Guild Wars 2

Thaddeus.4891:

Absurdo.8309:

I would argue that if you have the time to commit over a year to a legendary, then you can learn how to do raids.

Take time to accumulate what you need isn’t the same as having a skill gate. For exemple, if it take about 200 hours to craft a legendary item. An hardcore player could do that in like 5 weeks by playing 40 hours per week. But a casual playing only 5 hours per week will be able to get it in 40 weeks. It’s not a big commitment really, he just play a bit each week, but he will still have a long term goal and frankly that represent most players in gw2 going after a Legendary. Either because you only play 5 hours per week in the game or because you only put 5 hours per week toward your legendary, while the rest of your time you play something else in the game that doesn’t really help you toward your legendary. You can’t do that with raid.

Again. IMO all legendary should need a heavy commitment. Either by asking to be good in several portion of the game or to master one specific portion of the game. PvP legendary should ask you to be Dragon in Diamon League, WvW should ask you to have more than 1 thousand kills or at least a rank of several hundreds, it should ask you to go through raid, etc.

But Anet didn’t do that for any of the Legendary item so far. Either you put legendary behind heavy commitment or you don’t. Either you ask for a skill gate or you don’t. If all of your Legendary don’t ask that, except one, that just weird design. Especially since it’s the only version of Legendary armor in the game. I wouldn’t be against it if that was just the skin that was lock behind raid.

I’m not sure I completely understand your response. I’m positing that if you commit the time, like 5 hours a week for 40 weeks, you’ll learn enough to beat the raid. Yes, you’ll need to get better than you were at week 0, but that’s what the 40 weeks of practice is for.

Yes, you’ll need to get better. Is that too much to ask for a legendary item?

Absurdo.8309:

I’m not sure I completely understand your response. I’m positing that if you commit the time, like 5 hours a week for 40 weeks, you’ll learn enough to beat the raid. Yes, you’ll need to get better than you were at week 0, but that’s what the 40 weeks of practice is for.

Yes, you’ll need to get better. Is that too much to ask for a legendary item?

Forcing GW2 to follow WoW paradigm is definitely too much to ask. I had my share of high-end WoW raiding for years, and I bought GW2 because Anet promised to make it different.

Having to practice and sometimes die to a boss is not something World of Warcraft invented.

Rednik.3809:

Absurdo.8309:

I’m not sure I completely understand your response. I’m positing that if you commit the time, like 5 hours a week for 40 weeks, you’ll learn enough to beat the raid. Yes, you’ll need to get better than you were at week 0, but that’s what the 40 weeks of practice is for.

Yes, you’ll need to get better. Is that too much to ask for a legendary item?

Forcing GW2 to follow WoW paradigm is definitely too much to ask. I had my share of high-end WoW raiding for years, and I bought GW2 because Anet promised to make it different.

Raiding is not required to get the highest stat gear.

Absurdo.8309:

Raiding is not required to get the highest stat gear.

It’s not about stats, its about locking best items behind raids.

Absurdo.8309:

Yes, you’ll need to get better. Is that too much to ask for a legendary item?

It is when the game never asked that for any of the Legendary items before except this one. It’s worst when the only legendary armor in the game is lock behind one specific content. Again nothing like any of the legendary before.

Rednik.3809:

Absurdo.8309:

Raiding is not required to get the highest stat gear.

It’s not about stats, its about locking best items behind raids.

How is it the best when it has the same stats as ascended? Yes, I know about stat changing, but it’s more cost effective to have multiple ascended. In the end, legendaries are prestige items.

Thaddeus.4891:

Absurdo.8309:

Yes, you’ll need to get better. Is that too much to ask for a legendary item?

It is when the game never asked that for any of the Legendary items before except this one. It’s worst when the only legendary armor in the game is lock behind one specific content. Again nothing like any of the legendary before.

Anet changed legendaries with HOT, because players clamored for progression and a sense of accomplishment. Anything you can’t buy off the trading post is tied to specific content. This problem isn’t unique to legendary armor.

For the record, I would be OK with sellable legendary armor if the method to acquire them was repeatable.

Thaddeus.4891:

Absurdo.8309:

Yes, you’ll need to get better. Is that too much to ask for a legendary item?

It is when the game never asked that for any of the Legendary items before except this one. It’s worst when the only legendary armor in the game is lock behind one specific content. Again nothing like any of the legendary before.

There are 3 ways to make something “Legendary”.

1) Put it behind horrible RNG/grind
2) Make is super expensive
3) Put it behind hard content

We’ve tried 1 and 2 multiple times, now it’s time for 3

maddoctor.2738:

There are 3 ways to make something “Legendary”.

1) Put it behind horrible RNG/grind
2) Make is super expensive
3) Put it behind hard content

We’ve tried 1 and 2 multiple times, now it’s time for 3

I agree that #3 is the best option. But that’s not GW2. There is nothing wrong with #2 and it fit a lot more with GW2. From the beginning it’s a casual game with little bit a hard content. I’ll still have my legendary armor, but it just don’t fit with the game.

Thaddeus.4891:

maddoctor.2738:

There are 3 ways to make something “Legendary”.

1) Put it behind horrible RNG/grind
2) Make is super expensive
3) Put it behind hard content

We’ve tried 1 and 2 multiple times, now it’s time for 3

I agree that #3 is the best option. But that’s not GW2. There is nothing wrong with #2 and it fit a lot more with GW2. From the beginning it’s a casual game with little bit a hard content. I’ll still have my legendary armor, but it just don’t fit with the game.

No.

Prestige items should be tied to in-game achievements and challenging combat gameplay, not about who farms best or plays the auction house baron.

By this point I’d even prefer they release legendaries tied to gold medals in adventures or upon successful completion of hard jumping puzzles.

But have these legendaries means something that is not FARM GOLD. kitten that.

Weapons and armors should be earned by doing meaningful content WELL in the game.

The economy should be restricted to convenience items like food, pots, minis, and other frivolous crap not tied to character progression.

Get this virtual market filth out of my gaming.

I recently came back to Guild Wars and have started to raid last week. It has been a struggle to find people willing to take on new players and took a while but fortunately there were people who were willing to accept me (raid teaching guild and PuGs). I can honestly say it’s been the most fun I’ve had in PvE in my entire GW lifetime, even the few hours of failing was way more fun than the majority of other PvE in my opinion of course and the feeling of finally killing a boss is the best buzz I’ve had in the game. I will continue raiding and will get the achievements for the legendary armor.

Do I think it was a good idea, putting legendary armor behind the raids?

Probably not, as it is one of the true end game goals of many players who don’t want to raid but play the game a lot. Crucially this is only the case because the previous legendary weapons were not gated behind difficult content, so asking a whole swathe of people to change their entire aspiration that they had become accustomed to is a tad unfair. If say, from release the legendaries had been locked behind hard content then they would not have been the goals for these players and people wouldn’t have complained.

Do I think having unique rewards from raids, unobtainable any other way is good?

I think it is essential. Before I took my long break from the game, my only interest in PvE was high level fractals (this was before the fractured update, so fractal 50 or 48 or w/e it was). It was never very profitable in terms of liquid gold and the biggest reason why people did them over other things was to get the fractal skins. Most of the skins looked rubbish but do you know why people still wore them? It’s the prestige you get from having something relatively exclusive and difficult to obtain. It’s a sign saying, hey I did this thing that was kinda tough and I did it a lot!

Now you can get them for 20 pristines each! Hooray now everyone has them and any prestige or exclusivity has eroded entirely and so nobody cares about them at all!

The same thing would happen if easy mode raids with access to the same rewards are implemented. There are people who collect skins for prestige (rarity usually) or fashion (sometimes both if lucky), let the people who want their prestige be happy too please!

