Guild Wars 2

maddoctor.2738:

Ohoni wants a completely random group of non-min maxed players who skipped proper Exotic, AND Ascended gear tiers, with no strictly defined roles and builds, to be able to finish the Raid. Which means he wants Legendary Armor to be easier to acquire than Ascended Armor which in turn means he wants the Legendary Armor for free, no effort required.
I guess YOU are the one who needs to read what Ohoni is saying and actually provide something constructive for once.

How exactly grinding three raids for weeks is easier than crafting ascended armor ~50g per piece?

Rednik.3809:

How exactly grinding three raids for weeks is easier than crafting ascended armor ~50g per piece?

How exactly are you going to “grind” it, if it’s only doable once per week?

No it’s not. What specific players want is irrelevant, there is a reason in every single game in existence there are types of content, that award different types of rewards. That some players want the cookies, doing different content, is irrelevant.

We aren’t talking about what specific players want, we are talking about what the players want. As I said above, if a specific player wants to farm moas, then he’s out of luck, but if the players want to farm moas, then it’s moa ranching time for Tyria.

Either easy mode requires same builds as the hard mode, OR it doesn’t award Legendary armor. Pick one.

Why? Because you say so? What does it matter what you say? This content is not for you, you already have the hard mode that is for you.

Because it’s common sense. So pick one.

It’s not common sense just because you say it is. You can have both, and both is what I choose. There is no reason why there needs to be a choice except that a player, you, want there to be a choice, and as you say, what specific players want is irrelevant.

So you DO indeed want to skip Exotic and Ascended, and make Legendary Armor so easy to obtain for every player of the game. Should stop responding here but I’ll finish this one.

I don’t think skipping exotic is really necessary, I mean who can’t get exotic? But having mismatched and non-meta exotic, sure, and skipping ascended sure, considering that acquiring Legendary should take more time/effort/resources than building Ascended in the first place. If a player is relatively new to 80 and has full exotic, why should he have to work on getting ascended if he’s working on replacing it with superior Legendary?

Because the gear progression treadmill that GW2 was built to fight? That can’t be right. This is not a gear progression treadmill game. You’re MEANT to skip steps whenever possible. I mean how many people in this game have EVER had full rares? I mean seriously, all yellow? Maybe since the leveling overhaul where you’re guaranteed to get a bunch of rares along the way, but when I was leveling before that, I would often hit 80 in a mismatch of 1-2 orange, 2-3 yellows, and a few green or even blue pieces if I didn’t happen to come across anything better while leveling, often 10-20 levels below 80, and yet I would jump straight from that to orange.

This is not a game about the gear treadmill, the armor you’re wearing now has nothing to do with the armor you’re working towards.

Fact is, getting good is easier than the endless grind for a lot of players. And getting rewarded by beating content you couldn’t before, is a reward of it’s own, compared to endlessly grinding for things.

Yeah, for some. And they have hard mode raiding, and will CONTINUE to have hard mode raiding, even if I get what I’m asking for. If they would genuinely be happy doing as you suggest, then they can continue to be happy. But not every player, I would hazard to guess not most players, feel that the hard raid “git gud” mentality is for them, and would prefer a fun, but slower process, and those players would now be given an OPTION that is not currently on the table. Whether they choose to take it or not is entirely up to them.

If your joke mode “passes” or is even considered, then tier 2 and tier 3 of the legendary armor will be an endless grind. If there is no joke mode involved, then maybe, just maybe, legendary armor won’t have as much grind involved and instead require more Raids.

More raid IS grind. It’s as grind as Silverwaste farming if you aren’t enjoying it. To me, hard mode raiding would always be the very worst sort of grind. It wouldn’t even just be grind, it would be Grind. For you it isn’t, and that’s great, you have your option, the option that would make you happy, and now I’m trying to get the option that I would enjoy as much as you enjoy yours.

You sure like to assume a lot. Like for instance that it would be easy to do, take only so much time, bring in more players. Lots of assuming going on here, nothing to prove it other than hot air.

Reasonable Fermi estimates, all.

Yet again, though you seemingly don’t get it. Raids by their very nature and design are not meant to be “most content”. It is meant to be challenging content that pushes you as a player. Easy modes don’t and never will accomplish the goals set forth by this design.

Hard mode raids, the raids you enjoy, are totally like that. And that’s great, and nobody is trying to change that.

Easy mode raids are something else entirely, and you do not have to enjoy them AT ALL, because you do not have to participate in them AT ALL.

You also assume that 10 average players cannot complete the raid, I submit that you that 10 average players can complete the raid and that you are probably not anywhere near as good a player as you believe yourself to be.

Nope. Try again.

Now then, you’ve failed to answer what happens in your model when even the average joe group cannot complete the mode.

If the average Joe group cannot complete it then the developers have failed to balance it properly for the average Joe group to beat. What kind of a question is that? The entire point of having an easy mode is so that the average Joe group can beat it, it can’t be considered a successful easy mode if it fails that test.

It’d be like if I asked you what you would want done if they made an ostensibly “difficult” raid, of the type we ended up getting, only it was so easy that anyone could walk right through it on the first try. You would obviously view that as a total failure of a “challenging” raid, and rightly so.

The level he needs for easy mode is the level he can succeed, that’s all.

I would expect it to be a good bit below the minimum I would need to clear it, if I’m the absolute weakest that could clear it then it would probably still be tuned too high. I’m not great, by any stretch, but I’m well above the average.

You’d do better to argue with what Ohoni is saying. Not with what you claim he’s saying.
Sure, the second is easier, because it lets you easily “win” with nonexisting opponent, but that doesn’t actually accomplish anything.

Doc is a world champion scarecrow wrestler.

How exactly grinding three raids for weeks is easier than crafting ascended armor ~50g per piece?

For tens of weeks, and THEN doing whatever additional stuff is required to turn those precursors into finished Legendary armor, which will likely involve a ton of gold/mats and at least one l500 craft, so yeah, I doubt that even if you took the raiding entirely out of the process Legendary armor will be easier to get than Ascended. I mean, if I wanted to, I could have a suit of Ascended armor whipped up in like fifteen minutes, how hard is that?

How exactly are you going to “grind” it, if it’s only doable once per week?

By doing it that once per week for however many weeks it takes?

maddoctor.2738:

How exactly are you going to “grind” it, if it’s only doable once per week?

Artificially stretched grind is still grind.You cannot get everything you need for collection in one clear.

Ohoni.6057:

We aren’t talking about what specific players want, we are talking about what the players want. As I said above, if a specific player wants to farm moas, then he’s out of luck, but if the players want to farm moas, then it’s moa ranching time for Tyria.

No it’s not. There is a limit by the devs on what their players should do to acquire what they want. It’s what makes a game, a game. This isn’t a pen and paper experience with someone to give exactly what you want, the way you want it.

It’s not common sense just because you say it is.

Maybe you should read below why it’s actual common sense.

If a player is relatively new to 80 and has full exotic, why should he have to work on getting ascended if he’s working on replacing it with superior Legendary?

That’s my question, not yours. Why should a relatively new level 80 with exotics be allowed to earn Legendary before he gets Ascended?

You’re MEANT to skip steps whenever possible.

Yes. Skip steps with superior skill and ability, that’s why a hard gate is dumb.

And they have hard mode raiding, and will CONTINUE to have hard mode raiding, even if I get what I’m asking for.

Yet we can’t get absolutely everything through Raid and have to do other things too. See the problem?

More raid IS grind.

No it’s not. Have you seen the actual achievements? There is no repetition in them so far.

By doing it that once per week for however many weeks it takes?

Have you seen the achievements for the legendary armor?

Ohoni.6057:

You’d do better to argue with what Ohoni is saying. Not with what you claim he’s saying.
Sure, the second is easier, because it lets you easily “win” with nonexisting opponent, but that doesn’t actually accomplish anything.

Doc is a world champion scarecrow wrestler.

A completely random group of non-min maxed average joes who skipped proper Exotic, AND Ascended gear tiers, with no strictly defined roles and builds, to be able to finish the Raid means absolutely no effort to do the content. No effort and still getting the rewards. No effort but get rewards = getting them for free.

Call it a strawman all you want, doesn’t change the facts.

Not even going to bother with this quote chain as it’s gone back too the following

Nope and My idea is better than nothing. Which it’s not.
It still doesnt answer the following and presumes that the developers are incompetent and have not balanced the current raid to be done by average players.

So until ohoni can give logical feedback based on any merit that is not completely and utterly biased there’s no point in discussion.

