Guild Wars 2

Harper.4173:

DogCompany.1062:

Harper.4173:

Dungeons were designed to be medium-hard to complete ON release. Not 1+ years after.
You want harder content? Go do fractals at level 30+.

Dungeons are designed in such a way that NO MATTER HOW BAD YOU ARE you will still complete it if you keep trying. That means that a VERY GOOD GROUP will breeze right on through. Regardless of gear – but zerker will make it the fastest.

I am familiar with high level Fractals and my experience tells me that Fractals should be the standard of any Dungeon. In short, shouldn’t Arena Net consider creating, or reconfiguring, more difficult Dungeons in order to avoid such repetitions?

No. Because dungeons are for farming at the moment. Make them more difficult and the majority of players who run them will quit doing them.

And many people who quit doing them would come back again because they would actually be fun and engaging.

Wharrgarbl stop bringing up D2 as an example for a superior system.

There is no wiggleroom in D2 because you sacrifice literally nothing.

The only customization comes from how rich you are.

Nick.6972:

I don’t like running Zerker gear, but I want to finish the tediously long boss fights as fast as it’s possible.

Those Boses probably have tens of millions HP. It’s ridiculous.
Not to mention bosses are static, doesn’t move, just soak up the damage and use badly telegraphed one shot mechanics. (Can you actually see the incoming one shots through the skill effect cluster*?"

No I don’t

Wharrgarbl.9263:

GW2 is “full zerk/scholar GG” which imho makes it boring and uninspired (it doesnt help that there’s 1 or 2 builds per class that are optimal and the rest is crap).

Maybe if they capped crit chance / crit damage and gave power diminishing returns the game would be better, so the best dps would be a mix of cavaliers / valk / zerker / zealot instead. But i guess i ask too much.

I appreciate your comment. I agree that “full zerk…” has made Dungeons “boring and uninspired.” I definitely feel the same and maybe, in the future, we can see a lot more competitive Dungeons. Another person posted that Dungeons were used for farming these days, which is understandable since a lot of players are familiar with each path. I, too, may be thinking beyond what Arena Net has played, but I do believe they have plenty of ideas on making Guild Wars 2 more competitive in the future. Again, appreciate your response to this post.

Fenrir.3609:

DogCompany.1062:

Fenrir.3609:

DogCompany.1062:

Based on your statement, Guild Wars 2 has created every class as a Hybrid-Type to where each and every character has it’s own support capabilities. Yet, with all the flexibilities of each class, only one profession has found to be useful regardless of the stats designed for several variations of professions that are not used by, I would assume, a large majority of players. Now, why do you think that is?

What?

Basically, Guild Wars 2 created classes to where they are flexible to any profession they want to choose from, Healer/Tank/Berserker/etc, but non-Berserker-Type Gear/Items have been shunned and are rarely used in the game. That’s what I’m saying, in short.

In short:

A. Zerker groups do use support.
B. More tanky specs are used extensively throughout the game.
C. Going back to the dark days of dedicated tanks and no damage heal spammers is not a good idea.
D. Complaining that a no damage facetank isn’t part of the speed run meta is a bit daft.

I appreciate your response, but it seems people are getting the wrong impression defining “support.” I would define “support” as non-combative assistance to combative classes. In Guild Wars 2, you can argue that, for example, Wall of Reflection, is used as both offense and defense because it does block projectiles and reflects the projectiles back, but regardless of the damage, I consider it indirect damage and a “support” utility. I also see that you have experience of this “Holy Trinity” that players have mentioned throughout this post and that your highly against the diverse profession gameplay, which his understandable. Personally, I would prefer such diverse participation in order to expose the full affect of each profession presented by Arena Net. I would find it unfortunate, with all the stats available, only a few are used. Furthermore, I am not a fan of PvP, nor WvW. I play them occasionally, but I prefer to be more involved in boss fights or roaming around the world and participating in random events. Lastly, would you prefer to continue the repetitions within Dungeons and avoid any enhancements within the PvE World?

spoj.9672:

Black Box.9312:

spoj.9672:

The problem comes that in regular dungeons its too easy to keep pretty much the optimal dps stuff and make it work.

