available to raid when the other members of their team are. They need the flexibility to come and go without disappointing nine other people. They need the flexibility to be able to raid when it is convenient for them to spend that time and effort.

This is called a bench. If you have a competent raid team, you’ll have one that you can sit on.

Even then, there are better options than what you suggest when a raid member wants to sit out, like a variable raid size.

Ohoni.6057:

You can’t simultaneously make the argument that "raids place this, and this, and this, and this burden on the player, " and ALSO “and that’s ok, no alternative to that is necessary.”

Uh, yes I can. I don’t see anything exclusive about those two positions.

Ohoni.6057:

Either the one and only version of raids is flexible enough to adapt to a wide range of players, OR there needs to be alternate versions of raids that are more flexible to their varying needs.

But there are already multiple forms of content that aren’t flexible enough to adapt to a wide range of players. There is no structured high-difficulty version of the Vinewrath. Dungeons have fixed difficulty levels. The only case you can make is Fractals, which are completely in the toilet at the moment. How can you make this case when almost every other form of content in the entire game does not have multimodal play, and the one which does is currently public enemy no.1? Spoiler: the answer is self interest

No, it is. It’s not unrealistic for content to expect you to have some friends. It’s an MMO after all.

GW2 is entirely about making everyone who says “it’s an MMO after all” look the fool.

It’s the MMO for people who don’t like how MMOs typically operate.

How can you make this case when almost every other form of content in the entire game does not have multimodal play, and the one which does is currently public enemy no.1?

Because the basal mode of all other content is within the reasonable achievability of the average player. It all has a generally equivalent difficulty baseline. If you can play most of the game, you can play almost all the game, with the exception of the higher Fractal tiers (as you note), and the raids. If the argument is that raids have absolutely no need for multiple difficulties, then they only way that works is if that one difficulty it has is the same basal level of difficulty as the other content in the game, the difficulty that the majority of the population finds comfortably challenging. If they want to have A mode that is well above that basal level of difficulty, then it needs to offer alternatives to the rest of the plaeyrs.

Pick one, OR the other to defend, I honestly don’t care which, “neither” will never hold.

Ohoni.6057:

GW2 is entirely about making everyone who says “it’s an MMO after all” look the fool.

Back to insults. Good on you.

Ohoni.6057:

It’s the MMO for people who don’t like how MMOs typically operate.

In your opinion. Again; a value judgment with no substantiation. In reality, GW2 only makes relatively minor direction changes from modern MMOs, the only particularly significant divergence being a static stat cap.

Ohoni.6057:

Because the basal mode of all other content is within the reasonable achievability of the average player. It all has a generally equivalent difficulty baseline. If you can play most of the game, you can play almost all the game, with the exception of the higher Fractal tiers (as you note), and the raids. If the argument is that raids have absolutely no need for multiple difficulties, then they only way that works is if that one difficulty it has is the same basal level of difficulty as the other content in the game, the difficulty that the majority of the population finds comfortably challenging. If they want to have A mode that is well above that basal level of difficulty, then it needs to offer alternatives to the rest of the plaeyrs.

Firstly, this isn’t true. If you’re a scrublord, you’re going to have a rough time doing the harder dungeon paths like Aetherpath or Arah P4.

Secondly, you’re assuming that all content needs to cater to the lowest common denominator when that’s not true. You haven’t established that causal link. But we’ve told you all this already but you don’t get it.

Ohoni: Basically you’re trying to compare the content of the raid to that of something like Queensdale or any other open-world map. I’m sorry, but that’s just ridiculous. It’s not what raids were meant to be.

I suggest you just read this blog post if you want to understand what the goal and premise of raids are. (Link) I’m sure you’ll cherry pick something out of there to say how wrong it is, but the spirit of the blog post is very clear:

You asked for the ultimate challenging content in Guild Wars 2—challenges that would put your skills to the test and push you and your friends to the edge to achieve victory. Now the answer is here. Today at PAX Prime, we announced that the “challenging group content” that we said would arrive with Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns™ is Raids!

Secondly, you’re assuming that all content needs to cater to the lowest common denominator when that’s not true. You haven’t established that causal link. But we’ve told you all this already but you don’t get it.