Golden rule: A rare and prestigious skin is not a rare and prestigious skin if everyone can get it!

Zenith.7301:

No.

Prestige items should be tied to in-game achievements and challenging combat gameplay, not about who farms best or plays the auction house baron.

By this point I’d even prefer they release legendaries tied to gold medals in adventures or upon successful completion of hard jumping puzzles.

But have these legendaries means something that is not FARM GOLD. kitten that.

Weapons and armors should be earned by doing meaningful content WELL in the game.

The economy should be restricted to convenience items like food, pots, minis, and other frivolous crap not tied to character progression.

Get this virtual market filth out of my gaming.

Are you sure that you are picked a right game then? GW2 was made as game without carrot on stick, and that why it became so popular and lasted so long. And yet we constantly getting people who want to take some valuable stuff from everyone else and call it a “meaningful reward”. Seriously people, why you left WoW and came here, asking for same game reward model?

Rednik.3809:

Absurdo.8309:

Raiding is not required to get the highest stat gear.

It’s not about stats, its about locking best items behind raids.

But it’s not an issue when legendary weapons are locked behind HoT then?

Zenith.7301:

Prestige items should be tied to in-game achievements and challenging combat gameplay, not about who farms best or plays the auction house baron.

By this point I’d even prefer they release legendaries tied to gold medals in adventures or upon successful completion of hard jumping puzzles.

But have these legendaries means something that is not FARM GOLD. kitten that.

Since you can buy raid runs and achievements, legendary armor already lost the status you wanted. Why pretend it’s otherwise?

Zenith.7301:

Weapons and armors should be earned by doing meaningful content WELL in the game.

The economy should be restricted to convenience items like food, pots, minis, and other frivolous crap not tied to character progression.

Get this virtual market filth out of my gaming.

You’d really like that empty game you’d get here.

randomguy.1283:

But it’s not an issue when legendary weapons are locked behind HoT then?

There’s already a full set available in core.
But you’re right, it is an additional problem with legendary armor. It’s not only locked behind raids, but behind HoT as well.

Almost the same thing for Ad Infinitum. Anybody can do most of it, it’s just the last collection that need you to reach diamond at least once.

Are you talking the PvP backpack? You never have to reach diamond. The last requirement is that you need to clear 4 divisions within league seasons, but they carry over from season to season. The minimum you need to manage over four seasons is two Ruby and two Sapphire. Pretty much anyone can manage getting to Ruby if they put in a few games per day. My personal progression is that I got Sapphire last season, Ruby this season, which put me in the third achievement tier with one division crossing to go to clear it. That means next season I move to Emerald and start Tier 4, likely get to Ruby again which will put me 2/4 through that tier, and then in the 4th season I just need to get to Sapphire again (or do it the other way around if I somehow get stuck in Sapphire).

Btw, easy money for good PvPers who enjoy exploiting their fellow players, there will be a lot of people panicking in that 4th season who will pay people to carry them to Legendary+. Great gold in it for people without souls.

And this is the problem with your proposed easy mode. Having the perfect build is not beyond any casual player’s capability, because actually making most of the perfect builds is done through general PVE alone. Every casual player can play a Berserker Tempest or a Phalanx Strength Warrior, it’s not beyond their capabilities, nor beyond their limits.

It’s not a bug, it’s a feature. It’s just a feature that’s designed for players who are very different than you are. It’s like you’re looking at a book written in braille and shouting “This book is very hard to read, I don’t get what this is saying!”

And I seriously doubt the complainers are even putting in significant amounts of time. It probably takes hundreds of hours to get a legendary weapon. Are people even trying to raid? Or do they give up after a couple of attempts?

Have you ever considered that maybe some people don’t enjoy raiding in its current form, and that since this is a game, and is supposed to be about having fun, they would rather spend their time doing other activities? The thing about classic Legendaries is that you can do all sorts of things to work towards them. I mean, between the time that I decided to pull the trigger on my Legendary and when I actually got it, it only took me about two weeks in total, and maybe 6-8 hours, tops, in actual direct effort.

I’d already had World Completion for a year, since I liked exploring, I already had plenty of badges from APs, I bought the Precursor on the TP because there was no other reasonable way to get it, I already had most of the T6 mats in my bank and bought the rest, the dungeon tokens took me like 3-4 days of running two paths a day, big whup, the clovers took like 10-15 minutes in front of the forge, it was all pretty simple, so these arguments about “Legendary weapons are this enormous undertaking, the armor should be too” are just nonsense.

Now sure, not everyone likes doing World Completion, and I’m totally sympathetic to that, and supportive of alternate ways of earning the Gift of Exploration, but nobody can say with a straight face that getting World Completion is even remotely comparable in effort to beating all six raid bosses. It might take more time if the raider is really good or being carried, but you can pretty much sleepwalk through the process.

And sure, it also takes a minimum of a few hundred gold, then some combination of either hand-farming dozens of different mats or buying those with more gold, but there are tons of different ways to pursue that objective, so anyone who is playing the game in ANY way should be able to progress towards that, rather than being restricted to just one specific activity that you may not enjoy. I mean, there might be some super efficient way to farm one of the mats, or an efficient way to farm up gold, but if you really don’t like that way, you don’t have to do it, there are slower paths. And again, that don’t involve paying other players to play that bit for you.

You don’t like raiding? Fine. That’s ok. You don’t need to like everything in this game. But stop coming up with excuses why you can’t beat the raid. You can. You just need to put in the effort.

But what if you would not enjoy doing so? Why should you have to?

That’s the entire point, this is a GAME, you should enjoy playing it.

How is it the best when it has the same stats as ascended?

If you don’t believe that it’s the best, then why do you care enough to want to keep it away from other players who want it? If the item is desirable enough that you want to hoard it for yourself like Golum, then it’s desirable enough for other players to be justified in wanting one of their own. Their position is less greedy than yours in this matter.

There are 3 ways to make something “Legendary”.

1) Put it behind horrible RNG/grind
2) Make is super expensive
3) Put it behind hard content

We’ve tried 1 and 2 multiple times, now it’s time for 3

I don’t want items like that to exist in the game. They are too exclusionary. There are “Legendary” items in the game, that does not mean they have to, or should fit the definition of “Legendary” that you believe in.

The same thing would happen if easy mode raids with access to the same rewards are implemented. There are people who collect skins for prestige (rarity usually) or fashion (sometimes both if lucky), let the people who want their prestige be happy too please!

But why are they entitled to their happiness, while people who would be happy just owning those skins, regardless of prestige or exclusivity, are not entitled to be happy? If the choice is between having an item that only a very few will ever earn, and that makes them happy because they have something that other people can’t, or to make the item be something that most people could conceivably earn, and they can be happy because they have it, not just because other people don’t, then I think it’s a no-brainer that you side with the latter option over the former, don’t you?

But it’s not an issue when legendary weapons are locked behind HoT then?

Are you saying that you think people make a fair argument against having to buy HoT to be able to earn Legendaries like Nevermore? I think that’s a completely ridiculous position to take. Yes, you have to buy HoT to earn those weapons, because buying HoT is what pays for those items development. Part of the purchase price is access to these additional items, and additional content. This has nothing to do with raiding, since someone who doesn’t raid has paid ANet exactly as much as someone who does (assuming both bought HoT).

It’s the same argument with those who insist that Elite classes should not be stronger than base ones. You have to pay extra to get them, and also put in a decent amount of additional work to fully unlock them, so why shouldn’t they be more powerful than the ones that come free? Now I expect that future elite specs should be level-balanced with the existing ones, but I think it makes total sense that they would all be a step up from the vanilla builds.

Astralporing.1957:

Since you can buy raid runs and achievements, legendary armor already lost the status you wanted. Why pretend it’s otherwise?

