There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
Do you think Raids in GW2 were a bad idea?
Legendary armor is going to require a WHOLE lot more than simply raiding that most of these “casuals” will never obtain. It’s all speculation that is completely pointless to argue about.
This is not true, as most things previously involving a legendary, were not in fact hard, but more a test of perseverance and deftness of direction.
Look at the Original Legendary Weapons, nothing required to make them was actually hard, collect 250 of every resources, while expensive or time consuming, was not in fact hard, and then what, some dungeon mid level tokens, maybe run some low level fractals to complete a collection. All it very doable by someone who could only invest 1 hour a day, as long as they were willing to keep working at it, a bit at a time, and they would get it.
They did not need to be talented, or even skilled players, just persistent. Thus truly, anyone could get a legendary, might take one person 2 months, might take someone else 3 years, while others are still only half way there after playing since day one, but they all can get it, with just keeping at it.
The new direction of a lot of the HOT stuff changes all that, a lot of things are suddenly hidden behind being skilled, talented, or having a much larger time bracket to invest, and IMHO, that is not for the better.
I am all for giving Raiders some special raid loot, something that say “LOOK I’M RAIDER!” I love that idea about GW2, that they have done that kind of thing, giving special skins that were unique to a sub-section of the game, like Dungeon Armor/Weapons, Fractal Weapons, Gold Fractal Weapons, etc.
But notice… the Ascended Items are not exclusive to Fractals. You can get the Rings, Trinkets, and Amulets with Laurels and Guild Coms, so you never have to set foot in a fractal to get them. While you can get them from fractal runs, you don’t need to do a fractal to get the best gear.
Upgrading gear, like Infusing it, was pointless outside a fractal, so it made sense that get that Infusion, you needed to do a fractal. I mean really, Agony is a fractal thing.
And that inclusive, allowing players to simply slowly persistently and in some cases lacking any a skill or talent at being good at an MMO, but still not being left out, is exactly the trend they are going against with this new direction with the Legendary Armor system.
It’s easy to see why some who have been included for years, are suddenly not happy about this change of direction.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
But… by creating a “LFR” style raid difficulty eliminates the mechanics. You get no mechanics. By not perfecting mechanics you are not experiencing them. The price of success comes at the price of many failures.
Nope. Mechanics are mechanics, whether they wipe the raid or not. You can learn as much by failing a mechanic and then continuing forward as you can by failing the mechanic and stopping dead. In fact, you can learn significantly more, because you’re under less stress, which helps learning and attention to detail, you aren’t forced to repeat portions that you already understand, and you have a generally more positive outlook.
I bet you this, take two equally skilled and motivated players, put one on a standard raid with the goal of getting it perfect, and put the other on an “easy mode” raid with the goal of getting it perfect, and the latter player would have a perfect playthrough before the former would (“perfect” being defined as maintaining his rotations, hitting special targets that needed hitting, and not getting hit by anything more than unavoidable chip damage).
In regards to raiding, it should be obvious to you that time spent raiding is more valuable than time spent complaining.
It really depends on the goal though. If the goal is to complete a hard mode raid, then you’d be right. If the goal is to gain access to the sort of lower-risk raiding experience I actually want, then playing the current raids would actually be counter-productive.
Then perhaps you are not interested in raiding or MMO’s in general.
Again, I have ZERO interest in raiding in its current form, and have been perfectly honest about this repeatedly (and yet people still seem shocked each time). What I am interested in is content with the same mechanics as the raids, but with much lower risk of actual failure. The type of content I want is different than the kind of content you want, but why can’t we have both?
I’m not saying “it’s ok for this story to not be for you.” I’m saying this story is a completely independent arc from the main story.
. . . and therefore I shouldn’t care that I can’t participate in it. I’m sorry, but no.
What you are asking for is a mode that does not require mechanics, so you can enjoy the mechanics of the mode. I mean come on lolol
Let me give you a simple example, Golem MKII world boss. Has three mechanics. One is that it creates a wide ring of ranged attack, not terribly dangerous. Another is that it hits the ground three times, tricky to avoid all three in melee, but they knock you down if they hit, third is the killed, a pattern of death fields that will almost inevitably kill you if you get caught in them for more than a second.
I love this boss. Yes, you don’t have to master the mechanics of it, there are places you can range it down in relative safety, and if you do personally die, you can rez and run back in under 30 seconds. Losing is highly unlikely, I doubt I’ve ever seen it happen. But you can play better than “didn’t fail it.” You can choose to melee him, which increases the risk of falling significantly, You can attempt to dodge every single incoming attack, even if this isn’t absolutely required by the challenge. It is fun to try to avoid all of these attacks, even though failing to do so doesn’t mean wiping and having to start all over again. You may not enjoy that without the risk of utter failure, but you don’t have to, it’s not for you.
I think you assume too much and by the amount of replies you get to posts I think you are turning a blind eye to what is actually reality and what is in your head.
Do you mean from the people who are “insignificant forum posters?” Do they only matter when they agree with you?
You fail to realize that you are essentially “neutering” the value of the rewards gained by raids. It’s really simple. How legendary is a legendary that everyone has?
Exactly as legendary as current legandaries are. The value is in how cool they look, not in their rarity.
Then, I hate to break it to you big guy, but you have no interest in raiding. Have you spent time raiding in any MMO? Do you understand what it consists of? Most groups should be downing content such as VG and Gors in a matter of <10 hours.
Yes, which is every one of the many times people have said to me “well you just don’t want to raid then,” I tell them “you are definitely right, I DON’T want to do the type of raiding you describe.”
But what I do want to do is the experience I have described above, several times, where it has all the same mechanics as the current raids, but with much lower risk of failure. You can reread these paragraphs the next time you feel inclined to say “then you don’t want to raid,” because I’m sure by this point that this won’t be the last.
Try playing WoW where it took over 100 attempts to down a Mythic boss. Try playing MMO where any raids take practice and perfection. You are defying what is fundamental to raiding and you fail to understand this. Raids require mechanics that are required to be followed otherwise YOU WILL FAIL. It’s so unbelievably simple.
No, I understand that’s how WoW raids work, it’s one of the reasons I don’t play WoW, and I understand that’s how people want hard mode raids to work. I have absolutely no interest in that and never will, but I am interested in the sort of gameplay experience I described. You can have yours, and I can have mine, and we can both be happy about it.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
No, I understand that’s how WoW raids work, it’s one of the reasons I don’t play WoW, and I understand that’s how people want hard mode raids to work. I have absolutely no interest in that and never will, but I am interested in the sort of gameplay experience I described. You can have yours, and I can have mine, and we can both be happy about it.
No, you don’t. Again, do some research. WoW has Mythic raiding, which is the really hard 100+ wipe stuff, and they’ve also got LFR which is the exact mode you’re asking for.
I really do recommend you go see what’s going on in WoW raid content. If multiple raid difficulties is what you want, it’s basically ground zero.
Nalhadia – Kaineng
Nope. Mechanics are mechanics, whether they wipe the raid or not. You can learn as much by failing a mechanic and then continuing forward as you can by failing the mechanic and stopping dead. In fact, you can learn significantly more, because you’re under less stress, which helps learning and attention to detail, you aren’t forced to repeat portions that you already understand, and you have a generally more positive outlook.
So, you create a raid that does not emphasis mechanics. Can you even fathom what this entails? Dungeon explorable modes had mechanics. They were negligible. People sat in corners and cleaved everything down. This would reflect in raids. If mechanics did not wipe you then there would be a work-around. A druid would simply heal through green circles. If you sat in a blue orb and got teleported you would simply run back. If a red orb as on the group you simple heal through it/knock it back. You are asking for reduced difficulty in raids because you enjoy the mechanics, yet you do not want to perform the mechanics. There is no way to nerf this content in the way you want without it being a stacking zerg-down fest. You think players will perform the mechanics because “they want to.” This is false. Groups will condemn that kind of behavior for the sake of clearing content quickly. Easy-mode raiding does not teach one to raid. Not at all. It teaches one the minimum effort they need to perform to accomplish the content that is presented. This has been shown over such a large period of time with players going from LFR to normal mode in WoW.
It really depends on the goal though. If the goal is to complete a hard mode raid, then you’d be right. If the goal is to gain access to the sort of lower-risk raiding experience I actually want, then playing the current raids would actually be counter-productive.
I literally have nothing to say to you regarding this if you think your time spent here arguing with EVERYONE on a subject that will NEVER happen is more valuable than practicing the content you are complaining about.
Again, I have ZERO interest in raiding in its current form, and have been perfectly honest about this repeatedly (and yet people still seem shocked each time). What I am interested in is content with the same mechanics as the raids, but with much lower risk of actual failure. The type of content I want is different than the kind of content you want, but why can’t we have both?
Yeah, you have zero interest in raiding but you are 100% interested in the mechanics it brings, BUT you want the mechanics nerfed to the ground so you can ignore them. Do you even see yourself typing?
I’m not saying “it’s ok for this story to not be for you.” I’m saying this story is a completely independent arc from the main story.
. . . and therefore I shouldn’t care that I can’t participate in it. I’m sorry, but no.
If you cared you would be participating in it, not wasting your time here. I’m sorry, but no.
Let me give you a simple example, Golem MKII world boss. Has three mechanics. One is that it creates a wide ring of ranged attack, not terribly dangerous. Another is that it hits the ground three times, tricky to avoid all three in melee, but they knock you down if they hit, third is the killed, a pattern of death fields that will almost inevitably kill you if you get caught in them for more than a second.
Let me give you a counter-example. VG has three main mechanics. One creates red orbs which are required to be knocked back out of the raid, not terribly dangerous. Another creates blue orbs which teleport players and cause damage, tricky to avoid in melee but they will cause some trouble. The third is the green circles which if ignored will almost inevitably kill your group if neglected. Do you see where I’m going here? Mechanics are not why you are successful in open world meta events. Numbers is why. If you had 20 people going up VG it would be extremely easy. Your point is definitely null.
I love this boss. Yes, you don’t have to master the mechanics of it, there are places you can range it down in relative safety, and if you do personally die, you can rez and run back in under 30 seconds. Losing is highly unlikely, I doubt I’ve ever seen it happen. But you can play better than “didn’t fail it.” You can choose to melee him, which increases the risk of falling significantly, You can attempt to dodge every single incoming attack, even if this isn’t absolutely required by the challenge. It is fun to try to avoid all of these attacks, even though failing to do so doesn’t mean wiping and having to start all over again. You may not enjoy that without the risk of utter failure, but you don’t have to, it’s not for you.
Let’s be real here. You’re comparing a world boss to raiding.
Do you mean from the people who are “insignificant forum posters?” Do they only matter when they agree with you?
Insignificant to the total population, yes. Insignificant on how every reply is directed to you? Completely different situation there big guy.
Exactly as legendary as current legandaries are. The value is in how cool they look, not in their rarity.
Indeed, and as I have stated I do not believe legendaries should be gated behind clearing a raid wing. It’s all speculation at this point though and arguing about it is pointless.
Yes, which is every one of the many times people have said to me “well you just don’t want to raid then,” I tell them “you are definitely right, I DON’T want to do the type of raiding you describe.”
So, you have no interest in raiding yet you wish to raid. Strokes chin hair
But what I do want to do is the experience I have described above, several times, where it has all the same mechanics as the current raids, but with much lower risk of failure. You can reread these paragraphs the next time you feel inclined to say “then you don’t want to raid,” because I’m sure by this point that this won’t be the last.
I’m going to break this down for you…reaalllll slow. If you do not wish to raid…. then perhaps you do not deserve to experience the content?
No, I understand that’s how WoW raids work, it’s one of the reasons I don’t play WoW, and I understand that’s how people want hard mode raids to work. I have absolutely no interest in that and never will, but I am interested in the sort of gameplay experience I described. You can have yours, and I can have mine, and we can both be happy about it.
