Guild Wars 2

Overall yes, they were a bad idea. Not the introduction of raiding but the implementation, it is too much of a step up from present. They may improve play for a few but the average player has no interest in raiding. A lot of people try it, find it’s impossible for them and then stop.

As such, to keep a few people happy there are much better options. Those people could have been used to supply a hard mode for dungeons, which would have filled the same role without taking up huge areas of the open world map.

The rewards are in themselves divisive, and, as far as ‘Legendary armor’ goes worth very little, in theory at least.

Despite the fact the entrance is plainly visible they are not easily accessible and cause a disproportionate amount of bad feelings.

Hypairion.9210:

STIHL.2489:

Hypairion.9210:

Yes, you want the armor, that is the exact same reward…

Is the armor the only thing that drops in the raid?

i’m talking about the armor because Ohoni only cares about armor. I’m ok from shard from easy mode (in less quantities, since less challenge).

So you’re ok with no armor in easy mode?

LOL, I think it was a foolish move on Anet part to even remotely affiliate Legendary Armor with the raid. It has done nothing good for the game or the community on any level.

It also has the potential to negatively impact the sales for the Crystal Desert Expansion, because it’s pretty clear that some people do not support by this new direction Anet is taking, with skill gating stuff, and thus won’t bother to buy whatever comes next.

And that’s a shame, because I like this game.

This big kitten discussion.

I think raids were a great idea. They don’t take up much dev time compared to “hardmode dungeons” or another failed fractal revamp and satisfy many of the more hardcore players. Which to be fair, an MMO needs to have as well.

As for rewards though, I think they made a mistake here. IMO raiders would’ve been fine with normal exclusive skins, putting legendary armor as a reward for it was probably not a great idea. It just makes all casuals who don’t wanna put in the time extremely salty, which means a great deal of complaining as seen in this thread, which means the likely possibility the raid team will go the same way the legendary team went as soon as wing 3 is out.

The funny thing is that raiders (at least the ones I know) don’t even care much about legendary armor. They’re into meta builds and min/maxing which means the stat swap becomes borderline useless once you smack some runes onto them.

cranos.5913:

This big kitten discussion.

It’s not really that big. One person is making up about half the replies in this thread by repeatedly restating their opinion and dismissing anything to the contrary.

It’s not really that big. One person is making up about half the replies in this thread by repeatedly restating their opinion and dismissing anything to the contrary.

Honestly it really would shorten things considerably if people would actually read before posting and stopped spreading the same misinformation and nonsense.

cranos.5913:

As for rewards though, I think they made a mistake here. IMO raiders would’ve been fine with normal exclusive skins, putting legendary armor as a reward for it was probably not a great idea. It just makes all casuals who don’t wanna put in the time extremely salty, which means a great deal of complaining as seen in this thread, which means the likely possibility the raid team will go the same way the legendary team went as soon as wing 3 is out.

Gotta agree with you. Their motive to affiliate Legendary Armor with the Raid was, I assume, to boost the numbers of Raid participation so they would have some good metrics to show the bean-counters and thus justify the dev staff devoted to it.

But that has the potential to really turn around and bite them in kitten in the long run, as their casual and moderate player base feel alienated, which means they will be less likely to buy the next Expansion or even stay around at all.

STIHL.2489:

cranos.5913:

As for rewards though, I think they made a mistake here. IMO raiders would’ve been fine with normal exclusive skins, putting legendary armor as a reward for it was probably not a great idea. It just makes all casuals who don’t wanna put in the time extremely salty, which means a great deal of complaining as seen in this thread, which means the likely possibility the raid team will go the same way the legendary team went as soon as wing 3 is out.

Gotta agree with you. Their motive to affiliate Legendary Armor with the Raid was, I assume, to boost the numbers of Raid participation so they would have some good metrics to show the bean-counters and thus justify the dev staff devoted to it.

But that has the potential to really turn around and bite them in kitten in the long run, as their casual and moderate player base feel alienated, which means they will be less likely to buy the next Expansion or even stay around at all.

Anet clearly does not think that legendary’s are a driving force behind any casual players or they would not have canceled their production of them in the open world, let alone locking them behind raids.

Anet clearly does not think that legendary’s are a driving force behind any casual players or they would not have canceled their production of them in the open world, let alone locking them behind raids.

Well, they might not think that anymore, but they clearly believed it at one time or they wouldn’t have bothered with the new Legendary Collections in the first place. I think they underestimated the backlash on the material costs.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

STIHL.2489:

cranos.5913:

As for rewards though, I think they made a mistake here. IMO raiders would’ve been fine with normal exclusive skins, putting legendary armor as a reward for it was probably not a great idea. It just makes all casuals who don’t wanna put in the time extremely salty, which means a great deal of complaining as seen in this thread, which means the likely possibility the raid team will go the same way the legendary team went as soon as wing 3 is out.

Gotta agree with you. Their motive to affiliate Legendary Armor with the Raid was, I assume, to boost the numbers of Raid participation so they would have some good metrics to show the bean-counters and thus justify the dev staff devoted to it.

But that has the potential to really turn around and bite them in kitten in the long run, as their casual and moderate player base feel alienated, which means they will be less likely to buy the next Expansion or even stay around at all.

Anet clearly does not think that legendary’s are a driving force behind any casual players or they would not have canceled their production of them in the open world, let alone locking them behind raids.

The only thing we can surmise from the sudden decision to redirect development of Heart of Thorns Legendary Items, is that Heart of Thorns content does not have a priority of other content, like the up coming next Expansion.

This might be because Heart of Thorns which was designed to entertain the more Serious End-Game player, and provide more Challenging Content, was not pulling the metrics needed to justify the developer resources, and that does not bode well for the future of the Raid, which has the same target audience.

But in the end, we don’t have the metrics, we don’t work at Anet, and we don’t know their real motive.

Whatever will be.. will be.

Ohoni.6057:

Anet clearly does not think that legendary’s are a driving force behind any casual players or they would not have canceled their production of them in the open world, let alone locking them behind raids.

Well, they might not think that anymore, but they clearly believed it at one time or they wouldn’t have bothered with the new Legendary Collections in the first place. I think they underestimated the backlash on the material costs.

Personally, since it’s an easy thing to track, I would have guessed that the sudden move to redirect resources was due to the number of people bothering to acquire and competing the Heart of Thorns collections was far below their projected metrics.

STIHL.2489:

Ohoni.6057:

Anet clearly does not think that legendary’s are a driving force behind any casual players or they would not have canceled their production of them in the open world, let alone locking them behind raids.