It’s pretty sad that after being told countless times to stop assuming, and you yourself preaching to others not to assume that you have to resort to….assumptions.

There’s not a single logical argument made here by the “easy mode” team that doesn’t open up a can of worms when it comes to design time, balance, rewards, or the ever so slippery slope of what if their mode is still to hard for them.

No it’s not. There is a limit by the devs on what their players should do to acquire what they want. It’s what makes a game, a game. This isn’t a pen and paper experience with someone to give exactly what you want, the way you want it.

It’s a pen and paper writ large. They can’t tailor the experience to each player, but they can and should provide the experience that works best for the majority of their players, even if a vocal minority disapproves.

That’s my question, not yours. Why should a relatively new level 80 with exotics be allowed to earn Legendary before he gets Ascended?

Because there’s literally no reason not to?

And they have hard mode raiding, and will CONTINUE to have hard mode raiding, even if I get what I’m asking for.

Yet we can’t get absolutely everything through Raid and have to do other things too. See the problem?

No, actually, on this one you’ve sincerely lost me, I have absolutely no idea where you were going with this one. I think you split the quotes too fine and lost their meaning or something. Start over on whatever it is you were trying to convey with this one.

More raid IS grind.

No it’s not. Have you seen the actual achievements? There is no repetition in them so far.

The repetition is in doing the raid over and over, first so that you can beat it once (which few if any have claimed to do on their first attempt), and then to clear the achievements, and presumably Magnetite and Insights will be needed someplace along the line, there’s plenty of grind in hard mode already, and easy mode would just triple it. The only difference being, some people enjoy the grind of hard mode, you do, for example, while other people would absolute hate it, me, for example, while some people would enjoy the easy mode and others would hate that (flip the you and me examples from the previous set).

Have you seen the achievements for the legendary armor?

Yes.

A completely random group of non-min maxed average joes who skipped proper Exotic, AND Ascended gear tiers, with no strictly defined roles and builds, to be able to finish the Raid means absolutely no effort to do the content.

False.

No effort and still getting the rewards. No effort but get rewards = getting them for free.

True, but rendered false by the previous incorrect premise.

Call it a strawman all you want, doesn’t change the facts.

It does not, which is why it’s a strawman.

It still doesnt answer the following and presumes that the developers are incompetent and have not balanced the current raid to be done by average players.

I think it’s very fair to assume that the current raid was never intended to be balanced against the average player. If they’d succeeded at that then the rest of you lot would have poured into the forums on day one, drenched in Vale Guardian blood, crying your eyes out about how “faceroll easy” it was. And you’d have every right, because they promised you guys challenging content, and they provided that to the best of their ability. Now it’s time for everyone else’s turn.

There’s not a single logical argument made here by the “easy mode” team that doesn’t open up a can of worms when it comes to design time, balance, rewards, or the ever so slippery slope of what if their mode is still to hard for them.

Because it’s impossible to suggest any change to the game without opening that can of worms. That can is the entree for any discussion of potential futures. Learn to enjoy the taste of worms, or do not bother participating in discussions about the potential future of the game.

Ohoni.6057:

A completely random group of non-min maxed average joes who skipped proper Exotic, AND Ascended gear tiers, with no strictly defined roles and builds, to be able to finish the Raid means absolutely no effort to do the content.

False.

I don’t know what world you live in where you can have content be interesting for the “average player” but still be beatable by a group of 10 guardians in green gear spamming staff 1. Either the latter group will fail, or the former group will be bored to tears.

But I’m not taking ANYTHING from you! You have no justification to complain! It’s like you have a $100 bill, and I say “Can I have a $100 bill too?”
“Mine? No.”
“No, not yours, a new one will be given to me, you can keep yours.”
“Still, no, I like that you don’t have one.”
“Well how about a $20 bill?”
“Nope, I can only be happy if I have this $100 bill and you have nothing.”

I’m sorry, but that is not a reasonable position to hold your ground on

.

I love how you used the specific part of the analogy and left out extremely relevant parts.

Here’s an analogy that describes the situation better:

Analogy:

There is a city with a number of people living there. There is lots to do in the city, lots of places of eat, cinemas, clubs, leisure centres, something for everyone. One day the mayor sets up a city marathon for those people that are very keen for a challenge. In order to attract attention to the marathon and reward the citizens taking part he decides to give a shiny medal to those that complete it. Person A and B both hear this news and tell their friends that they like the medal and decide they want it. Person A goes to the sports shop and buys running shoes and goes to the gym for a month to train in preparation for the marathon. Person B feels like this is too much effort and goes to the cinema with some friends to watch a film and relaxes for the month.

It’s marathon day. Both Person A and B are at the start line ready to go. The whistle blows and they both head off. At the start there seems to be no difference in terms of position between both Person A and Person B. 2 miles into the marathon however Person B discovers that it would take a lot more effort than she’d anticipated and so decides to call it quits. Person A however is really determined to achieve the goal that she set. Person A, after a long and difficult time finishes the marathon. She is greeted by the mayor at the finish line and is given the shiny medal.

Person A feels really happy and rewarded for her hard work and shows the medal to her friends down the pub. It just so happens that Person B sees the medal and is overcome by envy. She then goes to the mayor and demands that an easier race be made (lets say 5km) with the same medal as the marathon being given as a reward for completing the easy race 3 times.

Hypothetical 1 – The mayor caves in to Person B’s demands.

The mayor then arranges a number of easier 5km races and after completing three of them the participants get the same shiny medal as those who completed the marathon. Person B does three of the easier races, gets the medal and goes to the pub to show off the medal. Person A sees the medal and realises that it is exactly the same medal that she got from the marathon. Person A now feels cheated out of her accomplishment and has nothing to prove how much effort it took to complete the marathon. Person A now no longer feels like the medal is worth showing off and puts it in the attic.

This is your wish Ohoni, it ruins the enjoyment of those people who like challenges just because of your seething jealousy.

Hypothetical 2 – The mayor compromises.

The mayor then arranges a number of easier 5km races and after completing one of them the participants get a certificate saying that they did so. Person B does the easier race, gets the certificate and goes to the pub to show off their accomplishment. Person A sees the certificate and congratulates Person B. Person A and B talk about their running experiences and became friends. Person A still feels good about completing the marathon and feels that sense of satisfaction every time she looks at the medal. She puts the medal in a cabinet in the living room of her house. Person B does the same with her certificate and feels proud of her achievement.

This is actually the compromise, not your self-centred proposal. This is what should happen if there is enough interest from people who can’t complete the marathon.

Hypothetical 3 – The mayor refuses entirely.

The mayor tells Person B that there simply hasn’t been enough requests to warrant arranging easier races. Person B remains unhappy and jealous.

This is what should happen if there isn’t enough interest from people who can’t complete the marathon.

Rednik.3809:

Zenith.7301:

No.

Prestige items should be tied to in-game achievements and challenging combat gameplay, not about who farms best or plays the auction house baron.

By this point I’d even prefer they release legendaries tied to gold medals in adventures or upon successful completion of hard jumping puzzles.

But have these legendaries means something that is not FARM GOLD. kitten that.

Weapons and armors should be earned by doing meaningful content WELL in the game.

The economy should be restricted to convenience items like food, pots, minis, and other frivolous crap not tied to character progression.

Get this virtual market filth out of my gaming.

Are you sure that you are picked a right game then? GW2 was made as game without carrot on stick, and that why it became so popular and lasted so long. And yet we constantly getting people who want to take some valuable stuff from everyone else and call it a “meaningful reward”. Seriously people, why you left WoW and came here, asking for same game reward model?

lol seriously? Carrot on a stick? Like the gold gate and RNG droprates already in place aren’t a carrot on a stick?

What the hell are you even trying to say? The basis of many videogames is that you are rewarded for accomplishments with gameplay feats, not by just mashing your autoattack on an HP bag in a dynamic event or downloading some auction house trading app.

Ohoni.6057:

They can’t tailor the experience to each player, but they can and should provide the experience that works best for the majority of their players, even if a vocal minority disapproves.

You don’t know what works for the majority nor you have any kind of evidence to support that it wants “easy mode” raiding.

Because there’s literally no reason not to?

Skipping gear tiers and the difficulty curve is a valid reason. Actually there is absolutely no reason to give them the legendary armor without them first getting the proper gear and most of all, proper builds.

No, actually, on this one you’ve sincerely lost me, I have absolutely no idea where you were going with this one. I think you split the quotes too fine and lost their meaning or something. Start over on whatever it is you were trying to convey with this one.