When you say “hard-mode” raids you mean normal raids. There are no hard mode raids lol. Also, raids are not significant to WoW. This is how all raids work. Raids are not simple zerg fests. WoW is just a specific example.
You’d be amazed at your potential if you applied yourself. I know you don’t have time yet you are on these forums all hours of the day every day.
@STIHL
Even those barriers prove to be a challenge to those who consider themselves “casual.” Finding a precurser off of chance or purchasing one for 1000g alone is unrealistic to most player who put in less than 10 hours a week, not to mention the additional 1000g worth of mats required and the WvW, Open world, Dungeon, and other requirements. My point is that legendary armor is going to take some work. There’s no way to even understand how it’s going to work in it’s current state since there is little information on it so it is really pointless to condemn raiding or argue over it. It’s all speculation.
(edited by Avarice.2791)
No, you don’t. Again, do some research. WoW has Mythic raiding, which is the really hard 100+ wipe stuff, and they’ve also got LFR which is the exact mode you’re asking for.
I really do recommend you go see what’s going on in WoW raid content. If multiple raid difficulties is what you want, it’s basically ground zero.
I know what I want out of GW2’s raids, and I asked for that. WoW has nothing to teach me that I need or want to know.
This would reflect in raids. If mechanics did not wipe you then there would be a work-around. A druid would simply heal through green circles. If you sat in a blue orb and got teleported you would simply run back. If a red orb as on the group you simple heal through it/knock it back.
You could. And your group would probably pass the raid. But you wouldn’t have to do that, you could still try to catch the orbs, still try to avoid the teleports, still try to get rid of the orbs. That’s up to you, it’s up to how you play. The mechanics would still exist, how you choose to react to them is up to you.
I would be expecting at least slightly tighter tuning than existing dungeons though. I mean, missing a few of the mechanics would be more recoverable than the current dungeons, and I’m sure the sort of people who can six-man VG or drop Gorseval without gliding could figure out ways to game easy mode even harder, but they would have no real advantage in doing so, since the loot would be so much worse, and the sort of teams that struggle with hard mode raids would not be able to “facetank” the bosses even in easy mode. They would still die if they tried, it would just be more forgiving than the current raid is.
Yeah, you have zero interest in raiding but you are 100% interested in the mechanics it brings, BUT you want the mechanics nerfed to the ground so you can ignore them. Do you even see yourself typing?
Yes, and that sums it up well enough. I enjoy challenge, but I do not enjoy repetition. This is an unchangable fact about me. So I appreciate when the game gives me opportunities to perform interesting tasks, but I dislike when the game requires me to perform those tasks, and otherwise forces me to repeat the content again. There is no future in which I will believe otherwise, so I don’t know what to tell you.
Let me give you a counter-example. VG has three main mechanics. One creates red orbs which are required to be knocked back out of the raid, not terribly dangerous. Another creates blue orbs which teleport players and cause damage, tricky to avoid in melee but they will cause some trouble. The third is the green circles which if ignored will almost inevitably kill your group if neglected. Do you see where I’m going here? Mechanics are not why you are successful in open world meta events. Numbers is why. If you had 20 people going up VG it would be extremely easy. Your point is definitely null.
No, recoverability is why open world events are more successful. I’ve actually taken on Golem MKII with less than a dozen people (slow period on a bad map). With VG, if you fail to catch a green circle, it’ll likely wipe most of the group, the end. If you catch a blue circle during the later phases and end up deep in damage, you might fall, and die, and be out of the round. If you die fighting Golem MKII, you can WP to about 30s away, closer than the raid entrance is to VG. For an easy mode raid, the mechanics would be tweaked to be less likely to result in your defeat, and/or give you a better chance of rejoining the fight if you are defeated.
This isn’t untrod ground, they have high level fractals and low level fractals, treat the raid as a high level fractal, and turn it into a low level one.
Insignificant to the total population, yes. Insignificant on how every reply is directed to you? Completely different situation there big guy.
How so?
So, you have no interest in raiding yet you wish to raid. Strokes chin hair
If you don’t understand what I am ankitten ot asking for my this point then I doubt I can help you.
When you say “hard-mode” raids you mean normal raids. There are no hard mode raids lol.
So you would consider the current raids to be “about average” in difficulty compared to other content in GW2?
You’d be amazed at your potential if you applied yourself. I know you don’t have time yet you are on these forums all hours of the day every day.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
I know what I want out of GW2’s raids, and I asked for that. WoW has nothing to teach me that I need or want to know.
r u 4 rela?
Like come on man. “I don’t want to experience exactly what I’m asking for and see how it worked in another game!” Sticking your fingers in your ears and going LALALA doesn’t exactly strengthen your argument.
Here watch this. It’s a WoW video but it still has a lot of directed points. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8ac2sQHJLI
Nalhadia – Kaineng
(edited by Sarrs.4831)
I know what I want out of GW2’s raids, and I asked for that. WoW has nothing to teach me that I need or want to know.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
@STIHL
Even those barriers prove to be a challenge to those who consider themselves “casual.” Finding a precurser off of chance or purchasing one for 1000g alone is unrealistic to most player who put in less than 10 hours a week, not to mention the additional 1000g worth of mats required and the WvW, Open world, Dungeon, and other requirements. My point is that legendary armor is going to take some work. There’s no way to even understand how it’s going to work in it’s current state since there is little information on it so it is really pointless to condemn raiding or argue over it. It’s all speculation.
My entire point, and something that has made GW2 a very attractive game, it’s very realistic for someone who can only play casually for 7 hours a week, to work towards a Legendary, with no Walls directly Preventing them attaining it.
Case in point, I think we can both agree that making 1 gold an hour is not a hard requirement. As such, a player who could play for 1 hour a day, in 3 years of their super easy casual mode of play, they could buy a Legendary right off the TP. Now, to that player, that Legendary, symbolizes, 3 years of work, saving, and not spending that money on other things. In fact that might be the only thing they really have of worth. But, nothing was there to stonewall them. There was no direct barrier put in that stopped them from making that slow, steady, journey in this game.
And it’s the fact that they knew that there is nothing stopping them from getting that “Ultimate Prize” , that kept that player in the game for 3 years and keeps them logging in, that feeling of being included, that knowing that “In 3 years I could get that, if I just made sure to work on it and focus”
The wonderful part of GW2, was that it did not matter if you are a Hare or a Tortoise, you both could both get your Trophy, it was just a matter of how long it would take each of you to get the finish line.
The new Direction of Legendary’s changes that, Suddenly, no the Tortoise can’t win in this game anymore, and that sends a ripple into the community, sure, they might not be vocal about on on the forums, but most people don’t leave games with a bang, they leave with a quiet good bye to their guild and move on. Want to get a real feel for this Forums touching base with the community, Just ask yourselves, how many people do we know in your guild or how many friends you have in game, that also post on the forums, truth is, I bet that number is very small, which should give you the idea that only a very minute percent of the players post on the forums. Couple that with the understanding that often times, the person with 1 hour of play time a day, is not going to be among them, because they are not going to spend their game time, posting. So, the few that do, it’s pretty easy to grasp that speak for masses, that will simply not have the time to come here to talk themselves, where a Hardcore gamer, does have the time to post on the forums, so they will be disproportionately represented on any forum.
I think Anet is making a very bad decision with their new direction, a horrible one to tell the truth. The Question now becomes, can they afford to keep the players that are elite enough to think that VG is easy, while running the risk of loosing all the players that realize that Raids are simply beyond their Skill/Time to be able to beat, and this vast amounts of content and collections suddenly become “Not even worth it to try”
That is for Anet to decide, not us, but, unless they can find a solution that will compromise what they have put in already, and make some changes, to somehow provide a door for everyone, it will become a decision they will have make.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
Here watch this. It’s a WoW video but it still has a lot of directed points. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8ac2sQHJLI
I went through the video. I didn’t play WoW that much, I hated it. So tell me if I’m wrong.
Basically what he said is : LFR require zero effort. At 10:11 he said, regardless of what you are doing, you will get loot. I don’t know what this represent exactly. Does he mean like GW2 dungeon or Fractal. Whatever happen, you will most likely be able to go through them unless you have a pure incompetent team. I don’t see how it’s bad.
But his main point is that LFR require zero effort and give equal or similar reward. The thing is, nobody ask for that. To me they should add a WvW Legendary Armor and a PvP legendary armor so the principe of Legendary isn’t blocked behind raid, and then no put any skin as a reward in easy mode. (No legendary armor, no weapons skin, no mini). The reward from easy mode would be gold, xp, ascended trinkets and armor. (maybe in less quantity than the normal raid).
Anyway. Like I said numerous times. It’s not because Blizzard implemented poorly their LFR, that Anet need to be stupid if they do their easy-mode. The reward should be balanced.
Thaddeauz [xQCx]- QC GUILD
Basically what he said is : LFR require zero effort. At 10:11 he said, regardless of what you are doing, you will get loot. I don’t know what this represent exactly. Does he mean like GW2 dungeon or Fractal. Whatever happen, you will most likely be able to go through them unless you have a pure incompetent team. I don’t see how it’s bad.
I linked it mostly for the context on how lower difficulty options affect the higher difficulties, particularly the parts when he’s speaking about raiding until he meets Illidan or the Lich King. Big parts of the buildup and the atmosphere of those raids is that you can’t simply ezmode your way through and get to them; reaching and defeating them is gratifying in itself in a way that easy modes cannot be, and which easy modes strips from harder modes.
The gear in LFR and similar modes is an entirely different ballgame because of how GW2 gearing differs so much compared to WoW gearing. One of WoW’s biggest problems in the current expansion is that there was, in 6.0 and 6.1 (the first two raid tiers), LFR’s gear drowned out lower tiers of content because of its higher ilvl. It’s not really relevant but if you would like I can go into more detail.
This does not bear much of a direct analogy to GW2 because of how the content rewards are primarily skins and cosmetic based, or raw economics. However, if an easy-mode raid were introduced to GW2 without sufficient limiters to the Ascended drop rate, this could cause catastrophic long-term damage to the game, as Ascended crafting materials prop up large portions of the game’s economy. If you can get ascended armor and weapons from the raids, why ever both crafting… Goodbye market.
But his main point is that LFR require zero effort and give equal or similar reward. The thing is, nobody ask for that. To me they should add a WvW Legendary Armor and a PvP legendary armor so the principe of Legendary isn’t blocked behind raid, and then no put any skin as a reward in easy mode. (No legendary armor, no weapons skin, no mini). The reward from easy mode would be gold, xp, ascended trinkets and armor. (maybe in less quantity than the normal raid).
Addressing your first concern here, that is what Ohoni is asking for. He does want a mode where you can ‘play pretend’ with the mechanics, not pay them much heed, and still defeat the encounter, and still progress on your legendary collection and other skins. LFR actually does work for the difficulty scale that Ohoni is asking for; it gets you in, you get to look at the shiny environment and all the moves he does, but barring significant failures you don’t actually fail the boss fight.
I have no problem with legendary armor being added to PvP and WvW. I honestly think that adding legendary armor into the WvW seasons once the revamp is done would be a great move.
Anyway. Like I said numerous times. It’s not because Blizzard implemented poorly their LFR, that Anet need to be stupid if they do their easy-mode. The reward should be balanced.
Because of the group nature of raids and how you must form a group to address the content, balancing the rewards to be appropriately enticing without throwing other game elements out of whack is pretty difficult. This is actually another problem that Blizzard’s had with LFR but again, not strictly relevant, I won’t go into it unless you really want me to.
That isn’t to say that ANet can’t do it, but it’s a lot of treading on eggshells which could be avoided by simply saying “No, the difficulty is what it is”, and this is primarily addressing the problem of rewards when there are other problems with introducing an extra difficulty level to the content.