Everyone can farm gold in Guild Wars 2. Just buy the achievements and your kills in the raid and earn the Legendary Armor that way!

(If you’re really going to bring up buying and selling runs in your argument, be warned: That can be done to you too)

(If you’re really going to bring up buying and selling runs in your argument, be warned: That can be done to you too)

I think that was his point.

Ohoni.6057:

I think that was his point.

His point was to discredit any prestige associated with earning the legendary armor (since you cannot just buy it from the trading post) by bringing up the fact that you can do unofficial transactions through deals with other players. (i.e. buying and selling raid spots)

It’s too bad you didn’t catch what my point was though: You can pay people to do this for anything so it’s a meaningless thing to bring up in any discussion. You can pay people to carry you in PvP, achievements, or even pay people to play your account to farm Nevermore. It’s completely and utterly pointless bringing this up.

Astralporing.1957:

Zenith.7301:

Prestige items should be tied to in-game achievements and challenging combat gameplay, not about who farms best or plays the auction house baron.

By this point I’d even prefer they release legendaries tied to gold medals in adventures or upon successful completion of hard jumping puzzles.

But have these legendaries means something that is not FARM GOLD. kitten that.

Since you can buy raid runs and achievements, legendary armor already lost the status you wanted. Why pretend it’s otherwise?

Zenith.7301:

Weapons and armors should be earned by doing meaningful content WELL in the game.

The economy should be restricted to convenience items like food, pots, minis, and other frivolous crap not tied to character progression.

Get this virtual market filth out of my gaming.

You’d really like that empty game you’d get here.

randomguy.1283:

But it’s not an issue when legendary weapons are locked behind HoT then?

There’s already a full set available in core.
But you’re right, it is an additional problem with legendary armor. It’s not only locked behind raids, but behind HoT as well.

Ok, and the core set is locked behind dungeons AND map completion and probably some more stuff as well.

His point was to discredit any prestige associated with earning the legendary armor (since you cannot just buy it from the trading post) by bringing up the fact that you can do unofficial transactions through deals with other players. (i.e. buying and selling raid spots)

It’s too bad you didn’t catch what my point was though: You can pay people to do this for anything so it’s a meaningless thing to bring up in any discussion. You can pay people to carry you in PvP, achievements, or even pay people to play your account to farm Nevermore. It’s completely and utterly pointless bringing this up.

Right, which IS the point, “Prestige” in this game is a complete non-issue, it is not a thing which exists, so anyone claiming “you cannot have access to this thing because mah prestige!” is making a pointless argument.

Ok, and the core set is locked behind dungeons AND map completion and probably some more stuff as well.

Yes, but as I discussed above, both goals are SUPER casual when compared to raid completion, even for players not naturally inclined to pursue those.

Ohoni.6057:

His point was to discredit any prestige associated with earning the legendary armor (since you cannot just buy it from the trading post) by bringing up the fact that you can do unofficial transactions through deals with other players. (i.e. buying and selling raid spots)

It’s too bad you didn’t catch what my point was though: You can pay people to do this for anything so it’s a meaningless thing to bring up in any discussion. You can pay people to carry you in PvP, achievements, or even pay people to play your account to farm Nevermore. It’s completely and utterly pointless bringing this up.

Right, which IS the point, “Prestige” in this game is a complete non-issue, it is not a thing which exists, so anyone claiming “you cannot have access to this thing because mah prestige!” is making a pointless argument.

But we’re all agreed that you can buy the raid from other players and so do not need it endangered by development meddling?

Do that.

Thaddeus.4891:

TexZero.7910:

Ad Infinitum, The Ascension …. and various other unique rewards beg to differ.

There is 2 main differences.

1) There is different legendary back items from different sources. The specific skin are unique to a specific game mode, which is fine, but if you don’t PvP, you can still get an Legendary Back item from Fractal and we know that more will come over time to add more diversity. Ideally, all game mode will have their own Legendary Back Item.

Legendary don’t have that and won’t have that for a long long long time. If you don’t do raids, either because you don’t have the skill, you don’t have the organization, you don’t the time or you just don’t like them, well you just can’t have a legendary armor, even if you are an hardcore PvPers, or able to farm thousands of gold.

2) Legendary weapons need times, but there is not a hard skill cap on it. A casual can get one of them even if it take them 1 year of play to accumulate all the materials. The Ascension is pretty much in the same situation. Anyone can do it with enough time. Almost the same thing for Ad Infinitum. Anybody can do most of it, it’s just the last collection that need you to reach diamond at least once. Which is not that hard if you focus on that in 1 particular season. It’s a little bit more limiting than the other legendary in term of skill, but not by much.

Legendary armor on the other hand is limiting. We can’t deny that a good portion of the community just can’t get pass VG or Gorseval. They tried, and failed. This doesn’t happen with the other legendary. Which is fine if you ask me. In my ideal game, all legendary would be like that. But that’s not how gw2 worked up to this point, so why change that all of the sudden?

Much like the other unique skins in other modes, just because you cannot get it “now” does not mean you wont be able to get it at all. Which is the false analogy being used to try and justify these modes by people who just want the skin without really going in and raiding.

But we’re all agreed that you can buy the raid from other players and so do not need it endangered by development meddling?

Do that.

There are two reasons why this is not a solution.

1. It artificially enriches the sellers. Players should not be able to get rich by exploiting the fact that ANet has set goals outside of most players’ reach. Any activity where players can advertise that they are charging gold to get players past a certain element is a red flag that either ANet has made something unnecessarily frustrating, or too easy to exploit.

2. Buying your way through content takes any fun out of actually playing it. Now you might insist that easy mode can’t be fun, but that’s completely inaccurate for the players for whom it is intended. It is more fun for a player to play through content on easy mode than to have someone carry them through hard mode, and you cannot possibly argue otherwise. So your only argument is that you don’t care whether that player enjoys the experience, and that’s fine, but at least be honest about it.

Ohoni.6057:

2. Buying your way through content takes any fun out of actually playing it.

You mean like how an easy mode takes any fun out of actually playing the current state of raids ?

Sure i agree. So i guess we agree no easy mode needed as it removes the fun factor of raiding and makes it a brain-dead affair.

Ohoni.6057:

And I seriously doubt the complainers are even putting in significant amounts of time. It probably takes hundreds of hours to get a legendary weapon. Are people even trying to raid? Or do they give up after a couple of attempts?

Have you ever considered that maybe some people don’t enjoy raiding in its current form, and that since this is a game, and is supposed to be about having fun, they would rather spend their time doing other activities? The thing about classic Legendaries is that you can do all sorts of things to work towards them. I mean, between the time that I decided to pull the trigger on my Legendary and when I actually got it, it only took me about two weeks in total, and maybe 6-8 hours, tops, in actual direct effort.

I’d already had World Completion for a year, since I liked exploring, I already had plenty of badges from APs, I bought the Precursor on the TP because there was no other reasonable way to get it, I already had most of the T6 mats in my bank and bought the rest, the dungeon tokens took me like 3-4 days of running two paths a day, big whup, the clovers took like 10-15 minutes in front of the forge, it was all pretty simple, so these arguments about “Legendary weapons are this enormous undertaking, the armor should be too” are just nonsense.

Now sure, not everyone likes doing World Completion, and I’m totally sympathetic to that, and supportive of alternate ways of earning the Gift of Exploration, but nobody can say with a straight face that getting World Completion is even remotely comparable in effort to beating all six raid bosses. It might take more time if the raider is really good or being carried, but you can pretty much sleepwalk through the process.