It means we can’t every single reward from the Raid. Weren’t you talking about player wants?

The repetition is in doing the raid over and over, first so that you can beat it once (which few if any have claimed to do on their first attempt), and then to clear the achievements, and presumably Magnetite and Insights will be needed someplace along the line, there’s plenty of grind in hard mode already, and easy mode would just triple it.

At most you need to kill Gorseval 5 times, which means repeat Spirit Vale 5 times. In joke mode it will take ~30 minutes per week to get it. 30 minutes per week for 5 weeks isn’t a serious amount of repetition. Compare this to how many hours you have to repeat gathering to get enough Deldrimor Ingots for an Ascended Sword.

A completely random group of non-min maxed average joes who skipped proper Exotic, AND Ascended gear tiers, with no strictly defined roles and builds, to be able to finish the Raid means absolutely no effort to do the content.

False.

True. What you want is exactly the definition of zero effort. There is no other way around it, you want the armor for zero effort = free.

No effort and still getting the rewards. No effort but get rewards = getting them for free.

True, but rendered false by the previous incorrect premise.

See above.

It does not, which is why it’s a strawman.

No it’s a fact. You calling it a strawman doesn’t make it one, nor does it make it any less of a fact.

I don’t know what world you live in where you can have content be interesting for the “average player” but still be beatable by a group of 10 guardians in green gear spamming staff 1.

I’m honestly not sure either, who would ever suggest anything remotely like that? That sounds awful.

Person A feels really happy and rewarded for her hard work and shows the medal to her friends down the pub. It just so happens that Person B sees the medal and is overcome by envy. She then goes to the mayor and demands that an easier race be made (lets say 5km) with the same medal as the marathon being given as a reward for completing the easy race 3 times.

This is where the analogy breaks down, Person B would not give a kitten. Person A would just be so full of himself that he would assume that Person B must care about his shiny medal.

The mayor then arranges a number of easier 5km races and after completing three of them the participants get the same shiny medal as those who completed the marathon. Person B does three of the easier races, gets the medal and goes to the pub to show off the medal. Person A sees the medal and realises that it is exactly the same medal that she got from the marathon. Person A now feels cheated out of her accomplishment and has nothing to prove how much effort it took to complete the marathon. Person A now no longer feels like the medal is worth showing off and puts it in the attic.

This is your wish Ohoni, it ruins the enjoyment of those people who like challenges just because of your seething jealousy.

. . .

Good?

I mean, I’m not sure what your point is, Person A sounds like kind of an awful human being. I mean, is the lesson that he did all that training just so that he could get a shiny medal? It had nothing to do with enjoying running, or enjoying knowing that he can do it well? That’s just pathetic, what a waste of human tissue.

I mean, Person B completing the lesser challenge 3 times takes nothing away from Person A completing it once, and Person B getting a medal does not take Person A’s medal away from him. If he likes the way the medal looks on him then that’s great, but if he likes it because he thinks it makes people like him more, then he really just needs to learn to love himself.

In the real world, thousands of people compete in marathons all the time, and they don’t do it for some fancy medal, they do it because they enjoy pushing themselves to their own limits, whether that means they come in first, or dead last. And they do have full marathons, and half marathons, 10Ks, 5Ks, all sorts of races of all sorts of fitness levels.

The mayor then arranges a number of easier 5km races and after completing one of them the participants get a certificate saying that they did so. Person B does the easier race, gets the certificate and goes to the pub to show off their accomplishment. Person A sees the certificate and congratulates Person B. Person A and B talk about their running experiences and became friends. Person A still feels good about completing the marathon and feels that sense of satisfaction every time she looks at the medal. She puts the medal in a cabinet in the living room of her house. Person B does the same with her certificate and feels proud of her achievement.

That’s all well and good, and Person A doesn’t come off as such a kitten this time, but it isn’t really relevant to the matter at hand here, since we’re talking about raids which reward Legendary armor. Now I’ve said before that I would be ok with the easy mode not rewarding the legendary armor, but then they would need to come up with some other source for it entirely, otherwise you would be unable to get it without beating the hard mode raid, and that’s nonsense. Putting them in the easy mode raid just seems like the simplest solution. Take your hypothetical B, and just make it so that instead of Person A getting a medal and person B getting a certificate, they both get legendary armor, and then all the rest of that stuff you were talking about happens because neither of them are kittens about it. That would be a better ending.

Hypothetical 3 – The mayor refuses entirely.

The mayor tells Person B that there simply hasn’t been enough requests to warrant arranging easier races. Person B remains unhappy and jealous.

This is what should happen if there isn’t enough interest from people who can’t complete the marathon.

Well sure, and as it should be, but. . ok, I’m not sure where we’re going with this, because if we went with hypothetical 3 in relation to raids in GW2 then they never would have been raids in the first place because that would be the tiny, insignificant audience. There’s no doubt that there’s a large enough audience to support the “easier races,” what’s in doubt is how big the actual audience is for the harder one, or whether you just currently have people chasing the medal or that haven’t given up yet.

You don’t know what works for the majority nor you have any kind of evidence to support that it wants “easy mode” raiding.

Occam’s Razor.

Skipping gear tiers and the difficulty curve is a valid reason. Actually there is absolutely no reason to give them the legendary armor without them first getting the proper gear and most of all, proper builds.

Why? The two have nothing to do with each other. Again, this is not a progression gear grind game, there is literally no reason people cannot jump from one gear tier up several tiers. I’m not saying that they should be able to be successful in less than exotic, but many people report being able to beat hard mode in exotic, so beating easy mode in exotic should be a given. There is literally zero basis in this game to even loosely enforce gear treadmill thinking.

No, actually, on this one you’ve sincerely lost me, I have absolutely no idea where you were going with this one. I think you split the quotes too fine and lost their meaning or something. Start over on whatever it is you were trying to convey with this one.

It means we can’t every single reward from the Raid. Weren’t you talking about player wants?

Still too cryptic, form an entire paragraph, a self contained thought. I do not understand what your thought fragment is meant to convey.

At most you need to kill Gorseval 5 times, which means repeat Spirit Vale 5 times. In joke mode it will take ~30 minutes per week to get it.

It should take more than 30 minutes per week, are you counting the trash mobs? And the difficulty would be such that it wouldn’t be guaranteed you’d get it on every try, just most of the time, so bosses might each take 20-30 minutes unless you really had it down.

Seriously though, you only have to beat the bosses five times to get full Legendary armor? No money, no Insights, nothing more than five kills each? And you guys are trying to make this out to be sooooooo much hard work that us lowly peons can never be allowed Legendary armor? That’s tragic.

True. What you want is exactly the definition of zero effort. There is no other way around it, you want the armor for zero effort = free.

False.

See above.

I have done.

No it’s a fact. You calling it a strawman doesn’t make it one, nor does it make it any less of a fact.

I’m starting to suspect that you don’t know how facts work. . .

Ohoni.6057:

Person A feels really happy and rewarded for her hard work and shows the medal to her friends down the pub. It just so happens that Person B sees the medal and is overcome by envy. She then goes to the mayor and demands that an easier race be made (lets say 5km) with the same medal as the marathon being given as a reward for completing the easy race 3 times.

This is where the analogy breaks down, Person B would not give a kitten. Person A would just be so full of himself that he would assume that Person B must care about his shiny medal.

You are Person B and you clearly give a kitten, no assumptions need be made.

Ohoni.6057:

You don’t know what works for the majority nor you have any kind of evidence to support that it wants “easy mode” raiding.

Occam’s Razor.

Once you provide your actual, factual evidence we can get back to this.

Why? The two have nothing to do with each other.

No, they have everything to do with each other. As I already explained, a 1st grader can’t go to 6th grade and expect it to be nerfed to his level so he can understand it. They have everything to do with each other, from a balancing standpoint, economic one and even player skill one.

It should take more than 30 minutes per week, are you counting the trash mobs?

It takes ~45 minutes in hard mode to finish the Raid. That 30 minute for the joke mode is a rough estimate.

Seriously though, you only have to beat the bosses five times to get full Legendary armor? No money, no Insights, nothing more than five kills each? And you guys are trying to make this out to be sooooooo much hard work that us lowly peons can never be allowed Legendary armor? That’s tragic.

You know anything more that will be needed? Got a crystal ball that shows the future? If yes please share the details. I’m talking about what we ALREADY know. You want to devalue WHAT WE ALREADY KNOW. It doesn’t matter what will be needed for the next tiers to get the Legendary armor.