Well, they might not think that anymore, but they clearly believed it at one time or they wouldn’t have bothered with the new Legendary Collections in the first place. I think they underestimated the backlash on the material costs.

Personally, since it’s an easy thing to track, I would have guessed that the sudden move to redirect resources was due to the number of people bothering to acquire and competing the Heart of Thorns collections was far below their projected metrics.

And i’m pretty sure they haven’t even considered the possibility that it might have something to do with people not liking HoT in general.

Just as they have decided long ago that lack of interest in Twiligh Assault means that players were disinterested in dungeons (and especially new dungeons) in general.

Or as they have decided that Twilight Arbor F/U path can be safely removed, because metrics show that noone is running it. Forgetting, that this path had a major bug that made it unfinishable for 99% of groups.

Astralporing.1957:

STIHL.2489:

Ohoni.6057:

Anet clearly does not think that legendary’s are a driving force behind any casual players or they would not have canceled their production of them in the open world, let alone locking them behind raids.

Well, they might not think that anymore, but they clearly believed it at one time or they wouldn’t have bothered with the new Legendary Collections in the first place. I think they underestimated the backlash on the material costs.

Personally, since it’s an easy thing to track, I would have guessed that the sudden move to redirect resources was due to the number of people bothering to acquire and competing the Heart of Thorns collections was far below their projected metrics.

And i’m pretty sure they haven’t even considered the possibility that it might have something to do with people not liking HoT in general.

I agree, that a lack of overall interest in HoT overall would also be a good motive to redirect development. But again, I don’t have the metrics. I don’t know what they are thinking.

Well, the metrics provide a starting point, but they need to use communication and intuition to learn where to go from there. For example, is the solution to HoT that they should abandon it completely and do something else, or reconfigure what they have there to be more acceptable to the players? For example, with the Legendary paths, was the best solution to just abandon the existing ones as they are, or to change them to have lower material costs, so that more players would be willing to invest the time in completing them? I think they could get a lot of player time out of the latter, but they went with the former.

It would really help if they actually did communicate with the players more, bounce ideas off of us before they waste months of time implementing whatever they decide internally.

STIHL.2489:

I agree, that a lack of overall interest in HoT overall would also be a good motive to redirect development. But again, I don’t have the metrics. I don’t know what they are thinking.

You missed my point. I’m saying that Anet’s having metrics doesn’t preclude them from drawing wrong conclusions from them. They have been known to do just that many times already. In this case they might see that there are relatively low numbers of people creating new legendaries and think it’s because people do not really want them, while the real reason might be people not wanting to grind HoT for mastery points, mastery experience and map currencies (as well as auric dust and leyline sparks).

Ohoni.6057:

Well, the metrics provide a starting point, but they need to use communication and intuition to learn where to go from there. For example, is the solution to HoT that they should abandon it completely and do something else, or reconfigure what they have there to be more acceptable to the players? For example, with the Legendary paths, was the best solution to just abandon the existing ones as they are, or to change them to have lower material costs, so that more players would be willing to invest the time in completing them? I think they could get a lot of player time out of the latter, but they went with the former.

It would really help if they actually did communicate with the players more, bounce ideas off of us before they waste months of time implementing whatever they decide internally.

I agree, there are a lot of factors involved. Right now, we don’t know their real reasons, or even what they are in fact doing. For all we know, they could just be moving the new legendary collections to be more involved with next expansion.

Astralporing.1957:

You missed my point. I’m saying that Anet’s having metrics doesn’t preclude them from drawing wrong conclusions from them. They have been known to do just that many times already. In this case they might see that there are relatively low numbers of people creating new legendaries and think it’s because people do not really want them, while the real reason might be people not wanting to grind HoT for mastery points, mastery experience and map currencies (as well as auric dust and leyline sparks).

I know your point exactly, and I am not disagreeing with you.

I am not really against an easy mode raid, I would like to see the story that is involved with the raids. Although I would rather like to see Anet just make legendary armor available over more ways than raiding so that I could just forget about raids like I did with aetherpath after I completed it once.

The blatant attempt of Anet to make raids valuable really bugs me more than people showing elitist behavior, the later one I can just avoid without being grumpy.
After the recent AMA, I have some hope that MO will direct the company away from raiding again after the first raid is complete.

Torolan.5816:

I am not really against an easy mode raid, I would like to see the story that is involved with the raids. Although I would rather like to see Anet just make legendary armor available over more ways than raiding so that I could just forget about raids like I did with aetherpath after I completed it once.

The blatant attempt of Anet to make raids valuable really bugs me more than people showing elitist behavior, the later one I can just avoid without being grumpy.
After the recent AMA, I have some hope that MO will direct the company away from raiding again after the first raid is complete.

I would rather have more raids and fractals. I have yet to see any ‘pro-raid’ individual say Legendary Armor should stay within Raids, we have encouraged other modes having a means to reach those same stats and convenience (personally don’t see what’s so convenient about it but whatever).

We simply ask for exclusive rewards for raids, that are not trivialized by an easier means of obtaining them much like many other instances of content doing so as well. That is it, that is all we ask for. Having those exclusive rewards earned in an ‘easier’ or ‘alternative’ means causes them to lose merit for a lot of raiders, much like how players who might do a lot of SAB would feel terrible if say the King Toad skins were made available through a SPvP reward track, or if the Mist Hero’s Skins from WvW were suddenly capable of being purchasable through Dungeon Tokens.

Keep exclusive rewards where they belong, yet have their ‘potential power and convenience’ made available globally.

It would be more than ok for me if raiders got exclusive stuff in the form of titles, skins or other badges for their efforts. Anyone who is sitting through hours of wipes and tactics indeed deserves something for his efforts. But a whole upgrade(not a tier) of an armor is misplaced there.
The irony here is that raiders probably won´t see much use in legendary armor anyway for obvious reasons and many people who would like to have the armor do not care for rune swapping and would use them much more regularly.

Lets say Anet would use an NPC where you can see the story behind raids without doing them and release legendary armor with a different skin for WVW, PVP or other PvE activities. That I would be fine with.

Torolan.5816:

It would be more than ok for me if raiders got exclusive stuff in the form of titles, skins or other badges for their efforts. Anyone who is sitting through hours of wipes and tactics indeed deserves something for his efforts. But a whole upgrade(not a tier) of an armor is misplaced there.
The irony here is that raiders probably won´t see much use in legendary armor anyway for obvious reasons and many people who would like to have the armor do not care for rune swapping and would use them much more regularly.

Lets say Anet would use an NPC where you can see the story behind raids without doing them and release legendary armor with a different skin for WVW, PVP or other PvE activities. That I would be fine with.