And sure, it also takes a minimum of a few hundred gold, then some combination of either hand-farming dozens of different mats or buying those with more gold, but there are tons of different ways to pursue that objective, so anyone who is playing the game in ANY way should be able to progress towards that, rather than being restricted to just one specific activity that you may not enjoy. I mean, there might be some super efficient way to farm one of the mats, or an efficient way to farm up gold, but if you really don’t like that way, you don’t have to do it, there are slower paths. And again, that don’t involve paying other players to play that bit for you.

Legendaries take more than a few hundred gold. They take thousands of gold. And world completion. And karma. And dungeons. And wvw. It’s a lot of effort. So will getting legendary armor. And a wager if you put forth the hundreds of hours it took you to get a legendary weapon, you could get legendary armor. You happened to back into a legendary weapon because you liked the content tied to it. NOt everyone does. And not everyone has 100s of hours under their belt, as I wager you had.

It’s ok not to like everything in the game. What seems insane to me is that you are demanding an easy mode so you can get a reward. No one really does this for other game modes. No one demanded alternative ways to get the Christmas shoulder. Pvp legendary. Wvw skins. Guild armor. Because in a game with no gear treadmill, we need prestige skins as rewards.

Ohoni.6057:

You don’t like raiding? Fine. That’s ok. You don’t need to like everything in this game. But stop coming up with excuses why you can’t beat the raid. You can. You just need to put in the effort.

But what if you would not enjoy doing so? Why should you have to?

That’s the entire point, this is a GAME, you should enjoy playing it.

Why would you play content you don’t like just to get a skin?

Ohoni.6057:

How is it the best when it has the same stats as ascended?

If you don’t believe that it’s the best, then why do you care enough to want to keep it away from other players who want it? If the item is desirable enough that you want to hoard it for yourself like Golum, then it’s desirable enough for other players to be justified in wanting one of their own. Their position is less greedy than yours in this matter.

I am not opposed to eventually alternative ways to get legendary armor. I see it as a prestige item. I don’t want the current method watered down. Because, in my opinion, the effort required is on par with legendary weapons.

Ohoni.6057:

The same thing would happen if easy mode raids with access to the same rewards are implemented. There are people who collect skins for prestige (rarity usually) or fashion (sometimes both if lucky), let the people who want their prestige be happy too please!

But why are they entitled to their happiness, while people who would be happy just owning those skins, regardless of prestige or exclusivity, are not entitled to be happy? If the choice is between having an item that only a very few will ever earn, and that makes them happy because they have something that other people can’t, or to make the item be something that most people could conceivably earn, and they can be happy because they have it, not just because other people don’t, then I think it’s a no-brainer that you side with the latter option over the former, don’t you?

It’s not a zero sum game. You can have skins that are easy to get. Other that are hard to get. Cool skins that are easy to get. Cool skins that are hard to get. That pleases both groups.

And if all you care about is the “coolness” of a skin, then it’s dishonest to demand legendary armor, at least at this point. We don’t even know what it will look like. So clearly you want it for the prestige. So complete the prestige content.

I’m not sure I really understand this legendary mania. WHY do you really want legendary armor? It can’t be for the skin, we don’t know what it is yet. It can’t be for the stats, it has the same stats as ascended. It can’t be for stat changing, because legendary armor is not cost-effective.

So why? Prestige? Complete the prestige content. Progression? Well, progress in learning how to do raids.

You mean like how an easy mode takes any fun out of actually playing the current state of raids ?

No, nothing like that.

Nothing whatsoever like that.

At all.

That’s the problem. You guys are so wrapped up in how you feel, in the content you enjoy and in how you enjoy it, that you cannot for a second comprehend that there exist people who feel any differently than you do.

So no, there DO exist people who would enjoy the easy mode content I described. You would not have to be one of these people for these people to exist. You do not need to understand these people for these people to exist. But they do exist whether you believe they do or not. And these people would enjoy playing through easy mode content, and would not enjoy buying their way through hard mode content.

Reality does not care whether you believe that or not, it remains reality regardless. You have absolutely no choice in that matter. The only choice you do have, is whether you care whether those players are happy, and attempt to help them be happy on their terms, or you don’t care whether they’re happy, and you attempt to stop them being happy by enforcing your terms.

Legendaries take more than a few hundred gold. They take thousands of gold. And karma. And dungeons. And wvw. It’s a lot of effort.

I covered all that. Legendaries take a minimum of a few hundred gold, if you luck into and/or farm most of it, you’d still need to buy Icy Runestones and a few other things. Now they do take thousands to buy outright, and even if you do luck into or farm the rest of the components it would mean passing up the opportunity to cash those things out for thousands of gold, but the minimum gold cost is somewhere under 250.

And again, as I said, most players already have plenty of karma and WvW badges to buy the necessary components, even if they never farmed karma before or even entered the WvW maps. and as for dungeons, you only need 500 tokens, that is something like ten or less dungeon paths, which for most dungeons is fairly trivial. It would be the equivalent of like 40 Magnetite or less. World completion is the only portion that takes any serious specific commitment, and even still, it’s VERY casual content that any player of the game is capable of, especially if they have even minimal help. Considering that it takes a minimum of nine other players to clear a single raid boss, if you were to take nine other players on a world tour you could sail past even the stickiest Hero Challenges.

And a wager if you put forth the hundreds of hours it took you to get a legendary weapon, you could get legendary armor.

As I said, it only took me a couple of weeks once I decided to do it. Even factoring in the time I spent running world completion, it probably didn’t take me even 50 hours overall, I mean I got it done over several months while also leveling several alts. I haven’t really bothered on any of my other characters, but could probably knock it out in under 20 hours if I really attempted it. Hell, I might just give it a shot on my new Mesmer, it would be handy knowing I have all the WPs unlocked on her.

It’s ok not to like everything in the game. What seems insane to me is that you are demanding an easy mode so you can get a reward.

Keep in mind, I’m not just demanding an easy mode because I want the reward, although that is certainly one factor of it, and I think a perfectly reasonable factor. It is also because I enjoy what I’ve seen of the content, and want to be able to experience that in a way that aligns with my challenge level. I truly believe that I would enjoy a lower risk version of the existing raids, just as you might look at some easy content in the game and consider how you might appreciate it more if they did X or Y to up the challenge factor.

No one demanded alternative ways to get the Christmas shoulder. Pvp legendary. Wvw skins. Guild armor.

Ahem. . .

Why would you play content you don’t like just to get a skin?

Why should I have to?

I mean, let’s assume that I like the skin. I want to have it to put on my character, so that my character will look like she would look wearing that skin. That is the endgoal. No, I would very much prefer to NOT have to do content that I do not enjoy to get that skin, but if the game gives me no alternate method of earning it, then I have only two options, either do the content I do not enjoy, or never have that skin. Neither of those is a positive outcome from my perspective. So you’re right, the better option is to not have to run that content I do not enjoy and still get the skin through some other method, but you guys seem to insist that I shouldn’t have this option available to me. Why not?

I am not opposed to eventually alternative ways to get legendary armor. I see it as a prestige item. I don’t want the current method watered down. Because, in my opinion, the effort required is on par with legendary weapons.

For you, maybe it is, but you do understand that for the vast majority of players, the effort required is WAY more than the effort it would take them to earn a Legendary weapon, especially when you consider that the current elements are only in the Precursor tier of the armor, and that we don’t even know how much gold and mats will go into the eventual creation of the Legendary Armor itself. For all you know, the final steps could include having to do a ton of whatever it is you hate most in the game.

And as for “eventually,” how long is “eventually?” The actual raid versions are still on the distant horizons, I assume you mean some time after that. How long, months? Years? with the current pace of releases, I think “eventually” would likely come far too late to be of any use to anyone. It’s basically saying “never.”

It’s not a zero sum game. You can have skins that are easy to get. Other that are hard to get. Cool skins that are easy to get. Cool skins that are hard to get. That pleases both groups.