I have done.

Apparently you haven’t. It’s not rocket science so I don’t know where you are having trouble understanding it. Maybe you want me to paint it?

No it’s a fact. You calling it a strawman doesn’t make it one, nor does it make it any less of a fact.

I’m starting to suspect that you don’t know how facts work. . .

Same to you… A fact is a fact, something that is indisputable which is what I posted.

I had to re-read the response to Hypothetical A.

Apparently working hard towards something that not many other people will want to do is pathetic, a waste of human tissue as it were.

Did I completely misinterpret that?

Sykper.6583:

I had to re-read the response to Hypothetical A.

Apparently working hard towards something that not many other people will want to do is pathetic, a waste of human tissue as it were.

Did I completely misinterpret that?

Sounds like the meeting Anet had when scrapping legendary weapons.

You are Person B and you clearly give a kitten, no assumptions need be made.

Oh, I don’t give a kitten about Person A or his shiny medal. Person A is irrelevant to me. I do want the armor that I want though. Zealous was talking about Envy, the desire to have what someone else has. Envy has nothing to do with this discussion. If we’re going to chalk it up to a seven deadly it would be closer to Greed, desire for material goods regardless of the ownership, and in this Person A and Person B would be equally afflicted by greed, the entire loot mechanic is based around it.

I mean, without greed at play, the loot mechanic would be completely irrelevant, people would just get whatever they get and not particular care about any of it. Any of you trying to defend the existing raids as the only way to do it are also acting from a position of greed, not wanting others to have what you have, even though in so doing, what you have is not actually diminished. There’s also some measure of Pride and Gluttony in there, obviously, and to be fair my own position includes a degree of Sloth, though not nearly as much as you guys insist.

Things don’t just have value because you’re greedy about it. You don’t stop caring about something just because you don’t have an overbearing obsession with acquiring more of it.

There’s some grey in between that black and white, people.

You don’t even need to remove legendaries from people who want to grind gold. You can just make it so people who do difficult content acquire the legendary far faster than people who play auction house barons and dynamic event farmers.

Everyone would still acquire a legendary their own way, but instanced group content wouldn’t feel so kitten in acquisition rate, on top of raiders/dungeoneers not feeling pressed to use the auction house to acquire legendaries in a reasonable amount of time.

Ohoni, we don’t deny the fact that other means to have legendary armor is probably necessary. We just don’t like your ideas because it will devalue the entire purpose of normal raid, and that you want to obtain the same thing as us but with à fraction of the effort we put in learning raids…
And btw, each week with my guild we carry unexp people, and we mostly succeed. So the content is not that hard, assuming you’re willing to put some effort in it. If you don’t want to do it, that’s fine, but then stop asking for the same reward as us.

Once you provide your actual, factual evidence we can get back to this.

Again, neither of us has access to the data necessary to provide “actual factual evidence” of anything, so the best we can do is make reasonable estimates based on the data that is available, such as the number of people available to raid at any given time, the number of people playing the game who are unlikely to be able to pass the raid based on previous content and difficulty levels, things like that. Given how many people struggle even to do HoT open world content, it should shock no one that there are plenty of people who will be incapable of pulling their weight in the existing raids.

No, they have everything to do with each other. As I already explained, a 1st grader can’t go to 6th grade and expect it to be nerfed to his level so he can understand it. They have everything to do with each other, from a balancing standpoint, economic one and even player skill one.

I think you’re confusing games again. This is GW2. All level 80 players are in the same grade. People in Ascended are not in a higher grade than those in exotic, they are at most in a slightly more advanced class within that grade. There certainly are other games in which the gear treadmill is REAL, and in which a player in G-class armor is nothing compared to a player in H-class armor, who is in turn pathetic compared to a player in I-class armor, and you’re expected to earn the G to be able to earn the H to be able to earn the I, but this is GW2, and GW2 is not remotely like that. You should know this by now.

It takes ~45 minutes in hard mode to finish the Raid. That 30 minute for the joke mode is a rough estimate.

Oh, if it takes 45 minutes in hard then 30 minutes in easy isn’t so bad. Sure, 30 minutes then, although really it can take the full 45, I don’t see why it would actually take less time. Gee, you guys were making hard mode out to be a lot more work than it actually is. I don’t feel as bad asking for an easier mode now.

You know anything more that will be needed? Got a crystal ball that shows the future? If yes please share the details. I’m talking about what we ALREADY know. You want to devalue WHAT WE ALREADY KNOW. It doesn’t matter what will be needed for the next tiers to get the Legendary armor.

Well, but you were the one talking about getting Legendary armor “for free,” which would imply that you considered the “what we know” part to be the entire cost of it. If it then goes on to cost a bunch of other stuff, which the player would then have to fork out, it would hardly come “for free” to anyone. I think based on prior content it’s safe to assume that the final version will require more than just completing basic “do two things” collections like the first tier. Based on the new Precursor crafting, there will likely be a “build armor equivalent in material costs to Ascended+” phase in there, at the very least.

Apparently working hard towards something that not many other people will want to do is pathetic, a waste of human tissue as it were.

Did I completely misinterpret that?

Working hard towards something is all find and good. Working hard JUST because of the medal attached, to the point that you believe someone else getting the same medal makes your accomplishments any lesser is what is entirely pathetic. If Person A completed the full marathon, he should be happy about that, not that he got a medal for doing so. If Player B also gets a medal, that should not matter to Player A at all.

Ohoni, we don’t deny the fact that other means to have legendary armor is probably necessary. We just don’t like your ideas because it will devalue the entire purpose of normal raid, and that you want to obtain the same thing as us but with à fraction of the effort we put in learning raids…

It’s less effort in learning the mechanics, but more effort in actually applying it, since it would require more repetitions of the content to earn the eventual rewards. It’s a different type of effort, certainly, but it’s obviously still effort.

Again, I’d be open to the idea of them having a completely different method of earning the armor, along with an easy mode raid that only rewards ordinary stuff, but I just see that as a waste of resources, and in the current environment I can’t see them getting around to implementing it as quickly. I mean, if they say “there will be an alternate method of earning the armor,” in ANet-speak that means “sometime between now and 2030.” That’s just not good enough.

And btw, each week with my guild we carry unexp people, and we mostly succeed. So the content is not that hard, assuming you’re willing to put some effort in it. If you don’t want to do it, that’s fine, but then stop asking for the same reward as us.

I do not want to be carried, and I do not want to grind against walls. I have explained what I do want, and I really wish people would stop suggesting ways that I could stop worrying and learn to love the bomb. I want an experience that is fun and easy for casual people that do not enjoy the challenging raids that many of you do enjoy, just as you guys want fun and challenging content that is not as easy and casual as other content.

Ohoni.6057:

And btw, each week with my guild we carry unexp people, and we mostly succeed. So the content is not that hard, assuming you’re willing to put some effort in it. If you don’t want to do it, that’s fine, but then stop asking for the same reward as us.

I do not want to be carried

Yes you do, you just want Anet to do the carrying.

Ohoni.6057:

Again, neither of us has access to the data necessary to provide “actual factual evidence” of anything, so the best we can do is make reasonable estimates based on the data that is available.

The question is about easy mode, not if Raids are hard or not. For example a lot of people in other threads say they want to get Legendary Armor from other types of content, like PVP or WVW or something entirely different. Those who actually want an easy mode version of the Raid might not be as many as you think they are. And there are even those who want an easy mode just to experience the story of the Raid (and nothing about Legendary Armor at all). At least I’m not talking about the majority here, but it’s clear there is no majority opinion on the subject.

I think you’re confusing games again. This is GW2. All level 80 players are in the same grade.

No I’m not. And yes this is GW2. And no, all level 80 players are not the same. You might be confused here but I’m not. There are level 80s and level 80s, huge difference between them. Just because you are level 80 doesn’t mean you are done with your self progress in the game.

Gee, you guys were making hard mode out to be a lot more work than it actually is. I don’t feel as bad asking for an easier mode now.

45 minutes for those who will compare to the easy mode, as in those who finish it every single run without failures. Those who aren’t at that point yet will take hours upon hours to beat a boss. But that will never happen in easy mode, because it’s “easy” right?

Well, but you were the one talking about getting Legendary armor “for free,” which would imply that you considered the “what we know” part to be the entire cost of it.

Free based on what we already know genius. You get for “free”, as in absolutely no effort involved, the 9 collection achievements already available to us.

Yes you do, you just want Anet to do the carrying.