Everyone so far has agreed with you, that Raids should have their own reward set. Their own special skins, maybe some titles and achievement, and assorted “Shinies” to show you did it. Everyone is in favor of this.

Some people just feel that there could be an easy mode for people that want to run the raid on a less stressful setting, and others feel that it’s kinda poor move to conjunction Legendary Anything to something like a raid.

To each their own. Why Can’;t everyone have fun? Why are there always those few people that need to deny others their enjoyment? I don’t know why people are like that, and they only hurt the community.

No one wants to take away Raids, no one wants to remove the difficulty there is now, everyone believes that the raid should have it’s own little special baubles and shinies. They just want something to be made more enjoyable and accessible, and that’s not a bad thing nor too much to ask.

Sykper.6583:

Torolan.5816:

I am not really against an easy mode raid, I would like to see the story that is involved with the raids. Although I would rather like to see Anet just make legendary armor available over more ways than raiding so that I could just forget about raids like I did with aetherpath after I completed it once.

The blatant attempt of Anet to make raids valuable really bugs me more than people showing elitist behavior, the later one I can just avoid without being grumpy.
After the recent AMA, I have some hope that MO will direct the company away from raiding again after the first raid is complete.

I would rather have more raids and fractals. I have yet to see any ‘pro-raid’ individual say Legendary Armor should stay within Raids, we have encouraged other modes having a means to reach those same stats and convenience (personally don’t see what’s so convenient about it but whatever).

We simply ask for exclusive rewards for raids, that are not trivialized by an easier means of obtaining them much like many other instances of content doing so as well. That is it, that is all we ask for. Having those exclusive rewards earned in an ‘easier’ or ‘alternative’ means causes them to lose merit for a lot of raiders, much like how players who might do a lot of SAB would feel terrible if say the King Toad skins were made available through a SPvP reward track, or if the Mist Hero’s Skins from WvW were suddenly capable of being purchasable through Dungeon Tokens.

Keep exclusive rewards where they belong, yet have their ‘potential power and convenience’ made available globally.

Everyone has agreed that Raids should have their own special rewards, Unique titles & skins, assorted shinies and baubles, that would not be available in the easy mode.

Much in the same way, SAB works. There is an Normal Mode (which is pretty easy all things said and done) where anyone can get the Funky Skins, and there is a Hard Mode, and people can get their special colors and added titles and achievements to prove they did it.

Everyone can win with the SAB, they are just asking for something similar for the Raid.

Sykper.6583:

much like how players who might do a lot of SAB would feel terrible if say the King Toad skins were made available through a SPvP reward track,

Speaking as someone who has done World 1 Trib Mode at least 16 times (as I have the collection achievement), I would be okay with this happening. I want people to be in the Super Adventure Box because they enjoy it as much as I do. Not because they feel forced to in order to get access to something they want. I don’t want people to come to resent the glorious box of adventures.

If that means sacrificing my prestige, so be it.

Having the alt color set opened up for means other than the trib mode seems gross to me. I hate trib mode, but I wouldn’t want the rewards from some other method; frankly, I’d feel patronized if they say “that’s alright Sarrs you can just do this pvp track to get them”.

The base blue set, maybe. A completely separate color set, maybe. Green/Yellow/Orange? Nty.

Speaking as someone who has done World 1 Trib Mode at least 16 times (as I have the collection achievement), I would be okay with this happening. I want people to be in the Super Adventure Box because they enjoy it as much as I do. Not because they feel forced to in order to get access to something they want. I don’t want people to come to resent the glorious box of adventures.

If that means sacrificing my prestige, so be it.

You are a generally good human being.

Having the alt color set opened up for means other than the trib mode seems gross to me. I hate trib mode, but I wouldn’t want the rewards from some other method; frankly, I’d feel patronized if they say “that’s alright Sarrs you can just do this pvp track to get them”.

. . .

Sarrs.4831:

Astralporing.1957:

Ah, but easy mode is what Ohoni is after. I mainly dislike gating rewards (and specifically a gear tier) behind a content that, by design, only a small number of people is ever going to finish.

For me, any alternate way to get them that would not be so restrictive would do.

Yeah fair enough. I’m not sure if I agree with “only a small number of people will complete by design”, but I don’t think that’s strictly your point. We’ll see leg armor in other avenues, but that’s no reason to send raids as they are down the river.

Astralporing.1957:

Ah, yes, of course. Should have figured out you are just trolling.

Fun and trolling aren’t the same thing. I do enjoy these threads. They’re good exercise. If the regulars in this thread weren’t having fun, including you, you wouldn’t keep coming back.

Can you show a Dev post about them developing legendary armors for any other modes then raids please.

Would be fun to have a wvw set, pvp set, fractal of the mist set and the only one confirmed raid set.

But I havent seen anywere them saying they would do that. ( considering they cant do legendary weapons Im not holding my breath on that either )

TexZero.7910:

Ohoni.6057:

but again, it’s NOT a waste of time. You can argue all you like but no matter how long it may take it wouldn’t be a waste. Even at the absolute maximum, it would inevitably take less time than producing actual new content from scratch, and the result (with FAIR rewards), would be repeatable content that many MORE players could enjoy than the current raids. More players having fun for relatively low amount of work = impossible to be a waste of time.

It’s just something you don’t want to happen.

We’ve covered this to death….What you think is fair is a joke.

Please come back when you have something that’s even remotely close to this arbitrary term you call “Fair”.

You know what i think is “Fair”….

5s and a “We Raided” Spoon worth 10c.

It will keep you coming back right ?

You know whats fair for raids a title you beat these bosses under x minutes and 35 silver that will keep you raiding right?

Can you see how silly your above post is yet?

STIHL.2489:

Sykper.6583:

Torolan.5816:

I am not really against an easy mode raid, I would like to see the story that is involved with the raids. Although I would rather like to see Anet just make legendary armor available over more ways than raiding so that I could just forget about raids like I did with aetherpath after I completed it once.

The blatant attempt of Anet to make raids valuable really bugs me more than people showing elitist behavior, the later one I can just avoid without being grumpy.
After the recent AMA, I have some hope that MO will direct the company away from raiding again after the first raid is complete.

I would rather have more raids and fractals. I have yet to see any ‘pro-raid’ individual say Legendary Armor should stay within Raids, we have encouraged other modes having a means to reach those same stats and convenience (personally don’t see what’s so convenient about it but whatever).

