Guild Wars 2

too much focus on exclusion, not enough focus on just getting people to the type of group they will be comfortable with.

getting newbs not to join meta parties is not going to increase the overall usership of dungeons.

eh well whatevs, maybe its a lost cause.

phys.7689:

too much focus on exclusion, not enough focus on just getting people to the type of group they will be comfortable with.

getting newbs not to join meta parties is not going to increase the overall usership of dungeons.

eh well whatevs, maybe its a lost cause.

I mainly see 2 claims on why people don’t do dungeons.

Either it’s a toxic environment. Or that PVE is dumb and people just exploit it all…

We all know the second one and it’s responses so I’m not even going to touch it.

But the first, exclusivity would allow the "elitsists’ to remove themselves from the general populous, isn’t that a good thing? The only logical reason i can come up with why someone would be opposed to it is that they want to be carried by these elitists, which is a kitten poor excuse and makes them just as toxic if not more so IMO.

As far as trying to bring new people in, we have 2 stickies at the top of this subforum, one for NOOB and one for ARES, both guilds that specialize in teaching people. ARES is more of a traditional guild with the expectation that you rep and be part of the community (great community) where NOOB is more of a list of people to ask for help as I understand it (it’s where I met some of the people who taught me and I now play with).

We’re trying to help, we really are, I don’t think any LFG tool setup could do more really. I learned long ago that if you want to help someone, let them take the first step of initiative and ask. Trying to help those that don’t want it simply frustrates you and kittenes them off.

That’s all not even mentioning the teaching guides and strat fact collecting that some guilds and people like Wethospu do with gw2dungeons and many more.

Jerus.4350:

phys.7689:

too much focus on exclusion, not enough focus on just getting people to the type of group they will be comfortable with.

getting newbs not to join meta parties is not going to increase the overall usership of dungeons.

eh well whatevs, maybe its a lost cause.

I mainly see 2 claims on why people don’t do dungeons.

Either it’s a toxic environment. Or that PVE is dumb and people just exploit it all…

We all know the second one and it’s responses so I’m not even going to touch it.

But the first, exclusivity would allow the "elitsists’ to remove themselves from the general populous, isn’t that a good thing? The only logical reason i can come up with why someone would be opposed to it is that they want to be carried by these elitists, which is a kitten poor excuse and makes them just as toxic if not more so IMO.

As far as trying to bring new people in, we have 2 stickies at the top of this subforum, one for NOOB and one for ARES, both guilds that specialize in teaching people. ARES is more of a traditional guild with the expectation that you rep and be part of the community (great community) where NOOB is more of a list of people to ask for help as I understand it (it’s where I met some of the people who taught me and I now play with).

We’re trying to help, we really are, I don’t think any LFG tool setup could do more really. I learned long ago that if you want to help someone, let them take the first step of initiative and ask. Trying to help those that don’t want it simply frustrates you and kittenes them off.

That’s all not even mentioning the teaching guides and strat fact collecting that some guilds and people like Wethospu do with gw2dungeons and many more.

they already are seperated by and large.
The people who think its toxic, are probably not going to join a berserker meta speedrun path 2 party.
It looks complicated, they sound harsh. The guys joining meta parties, know they may get kicked, they dont mind possible getting insulted, they are basically just trying to get over.

The guy who sneaks into the movie theater doesnt represent the people who think movie theaters suck.

Im not really opposed to the filter choices presented other than them being a waste of resources, and not really helping either side much.

As far as the teaching and the guides, thats cool, but its still inaccessible. 2 guilds across 24? servers.
People are generally only going to reach the point they want to learn after experiencing it as is for awhile.

Think of it like a basketball game you dont take your brother to play basketball and hand him 3 books on the fundamentals of basketball, and make him play with the guys who just got kicked out the big boy court for not being on their level.

first you just give him a ball and some people to play with.
after awhile he asks you to teach him some moves, or for that book, but its only when he is ready and has developed an interest

a lot of people never get to develop that interest.

Servers only matter for WvW now, yay megaservers…

Nothing is going to perfectly ease people into dungeons other than them taking the initiative to either study up or find someone willing to teach them.

It’s simply not possible to create this perfect tutorial lesson in game, story modes are a great attempt, but apparently even those are too troublesome and still have people kicking others in it.

Rising Dusk.2408:

I think the only kind of filters that make sense are objective filters, not things where people classify themselves. If they want to do that sort of thing, they can say it in the LFG text itself. The problem with subjective or self-assigned filters is that they can be falsified. A newer player can claim to be advanced and get into trouble in groups and result in the same bad experience for everyone as we have now. We want the system to be robust at keeping players playing with exactly who they want to play with.

The thing about filtering systems is that sometimes the things you don’t want just get through but what it does do is decrease that amount. I mean kitten even Heisenberg with his one hundred and one purifying steps(filtering) for making meth can only go so far. No matter how good a filtering system is, it does not guarantee 100% good experience. Imo all it has to do is to be able to good enough most of the time. I think the filter system will definitely eliminate a lot of toxic players for the beginner levels, which I feel is the most important aspect. If beginners are having a good time, there is a good chance of getting fresh blood into the dungeon community. As for advanced, that is where most of the toxic players will be imo. In league most bronze v think they are gold and that the reason they stay in bronze v is because of their teammates lol(bad skilled players thinking they are good and blaming others). and in League its called Elo Hell because of how toxic those people are.

All the talk about filtering, why not just add the ability to link builds like they had in GW1. Was more than enough to get the party composition you wanted.

Funkinmofo.9635:

All the talk about filtering, why not just add the ability to link builds like they had in GW1. Was more than enough to get the party composition you wanted.

Because people would all of a sudden be accountable and unable to leech off of the “strong and capable looking groups”.

It’s not about “playing like we want” or we would’ve already gotten these “toxic and divisive measures”.

Funkinmofo.9635:

All the talk about filtering, why not just add the ability to link builds like they had in GW1. Was more than enough to get the party composition you wanted.

because contrary to popular belief there is quite a bit of build diversity. Even within the “meta”

Changing builds on the fly during a run is something that many of us do often.

I realize that , its common sense to adjust utilities and traits based on certain encounters in various dungeon paths.
But having something, anything to help form groups would be better than nothing at all. I don’t see them adding in filters as it would be too exclusionary in their minds and firmly against their play how i want philosophy.

Zenith.7301:

DonQuack.9025:

Zenith.7301:

This is not new to GW2. If you played GW1 and went to Domain of Anguish or PvP’d, you would have noticed Guild Wars contains some of the nastiest instanced dungeon communities around.