By that measure anything you’ve done in the game was you being carried by Anet because they didn’t make every chip-damage attack deal lethal damage. I’m just asking for content of the difficulty level that I’m comfortable with it, and when I go through it I want to be contributing just as much as every other player, and I want them to contribute as much as I do, and we all pass it as equals. I want what you want, just on a lower level of difficulty.

Ohoni.6057:

Yes you do, you just want Anet to do the carrying.

By that measure anything you’ve done in the game was you being carried by Anet because they didn’t make every chip-damage attack deal lethal damage. I’m just asking for content of the difficulty level that I’m comfortable with it, and when I go through it I want to be contributing just as much as every other player, and I want them to contribute as much as I do, and we all pass it as equals. I want what you want, just on a lower level of difficulty.

So, with a lower level of reward (that’s just logic)

Ohoni.6057:

Yes you do, you just want Anet to do the carrying.

By that measure anything you’ve done in the game was you being carried by Anet because they didn’t make every chip-damage attack deal lethal damage. I’m just asking for content of the difficulty level that I’m comfortable with it, and when I go through it I want to be contributing just as much as every other player, and I want them to contribute as much as I do, and we all pass it as equals. I want what you want, just on a lower level of difficulty.

You don’t want what ‘we’ want. There is no problem having multiple difficultly levels of content. This also isn’t an argument about difficult content its a discussion about legendary armour behind content seen to be difficult.

And if you have done raids you will know there are lethal damage mechanics.

Ohoni.6057:

Yes you do, you just want Anet to do the carrying.

By that measure anything you’ve done in the game was you being carried by Anet because they didn’t make every chip-damage attack deal lethal damage. I’m just asking for content of the difficulty level that I’m comfortable with it, and when I go through it I want to be contributing just as much as every other player, and I want them to contribute as much as I do, and we all pass it as equals. I want what you want, just on a lower level of difficulty.

The content doesn’t adapt to the player. The player adapts to the content. A difficulty that YOU are comfortable with isn’t the same average joe is comfortable with, which isn’t the same average steve is comfortable with, which isn’t the same average john is comfortable with. Your idea works in single player but it has serious flaws when it goes online, keep it for single player games where it can work.

For example a lot of people in other threads say they want to get Legendary Armor from other types of content, like PVP or WVW or something entirely different.

And that is a separate argument, and I would agree with them, but that’s not the end of the discussion on Legendary armor.

Those who actually want an easy mode version of the Raid might not be as many as you think they are.

Without data we either have to assume that there are a lot or assume that there are few in order to judge the worthiness of the idea. If I were ANet obviously I would try to collect better data, but I’m not sure how they do that internally. But give those two polls, given the total size of the population, given how many people are known to play certain modes in a vague sense, I just believe it’s more reasonable to assume that there are a lot of people who would be interested in something like this, a number of players equal to or greater than the number currently engaged in raids, and likely inclusive of a portion of that group as well.

I’m not really discussing a “majority opinion,” I’m discussing "the outcome that benefits the majority of players. This would remain true regardless of the number of people expressing an opinion directly, but opening up the content to more players clearly benefits more players.

There are level 80s and level 80s, huge difference between them.

Look the same to me.

I mean, sure, there’s difference in skill level, but we weren’t talking about skill level, we were talking about the gearing. Once you get full exotic, you’re meant to be “mostly set,” and they’ve said time and again that Ascended armor is meant to only apply a negligible benefit over exotic. And Legendary won’t apply any tier above that, so why shouldn’t a player be able to skip Ascended entirely if he isn’t particularly interested in going for that armor, just like a level 60-70 player might put zero effort into accumulating rare gear, knowing that he’ll be going for Exotics when he hits 80?

45 minutes for those who will compare to the easy mode, as in those who finish it every single run without failures. Those who aren’t at that point yet will take hours upon hours to beat a boss. But that will never happen in easy mode, because it’s “easy” right?

Right, but aren’t there already people at that point? So now they’re onto the 45 minute part, and can acquire all they’ll need for their legendary in X runs. A player on easy mode would start out at least a month or two behind that player (since easy mode would release later), and while they might only take a few attempts to clear it on their first night, they would then take 3X runs to earn those rewards, so they should always end up getting it long after anyone that started running the hard mode at the launch of it, and even ahead people that started hard mode months after them. If it’d be fair to add even more time lag onto the easy mode, that may be fair, so long as it’s reasonable, but I see three times as long as being a fair amount, and I struggle to take the complaints in good faith, since most of those who think that’s “too easy” are the same ones who’d much rather have NO path whatsoever, so of course it would be “too easy” if it’s not “impossible.”

Free based on what we already know genius. You get for “free”, as in absolutely no effort involved, the 9 collection achievements already available to us.

Right, but you got that stuff “for free” too. So far all the stuff is just basic mob drops, all you have to do is beat the mob in question. All easy mode would change is that it would have less risk of failure each time you kill the boss, but you’d actually have to kill the boss more times, so the effort involved is comparable, assuming that each player is equivalent in skill relative to the challenge level of the content.

You can’t then compare that effort to the costs of Ascended armor, since it’s only part of the process, and there likely will be Ascended+ costs to the final build.

Oh, I don’t give a kitten about Person A or his shiny medal. Person A is irrelevant to me. I do want the armor that I want though.

Oh but you do though! Just to clarify if it wasn’t clear enough….Person A are the people currently doing raids, the shiny medal is the unique rewards from raids (skins and currently legendary armor). You wouldn’t even be on this thread arguing if you didn’t!

Btw calling everyone who aspires to do anything challenging a waste of human tissue doesn’t exactly seems like a very reasoned argument does it?

Why study for an exam and get an A? I could just as easily take 3 easy mode exams and that should give me the same A grade right!

Why be promoted for being good at your job? I should be given a promotion for going on reddit for three times as long as that guy did his job for!

Guy 1 goes to a river and sits for two hours before catching a fish. Guy 2 comes along and wants a fish. Guy 1 tells Guy 2 that it took him 2 hours to catch the fish. Guy 2 says kitten that, I cba with that and goes and demands the river deliver him a fish whilst he goes to watch tv for 2 hours.

Frankly you are just an entitled brat who thinks they deserve everything without actually doing anything.

So, with a lower level of reward (that’s just logic)

Yes, that’s a given. You’d get about 1/3 as much as what you’d get out of a hard mode raid.

You don’t want what ‘we’ want.

Of course I want what you want. You want a level of challenge that is fun and engaging, and so do I, we have just different levels of challenge that are fun and engaging to us. I am no more comfortable with the existing level of challenge than you would be if every time you entered one of the boss fights you would just auto-wipe with no options to avoid it.

Like raise of hands, how many of you guys would enjoy the current raids if they lowered the enrage timer (or similar effects) to about 1/4 of what they currently are, and made the ones that are semi-survivable into completely lethal every time? Would that be fun for you? Would you enjoy the raids as much as you currently do? Do you think there would be high participation in them?

Hell, you probably would, but that’s why you and me are different. Please respect those differences, and don’t insist that people deserve reduced rewards just because they’re wired differently and don’t enjoy the same content you do.

And if you have done raids you will know there are lethal damage mechanics.

In my example I meant, “what if they made EVERY attack deal lethal damage?” What if every time Vg or Gorseval took a weak swing at the tank, he’d get downed? What if any time a red orb got within range of you, you’d get downed and almost instantly finished. The fact that ANet saw fit to not make that happen is as much them “carrying” you as them providing an easier mode would be them “carrying” me.

The content doesn’t adapt to the player. The player adapts to the content. A difficulty that YOU are comfortable with isn’t the same average joe is comfortable with, which isn’t the same average steve is comfortable with, which isn’t the same average john is comfortable with. Your idea works in single player but it has serious flaws when it goes online, keep it for single player games where it can work.

Nonsense. the game, especially a living game like an MMO, DOES adapt to the player. Raids did not exist at launch. They only exist now because the game ADAPTED to players asking for more challenging content, and so they added it. When GW2 launched, it did not have the “raid” difficulty mode, it only had “normal” and “easy” modes. Raid ADDED a “hard” mode.

And GW2 already has a ton of content with variable difficulty, like the 100 levels of Fractals, like the difficulty levels on SAB, like Challenge Motes in Story missions that ramp the challenge factor, etc., so lets not pretend that variable difficulty is some completely alien concept to the game just because you’d rather they not apply the same here.