Agree to disagree then. You have your own idea of how GW2 works, I have mine, and I doubt you could ever be convinced to change your mind, so we’ll have to see which of us turns out to be right in the end. I would tell you how it’ll turn out, but spoilers.

Ohoni.6057:

Agree to disagree then. You have your own idea of how GW2 works, I have mine, and I doubt you could ever be convinced to change your mind, so we’ll have to see which of us turns out to be right in the end. I would tell you how it’ll turn out, but spoilers.

So long as you’re having fun man, there’s no need to get bent out of shape over raids, there’s tons of content in the game for all difficulty ranges.

So long as you’re having fun man, there’s no need to get bent out of shape over raids, there’s tons of content in the game for all difficulty ranges.

Not the issue, which you know because you’ve been reading this thread, where the actual issues have been discussed on numerous occasions. Look, if you’re right, and ANet is indefinitely fine with raids being the bastion of “the right sort of players” and not the place for “the rabble,” then raids will continue exactly as they have been, and you’ll get to continue enjoying them exactly as much as you have been.

If, on the other hand, Anet now or in the future (or in the recent past) decides that this is an unsustainable, wasteful model, and that they could get a lot more bang for their buck by expanding raids to be more accommodating to the majority of players, then one of three things would occur:

• A. They leave the raids completely alone, continue developing and supporting them as intended, but also provide some form of easy mode raid that borrows as much as possible from the existing one while providing a more inclusive challenge level. People who like raids as they are could continue to play raids as they are, no changes, while people who wanted a lower stress environment would have that option, everybody wins.

• B. They decide not to make multiple difficulty modes, and just nerf the existing raids, and future raids, down to a level closer to what an “easy” raid would be, opening it up to the masses, but no longer having any version that is truly for “the right sort of players.” They’d be left with maybe some tough achievements or something. More people would come out ahead than if they did nothing, but it would leave raiders without their hardcore challenge.

• C. They decide to do neither of the above, that fixing raids wouldn’t be worth the hassle, so while the existing raids would not be altered, they would pull back resources on future raids, either not releasing them at all, or just releasing them much more slowly and randomly, as those developers are assigned to other, more general purpose tasks. The raiding scene in winter of 2017 would look like the dungeon scene of winter 2016.

If I’m right about which way they’ll go, then you would want to be part of the conversation, you would want to help to shape a future that you’re the most comfortable with out of those options.

If you’re right, you have absolutely nothing to worry about, so don’t worry, because you know that you’re right and I’m wrong.

Right?

Ohoni.6057:

Not the issue, which you know because you’ve been reading this thread

Haha, no I haven’t

Ohoni.6057:

If, on the other hand, Anet now or in the future (or in the recent past) decides that this is an unsustainable, wasteful model, and that they could get a lot more bang for their buck by expanding raids to be more accommodating to the majority of players

Raids have already exceeded their target participation rates by ANet’s own admission

Ohoni.6057:

If you’re right, you have absolutely nothing to worry about, so don’t worry, because you know that you’re right and I’m wrong.

Right?

Yeah. But I know you enjoy making these threads and I enjoy participating in them. Let’s not peek behind the curtain and ruin the fun.

Raids have already exceeded their target participation rates by ANet’s own admission

That’s not what they said. What they said was that they were doing better than many other MMOs, which is actually a pretty low bar to jump. Whether that number is actually where they want it to be, or might want it to be in future, is unknown.

Yeah. But I know you enjoy making these threads and I enjoy participating in them. Let’s not peek behind the curtain and ruin the fun.

So what you’re saying is that you have no interest in constructively participating in the discussion, but want to post anyway? I believe there’s a term for that sort of behavior.

Ohoni.6057:

That’s not what they said. What they said was that they were doing better than many other MMOs, which is actually a pretty low bar to jump. Whether that number is actually where they want it to be, or might want it to be in future, is unknown.

The logical inference being that they thought “hey raids have this participation rate in other games, they’ll have a similar rate in GW2”. The boss gave the go-ahead with that information, and raids have had a higher rate. Pretty straightforward.

Ohoni.6057:

So what you’re saying is that you have no interest in constructively participating in the discussion, but want to post anyway? I believe there’s a term for that sort of behavior.