We simply ask for exclusive rewards for raids, that are not trivialized by an easier means of obtaining them much like many other instances of content doing so as well. That is it, that is all we ask for. Having those exclusive rewards earned in an ‘easier’ or ‘alternative’ means causes them to lose merit for a lot of raiders, much like how players who might do a lot of SAB would feel terrible if say the King Toad skins were made available through a SPvP reward track, or if the Mist Hero’s Skins from WvW were suddenly capable of being purchasable through Dungeon Tokens.

Keep exclusive rewards where they belong, yet have their ‘potential power and convenience’ made available globally.

Everyone has agreed that Raids should have their own special rewards, Unique titles & skins, assorted shinies and baubles, that would not be available in the easy mode.

Much in the same way, SAB works. There is an Normal Mode (which is pretty easy all things said and done) where anyone can get the Funky Skins, and there is a Hard Mode, and people can get their special colors and added titles and achievements to prove they did it.

Everyone can win with the SAB, they are just asking for something similar for the Raid.

Totally agree with you. Actual raids should keep their unique rewards, such as skins, legendary armor or titles, whereas easy mode raids should have some magnetite shards (but in less quantities since it’s easy mode) so that players could buy ascended stuff, which could help people to be ready for normal raids.

Linken.6345:

Can you show a Dev post about them developing legendary armors for any other modes then raids please.

Given that they have stopped Legendary Development, in general. There is currently no development for Legendary Armor, even IN the Raid.

Nokaru.7831:

They have so lost the argument that they are now just regurgitating the same old trash in hope that people forgot that it got shot to death 10 pages ago.

No one has won or lost this “argument” because it’s just two contrary opinions clashing over and over again. “I think this is a good idea!” vs. "No, I like how things are now! " The end. It’s interesting to me though to see how toxic people become the more they must interact with those that do not agree with everything they say.

Honestly, it’s been my experience that the most toxic people are the elitist, not the elite players, but the elitist players. Truth is, players that are highly skilled often have nothing to prove, so they are typically really great people, however, it’s the elitist players, those with something to prove that cause all the problems. In fact, if you look at any long running topic like this, you will see that almost all the initiation of hostilities come from Elitist and that is because being toxic is a byproduct of their base stand that they simply don’t want to share. They approach things with the adamant point that the only way they can have fun, is if they deny other people the ability to have fun as well, and I don’t believe that it is possible to have that stand, and not be inherently toxic, because that stand can only come from a greedy self serving motive.

STIHL.2489:

Linken.6345:

Can you show a Dev post about them developing legendary armors for any other modes then raids please.

Given that they have stopped Legendary Development, in general. There is currently no development for Legendary Armor, even IN the Raid.

Oh I thought that was only weapons
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Legendary-weapons-6/page/5#post6062019

STIHL.2489:

Nokaru.7831:

They have so lost the argument that they are now just regurgitating the same old trash in hope that people forgot that it got shot to death 10 pages ago.

No one has won or lost this “argument” because it’s just two contrary opinions clashing over and over again. “I think this is a good idea!” vs. "No, I like how things are now! " The end. It’s interesting to me though to see how toxic people become the more they must interact with those that do not agree with everything they say.

Honestly, it’s been my experience that the most toxic people are the elitist, not the elite players, but the elitist players. Truth is, players that are highly skilled often have nothing to prove, so they are typically really great people, however, it’s the elitist players, those with something to prove that cause all the problems. In fact, if you look at any long running topic like this, you will see that almost all the initiation of hostilities come from Elitist and that is because being toxic is a byproduct of their base stand that they simply don’t want to share. They approach things with the adamant point that the only way they can have fun, is if they deny other people the ability to have fun as well, and I don’t believe that it is possible to have that stand, and not be inherently toxic, because that stand can only come from a greedy self serving motive.

Insulting the other side through ad hominem attacks does not really help your case.

I’ll repeat myself again here. There are two main arguments against easy mode raids. 1) It would be a waste of developer resources 2) Anet would unlikely be able to balance the rewards.

I’m not trying to deny people fun. I don’t think I’m being toxic. I truly believe that other content in the game already satisfies everything you’re asking for. And I’d rather have Anet develop those resources.

I actually think it’s a win-win to develop something like fractals, as opposed to easy mode raids. Because: raiders would get to enjoy both sets of content, and non raiders would have more content at their skill level.

As to rewards, the argument seems to have shifted away from exclusive skins to legendary armor. (I think this shift is a result of super adventure box, because the hard mode there does have exclusive skins. And while you can earn baubles in easy mode, it’s not really a feasible way to acquire the blue weapons either.)

Yes, most raiders are not opposed to alternate methods to acquire legendary armor. But we don’t want a watered-down version of the current method. From a raiders perspective, that would be akin to awarding king toad skins to anyone who completed infantile mode X amount of times.

Absurdo.8309:

Insulting the other side through ad hominem attacks does not really help your case.

to be fair, one can be elite without being elitist, and one can be elitist without actually being elite. being elitist is uncool… regardless if you actually are elite or not. it’s rude, exclusionary, and does not build the community… it is, dare i say it, toxic… and it is no ad hominem to say so, because it’s the truth.

STIHL.2489:

Nokaru.7831:

They have so lost the argument that they are now just regurgitating the same old trash in hope that people forgot that it got shot to death 10 pages ago.

No one has won or lost this “argument” because it’s just two contrary opinions clashing over and over again. “I think this is a good idea!” vs. "No, I like how things are now! " The end. It’s interesting to me though to see how toxic people become the more they must interact with those that do not agree with everything they say.

Honestly, it’s been my experience that the most toxic people are the elitist, not the elite players, but the elitist players. Truth is, players that are highly skilled often have nothing to prove, so they are typically really great people, however, it’s the elitist players, those with something to prove that cause all the problems. In fact, if you look at any long running topic like this, you will see that almost all the initiation of hostilities come from Elitist and that is because being toxic is a byproduct of their base stand that they simply don’t want to share. They approach things with the adamant point that the only way they can have fun, is if they deny other people the ability to have fun as well, and I don’t believe that it is possible to have that stand, and not be inherently toxic, because that stand can only come from a greedy self serving motive.

It’s been my experience the most toxic players are on the other side of the spectrum. The nomad players who don’t want to alter their build, refuse to take any utilities that would benefit their team because they just loved their tanky WoW paladin and then talk all salty and hateful on the forums/reddit about these so-called “elitists” who dared asking to bring something that actually benefits the group.

cranos.5913:

STIHL.2489:

Honestly, it’s been my experience that the most toxic people are the elitist, not the elite players, but the elitist players. Truth is, players that are highly skilled often have nothing to prove, so they are typically really great people, however, it’s the elitist players, those with something to prove that cause all the problems. In fact, if you look at any long running topic like this, you will see that almost all the initiation of hostilities come from Elitist and that is because being toxic is a byproduct of their base stand that they simply don’t want to share. They approach things with the adamant point that the only way they can have fun, is if they deny other people the ability to have fun as well, and I don’t believe that it is possible to have that stand, and not be inherently toxic, because that stand can only come from a greedy self serving motive.