DOA? Thats your example? psshhh.

Lightbringer rank raging is worse than anything this game has had. People comment on zerker cheese here, they haven’t seen the imbagon crap.

In gw1 pugs were almost generally playing so horrible and kittened tactics that you wouldn’t even think of pugging.

Dwg in fow, ursan in uw. It doesn’t really surprise me there have been paragons in doa.

uwsc in gw1 required these summoning stones for parties and very dedicated roles. These summoning stones are dropped upon completion of uw. Granted these summoning stones can be bought but overall it was not that bad. I mainly played pvp in gw1 so I didn’t really have time to get those stones so i bought like 150 of them from people, which then allowed me to join “good” pugs. I never knew speed clearing existed in gw1 so I can’t tell how much slower it was compared to an organized group. Again I was able to carry my own weight in uwsc as there were alot of videos on youtube to show what tera sins should do in a pug group. I wonder if anybody has required 250 pristine relics for their fotm pug groups :-\

LFG “fotm level 50. Link your stack of pristine relics on join.”

Lets face it, the only solution is segregation of the community. Anet tries to clump people together who all have different mindsets and goals. From my experience, this never ends well no matter which game it is. Anet needs to provide better tools for people who want to find other like minded individuals to play with instead of trying to force people to play together.

EcoRI.9273:

uwsc in gw1 required these summoning stones for parties and very dedicated roles. These summoning stones are dropped upon completion of uw. Granted these summoning stones can be bought but overall it was not that bad. I mainly played pvp in gw1 so I didn’t really have time to get those stones so i bought like 150 of them from people, which then allowed me to join “good” pugs. I never knew speed clearing existed in gw1 so I can’t tell how much slower it was compared to an organized group. Again I was able to carry my own weight in uwsc as there were alot of videos on youtube to show what tera sins should do in a pug group. I wonder if anybody has required 250 pristine relics for their fotm pug groups :-\

Good pug runs took about 2-3 times as long as good casual guild runs.

the solution is to not join those no life parties who need 5k ap for a simple AC p1

Iris Ng.9845:

No social life unless GWAMM x5…

guild leader of LOD had/has 11 GWAMM, iirc

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

Iris Ng.9845:

No social life unless GWAMM x5…

guild leader of LOD had/has 11 GWAMM, iirc

Intense social lyfe I see there

Lifestealer.4910:

Lets face it, the only solution is segregation of the community. Anet tries to clump people together who all have different mindsets and goals. From my experience, this never ends well no matter which game it is. Anet needs to provide better tools for people who want to find other like minded individuals to play with instead of trying to force people to play together.

Segregation tools already exist. They’re called guilds.

I mean, how harder can it get to find like minded individuals than putting in bold a message “PRO SPEED RUN. ZERKER WARRIOR/GUARD/ELE/THIEF/MESMER ONLY. PING GEAR ON JOIN OR KICK.” when you advertise your party.

It’s harder than you think to find like-minded zerkers…
Many indivudals will join a LFG looking for a free ride and not read the lfg.

Eg TS3 Read all before joining :GLF <> Exp Meta path <>- Type “Pi to 4 DP” or “Dr Fang” or kick.

We ask for an ele, mes or war – they come on inside with a lvl 65 Necro/Guadd and zone into the dungeon = insta kick. They repeat this two or three times – and bug the LFG so we cannot edit or relist it.

Just means we end up completing the content 3 man.

I believe a class filter is necessary – to help ensure the LFG stops breaking and increasing the chances of actually getting what you would like to fill the group and complete your team composition that your group is trying to run with.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

Iris Ng.9845:

No social life unless GWAMM x5…

guild leader of LOD had/has 11 GWAMM, iirc

Eris hasn’t been guild leader of LOD since March 2014.

Enko.6123:

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

Iris Ng.9845:

No social life unless GWAMM x5…

guild leader of LOD had/has 11 GWAMM, iirc

Eris hasn’t been guild leader of LOD since March 2014.

take a look at what you just quoted

take a look at

“had”

???

maha.7902:

Enko.6123:

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

Iris Ng.9845:

No social life unless GWAMM x5…

guild leader of LOD had/has 11 GWAMM, iirc

Eris hasn’t been guild leader of LOD since March 2014.

take a look at what you just quoted

take a look at

“had”

???

Following “had” is “/has 11 GWAMM”

o_o?

I was just letting cookie know that she hasn’t been guild leader since if he put a “had/has”, he’s unsure of it.

BTW, back then she also had 26 map completions in gw2. Don’t know how many she has now

TPMN.1483:

It’s harder than you think to find like-minded zerkers…
Many indivudals will join a LFG looking for a free ride and not read the lfg.

Eg TS3 Read all before joining :GLF <> Exp Meta path <>- Type “Pi to 4 DP” or “Dr Fang” or kick.

We ask for an ele, mes or war – they come on inside with a lvl 65 Necro/Guadd and zone into the dungeon = insta kick. They repeat this two or three times – and bug the LFG so we cannot edit or relist it.

Just means we end up completing the content 3 man.

I believe a class filter is necessary – to help ensure the LFG stops breaking and increasing the chances of actually getting what you would like to fill the group and complete your team composition that your group is trying to run with.

Or maybe, you know, campaign for the undesirable classes to be made better instead. You know, make rangers, necromancers, and mesmers useful to stack just like warriors or thieves instead of just bringing one for some niche utility.

Zenith.7301:

TPMN.1483:

It’s harder than you think to find like-minded zerkers…
Many indivudals will join a LFG looking for a free ride and not read the lfg.

Eg TS3 Read all before joining :GLF <> Exp Meta path <>- Type “Pi to 4 DP” or “Dr Fang” or kick.

We ask for an ele, mes or war – they come on inside with a lvl 65 Necro/Guadd and zone into the dungeon = insta kick. They repeat this two or three times – and bug the LFG so we cannot edit or relist it.

Just means we end up completing the content 3 man.

I believe a class filter is necessary – to help ensure the LFG stops breaking and increasing the chances of actually getting what you would like to fill the group and complete your team composition that your group is trying to run with.

Or maybe, you know, campaign for the undesirable classes to be made better instead. You know, make rangers, necromancers, and mesmers useful to stack just like warriors or thieves instead of just bringing one for some niche utility.

Making undesirable classes better is fine.
However that doesn’t mean they will be suitable for the team composition of a given party.

Zenith.7301:

Or maybe, you know, campaign for the undesirable classes to be made better instead. You know, make rangers, necromancers, and mesmers useful to stack just like warriors or thieves instead of just bringing one for some niche utility.