No, it doesn’t. Skins are not fungible. You can’t say “well I get exclusive access to this skin, and you can have this other skin instead, everyone’s happy!” Well no, if the skin you have exclusive access to is the one that looks cool to me, which the skin I can access does not, then you haven’t offered me anything I would value. It’d be like if I said to you “I will keep this rock to myself, which is made of gold, but you can have that rock if you like, which is made of quartz, and now we both have rocks and everything is fair!”

“Cool” is entirely subjective.

And if all you care about is the “coolness” of a skin, then it’s dishonest to demand legendary armor, at least at this point. We don’t even know what it will look like. So clearly you want it for the prestige. So complete the prestige content.

I am not certain that I will want the skins themselves, that’s fair enough. I might not. I can pretty much guarantee that I won’t be wearing all Legendary pieces even given the option, but I think it’s likely that I would find at least a few pieces that look very cool to me. I mean, the Lumi set came up earlier, I picked up the entire set, but not one of my characters is wearing full Lumi. Some only have 1-2 pieces, some have all but 1-2 pieces in Lumi, but they are all a mix of the pieces I thought worked best with the rest of their look.

So yes. It might come down to it that they release the Legendary set and I’ll think they look ugly as sin, and want no part of the skins. But I think that given the care they’d want to put into it, this would be a fairly unlikely outcome, so I think it’s better to be laying the groundwork for a solution. I like to plan ahead, and prefer to discuss things that the devs may be working on, rather than to wait until they are 100% finished, months or years down the road, which then means that any solutions to those problems would take additional months or years after that.

And even assuming that it goes that way, I’d still value having the armor itself as a way to shift my stats more easily, so people would stop complaining about my 1600 Toughness Tempest. And even if we do take the armor out of the picture entirely, I still want the easy mode raids just to be able to play in them.

And again, I do not care about the “prestige,” I reject the entire concept involved. Think about it, I’m suggesting that they add an easier mode, one in which not only I would be able to participate, but everyone would. If I were able to earn Legendary armor that way, and everyone else could as well, then how could I possibly claim to have “prestige” from wearing the resultant armor?

Ohoni.6057:

You mean like how an easy mode takes any fun out of actually playing the current state of raids ?

No, nothing like that.

Nothing whatsoever like that.

At all.

That’s the problem. You guys are so wrapped up in how you feel, in the content you enjoy and in how you enjoy it, that you cannot for a second comprehend that there exist people who feel any differently than you do.

So no, there DO exist people who would enjoy the easy mode content I described. You would not have to be one of these people for these people to exist. You do not need to understand these people for these people to exist. But they do exist whether you believe they do or not. And these people would enjoy playing through easy mode content, and would not enjoy buying their way through hard mode content.

Reality does not care whether you believe that or not, it remains reality regardless. You have absolutely no choice in that matter. The only choice you do have, is whether you care whether those players are happy, and attempt to help them be happy on their terms, or you don’t care whether they’re happy, and you attempt to stop them being happy by enforcing your terms.

You mean people who enjoy content that was designed to be fun and challenging are okay with it being fun and challenging and don’t want that changed shocker ?

It’s almost like if you remove the challenging aspects it ceases to be fun….who woulda guessed.

There’s people out there who enjoy sticking their fingers in light sockets, doesn’t mean the need to have a new house built for them to shock themselves in either.

See here’s the thing, you think we don’t care. You’re wrong here. We care about the integrity and conceptual design that raids are meant to fulfill. Pandering to people who don’t care or in your case could care less about that is the wrong way to go.

Whether or not i care if people are happy is utterly irrelevant, because if you cannot tell this is a gaming forum….you’re here, you’re not happy. I’m here and i’m content with raids. Guess what happens if/when you get your way. Someone somewhere will be “unhappy”. You cannot please everyone, it’s a simple fact of life.

Whether you choose to accept this or not it’s the reality you’re selectively ignoring.

You mean people who enjoy content that was designed to be fun and challenging are okay with it being fun and challenging and don’t want that changed shocker ?

Yes, which is why nobody is trying to change their content.

It’s almost like if you remove the challenging aspects it ceases to be fun….who woulda guessed.

Nope. It might remove the fun for some people, but everyone’s tastes are different and they never have to engage the version they do not find fun. But it would make it more fun for a lot of other people, and those people would now have the option of playing the version that they find to be fun. Everyone wins, nobody loses.

There’s people out there who enjoy sticking their fingers in light sockets, doesn’t mean the need to have a new house built for them to shock themselves in either.

You’re talking about a very small group who enjoy self-harm? That is the raid community in this analogy, and you’re right, they don’t need houses built for them to shock themselves in.

We care about the integrity and conceptual design that raids are meant to fulfill.

Well, there’s not need for that. The raids don’t have feelings. Their feelings are not hurt if there is also an easy mode raid. Actual human beings are made less happy if they don’t have easy mode raids to play in, their feelings count for more than the inanimate object’s.

Guess what happens if/when you get your way. Someone somewhere will be “unhappy”.

Yes, but people who are unhappy only because other people are happy should not get a vote. Those are bad people.

Ohoni.6057:

Yes, which is why nobody is trying to change their content.

Nope. It might remove the fun for some people, but everyone’s tastes are different and they never have to engage the version they do not find fun. But it would make it more fun for a lot of other people, and those people would now have the option of playing the version that they find to be fun. Everyone wins, nobody loses.

You’re talking about a very small group who enjoy self-harm? That is the raid community in this analogy, and you’re right, they don’t need houses built for them to shock themselves in.

Well, there’s not need for that. The raids don’t have feelings. Their feelings are not hurt if there is also an easy mode raid. Actual human beings are made less happy if they don’t have easy mode raids to play in, their feelings count for more than the inanimate object’s.

Yes, but people who are unhappy only because other people are happy should not get a vote. Those are bad people.

Again, you are trying to change it. In doing so you are also changing what the core essence of what raids are, thus doing harm to not only the mode but the community. Sorry you’re just willfully ignoring this yet again.

The subset of people being used in that analogy was not the raiders, congrats for ignoring the point yet again. You want content directed for you, Player J wants content even easier than what you want. Sorry the line has to be drawn somewhere, and it should be at the origin of what the mode was built around being. A challenging piece of content, not some watered down garbage. You want that, silverwaste exist.

Actually human beings are never happy no matter what you give them. You could be given an easy mode tomorrow but you’ll be back here demanding more and more and …..more.

Spoken like someone who has no passion. The raids contains the feelings of every person who worked on them, and every player whose participated in them.

I guess we agree, you’re vote should be irrelevant then, because you are only unhappy because you cannot experience happiness due to others putting in more to be happy than you are willing to do.

Can we conclude the thread now that you’ve prove that your only reason is personal bias ?

Again, you are trying to change it. In doing so you are also changing what the core essence of what raids are, thus doing harm to not only the mode but the community. Sorry you’re just willfully ignoring this yet again.

Nope. Not trying to change raids one bit.

Not even a little.

You like how raids are right this very minute, then good news!

Even if I get my way 100% on this, you’ll be able to log in after that patch and continue to raid exactly like you’re raiding tonight!

Nothing about that will be changing whatsoever.

There will just be another version.

and that version would be different, you might not like that version, but that’s ok. because that version is not intended for you, it is for people who are different than you are, who like different things. And they can play it, and you never have to, and everyone can be happy.

I guess we agree, you’re vote should be irrelevant then, because you are only unhappy because you cannot experience happiness due to others putting in more to be happy than you are willing to do.

