(edited by Andulias.9516)
Do you think Raids in GW2 were a bad idea?
I’ll chime in.
I am going to say that I think raids were a bad idea. It has nothing to do with how hard they are, or any of that, but simply that there really was no need for a 10 person dungeon in this game.
Also lets be honest with ourselves, when you have world meta events like Teq, TTT, Shatter, Jormag, which can take well over 20 people to do effectively, communication team work, people gathering for… a RAID… and then the boss and even the lakys are larger then life, these dragon heralds that rain death and fear upon those around them..minions that can rend you, all kinds of stuff going on, people really rally together for those events. And it’s… Beautiful!
In the face of the Meta Events in GW2, The Raids feel like a 10 man dungeon.
Now this is just me, but, a 10 man dungeon really just amounts to “Double the Pug” Experience.
Sorry, I get that some people love them and I am glad that they love them. but to me, the whole thing (while a complex dance to get it done) felt, small and insignificant for what should be this grandiose event.
I just could not really get into the idea that this was “Raid” when in GW2 there are meta events that fill maps with people, just to get them done.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
I think the developers have done a great job introducing raids in GW2, and it was the only content I really missed from GW2 prior.
I’m very happy with both that they added raid content, and that they did so well in designing it.
I would probably play a lot less if raids were not added tbh, fractals became really stale and there is no other challenging content available so the raids hit the spot right on for me!
If it’s “hard raid or nothing,” then I choose “nothing.”
Just so everyone is aware that Ohoni would happily shut down raids tomorrow to stop people having gear he won’t get.. Do not think his motivation is anything but hostile.
And you’re not even willing to consider anything that isn’t the current setup. Nobody should think that your own motivation is anything but hostile.
We got Dev posts on Raids, we got Raid communication on Raids, they are even using actual guilds/players to test the content. There is a lot of give and take here.
That has nothing to do with whether it is a “success” or not.
Compare it to every single Living World release we got since the game launched and the amount of complaints we got about various aspects of it and you get the picture.
I think the complaints have been fairly comparable to LW stuff, perhaps less of them because less people are experiencing the raid mechanics, and those that are would be of the sort that already like how those mechanics play out, but it’s hardly a sign of success that less people are even attempting the content. I mean, when most players of the game have never even been face to face with Gorseval, you can hardly expect to have an equivalent volume of feedback to things that pretty much every active player encounters.
Not really, you might call it “narrow context” but that’s what is needed. It’s content by a small sub-set of the company, it’s something NEW for the developers as well as the playerbase. We didn’t have Raids before HoT last I checked.
When you add something new, that’s the kind of “success” you want. Other metrics cannot possibly be identified in the first few months.
And that’s exactly what I said, we don’t know enough to judge it as a success or failure at this point, but there are signs indicating either is possible. If it stays a niche element that appeals to an ever shrinking portion of the players then it would be a failure, no matter how much that niche enjoys it. If it expands to something that most players enjoy on a regular basis, then it would be a success, even if that tiny niche became less satisfied with it.
First of all, the Raids weren’t supposed to be puggable in the first place, so I really don’t understand all the comments about “I can’t find a party”, “no pug accept me” or anything like that.
Remember, just because content “does what it was intended to do,” does not mean that “what it was intended to do” was a wise call in the first place. ANet may never have intended raids to be pugged, but clearly the community has overruled them on this, for reasons that would have been obvious to ANet if they kept an ear to the community of their game.
Sorry but players going away because of the Raid is a joke. If players liked the rest of the game and didn’t feel like HoT zones weren’t casual enough, or that it was so short and didn’t have enough armor sets, they wouldn’t leave the game because of the Raids. Anyone who says they leave the game because of it is hypocrite.
I certainly don’t expect any table-flipping rage quits over raiding, true, but if more and more interesting stuff ends up in raids that most players cannot reasonably participate in, more and more interesting rewards, then that will drive general dissatisfaction. Players typically don’t leave MMOs with a bang, they leave with a whisper, they just play less and less until they stop playing entirely. A general feeling that “they’re making the game not for players like me anymore” is far more destructive than a single annoying event.
Ohoni, you yourself just said you would rather have them gone than have only hard raids. As I said before, that’s quite… you-know-what-ish of you.
I consider it a far less extreme position to take then “You can never have an alternative raid mode, because while I’m happy with the raid mode I have, I can’t be happy if you get a version you enjoy more.” I mean how in any rational universe is that not a far more pathetic position to take?
But that is beside the point. Any of you guys who say you can’t get into raids because of elitism, well, sorry to say this, but you haven’t tried.
Again it is not a looking for group issue here. It is a “the content is more unforgiving than I enjoy out of content” issue. It cannot be fixed by “finding the right group to tackle the existing content,” the content is what would need to change to resolve anything.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
I am going to say that I think raids were a bad idea. It has nothing to do with how hard they are, or any of that, but simply that there really was no need for a 10 person dungeon in this game.
Maybe, maybe not. However, the place of raids in GW2 was supposed to be taken by explorable dungeons. That didn’t work out so well from ANet’s point of view. I believe there were two reasons to include raids.
- As a replacement for explorable dungeons that they felt they could commit the resources to on a regular basis. Note that while FotM could have played that role, adding a fractal a year (or less) was not the robust content addition that was needed.
- As an answer to the no (or not enough) end-game comments seen all to frequently on MMO fan sites.
I believe the biggest sticking point is L. Armor, not the raids themselves. It’s unfortunate that exclusive access to better gear is part of the baggage that comes along with raids, but there it is. I blame D&D.
(edited by IndigoSundown.5419)
If it’s “hard raid or nothing,” then I choose “nothing.”
Just so everyone is aware that Ohoni would happily shut down raids tomorrow to stop people having gear he won’t get.. Do not think his motivation is anything but hostile.
And you’d happily push him towards it by constantly protesting against him ever getting that gear, regardless whether it would affect your precious raids or not.
You think your stance is not hostile?
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
If it’s “hard raid or nothing,” then I choose “nothing.”
Just so everyone is aware that Ohoni would happily shut down raids tomorrow to stop people having gear he won’t get.. Do not think his motivation is anything but hostile.
And you’d happily push him towards it by constantly protesting against him ever getting that gear, regardless whether it would affect your precious raids or not.
You think your stance is not hostile?
Actually my stance is defensive – I’m defending raids, not making “give me what I want or I want it dead” demands.
Yeah, because Anet cater to casual players and raids are intended to be difficult. Look at the difference in difficulty between wing 1 & 2, wing 2 is considerably easier. How long until Anet give in to the tears of the casual players and make raids more accessible by adding easier difficulty levels? Scrubs have already been crying about the “difficulty” of raids.
This is something most players I associate with are concerned about, especially with how generous the enrage timers in wing 2 are making that wing easy enough as it is.
Unfortunately, while I know there’ll be a lot of people saying that won’t happen, I’d put money on it. Anet have been catering to the casual players for 3 years, they’re not about to change that now.
I question how long until raids join the pile of “dead” or “removed” content. Fractals, Dungeons, SAB and soon Raids… RIP.
If it’s “hard raid or nothing,” then I choose “nothing.”
Just so everyone is aware that Ohoni would happily shut down raids tomorrow to stop people having gear he won’t get.. Do not think his motivation is anything but hostile.
And you’d happily push him towards it by constantly protesting against him ever getting that gear, regardless whether it would affect your precious raids or not.
You think your stance is not hostile?Actually my stance is defensive – I’m defending raids, not making “give me what I want or I want it dead” demands.
No, you’re not. Those proposals were not aimed at changing raids at all. They were all aimed at adding content you yourself said you’d not be interested in. Yet you still keep protesting.