Why would you stack warriors or thieves for utility? And why would you stack warriors at all?

lol

EcoRI.9273:

The thing about filtering systems is that sometimes the things you don’t want just get through but what it does do is decrease that amount. I mean kitten even Heisenberg with his one hundred and one purifying steps(filtering) for making meth can only go so far. No matter how good a filtering system is, it does not guarantee 100% good experience. Imo all it has to do is to be able to good enough most of the time. I think the filter system will definitely eliminate a lot of toxic players for the beginner levels, which I feel is the most important aspect. If beginners are having a good time, there is a good chance of getting fresh blood into the dungeon community. As for advanced, that is where most of the toxic players will be imo. In league most bronze v think they are gold and that the reason they stay in bronze v is because of their teammates lol(bad skilled players thinking they are good and blaming others). and in League its called Elo Hell because of how toxic those people are.

All fair points. I’ll add self-classifying filters to the proposal and see where it goes. What are we thinking in terms of skill-based filters:

• Beginner
• Intermediate
• Advanced

Do we think Intermediate makes sense? Just the bounding two or do we like the middle rank?

I’d say go for a middle rank. Otherwise people who have ran the dungeon twice will be self proclaimed experts ( though that’ll happen to some extent even if there is 10 options).

I think you’ll get a lot of people who should be in “beginner” or “intermediate” self classifying themselves as “advanced” to get into any run mind you.

I’d much prefer a class filter so the lfg doesn’t suppress ( and cause us to waste time relisting over and over during the run) after a bunch of fools who can’t read join.

Asked for an ele last night, went through: 1 ranger twice, 2 guardian twice, 2 warriors ( one of them twice). 3 of them hurled abuse at us, and one claimed to be reporting us for kicking him at the end of the run ( the guy didn’t even enter the instance in the few moments he was in the party).

So.. Class filter > (meaningless) self proclaimed skill level filter.

Edit:
also self proclaimed skill filters are entirely subjective.

I’d class myself as advanced for most dungeons, and intermediate for arah. However a speedclear guild like DnT or LOD might classify me as intermediate for most, and beginner for arah.

Entirely subjective. Given how the learning curve is so gentle people are going to think they are advanced, when they are barely intermediate. Due to this, I don’t think it will really solve anything at all.

Shiren.9532:

Zenith.7301:

TPMN.1483:

It’s harder than you think to find like-minded zerkers…
Many indivudals will join a LFG looking for a free ride and not read the lfg.

Eg TS3 Read all before joining :GLF <> Exp Meta path <>- Type “Pi to 4 DP” or “Dr Fang” or kick.

We ask for an ele, mes or war – they come on inside with a lvl 65 Necro/Guadd and zone into the dungeon = insta kick. They repeat this two or three times – and bug the LFG so we cannot edit or relist it.

Just means we end up completing the content 3 man.

I believe a class filter is necessary – to help ensure the LFG stops breaking and increasing the chances of actually getting what you would like to fill the group and complete your team composition that your group is trying to run with.

Or maybe, you know, campaign for the undesirable classes to be made better instead. You know, make rangers, necromancers, and mesmers useful to stack just like warriors or thieves instead of just bringing one for some niche utility.

Is the dungeon difficult in this game really so great there needs to be a big distinction between rangers, necromancers, mesmers and the “preferred” professions? When I think of all the ways to improve my daily dungeon time, excluding entire professions which have viably fast DPS builds is not one of them.

I’m all for encouraging the designers to bring professions in line, but tbh I don’t think there is a huge difference between some of the meta professions and some of the non-meta profession. The biggest difference seems to be player attitude, not tangible differences in performance.

We’ve been over one year since the last dungeon update (I believe it was Fractured – so approaching 18 months now) and the word dungeon wasn’t once mentioned in relation to HoT nor was there a single dungeon in Living World season two (compared to Aetherblade Retreat, Molten Facility and Aether Path). Maybe it’s time the dungeon community stop looking at ways of excluding other players (“no rangers, no necros etc”) and instead tried to foster a more populous dungeon community, we all might see ArenaNet take more of an interest in dungeons.

If you remember back at launch, AC was considered hard (AC story was considered hard). Many of us have come a long way since then, but I suspect most did not. Stop creating artificial barriers to exclude players from dungeons you enjoy playing – it’s only going to hurt you in the long run if ArenaNet doesn’t see enough player interest and participation in dungeons and instead of putting a team on a new dungeon, they put that team on another open world zerg train because the dungeon players were too elite to welcome the ranger, necros or Knight’s wearers.

I believe players have to make an investment in getting better at dungeons (and that means not running soldiers ASAP) but if we want ArenaNet to make content for us, we need to make sure that “us” is as many people as it can be without compromising the dungeon experience.

Its about the composition.
About who brings what traits.

Like rending strikes + weak spot + sundering strikes + mace warrior for vuln.

PS warrior vs staff + sf & LH ele for might.

mesmer vs guardian: reflects vs stability vs condi remove vs aegis vs time warp.
That one being quite subjective and down to team strength and potential shortest time vs smoothness of run.

If you want a second ele to run SF + LH for swirling winds + blasts for might, a ranger joining doesn’t help. At best it’d force the ele to retrait to remove weak spot (due to ranger vuln) forces the warrior to retrait to PS. Loses swirling winds and blinds on thunderclap as well as a lot of pre-fight might stacking capabilities. Not to mention things like soothing mist and heal on water attune, which can be some very nice pressure easing. You lose blinds from thunderclap – a thief may have to adjust build ( possibly changing to s/p for additional blinds to compensate.

What if you have an SF + LH ele and wanted a staff ele?
Then the SF ele has to retait also.
Sure you may bring frost spirit/spotter.

Question is, why should 2 ( or more) other people have to change builds, to accommodate you? Why cant you go ele and fit into the otherwise ready to go party?

This is where understanding team composition comes into play. Many people do not understand it, or why it is important I have found.

Also, The “artificial barriers” to dungeon running is created by those unwilling to adapt to the content. Those who become abusive and/or yell “toxic elitists!” the moment they are asked to use a better set of traits or weapon so as to be useful to the party.

There are plenty of dungeon guilds willing to train people. Many don’t want to learn, just free gold while watching tv on another screen ( for example).
Many who can train, refuse to, due to the abuse they have received in the past.

The artificial barriers are created soley in the minds of those who are excluding themselves from group content.

edit:
I do, and always will kick pugs who cannot read an lfg listing.
Why? – Because if they can’t read lfg, what chance have I got of them reading party chat and being a useful member of my party?