It’s been my experience the most toxic players are on the other side of the spectrum. The nomad players who don’t want to alter their build, refuse to take any utilities that would benefit their team because they just loved their tanky WoW paladin and then talk all salty and hateful on the forums/reddit about these so-called “elitists” who dared asking to bring something that actually benefits the group.

And my experience is that toxic player exist on all sides of the spectrum. And it’s pointless to try to figure out which side is more toxic because that’s not quantifiable.

Thaddeus.4891:

cranos.5913:

STIHL.2489:

Honestly, it’s been my experience that the most toxic people are the elitist, not the elite players, but the elitist players. Truth is, players that are highly skilled often have nothing to prove, so they are typically really great people, however, it’s the elitist players, those with something to prove that cause all the problems. In fact, if you look at any long running topic like this, you will see that almost all the initiation of hostilities come from Elitist and that is because being toxic is a byproduct of their base stand that they simply don’t want to share. They approach things with the adamant point that the only way they can have fun, is if they deny other people the ability to have fun as well, and I don’t believe that it is possible to have that stand, and not be inherently toxic, because that stand can only come from a greedy self serving motive.

It’s been my experience the most toxic players are on the other side of the spectrum. The nomad players who don’t want to alter their build, refuse to take any utilities that would benefit their team because they just loved their tanky WoW paladin and then talk all salty and hateful on the forums/reddit about these so-called “elitists” who dared asking to bring something that actually benefits the group.

And my experience is that toxic player exist on all sides of the spectrum. And it’s pointless to try to figure out which side is more toxic because that’s not quantifiable.

Ofc and they exist everywhere. Fail a Gerent, play a non-meta build in pvp (doesn’t even have to be ranked), inter-server WvW drama, etc etc… But hey, he wants to make generalizations then I can go there too. :P

cranos.5913:

Ofc and they exist everywhere. Fail a Gerent, play a non-meta build in pvp (doesn’t even have to be ranked), inter-server WvW drama, etc etc… But hey, he wants to make generalizations then I can go there too. :P

Yes and he probably want to makes generalization become someone on the other sides did generalizations before. And someone will probably make generalization because you made generalization in that post. That doesn’t help the conversation to just use the worst exemple of the other side and paint all the other side with that.

cranos.5913:

As for rewards though, I think they made a mistake here. IMO raiders would’ve been fine with normal exclusive skins, putting legendary armor as a reward for it was probably not a great idea. It just makes all casuals who don’t wanna put in the time extremely salty, which means a great deal of complaining as seen in this thread, which means the likely possibility the raid team will go the same way the legendary team went as soon as wing 3 is out.

I am not sure it is a bad idea if it is planned ahead. By that I mean every expansion will receive its amount of powercreep. It happens in every game and it drives also people into new content. So one could expect that after next expac release, Raid 1 will be easier than today, so eventually everyone will get at least one set of legendary armor. The better player will get it faster, the others later, I don’t really see why it is a problem.

So far my guild is not able to beat Gorseval (well everybody in PUG group can but we as a group can’t…) so I don’t count myself as one of those who will get his armor quick, but at least I try

cranos.5913:

The funny thing is that raiders (at least the ones I know) don’t even care much about legendary armor. They’re into meta builds and min/maxing which means the stat swap becomes borderline useless once you smack some runes onto them.

This argument can be the same for non raiders then because they barely need more than exotic which is quite cheap to do. But the rune problem is the same for everyone.

Absurdo.8309:

STIHL.2489:

Nokaru.7831:

They have so lost the argument that they are now just regurgitating the same old trash in hope that people forgot that it got shot to death 10 pages ago.

No one has won or lost this “argument” because it’s just two contrary opinions clashing over and over again. “I think this is a good idea!” vs. "No, I like how things are now! " The end. It’s interesting to me though to see how toxic people become the more they must interact with those that do not agree with everything they say.

Honestly, it’s been my experience that the most toxic people are the elitist, not the elite players, but the elitist players. Truth is, players that are highly skilled often have nothing to prove, so they are typically really great people, however, it’s the elitist players, those with something to prove that cause all the problems. In fact, if you look at any long running topic like this, you will see that almost all the initiation of hostilities come from Elitist and that is because being toxic is a byproduct of their base stand that they simply don’t want to share. They approach things with the adamant point that the only way they can have fun, is if they deny other people the ability to have fun as well, and I don’t believe that it is possible to have that stand, and not be inherently toxic, because that stand can only come from a greedy self serving motive.

Insulting the other side through ad hominem attacks does not really help your case.

It’s not an Ad Hominem, as that is against the person, and I have not said anything against an individual.

However, it’s also true. Look at any gaming forum, from Hello Kitty to Mortalis, from Aion to WoW, every elitist is the same, they all say about the same thing too, look at every game forum, it’s same responses from the Elitist crowed when there is any request to make content more accessible. That is because they all have the same underlying motive, to build up their own smug feelings of superiority by putting other people down. It is impossible for that kind of person not to be toxic, because their entire goal is to derive pleasure at the expense of others.

It’s unfortunate that people like that even exist, but they do, and really destroy a community. There is no need for that kind of mindset in any MMO, especially one like GW2, which (outside it’s PvP content) is about one step above Second Life, on Difficulty Scale. I love GW2, it’;s a fun MMO, but in comparison to games like Eve, Mortalis, and Ark, Bragging about being a top tier PvE player in GW2, is like saying you sit at the front of the short bus of MMO’s, if you get my drift.

Now, I have not called anyone an Elitist, but if the shoe fits, lace that sucker up and wear it.

I’ll repeat myself again here. There are two main arguments against easy mode raids. 1) It would be a waste of developer resources 2) Anet would unlikely be able to balance the rewards.

Oh this again.

Ok cracks knuckles

• It would be a Waste of Developer Resources.