Yeah, because Anet cater to casual players and raids are intended to be difficult. Look at the difference in difficulty between wing 1 & 2, wing 2 is considerably easier. How long until Anet give in to the tears of the casual players and make raids more accessible by adding easier difficulty levels? Scrubs have already been crying about the “difficulty” of raids.
This is something most players I associate with are concerned about, especially with how generous the enrage timers in wing 2 are making that wing easy enough as it is.
Which is why it’s better to agree to those easier levels while keeping the hard ones too. Because the alternative is a nerf to existing and future content. And then there will be no hard more at all.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
(edited by Astralporing.1957)
If it’s “hard raid or nothing,” then I choose “nothing.”
Just so everyone is aware that Ohoni would happily shut down raids tomorrow to stop people having gear he won’t get.. Do not think his motivation is anything but hostile.
And you’d happily push him towards it by constantly protesting against him ever getting that gear, regardless whether it would affect your precious raids or not.
You think your stance is not hostile?Actually my stance is defensive – I’m defending raids, not making “give me what I want or I want it dead” demands.
No, you’re not. Those proposals were not aimed at changing raids at all. They were all aimed at adding content you yourself said you’d not be interested in. Yet you still keep protesting.
I have explained why it is a bad idea many times, here we go again..
1) Development time and resources wasted.
2) Seen what it did to WoW (causes burnout, splits the community and doesn’t actually increase number of people doing normal raid).
3) Nothing to aspire to in PvE again, nothing to drive people to learn and be the best they can be.
I believe the biggest sticking point is L. Armor, not the raids themselves. It’s unfortunate that exclusive access to better gear is part of the baggage that comes along with raids, but there it is. I blame D&D.
D&D didn’t have raids. In D&D the Dungeon Master adapts the difficulty level and reward level to what his players are comfortable with, or the game breaks down.
Actually my stance is defensive – I’m defending raids, not making “give me what I want or I want it dead” demands.
You can’t claim to be defending raids, because I’ve stated time and again that I have no interest in changing raids in any way. If you like raids, keep’em. All I’ve asked for is an alternative to raiding that provides a similar experience and a path to the same rewards, just in a lower risk/lower reward manner. If you don’t want that, you don’t have to play it, just as you guys keep telling me if I don’t like raids then I don’t have to play them. The only difference is, raids are in now, so we both have the choice to play them or not, while easy mode raids are not in, so those that would choose to play them are not being given that option.
1) Development time and resources wasted.
2) Seen what it did to WoW (causes burnout, splits the community and doesn’t actually increase number of people doing normal raid).
3) Nothing to aspire to in PvE again, nothing to drive people to learn and be the best they can be.
1. Which you cannot claim will be any significant amount, or from where those resources would be taken. Every aspect of the game, including raids, is a “waste of developer resources” in the abstract. It all comes down to how many people would be pleased by the change vs. how many people it would take to implement it. You cannot for a second argue that there would not be people pleased by this change, so it comes down to whether the number of them would justify the effort involved. I believe it is highly likely that it would, you believe otherwise, ultimately ANet will have to decide that, and re-decide it over and over as situations change. I can’t envision a scenario in which easy mode raids are not inevitable.
2. You assume certain factors about how it worked in WoW, you cannot know for a fact what contributed to the effects you saw, much less how they might be applied to GW2, given that GW2 has a MUCH different community than WoW ever did. What works for WoW may not work for GW2, and what failed in WoW might be a huge success in GW2, given the different player cultures involved.
3. Nobody’s removing the hard mode raids. Anyone that aspires to them today could continue to do so. The only thing that would change is that people who do not aspire to raid, but that just want the rewards or just want the basic experience without the hardcore challenge, would have an alternative. If this thought bothers you, then you’re not defending those players in any way, you’re holding them hostage because their presence would make your life easier.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
I’ll be honest, me and some guildies started doing Sloth a few days ago and for most of us its the first raid we ever played. Atm we are mostly wiping after around 30% health and keep trying to get better.
So far its the most fun i ever had, where the content needs u to actually play at your 100% to get rewarded. For me an “easy mode” would just take all the fun out of it. For people who try to kill bosses there is the thrill of getting there and for people u can consistently clear it there are the actual rewards.
For people that just complain in forums about the game not being braindead after so many years……. i dont even know what to think. So far people have been complaining about anything that either requires time or effort, i bet nobody takes them seriously now, especially Anet.
And for people that complain about how to get people together…..seriously someone in the guild chat suggested trying out the new raid wing and those avalable just hoped on ts. Its not rocket science unless u are a completely solo player in an mmo (oh the irony).
I believe the biggest sticking point is L. Armor, not the raids themselves. It’s unfortunate that exclusive access to better gear is part of the baggage that comes along with raids, but there it is. I blame D&D.
Do you mean D&D or DDO?
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
I believe the biggest sticking point is L. Armor, not the raids themselves. It’s unfortunate that exclusive access to better gear is part of the baggage that comes along with raids, but there it is. I blame D&D.
Do you mean D&D or DDO?
I meant the PNP game. D&D had, “Kill things and take their stuff” long before MMO’s became a thing.
For people that just complain in forums about the game not being braindead after so many years……. i dont even know what to think. So far people have been complaining about anything that either requires time or effort, i bet nobody takes them seriously now, especially Anet.
I think ANet’s read what’s happened on the Blizzard forums and doesn’t want to touch it with a ten foot pole.
Nalhadia – Kaineng
So far its the most fun i ever had, where the content needs u to actually play at your 100% to get rewarded. For me an “easy mode” would just take all the fun out of it.
That’s great! Since that’s how you feel, I would recommend that if they add an easy mode, that you do not play it. It sounds like you wouldn’t enjoy it. But of course for those who would enjoy an easy mode, and do not enjoy the sort of experience you’re describing, because they are different people with different tastes, they would have that new option, so everybody wins!
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
(edited by Ohoni.6057)
So far its the most fun i ever had, where the content needs u to actually play at your 100% to get rewarded. For me an “easy mode” would just take all the fun out of it.
That’s great! since that’s how you feel, I would recommend that if they add an easy mode, that you do not play it. It sounds like you wouldn’t enjoy it. But of course for those who would enjoy an easy mode, and do not enjoy the sort of experience you’re describing, because they are different people with different tastes, they would have that new option, so everybody wins!
1) Wasted development time and resources.
2) Seen what it did in WoW (splitting community, causing burnout and did not increase numbers doing actual raids).
3) Nothing left to aspire to, people no longer need to try hard and succeed at exciting content the devs have worked really hard on (people who could be convinced to try raids will just run through easymode and never think to do it again on proper difficulty – this is exactly what happened in WoW).
4) Ohoni is just after loot.
That’s great! Since that’s how you feel, I would recommend that if they add an easy mode, that you do not play it. It sounds like you wouldn’t enjoy it. But of course for those who would enjoy an easy mode, and do not enjoy the sort of experience you’re describing, because they are different people with different tastes, they would have that new option, so everybody wins!
No, you haven’t seen these systems in action.
In difficulty moded raid content, going from easier modes to harder modes is the norm. Going into easy modes to get insights into deeper phases is the norm. But that strips out the excitement of the progression; you’re just beating a boss who you’ve already beaten before.
Nalhadia – Kaineng
1) Wasted development time and resources.
2) Seen what it did in WoW (splitting community, causing burnout and did not increase numbers doing actual raids).
3) Nothing left to aspire to, people no longer need to try hard and succeed at exciting content the devs have worked really hard on (people who could be convinced to try raids will just run through easymode and never think to do it again on proper difficulty – this is exactly what happened in WoW).