This “artificial barrier” is created by people who are unable or unwilling to read. Not by me, or my party members.

Shiren.9532:

Is the dungeon difficult in this game really so great there needs to be a big distinction between rangers, necromancers, mesmers and the “preferred” professions? When I think of all the ways to improve my daily dungeon time, excluding entire professions which have viably fast DPS builds is not one of them.

I’m all for encouraging the designers to bring professions in line, but tbh I don’t think there is a huge difference between some of the meta professions and some of the non-meta profession. The biggest difference seems to be player attitude, not tangible differences in performance.

We’ve been over one year since the last dungeon update (I believe it was Fractured – so approaching 18 months now) and the word dungeon wasn’t once mentioned in relation to HoT nor was there a single dungeon in Living World season two (compared to Aetherblade Retreat, Molten Facility and Aether Path). Maybe it’s time the dungeon community stop looking at ways of excluding other players (“no rangers, no necros etc”) and instead tried to foster a more populous dungeon community, we all might see ArenaNet take more of an interest in dungeons.

If you remember back at launch, AC was considered hard (AC story was considered hard). Many of us have come a long way since then, but I suspect most did not. Stop creating artificial barriers to exclude players from dungeons you enjoy playing – it’s only going to hurt you in the long run if ArenaNet doesn’t see enough player interest and participation in dungeons and instead of putting a team on a new dungeon, they put that team on another open world zerg train because the dungeon players were too elite to welcome the ranger, necros or Knight’s wearers.

I believe players have to make an investment in getting better at dungeons (and that means not running soldiers ASAP) but if we want ArenaNet to make content for us, we need to make sure that “us” is as many people as it can be without compromising the dungeon experience.

Filtering the community isn’t going to do anything. Players already have tools to do that with lfg (“zerker only”, “no rangers”, “80s only”, “6k+ AP”). I’ve joined “full zerk, exp only, 6k AP” groups only to find someone who clearly had never done the path before. How would a self filtering system work any different? Most of the filters are stupid anyway.

You’re absolutely right.

Most of the dungeons are easy enough for any team comp, if each class is being played properly. Ranger and Necro are generally unwanted because experienced runners have noticed a trend where these professions are frequently chosen by unskilled players.

Unfortunately, ANet have already turned their back on the dungeon community and disbanded the team.

Rising Dusk.2408:

EcoRI.9273:

The thing about filtering systems is that sometimes the things you don’t want just get through but what it does do is decrease that amount. I mean kitten even Heisenberg with his one hundred and one purifying steps(filtering) for making meth can only go so far. No matter how good a filtering system is, it does not guarantee 100% good experience. Imo all it has to do is to be able to good enough most of the time. I think the filter system will definitely eliminate a lot of toxic players for the beginner levels, which I feel is the most important aspect. If beginners are having a good time, there is a good chance of getting fresh blood into the dungeon community. As for advanced, that is where most of the toxic players will be imo. In league most bronze v think they are gold and that the reason they stay in bronze v is because of their teammates lol(bad skilled players thinking they are good and blaming others). and in League its called Elo Hell because of how toxic those people are.

All fair points. I’ll add self-classifying filters to the proposal and see where it goes. What are we thinking in terms of skill-based filters:

• Beginner
• Intermediate
• Advanced

Do we think Intermediate makes sense? Just the bounding two or do we like the middle rank?

dont make the filter skill based, make intent based.

• time attack- users use optimized parties and specialized builds and aim for record times
• dungeon completion – lets get it done
• Learning learning or teaching the ropes

this way you group people with similar intents, rather than how they classify themselves.

phys.7689:

Rising Dusk.2408:

EcoRI.9273:

The thing about filtering systems is that sometimes the things you don’t want just get through but what it does do is decrease that amount. I mean kitten even Heisenberg with his one hundred and one purifying steps(filtering) for making meth can only go so far. No matter how good a filtering system is, it does not guarantee 100% good experience. Imo all it has to do is to be able to good enough most of the time. I think the filter system will definitely eliminate a lot of toxic players for the beginner levels, which I feel is the most important aspect. If beginners are having a good time, there is a good chance of getting fresh blood into the dungeon community. As for advanced, that is where most of the toxic players will be imo. In league most bronze v think they are gold and that the reason they stay in bronze v is because of their teammates lol(bad skilled players thinking they are good and blaming others). and in League its called Elo Hell because of how toxic those people are.

All fair points. I’ll add self-classifying filters to the proposal and see where it goes. What are we thinking in terms of skill-based filters:

• Beginner
• Intermediate
• Advanced

Do we think Intermediate makes sense? Just the bounding two or do we like the middle rank?

dont make the filter skill based, make intent based.

• time attack- users use optimized parties and specialized builds and aim for record times
• dungeon completion – lets get it done
• Learning learning or teaching the ropes

this way you group people with similar intents, rather than how they classify themselves.

+1
This classification makes far more sense, and is far more meaningful.

Edit:
I’d tweak the description of time attack though. People may not be aiming for “record runs” but do want a fast run. Record runs often take practice attempts and lucky rng from bosses

Maybe something like:
“for players who use optimized builds and team compositions, and are aim to complete as quickly as they can”

Artemis Thuras.8795:

Also, The “artificial barriers” to dungeon running is created by those unwilling to adapt to the content. Those who become abusive and/or yell “toxic elitists!” the moment they are asked to use a better set of traits or weapon so as to be useful to the party.

There are plenty of dungeon guilds willing to train people. Many don’t want to learn, just free gold while watching tv on another screen ( for example).
Many who can train, refuse to, due to the abuse they have received in the past.

The artificial barriers are created soley in the minds of those who are excluding themselves from group content.

edit:
I do, and always will kick pugs who cannot read an lfg listing.
Why? – Because if they can’t read lfg, what chance have I got of them reading party chat and being a useful member of my party?

This “artificial barrier” is created by people who are unable or unwilling to read. Not by me, or my party members.

no, you are wrong.

the barrier is, that some people expect people to be playing a time attack meta, and others expect people to be playing a beat the dungeon meta. And of these two groups, some people get highly upset when the other doesnt see it his way.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

phys.7689:

Rising Dusk.2408:

EcoRI.9273:

The thing about filtering systems is that sometimes the things you don’t want just get through but what it does do is decrease that amount. I mean kitten even Heisenberg with his one hundred and one purifying steps(filtering) for making meth can only go so far. No matter how good a filtering system is, it does not guarantee 100% good experience. Imo all it has to do is to be able to good enough most of the time. I think the filter system will definitely eliminate a lot of toxic players for the beginner levels, which I feel is the most important aspect. If beginners are having a good time, there is a good chance of getting fresh blood into the dungeon community. As for advanced, that is where most of the toxic players will be imo. In league most bronze v think they are gold and that the reason they stay in bronze v is because of their teammates lol(bad skilled players thinking they are good and blaming others). and in League its called Elo Hell because of how toxic those people are.