You’re not making sense. I was talking about those players who couldn’t be happy if an easy mode exists, even if they never had to actually play in it, about those players who would be upset if more people could participate in raiding, or if more people had Legendary armor, because they’d feel less like the special snowflakes they know they are. What I’ve been proposing is to have BOTH hard raids for people who like hard raids, AND easy raids for people who prefer easy raids, so that BOTH groups can be happy doing the thing THEY enjoy doing, and the only people who could possibly be upset would be those who can only have fun when they know that someone else is having less fun.

Raids aren’t a bad idea. The bad idea is:
1. Only releasing new raid content since HoT came out. Raids aren’t overly popular with the vast majority of players
2. Gating legendary armor behind those raids. I thought ANET learned their lesson with ascended gear and fractals. Locking a new tier of armor behind one game mode is bad. Locking a unique skin is smart and what they should have done instead.

style.6173:

2. Gating legendary armor behind those raids. I thought ANET learned their lesson with ascended gear and fractals. Locking a new tier of armor behind one game mode is bad. Locking a unique skin is smart and what they should have done instead.

I don’t think they ever locked gear behind fractals though, you could always get Laurels and spend them on the rings?

If anything, the ‘worst’ they did was gating the necks behind Laurels and Laurels only.

I don’t think they ever locked gear behind fractals though, you could always get Laurels and spend them on the rings?

If anything, the ‘worst’ they did was gating the necks behind Laurels and Laurels only.

I forget, didn’t laurels come after they were in Fractals though? Like weren’t there several months in which you could only get them through Fractals and there was no official plan to do otherwise? I might be miss-remembering that. It really wasn’t a priority for me at the time since the game was still young and I had plenty of other stuff to do.

Ohoni.6057:

And this is the problem with your proposed easy mode. Having the perfect build is not beyond any casual player’s capability, because actually making most of the perfect builds is done through general PVE alone. Every casual player can play a Berserker Tempest or a Phalanx Strength Warrior, it’s not beyond their capabilities, nor beyond their limits.

It’s not a bug, it’s a feature. It’s just a feature that’s designed for players who are very different than you are. It’s like you’re looking at a book written in braille and shouting “This book is very hard to read, I don’t get what this is saying!”

No. You are using that completely worthless argument again. Nobody is preventing a casual player from using the BEST build in the world. Go to metabattle and make your character. I don’t see any kind of problem, any “easy mode” should be balanced around full working builds, clearly defined roles, and at the very least ascended weapons and trinkets, full min-maxed. Reduce the skill needed, there is nothing wrong with builds.

I don’t want items like that to exist in the game. They are too exclusionary. There are “Legendary” items in the game, that does not mean they have to, or should fit the definition of “Legendary” that you believe in.

We had the other type of useless, worthless legendary. We know need something that is “more” Legendary. Your “easy mode” Legendary needs to have LOADS of Grind and be super expensive to compensate for the lack of “difficulty”. It only makes sense.

Nobody is preventing a casual player from using the BEST build in the world. Go to metabattle and make your character. I don’t see any kind of problem,

It’s not about what a player is “capable” of, it’s about what a player wants to do. Most players don’t want to have to keep multiple sets of armor around to have different meta builds for various content, they just want to make one general purpose build that works wherever, ideally sourced with whatever bits and pieces they come across through gameplay, rather than bought off the market.

The hard mode requires precise meta-builds, and that’s fine, for hard mode, but it goes against the spirit of easy mode, which is “come as you are and it’ll probably work out fine.” Running a meta-build in easy mode should give you an advantage, but it shouldn’t really be necessary for doing a minimalist run.

Again, the things you insist on are perfectly reasonable for hard mode, no question, but they don’t make sense for easy mode.

We had the other type of useless, worthless legendary. We know need something that is “more” Legendary.

No, we don’t. Nobody needs the sort of “legendary” you want. That’s exclusionary and by nature a system that will only make a minority of players happy, because if the majority of people were happy with it, it wouldn’t have done what you wanted.

As a high end goal, Legendary items should involve a solid amount of work, because that means it would keep a player meaningfully occupied for a long amount of time, but the goal should never be to deliberately keep the number of people who have it small, or to make it something that only “a certain class of player” can reach. That’s just poor design.

There should always be multiple paths, with different distances relative to their challenge. The highly skilled will have access to shorter but highly challenging paths, and get theirs well before anyone else. The medium skilled should have access to longer, less difficult paths. Even very low skill players should have some option available, if a much longer path. The solution should never only be “become more skilled than you are,” because not everyone has that option.

Ohoni.6057:

Again, you are trying to change it. In doing so you are also changing what the core essence of what raids are, thus doing harm to not only the mode but the community. Sorry you’re just willfully ignoring this yet again.

Nope. Not trying to change raids one bit.

Not even a little.

You like how raids are right this very minute, then good news!

Even if I get my way 100% on this, you’ll be able to log in after that patch and continue to raid exactly like you’re raiding tonight!

Nothing about that will be changing whatsoever.

There will just be another version.

and that version would be different, you might not like that version, but that’s ok. because that version is not intended for you, it is for people who are different than you are, who like different things. And they can play it, and you never have to, and everyone can be happy.

I guess we agree, you’re vote should be irrelevant then, because you are only unhappy because you cannot experience happiness due to others putting in more to be happy than you are willing to do.

You’re not making sense. I was talking about those players who couldn’t be happy if an easy mode exists, even if they never had to actually play in it, about those players who would be upset if more people could participate in raiding, or if more people had Legendary armor, because they’d feel less like the special snowflakes they know they are. What I’ve been proposing is to have BOTH hard raids for people who like hard raids, AND easy raids for people who prefer easy raids, so that BOTH groups can be happy doing the thing THEY enjoy doing, and the only people who could possibly be upset would be those who can only have fun when they know that someone else is having less fun.

You never cease to entertain me. Why do you keep missing the point ?

What do you do when someone else can’t do “easy” mode ?

They will be unhappy, as you are now because you refuse to raid. Adding content to appease the vocal minority who the content isn’t designed for isn’t going to solve the problem. It’s just going to exacerbate it.

Ohoni.6057:

It’s not about what a player is “capable” of, it’s about what a player wants to do.

Yet, that’s completely irrelevant. The fact is they can get any build they want, put some effort in it and get your build. Simple as that. What players want to do is irrelevant. Someone might want to farm moas in Queensdale, should they get their legendary? Be reasonable for once.

Again, the things you insist on are perfectly reasonable for hard mode, no question, but they don’t make sense for easy mode.

No, you are wrong, as you always are. Either easy mode requires same builds as the hard mode, OR it doesn’t award Legendary armor. Pick one.

You always said that you want easy mode to be a way for casual players to get their Legendary Armor now I understand that’s not your objective. Your objective is to skip proper Exotic and Ascended completely. You want these casual players to completely forget the previous tiers of gear even exist and move directly to Legendary, because with your proposal, easy mode Raids will make getting Legendary Armor much much easier than getting Ascended Armor and in many cases, even easier than Exotic.

And you find no problem with this somehow. You think that won’t affect the entire game? That won’t affect the entire playerbase? You must be joking.

We had the other type of useless, worthless legendary. We know need something that is “more” Legendary.

That’s exclusionary and by nature a system that will only make a minority of players happy, because if the majority of people were happy with it, it wouldn’t have done what you wanted.

And you are wrong, once more. Having an excessive grind and making legendary too expensive is also exclusionary. As you said above “it’s what players want” What if I don’t want to grind endlessly to get the items? Oh it’s fine because casuals can get them at their own pace? That’s garbage. Grind and price are even more exclusionary than difficulty.

As a high end goal, Legendary items should involve a solid amount of work, because that means it would keep a player meaningfully occupied for a long amount of time, but the goal should never be to deliberately keep the number of people who have it small, or to make it something that only “a certain class of player” can reach. That’s just poor design.

Your proposed easy mode, does not involve any kind of work. It’s a only a joke not to be taken seriously. It’s funny how you propose a JOKE mode, then you say legendary items should involve a solid amount of work… pick one.