Nalhadia – Kaineng
(edited by Sarrs.4831)
However, if an easy-mode raid were introduced to GW2 without sufficient limiters to the Ascended drop rate, this could cause catastrophic long-term damage to the game, as Ascended crafting materials prop up large portions of the game’s economy. If you can get ascended armor and weapons from the raids, why ever both crafting… Goodbye market.
What? Of course there would a be limit to the ascended drop rate. What do you expect, that just because they add an easy mode they will make 2 pieces of ascended drop at each boss?? There is ascended drop in raids, fractal, PvP, WvW, etc. Did we say goodby market? No, then why would we for an easy mode. Again, that’s not an argument against easy-mode. That’s an argument against bad reward management. You can make the same argument about fractal if they ever decided to remove the daily requirement and give 100% chance of ascended at level 10. But nobody talked about fractal saying Oh what out this could happen and destroy the market. No because Anet didn’t show any sign of doing that nowhere in the game, why would they start that in easy mode? Most probably you would only have RNG chance one a week at an ascended pieces per boss. Similar or lower than the current raid, which is pretty low.
Addressing your first concern here, that is what Ohoni is asking for. He does want a mode where you can ‘play pretend’ with the mechanics, not pay them much heed, and still defeat the encounter, and still progress on your legendary collection and other skins. LFR actually does work for the difficulty scale that Ohoni is asking for; it gets you in, you get to look at the shiny environment and all the moves he does, but barring significant failures you don’t actually fail the boss fight.
Well, not everybody have the same idea of what an easy mode would be. I just hate when people dismiss the idea of easy mode because of the version of easy-mode they imagine, that’s not the only one. It’s like when we talk about personnal dps meter and people rage against the idea because they don’t want other people to so their dps. It’s not because there is the words dps meter in it that it ALL the idea are the exact thing. Easy-mode can mean A LOT of thing and I’m sure we can come up with a lot of version of easy-mode that would be acceptable to the majority of the player base. Let’s not just dismiss it because the version of easy mode that Blizzard created was bad.
Because of the group nature of raids and how you must form a group to address the content, balancing the rewards to be appropriately enticing without throwing other game elements out of whack is pretty difficult. This is actually another problem that Blizzard’s had with LFR but again, not strictly relevant, I won’t go into it unless you really want me to.
That isn’t to say that ANet can’t do it, but it’s a lot of treading on eggshells which could be avoided by simply saying “No, the difficulty is what it is”, and this is primarily addressing the problem of rewards when there are other problems with introducing an extra difficulty level to the content.
I just don’t see the difficulty there at least not in GW2. Yes in a gear based game like WoW of course I see the problem. In WoW like game it’s binary. Either it give the next level of gear you need or it doesn’t. If it doesn’t, then it’s over you won’t be doing it, there is no reason. If it give you the level of gear you want, then it’s about your preference. What is the best content to do to get that gear I want. Do I want to do the hard raid which higher chance of gear, or the easy mode with less chance. There will be only one good answer. It will be different for everybody, but there will be a general direction for the population.
In GW2, reward don’t work like that. People will always want gold, materials, ascended gear for alts, etc. It’s easy to balance reward in that case. An easy mode wouldn’t be much shorter in time than doing the normal raid with a good team. Right now, doing the wing 1 with a good team take you between 60-90min. An easy would probably take 30-60min with most group. You can’t really go faster than that (unless we talk about speed running, but that’s a small minority). The main difference is the number of people able to complete them in that time. As long as the reward for the normal raid is more than twice the reward you get from the easy mode. That reward will be balanced.
Just take the exemple of fractal. Fractal Pre-hot had a well balanced reward system. The best reward was in fractal 50 and most people were doing that level en priority. If you have more time to do several fractal you would then do level 20, 30 or 40. If you had no enough time for a level 50 you would do a level 20 or 30. If you were with friend not as good, then you could do level 20 or 30. If you didn’t have gear you would do level 20, 30, etc. Everybody had a level to do depending on their gear, experience, time and skill. And the reward was balanced enough between level (with the fact that you add daily) so that none of them were irrevelant.
Post HoT. The reward is badly balanced. Everybody is doing level 51-80. Nobody is doing level 80+ because there is no reason to do so. Nobody is doing level 50- because the reward is crap (unless you do it the first time, or for an achievement).
The exact same thing work with easy mode. You receive the majority of the reward once per week for each raid in normal and once per week for each raid in easy mode. And that you get a better reward in normal raid, while still having a decent reward in easy mode, then everybody will be able to choose what ever you want. Got time? Do the normal raid and then do an easy mode. You are with friends that are not really good? Do some easy mode. Just have 1 hours and no friends online? Do an easy mode. Want the best reward? Do an normal raid.
Again. It’s not because some people ask for ridiculous thing in an easy mode that easy mode should be dismissed. We can talk as a community and figure out what is best instead of this easy mode will break everything don’t touch my raid vs current raid is evil only 1% of the population play it what about casual give me everything for no effort.
Thaddeauz [xQCx]- QC GUILD
If you don’t understand what I am ankitten ot asking for my this point then I doubt I can help you.
Help me?? Lolllll. I think you are the only one who needs help big guy. I’m doing juuuuuuust fine.
So you would consider the current raids to be “about average” in difficulty compared to other content in GW2?
I would consider the current raids about average when comparing to the current raids. I mean… everything you say literally makes no sense. Why would I compare raiding to open world and call it hardcore based off that. I swear man, you type without a clue regarding content.
Again, I have zero interest in “applying myself” to raids in their current form, it is not an activity that I would ever enjoy, no matter how much I “applied myself” to it. “Applying myself” to it would make my life measurably worse, not better, so I don’t see why you keep insisting that I should, despite my protestations.
SO DONT RAID. I’m done man. Literally done. Enjoying your continuation of trolling these forums. Seriously. You’re not making an impact. You’re annoying people. Your idea is short sighted. You points are all fallacies. I can’t…
It’s a circular conversation that will never end until you come to the realization that maybe people want different things than you do, and that maybe they are not wrong for wanting the things they want.
Indeed, and I’ve been explaining…over…and over…and over… and over… why your idea WILL NOT WORK with dozens of points and each time you reply with fallacies which require me to repeat myself.
@Sarrs
This mode where you can play “pretend” with mechanics is called the rest of the game. I would be willing to bet Ohani has explored little of this. If he wishes to challenge this assumption he can post his gw2efficiency link. Not reply with an additional fallacy/troll.
(edited by Avarice.2791)
If you want easy mode raids, you literally have the rest of the game to experience the type of content you desire. See fractals, dungeons, world bosses, and the HOT maps.
Different content can cater to different players. You don’t need to like everything.
Regarding legendary armor, I wouldn’t mind if it eventually becomes available in other parts of the game. But “exclusive” access is not new with HOT. You can only obtain the new legendary weapons through pve. You can only achieve the new legendary backpiece through pvp.
Eventually, you’ll be able to get a legendary backpiece through fractals. Eventually, legendary armor through raids (and who knows what else – currently, you need to do at least some open world pve). Anything you can’t buy off the trading post is in some way "exclusive. "
EDIT: removed references to individual players
(edited by Absurdo.8309)
I think both sides have cognizant arguments that should be heard.
Yes, the conversation has become a little circular because of the same small group of people (on both sides) pushing their agenda.
However, between the hyperbole/namecalling/belittling comments (again, from both sides), there is still a debate/conversation worth having. Please don’t let it devolve into a grudge match between egos. So, stop directing comments at individual players and making blanket hypothetical statements. Focus instead on making your argument in as clear and calm a method as possible.
This is an important topic for many of us.
I feel like the points I make are sound, then he turns it around into something that is completely irrelevant every time. After awhile it gets to be too much then in comes then temp ban! I’ve literally gotten 3-4 infraction points off this guy. I simply can not continue in this toxic conversation where none of my points are even being addressed otherwise I will face a perma-ban. I’ve had people whispering me in-game thanking me for saying what I am saying.
Literally, the only thing I wish to see at this point is his gw2 efficiency, so I can see how far he progressed in this game via achievements.
Example: I will state Dev resources are limited. He will reply it’s just a bit of copying and pasting code. A few hours work.
Like… What do you say to that.
The logic is that he wants it for the mechanics… Yet he wants to mechanics to be irrelevant. How does this even make sense. How would groups not exploit this. Does anyone coming from WoW really believe that LFR taught you how to be a good raider?
(edited by Avarice.2791)
I think both sides have cognizant arguments that should be heard.
Yes, the conversation has become a little circular because of the same small group of people (on both sides) pushing their agenda.
However, between the hyperbole/namecalling/belittling comments (again, from both sides), there is still a debate/conversation worth having. Please don’t let it devolve into a grudge match between egos. So, stop directing comments at individual players and making blanket hypothetical statements. Focus instead on making your argument in as clear and calm a method as possible.
This is an important topic for many of us.
Yes exactly. There is good argument on both sides. Let’s not take extreme on both side as a general represent of the other sides.
Most people that want an easy mode don’t say thing like ‘’I have zero interest in “applying myself” to raids in their current form’’ or ‘’If we can’t have a easy-mode raid, I rather that the game don’t have the normal raid either’’.
Just like not everybody that are against easy mode just want to jealously keep their content out of filthy casual enjoyment just becasue that would lessen their own sense of achievement and pride.
Thaddeauz [xQCx]- QC GUILD
I feel like the points I make are sound, then he turns it around into something that is completely irrelevant every time. After awhile it gets to be too much then in comes then temp ban! I’ve literally gotten 3-4 infraction points off this guy. I simply can not continue in this toxic conversation where none of my points are even being addressed otherwise I will face a perma-ban. I’ve had people whispering me in-game thanking me for saying what I am saying.
You don’t need to respond to the guy that make stupid argument. It sad, because he make all the people that ask for an easy mode look bad.
Thaddeauz [xQCx]- QC GUILD
I think both sides have cognizant arguments that should be heard.
Yes, the conversation has become a little circular because of the same small group of people (on both sides) pushing their agenda.
However, between the hyperbole/namecalling/belittling comments (again, from both sides), there is still a debate/conversation worth having. Please don’t let it devolve into a grudge match between egos. So, stop directing comments at individual players and making blanket hypothetical statements. Focus instead on making your argument in as clear and calm a method as possible.
This is an important topic for many of us.
Yes exactly. There is good argument on both sides. Let’s not take extreme on both side as a general represent of the other sides.
Most people that want an easy mode don’t say thing like ‘’I have zero interest in “applying myself” to raids in their current form’’ or ‘’If we can’t have a easy-mode raid, I rather that the game don’t have the normal raid either’’.
Just like not everybody that are against easy mode just want to jealously keep their content out of filthy casual enjoyment just becasue that would lessen their own sense of achievement and pride.
Your point is well-taken. However, I would caution assigning equal weight to the hyperbole. I notice you aren’t quoting anyone in your “no easy mode raids” strawman, for example.
Sooooo..
There’s like 4 or 5 people still debating over this.
Maybe everything has been said now?
Your point is well-taken. However, I would caution assigning equal weight to the hyperbole. I notice you aren’t quoting anyone in your “no easy mode raids” strawman, for example.
So my point isn’t valid because I didn’t went through 50 pages of text to find quote on the other side? Would you have done it?
Keep in mind that i quoted only one guys. The only guy on both side that say thing as extreme. It’s not because because 1 side have a really really extreme guys that both side doesn’t have equal weighs. Anyway, we are not here to count the amount of crazy talk on both side. I just don’t want that these crazy talk just shutdown any discussion.
It may not seem as crazy as that guy said, but when the anti-easy-mode side just keep pointing at WoW and doesn’t address the fact that it’s the reward system in the WoW LFR that screw it up, no the LFR itself.
Thaddeauz [xQCx]- QC GUILD
I feel like the points I make are sound, then he turns it around into something that is completely irrelevant every time. After awhile it gets to be too much then in comes then temp ban! I’ve literally gotten 3-4 infraction points off this guy. I simply can not continue in this toxic conversation where none of my points are even being addressed otherwise I will face a perma-ban. I’ve had people whispering me in-game thanking me for saying what I am saying.