All fair points. I’ll add self-classifying filters to the proposal and see where it goes. What are we thinking in terms of skill-based filters:

• Beginner
• Intermediate
• Advanced

Do we think Intermediate makes sense? Just the bounding two or do we like the middle rank?

dont make the filter skill based, make intent based.

• time attack- users use optimized parties and specialized builds and aim for record times
• dungeon completion – lets get it done
• Learning learning or teaching the ropes

this way you group people with similar intents, rather than how they classify themselves.

+1
This classification makes far more sense, and is far more meaningful.

Edit:
I’d tweak the description of time attack though. People may not be aiming for “record runs” but do want a fast run. Record runs often take practice attempts and lucky rng from bosses

Maybe something like:
“for players who use optimized builds and team compositions, and are aim to complete as quickly as they can”

i kept the description focused on highly elite times, because its better to get the people on the low end of the time attack, then to have people selecting it thinking it means they just want to do it fast, it has to be clear that the playstyle of the dungeon is going to be different, and people are going to build themselves, and play with time being the main focus, not individuality, or personal preference

you want it to seem offputting, and like there is going to be pressure to be perfect, because there is, even if they dont achieve record times, they are broadly aiming for the same thing

phys.7689:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

Also, The “artificial barriers” to dungeon running is created by those unwilling to adapt to the content. Those who become abusive and/or yell “toxic elitists!” the moment they are asked to use a better set of traits or weapon so as to be useful to the party.

There are plenty of dungeon guilds willing to train people. Many don’t want to learn, just free gold while watching tv on another screen ( for example).
Many who can train, refuse to, due to the abuse they have received in the past.

The artificial barriers are created soley in the minds of those who are excluding themselves from group content.

edit:
I do, and always will kick pugs who cannot read an lfg listing.
Why? – Because if they can’t read lfg, what chance have I got of them reading party chat and being a useful member of my party?

This “artificial barrier” is created by people who are unable or unwilling to read. Not by me, or my party members.

no, you are wrong.

the barrier is, that some people expect people to be playing a time attack meta, and others expect people to be playing a beat the dungeon meta. And of these two groups, some people get highly upset when the other doesnt see it his way.

lol.
no, I am quite correct in saying that many players have zero interest in working as a team. Zero interest in getting better at the game (something which sounds completely preposterous to me but w/e).
Anybody should now by now, the internet has kittens on it. You simply have to find those who aren’t.

“artificial barriers” are solely in the minds of those excluding themselves.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

phys.7689:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

Also, The “artificial barriers” to dungeon running is created by those unwilling to adapt to the content. Those who become abusive and/or yell “toxic elitists!” the moment they are asked to use a better set of traits or weapon so as to be useful to the party.

There are plenty of dungeon guilds willing to train people. Many don’t want to learn, just free gold while watching tv on another screen ( for example).
Many who can train, refuse to, due to the abuse they have received in the past.

The artificial barriers are created soley in the minds of those who are excluding themselves from group content.

edit:
I do, and always will kick pugs who cannot read an lfg listing.
Why? – Because if they can’t read lfg, what chance have I got of them reading party chat and being a useful member of my party?

This “artificial barrier” is created by people who are unable or unwilling to read. Not by me, or my party members.

no, you are wrong.

the barrier is, that some people expect people to be playing a time attack meta, and others expect people to be playing a beat the dungeon meta. And of these two groups, some people get highly upset when the other doesnt see it his way.

lol.
no, I am quite correct in saying that many players have zero interest in working as a team. Zero interest in getting better at the game (something which sounds completely preposterous to me but w/e).
Anybody should now by now, the internet has kittens on it. You simply have to find those who aren’t.

“artificial barriers” are solely in the minds of those excluding themselves.

the barrier is peoples standardized expectations for every player.
Its a very real barrier if people will kick you for not playing the way they want you to.

not everyone wants to play a time attacks version of the game. Some people see beating a dungeon as annihilating it (vanquishing) Others see it as doing the most challenging content in the dungeon. Some see it as doing the most fun things. Some see it as figuring out how to play their own build as effeciently as possible.

the people who are left still playing dungeons are the primarily the people who have accepted this meta, dont know about the meta, or are seeking to get over using the meta/meta players.

there is a ton of people who left because the barrier to entry is to play that meta

On the topic of filters:

Speed Clear – for highly coordinated efficient runs.
Completion – anything goes.
Learning – for learning or teaching how to do the dungeon.

How does this sound? I’d agree the first option it needs to be brutally obvious it’s a different style of play to the second. Third is obvious what to expect imo.
However record runs are different to a typical speed clear tour. The “meta” is different again. However that really doesn’t need an LFG category, that is purely the domain of guilds and teamspeak. pug and record run just doesn’t mix.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

On the topic of filters:

Speed Clear – for highly coordinated efficient runs.
Completion – anything goes.
Learning – for learning or teaching how to do the dungeon.

How does this sound? I’d agree the first option it needs to be brutally obvious it’s a different style of play to the second. Third is obvious what to expect imo.
However record runs are different to a typical speed clear tour. The “meta” is different again. However that really doesn’t need an LFG category, that is purely the domain of guilds and teamspeak. pug and record run just doesn’t mix.

speed clear just sounds like they will clear it fast to a layman.
Come up with a new word if you dont like time attack, but it has to seem like its not just about being fast.

phys.7689:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

On the topic of filters:

Speed Clear – for highly coordinated efficient runs.
Completion – anything goes.
Learning – for learning or teaching how to do the dungeon.

How does this sound? I’d agree the first option it needs to be brutally obvious it’s a different style of play to the second. Third is obvious what to expect imo.
However record runs are different to a typical speed clear tour. The “meta” is different again. However that really doesn’t need an LFG category, that is purely the domain of guilds and teamspeak. pug and record run just doesn’t mix.

speed clear just sounds like they will clear it fast to a layman.
Come up with a new word if you dont like time attack, but it has to seem like its not just about being fast.

But it is about being fast. Thats the point..

Artemis Thuras.8795:

phys.7689:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

On the topic of filters:

Speed Clear – for highly coordinated efficient runs.
Completion – anything goes.
Learning – for learning or teaching how to do the dungeon.