This is hard one to counter without really questioning how naive this person is. Never mind the fact they have no idea what resources the company has at it’s disposal, or even what the actual metrics are, beyond that, it shows that have no idea what an ROI is, to begin with. So it the Lets go with that. To start off, any content that does not cater to at least around 60 – 70% of the games population is a potential waste of resources, in case you missed this, this game is a product, something the company needs to sell , if content is not at least reaching 50%+ of the game’s population, it’s a risk to take due to lost sales and lost customers. I mean we are talking Basic CS, here, if you can’t make at least half your clients happy, you’re doing it wrong. Making anything that caters to what could amount to 10%, at the expense of the other 90%, is a total and utter complete waste of time on every level, in fact, basic economics would make it painfully clear that going in that direction is not just a waste of time due to limited ROI due to demographic constraints, since it is done at the expense of your other clients, it runs the risk of being determent to your finical future goals. Unless your plan was to loose money. So walking in, we can see that Raids, were a waste of time to even make to start with, unless at least 50+ of the population will enjoy them. Which, if that was the case, it would not be “elite” content, now would it?

To devote resources to making this content available to 50%+ of the population, would be about the only move since their inception that made any sense at all, from any design perspective. Sorry to burst you bubble, but making content/product for the small minority, is simply not a profitable move, unless, it is done in such a way that it is not at the expense of your other clientele. That is just basic business logic.

But the main reason why this falls flat, is because if a company has the resources to waste on making content for the 10% of their population, they must have an abundance of resources they can use to make that same content available to the other 90%.

• Balancing rewards

Yah, I personally love this one, nothing screams grasping at straws then when people start to call the development staff incompetent. Best argument ever.

Sarrs.4831:

The base blue set, maybe. A completely separate color set, maybe. Green/Yellow/Orange? Nty.

Orange is on the TP. It drops from any of the modes, and is also available via a daily. Orange isn’t the prestige you think it is.

STIHL.2489:

Absurdo.8309:

STIHL.2489:

Nokaru.7831:

They have so lost the argument that they are now just regurgitating the same old trash in hope that people forgot that it got shot to death 10 pages ago.

No one has won or lost this “argument” because it’s just two contrary opinions clashing over and over again. “I think this is a good idea!” vs. "No, I like how things are now! " The end. It’s interesting to me though to see how toxic people become the more they must interact with those that do not agree with everything they say.

Honestly, it’s been my experience that the most toxic people are the elitist, not the elite players, but the elitist players. Truth is, players that are highly skilled often have nothing to prove, so they are typically really great people, however, it’s the elitist players, those with something to prove that cause all the problems. In fact, if you look at any long running topic like this, you will see that almost all the initiation of hostilities come from Elitist and that is because being toxic is a byproduct of their base stand that they simply don’t want to share. They approach things with the adamant point that the only way they can have fun, is if they deny other people the ability to have fun as well, and I don’t believe that it is possible to have that stand, and not be inherently toxic, because that stand can only come from a greedy self serving motive.

Insulting the other side through ad hominem attacks does not really help your case.

It’s not an Ad Hominem, as that is against the person, and I have not said anything against an individual.

However, it’s also true. Look at any gaming forum, from Hello Kitty to Mortalis, from Aion to WoW, every elitist is the same, they all say about the same thing too, look at every game forum, it’s same responses from the Elitist crowed when there is any request to make content more accessible. That is because they all have the same underlying motive, to build up their own smug feelings of superiority by putting other people down. It is impossible for that kind of person not to be toxic, because their entire goal is to derive pleasure at the expense of others.

It’s unfortunate that people like that even exist, but they do, and really destroy a community. There is no need for that kind of mindset in any MMO, especially one like GW2, which (outside it’s PvP content) is about one step above Second Life, on Difficulty Scale. I love GW2, it’;s a fun MMO, but in comparison to games like Eve, Mortalis, and Ark, Bragging about being a top tier PvE player in GW2, is like saying you sit at the front of the short bus of MMO’s, if you get my drift.

Now, I have not called anyone an Elitist, but if the shoe fits, lace that sucker up and wear it.

I’ll repeat myself again here. There are two main arguments against easy mode raids. 1) It would be a waste of developer resources 2) Anet would unlikely be able to balance the rewards.

Oh this again.

Ok cracks knuckles

• It would be a Waste of Developer Resources.

This is hard one to counter without really questioning how naive this person is. Never mind the fact they have no idea what resources the company has at it’s disposal, or even what the actual metrics are, beyond that, it shows that have no idea what an ROI is, to begin with. So it the Lets go with that. To start off, any content that does not cater to at least around 60 – 70% of the games population is a potential waste of resources, in case you missed this, this game is a product, something the company needs to sell , if content is not at least reaching 50%+ of the game’s population, it’s a risk to take due to lost sales and lost customers. I mean we are talking Basic CS, here, if you can’t make at least half your clients happy, you’re doing it wrong. Making anything that caters to what could amount to 10%, at the expense of the other 90%, is a total and utter complete waste of time on every level, in fact, basic economics would make it painfully clear that going in that direction is not just a waste of time due to limited ROI due to demographic constraints, since it is done at the expense of your other clients, it runs the risk of being determent to your finical future goals. Unless your plan was to loose money. So walking in, we can see that Raids, were a waste of time to even make to start with, unless at least 50+ of the population will enjoy them. Which, if that was the case, it would not be “elite” content, now would it?

To devote resources to making this content available to 50%+ of the population, would be about the only move since their inception that made any sense at all, from any design perspective. Sorry to burst you bubble, but making content/product for the small minority, is simply not a profitable move, unless, it is done in such a way that it is not at the expense of your other clientele. That is just basic business logic.

But the main reason why this falls flat, is because if a company has the resources to waste on making content for the 10% of their population, they must have an abundance of resources they can use to make that same content available to the other 90%.

• Balancing rewards

Yah, I personally love this one, nothing screams grasping at straws then when people start to call the development staff incompetent. Best argument ever.

I’m not really sure where to start here.

I won’t pretend to be a logician. The first line of the Wikipedia article on ad hominem defines it as “a logical fallacy in which an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.”

I think your post fairly fits this description. You call “elitists” greedy, toxic, and self serving. Even in your response, you continue this trend. I haven’t played many other MMOs. Do I fit your description?

However, it’s also true. Look at any gaming forum, from Hello Kitty to Mortalis, from Aion to WoW, every elitist is the same, they all say about the same thing too, look at every game forum, it’s same responses from the Elitist crowed when there is any request to make content more accessible. That is because they all have the same underlying motive, to build up their own smug feelings of superiority by putting other people down. It is impossible for that kind of person not to be toxic, because their entire goal is to derive pleasure at the expense of others.

Now, onto the merits. I have no training in sales or customer support. But I have a feeling you are pulling these percentages out of thin air.