4) Ohoni is just after loot.
1-3, you’re repeating yourself, #4, not, not just after loot, but just as with any of you, loot is certainly a factor. If you want to insist that I shouldn’t care about the loot, then just agree that they should remove the loot from raids too, because apparently players shouldn’t care about the loot.
In difficulty moded raid content, going from easier modes to harder modes is the norm. Going into easy modes to get insights into deeper phases is the norm. But that strips out the excitement of the progression; you’re just beating a boss who you’ve already beaten before.
Well, as I’ve said in the past, I’m totally fine with a reasonable waiting period so that “vanguard” teams have a chance to tackle hard mode before anyone gets a shot at easy mode. There’s already been plenty of time in Spirit Vale for them to release an easy mode right now, then an easy mode of Salvation Pass when wing 3 drops, and then a wing3 one a few months after that. They can even hard lock it to player progress, so that if three months in players have still not managed to beat the boss, then they hold up releasing easy mode until they do.
If you mean that if an easy mode exists then new players will feel compelled to play it before hard mode, even if they don’t WANT to, well that’s nonsense, everyone is responsible for their own choices. If they enjoy the feeling of beating hard mode straight without practicing on easy first then that is what they should do, they shouldn’t need the devs to prevent them from doing that. It’s like a bank robber blaming the back for robbing it because they just made it so easy he couldn’t stop himself.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Well, as I’ve said in the past, I’m totally fine with a reasonable waiting period so that “vanguard” teams have a chance to tackle hard mode before anyone gets a shot at easy mode. There’s already been plenty of time in Spirit Vale for them to release an easy mode right now, then an easy mode of Salvation Pass when wing 3 drops, and then a wing3 one a few months after that. They can even hard lock it to player progress, so that if three months in players have still not managed to beat the boss, then they hold up releasing easy mode until they do.
Thing is, there already is an easy mode for those raid attempts. PUGs push those fights without any trouble because the ‘vanguard’ teams have built solid strategies which the lowest common denominator, the PUGger, can handle.
If you mean that if an easy mode exists then new players will feel compelled to play it before hard mode, even if they don’t WANT to, well that’s nonsense, everyone is responsible for their own choices. If they enjoy the feeling of beating hard mode straight without practicing on easy first then that is what they should do, they shouldn’t need the devs to prevent them from doing that. It’s like a bank robber blaming the back for robbing it because they just made it so easy he couldn’t stop himself.
No, you’re completely wrong. If someone doesn’t understand the mechanics and doesn’t do everything they can to understand the mechanics, they’re not going to be on the raid team in a competent guild.
When doing the ‘easy mode’ version of the counter is an assured way to learn the encounter, you bet your britches anyone worth their salt will be required to do it. With GW2’s content model not forcing expirations of content, this is always the case; there will always be new raid teams needing to learn the strats, so there will always be raid teams trying to get that critical edge by going into easy mode. Similarly because of the ‘always-relevant’ model, content will always become easier as raid groups learn and optimize strategies.
Like I’ve said: You don’t know about raiding because as far as I know you’ve never done it. You are making suggestions in a field completely alien to you. You aren’t looking at what’s happened in the past when other games have implemented these systems. And you’re making this error because you’ve got the GIMMEGIMMEGIMME sugar rush attitude to content, when you could relax and let the content be completely and utterly mastered in a manner identical to how Teq and TT have been.
Nalhadia – Kaineng
Thing is, there already is an easy mode for those raid attempts. PUGs push those fights without any trouble because the ‘vanguard’ teams have built solid strategies which the lowest common denominator, the PUGger, can handle.
Not easier enough for what I’m talking about here, obviously. I joined a team the other night that was tackling Gorseval and we spent three hours attempting it and didn’t get more than halfway through. I’m well aware that by raiding standards that’s not a huge disappointment, but by the standards I’m talking about that is nowhere close to adequate. The easy mode should allow a team of random classes and stat loadouts to be able to complete any of the bosses in under ten tries, assuming that they are at least trying and have a decent idea of the strategies going in. Ideally a decently coordinated team going in having watched videos in advance would beat each on the first or second time. I am aware that this is an entirely different dynamic than the raids you guys are used to, but this content is not for you, you don’t need to sign off on it, you don’t need to participate in it, it is for the people that cannot tolerate the sort of Sisyphian grind that you guys prize.
When doing the ‘easy mode’ version of the counter is an assured way to learn the encounter, you bet your britches anyone worth their salt will be required to do it.
But people can already watch the videos, that’s “cheating” in a sense. Having an easy mode available would actually be far less of a benefit to those intending to hardcore raid than being able to play through easy mode. Again, if you want to play hard mode, and you want to learn it by failing repeatedly, then nothing but yourself would stop you from doing so. If you would not enjoy learning it on easy mode and then progressing to hard, well. . . “stop hitting yourself.”
Like I’ve said: You don’t know about raiding because as far as I know you’ve never done it.
I’ve spent a total of about 6-7 hours between Vale Guardian and Gorseval, haven’t beaten either yet though. I know that’s a second in raid time, but it’s an eternity to me. Playing more would not make me enjoy it more, I assure you of that.
when you could relax and let the content be completely and utterly mastered in a manner identical to how Teq and TT have been.
Teq and TT have the advantage of including over 100 players, most of which have no vital role to play beyond “just hit things and try not to die.” any 2-3 dozen of them could be complete idiots and it would still work out ok. a 10-man raid group lacks that luxury. If anyone dies, they can respawn and rejoin the fight, whereas in raids, they stay dead until reset. And almost nobody’s individual role is vital, whereas with most raid bosses you have at least 2-3 players who if any one of them drop, there’s almost no chance of success, or if 2-3 of the rest die, there won’t be enough DPS to complete it.
And besides, today’s Teq has been nerfed from it’s most difficult state near the re-release, the same as Chak Gerant.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
I’ve spent a total of about 6-7 hours between Vale Guardian and Gorseval, haven’t beaten either yet though. I know that’s a second in raid time, but it’s an eternity to me. Playing more would not make me enjoy it more, I assure you of that.
So yeah, you have absolutely no understanding of how raids or raiding work, and you’re trying to get it changed based on your 6-7 hours of experience with no kills.
The point is not that you don’t like it or don’t enjoy it, and would enjoy it if you did it for longer. The point is that you haven’t done any research at all, you don’t understand why people like raiding, you don’t understand what systems like this have done to other games in the past. You don’t understand reward structures or the reward impetus to drive the content. You don’t understand how a raiding progression guild works.
You’re just arguing from either your feelings, which is a good thing but misguided with no experience, or you’re arguing for loot, which is pretty typical- not necessarily of you, but the sort of person that simply envies what raiders are getting and want that stuff without actually raiding.
Nalhadia – Kaineng
(edited by Sarrs.4831)
So yeah, you have absolutely no understanding of how raids or raiding work, and you’re trying to get it changed based on your 6-7 hours of experience with no kills.
I don’t have enough understanding to relate to your experience. I do have enough understanding to relate to my own experience. I don’t NEED your level of “understanding,” because that wouldn’t change anything about my position. I don’t WANT your level of “understanding,” because none of that appeals to me in any way, shape, or form. We enjoy different experiences, and that’s ok.
Keep in mind, I’ve watched clear/strategy videos for all three VG bosses and Slothazor, so I do understand the mechanics of all the fights, I just haven’t personally completed them.
The point is that you haven’t done any research at all, you don’t understand why people like raiding, you don’t understand what systems like this have done to other games in the past.