TexZero.7910:

What do you do when someone else can’t do “easy” mode ?

There is no such way. What Ohoni wants is clear, a “joke” mode, not an easy mode. Something that anyone can get no matter their build or skill level. Just get another 9 random and do it, in other words, low level open world level of difficulty doable by anyone. That’s why I call this specific easy mode a joke mode, and treat it like a joke.

And then in the grand master plan, it includes getting Legendary Armor doing that joke. It’s pathetic really.

It’s just pathetic how much time Ohoni spends on these forums trying to get easy mode raids yet if he spent even half that time instead in the game trying to git gud he’d have cleared both wings already.

maddoctor.2738:

We had the other type of useless, worthless legendary. We know need something that is “more” Legendary. Your “easy mode” Legendary needs to have LOADS of Grind and be super expensive to compensate for the lack of “difficulty”. It only makes sense.

So you are trying to tell that one kind of grind is somehow better and more “worthy” than other kind of grind? Because GW2 raids arent that hard, you know, they are not even close to old WoW 25 HM encounters. It’s stupidly big gap in learning curve and absolute lack of transition making them feel hard. Plus pretty bad interface, even vanilla wow had better one.

What do you do when someone else can’t do “easy” mode ?

Assuming easy mode is balanced at the right level, nothing, the same as if someone can’t do low level Fractals. There is a reasonable balance point to this game, that is vaguely consistent across most content. If the easy mode is consistent with this balance point, then most players would be capable of overcoming it, because otherwise what are those players even doing in a game where they can’t complete most of the content? Besides, with ten other players involved, and the content being balanced around them all being fairly average, if a few of them are well below that average the group would still be likely to be able to pull out a victory without needing to do anything exceptional.

Adding content to appease the vocal minority who the content isn’t designed for isn’t going to solve the problem. It’s just going to exacerbate it.

But you ARE the vocal minority in this story, the ones that enjoy hard mode raiding and talk constantly about how great it is.

What players want to do is irrelevant.

Lol, no. This is a game. What players want to do is the only thing that is relevant.

Someone might want to farm moas in Queensdale, should they get their legendary?

Someone might, but most don’t think that’s a good idea, so it’s not a good idea. If most players did want to farm moas in Queensdale, then this would and should be Moa Farming Online.

Either easy mode requires same builds as the hard mode, OR it doesn’t award Legendary armor. Pick one.

Why? Because you say so? What does it matter what you say? This content is not for you, you already have the hard mode that is for you.

Your objective is to skip proper Exotic and Ascended completely.

You mean progression gear grind? Skipping progression gear grind, what a novel concept. I wonder when an MMO will come along that will promise no progression gear-grind. . .

because with your proposal, easy mode Raids will make getting Legendary Armor much much easier than getting Ascended Armor and in many cases, even easier than Exotic.

Honestly I kinda doubt it. I mean, we don’t even know that the final requirements will be for the armor, all we know is the requirements for the Precursors. I have a feeling that the final versions will include requirements like hundreds of gold in total, various level 500 craftings, stuff that will make it more expensive than a comparable set of Ascended, or at least within the same ballpark plus the months spent raiding. I think it’ll balance out to require equivalent effort, even in Easy mode.

And you are wrong, once more. Having an excessive grind and making legendary too expensive is also exclusionary.

Not really. It’s a path that might take time, but which anyone can pursue in any number of different ways. It’s a completely different story than something that requires a particularly high skill cap to even get involved, AND requires playing one very specific type of content only for dozens and dozens of hours.

Your proposed easy mode, does not involve any kind of work.

Of course it involves work, tons of it. It requires running the raid for a couple hours a week for likely dozens of weeks in all, which is considerably more work than World Completion and the Dungeon aspect of Legendary weapons combined, and would be no easier than completing either of those activities. It’s just work that more players are capable of than the existing raids, which bothers you, for reasons.

Ohoni.6057:

What players want to do is irrelevant.

Lol, no. This is a game. What players want to do is the only thing that is relevant.

No it’s not. What specific players want is irrelevant, there is a reason in every single game in existence there are types of content, that award different types of rewards. That some players want the cookies, doing different content, is irrelevant.

Either easy mode requires same builds as the hard mode, OR it doesn’t award Legendary armor. Pick one.

Why? Because you say so? What does it matter what you say? This content is not for you, you already have the hard mode that is for you.

Because it’s common sense. So pick one.

Your objective is to skip proper Exotic and Ascended completely.

You mean progression gear grind? Skipping progression gear grind, what a novel concept. I wonder when an MMO will come along that will promise no progression gear-grind. . .

So you DO indeed want to skip Exotic and Ascended, and make Legendary Armor so easy to obtain for every player of the game. Should stop responding here but I’ll finish this one.

Not really. It’s a path that might take time, but which anyone can pursue in any number of different ways. It’s a completely different story than something that requires a particularly high skill cap to even get involved, AND requires playing one very specific type of content only for dozens and dozens of hours.

Not anyone can pursue it, get over yourself. You seem to have a weird idea that everything revolves around you, stop talking for everyone for once. It’s really funny you first talk about what players want and then completely forget about it. Fact is, getting good is easier than the endless grind for a lot of players. And getting rewarded by beating content you couldn’t before, is a reward of it’s own, compared to endlessly grinding for things.

I mean, we don’t even know that the final requirements will be for the armor, all we know is the requirements for the Precursors.

If your joke mode “passes” or is even considered, then tier 2 and tier 3 of the legendary armor will be an endless grind. If there is no joke mode involved, then maybe, just maybe, legendary armor won’t have as much grind involved and instead require more Raids.

Of course it involves work, tons of it.

No it doesn’t. You want the Legendary Armor for free and everyone can see it. You want to skip exotic and ascended tiers, are those so hard for you that you want this joke mode?

Sarrs.4831:

style.6173:

2. Gating legendary armor behind those raids. I thought ANET learned their lesson with ascended gear and fractals. Locking a new tier of armor behind one game mode is bad. Locking a unique skin is smart and what they should have done instead.

I don’t think they ever locked gear behind fractals though, you could always get Laurels and spend them on the rings?

If anything, the ‘worst’ they did was gating the necks behind Laurels and Laurels only.

For the record, Asc. rings (and iirc the forst back item) were put in game ~ the middle of Nov., 2012 with the update that introduced fractals. They were gettable only in FotM at that time.

There was a lot of backlash, and this resulted in Anet promising that not all Asc. pieces would be FotM exclusive, i.e. , that different pieces would come via different types of content. They also stated that they would put in multiple ways to get Asc. pieces. The laurel system was added in late January, 2013. So, Asc. only via FotM lasted a little more than two months.

The worst for me is that the alternative means to get armor/weapons is via drops, and the drop rates are the worst I’ve seen in any MMO. That’s too bad for those of us who look at crafting in GW2 and say, as Weird Al might have said:

I’d rather have my blood sucked out by leeches
Shove an icepick under a toenail or two
I’d rather clean all the bathroom in Grand Central Station with my tongue
Than craft anything in Guild Wars 2.

Ohoni.6057:

Assuming easy mode is balanced at the right level, nothing, the same as if someone can’t do low level Fractals. There is a reasonable balance point to this game, that is vaguely consistent across most content. If the easy mode is consistent with this balance point, then most players would be capable of overcoming it, because otherwise what are those players even doing in a game where they can’t complete most of the content? Besides, with ten other players involved, and the content being balanced around them all being fairly average, if a few of them are well below that average the group would still be likely to be able to pull out a victory without needing to do anything exceptional.

But you ARE the vocal minority in this story, the ones that enjoy hard mode raiding and talk constantly about how great it is.