Surely not everything needs to cater to 50% of the population. Heck, Guild wars 2 is so diverse, it would be extraordinary if anything catered to that percentage of players. I doubt fractals, pvp, or wvw meets those percentages.

And I think you overestimate how popular easy mode raids would be. You still need to wrangle 10 people together. And, if it requires almost no organization, then what’s the difference between easy mode raids and a world boss, a dungeon, or a fractal? I contend the content you want already exists in the game.

I also think that you overstate how non raiders are “harmed” by raids. The best argument that I see is that anet would put disproportionate resources towards a game mode that a large chunk of players would not find fun. But this doesn’t seem to be the case, as the developer team for raids is relatively small, and anet exceeded their raid participation goals.

I also think you’re underestimating how difficult it would be to balance rewards for easy mode raids. I’m not calling anet incompetent per se. But their track record in this area is not the greatest – see dungeons and fractals.

I just want to talk about the merits. Neither side needs to resort to insulting “elitists” or “casuals.”

Given that they have stopped Legendary Development, in general. There is currently no development for Legendary Armor, even IN the Raid.

I think armor is still in development, just not the weapons. Still, it’s highly unlikely that they would design an entirely new method of earning them any time soon, so “you can have Legendary armor, just not in easy mode raids” is basically “let them eat cake.”

I’ll repeat myself again here. There are two main arguments against easy mode raids. 1) It would be a waste of developer resources 2) Anet would unlikely be able to balance the rewards.

And 1 is for ANet to decide, not you, and 2, probably not, but don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good. However they balance it out would be better than what we’ve got now, so let’s try to help them arrive at a fair solution, and hope that they’re willing to tweak things after the fact. Since rewards would be weekly, players could not rapidly farm easy mode like crazy before they could get a patch in.

I’m not trying to deny people fun. I don’t think I’m being toxic. I truly believe that other content in the game already satisfies everything you’re asking for. And I’d rather have Anet develop those resources.

That argument is a fair one, right up to the moment anyone tells you “no, that is not a case.” At that point you have no option but to take their word on that, and either help them to achieve what they do want, or admit that you just don’t care whether or not they get what they want.

I actually think it’s a win-win to develop something like fractals, as opposed to easy mode raids. Because: raiders would get to enjoy both sets of content, and non raiders would have more content at their skill level.

Fractals is an entirely different issue. Nothing to do with this topic.

Yes, most raiders are not opposed to alternate methods to acquire legendary armor. But we don’t want a watered-down version of the current method. From a raiders perspective, that would be akin to awarding king toad skins to anyone who completed infantile mode X amount of times.

Why not?

Ohoni.6057:

“you can have Legendary armor, just not in easy mode raids” is basically “let them eat cake.”

Not even close.

The quote (inaccurately ascribed to Marie Antoinette), refers to suggesting that people without access to the staple of their diet (bread) eat dessert instead. In this case the staple (exotic and ascended gear) is available outside of raids while it is the fluff, dessert, item, that is restricted.

Gene Archer.8560:

Speaking as someone who has done World 1 Trib Mode at least 16 times (as I have the collection achievement), I would be okay with this happening. I want people to be in the Super Adventure Box because they enjoy it as much as I do. Not because they feel forced to in order to get access to something they want. I don’t want people to come to resent the glorious box of adventures.

If that means sacrificing my prestige, so be it.

That’s fairly humble of you, but others would disagree with wanting to ‘give up the prestige’. They have a right to ownership when they worked hard for their success.

Nevertheless, going to re-iterate my previous point here:

What it comes down to is that rewards are seen at face-value (appearance) and to what extent they are within your (or anyone else sharing this same view) reach. I see rewards, all rewards, in this game as a carrot on a stick to do that content, however easy, hard or accessible it is, and to some extent it’s appearance. Some rewards gain a kind of merit from this either through time, difficulty, or exclusivity.

Which of these two views on rewards is healthier for an MMO? Would an MMO last long if all future content could have those new rewards offered by something in previous and known content? Would spending time and resources on drafting up an ‘easier version’ or an ‘easier content type’ be worthwhile in keeping veterans interested in that mode around?

Sykper.6583:

Which of these two views on rewards is healthier for an MMO? Would an MMO last long if all future content could have those new rewards offered by something in previous and known content? Would spending time and resources on drafting up an ‘easier version’ or an ‘easier content type’ be worthwhile in keeping veterans interested in that mode around?

That depends on for whom the said MMO is for. In games like gw2, where not only new players, but also the veterans are mostly casual? Yes, most likely it would be worth it.

Ohoni.6057:

“you can have Legendary armor, just not in easy mode raids” is basically “let them eat cake.”

Not even close.

The quote (inaccurately ascribed to Marie Antoinette), refers to suggesting that people without access to the staple of their diet (bread) eat dessert instead. In this case the staple (exotic and ascended gear) is available outside of raids while it is the fluff, dessert, item, that is restricted.

You missed the forest for the trees here. My point was, that given the likelihood that they won’t be working on any “alternate method of earning Legendaries” any time soon, given their retrenching on Legendary Weapons, any suggestion of “you can have them, but only through an alternate method” is essentially saying “you can have them, but only never.” It’s disingenuous in the current environment.

If they don’t add easy raiding at all, of course the point is moot, but I have reason to suspect that they will add some sort of easy mode raiding in the relatively near future, nearer than any other significant change, and that if they DO add it at all, then attaching Legendary Armor to it would be the easiest method of them adding them to the game, short of just mailing everyone a box, and therefore the most likely to actually get implemented within the same timeframe.

If you could guarantee that they would release both “easy mode raids” and “alternate PvE path to Legendary Armor” at the same time, then fair enough, I could take both separately, but given the unlikely nature of that, I still see it as a backhanded dismissal.

That’s fairly humble of you, but others would disagree with wanting to ‘give up the prestige’. They have a right to ownership when they worked hard for their success.

No. They have no “right to prestige.” Prestige is given, not taken, and no player “owns” prestige, they are only borrowing it until such time and people decide they don’t care (which in most cases is “immediately”). If people want to feel good about themselves because they completed a raid, then good for them. If they want other people to feel good about them because they completed a raid, well there’s no value in that, that’s just pointless vainglory, and should never be used as justification for keeping items out of the hands of people who want them.

Which of these two views on rewards is healthier for an MMO? Would an MMO last long if all future content could have those new rewards offered by something in previous and known content?

When new content is fun, people will do it because it is new and fun. You shouldn’t need to bribe people to play good content. As I’ve said, I think it’s fine to offer short term rewards as “door buster” prizes for content that they want players to try, but long term goals should be more flexible to the players’ choices.