I think I do, whether you agree or not, but the point is, I don’t have to. It doesn’t matter whether or not I understand why people like raiding. I know that I do not, I know that I never will in their current form, and that’s ok. I don’t intend to change the current raids in their current forms, and those who enjoy them can KEEP enjoying them as much as they want.
I just know what a player like me would need to be able to enjoy the content as much as you enjoy the current raids, and so I’ve made suggestions to that effect. I believe those OPTIONS would allow a great many players who would never enjoy the current raids, to instead enjoy this alternate form. There is no harm to you if these people get to have fun too.
You’re just arguing from either your feelings, which is a good thing but misguided with no experience, or you’re arguing for loot, which is pretty typical- not necessarily of you, but the sort of person that simply envies what raiders are getting and want that stuff without actually raiding.
You say that like it’s a given that these people are “wrong” somehow. Why is that? You want what you want, they want what they want, how is what they want somehow more “wrong” than what you want? You’re playing how you enjoy and getting rewarded for it, why should they not also be rewarded for playing how they want? Why is your way of playing more deserving of reward than theirs? Don’t get me wrong, I think it’s ok that raids offer more rewards than other activities, I’m not pushing for completely equal rewards between easy and hard mode, I’m just saying, raiders don’t deserve greater rewards just for playing how they want to play, that’s just what the developers have chosen to gift players who enjoy raiding, and you seem to be very ungrateful for that.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
You say that like it’s a given that these people are “wrong” somehow. Why is that? You want what you want, they want what they want, how is what they want somehow more “wrong” than what you want?
For starters, my perspective includes 9 years of experience, veteran and officer positions in raid guilds, and server firsts.
I have experienced what you propose and it has not made the games that had it better. Some games have become significantly worse for their inclusion. This is not from a position of personal opinion; this is from raw subscriber numbers, content completion rates and log uploads.
You have not experienced a single raid boss kill.
You’re playing how you enjoy and getting rewarded for it, why should they not also be rewarded for playing how they want? Why is your way of playing more deserving of reward than theirs? Don’t get me wrong, I think it’s ok that raids offer more rewards than other activities, I’m not pushing for completely equal rewards between easy and hard mode,
Again, you do not understand how raids work and how the raid model in this game differs from the raid model of other games, and how this game’s raid model does not require multiple difficulty modes in the way the genre-standard ilvl progression raid model requires it. You don’t understand that since the content is in the game forever, and will remain forever relevant, easy modes providing less of a reward does not actually have any real input on whether those rewards are completion limited.
I’m just saying, raiders don’t deserve greater rewards just for playing how they want to play, that’s just what the developers have chosen to gift players who enjoy raiding,
No, they don’t deserve ‘greater’ rewards for playing how they want to play.
They deserve ‘greater’ rewards for completing challenges. You are unwilling to complete the challenges, so you do not deserve the rewards.
I put ‘greater’ in parentheses because the rewards aren’t actually greater. They just look different. But I know you don’t care.
and you seem to be very ungrateful for that.
I don’t even raid in this game bro.
Nalhadia – Kaineng
(edited by Sarrs.4831)
That has nothing to do with whether it is a “success” or not.
Constant communication and lack of complaints does make it a success.
I think the complaints have been fairly comparable to LW stuff
In reality, no they are not. Most LW releases had far more, outside the entitlement by a vocal minority of posters on here like you, there are very few (if any) other complaints. It’s just you.
If it stays a niche element that appeals to an ever shrinking portion of the players then it would be a failure, no matter how much that niche enjoys it.
If 5% of the company keeps 5% of the population happy then it’s a success. And it’s not “ever shrinking”, more like “ever growing”. Just because it doesn’t appeal to everyone, is not making it a failure. Keep things in perspective here.
Remember, just because content “does what it was intended to do,” does not mean that “what it was intended to do” was a wise call in the first place. ANet may never have intended raids to be pugged, but clearly the community has overruled them on this, for reasons that would have been obvious to ANet if they kept an ear to the community of their game.
Yes, the community is obviously weird and players want to play with total strangers, then they complain when those total strangers set their own rules. Tragedy. That’s hardly Anet’s fault if players don’t have friends in an online game.
Players typically don’t leave MMOs with a bang, they leave with a whisper, they just play less and less until they stop playing entirely. A general feeling that “they’re making the game not for players like me anymore” is far more destructive than a single annoying event.
Stopping playing if a piece of content isn’t for you is still dumb, or rather an excuse. If you like the game for what it offers to YOU, you won’t leave it when it offers something for someone else. And that general feeling has nothing to do with Raids.
Forum bugs… blah blah blah
For starters, my perspective includes 9 years of experience, veteran and officer positions in raid guilds, and server firsts.
For starters, none of that matters to the question at hand. That teaches you about people that enjoy raiding, but offers little to people who don’t. You’re like the Michael Jordan of baseball.
I have experienced what you propose and it has not made the games that had it better. Some games have become significantly worse for their inclusion. This is not from a position of personal opinion; this is from raw subscriber numbers, content completion rates and log uploads.
You have experienced similar elements in other games which are not GW2, and do not have GW2’s unique player population. GW2 is a very different game from, say, WoW, and lessoned learned in those other games are of only minor correlation to GW2.
You have not experienced a single raid boss kill.
Asked and answered, still irrelevant to anything we’ve been discussing.
Although, not technically accurate, I haven’t killed any raid bosses in this game, and I certainly don’t make it a habit to raid, but I did dabble in the DCUO raiding scene for a time and killed Black Adam a few times with them. It was a much easier raid though, as near as I could tell.
Again, you do not understand how raids work and how the raid model in this game differs from the raid model of other games, and how this game’s raid model does not require multiple difficulty modes in the way the genre-standard ilvl progression raid model requires it. You don’t understand that since the content is in the game forever, and will remain forever relevant, easy modes providing less of a reward does not actually have any real input on whether those rewards are completion limited.
You keep saying “you don’t understand, you don’t understand, you don’t understand,” and yet you do not provide any new information that I actually did not already understand. I just disagree with your conclusions as they relate to this game. Are you trying to argue that it does not matter if easy mode offers lower reward, because players on easy mode will be able to play for a year and catch up to what hard mode raiders could achieve in four months? Perhaps that much is true, but so what?
The hard mode raiders would have those eight months to feel like special snowflakes with their oh so fancy hats, and by the time the easy mode players catch up to that point, the hard mode raiders will already be onto the next loot chase. The easy mode players would never be able to completely catch up to them, although presumably they could pick and choose targets and say skip most of one raid to move on to the next if they didn’t like the skipped one’s rewards as much. Even worst case scenario they would be six months or more behind the hard mode raiders, about as far ahead as the “Legendary” PvPers will be from me in earning their Ascension wings.
They deserve ‘greater’ rewards for completing challenges.
No, they don’t. You no more “deserve” a legendary reward for clearing raids than you do for killing moas. Oh, there are plenty of gameplay reasons why it makes sense to structure rewards that way, I’m not saying they shouldn’t, I’m just pointing out that there is no inherent virtue in overcoming a cerain challenge, no challenge in the game is “naturally” tied to any particular reward. Every “complete task=>recieve reward” relationship in the game exists because someone at ANet chose to make it that way, nothing more than that. If they choose to give raiders Legendary armor, then they get legendary armor. If they choose to give them to everyone, everyone gets one. Again, I’m not suggesting any specific policy by that, I’m just tired of the entitled raider syndrome getting in the way of rational discussion. They owe you absolutely nothing for completing a raid, be grateful that they have chosen to give you a nice gift for doing so.
Constant communication and lack of complaints does make it a success.