How does this sound? I’d agree the first option it needs to be brutally obvious it’s a different style of play to the second. Third is obvious what to expect imo.
However record runs are different to a typical speed clear tour. The “meta” is different again. However that really doesn’t need an LFG category, that is purely the domain of guilds and teamspeak. pug and record run just doesn’t mix.

speed clear just sounds like they will clear it fast to a layman.
Come up with a new word if you dont like time attack, but it has to seem like its not just about being fast.

But it is about being fast. Thats the point..

look at it from the eyes of someone who is unfamiliar with the current meta.

The drop down options are asking them what they want to do.

1)do you want to be fast (this is what speed clear sounds like to them)
2)do you want to complete the dungeon
3)do you want to learn

a lot of people who dont want to time attack, or play the general meta will figure, hey i want to do this fast.

you dont want that to happen. you want people to think, hey this is a specialized mode, and i may not want to do what it takes to take part in it. Which words you pick are key here in setting up user expectations.

you want the user to expect that he is not going to be playing the game in a normal way.

the actual meta for a speed clear is not equivalent to doing a dungeon normally, but fast, even though the words may lead people to believe that.

If you join the speed clear group expecting to be asked to alter your build. Its quite simple.

Would be quite easy to add a tooltip description to each category.

There are ( as far as i can see) 4 categories of dungeon running
1) record running
2) speed clearing
3) completion
4) learning the ropes.

Record running NEVER uses pugs. IF you think this category pugs, then you belong in the 4th category.
Category 4 is pretty obvious – go here if you are unsure/new/returning. Alternatively if you want to teach the aforementioned players.

Category 2 and 3 are the ones who need segregating.
Those who want to speed clear.
and those who just want to complete.

Problem lies in: those who want to complete, want to sponge off those who are speed clearing. Those who just want to complete – without coordinating party composition should join category 3.

The problem you are stating is thus: People want to enjoy having a fast run without coordinating or balancing party composition or getting into teamspeak.
This right here is why people keep getting booted from parties.
With the lfg options it will be straightforward:
Join the completion groups, or make your own.

You’re pretty much calling people too stupid to figure this out, which is quite insulting.
There is still going to be trolls.These trolls can join “exp zerk ele only” groups with a level necro in dire gear, nothing we can do about that.

However reasonable players will grasp this quickly and make use of it.
IF we can improve the experience for reasonable players, and help them find like minded players, then the filter would be a success. Any reasonable player should see the speed clear and its tooltip, and expect they may have to change build.
If you get kicked for refusing to do so, it is much more clear you only have yourself to blame. You should have joined or formed a “Completion” group not a “Speed Clear” group.
If someone kicks you from an anything goes group over build or playstyle – yeah, QQ. They were being dirtbags ( which is also borderline LFG abuse and reportable..).
a tooltip for each category with a short description would help considerably.

So again:
Record Run – for breaking completion time records
Speed Clear – for highly coordinated meta runs.
Completion – anything goes.
Learning – for learning or teaching how to do the dungeon.

Added meta to speed clear, as that may help with confusion.
This is no way should replace the text for each LFG.

Dave.2536:

Zenith.7301:

Or maybe, you know, campaign for the undesirable classes to be made better instead. You know, make rangers, necromancers, and mesmers useful to stack just like warriors or thieves instead of just bringing one for some niche utility.

Why would you stack warriors or thieves for utility? And why would you stack warriors at all?

lol

Way to read the post. You stack them for the damage, and you can bring 2 warriors for banner and vulnerability stacking if you’re gonna sit one warrior with banners.

I didn’t say you bring warriors and thieves for stacked utility. NICHE UTILITY APPLIES TO MESMER/RANGER/ETC. That is, spirits don’t stack effects so having more than one ranger is useless as spotter doesn’t stack either (the only 2 reasons you bring a ranger) and mesmer has heavy diminishing returns on reflect/time warp/portals as you only need so many and don’t want to kitten your damage because mesmer damage is trash.

Feel free to replace warrior or thief with conjure ele if you want, doesn’t change my point as I made sure to include ele/warrior/thief/guardian as the classes people don’t mind stacking because those are classes with far less diminishing returns.

And well, necro, everybody knows.

Zenith.7301:

Dave.2536:

Zenith.7301:

Or maybe, you know, campaign for the undesirable classes to be made better instead. You know, make rangers, necromancers, and mesmers useful to stack just like warriors or thieves instead of just bringing one for some niche utility.

Why would you stack warriors or thieves for utility? And why would you stack warriors at all?

lol

Way to read the post. You stack them for the damage, and you can bring 2 warriors for banner and vulnerability stacking if you’re gonna sit one warrior with banners.

I didn’t say you bring warriors and thieves for stacked utility. NICHE UTILITY APPLIES TO MESMER/RANGER/ETC. That is, spirits don’t stack effects so having more than one ranger is useless as spotter doesn’t stack either (the only 2 reasons you bring a ranger) and mesmer has heavy diminishing returns on reflect/time warp/portals as you only need so many and don’t want to kitten your damage because mesmer damage is trash.

Feel free to replace warrior or thief with conjure ele if you want, doesn’t change my point as I made sure to include ele/warrior/thief/guardian as the classes people don’t mind stacking because those are classes with far less diminishing returns.

And well, necro, everybody knows.

Warrior is a support class. You don’t bring multiple for damage.

Zenith.7301:

Way to read the post. You stack them for the damage, and you can bring 2 warriors for banner and vulnerability stacking if you’re gonna sit one warrior with banners.

There is no reason whatsoever to bring more than 1 warrior in a run, expect if you don’t care about efficiency.

I can see why “anything goes” pugs would want to be able to for example rangers, tweak their build to do something else.
I can only think of a couple of trait setups for rangers that would be particularly useful in a dungeon.
Spotter and frost spirit being pretty central – otherwise ranger dps isn’t worth taking over an ele or thief. A second ranger would be quite handicapped due to overlap of role.

Mesmer – not so much, at least they can drop the reflect spec and take a dps spec that’ll work well. Necros? ey.. I haven’t touched mine outside of spvp in months.

The thing is – that is much more class balance than dungeon related. Not to mention we have specializations on the way, and revenant, and we have 5 character slots ( minimum).

Jahroots.6791:

You’re absolutely right.

Most of the dungeons are easy enough for any team comp, if each class is being played properly. Ranger and Necro are generally unwanted because experienced runners have noticed a trend where these professions are frequently chosen by unskilled players.