Would spending time and resources on drafting up an ‘easier version’ or an ‘easier content type’ be worthwhile in keeping veterans interested in that mode around?

I assume that’s a rhetorical question.

Absurdo.8309:

I’m not really sure where to start here.

I won’t pretend to be a logician. The first line of the Wikipedia article on ad hominem defines it as “a logical fallacy in which an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.”

I think your post fairly fits this description. You call “elitists” greedy, toxic, and self serving. Even in your response, you continue this trend. I haven’t played many other MMOs. Do I fit your description?

I have not called anyone, anything, if that is the kind of player or person you self identity with that is on you, not me.

Now, onto the merits. I have no training in sales or customer support. But I have a feeling you are pulling these percentages out of thin air.

Surely not everything needs to cater to 50% of the population. Heck, Guild wars 2 is so diverse, it would be extraordinary if anything catered to that percentage of players. I doubt fractals, pvp, or wvw meets those percentages.

You see an MMO, for it to survive, needs to maintain an established player base, with minimal turnover. Ok so you might not grasp the idea of an established client, but this is someone that knows your product, likes it, and continues to keep a vested interest in it. Now, do you honestly think that when a company, like say, Apple, when they put out a new product, that they only expect half of the people who already like Apple Products, to like their next product?

Do you really think they would strive to reach such a small demographic of already loyal customers? Now sure, specialty products do come up, they target a specific demographic, but never at the cost of the larger client base, unless of course the smaller sampling can net greater profit, then like any good company, you follow the money.

But ideally, most companies try and satisfy as many of their established clients as possible as that is often the most dependable and reliable way to net the largest profit.

The best argument that I see is that anet would put disproportionate resources towards a game mode that a large chunk of players would not find fun.

They have already done this by making the raids in the first place.

The question is, will it become Anets, 707, or will it become their New Coke?

I don’t know the answer to that.

Personally, I don’t think Raids added anything to the game. I think somehow linking Legendary Armor to the raid was a bad move, and I believe it will generate feelings of resentment by players who really fell in love with the idea of how in mainland Tyira, anyone could work their way towards a legendary weapon without ever needing to deal with skill checks or elitist players.

I hope Anet knows what they are doing.

In that, it’s their game. I guess I have to trust their decisions.

With that, I’m done with this.

Astralporing.1957:

Sykper.6583:

Which of these two views on rewards is healthier for an MMO? Would an MMO last long if all future content could have those new rewards offered by something in previous and known content? Would spending time and resources on drafting up an ‘easier version’ or an ‘easier content type’ be worthwhile in keeping veterans interested in that mode around?

That depends on for whom the said MMO is for. In games like gw2, where not only new players, but also the veterans are mostly casual? Yes, most likely it would be worth it.

Please define casual in this regard. Actually if possible could we avoid using this term all together? There are literally threads discussing what is casual and what is not, who is more casual, can you be a casual hardcore, etc.

I want this point elaborated more. And carefully since you seem to be aware of the numbers this game has in any given game-mode.

Ohoni.6057:

No. They have no “right to prestige.” Prestige is given, not taken, and no player “owns” prestige, they are only borrowing it until such time and people decide they don’t care (which in most cases is “immediately”). If people want to feel good about themselves because they completed a raid, then good for them. If they want other people to feel good about them because they completed a raid, well there’s no value in that, that’s just pointless vainglory, and should never be used as justification for keeping items out of the hands of people who want them.

Players who earn these items aren’t showboating them in LA demanding compliments from everyone, however it is imperative that their work is not diminished when the trophy they worked so hard for is made readily available for everyone. We will eternally disagree on that last point due to how we both perceive rewards.

Ohoni.6057:

When new content is fun, people will do it because it is new and fun. You shouldn’t need to bribe people to play good content. As I’ve said, I think it’s fine to offer short term rewards as “door buster” prizes for content that they want players to try, but long term goals should be more flexible to the players’ choices.

Everything in this game gives you something. Everytime you log in, even if you log in you get a reward for doing so. An MMO is carried by a combination of good fun content with balanced rewards. MMOs carry a different standard of rewarding players than any other genre, and setting up a mechanism of rewards you would see in a single player game would make for a soon to be cancelled MMO since you can’t keep players from coming back.

Essentially, if there wasn’t a carrot on a stick, then no MMO to this date has come out with good content. None.

Ohoni.6057:

I assume that’s a rhetorical question.

Yep.

Please define casual in this regard. Actually if possible could we avoid using this term all together? There are literally threads discussing what is casual and what is not, who is more casual, can you be a casual hardcore, etc.

It’s a contextual term. Within this context, it refers to players who do not want to have to take things super-seriously, who do not want to have to min-max or pay 110% attention every single second to survive an encounter.

Players who earn these items aren’t showboating them in LA demanding compliments from everyone, however it is imperative that their work is not diminished when the trophy they worked so hard for is made readily available for everyone.

No, that’s completely unimportant. Their worth should not be in how few people have them, but in the knowledge that that player completed the goal in the first place. A good player should take pride in his accomplishments, not in what items were gifted to him as he accomplished those things. A new player getting something for free that you really had to work for does not devalue your accomplishments in any way. You still did those things, they still did not.

We will eternally disagree on that last point due to how we both perceive rewards.

And I’m fine with that, so long as you don’t try to use it as a reason to restrict rewards from people who want them.

Everything in this game gives you something. Everytime you log in, even if you log in you get a reward for doing so. An MMO is carried by a combination of good fun content with balanced rewards. MMOs carry a different standard of rewarding players than any other genre, and setting up a mechanism of rewards you would see in a single player game would make for a soon to be cancelled MMO since you can’t keep players from coming back.

The systems I favor would keep players coming back MORE than any other, since it would take as long, or longer, to earn anything, but they could do so playing whatever content they prefer, rather than feeling like they have to be doing X or Y or else they are wasting their time. Players should not feel led around the node by whatever rewards are assigned to specific content. They should choose content entirely based on what they want to do with their time, and then rewards should flow appropriately from that choice.

There would still be carrots, you could just choose where you get those carrots.

Gene Archer.8560:

Orange is on the TP. It drops from any of the modes, and is also available via a daily. Orange isn’t the prestige you think it is.

Oh, it’s BoE? Didn’t know that. I thought it was exclusively from the daily/‘weekly’/collections.

I’m fine with difficulty teirs so long as kills in easy mode do not count towards unlocking the legendary armor.

I’m fine with difficulty teirs so long as kills in easy mode do not count towards unlocking the legendary armor.

Then what PvE method would you prefer for earning Legendary armor outside of raids?