Constant communication is a different metric entirely, and it’s a bit silly to cite “lack of complaints” in a complaint thread.
In reality, no they are not. Most LW releases had far more, outside the entitlement by a vocal minority of posters on here like you, there are very few (if any) other complaints. It’s just you.
That’s not true at all. I’m very vocal, certainly, but there have been at least a half-dozen threads on the topic this week, only one of which I started, and many more participants that are in some way dissatisfied with how raids currently function. I’m sure there’s more than that going on, but that alone is more significant than you let on.
If 5% of the company keeps 5% of the population happy then it’s a success.
Both of those figures would be dubious in this case, since we don’t know the actual number of people involved (beyond the 5-man “core” team), and we don’t know the exact size of ANet, or of how many of those people are active developers, verses support staff that would be involved in actual development. We also don’t know how many people actually enjoy the current raids.
If we did know for a fact that it was a 5%-5% ratio, then that would at least be something, but it still would depend on how satisfied that 5% would have been without raids, how satisfied they would be if raids were opened up to a larger percent of the players, and how many of the other 95% are dissatisfied with raids. If 5% enjoy raids well enough, but 2% of them would have been just as fine without them, while 10% of the remaining 95% are now less happy about the game because of the missed opportunities, then it would be a net-negative experience. Again, more data is needed to claim it as any sort of success.
Yes, the community is obviously weird and players want to play with total strangers, then they complain when those total strangers set their own rules. Tragedy. That’s hardly Anet’s fault if players don’t have friends in an online game.
It is always the developer’s fault when they don’t properly account for their players habits. Three years in they should know full well who is playing their game, and if the players prefer “drop-in/drop-out” casual grouping, then that is the experience that ANet needs to design around, either by conforming to it, or by shaping the tools to shift those desires seemlessly into the framework they intend. If they do it right, then the players would have no reason to complain at all.
Stopping playing if a piece of content isn’t for you is still dumb, or rather an excuse. I
And again, it rarely comes down to that. It’s not a player going “that raid is not for me, I QUIT!” It’s about the player’s subconsciously thinking “that raid is not for me, but they sure are focusing on it a lot. . .” and that sort of thinking nagging away at him as he goes about his activities, which feel less rewarding knowing that there’s more rewarding content that he can’t be a part of, and so when it comes time to play GW2 he feels less enthused about it, and when other things draw his attention, he’s more likely to go to them, and maybe some days he doesn’t log in, then some weeks, and eventually months go by and he hasn’t logged in at all. It won’t be that one thing that does it, and not instantly, but it will be a factor.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
(edited by Ohoni.6057)
Constant communication is a different metric entirely, and it’s a bit silly to cite “lack of complaints” in a complaint thread.
No it’s not. and you are the only one complaining anyway.
That’s not true at all. I’m very vocal, certainly, but there have been at least a half-dozen threads on the topic this week, only one of which I started, and many more participants that are in some way dissatisfied with how raids currently function. I’m sure there’s more than that going on, but that alone is more significant than you let on.
No you are the only vocal one and the only one who promotes such threads, it’s a good thing they merge any thread you post on.
Both of those figures would be dubious in this case, since we don’t know the actual number of people involved (beyond the 5-man “core” team), and we don’t know the exact size of ANet, or of how many of those people are active developers, verses support staff that would be involved in actual development. We also don’t know how many people actually enjoy the current raids.
We do know that 5% of developers. We do know the exact size of the dev team. The number of people enjoying the content is coming up by complainers.
how many of the other 95% are dissatisfied with raids.
That’s irrelevant.
It is always the developer’s fault when they don’t properly account for their players habits.
No it’s not, it’s only the community to blame here.
And again, it rarely comes down to that. It’s not a player going “that raid is not for me, I QUIT!” It’s about the player’s subconsciously thinking “that raid is not for me, but they sure are focusing on it a lot. . .”
That’s false again. The Raid is an excuse against the difficulty of HoT, the meta-centric design etc. Easier to blame Raids for everything.
No it’s not. and you are the only one complaining anyway.
Either you know that to be false or you have more reading to do before you continue this conversation.
No you are the only vocal one and the only one who promotes such threads, it’s a good thing they merge any thread you post on.
Including the several that were not written by me. Even though I’m the only voice on this issue.
. . .
We do know that 5% of developers. We do know the exact size of the dev team. The number of people enjoying the content is coming up by complainers.
I think you misunderstand what they were saying. We know the core raid team, the people that have ultimate responsibility for the raids and work on them their entire work day. I don’t believe for a second that they are the only ones who had a finger on the raid content we’ve seen so far though. They would obviously be pulling in work from a general pool to craft various aspects of the raids. If six people at the company can make these raids on their own, then we should have had both Cantha and the Crystal Desert AND SAB by now. If it is those six people alone, then they are six super-devs who’s talent could still be better spent in other projects.
We do know that 5% of developers. We do know the exact size of the dev team. The number of people enjoying the content is coming up by complainers.
how many of the other 95% are dissatisfied with raids.
That’s irrelevant.
It’s not irrelevant. If more people are made upset than are made happy then it would be a net negative element.
No it’s not, it’s only the community to blame here.
You try to run a business with that attitude, see how many days you last. Any business depends on gauging its customers and appealing to their tastes. GW2 has over the past three years cultivated a certain sort of clientele. This clientele is different than the people who frequent WoW, for example, much less “hardcore,” much less “guild” oriented (although we do still like guilds, we don’t feel they are THE thing about the game), much more focused on “drop-in/drop-out” casual hook-ups, rather than long term commitments.
It is now their job to keep those customers happy, or they might start losing them.
That’s false again. The Raid is an excuse against the difficulty of HoT, the meta-centric design etc. Easier to blame Raids for everything.
I’m still not wrong on the large point that you ignored though. Probably why you ignored it.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Including the several that were not written by me. Even though I’m the only voice on this issue.
Wouldn’t call them “several”. And for some funny reason you are the only one responding on all of them, at the same time, posting the same thing. Good thing they merge them at least.
We know the core raid team, the people that have ultimate responsibility for the raids and work on them their entire work day. I don’t believe for a second that they are the only ones who had a finger on the raid content we’ve seen so far though.
And? What if others helped the Raid team at various phases?
It’s not irrelevant. If more people are made upset than are made happy then it would be a net negative element.
No, it’s completely irrelevant. Why would someone be unhappy with something that makes someone else happy, it’s completely optional and doesn’t affect them? As I said, irrelevant.
It is now their job to keep those customers happy, or they might start losing them.
That’s why they added Raids in the first place. And PVP Leagues, and other things. To keep their customers happy. But unfortunately some parts of the playerbase don’t want others to be happy.
I’m still not wrong on the large point that you ignored though. Probably why you ignored it.
Raids alone do not force anyone to quit, period. If they do it’s just an easy excuse
It is always the developer’s fault when they don’t properly account for their players habits.
No it’s not, it’s only the community to blame here.
A community that the developer developed through the type of content they used to release and the talk they talked.
And again, it rarely comes down to that. It’s not a player going “that raid is not for me, I QUIT!” It’s about the player’s subconsciously thinking “that raid is not for me, but they sure are focusing on it a lot. . .”
That’s false again. The Raid is an excuse against the difficulty of HoT, the meta-centric design etc. Easier to blame Raids for everything.
No, it’s definitely a case of “what are they doing for me?”
I don’t find HoT difficult, nor do I have a problem with its the meta-centric nature. (I just resent the timers.)
I find HoT very light on content I care about, and the type of content it shipped with that I wanted out of an expansion was appalling and/or frustrating because it does not work well with the game’s server architecture.