You don’t need to respond to the guy that make stupid argument. It sad, because he make all the people that ask for an easy mode look bad.
It’s not necessarily that I’m responding to the subject, but him. It seems like 90% of this “LFR” movement is coming from this guy. I mean he literally caused the merger of all threads. What makes me sad is it sounds like he is having trouble completing content so I was at first, offering advice on how to better himself and what worked for me. He ignored this stating he has no interest in that or raiding. He then goes to another thread where and individual is having trouble finding dungeon groups and actually has the tenacity to state “Why don’t you just pay people 50 silver (Or something) to run you through dungeons.” This made me mad. For me this is personal. I have no issue with a LFR format raid besides the fact that it would push back all other content (I’d rather see a hard-mode raid tbh). I think Legendary armor should not be walled off by raiding. I do not think people who do not wish to raid should reap the rewards from raiding. (Non-Tier Gear rewards.)
Also, I challenge you to find one crazy thing that I have stated. Not belittling… Just outright wrong.
(edited by Avarice.2791)
How about we take one argument from each side and focus on the points and counterpoints of those arguments.
For example:
- Some in the hardcore raider community feel that offering lower difficulty levels would take away from the overall raiding experience – either by lowering the prestige associated with the game mode or by encouraging the developers to move away from difficult content – something many really want.
- Some in the more casual community feel that the addition of layered difficulties would actually be healthy for raiding in the long run, because more raiders/players enjoying the content would potentially give Anet a reason to focus more resources on that game mode.
Let’s hear the pros and cons – and maybe focus on specific talking points that advocate one approach or the other. It may not have an impact on the direction of the game, but it will allow us as players to more clearly express how we feel about this topic.
For main topic:
I think YES
because GW2 should not copy other games with tanks and healers and a strong party power. They decided to remove trinity and create low party content. That is what GW2 is! Raids are not GW2!
One of the small elite team who isn´t affected by idiocy.
How about we take one argument from each side and focus on the points and counterpoints of those arguments.
For example:
- Some in the hardcore raider community feel that offering lower difficulty levels would take away from the overall raiding experience – either by lowering the prestige associated with the game mode or by encouraging the developers to move away from difficult content – something many really want.
- Some in the more casual community feel that the addition of layered difficulties would actually be healthy for raiding in the long run, because more raiders/players enjoying the content would potentially give Anet a reason to focus more resources on that game mode.
Let’s hear the pros and cons – and maybe focus on specific talking points that advocate one approach or the other. It may not have an impact on the direction of the game, but it will allow us as players to more clearly express how we feel about this topic.
As someone who has successfully cleared content I will start by saying that I would have to be extremely selfish to feel that an easy-mode would take away from raids. That would be like saying I feel like level 25 fractals take away from level 100 fractals.
What I do not want is for rewards to be tied between both modes (If a LFR type mode ever existed) I do not want achievements to be shared. I do not want to see some guy who zerged down VG running around with a mini. I don’t want to see players making more than 1/10th of the shards if they put in 1/10th of the time.
On top of this. I would prefer it if raids did not backwards progress from where they are now. I do not wish to see an easier-mode simply on the basis that it would delay everything else in this game. What I would rather see is a more difficult mode if the Devs had the time on their hands. This would keep raiders interested and the current normal mode would train players in for the more difficult mode. There would be actual worlds first competitions with extremely hard-core guilds who gain world recognition. Or… you can make a mode with zero replay-ability for the players who do not wish to raid… yet have not reached many aspects in this game besides raiding.
Let’s be real. Anyone coming from WoW. How much of a benefit was LFR to you when your goal was getting to a more difficult game-mode. What this was, was the in-between of dungeon and normal mode gear. It had little replay-ability unless you were going for a specific reward, which then you did not value the content. It taught nothing when it came to mechanics. Mechanics were “forgiving” meaning they were ignored.
@Bloody
GW2 did not copy the trinity of tanks/healers/dps. Most fights do not require a tank. Most fights do not require a healer. What you have is support/condi/power dps. Completely abstract from what raids typically are in other games. It’s hard to redesign something that has been perfected over 15 years. I believe Anet did a fantastic job.
(edited by Avarice.2791)
Your point is well-taken. However, I would caution assigning equal weight to the hyperbole. I notice you aren’t quoting anyone in your “no easy mode raids” strawman, for example.
So my point isn’t valid because I didn’t went through 50 pages of text to find quote on the other side? Would you have done it?
Keep in mind that i quoted only one guys. The only guy on both side that say thing as extreme. It’s not because because 1 side have a really really extreme guys that both side doesn’t have equal weighs. Anyway, we are not here to count the amount of crazy talk on both side. I just don’t want that these crazy talk just shutdown any discussion.
It may not seem as crazy as that guy said, but when the anti-easy-mode side just keep pointing at WoW and doesn’t address the fact that it’s the reward system in the WoW LFR that screw it up, no the LFR itself.
I meant no disrespect, and took your advice to heart in removing personal references.
I’m just addressing your argument towards hyperbole. I’m not addressing the merits towards your point of view. I think the fact that you would need to wade through several pages to find an opposing quote demonstrates that the “easy mode raid” side (mainly one person) is winning on hyperbole.
As someone who has successfully cleared content I will start by saying that I would have to be extremely selfish to feel that an easy-mode would take away from raids. That would be like saying I feel like level 25 fractals take away from level 100 fractals.
What I do not want is for rewards to be tied between both modes (If a LFR type mode ever existed) I do not want achievements to be shared. I do not want to see some guy who zerged down VG running around with a mini. I don’t want to see players making more than 1/10th of the shards if they put in 1/10th of the time.
On top of this. I would prefer it if raids did not backwards progress from where they are now. I do not wish to see an easier-mode simply on the basis that it would delay everything else in this game. What I would rather see is a more difficult mode if the Devs had the time on their hands. This would keep raiders interested and the current normal mode would train players in for the more difficult mode. There would be actual worlds first competitions with extremely hard-core guilds who gain world recognition. Or… you can make a mode with zero replay-ability for the players who do not wish to raid… yet have not reached many aspects in this game besides raiding.
Let’s be real. Anyone coming from WoW. How much of a benefit was LFR to you when your goal was getting to a more difficult game-mode. What this was, was the in-between of dungeon and normal mode gear. It had little replay-ability unless you were going for a specific reward, which then you did not value the content. It taught nothing when it came to mechanics. Mechanics were “forgiving” meaning they were ignored.
@Bloody
GW2 did not copy the trinity of tanks/healers/dps. Most fights do not require a tank. Most fights do not require a healer. What you have is support/condi/power dps. Completely abstract from what raids typically are in other games. It’s hard to redesign something that has been perfected over 15 years. I believe Anet did a fantastic job.
I don’t think it is a big secret that I am an advocate of adding a more casual experience into 10 person gameplay (raiding). I’ve been very vocal about it.
With that said, I agree with most of what you have posted here.
I personally think the key is coupling the reward with how fast you kill the boss. Let’s be honest, the mechanics in the raid are really well done and challenging, but that challenge diminishes significantly as you learn the mechanics (as good mechanics should).
The difference between a pro raider and a casual raider comes down (imo) to how well you master those mechanics in conjunction with your knowledge of player builds and optimal group composition – which manifests (in all of the fights we have now) in one thing – killing the boss faster.
So, if kill speed is the differentiator, why not make it the differentiator for rewards as well. Remove the concept of the enrage timer and replace it with set intervals where the raid reward diminishes (just like the gold, silver, bronze system from open world). Not only would this allow them to open the experience to more builds and group compositions (and more skill levels) – it would give them a way to easily UP the difficulty as well. If your group can kill the Vale Guardian in 4 minutes, maybe you earn a special – ultra rare – cosmetic drop as well.
To the point of future fight design, this idea of gold/silver/bronze doesn’t have to be limited solely to kill speed. Maybe it is determined by how many adds you kill during the fight or keeping X number of NPCs alive . My point is, there is a scaling difficulty system already in the game that would fit very nicely into raid design (imo) that would allow for BRUTALLY difficult fights without locking more casual players out of the experience/story.
Just a thought.
(edited by Blaeys.3102)
How about we take one argument from each side and focus on the points and counterpoints of those arguments.
For example:
- Some in the hardcore raider community feel that offering lower difficulty levels would take away from the overall raiding experience – either by lowering the prestige associated with the game mode or by encouraging the developers to move away from difficult content – something many really want.
- Some in the more casual community feel that the addition of layered difficulties would actually be healthy for raiding in the long run, because more raiders/players enjoying the content would potentially give Anet a reason to focus more resources on that game mode.
Let’s hear the pros and cons – and maybe focus on specific talking points that advocate one approach or the other. It may not have an impact on the direction of the game, but it will allow us as players to more clearly express how we feel about this topic.
I severely doubt that ANET could balance the rewards for easy mode raids. Look at fractals. Everyone runs swamp because the rewards are imbalanced. Look at dungeons (pre nerf). Everyone ran the same paths because the rewards were imbalanced.
Even if they could balance the rewards, I would still be opposed, albeit less strongly. I would just see it as a waste of developer resources. We don’t have easy mode arah, or easy mode jumping puzzles, for example.
As for arguments against raids, I’ll quote myself:
Full disclosure: I think raids are the best content in HOT. I’ve yet to see a good argument against them. Most seem to boil down to the same arguments:
1. It’s too hard. Answer: There is other pve content that can cater to your skill level. Try out dungeons, fractals, open world pve, or world bosses. It’s healthy for the game to provide for different skill levels.
2. I want the skins/minis/legendary armor. Answer: It’s ok for content to have exclusive rewards. And these rewards are just cosmetic. They provide no statistical advantage. As for legendary stat swapping, it is expensive to make a legendary and mostly useless. It’s much cheaper to experiment with exotic sets or even stat change ascended gear in the mystic forge. Personally, I’ve only stat changed my legendary weapons once.
3. I don’t like the raiding community. Answer: Then make your own group. Personally, I’ve found very few groups toxic or mean. But there is nothing stopping you from forming a group of like minded individuals.
4. I don’t have the time to raid. Answer: I’m not sure there’s much I can do about this one. Raids are weekly, so you have all week to find the time. But if you can’t, then you’re missing out on other content as well. Like dragon stand, the pvp ladder, or significant wvw encounters. I would suggest finding content in gw2 that fits your play schedule.
5. I want to experience the lore. Answer: Watch a YouTube video, or have someone open a finished instance for you. Speaking personally, I enjoy raids for the encounters, not for the lore.
6. I want to experience the mechanics. Answer: Then raid! The reason why most encounters are difficult is because of the cumulative effect of all the mechanics. But if you want low stress boss mechanics, try world bosses
Couldn’t of said it better Absurdo.
I think both sides have cognizant arguments that should be heard.
Yes, the conversation has become a little circular because of the same small group of people (on both sides) pushing their agenda.
However, between the hyperbole/namecalling/belittling comments (again, from both sides), there is still a debate/conversation worth having. Please don’t let it devolve into a grudge match between egos. So, stop directing comments at individual players and making blanket hypothetical statements. Focus instead on making your argument in as clear and calm a method as possible.
This is an important topic for many of us.
You are correct, it is an agenda. But one is an agenda of inclusion, the other is one of exclusion.
If I was going to push an Agenda, my goal would be to make the game fun for the most amount of of people, possible, and to make content that was inclusive to as many demographics as I was able.
The truth is, no one enjoys being excluded from Content, I can promise you, everyone here that clamoring for Raids to be exclusive to the less then elite, would be appalled and indigent if Anet made content that somehow barred the elite player.
Allow me to put forth an idea. Imagine if there was a Story Mode or Raid Mode, for the new content. But you could only do one of them. You had to pick, if you did the Story, your account would locked out from the Raid, if you did the Raid, your account would be locked out from the Story.