And yes, they cannot provide bespoke difficulty to each player, nor should they bother, they can cover a wider RANGE of tastes than the current single raid provides. I mean, most single player games do not offer infinite challenge tweaking, they typically only provide 2-3 levels of difficulty. All we’re asking for here is two, there is no slippery slope or anything, just two. One that is the current level of challenge, and one that is more equivalent to the standard of difficulty in the rest of the game. There is ZERO justification for anything more than that, and the only people asking for it are those who would prefer to see nothing done at all.

Ohoni.6057:

I’m not really discussing a “majority opinion,” I’m discussing "the outcome that benefits the majority of players. This would remain true regardless of the number of people expressing an opinion directly, but opening up the content to more players clearly benefits more players.

A very easy mode doesn’t benefit the majority of players, it just benefits the ultra low end of the spectrum. For anyone that has a skill level above that threshold your easy mode will be a joke done while semi-afk, nothing different to SW chest farming. I thought you said you want to contribute?

I mean, sure, there’s difference in skill level, but we weren’t talking about skill level, we were talking about the gearing.

A skilled player can do the Raid in rares, or do fractals 50+ naked. We aren’t talking about gearing, we are talking about which gear the content should be balanced around. If you balance it around random build -exotic geared- players then it’s completely different to content balanced around Ascended or high min-maxed Exotic.

The first one is a zero-effort difficulty for anyone that over-gears the content, making it look cheap. The second one though can be achieved by everyone, and IF they are good enough they can use lower quality gear and still succeed. That’s the difference.

The important thing is that the entire playerbase (even the most casual players) have access to the best gear and can use the best builds. Why balance it to something below that which will make the content for anyone who DOES have the gear look like a waste of time and take zero effort?

Right, but aren’t there already people at that point?

I’d guess very few of them, just a fraction of those actually raiding.

Right, but you got that stuff “for free” too. So far all the stuff is just basic mob drops, all you have to do is beat the mob in question. All easy mode would change is that it would have less risk of failure each time you kill the boss, but you’d actually have to kill the boss more times, so the effort involved is comparable, assuming that each player is equivalent in skill relative to the challenge level of the content.

I didn’t get those for “free”. I had to build my characters, learn to work as an actual team, find a working composition and fail repeatedly until I defeated those bosses. It wasn’t free at all, and personally I’m not on “farm status” on Spirit Vale -yet. But your easy mode doesn’t require proper character building, doesn’t require testing and finding working compositions, doesn’t require proper gear, doesn’t require anything at all… it’s a “come as you are” kind of thing, which makes it all so cheap and effortless.

As for killing the boss multiple times… so you want them to make new collection achievements for the easy mode? That changes things.

Oh but you do though! Just to clarify if it wasn’t clear enough….Person A are the people currently doing raids, the shiny medal is the unique rewards from raids (skins and currently legendary armor). You wouldn’t even be on this thread arguing if you didn’t!

I want the armor, I don’t care about the raiders. That’s the problem, you tried to present it as an issue of envy, when envy doesn’t factor into it. I don’t care to have the armor because raiders have it, I care to have the armor because I care to have the armor. That raiders currently have it is irrelevant to that.

Btw calling everyone who aspires to do anything challenging a waste of human tissue doesn’t exactly seems like a very reasoned argument does it?

No, it doesn’t, which is why I didn’t do that.

Why study for an exam and get an A? I could just as easily take 3 easy mode exams and that should give me the same A grade right!

Hey, as long as you learn the material, whatever works for you.

Why be promoted for being good at your job? I should be given a promotion for going on reddit for three times as long as that guy did his job for!

I think you’re starting to wander off track. But sure, people do get promoted for working three times as long as someone else who might work harder for 1/3 as long. It’s whoever gets the most done, right?

Frankly you are just an entitled brat who thinks they deserve everything without actually doing anything.

You do understand that we’re still talking about a game, right? That it’s about having fun, and that work in a game is not actually accomplishing anything of value to anyone other than that you might enjoy it? That’s one of the tricky things about using real world examples, like with your office example, someone doesn’t deserve a promotion for working longer OR for being “better,” they deserve a promotion only based on how much value they add to their company. A raider does not add any more value to the game through his raiding than a silverwastes chest farmer does. He is not owed anything better for his time spent raiding than someone is “owed” for running a Queensdale train.

ANet has chosen to gift raiders with superior loot, but it is a profound sense of entitlement that players who receive those gifts then turn around and say “but these can only be mine, those other people can’t have them too.”

Ohoni.6057:

Nonsense. the game, especially a living game like an MMO, DOES adapt to the player. Raids did not exist at launch. They only exist now because the game ADAPTED to players asking for more challenging content, and so they added it. When GW2 launched, it did not have the “raid” difficulty mode, it only had “normal” and “easy” modes. Raid ADDED a “hard” mode.

The game was supposed to have Raid difficulty-dungeons and even open world raid-like events at release. They just didn’t live up to their expectations, and how would they, not even the devs knew how to play the game at release. Now both in the open world (HoT maps) and instances (Raids) they went back to what they promised we would have since day 1.

And GW2 already has a ton of content with variable difficulty, like the 100 levels of Fractals, like the difficulty levels on SAB, like Challenge Motes in Story missions that ramp the challenge factor, etc., so lets not pretend that variable difficulty is some completely alien concept to the game just because you’d rather they not apply the same here.

The difficulty levels of SAB give different rewards based on that difficulty… The 100 levels of Fractals similarly have varying rewards, some of them not available at the very low levels, others available only at higher levels.

One that is the current level of challenge, and one that is more equivalent to the standard of difficulty in the rest of the game.

Heart of Thorns open world difficulty?

Ohoni.6057:

You don’t want what ‘we’ want.

Of course I want what you want. You want a level of challenge that is fun and engaging, and so do I, we have just different levels of challenge that are fun and engaging to us. I am no more comfortable with the existing level of challenge than you would be if every time you entered one of the boss fights you would just auto-wipe with no options to avoid it.

Like raise of hands, how many of you guys would enjoy the current raids if they lowered the enrage timer (or similar effects) to about 1/4 of what they currently are, and made the ones that are semi-survivable into completely lethal every time? Would that be fun for you? Would you enjoy the raids as much as you currently do? Do you think there would be high participation in them?

Hell, you probably would, but that’s why you and me are different. Please respect those differences, and don’t insist that people deserve reduced rewards just because they’re wired differently and don’t enjoy the same content you do.

And if you have done raids you will know there are lethal damage mechanics.

In my example I meant, “what if they made EVERY attack deal lethal damage?” What if every time Vg or Gorseval took a weak swing at the tank, he’d get downed? What if any time a red orb got within range of you, you’d get downed and almost instantly finished. The fact that ANet saw fit to not make that happen is as much them “carrying” you as them providing an easier mode would be them “carrying” me.

I would love if they did that because then it would be challenging content. I don’t like that you can skip VG green circle mechanics by healing through it or no updraft Gorseval and killing a boss 30minutes after it has enraged because you are all tanks.

Wing 2 has no ‘one shot’ mechanic and as a result cleared in 2 days. Now this is just me but it comes back to having ‘easy mode’. For me raids as they are are easy mode so I guess it depends on everyone’s definition of what is easy for them.

A very easy mode doesn’t benefit the majority of players, it just benefits the ultra low end of the spectrum. For anyone that has a skill level above that threshold your easy mode will be a joke done while semi-afk, nothing different to SW chest farming. I thought you said you want to contribute?

I think you’ve moved well past talking about my mode by this point then. My mode would be comparable to the other higher-end combat content in the game, within reach of the average player, but not a push-over to them as you insist.

If you balance it around random build -exotic geared- players then it’s completely different to content balanced around Ascended or high min-maxed Exotic.

Most content in the game is balanced around random build exotic characters. The only content balanced around Ascended or meta-builds are raids, high Fractals, and maybe the pre-nerf Garant.

The important thing is that the entire playerbase (even the most casual players) have access to the best gear and can use the best builds. Why balance it to something below that which will make the content for anyone who DOES have the gear look like a waste of time and take zero effort?

Because part of the goal is that it’s not FOR the min-maxers and gearheads, it’s not intended to be highly challenging and require a lot of preparation, that’s what hard mode is there for and it does that just fine. It’s intended for people to just come as they are and have fun with it, they should not need to make any special preparation besides ideally tweaking their trait balance, skill loudout, little stuff that they can do on the fly.

I didn’t get those for “free”. I had to build my characters, learn to work as an actual team, find a working composition and fail repeatedly until I defeated those bosses.

Yes, free.