You sure like to assume a lot. Like for instance that it would be easy to do, take only so much time, bring in more players. Lots of assuming going on here, nothing to prove it other than hot air.

Yet again, though you seemingly don’t get it. Raids by their very nature and design are not meant to be “most content”. It is meant to be challenging content that pushes you as a player. Easy modes don’t and never will accomplish the goals set forth by this design.

You also assume that 10 average players cannot complete the raid, I submit that you that 10 average players can complete the raid and that you are probably not anywhere near as good a player as you believe yourself to be. This is pretty much evidenced by your unwillingness to learn, and adapt as well as your fear of failure. That you are not the person this content is designed for and thus are not the person whom anyone designing should listen too because your reasons are hyper-inflated and biased beyond belief.

Now then, you’ve failed to answer what happens in your model when even the average joe group cannot complete the mode. How much easier does it have to be, how many more “easy” modes do you need for the problem to be solved and how much more dev time do you really want to allocate to placating the minority whom the content isn’t even designed for ?

TexZero.7910:

Ohoni.6057:

Assuming easy mode is balanced at the right level, nothing, the same as if someone can’t do low level Fractals. There is a reasonable balance point to this game, that is vaguely consistent across most content. If the easy mode is consistent with this balance point, then most players would be capable of overcoming it, because otherwise what are those players even doing in a game where they can’t complete most of the content? Besides, with ten other players involved, and the content being balanced around them all being fairly average, if a few of them are well below that average the group would still be likely to be able to pull out a victory without needing to do anything exceptional.

But you ARE the vocal minority in this story, the ones that enjoy hard mode raiding and talk constantly about how great it is.

You sure like to assume a lot. Like for instance that it would be easy to do, take only so much time, bring in more players. Lots of assuming going on here, nothing to prove it other than hot air.

Yet again, though you seemingly don’t get it. Raids by their very nature and design are not meant to be “most content”. It is meant to be challenging content that pushes you as a player. Easy modes don’t and never will accomplish the goals set forth by this design.

You also assume that 10 average players cannot complete the raid, I submit that you that 10 average players can complete the raid and that you are probably not anywhere near as good a player as you believe yourself to be. This is pretty much evidenced by your unwillingness to learn, and adapt as well as your fear of failure. That you are not the person this content is designed for and thus are not the person whom anyone designing should listen too because your reasons are hyper-inflated and biased beyond belief.

Now then, you’ve failed to answer what happens in your model when even the average joe group cannot complete the mode. How much easier does it have to be, how many more “easy” modes do you need for the problem to be solved and how much more dev time do you really want to allocate to placating the minority whom the content isn’t even designed for ?

The level he needs for easy mode is the level he can succeed, that’s all.

TexZero.7910:

Ohoni.6057:

2. Buying your way through content takes any fun out of actually playing it.

You mean like how an easy mode takes any fun out of actually playing the current state of raids ?

Ah, but there’s no fun in actually playing the current state of raids. Not for me. That’s what you don’t get.

Absurdo.8309:

Why would you play content you don’t like just to get a skin?

Exactly. I shouldn’t have to.

Absurdo.8309:

I am not opposed to eventually alternative ways to get legendary armor. I see it as a prestige item. I don’t want the current method watered down. Because, in my opinion, the effort required is on par with legendary weapons.

And in my oinion it is definitely not on par with it.

Absurdo.8309:

I’m not sure I really understand this legendary mania. WHY do you really want legendary armor?

Because it is there.

Absurdo.8309:

It can’t be for the skin, we don’t know what it is yet. It can’t be for the stats, it has the same stats as ascended. It can’t be for stat changing, because legendary armor is not cost-effective.

All of the above, and more.

TexZero.7910:

You mean people who enjoy content that was designed to be fun and challenging are okay with it being fun and challenging and don’t want that changed shocker ?

So? It’s not like anyone asks to change that content… yet.

TexZero.7910:

It’s almost like if you remove the challenging aspects it ceases to be fun….who woulda guessed.

For you. But you’d still have your challenging raid, so i don’t see where the problem is.

TexZero.7910:

There’s people out there who enjoy sticking their fingers in light sockets, doesn’t mean the need to have a new house built for them to shock themselves in either.

From my point of view you’ve just described the Raiders.

TexZero.7910:

See here’s the thing, you think we don’t care. You’re wrong here. We care about the integrity and conceptual design that raids are meant to fulfill.

Good. I have no problem with that. I have a problem that you somehow think that this conceptual design should be enforced on other people too.

Sarrs.4831:

style.6173:

2. Gating legendary armor behind those raids. I thought ANET learned their lesson with ascended gear and fractals. Locking a new tier of armor behind one game mode is bad. Locking a unique skin is smart and what they should have done instead.

I don’t think they ever locked gear behind fractals though, you could always get Laurels and spend them on the rings?

Nope, that got introduced only after people strongly protested about the content gating. Originally rings could only be obtained as drops from fractal daily end chest (there were no pristines or ascended fractal vendor), and only on higher levels.

maddoctor.2738:

No it doesn’t. You want the Legendary Armor for free and everyone can see it. You want to skip exotic and ascended tiers, are those so hard for you that you want this joke mode?

You’d do better to argue with what Ohoni is saying. Not with what you claim he’s saying.
Sure, the second is easier, because it lets you easily “win” with nonexisting opponent, but that doesn’t actually accomplish anything.

TexZero.7910:

Yet again, though you seemingly don’t get it. Raids by their very nature and design are not meant to be “most content”. It is meant to be challenging content that pushes you as a player. Easy modes don’t and never will accomplish the goals set forth by this design.

Perhaps because they are aimed at different people? I mean, if you have problem with the name, let’s call them 10-man dungeons (leaving the rest as it is)

TexZero.7910:

Now then, you’ve failed to answer what happens in your model when even the average joe group cannot complete the mode.

He didn’t.because such a question is not applicable. In his model, the Average Joe group can complete the mode.

Astralporing.1957:

maddoctor.2738:

No it doesn’t. You want the Legendary Armor for free and everyone can see it. You want to skip exotic and ascended tiers, are those so hard for you that you want this joke mode?

You’d do better to argue with what Ohoni is saying. Not with what you claim he’s saying.
Sure, the second is easier, because it lets you easily “win” with nonexisting opponent, but that doesn’t actually accomplish anything.

Ohoni wants a completely random group of non-min maxed players who skipped proper Exotic, AND Ascended gear tiers, with no strictly defined roles and builds, to be able to finish the Raid. Which means he wants Legendary Armor to be easier to acquire than Ascended Armor which in turn means he wants the Legendary Armor for free, no effort required.
I guess YOU are the one who needs to read what Ohoni is saying and actually provide something constructive for once.

maddoctor.2738:

Ohoni wants a completely random group of non-min maxed players who skipped proper Exotic, AND Ascended gear tiers, with no strictly defined roles and builds, to be able to finish the Raid. Which means he wants Legendary Armor to be easier to acquire than Ascended Armor which in turn means he wants the Legendary Armor for free, no effort required.

You might want to work on your logic, because your second sentence is not implied in any way by the first one. You are just making a strawman here. A strawman on a slippery slope, at that.

Astralporing.1957:

maddoctor.2738:

Ohoni wants a completely random group of non-min maxed players who skipped proper Exotic, AND Ascended gear tiers, with no strictly defined roles and builds, to be able to finish the Raid. Which means he wants Legendary Armor to be easier to acquire than Ascended Armor which in turn means he wants the Legendary Armor for free, no effort required.

You might want to work on your logic, because your second sentence is not implied in any way by the first one. You are just making a strawman here. A strawman on a slippery slope, at that.

The second sentence is just fine thank you and take your strawmans out of this. If you don’t have anything constructive to say just don’t post.