And now they’re again talking the talk and putting band-aids on arterial bleeds and making me wait a ridiculous amount of time before anything else materializes. And I only have their word, which isn’t worth much anymore, that something will materialize.
A community that the developer developed through the type of content they used to release and the talk they talked.
Have you ever read any pre-release blog, or reddit post, or forum post on Raids? They targeted a specific audience, and as such they succeeded. The fact that the playerbase wants to be carried to get the rewards isn’t exactly Anet’s fault. And besides, they ARE going to make LFG better for Raids anyway, to cater to what they shouldn’t.
I find HoT very light on content I care about, and the type of content it shipped with that I wanted out of an expansion was appalling and/or frustrating because it does not work well with the game’s server architecture.
Raids are still a small sub-section of HoT content, or you are saying HoT content was made for Raiders too?
(edited by maddoctor.2738)
Why are you quoting me saying something I never said and then asking me if I’m saying something that I didn’t?
I’m saying, it’s not just a perception that they made an expansion that was very unsatisfying for many people, it’s a fact. It’s not a just perception that they’re not adding anything to remedy that feeling until 9 months after release, it’s a fact. Oh wait, no, it isn’t. We still have to cross our fingers and hope they will.
Why are you quoting me saying something I never said and then asking me if I’m saying something that I didn’t?
It’s called miss-quote
I’m saying, it’s not just a perception that they made an expansion that was very unsatisfying for many people, it’s a fact. It’s not a just perception that they’re not adding anything to remedy that feeling until 9 months after release, it’s a fact. Oh wait, no, it isn’t. We still have to cross our fingers and hope they will.
And the fact that the expansion was very unsatisfying for many people has something to do with Raids because? If the problem is with HoT timers and meta-heavy maps then that’s the problem, not Raids. Or you are saying if Raids were different (or didn’t exist) but HoT as an expansion was exactly as it is now, there would be zero complaints?
And last I checked they are going to tweak HoT maps with the April patch, so we’ll see what happens after that.
I’m saying, it’s not just a perception that they made an expansion that was very unsatisfying for many people, it’s a fact. It’s not a just perception that they’re not adding anything to remedy that feeling until 9 months after release, it’s a fact. Oh wait, no, it isn’t. We still have to cross our fingers and hope they will.
And the fact that the expansion was very unsatisfying for many people has something to do with Raids because? If the problem is with HoT timers and meta-heavy maps then that’s the problem, not Raids. Or you are saying if Raids were different (or didn’t exist) but HoT as an expansion was exactly as it is now, there would be zero complaints?
Of course there would be complaints. There were a already a great many of them before the first raid wing was released. And ANet just keeps smiling their snake-oil salesman smile, releases another raid wing and told everyone else to wait for many more months.
If raids are as great as people are claiming, that just adds an extra sting to the fact that they shipped HoT with a shamefully incompetent personal story that was obviously rushed to market, with its manic moodswing voice acting, terrible pacing and uninspired gameplay.
And last I checked they are going to tweak HoT maps with the April patch, so we’ll see what happens after that.
Tweaking is not adding content.
Tweaking is not adding content.
Part of me’s optimistic. I think they could add a bit; they’ve apparently got several items in the pipeline and I don’t see why we wouldn’t have a chance of seeing one.
They may also be dropping some of those legendaries. Whether that constitutes content or not, though, is up for debate.
Nalhadia – Kaineng
Of course there would be complaints.
And I completely agree, but Raids don’t cause the complaints alone, that’s what I was saying. They are just the easy-to-blame new thing. “Let’s blame the Raids for the lack of HoT content”
And last I checked they are going to tweak HoT maps with the April patch, so we’ll see what happens after that.
Tweaking is not adding content.
Although this is off topic, but what would you prefer:
Add 4 more maps that are more casual, without timers and so focused on metas or tweak the 4 existing ones to be more casual, depend less on timers and not be only about metas?
1) Wasted development time and resources.
2) Seen what it did in WoW (splitting community, causing burnout and did not increase numbers doing actual raids).
3) Nothing left to aspire to, people no longer need to try hard and succeed at exciting content the devs have worked really hard on (people who could be convinced to try raids will just run through easymode and never think to do it again on proper difficulty – this is exactly what happened in WoW)..
I disagree with those points.
1) What is the metric on which you say that? Why would it be wasted? My logic is the following. We know that Anet use about 5-10% of their work force to create raids and we can assume that between 5 and 15% of the players are regular raider (the second is hard to estimate). Easy mode can be a lot easier to create than the raid themselves (remove the timer, need 2 people instead of 4 in the circle, etc). They just need to minor change to the current mechanics (no new models, no new maps, no new animations, etc). So they can work on easy mode with less than 5% of their work force (or a similar number). So the only reason it would be wasted resources is if
a) Less than 5% of the players are using easy-mode
b) easy mode make migrated all the normal raiders to easy-mode, meaning that the resources of easy-mode are not wasted, but the overall resources of raid are wasted.
I don’t believe that a) is likely to happen. I believe that a well done easy mode will attrack a big portion of the old dungeon community. And the only reason for b) would be if they do a terrible job, for exemple if they make easy mode give the same reward or a similar reward to normal raid, with a fractal of the effort. If they balance the reward right and gaining the reward in easy-mode don’t chip away at you reward from normal raid (for exemple if shards gain in easy-mode are on the weekly cap as normal raid), I don’t think you can consider that a waste of ressources just because you don’t want to play it. Just like you can’t consider raid themselves a waste of ressources just because Ohoni don’t want to play it.
2) a) Splitting Community : I can do Fractal and I can do raid. The presence of Fractal don’t split the community. Even when there will be 6 wings in the game. That will still be only between 6 and 12 hours of content. For most hardcore players that still less than the total gaming time. They will have time to do easy-mode, or fractal or dungeon after their raids. As long as raid is the most profitable (since it’s the hardest) or have unique rewards people that can play raid will proritize it and will do easy mode on the side because they take very little time. While people not good enough or without the organization will simply do the easy-mode (they don’t do raid right now anyway). You can make easy mode to incentive people to play both with a good reward balance. It’s not easy mode that was a problem in WoW, it was the way it was implemented (mostly how the reward was implemented).
b) Causing burnout : What?? How can you burnout about a content? Because people wanted to do everything in the same week and with both easy and normal mode, there were just too much stuff, which half of it a repetition but more easy? I don’t know if that’s what you meant, but that is weak. I could do all dungeon path each day, it didn’t burned me out. My friends and I were doing the dungoen we wanted, when we wanted. One day during the weekend we do them all, the next day we did none, the next only 3 patch. If you burn yourself on content, either the game don’t release enough content or you did it to yourself.
c) Don’t increase number of raid : Of course it doesn’t. But it increase the number of raid a good portion of the population will be able to do. For example, It won’t increase the number of raid for you and me because we’ll continue to raid normally. But for about 30% of my guildmate, it will indeed increase the number of raid they can actually do or will enjoy to do. Adding a Season in PvP didn’t increase the mode or maps, but it doesn’t mean that it was a bad idea.
3) Nothing to push people : Again WoW screw up the reward. There was no reason to do the normal raid because they can simly run easy mode and get a similar reward with a fractal of the effort. If normal raid is where you get the cool unique stuff like the skins, ghostly infusion, etc. And that in easy mode you just get a bit of gold, then people will still want to play the normal raid if they can.
Look at fractal for exemple. Right now the level 100 have exactly the problem you talk about. They are longer, take more effort, need better composition, but they give the same reward as level 60-70. There is no reason to run level 100 so nobody does other than just once for achivement, to experience it or just for the challenge.