TIL having fun is against the rules

Look man if you’re gonna report me, report me. If you don’t think my posts have merit then you shouldn’t be engaging me. Something something courage convictions. But frankly, I have a hard time thinking someone would push two threads to 11 pages and 14 pages respectively if they didn’t enjoy it on some level.

Sarrs.4831:

their target participation rates by ANet’s own admission

Something they claim is still worth anything to you? Poor soul.

Manasa Devi.7958:

Something they claim is still worth anything to you? Poor soul.

Why would they lie tho

The logical inference being that they thought “hey raids have this participation rate in other games, they’ll have a similar rate in GW2”. The boss gave the go-ahead with that information, and raids have had a higher rate. Pretty straightforward.

You’re assuming.

Knowing that GW2’s audience was very different than other games, they may have (should have) hoped that the raids would be accessible enough that they would be picked up by way more than the MMO standard. Whether they have or not is unclear. There’s no reason to assume that they would be fine with a standard 5% adoption rate, when they could be hitting a 20-40% adoption rate if they made the content a bit more flexible.

Ohoni.6057:

Knowing that GW2’s audience was very different than other games

speaking of assumptions

Ohoni.6057:

The logical inference being that they thought “hey raids have this participation rate in other games, they’ll have a similar rate in GW2”. The boss gave the go-ahead with that information, and raids have had a higher rate. Pretty straightforward.

You’re assuming.

Knowing that GW2’s audience was very different than other games, they may have (should have) hoped that the raids would be accessible enough that they would be picked up by way more than the MMO standard. Whether they have or not is unclear. There’s no reason to assume that they would be fine with a standard 5% adoption rate, when they could be hitting a 20-40% adoption rate if they made the content a bit more flexible.

So now you’re against assumptions.

Ironic, when you claim things are an easy fix even after being told to stop.
Double irony, when you complain about assumptions, and then continue on to post an assumption.

speaking of assumptions

That’s not an assumption, that is a fact. Ask anyone.

Ohoni.6057:

That’s not an assumption, that is a fact. Ask anyone.

ok

hey tex, is ohoni making assumptions

gg no re

Ohoni.6057:

speaking of assumptions

That’s not an assumption, that is a fact. Ask anyone.

I think I remember the line “if you like MMOPGs, you’ll like GW2, if you hate MMORPGs, you’ll love GW2”. It’s unreasonable to say the GW2 audience doesn’t include the same MMORPG players that play other MMORPGs…

I think I remember the line “if you like MMOPGs, you’ll like GW2, if you hate MMORPGs, you’ll love GW2”. It’s unreasonable to say the GW2 audience doesn’t include the same MMORPG players that play other MMORPGs…

GW2 is the refugee camp for people fleeing other MMOs because of things like kill stealing, “group if you want to leave town,” open world PKing, exclamation point fetch quests, “raid progression,” gear treadmills, and various other annoyances. The community that built up GW2 was trying to escape the old world concepts of what an MMO “should” have, and embracing what the players wanted them to have.

Ohoni.6057:

I think I remember the line “if you like MMOPGs, you’ll like GW2, if you hate MMORPGs, you’ll love GW2”. It’s unreasonable to say the GW2 audience doesn’t include the same MMORPG players that play other MMORPGs…

GW2 is the refugee camp for people fleeing other MMOs because of things like kill stealing, “group if you want to leave town,” open world PKing, exclamation point fetch quests, “raid progression,” gear treadmills, and various other annoyances. The community that built up GW2 was trying to escape the old world concepts of what an MMO “should” have, and embracing what the players wanted them to have.

Did they add kill stealing, open world PKing, gear treadmills, raid progression or fetch quests? No they didn’t, so those who left MMORPGs for those reasons can safely continue playing GW2. None of those changed

Ohoni.6057:

GW2 is the refugee camp for people fleeing other MMOs because of things like kill stealing, “group if you want to leave town,” open world PKing, exclamation point fetch quests, “raid progression,” gear treadmills, and various other annoyances. The community that built up GW2 was trying to escape the old world concepts of what an MMO “should” have, and embracing what the players wanted them to have.

[citation needed]

I’ll just leave this fact here…..

https://youtu.be/35BPhT-KI1E?t=42s

This one unlike other claims of “Fact” is not in dispute.