While the story Mode and the Raid, would offer the same ability to complete any world collections, they each also had their own unique Armor Skins weapon Skins, the raid would have them as random Drops, the Story Mode would reward them for completing Achievements, they would be account bound, so they could not be sold on the BL. The raid of course would also drop it’s ascended items, extra loots and what have you, where the Story would give you some nominal coinage, and a generic champion bag, not much. In the name of Fairness, the Weapon Skins would identical, except for one would be Red and the other Blue.
I can promise you, that every elite player that is praising the exclusion that raids provide them, would be livid over this.
They would lose their minds over being excluded from content that was geared for casuals, and they would feel entitled to take part in it, so much so that some of them would make alt account, just to run that casual content. Simply because, they felt that they were owed it. I know this because, while I have become more casual over the many years I have played, at one time I was a very hardcore player. While maybe people who were always casual don’t grasp that, I do, in a very real sense. I was hard core back in the days when 17 hour farms, and 10 hour raids, where the norm, 48 hour week end splurges living on MtDew and Cheetos, was, “Catching Up” Now days, I’m older, job, family, house, in short, life came up, that kind of investment is a bygone era. But back then, I was all for excluding people that could not invest the time I could, and they made the same arguments that are being made today. In that time, we have eliminated spawn camping, kill stealing, we have added in instance based gaming, and raids have gone from a 10 hour ordeal to a 2 hour Tank&Spank.
Coming full Circle, in 20 years, I’ll say this, No one wants to be excluded from content, no one, and this is a progressive lesson that every game company is learning, you simply can’t afford to exclude people, no matter what the elite might want to say. Unless you plan to make a very niche game, and have a self imposed limitation on your demographic, you need to be all inclusive.
Truth is, we can hem and haw all we want, but here is the final reality, It is not a question on Anet’s part of they will eventually make raids inclusive, it is a question of how much they will hemorrhage players before they do.
So the real question becomes, how should they do it.
Personally, I love the idea of a Story Mode (1 – 5 players) – Raid Mode (10 players) Division, and I adore the Idea that players would need to chose between doing the Story or the Raid.
Just my two bits, from a old time raider.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
@STIHL
Here’s my issue with this. You’re creating content that FORCES you to be excluded from one or the other in your scenario. This is not the case with raiding in this game. No one is telling “casuals” that they can not raid. It simply demands a bit of extra work as this is the true, end-game, end-all content.
There are two things that people fail to recognize:
1.) Raids will become easier over time. Why? The population will become more accustomed to the encounters providing higher success rates. This happens naturally with any raid in any MMO. This will be multiplied once LFG has a fixed raid tab.
2.) Raids require practice and work. Raiding simply would not be raiding if it was a zerg-fest insta-win scenario. This wouldn’t be fun. Let me expand on this. It would be fun the first few times around… but how long are you going to continue with this? There is plenty of content in this game that will prep you for raiding.
You can argue that it would include others and be the martyr who claims they will not use work-arounds to mechanics… but this simply is not true. You can see this in WoW with “LFR.” An easy-mode zerg-fest raid would not have replay-ability after so many attempts. It’s simple. Challenge = longitivtiy when it comes to content. Especially end-game content. What’s after raiding? Nothing.
Now, you may ask: Why not just create a “LFR?” Well, while I’m not entirely against this, I am against Anet using their precious resources on content that has zero replay-ability. If the rewards are nerfed compared to normal-mode raiding, then it will simply not attract players for repeated encounters. I would much rather see raiding go in the opposite direction where it becomes progressively more challenging, rather than less.
I respect what you are saying, but I do not believe raids are gated behind anyone except for those with a time gate. (They can’t afford to play more than 1-2 hours at a time.) IF this is the case though then these players will be gated from a lot more than just raiding. I get the feeling, a lot of players who are complaining about being excluded from raiding are simply inexperienced to either this game, or MMO’s in general. They bought this game, did the main story, ran a few events, and said “WELP, it’s time to get into the most hard-core content this game has to offer!”
(edited by Avarice.2791)
@STIHL
Here’s my issue with this. You’re creating content that FORCES you to be excluded from one or the other in your scenario. This is not the case with raiding in this game. No one is telling “casuals” that they can not raid. It simply demands a bit of extra work as this is the true, end-game, end-all content.
Actually, by maintaining that it should be hard (IE: Exclusive) that is exactly what you are saying. Using different words does not change the message.
And there is no “End-All-Content” there is always next patch, next update, next expansion.
Just saying.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
I get the feeling, a lot of players who are complaining about being excluded from raiding are simply inexperienced to either this game, or MMO’s in general. They bought this game, did the main story, ran a few events, and said “WELP, it’s time to get into the most hard-core content this game has to offer!”
Also for the record, I have played MMO’s for a long time, I have raided, and I’ll be honest, the Raid in this game, no offence to the dev team, I am sure they put in a lot of work and effort, but was as uninspired as they come, a painfully distilled generic Tank&Spank in the purest form, with quite literally.. Nothing else to it.
So lets not fool ourselves about what this raid offers, The only thing that would remotely inspire anyone to do this kind of lack-luster bland encounter beyond the first time is Loot.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
Actually, by maintaining that it should be hard (IE: Exclusive) that is exactly what you are saying. Using different words does not change the message.
Hard and exclusive are not the same thing. If you don’t believe that statement look up a synonym dictionary :P
With time and practice comes an increase in skill (Hopefully) and what is hard now to the casual, may be easier later on in this game’s life. Do you have any thoughts on the rest of my reply?
And there is no “End-All-Content” there is always next patch, next update, next expansion.
Absolutely, but respectfully, what content will be more progressive than raiding when it comes to PvE? In most games the “end-all-content” is raiding in PvE, despite stretching over time or expansions. That’s the point I’m trying to raise when I state that.
Also for the record, I have played MMO’s for a long time, I have raided, and I’ll be honest, the Raid in this game, no offence to the dev team, I am sure they put in a lot of work and effort, but was as uninspired as they come, a painfully distilled generic Tank&Spank in the purest form, with quite literally.. Nothing else to it.
Absolutely, I have no doubt that you are an experienced and seasoned MMO veteran. Respectfully, I disagree with your opinion on the state of GW2 raids. It’s not tank&spank in the purest form. Why? Less than half the bosses actually require a tank to start. When you say nothing else to it, what about the mechanics? The mechanics are vital in SP and SV. They created a new holy trinity that differs from tank/dps/healer which I define as support/condi/power. Support being the players who buff/heal/breakbar/etc. You could argue that they are similar, but don’t break the system that has been at work for over 15 years is what I say.
I can understand you personally disliking raids, but this is an opinion and not a basis for an argument.
(edited by Avarice.2791)
I think both sides have cognizant arguments that should be heard.
Yes, the conversation has become a little circular because of the same small group of people (on both sides) pushing their agenda.
However, between the hyperbole/namecalling/belittling comments (again, from both sides), there is still a debate/conversation worth having. Please don’t let it devolve into a grudge match between egos. So, stop directing comments at individual players and making blanket hypothetical statements. Focus instead on making your argument in as clear and calm a method as possible.
This is an important topic for many of us.
You are correct, it is an agenda. But one is an agenda of inclusion, the other is one of exclusion.
If I was going to push an Agenda, my goal would be to make the game fun for the most amount of of people, possible, and to make content that was inclusive to as many demographics as I was able.
The truth is, no one enjoys being excluded from Content, I can promise you, everyone here that clamoring for Raids to be exclusive to the less then elite, would be appalled and indigent if Anet made content that somehow barred the elite player.
Allow me to put forth an idea. Imagine if there was a Story Mode or Raid Mode, for the new content. But you could only do one of them. You had to pick, if you did the Story, your account would locked out from the Raid, if you did the Raid, your account would be locked out from the Story.
While the story Mode and the Raid, would offer the same ability to complete any world collections, they each also had their own unique Armor Skins weapon Skins, the raid would have them as random Drops, the Story Mode would reward them for completing Achievements, they would be account bound, so they could not be sold on the BL. The raid of course would also drop it’s ascended items, extra loots and what have you, where the Story would give you some nominal coinage, and a generic champion bag, not much. In the name of Fairness, the Weapon Skins would identical, except for one would be Red and the other Blue.
I can promise you, that every elite player that is praising the exclusion that raids provide them, would be livid over this.
They would lose their minds over being excluded from content that was geared for casuals, and they would feel entitled to take part in it, so much so that some of them would make alt account, just to run that casual content. Simply because, they felt that they were owed it. I know this because, while I have become more casual over the many years I have played, at one time I was a very hardcore player. While maybe people who were always casual don’t grasp that, I do, in a very real sense. I was hard core back in the days when 17 hour farms, and 10 hour raids, where the norm, 48 hour week end splurges living on MtDew and Cheetos, was, “Catching Up” Now days, I’m older, job, family, house, in short, life came up, that kind of investment is a bygone era. But back then, I was all for excluding people that could not invest the time I could, and they made the same arguments that are being made today. In that time, we have eliminated spawn camping, kill stealing, we have added in instance based gaming, and raids have gone from a 10 hour ordeal to a 2 hour Tank&Spank.
Coming full Circle, in 20 years, I’ll say this, No one wants to be excluded from content, no one, and this is a progressive lesson that every game company is learning, you simply can’t afford to exclude people, no matter what the elite might want to say. Unless you plan to make a very niche game, and have a self imposed limitation on your demographic, you need to be all inclusive.
Truth is, we can hem and haw all we want, but here is the final reality, It is not a question on Anet’s part of they will eventually make raids inclusive, it is a question of how much they will hemorrhage players before they do.
So the real question becomes, how should they do it.
Personally, I love the idea of a Story Mode (1 – 5 players) – Raid Mode (10 players) Division, and I adore the Idea that players would need to chose between doing the Story or the Raid.
Just my two bits, from a old time raider.
This is a false analogy. Anyone can participate in a raid.
Not all content has to cater to the lowest skill level. I do not mean this in the pejorative sense. But it’s ok to have hard content, as long as there is easy content too. And there is. Play the content you are comfortable playing.
There is other content with no easy mode. Take arah. It has lore elements. Unique skins. Rare drops. Challenging bosses. I don’t recall anyone calling for easy mode arah. Because there was other content to enjoy.
I think many players are burned out with the lack of content since HOT. We’ve really only had one new thing: raids. But raids aren’t fit everyone. What you should really be clamoring for are new maps, fractals, and dungeons. I agree these are long overdue.
We did get new shatterer, and I like it a lot for casual content. Gliding, interesting mechanics, epic scale. But the hard core raiders didn’t clamor for a hard mode shatterer, because they had raids. Similarly, you should all for content that is more amenable to your play style. That’s not raids, easy mode or no.
This is a false analogy. Anyone can participate in a raid.
Thissss. The main barrier between those who refuse to raid and those who raid is the work they are willing to put into it. The refusal to wipe on a boss until the kinks are worked out is not a game-side problem. It is merely a problem of the player with a toxic mentality. It is not Anet’s issue that players do not wish to play/optimize their role’s. Use a bit of outside resources where people DID THE WORK FOR US. “But… but I wanna bearbow!!!!!”
The good news is that soon players will become more accustomed to raids allowing for casual players as a described above to slip through and get carried through content eliminating the need to wipe.
To be clear STIHL, this is not directed to you, or anyone on these forums.
I have made my point however about being excluded and entitlement.
While every elitist who was calling for Keeping raids Hard suddenly changed their Tune when faced with being locked out of Content saying that it was wrong, even if the content would be far below their skill level, and a waste of their time, since they could get Better by doing “Raid Mode” they still wanted access to it, because they felt entitled to it.