But pre-hot, the level 50 was the hardest and what was the most popular fracta level? Level 50. Why? Because, it was mayder than the level 20 or 30, but it gave you the best loot. Someone who was able to run level 50 would prefer to run that level. If they had limited time then they would only run level 50. If they had plenty of time, then they would run level 50, than level 40, 30 and maybe 20. If they were not good enough or not geared enough yet they would run level 20 and 30 and try to eventually be able to run 50.
Here you see, it’s the exact same situation. You have different level of difficulty, but with different reward approach. The first one (currently) push people to ignore the high difficulty option and everybody is doing the low difficulty option. The second one have a better reward balance and most people want to do the high level of difficulty, while still having people doing the low difficulty scale for diverse reason.
Easy mode can impact the game in a lot of different ways. It depend how anet implement it.
If you want a good argument against easy-mode here one. Anet have proven to us that they are horrible at balancing reward between difficutly and Fractal 100 is the best exemple and a recent one at that. You can say that you don’t trust Anet one second to implement easy-mode with a good reward balance and you fear that just everybody will migrate to easy-mode because of their mistake, ruining the current raid. You could add, let’s wait until Anet fix the current issues with raid (LFG, trinket lock behind raid, etc) and that they add new content outside of raid (WvW, new legendary, Fractal, etc) and lets see then what is the situation and if as many people will complain about raid. Maybe that easy-mode won’t be necessarily at that point.
Thaddeauz [xQCx]- QC GUILD
(edited by Thaddeus.4891)
Of course there would be complaints.
And I completely agree, but Raids don’t cause the complaints alone, that’s what I was saying. They are just the easy-to-blame new thing. “Let’s blame the Raids for the lack of HoT content”
Which is a totally valid complaint.
And last I checked they are going to tweak HoT maps with the April patch, so we’ll see what happens after that.
Tweaking is not adding content.
Although this is off topic, but what would you prefer:
Add 4 more maps that are more casual, without timers and so focused on metas or tweak the 4 existing ones to be more casual, depend less on timers and not be only about metas?
Frankly, I don’t care about the 4 maps they shipped anymore. I did what I wanted to do on them and any changes will only seem superficial now. I want new content.
If you want a good argument against easy-mode here one. Anet have proven to us that they are horrible at balancing reward between difficutly and Fractal 100 is the best exemple and a recent one at that. You can say that you don’t trust Anet one second to implement easy-mode with a good reward balance and you fear that just everybody will migrate to easy-mode because of their mistake, ruining the current raid. You could add, that raid right now have a couple of issues (LFG, trinkets lock behind raid, etc) and that if they fix those first (which they are doing right now), we will have a clearer view on the situation of raid and will be able to make a better decision then. Maybe those change will be enough to fix most of the problem people talk and that we won’t even need something like easy-mode.
I remember reading somewhere (was it on Reddit?) that they will add the new trinkets as LS3 rewards. Or was it just wishful thinking of that poster?
And yes, Anet has a horrible track record of balancing risk vs reward. In fact it’s something they’ve never done right.
Which is a totally valid complaint.
The Raid is already done for the most part, and the guilds that tested Salvation Pass didn’t do it now, they’ve already done that testing in the past, so probably they’ve already done testing for Wing 3 too. It’s not like they are working on the Raids now at the expense of anything else, the reason we don’t have the entire Raid out is because of pacing. I just hope aside from tweaks and fixes they got something new to show on April, content wise, so all this “blame the Raids for everything” goes away.
Frankly, I don’t care about the 4 maps they shipped anymore. I did what I wanted to do on them and any changes will only seem superficial now. I want new content.
Yeah, I wouldn’t want them to tweak the current maps either, but April is really close, so there is nothing anyone can do to change things at this point. Whatever they decided to do, it’s probably well underway, or nearly done, but I doubt there is any time to change it at this point. We can only hope for the best.
I believe the biggest sticking point is L. Armor, not the raids themselves. It’s unfortunate that exclusive access to better gear is part of the baggage that comes along with raids, but there it is. I blame D&D.
Do you mean D&D or DDO?
I meant the PNP game. D&D had, “Kill things and take their stuff” long before MMO’s became a thing.
yes now that you mention it, D&D did not even have a crafting system, it was purely “Kill Mob, Get Better Loot” mechanic in place.
I will say, I kinda like how GW2 breaks from that, in the sense that it has collections and ingredients as opposed to a straight up loot drop, that many other games hinge upon.
GW2 breaks from the “I got +5 Armor” and moves in the direction of “gather a Heart of a of an Ice Elemental, and the Blood of a Golem, and the Teeth of a Worm, and you will be able to craft this mighty item”
I agree that it was not the best form to require the Raid for Legendary Armor, but, that is how it is with most games, they drop some shiny to get players to do the new content.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
Raids were definitely a good idea for GW2. I don’t think Wildstar works as a good comparison since it also relied on the gear treadmill and so much else that really made it too similar to WoW.
Personally, I would have probably quit GW2 and focused primarily on WoW if not for raids. As it is now, I’m still spending a good bit of my time back in WoW (they actually have dungeons, lol), but I’m also sticking around in GW2 for PvP and raids.
Wouldn’t call them “several”. And for some funny reason you are the only one responding on all of them, at the same time, posting the same thing. Good thing they merge them at least.
I’m a chatterbox, but if you haven’t been reading all the other people posting on the topic, you should be.
And? What if others helped the Raid team at various phases?
Then it’s not “just” that handful of people, it’s a team effort that pulls manpower from other areas of the game. I’m not saying that isn’t justified, just that “oh, it’s only five people,” is an exaggeration.
No, it’s completely irrelevant. Why would someone be unhappy with something that makes someone else happy, it’s completely optional and doesn’t affect them? As I said, irrelevant.
Having content that I cannot reasonably participate in impacts me. Having rewards that I cannot reasonably acquire impacts me. Them being happy does not impact me, but not having access to activities or rewards that appeal to me does. Having development resources spent on activities that do not interest me, instead of on activities that do interest me does. Obviously I don’t expect every activity to be designed with me in mind, that’s not the point, but if the people who are pleased by raids is relatively small, and the people who would rather that all the benefits of raiding be spent elsewhere in the game is much larger, then that would be a net-negative feature.
Raids alone do not force anyone to quit, period. If they do it’s just an easy excuse
Again you miss my point and I’m tired of repeating it.
Have you ever read any pre-release blog, or reddit post, or forum post on Raids? They targeted a specific audience, and as such they succeeded. The fact that the playerbase wants to be carried to get the rewards isn’t exactly Anet’s fault
Again, it IS ANet’s fault, because they should know what their playerbase wants, and be prepared for it. If the playerbase wants to be carried, then it’s ANet’s job to make sure they feel carried. If they want to design content that does not carry those people, then it at least needs to provide them with alternatives to make them feel a part of the program. Any time the players react negatively to something, it is the developer’s fault for not accurately gauging and preparing for that reaction. You cannot place the blame on players for reacting honestly.
Raids are still a small sub-section of HoT content, or you are saying HoT content was made for Raiders too?
Most of the reaction at the time of HoT’s release was from players who did believe that HoT core content was more “raid-like” than traditional GW2 content, more appealing to the sort of “hardcore risk” players that also tend to enjoy raiding. Many of the HoT meta-events take the form of a slightly looser 150-man raid encounter.
And I completely agree, but Raids don’t cause the complaints alone, that’s what I was saying. They are just the easy-to-blame new thing. “Let’s blame the Raids for the lack of HoT content”
But you continue to use this to downplay the genuine negative impression of raids themselves.