[citation needed]

Not really.

I’ll just leave this fact here…..

https://youtu.be/35BPhT-KI1E?t=42s

This one unlike other claims of “Fact” is not in dispute.

Exactly.

Sarrs.4831:

Raids have already exceeded their target participation rates by ANet’s own admission

Which we learned in the same AMA where they told us that they achieved the sustainability that lets them do their projects without constantly reassigning developers from team to team to plug the leaks. I don’t need to tell you how this ended, do I?
With Anet everything is always sunshine and rainbows, till we get told that it wasn’t.

Ohoni.6057:

[citation needed]

Not really.

I’ll just leave this fact here…..

https://youtu.be/35BPhT-KI1E?t=42s

This one unlike other claims of “Fact” is not in dispute.

Exactly.

you do realize, this statement you’re saying exactly too is in direct contradiction to what you claim is a fact about gw2 being the fosters home equivalent for mmo players ?

you do realize, this statement you’re saying exactly too is in direct contradiction to what you claim is a fact about gw2 being the fosters home equivalent for mmo players ?

No, I said “exactly” because it does nothing to contradict that. Thanks for backing me up.

Ohoni.6057:

you do realize, this statement you’re saying exactly too is in direct contradiction to what you claim is a fact about gw2 being the fosters home equivalent for mmo players ?

No, I said “exactly” because it does nothing to contradict that. Thanks for backing me up.

You said:

Knowing that GW2’s audience was very different than other games

In the video it says: “If you love MMORPGs you want to check out Guild Wars 2”. So players who like MMORPGs will need to check Guild Wars 2. So part of the audience is “players who love MMORPGs”, which means it’s not very different that other games.

Sure Guild Wars 2 attracted players who didn’t want specific features in a game but what those are, is up to the individual. Someone might hate other MMORPGs because he doesn’t like kill stealing, another one because they don’t want to compete for resource nodes etc. But there is absolutely no way to conclude that they run away to avoid every aspect of an MMORPG, because GW2 is still an MMORPG last I checked.

There is nothing that says players run away of their other game, to avoid challenging group content.

Ohoni.6057:

you do realize, this statement you’re saying exactly too is in direct contradiction to what you claim is a fact about gw2 being the fosters home equivalent for mmo players ?

No, I said “exactly” because it does nothing to contradict that. Thanks for backing me up.

I have no words for this…. literally.

Did you even watch it, listen to it ?

In the video it says: “If you love MMORPGs you want to check out Guild Wars 2”. So players who like MMORPGs will need to check Guild Wars 2. So part of the audience is “players who love MMORPGs”, which means it’s not very different that other games.

It said you’d want to check it out, not that you’d necessarily like it. They also said that if you don’t like MMOs you’d definitely like GW2. The statements combined indicates that they new they were targeting a very non-standard audience, they weren’t making another hub-quest and raiding WoW-clone.

The game did not have raids for three years, I’m pretty sure they weren’t aimed at people who are all about raiding, and from what I’ve heard on communities outside GW2’s sphere, the raiders had no interest in GW2.

Did you even watch it, listen to it ?

Yes, did you?

Ohoni.6057:

It said you’d want to check it out, not that you’d necessarily like it.

I hope you are not being serious with this. They said to people who like MMORPGs to try Guild Wars 2… that means their audience is also MMORPG players. What is to deny here?

The game did not have raids for three years, I’m pretty sure they weren’t aimed at people who are all about raiding, and from what I’ve heard on communities outside GW2’s sphere, the raiders had no interest in GW2.

Nope it didn’t have Raids for 3 years but I didn’t say anything about Raids but rather challenging group content. They compared their explorable dungeons to raids, and Orr too. When that failed they remained silent for 2 years of nothing, until we got our first Raid to fill that gap. To fill a part of the game that WAS PROMISED, ADVERTISED, PROMOTED but was severely lacking in the end.

Ohoni.6057:

Did you even watch it, listen to it ?

Yes, did you?

I find this incredibly hard to believe.

If you had actually watched it, you would have heard them saying that if you love MMO’s you’ll want to check out GW2, if you hate MMO’s you’ll want to really check out GW2.

At what point does this mean they ever didn’t target MMO players ?