Whereas, every Casual had already mentally Clicked “Story Mode” with zero regrets.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
(edited by STIHL.2489)
@STIHL
It’s merely the fact that hard != excluded therefore your analogy is a fallacy. “Casuals” that are excluded from raiding at this moment will eventually either become better by doing the work that comes with raiding, or decide that they do not wish to become better at the hobby they are putting time into. (Although, hopefully this should happen anyways.) There will be a point where the difficulty of a boss, and the learning curve of the community will meet as time goes on. This means that eventually the majority will be clearing this content. This happens with raiding in EVERY MMO.
Elitists are not calling for keeping raids “hard.” Raids in this game are “normal.” There are no “hard” raids. This is something you defined where as the current raid content is merely “normal” due to the fact that there are no other difficulty modes.
I’m not trying to belittle you or say anything really. I’m just discussing your thought process.
@STIHL
It’s merely the fact that hard != excluded therefore your analogy is a fallacy. “Casuals” that are excluded from raiding at this moment will eventually either become better by doing the work that comes with raiding, or decide that they do not wish to become better at the hobby they are putting time into. (Although, hopefully this should happen anyways.) There will be a point where the difficulty of a boss, and the learning curve of the community will meet as time goes on. This means that eventually the majority will be clearing this content. This happens with raiding in EVERY MMO.
Elitists are not calling for keeping raids “hard.” Raids in this game are “normal.” There are no “hard” raids. This is something you defined where as the current raid content is merely “normal” due to the fact that there are no other difficulty modes.
I’m not trying to belittle you or say anything really. I’m just discussing your thought process.
I have to hop in on this one. The reason this happens in other games is that gear eventually passes the content, creating the less intensive experience more casual raiders are looking for. That will never (and should never) happen since there is no gear treadmill in GW2.
And, yes, the raids in GW2 aren’t necessarily as difficult as weve seen in other games (Ive been raiding for 9 years across multiple MMOs now), but the idea that they are designed for players with diverse skill levels and interest is not only incorrect, it has been contradicted by the developers themselves.
There are valid discussion points against including a more casual raid level (developer time, reward disparity, etc). “It’s actually easy, so learn to play,” or “the content will eventually be easy for everyone” are not among them.
I raid – I even enjoy raiding sometimes – but, as the guild leader for a guild with more than 100 active members with greatly varying levels of skill and playstyles, I see a need for a deeper, more inclusive raiding model in this game.
Elitists are not calling for keeping raids “hard.” Raids in this game are “normal.” There are no “hard” raids. This is something you defined where as the current raid content is merely “normal” due to the fact that there are no other difficulty modes.
But that’s only a matter of opinion. My guild have about 500 players in it. 50% of those would tell you that raid are super hard in GW2 and only 5% would tell you that raid are normal.
What is the truth? Neither response are good because easy or hard are subjective term, not objective. You will always have people better than you that will find these raid to be too easy, while other people will find too hard to even try.
Personnally, I would love to have a harder version of our current raid. But out of the 20 people in my raiding group, I believe that only 5-6 of them would be with me on that. Most of them find the raid just fine or hard, but manageable. It’s not because the difficulty of current raid is fine with you that it’s fine with everybody.
Sor far it seem that the raiding community in GW2 represent between 5 to 15% of the total community and about 5-10% of the devs are working on them, so that’s fine. But as a hardcore raider, if easy mode could bring 30 or 50% of the community into raid and increase the amount of devs working on raid I would be happy with that. And from the point of view of people who can’t raid right now (because of time, organization or skill) would be very happy to experience that content too.
Thaddeauz [xQCx]- QC GUILD
I have to hop in on this one. The reason this happens in other games is that gear eventually passes the content, creating the less intensive experience more casual raiders are looking for. That will never (and should never) happen since there is no gear treadmill in GW2.
Actually, I’m not talking about that… literally… at all. That is obvious. What I am talking about is general community progression on current content. It happens and it is noticeable especially in pugs. Why does this happen? More and more people down the content putting in practice and reaching the level of skill required.
And, yes, the raids in GW2 aren’t necessarily as difficult as weve seen in other games (Ive been raiding for 9 years across multiple MMOs now), but the idea that they are designed for players with diverse skill levels and interest is not only incorrect, it has been contradicted by the developers themselves.
No one is saying that raids are designed for players with diverse skill levels. Raids have a learning curve which requires a certain level of “skill” to succeed.
There are valid discussion points against including a more casual raid level (developer time, reward disparity, etc). “It’s actually easy, so learn to play,” or “the content will eventually be easy for everyone” are not among them.
What now? Valid discussion points FOR “LFR” style raids? Are you saying there were was an official discussion thread somewhere? Do you really believe as a community we are not progressing against the content that raiding brings?…? I don’t think I ever said “It’s actually easy so learn to play.” You’re putting words in my mouth. I highly disagree with you disagreeing that content will eventually be easy for everyone as I’ve explained above and numerous times. If you really don’t think the community progresses on content you need to open your eyes.
I raid – I even enjoy raiding sometimes – but, as the guild leader for a guild with more than 100 active members with greatly varying levels of skill and playstyles, I see a need for a deeper, more inclusive raiding model in this game.
Congratulations on the guild. Let’s hear your ideas?
Complaining != helpful
Suggestions == helpful
You’re simply leading on a toxic conversation that could continue for 100’s of posts. If you add in suggestions or support your opinions then this has the potential to lead to discussion.
But that’s only a matter of opinion. My guild have about 500 players in it. 50% of those would tell you that raid are super hard in GW2 and only 5% would tell you that raid are normal.
Listen, I’m just saying that there is no such thing as “hard-mode.” Raiding in its current state is normal raiding. There is no differentiation on difficulties. This really isn’t even a point that is worth arguing over due to the fact that I’m not talking about personal preferences on the difficulty of raids. I’m simply saying SV/SP is normal-mode raiding.
The general community is not ready for a hard-mode raid let alone normal raiding, but perhaps a year down the road they will be.
Also, speculating how many players are raiders or how many Dev’s are working on raids really isn’t worth it due to the fact that it is all speculation.
(edited by Avarice.2791)
I’m just addressing your argument towards hyperbole. I’m not addressing the merits towards your point of view. I think the fact that you would need to wade through several pages to find an opposing quote demonstrates that the “easy mode raid” side (mainly one person) is winning on hyperbole.
Nah. Basically anytime one of the pro-raiders mentions LFR, it ends in either hyperbole or strawman or both. Seriously half of the mentions of LFR flat out say that it “killed WoW”.
I bet every other MMO on the market would love to have such a dead game as WoW.
@STIHL
Here’s my issue with this. You’re creating content that FORCES you to be excluded from one or the other in your scenario. This is not the case with raiding in this game.
You are joking, right? Raids, by their very design, are meant to be a content for small minority. A content that is exclusive because the people it was made for want it to be so. You can see the examples in this very thread, where several times it was mentioned that raids would be devalued if everyone could be running them.
No one is telling “casuals” that they can not raid.
Indeed. But on the other side the demand is for the “difficulty bar” (be it skill, gear, time or organization based" to be so high that in practice most people would never clear it. Raiders say that “everyone can do it” and that they invite everyone, but they don’t really mean it and they don’t really want it. Their Raids would lose that prized exclusivity and prestige otherwise.
I respect what you are saying, but I do not believe raids are gated behind anyone except for those with a time gate. (They can’t afford to play more than 1-2 hours at a time.) IF this is the case though then these players will be gated from a lot more than just raiding.
There’s nothing i am gated from in this game… except raiding. HoT maps aren’t that good in that regard too, that’s true, but then, they are going to get fixed soon, according to what Anet said last AMA.
I get the feeling, a lot of players who are complaining about being excluded from raiding are simply inexperienced to either this game, or MMO’s in general.
I beg to differ. I’m complaining against raiding because i have that experience. Many other players dislike raids for the same reason – because they know them all too well.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
This does not bear much of a direct analogy to GW2 because of how the content rewards are primarily skins and cosmetic based, or raw economics. However, if an easy-mode raid were introduced to GW2 without sufficient limiters to the Ascended drop rate, this could cause catastrophic long-term damage to the game, as Ascended crafting materials prop up large portions of the game’s economy. If you can get ascended armor and weapons from the raids, why ever both crafting… Goodbye market.
The gold economy is already a fiasco and Anet bares full responsibility for that. It deserves a good shake-up.
Addressing your first concern here, that is what Ohoni is asking for. He does want a mode where you can ‘play pretend’ with the mechanics, not pay them much heed, and still defeat the encounter, and still progress on your legendary collection and other skins. LFR actually does work for the difficulty scale that Ohoni is asking for; it gets you in, you get to look at the shiny environment and all the moves he does, but barring significant failures you don’t actually fail the boss fight.
I think my position has been exaggerated for dramatic effect, but you’ll continue to do so, so it’s pointless for me to try and correct you yet again.
I have no problem with legendary armor being added to PvP and WvW. I honestly think that adding legendary armor into the WvW seasons once the revamp is done would be a great move.
I have no problem with this either, but it also needs to be available via PvE activities.
Ohoni.6057:
So you would consider the current raids to be “about average” in difficulty compared to other content in GW2?
I would consider the current raids about average when comparing to the current raids.
You understand that this is not how comparisons work, right?
If you want easy mode raids, you literally have the rest of the game to experience the type of content you desire. See fractals, dungeons, world bosses, and the HOT maps.
Yes, we do have that stuff, but we would also like easy mode raids. The other content is different than what easy mode raids would be.
But “exclusive” access is not new with HOT. You can only obtain the new legendary weapons through pve. You can only achieve the new legendary backpiece through pvp.
Both of those things are new with HoT. Before HoT, worst case scenario you could always at least buy a Legendary with gold, and even crafting one yourself required only minimal interaction with various content. It required, for example, less time running dungeons than I’ve spent attempting raids so far. So while in theory there were some “exclusive” items pre-HoT, they were really much less exclusive than the items added post-HoT.
Literally, the only thing I wish to see at this point is his gw2 efficiency, so I can see how far he progressed in this game via achievements.
I’d rather not post my efficiency page, but if you’d like to know my current achievement points, it’s sitting at 22518, which puts me at 90% on my server. I don’t think it’s half bad considering I have very few PvP or WvW ones. And, just for the record, I’ve been playing MMOs since the Asheron’s Call betas, although very few of them hooked me in for long periods of time and I often burned out before endgame. GW2 is by far my longest stretch playing a single game, and that’s because it was a very different game than previous MMOs.
Example: I will state Dev resources are limited. He will reply it’s just a bit of copying and pasting code. A few hours work.
Like… What do you say to that.
Agree to disagree and move on until an actual developer provides more accurate information?
The logic is that he wants it for the mechanics… Yet he wants to mechanics to be irrelevant. How does this even make sense. How would groups not exploit this. Does anyone coming from WoW really believe that LFR taught you how to be a good raider?
I took the time to explain how I believe it should work and why I believe it would be beneficial. You’re free to disagree, but you should have no good reason to remain confused as to what I’m asking for or why.
What makes me sad is it sounds like he is having trouble completing content so I was at first, offering advice on how to better himself and what worked for me. He ignored this stating he has no interest in that or raiding.
I never once asked for help in how to better complete the existing raids. My position has consistently been that what the current raids are selling, I ain’t buying. I like the basic premise of them, but I will never enjoy the sort of “grind at it until you beat it” content model. I do not play Dark Souls, and never want to play Dark Souls.
He then goes to another thread where and individual is having trouble finding dungeon groups and actually has the tenacity to state “Why don’t you just pay people 50 silver (Or something) to run you through dungeons.”
That was a completely different topic, there is no reason to conflate the two.
What I do not want is for rewards to be tied between both modes (If a LFR type mode ever existed) I do not want achievements to be shared. I do not want to see some guy who zerged down VG running around with a mini.
What is the problem with a player running around with a mini that he likes? I mean, minis aren’t the top of my priority list, I have more than enough minis, but if someone really wants a slubling mini or something, why is that something that should be kept out of his reach?
On top of this. I would prefer it if raids did not backwards progress from where they are now. I do not wish to see an easier-mode simply on the basis that it would delay everything else in this game.