Add 4 more maps that are more casual, without timers and so focused on metas or tweak the 4 existing ones to be more casual, depend less on timers and not be only about metas?
As an explorer, I would prefer they add four new maps, but as a realist I understand that tweaking existing content is a lot easier and less time consuming than creating new content, so I understand that this is an unrealistic comparison to make.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
I remember reading somewhere (was it on Reddit?) that they will add the new trinkets as LS3 rewards. Or was it just wishful thinking of that poster?
They have suggested something like that, yes. We don’t know, though, what trinkets specifically will be added, and in what way. For example the HoT story amulets are not a good example, as they can be obtained only once, unlike LS2 ones. Additionally, the LS3 solution has been called by Anet a halfmeasure – we know it’s not going to solve all of the problems with how restrictive obtaining new stats is.
And, of course, to get even that partial fix we’d need to wait at least half a year. Because Raids are way more important.
Sorry if i don’t seem to be willing to wait half a year before i’m even allowed to discuss a problem.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Having content that I cannot reasonably participate in impacts me.
No it doesn’t if it’s optional. And Raids are optional.
Again you miss my point and I’m tired of repeating it.
And you are missing my point. Funny how that works.
Again, it IS ANet’s fault
Again, no it’s not. They made specific content for specific people, the fact that others want to join in isn’t their fault here. It’s the amount of self-entitled and lazy people of this community that are to blame. It’s the exact same problem we had with the “zerker meta”, “omg they don’t carry me! they add requirements!” is what casuals were crying. Same solution: “make your own group”. Problems solved.
Most of the reaction at the time of HoT’s release was from players who did believe that HoT core content was more “raid-like” than traditional GW2 content, more appealing to the sort of “hardcore risk” players that also tend to enjoy raiding. Many of the HoT meta-events take the form of a slightly looser 150-man raid encounter.
And isn’t that how Orr was supposed to be? I’m sure “Raiders” play raids and dislike the open world content.
But you continue to use this to downplay the genuine negative impression of raids themselves.
There is no negative impression of raids themselves. You are making it out to be something that it’s not.
It’s obvious that you are a stuck up person that is impossible to reason with. You have an agenda, you want the rewards in your plate, you don’t want others to have content for them, and you don’t accept any other point of view. Oh and you love recycling things to keep the topic on the top of the page, it gets tiring discussing with a wall.
No it doesn’t if it’s optional. And Raids are optional.
“Optional” and “without consequence” are two entirely different things. Everything in the game is optional, that does not mean that they don’t have to be fair to players who don’t want to take part in that aspect. If you could earn the same rewards via equivalent effort in another area, then they would be both optional AND without consequences, and players could freely choose without missing out on rewards that they want, but of course you fight me tooth and nail in making that happen.
“Optional” absolves nothing.
Again, no it’s not. They made specific content for specific people, the fact that others want to join in isn’t their fault here.
Yes, it is.
It is always their fault.
Every choice they make must take ALL factors into the equation. They cannot say “we are designing this content for this small niche, we can’t be helped responsible for the reaction of people outside that niche.” That’s irrational. They have to instead come at it from the perspective of “we are designing content for this small niche, but we are also keeping the bigger picture in mind, and making sure that it doesn’t cause a negative experience for players outside of that niche, such as by providing exceptional reward to this one area that cannot be achieved elsewhere.”
Any time they make a decision that is focused on a niche, but fails to account for the rest of the audience’s reactions, they fully deserve whatever criticism comes their way (within the bounds of polite conversation).
It’s the amount of self-entitled and lazy people of this community that are to blame. It’s the exact same problem we had with the “zerker meta”, “omg they don’t carry me! they add requirements!” is what casuals were crying. Same solution: “make your own group”.
And again, the customers aren’t the problem. The customers are the ones that ANet sought out with their promotion, the ones that they cultivated with the launch gameplay, and refined over the last three years. They made the customers, not the other way around. So now they have to deal with the customers they have, not necessarily the customers you would want them to have. If they want to change the customers, they would have to do so in a way that the customers wouldn’t even notice, like minor and unannounced difficulty tweaks that nobody would actually react to, but which would lead them to becoming stronger players, or a better LFG that automatically sets up balanced parties, rather than allowing players to accidentally end up in no-hope parties.
But if the players are upset about something, it’s because of something the developers did wrong, either in the design, the implementation, or the messaging. They players are just seeking the best play experience they can get, and they ARE entitled to do that.
And isn’t that how Orr was supposed to be? I’m sure “Raiders” play raids and dislike the open world content.
How Orr was “supposed” to be is completely irrelevant, how it actually turned out is all that matters, and for three years it was NOT that thing, the players developed to not WANT that style of play, so when HoT delivered on it, the reaction was about as predictable as a textbook science experiment.
There is no negative impression of raids themselves. You are making it out to be something that it’s not.
You might want to read this thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Do-you-think-Raids-in-GW2-were-a-bad-idea/
The people in there might disagree with you on that.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
(edited by Ohoni.6057)
If you could earn the same rewards via equivalent effort in another area, then they would be both optional AND without consequences, and players could freely choose without missing out on rewards that they want, but of course you fight me tooth and nail in making that happen.
I’m not even going to re-start that discussion, we’ve done it ages ago and really don’t go into that again. Discussed to death already.
Any time they make a decision that is focused on a niche, but fails to account for the rest of the audience’s reactions, they fully deserve whatever criticism comes their way (within the bounds of polite conversation).
Well they are making changes to how LFG tool works so that’s something.
But if the players are upset about something, it’s because of something the developers did wrong, either in the design, the implementation, or the messaging. They players are just seeking the best play experience they can get, and they ARE entitled to do that.
Don’t leave the players out of it, they as much responsible for anything as the developers are. And what the developers did “wrong” for one player is “right” for another player. Can’t please everyone.
How Orr was “supposed” to be is completely irrelevant, how it actually turned out is all that matters, and for three years it was NOT that thing, the players developed to not WANT that style of play, so when HoT delivered on it, the reaction was about as predictable as a textbook science experiment.
They made LS1 content that looked like the old Orr, then they removed it. I always said that removing LS1 content had a negative impact on HoT, if they hadn’t removed it, we wouldn’t have all this rage against HoT because LS1 content was also HARD, TIMED, and META-centric. Just like HoT. But people have sort memories and all they remember was their lovely SW chest farm.
You might want to read this thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Do-you-think-Raids-in-GW2-were-a-bad-idea/
The people in there might disagree with you on that.
I don’t see anything against Raids themselves in there.
Well they are making changes to how LFG tool works so that’s something.
It is, but it’s not a panacea. The LFG tool alone will do nothing whatsoever to address many of the concerns raised about raids in their current form. It will only improve things for the niche of a niche of players who mostly like how raids are now, but can’t figure out how to use the existing LFG tool to find exactly the group they need.
Don’t leave the players out of it, they as much responsible for anything as the developers are.
No they aren’t, because they lack any actual control. The most they can do is express feedback as to what they want or do not want, but ultimately ANet decided what goes in and what doesn’t. Because they hold onto the power to make the final call, they also bare full responsibility for the outcome.
And what the developers did “wrong” for one player is “right” for another player. Can’t please everyone.
No, but you always have to consider everyone, and balance good with bad across the entire playerbase. You can never, as you keep insisting they should, “design content only for a small niche and everyone outside that niche just needs to deal with it.” Any time they choose to address a small niche, they have to do so in a way that provides minimal disruption to those outside that niche. The raids failed at this, so far at least.
I don’t see anything against Raids themselves in there.
Then I’m afraid there’s nothing I can do to help you.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”