Unfortunately, ANet have already turned their back on the dungeon community and disbanded the team.

This is not true.

Ranger mainhand sword for example, is well known for pushing bosses out of position. Pets add another element to the aggro table that can not only screw up boss positioning, but trigger abilities you don’t want triggered because the pet does not understand the concept of stacking on a boss or abusing hitboxes.

And quite frankly try meleeing and reliably dodging archdiviner and mob autoattacks with the ranger mainhand sword autoattack. Even if you have the autoattack chain disabled, there’s an obvious delay in the animation lock that makes you very vulnerable.

You have entire encounters designed with lethal aoe that makes bringing anything but a drake a liability, and even then because pets don’t baseline cleave above 3 targets, the other classes by default with their melee weapons bring BETTER CLEAVE, and that’s fact. Since a large part of runs is trash clears, especially in fractals, rangers being a poor cleave class due to a terrible cleave mechanic, and the fact their aoe sucks and they don’t pack as much utility as say an elementalist or guardian or warrior, leaves them out of the equation.

The same scenario applies to a necromancer. Look at their mainhand dagger damage, it’s basically an inferior version of the warrior’s mainhand axe and it only hits 2 targets while the warrior has no such targeting restrictions, and the necromancer comes with the handicap of no access to vigor so he relies solely on sigils of energy.

I’m getting tired of this crap where people pretend classes are interchangeable. They’re not. Biases exist for a reason and it’s not skill based. I play my ranger and complete lv50 fractals on a daily basis. And it’s undeniable that when I switch to my other toons, a guardian or ele or thief or warrior gets the job done not only better, but for far less effort and hassle.

The pet design alone for rangers in this game is horrendous, a pet that doesn’t scale with gear, has poor pathing, doesn’t avoid lethal attacks, draws aggro randomly and displaces mobs from intended positioning, comprises a percentage of the ranger’s damage but has limited cleaving capacity.

Then you have spirits which are basically banners that can be killed by PvE mechanics and that you can’t move around unless you take a master trait on a vitality/boon duration line that drags spirits into melee range to be slaughtered by aoe.

Pets are a horrible mechanic and it’s not coincidence that the classes with pet skills and trait lines dedicated to them end up suffering.

P.S. And while we’re talking about unskilled people gravitating toward classes, let’s not forget the warrior and elemental mage archetype are some of the most populated archetypes in any game, and GW2 is no exception so don’t pretend like elementalist or warrior as professions somehow have some secret appeal for elite players while avoiding the attention of mediocre ones.

Thaddeus.4891:

Zenith.7301:

Way to read the post. You stack them for the damage, and you can bring 2 warriors for banner and vulnerability stacking if you’re gonna sit one warrior with banners.

There is no reason whatsoever to bring more than 1 warrior in a run, expect if you don’t care about efficiency.

What part of “replace a warrior with conjure ele if you want” did you not get, or is this the part where you argue for bringing a necromancer or ranger in place for a warrior.

Because if so I’m not going to bother with you. Maybe for explorable dungeons a spotter ranger can ever be more efficient than a awarrior, but in fractal 50 all that efficiency is lost as there are several bosses a ranger can’t melee with consistency or efficiency.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

If you join the speed clear group expecting to be asked to alter your build. Its quite simple.

Would be quite easy to add a tooltip description to each category.

There are ( as far as i can see) 4 categories of dungeon running
1) record running
2) speed clearing
3) completion
4) learning the ropes.

Record running NEVER uses pugs. IF you think this category pugs, then you belong in the 4th category.
Category 4 is pretty obvious – go here if you are unsure/new/returning. Alternatively if you want to teach the aforementioned players.

Category 2 and 3 are the ones who need segregating.
Those who want to speed clear.
and those who just want to complete.

Problem lies in: those who want to complete, want to sponge off those who are speed clearing. Those who just want to complete – without coordinating party composition should join category 3.

The problem you are stating is thus: People want to enjoy having a fast run without coordinating or balancing party composition or getting into teamspeak.
This right here is why people keep getting booted from parties.
With the lfg options it will be straightforward:
Join the completion groups, or make your own.

You’re pretty much calling people too stupid to figure this out, which is quite insulting.
There is still going to be trolls.These trolls can join “exp zerk ele only” groups with a level necro in dire gear, nothing we can do about that.

However reasonable players will grasp this quickly and make use of it.
IF we can improve the experience for reasonable players, and help them find like minded players, then the filter would be a success. Any reasonable player should see the speed clear and its tooltip, and expect they may have to change build.
If you get kicked for refusing to do so, it is much more clear you only have yourself to blame. You should have joined or formed a “Completion” group not a “Speed Clear” group.
If someone kicks you from an anything goes group over build or playstyle – yeah, QQ. They were being dirtbags ( which is also borderline LFG abuse and reportable..).
a tooltip for each category with a short description would help considerably.

So again:
Record Run – for breaking completion time records
Speed Clear – for highly coordinated meta runs.
Completion – anything goes.
Learning – for learning or teaching how to do the dungeon.

Added meta to speed clear, as that may help with confusion.
This is no way should replace the text for each LFG.

you could use speed clear if you want in the description, but i am telling you, it will increase your chances of getting legitimate misses. Its not about intelligent or not intelligent, its about how people interpret words and preconceived notions.

Speed clear can mean something to people who are unfamiliar with your terminology.

if you have checkouts counters marked

Speed checkout
normal checkout
special checkout

people will go to the speed checkout when they want to check out fast, not realizing that this checkout may require you to have a cart that automatically tabulates everything in your cart, and accept credit card payments only.

thus making the line very slow, and annoying all people who know what they are supposed to do.

If it was named
CartCreditSpeed checkout people would only go in there if they already knew what the hell CartCreditSpeed is.

they wouldnt assume they knew what it meant.

As to the main problem being people leeching, no thats not really the main problem. Thats actually a very small problem, sure we can try to take care of it, but its actually a very small issue when it comes to the overall health and accessibility of dungeons. I can assure you, the vast majority of people not attempting dungeons, is not because newbs keep joining their speedruns and trying to leech.

phys.7689:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

If you join the speed clear group expecting to be asked to alter your build. Its quite simple.

Would be quite easy to add a tooltip description to each category.

There are ( as far as i can see) 4 categories of dungeon running
1) record running
2) speed clearing
3) completion
4) learning the ropes.

Record running NEVER uses pugs. IF you think this category pugs, then you belong in the 4th category.
Category 4 is pretty obvious – go here if you are unsure/new/returning. Alternatively if you want to teach the aforementioned players.