I continue to assert that easy mode raids should not take a significant amount of development time to produce, and that if it does, it should come fro outside the core raid team. If it does slow the development of anything, it should be from long-term projects that aren’t even on our radar yet, so we’d never even notice that it happened.
What I would rather see is a more difficult mode if the Devs had the time on their hands. This would keep raiders interested and the current normal mode would train players in for the more difficult mode.
That’s an insult to the playerbase. “Rather than giving you guys what you genuinely need to enjoy this game, we’d rather double down on the few people that are currently satisfied with the content, by making something that only an even tinier niche of them could enjoy.” And not only that, but it would certainly take MORE time and effort to produce, since it would need to have much tighter tolerances than the current raid, while an easy mode would be looser, meaning it likely would need to use the core raid team to produce, and spend a lot more time balance testing.
No.
So, if kill speed is the differentiator, why not make it the differentiator for rewards as well. Remove the concept of the enrage timer and replace it with set intervals where the raid reward diminishes (just like the gold, silver, bronze system from open world). Not only would this allow them to open the experience to more builds and group compositions (and more skill levels) – it would give them a way to easily UP the difficulty as well. If your group can kill the Vale Guardian in 4 minutes, maybe you earn a special – ultra rare – cosmetic drop as well.
I don’t know about this. I also play Marvel Heroes, and that game’s Ultron instance has a similar mechanic, and it’s always frustrating when the time ticks down and you miss out on the “gold” rewards just by a few seconds. I mean, it’s better than getting nothing, but I don’t think that tying reward to speed is the best way to do things. Speed clears should be more about bragging rights than rewards. If they want to incentivize them it should be through leaderboards, not reward tiers.
I severely doubt that ANET could balance the rewards for easy mode raids. Look at fractals. Everyone runs swamp because the rewards are imbalanced. Look at dungeons (pre nerf). Everyone ran the same paths because the rewards were imbalanced.
But it’s not that they can’t do better, it’s that they chose not to. If they wanted the rewards to be balanced for those options then they easily could change them to be.
1.) Raids will become easier over time. Why? The population will become more accustomed to the encounters providing higher success rates. This happens naturally with any raid in any MMO. This will be multiplied once LFG has a fixed raid tab.
Taking lessons from other games is difficult though, because there is built-in power creep to those games. A player who can’t complete Raid A when it releases might come back an expansion or two down the road, gain ten levels over the previous cap, gain junk drops off the mobs in the new area, come back and solo the raid. We don’t expect that to happen here.
Yes, the average skill level will rise over time (hopefully), so a new player joining a pug is more likely to succeed than he is now, by being carried by the rest of his team, but how is getting carried really all that different from playing on easy mode? Why not just have that easy mode version that a group of entirely new players can enjoy?
2.) Raids require practice and work. Raiding simply would not be raiding if it was a zerg-fest insta-win scenario. This wouldn’t be fun.
It wouldn’t be the type of raiding you enjoy, and it wouldn’t be fun for you, this much I can agree with. Whether it would be fun for other players is entirely out of your hands. You would still get to do the hard mode raid you prefer, this would just be a new option for those who do NOT have fun playing the sort of raiding you enjoy.
An easy-mode zerg-fest raid would not have replay-ability after so many attempts. It’s simple. Challenge = longitivtiy when it comes to content. Especially end-game content. What’s after raiding? Nothing.
This is a silly argument to make. If it were true, then raiders would just play the raid until they actually succeeded, and then stop, in which case it’s a pointless form of content. People were still running dungeons daily for years after most had completed them easily. So long as there are still rewards to be earned via raiding, I see no reason why players would not run easy mode raids at least once a week (or hard if they could manage it). The “challenge” isn’t really a factor, so long as it’s fun and rewarding.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
You are joking, right? Raids, by their very design, are meant to be a content for small minority. A content that is exclusive because the people it was made for want it to be so. You can see the examples in this very thread, where several times it was mentioned that raids would be devalued if everyone could be running them.
No… I’m not joking. You are literally not gated off from completing raid content. There is a difference between finding raiding too difficult and being completely gated off from it. I mean… completely missed the point there lol
Indeed. But on the other side the demand is for the “difficulty bar” (be it skill, gear, time or organization based" to be so high that in practice most people would never clear it. Raiders say that “everyone can do it” and that they invite everyone, but they don’t really mean it and they don’t really want it. Their Raids would lose that prized exclusivity and prestige otherwise.
I do stand by “everyone can do it” but I also believe some people are not capable of reaching this point due to a lack of effort and commitment. Like you said… raiding is not for everyone and this is okay. Demanding the content should be catered towards you is wrong in my eyes. Also, I never claimed I invite everyone. I raid with a team. That’s not on me.
There’s nothing i am gated from in this game… except raiding. HoT maps aren’t that good in that regard too, that’s true, but then, they are going to get fixed soon, according to what Anet said last AMA.
I absolutely love the HoT maps and I believe they went above and beyond what my expectations were from GW1. This has nothing to do with anything. Oh… you’re talking about the mechanics of the HoT maps… Why are you talking about that? How does “There is nothing I am gated from except raiding” lead to that? lol… Why are you gated from raiding?
I beg to differ. I’m complaining against raiding because i have that experience. Many other players dislike raids for the same reason – because they know them all too well.
I don’t really know what this means? So you have the potential to raid, but you know them too well so you are gated by raiding?
Shooting myself in the foot here, but here we go. Also, as a side note I would of loved to see your efficiency to see how you gear and spec so I could offer advice, or tell you you’re all gooood. Just my two cents. I’m not going to take your word on how many achievement points you have. Sorry big guy you have enough back-and-forth in your posts as it is where I’m not sure what your word is worth.
Agree to disagree and move on until an actual developer provides more accurate information?
What are you talking about? It’s pretty obvious the work that would be brought forward with integrating a whole seperate difficulty. You don’t have to work for Anet to know this one.
I took the time to explain how I believe it should work and why I believe it would be beneficial. You’re free to disagree, but you should have no good reason to remain confused as to what I’m asking for or why.
Yes, then I told you why it wouldn’t work and you essentially said no. You’re asking for a raid where mechanics don’t wipe you meaning mechanics will be bypassed and this will be another dungeon-mode zerg-fest where players sit in the corner, outheal mechanics, and cleave a boss down. In reality you want this for the rewards… at least at first this was what you wanted until you went all noble to push a point.
I never once asked for help in how to better complete the existing raids. My position has consistently been that what the current raids are selling, I ain’t buying. I like the basic premise of them, but I will never enjoy the sort of “grind at it until you beat it” content model. I do not play Dark Souls, and never want to play Dark Souls.
You don’t need to ask for help to see that you clearly are asking for help. Did you not post in a thread called “Raid teaching runs: Proving accessibility?” I think that is the literal definition of asking for help. If you don’t want to raid. Then don’t raid. What do I think? I think you want to raid. I think you are tired of failing. I think if you cleared the raid once you would completely flop on your views.
That was a completely different topic, there is no reason to conflate the two.
No, it relates because you are literally asking for a nerfed version so you can complete the content. You have two options. Do the work or pay people to do it for you. This relates to the thread where you told a guy to pay 50s to each player to help him because the dungeon system lacks incentive and therefore lacks players. I could easily argue that you can pay a guild to help you out with the content.
What is the problem with a player running around with a mini that he likes? I mean, minis aren’t the top of my priority list, I have more than enough minis, but if someone really wants a slubling mini or something, why is that something that should be kept out of his reach?
He didn’t earn it the same way others did? You could say the mini was catered to him.
I continue to assert that easy mode raids should not take a significant amount of development time to produce, and that if it does, it should come fro outside the core raid team. If it does slow the development of anything, it should be from long-term projects that aren’t even on our radar yet, so we’d never even notice that it happened.
You make a lot of claims without backing them up. Do you still not realize how fast easy-mode raids would die?
That’s an insult to the playerbase. “Rather than giving you guys what you genuinely need to enjoy this game, we’d rather double down on the few people that are currently satisfied with the content, by making something that only an even tinier niche of them could enjoy.” And not only that, but it would certainly take MORE time and effort to produce, since it would need to have much tighter tolerances than the current raid, while an easy mode would be looser, meaning it likely would need to use the core raid team to produce, and spend a lot more time balance testing.
No, this is an insult to you and the few who refuse to raid. Why would it take more effort to produce? By your logic all it would take is some copy and pasting and tweaking in variables. You have no idea what the population is for/against raiding. This entire paragraph is full of fallacies. It’s crazy.
But it’s not that they can’t do better, it’s that they chose not to. If they wanted the rewards to be balanced for those options then they easily could change them to be.
It’s cute that you think players will not bypass mechanics. Take a look at LFR in WoW, seriously. Just do it.
Taking lessons from other games is difficult though, because there is built-in power creep to those games. A player who can’t complete Raid A when it releases might come back an expansion or two down the road, gain ten levels over the previous cap, gain junk drops off the mobs in the new area, come back and solo the raid. We don’t expect that to happen here.
Again, I am not talking about a built-in power creep. I am talking about the fact that experienced pugs are generally more successful with experienced pugs. This figure multiplies over time. Like, I’m literally not talking about a power creep at all.
It wouldn’t be the type of raiding you enjoy, and it wouldn’t be fun for you, this much I can agree with. Whether it would be fun for other players is entirely out of your hands. You would still get to do the hard mode raid you prefer, this would just be a new option for those who do NOT have fun playing the sort of raiding you enjoy.
Can you not see what I am saying. No rewards + Non-challenging content = short content life. Challenge + Reward = Longevity. You’re simply asking for a level of content that is already available in the game… EVERYWHERE because this particular piece of content does not cater to YOU.
This is a silly argument to make. If it were true, then raiders would just play the raid until they actually succeeded, and then stop, in which case it’s a pointless form of content. People were still running dungeons daily for years after most had completed them easily. So long as there are still rewards to be earned via raiding, I see no reason why players would not run easy mode raids at least once a week (or hard if they could manage it). The “challenge” isn’t really a factor, so long as it’s fun and rewarding.
Dude…. they do lmao. For example, my group raids 3 times a week until we clear the content. Then we drop down from 9 hours to about 2 hours a week. Why do we continue? Because the reward is there. What I don’t want is an easy-mode that offers rewards even close to on par with normal-mode. You’ve even advocated this yourself. Therefore in your head it is a mode that offers little rewards. Why would players continue? Mechanics weren’t necessary. They aren’t any more prepared for normal-mode. Now all you have is another glorified dungeon.
The reason people continued to run content is because the reward was there.
(edited by Avarice.2791)
Shooting myself in the foot here, but here we go.
Pretty much.
At this point there’s no discussion even going on. It’s just what one group wants, without any rational behind it. Leaving no room for any sort of real discourse for the actual problems.
Shame, but that’s what it’s come down too, especially when there are some real issues they could be talking about and pushing fixes for that don’t include loot/easymode.
Like proper raid finding tools, more meaningful dungeon experiences, more meaningful and clear fractals with decent mechanics and instabilities that push player growth, proper guild finding tools (the forums are a joke for this, and in game isn’t any better).
I have to hop in on this one. The reason this happens in other games is that gear eventually passes the content, creating the less intensive experience more casual raiders are looking for. That will never (and should never) happen since there is no gear treadmill in GW2.
Actually, I’m not talking about that… literally… at all. That is obvious. What I am talking about is general community progression on current content. It happens and it is noticeable especially in pugs. Why does this happen? More and more people down the content putting in practice and reaching the level of skill required.
And, yes, the raids in GW2 aren’t necessarily as difficult as weve seen in other games (Ive been raiding for 9 years across multiple MMOs now), but the idea that they are designed for players with diverse skill levels and interest is not only incorrect, it has been contradicted by the developers themselves.
No one is saying that raids are designed for players with diverse skill levels. Raids have a learning curve which requires a certain level of “skill” to succeed.