You played the game in the way you enjoyed for a few hours, and people playing easy mode would be playing the game the way they enjoyed for a few hours, same-same.

And as for “proper compositions,” most of those can be found on websites, so it’s not like you have to invent that stuff from scratch.

But your easy mode doesn’t require proper character building, doesn’t require testing and finding working compositions, doesn’t require proper gear, doesn’t require anything at all… it’s a “come as you are” kind of thing, which makes it all so cheap and effortless.

Yeah, it’s lower effort, but not literally effortless, it does take effort, just of a different sort than the hard mode. And that’s working as intended.

As for killing the boss multiple times… so you want them to make new collection achievements for the easy mode? That changes things.

Did you miss that bit? My idea was that the bosses would drop fragmentary versions of the current ingredients, like right now you need five spirit threads to do one of the achievements, presumably one drops each time? In easy mode then either they would have a lower drop rate than 100%, like 30%, or they could make the easy mode drop “Spirit fibers,” which you’d need to combine three of to make a single thread, 15 in all. Or like you need to use a Living Crystal on Vale Guardian, well if you use it on the easy mode version, it turns into a “Weakly infused” stone, then a second time to get a “dimly infused stone,” then a third time to get the final version. Things like that.

Yes, this would add a bit more work than I had anticipated before I’d found out about the collection itself, but it’s still in the relatively simple “copy-paste” variety, and would not require the actual achievements to be changed.

The game was supposed to have Raid difficulty-dungeons and even open world raid-like events at release. They just didn’t live up to their expectations, and how would they, not even the devs knew how to play the game at release. Now both in the open world (HoT maps) and instances (Raids) they went back to what they promised we would have since day 1.

But it didn’t have those, and players played that game for three years before the game ADAPTED to now have raid-difficulty content. If you were right that the players must adapt to the content, never the other way around, then there never would have been raids, and you would have adapted to loving chest farming.

But no, people like what they like, and they push for what they like, and, where it makes sense, the game delivers.

Heart of Thorns open world difficulty?

Thereabouts. Most of HoT’s difficulty comes from the assumption of having other players around, very little of it is actually that bad in a party of ten, and since raids are always a party of ten, it should work out fine.

Wing 2 has no ‘one shot’ mechanic and as a result cleared in 2 days. Now this is just me but it comes back to having ‘easy mode’. For me raids as they are are easy mode so I guess it depends on everyone’s definition of what is easy for them.

Exactly “to each their own,” as they say. I hope you get your “shade of grey” level of difficulty, just as you support me getting my easy mode.

Ohoni.6057:

Nope. Not trying to change raids one bit.

Not even a little.

You like how raids are right this very minute, then good news!

Even if I get my way 100% on this, you’ll be able to log in after that patch and continue to raid exactly like you’re raiding tonight!

Nothing about that will be changing whatsoever.

There will just be another version.

and that version would be different, you might not like that version, but that’s ok. because that version is not intended for you, it is for people who are different than you are, who like different things. And they can play it, and you never have to, and everyone can be happy.

Exactly!

It such a simple idea where everyone can be happy.

Anet makes two separate difficulties of the same instance, so that people have options on how they want to play. Nothing at all changes from the current dungeon, just a “Story Mode” gets put in, that is a little easier, or shall we say, just a bit more forgiving. The timers are a little slower on some mechanics, damage is reduced on some effects, the Boss Mobs have Less HP and do a little less damage, nothing major, just a slight numbers change really. That is all you or anyone else has asked for, and yet you would think from the responses on this topic they are acting like they going to lose their only reason to live.

Anyway, as you said, Everyone Wins.

Not sure why Anyone would have a Problem with that, I guess some people can’t be happy, unless they make Someone else unhappy, how truly petty and pitiful.

STIHL.2489:

Ohoni.6057:

Nope. Not trying to change raids one bit.

Not even a little.

You like how raids are right this very minute, then good news!

Even if I get my way 100% on this, you’ll be able to log in after that patch and continue to raid exactly like you’re raiding tonight!

Nothing about that will be changing whatsoever.

There will just be another version.

and that version would be different, you might not like that version, but that’s ok. because that version is not intended for you, it is for people who are different than you are, who like different things. And they can play it, and you never have to, and everyone can be happy.

Exactly!

It such a simple idea where everyone can be happy.

Anet makes two separate difficulties of the same instance, so that people have options on how they want to play. Nothing at all changes from the current dungeon, just a “Story Mode” gets put in, that is a little easier, or shall we say, just a bit more forgiving. The timers are a little slower on some mechanics, damage is reduced on some effects, the Boss Mobs have Less HP and do a little less damage, nothing major, just a slight numbers change really. That is all you or anyone else has asked for, and yet you would think from the responses on this topic they are acting like they going to lose their only reason to live.

Anyway, as you said, Everyone Wins.

Not sure why Anyone would have a Problem with that, I guess some people can’t be happy, unless they make Someone else unhappy, how truly petty and pitiful.

The problem comes from people that do/want easy mode also saying they want the rewards from the hard mode version. If you want the damage, timers, mechanics etc reduced then the rewards will be reduced. Otherwise why would anyone do hard mode if they can get everything on easy. The path of least resistance is the one that everyone from casual to hardcore players will take.

Sird.4536:

The path of least resistance is the one that everyone from casual to hardcore players will take.

Are you saying that all the people who have been saying that they love and want the challenge were in fact lying, and would want to do an easy mode as well?

Mind = Blown

STIHL.2489:

Ohoni.6057:

Nope. Not trying to change raids one bit.

Not even a little.

You like how raids are right this very minute, then good news!

Even if I get my way 100% on this, you’ll be able to log in after that patch and continue to raid exactly like you’re raiding tonight!

Nothing about that will be changing whatsoever.

There will just be another version.

and that version would be different, you might not like that version, but that’s ok. because that version is not intended for you, it is for people who are different than you are, who like different things. And they can play it, and you never have to, and everyone can be happy.

Exactly!

It such a simple idea where everyone can be happy.

Anet makes two separate difficulties of the same instance, so that people have options on how they want to play. Nothing at all changes from the current dungeon, just a “Story Mode” gets put in, that is a little easier, or shall we say, just a bit more forgiving. The timers are a little slower on some mechanics, damage is reduced on some effects, the Boss Mobs have Less HP and do a little less damage, nothing major, just a slight numbers change really. That is all you or anyone else has asked for, and yet you would think from the responses on this topic they are acting like they going to lose their only reason to live.

Anyway, as you said, Everyone Wins.

Not sure why Anyone would have a Problem with that, I guess some people can’t be happy, unless they make Someone else unhappy, how truly petty and pitiful.

Again, the main arguments against it are:

(1) It would be a waste of developer resources, since there is already tons of easy and medium tier content in this game.

(2) It would devalue the existing rewards for raids.

Everyone does not win with easy mode raids.

I understand that some want to experience the raid content, but currently aren’t able to beat it. So they want an easy mode catered to their skill level. Where one mistake won’t cause a wipe (although they don’t currently), where you can bring a variety of builds (although you can currently), that you can beat with 9 random people (although you can currently).

Easy modes are not really a thing in Guild wars 2. I know some claim that raids are outside the baseline skill level (presumably from open world), but other content is too. Aether path in TA is much harder than a regular dungeon path. Arah is much harder than other dungeons. “Not so secret” is much harder than other jumping puzzles. Triple trouble is much harder than other world bosses.

The great thing about guild wars 2 is that you can play what you want to play. You don’t need to play everything. I don’t wvw. I don’t do dry top. But I know some people like that content, so good for them.

But I don’t demand that all content is catered to my skill level. I don’t demand access to every single skin. I don’t ask for hard mode mark ii golem. I don’t ask for hard mode cof. Why? Because there’s plenty of content that is at my skill level! Just as there’s plenty of content at yours.

I’ve seen a mania over legendary armor. Despite that you’ve lived without legendary armor for 3 years. Despite that it has the same stats as ascended. Despite that stat changing is mostly worthless. Despite that other legendaries require similar amounts of effort to achieve. Despite that we don’t even know what the skin is. (And based on ascended armor, it could be very ugly).

No one has really admitted to me the real reason they want legendary armor. The only answer I get is that “I want it because it’s in the game.” This answer is wrong on so many levels. Unless you can tell me you’ve achieved every other skin in the game, don’t tell me you need legendary armor.

I know the real reason you want it. You want the prestige. You know that it shows a certain mastery and dedication to guild wars 2. But you don’t want to put in the effort. You could learn how to beat raids. It is pve content, after all, so everything has a level of predictability that you could learn. But you don’t want to.