Category 2 and 3 are the ones who need segregating.
Those who want to speed clear.
and those who just want to complete.

Problem lies in: those who want to complete, want to sponge off those who are speed clearing. Those who just want to complete – without coordinating party composition should join category 3.

The problem you are stating is thus: People want to enjoy having a fast run without coordinating or balancing party composition or getting into teamspeak.
This right here is why people keep getting booted from parties.
With the lfg options it will be straightforward:
Join the completion groups, or make your own.

You’re pretty much calling people too stupid to figure this out, which is quite insulting.
There is still going to be trolls.These trolls can join “exp zerk ele only” groups with a level necro in dire gear, nothing we can do about that.

However reasonable players will grasp this quickly and make use of it.
IF we can improve the experience for reasonable players, and help them find like minded players, then the filter would be a success. Any reasonable player should see the speed clear and its tooltip, and expect they may have to change build.
If you get kicked for refusing to do so, it is much more clear you only have yourself to blame. You should have joined or formed a “Completion” group not a “Speed Clear” group.
If someone kicks you from an anything goes group over build or playstyle – yeah, QQ. They were being dirtbags ( which is also borderline LFG abuse and reportable..).
a tooltip for each category with a short description would help considerably.

So again:
Record Run – for breaking completion time records
Speed Clear – for highly coordinated meta runs.
Completion – anything goes.
Learning – for learning or teaching how to do the dungeon.

Added meta to speed clear, as that may help with confusion.
This is no way should replace the text for each LFG.

you could use speed clear if you want in the description, but i am telling you, it will increase your chances of getting legitimate misses. Its not about intelligent or not intelligent, its about how people interpret words and preconceived notions.

Speed clear can mean something to people who are unfamiliar with your terminology.

if you have checkouts counters marked

Speed checkout
normal checkout
special checkout

people will go to the speed checkout when they want to check out fast, not realizing that this checkout may require you to have a cart that automatically tabulates everything in your cart, and accept credit card payments only.

thus making the line very slow, and annoying all people who know what they are supposed to do.

If it was named
CartCreditSpeed checkout people would only go in there if they already knew what the hell CartCreditSpeed is.

they wouldnt assume they knew what it meant.

As to the main problem being people leeching, no thats not really the main problem. Thats actually a very small problem, sure we can try to take care of it, but its actually a very small issue when it comes to the overall health and accessibility of dungeons. I can assure you, the vast majority of people not attempting dungeons, is not because newbs keep joining their speedruns and trying to leech.

Then people learn the first time they make a mistake, and go to the right checkout.
In future they go to the right checkout, and they tell their friends which checkout they should go to.

Much the same thing will happen with this filter. People might make a mistake. kitten happens. People learn from their mistakes, or they are too stupid to learn from their mistakes and keep making them until they get suppressed from the lfg.

SpeedClear is not an unclear phrase. It is very commonly used. Naming it something vague, or using some made up term will simply make it harder for people to understand what it is. That is not a good thing.

The fact remains, you are calling people too stupid to figure out which type of group they should join. I find that rude. I’m sure many others will too.

Zenith.7301:

phys.7689:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

If you join the speed clear group expecting to be asked to alter your build. Its quite simple.

Would be quite easy to add a tooltip description to each category.

There are ( as far as i can see) 4 categories of dungeon running
1) record running
2) speed clearing
3) completion
4) learning the ropes.

Record running NEVER uses pugs. IF you think this category pugs, then you belong in the 4th category.
Category 4 is pretty obvious – go here if you are unsure/new/returning. Alternatively if you want to teach the aforementioned players.

Category 2 and 3 are the ones who need segregating.
Those who want to speed clear.
and those who just want to complete.

Problem lies in: those who want to complete, want to sponge off those who are speed clearing. Those who just want to complete – without coordinating party composition should join category 3.

The problem you are stating is thus: People want to enjoy having a fast run without coordinating or balancing party composition or getting into teamspeak.
This right here is why people keep getting booted from parties.
With the lfg options it will be straightforward:
Join the completion groups, or make your own.

You’re pretty much calling people too stupid to figure this out, which is quite insulting.
There is still going to be trolls.These trolls can join “exp zerk ele only” groups with a level necro in dire gear, nothing we can do about that.

However reasonable players will grasp this quickly and make use of it.
IF we can improve the experience for reasonable players, and help them find like minded players, then the filter would be a success. Any reasonable player should see the speed clear and its tooltip, and expect they may have to change build.
If you get kicked for refusing to do so, it is much more clear you only have yourself to blame. You should have joined or formed a “Completion” group not a “Speed Clear” group.
If someone kicks you from an anything goes group over build or playstyle – yeah, QQ. They were being dirtbags ( which is also borderline LFG abuse and reportable..).
a tooltip for each category with a short description would help considerably.

So again:
Record Run – for breaking completion time records
Speed Clear – for highly coordinated meta runs.
Completion – anything goes.
Learning – for learning or teaching how to do the dungeon.

Added meta to speed clear, as that may help with confusion.
This is no way should replace the text for each LFG.

you could use speed clear if you want in the description, but i am telling you, it will increase your chances of getting legitimate misses. Its not about intelligent or not intelligent, its about how people interpret words and preconceived notions.

Speed clear can mean something to people who are unfamiliar with your terminology.

if you have checkouts counters marked

Speed checkout
normal checkout
special checkout

people will go to the speed checkout when they want to check out fast, not realizing that this checkout may require you to have a cart that automatically tabulates everything in your cart, and accept credit card payments only.

thus making the line very slow, and annoying all people who know what they are supposed to do.

If it was named
CartCreditSpeed checkout people would only go in there if they already knew what the hell CartCreditSpeed is.

they wouldnt assume they knew what it meant.

As to the main problem being people leeching, no thats not really the main problem. Thats actually a very small problem, sure we can try to take care of it, but its actually a very small issue when it comes to the overall health and accessibility of dungeons. I can assure you, the vast majority of people not attempting dungeons, is not because newbs keep joining their speedruns and trying to leech.

Yeah, it’s probably because doing open world farm trains or playing the auction house will net you far more rewards than any speed run will ever get you.

This game doesn’t reward you for actually playing the game or doing challenging content.

The lv50 fractal rewards including rings you don’t need (considering if you have 70+ AR are you already have all accessories+10 agony at least infused on each slot) and the awful gold reward for time spent is testament to a reward scheme that’s perverted.

this is true, but even when these things didnt net you more, or at least people didnt know about it as much, people did these other things because these other things are highly accessible.

the basic dungeon running needs to be more accessible