There are valid discussion points against including a more casual raid level (developer time, reward disparity, etc). “It’s actually easy, so learn to play,” or “the content will eventually be easy for everyone” are not among them.
What now? Valid discussion points FOR “LFR” style raids? Are you saying there were was an official discussion thread somewhere? Do you really believe as a community we are not progressing against the content that raiding brings?…? I don’t think I ever said “It’s actually easy so learn to play.” You’re putting words in my mouth. I highly disagree with you disagreeing that content will eventually be easy for everyone as I’ve explained above and numerous times. If you really don’t think the community progresses on content you need to open your eyes.
I raid – I even enjoy raiding sometimes – but, as the guild leader for a guild with more than 100 active members with greatly varying levels of skill and playstyles, I see a need for a deeper, more inclusive raiding model in this game.
Congratulations on the guild. Let’s hear your ideas?
Complaining != helpful
Suggestions == helpfulYou’re simply leading on a toxic conversation that could continue for 100’s of posts. If you add in suggestions or support your opinions then this has the potential to lead to discussion.
But that’s only a matter of opinion. My guild have about 500 players in it. 50% of those would tell you that raid are super hard in GW2 and only 5% would tell you that raid are normal.
Listen, I’m just saying that there is no such thing as “hard-mode.” Raiding in its current state is normal raiding. There is no differentiation on difficulties. This really isn’t even a point that is worth arguing over due to the fact that I’m not talking about personal preferences on the difficulty of raids. I’m simply saying SV/SP is normal-mode raiding.
The general community is not ready for a hard-mode raid let alone normal raiding, but perhaps a year down the road they will be.
Also, speculating how many players are raiders or how many Dev’s are working on raids really isn’t worth it due to the fact that it is all speculation.
First – to get it out of the way – the condescending, personal insults and claims that I am leading a toxic conversation have no place in this thread and only serve to derail any real discussion. You and I disagree with each other – that doesn’t mean either of us is being toxic or unreasonable – it simply means we disagree. Let’s keep it civil and try to express diverse opinions without sinking to those levels.
The points that many are trying to make are pretty simple:
- (Almost) no one is advocating removing the challenge you (and I) want in raiding.
- While I agree with you that, given time and some dedication to builds/learning, almost anyone could beat the raids, that doesn’t mean that they cannot be more inclusive and open to less dedicated players (casual players).
- There is a difference between wanting to experience the content and expecting parallel rewards. There are ways they can give players the experience while still ensuring that those who put in greater effort get greater (cosmetic) rewards.
- People are not asking for a faceroll experience – just something that doesn’t require hours of practice and time spent away from the rest of the game.
- Watching YouTube videos, entering cleared instances and being carried through hard content is not the same as experiencing the content and fight mechanics (just because they don’t want the same challenge doesn’t mean they wouldn’t enjoy toned down versions of the mechanics)
- This can be done without taking anything away from top end raid groups. It really can
Finally, I once again ask that, if you choose to respond to this, please do so without attacking or insinuating things about me personally. I am showing you that same respect and will continue to do so.
And, if you feel the discussion has run its course, that is also fine. Just step away and let those who still wish to continue do so.
Let’s (everyone) just have a civil discussion. It is what the forums are here for.
(edited by Blaeys.3102)
Shooting myself in the foot here, but here we go. Also, as a side note I would of loved to see your efficiency to see how you gear and spec so I could offer advice, or tell you you’re all gooood.
I can tell you right now that I’m mostly not raid-ready. My characters are built for open world adaptability, jack of all trades, not min-maxed for specific roles. I got surprised reactions when my Tempest had 1600 Toughness (and that wasn’t even wearing her defensive skirt). But as I’ve said, I do not WANT advice on how better to get through the raids in their current form, that is not a goal I have. All I want is help getting AROUND the raids in their current form. If you’re unwilling to help me pursue the goals I want to pursue then you’re unwilling to help me, which is your right.
Just my two cents. I’m not going to take your word on how many achievement points you have. Sorry big guy you have enough back-and-forth in your posts as it is where I’m not sure what your word is worth.
Ok, nothing I can really do about that.
What are you talking about? It’s pretty obvious the work that would be brought forward with integrating a whole seperate difficulty. You don’t have to work for Anet to know this one.
It’s pretty obvious that it wouldn’t be much work? I agree, but some seem to think it would be this massive lift. I wrote a whole thread topic discussing the difficulty (ie, lack thereof) in implementing the sort of easy mode I’m talking about, but it ended up merged into that 11 page mega-thread, so I’m not sure what page it’s on at this point. Basically though, it would just be leveraging tech they already use to access alternate content modes, and then copy-paste the current raids and reduce some HP, damage, and special affixes from the bosses to make them less threatening. Not a big deal really.
You’re asking for a raid where mechanics don’t wipe you meaning mechanics will be bypassed and this will be another dungeon-mode zerg-fest where players sit in the corner, outheal mechanics, and cleave a boss down. In reality you want this for the rewards… at least at first this was what you wanted until you went all noble to push a point.
I’ve always been making the same point, some of you just keep insisting that it’s entirely about rewards, as if that would somehow make the point less valid. I’ll repeat, and hope it sinks in this time: Rewards are certainly a factor, I do want some method of earning the raid armors, at least, via something other than hard mode raiding, but they are not the only factor to me, I ALSO want to be able to play the raid content without the level of penalty that the current raid contains. You don’t have to agree that this is a worthwhile goal, but there is no point in conversing on the topic if you cannot at least accept that this is my goal.
You don’t need to ask for help to see that you clearly are asking for help. Did you not post in a thread called “Raid teaching runs: Proving accessibility?” I think that is the literal definition of asking for help. If you don’t want to raid.
Random was offering to do teaching runs of the raids. As you guys keep insisting, I figured it was worth a shot. I detailed how that turned out in that thread. Basically it was exactly what I expected, exactly what you guys seem to like about raiding, but exactly what I hate about raiding. You cannot convince me to be happy with raiding as it currently exists in the game, that is just never something that is going to happen, so your only two choices here are to either help me get what I do want, or accept that I’m going to remain unhappy about it. I have a pretty decent idea of which of those you’d choose, and that’s fine, but please give up the pretense that it’s possible to bring me over to the dark side.
I think you are tired of failing. I think if you cleared the raid once you would completely flop on your views.
And I think you don’t know me or the twenty-five+ years of gaming I’ve experienced as well as I do. I’ve faced difficult challenges before, and overcome them, and I know what that feels like. Understand that for me, the losses and repetition are very frustrating, I would bet more frustrating than what you feel, but that’s impossible to gauge. The sense of accomplishment at overcoming those difficulties exists, but is relatively low, again I would wager much lower than what you feel when you overcome a challenge.
Given that, the net emotional impact is that the frustration far outweighs the victory, such that even after I’ve won, I feel slightly happy about it, but remain very negative on the experience as a whole. I gather that this is not how it works out for you, but just understand that it is how it works out for me. Even if I were to beat Vale Guardian or Gorseval at this point, I would be happy about that, sure, but I would still be generally upset about my time spent raiding to that point.
Again, I’m not saying you should feel the same way, if for you the victories wipe out the defeats then that’s great, for you, just please do not try to project that emotional state onto people who are not you, and may react differently to the same stimuli.
No, it relates because you are literally asking for a nerfed version so you can complete the content. You have two options. Do the work or pay people to do it for you. This relates to the thread where you told a guy to pay 50s to each player to help him because the dungeon system lacks incentive and therefore lacks players.
But you missed the point in both cases. I was not arguing that he should pay people to carry him, or that I wanted to pay people to carry me in raids. His problem was that he was having trouble finding people who wanted to run dungeons at all, and his solution to that was for ANet to provide bonus coin to other players so that they would be more willing to play with him. My assertion was that it was not ANet’s job to provide extra coin so that he could find a team, and that if he wanted other player to want to dungeon, he should provide that coin himself. This is a completely different scenario from raiding, in which I would have no problem finding people who want to raid, the only problem is that once those people are accumulated, chances are they will not succeed at the raid in its current form.
He didn’t earn it the same way others did? You could say the mini was catered to him.
And what’s wrong with that? If he looks the look of the mini, what’s wrong with him being able to have it?
You make a lot of claims without backing them up. Do you still not realize how fast easy-mode raids would die?
You do realize that is a claim with nothing to back it up, right? I think that so long as easy mode raids are fun, and they provide a path towards Legendary Armor, people would continue to run them at least until they got their Legendary armor, which would presumably take a year or more. That’s plenty of time, and then onto the next one.
No, this is an insult to you and the few who refuse to raid. Why would it take more effort to produce? By your logic all it would take is some copy and pasting and tweaking in variables.
Because making something harder, without making it literally impossible, is a delicate balance. It requires much more precision and fine tuning. Making something easier is. . . easier, you just loosen the existing screws. If you balance things to be hard in the first place, relaxing it is much easier than balancing something to be easy and then making it harder in an engaging way.
It’s cute that you think players will not bypass mechanics. Take a look at LFR in WoW, seriously. Just do it.
Again, I don’t care if players do bypass mechanics, that’s up to them. I’m just saying, they don’t have to, the mechanics would still be there. If the group’s goal is to get through easy mode as fast as possible, which I;’m sure will be the case for some, then they will figure out the most efficient ways of doing so, but if their goal is to train up for hard mode, then they would have the option to do so, and could engage the mechanics just as seriously as anyone currently raiding, just with less penalty if they miss some. Up to them, and fine whichever way they choose.
Can you not see what I am saying. No rewards + Non-challenging content = short content life. Challenge + Reward = Longevity. You’re simply asking for a level of content that is already available in the game… EVERYWHERE because this particular piece of content does not cater to YOU.
First, “no rewards” is off the table. That is just not a part of the discussion. It would need to have rewards to be worth doing. Second, challenge != fun. They are two different things. Some people find challenge to be fun, others do not. The easy mode raid would need to be fun, it would not need to be particularly challenging to be fun. For those who do see challenge as fun, the hard mode would still be there for them.
What I don’t want is an easy-mode that offers rewards even close to on par with normal-mode. You’ve even advocated this yourself. Therefore in your head it is a mode that offers little rewards. Why would players continue?
It would have to provide a path to the same rewards. It would be a slower path than hard mode, hard mode raiders would get everything first, and be able to move on to the next content once they did, but easy mode raiders would have an eventual path to them as well. I would not be surprised if easy mode raiding had a longer tail than hard mode raiding because of this.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
meh. im all for giving players more options. some people dont agree. either could be right, as options can lead to other problems. idk man, i just dk.
Team Deathmatch for PvP – Raise the AoE cap for WvW – More unique events for PvE
@Blaeys
Every one of your responses in your initial post sounded like an attack on me. You misunderstood pretty much every point I’ve raised thus far and put words in my mouth that I never said. You then raised a lot of points without backing them up with logic.
Your second post is a lot more constructive and I agree with the majority of it so I don’t sense there needs to be a response to what you said as we are for the most part agreeing. I’m simply just not sure how much more you can nerf certain content without destroying the fight and making it no different than the rest of the game. Let’s take VG. You can already survive if you miss a green circle. You can survive even with some bad breakbars and tank placement. If you nerf that further what do you even have? Just my two cents and my main argument for why raid should be forward progression and not retract backwards. Easy content is short lived.
@Ohani
I got surprised reactions when my Tempest had 1600 Toughness (and that wasn’t even wearing her defensive skirt). But as I’ve said, I do not WANT advice on how better to get through the raids in their current form, that is not a goal I have.
I don’t know what I can say here without getting banned from the forums. You just made every person who has half an idea how raiding works literally cringe. Tempest is a berserker class. All berserker. Start there. Get yourself some runes of the scholar and some proper food/utilities. Read a couple guides. Bam. You’re raid ready. Or keep this up. It’s your life mane.
(edited by Avarice.2791)