That’s fine. I don’t particularly like teq, so I don’t have all the teq skins. I don’t like triple trouble, so I don’t have any skins there either. But it’s just a skin. I can live without it. So can you.

STIHL.2489:

Are you saying that all the people who have been saying that they love and want the challenge were in fact lying, and would want to do an easy mode as well?

Mind = Blown

No, they wouldn’t necessarily want to do the easy mode, it would just be an advantage for them to do so- and therefore mandatory if they want to participate meaningfully in progression.

Ohoni.6057:

I think you’ve moved well past talking about my mode by this point then. My mode would be comparable to the other higher-end combat content in the game, within reach of the average player, but not a push-over to them as you insist.

Yeah, it’s lower effort, but not literally effortless, it does take effort, just of a different sort than the hard mode. And that’s working as intended.

If it’s balanced around random players with random builds then it’s push-over content. What does “to them” mean? If it’s content then it will be run by everyone, not just the those at the lowest end of the skill curve. And for everyone other than the bottom feeders it will be a joke, literally effortless in every sense of the word. Once you understand that, we can all finally move forward. How are you going to limit this easy mode to be run only by the lowest of the low skilled players?
If there is nothing in-between those to keep the other players busy. Those who find the hard mode out of their reach due to difficulty, while at the same time find your “balanced on random exotics” difficulty a joke. There is a huge distance between “joke” and “hard”.

Most content in the game is balanced around random build exotic characters. The only content balanced around Ascended or meta-builds are raids, high Fractals, and maybe the pre-nerf Garant.

I’m not quite sure many meta events in HoT are built for random exotics either. A lot of the metas DO require some builds/roles and group composition. Sure you can simply get carried by afking in a corner, but if enough players don’t use proper builds and set-ups then the events fail. High-end Explorable mode dungeons are certainly balanced around Exotics (good Exotics) – like Arah.

You played the game in the way you enjoyed for a few hours, and people playing easy mode would be playing the game the way they enjoyed for a few hours, same-same.

That’s non-sense. There is a difference between afking and playing.

And as for “proper compositions,” most of those can be found on websites, so it’s not like you have to invent that stuff from scratch.

The good composition that works on a given group is different than the one that works for another group. Although many builds are the same, they are never 100% identical. But since such websites exist, why not force everyone to use them? There is nothing preventing anyone from using those.

Yes, this would add a bit more work than I had anticipated before I’d found out about the collection itself, but it’s still in the relatively simple “copy-paste” variety, and would not require the actual achievements to be changed.

Well judging by the recent Legendary precursor abandonment, working on those collections doesn’t seem to be something easy for them.

Ohoni.6057:

But it didn’t have those, and players played that game for three years before the game ADAPTED to now have raid-difficulty content. If you were right that the players must adapt to the content, never the other way around, then there never would have been raids, and you would have adapted to loving chest farming.

It was supposed to have those, and for a couple of months it did. Both Orr events (Grenth and Balthazar most of all) and some explorable dungeons (Crucible of Eternity, Arah – especially path 4) were considered HARD for months. Then the playerbase as a whole “got good” and made them easy mode, they adapted to them, not the other way around. Then sure, they also nerfed them indirectly (Ascended, and now with the Elite specs), but it was the community who adapted to their difficulty that made farming them possible. Same with Tequatl and Triple Trouble.

Who knows, maybe the playerbase as a whole will adapt to Raids and make those easy mode too and then we won’t be asking for an easy mode anymore, but a hard mode.

Absurdo.8309:

Again, the main arguments against it are:

(1) It would be a waste of developer resources, since there is already tons of easy and medium tier content in this game.

If people want it and will enjoy it, it’s not wasted

(2) It would devalue the existing rewards for raids.

What a petty and self serving reason.

Answers in Bold.

Sarrs.4831:

No, they wouldn’t necessarily want to do the easy mode,

They they would not have to. See having choices means they can play the want, removing choices forces people to play in a way they don’t want.

If Ohoni was advocating for removing the Normal Mode and making only an Easy Mode, you would have a point, but they are not, they want to everyone to enjoy the game, and play in a way that pleases them.

Don’t you want everyone to enjoy a game?

STIHL.2489:

What a petty and self serving reason.

I want to be able to get Eternity for 1c. Do you think that would devalue Eternity?

STIHL.2489:

They they would not have to. See having choices means they can play the want, removing choices forces people to play in a way they don’t want.

No, you don’t understand what I mean. In a progression environment, tackling lower raid difficulties before doing higher ones is practically mandatory because you push into deeper phases and deeper bosses, and can get experience on bosses you haven’t seen yet in your ‘hard mode’ runs. This is especially the case in the mode suggested in which all mechanics are added; you already know everything that happens in the hard mode fight, so it’s effectively just more of the same.

STIHL.2489:

If Ohoni was advocating for removing the Normal Mode and making only an Easy Mode, you would have a point, but they are not, they want to everyone to enjoy the game, and play in a way that pleases them.

Flat nerfs to the raid would probably be a better choice than multimodal raiding.

STIHL.2489:

Don’t you want everyone to enjoy a game?

Yeah, but that doesn’t entitle you to raiding. If the only content you enjoy is easy mode raids, there’s already tons of large group content in the game in the open world.

It’s bizarre. You’re lasering in on this one specific thing, when there’s already about 30 PvE maps, 6-10 of which carry meta events, there’s 8 dungeons in the game with a total of 33 paths, Fractals, dozens of world bosses and more- not to even mention sPvP and WvW. If easy mode raids are the sole issue that’s preventing you from enjoying the game, there’s something you’re not being honest about.

maddoctor.2738:

A completely random group of non-min maxed average joes who skipped proper Exotic, AND Ascended gear tiers, with no strictly defined roles and builds, to be able to finish the Raid means absolutely no effort to do the content.

How is that easier than doing three swamps?

Besides you’re completely ignoring that we’re talking about tier 1 precursor so far. There is going to be at least one more tier, likely another 2-3. One of them is certain to be a gold and mats sink similar to the legendary weapon collection tier 2. The end armor gifts will require (as we already know) grinding not only raids, but also HoT metas. For a long time.

Seriously, ascended armor doesn’t come even close to that.

TexZero.7910:

There’s not a single logical argument made here by the “easy mode” team that doesn’t open up a can of worms when it comes to design time, balance, rewards, or the ever so slippery slope of what if their mode is still to hard for them.

Sure, if the “easy mode” will fail to actually be easy mode, then we’d have a wasted developer time, but why would you assume that anet would botch it that badly?

Nokaru.7831:

I don’t know what world you live in where you can have content be interesting for the “average player” but still be beatable by a group of 10 guardians in green gear spamming staff 1. Either the latter group will fail, or the former group will be bored to tears.

I’m pretty sure that a “group of 10 guardians in gree gear spamming staff 1” is not the balancing point he talks about. A usual tier 1 fractal pug team however should be.

maddoctor.2738:

Ohoni.6057:

Again, neither of us has access to the data necessary to provide “actual factual evidence” of anything, so the best we can do is make reasonable estimates based on the data that is available.

The question is about easy mode, not if Raids are hard or not. For example a lot of people in other threads say they want to get Legendary Armor from other types of content, like PVP or WVW or something entirely different. Those who actually want an easy mode version of the Raid might not be as many as you think they are.

Sure. But since there won’t be a second legendary armor set anytime soon, easy mode raids seem to be the most likely option at the moment.

Propose a better option, and you may kill Ohoni’s suggestion, but until that hypothetical other option becomes something more concrete, Ohoni’s “easy mode” are what people would follow. Because so far there’s only one other option that would be easier to implement. And that’s nerfing the current raids, which i bet you wouldn’t want to happen.

Hypairion.9210:

So, with a lower level of reward (that’s just logic)

Sure. But lower in quantity, not in quality.

Sird.4536:

The problem comes from people that do/want easy mode also saying they want the rewards from the hard mode version. If you want the damage, timers, mechanics etc reduced then the rewards will be reduced.

Of course they would. You’d get everything at a much slower rate compared to the hard mode version.
I’m not even opposed to bumping up current gold and non-exclusive rewards in hard mode.

Sarrs.4831:

Yeah, but that doesn’t entitle you to raiding.

You were not entitled to a raid at all to start with, and many feel that even making the raid was a total waste of resources, so, moving on, can you give me one reason that is not totally pathetically self serving to not make an easy mode?