+1 on this. It’s the fact that full zerker is too easy that makes every other setup so obsolete in comparison. I don’t mind it being the most efficient way to do things; but it just also needs to be the most punishing way to do things to compensate.

I should clarify. Its too easy. But its still easier to tank in clerics. And its only made easy because experienced players can make it work with utilities rather than being force to change to another weapon.

I appreciate your response on this subject. I agree that if Arena Net has the ability to make Dungeons more challenging, I would be on board with their changes. Such as the reason of this post, I would like to see a multitude of professions involved in Dungeons instead of one professions “to rule them all.” Again, I appreciate your comments.

I’m sorry but having a dedicated healer or tank is in no way diverse. That’s in fact the opposite. That’s pigeon holing.

DogCompany.1062:

spoj.9672:

Black Box.9312:

spoj.9672:

The problem comes that in regular dungeons its too easy to keep pretty much the optimal dps stuff and make it work.

+1 on this. It’s the fact that full zerker is too easy that makes every other setup so obsolete in comparison. I don’t mind it being the most efficient way to do things; but it just also needs to be the most punishing way to do things to compensate.

I should clarify. Its too easy. But its still easier to tank in clerics. And its only made easy because experienced players can make it work with utilities rather than being force to change to another weapon.

I appreciate your response on this subject. I agree that if Arena Net has the ability to make Dungeons more challenging, I would be on board with their changes. Such as the reason of this post, I would like to see a multitude of professions involved in Dungeons instead of one professions “to rule them all.” Again, I appreciate your comments.

There is no profession that rules them all. The only non viable profession (for the most part, there are exceptions) is necro.

I remember the day when a simple AC was difficult for the average player, let alone on zerk gear. New people have it easy, they use already thought out tactics to faceroll the content and then complain to everyone it’s too easy. Well don’t use them, play them as “intended” on cleric gear and have fun.

Point is, skill of the player base evolves. Just like new instances and raids in other games become more difficult the longer the game is out, the new dungeons become more difficult here. You can see the shift in difficulty already in fractals and maybe TA aether. So yes, the old content has become faceroll farm content, is that bad? I don’t think it is, it’s just that Anet is ridiculously slow with bringing out new and more difficult dungeons/fractals (if they ever will make more…).

However, if you think those new dungeons will have a necessary dedicated healer, you’re in for a lot more qq’ing. There will once again be a minority of players who can and will use zerk gear there. Why? As tons of people before me said, support isn’t gear based. CC isn’t gear based. That’s how gw2 works. Now tell me, why exactly is it that having people with different gear makes dungeons more interesting? Those are passive stats, why care about some passive stats? lol

Thaddeus.4891:

Black Box.9312:

The point I was trying to make is that it shouldn’t be easy, even for the most experienced players, to run a full glass party. Perhaps ‘impossible’ might be a bit too far on the other side of the spectrum, but it should never be easier to run with 5 zerkers than with 1 or more non zerkers in a party.

Well it not easier to run 5 full DPS compare to non full DPS party. At some point my guild had 2 new member and we did Arah with them. They were two friend using their WvW build in PvE. One was tanky and the other was an ’’healer’’. They simply tank Lupicus, while the rest of us DPS him. It was funny to watch as i can’t last that long against Lupicus attack. The fight was freaking long, but it was the easier Lupi run i had in a long time. In one pug, I had a guy that tank Alpha that didn’t dodge or die once. You can see Arah Cleric run with the guys disabling the dodge button. Its easier without zerker. Zerker can go seriously wrong if you do too many mistake or if you don’t have the skill to back it up. But Zerker is way faster and if you know what you are doing, it become easy enough.

I appreciate adding your experiences to the post and I can relate to your encounters with Lupicus. I enjoy fighting him very much. I would definitely like to see more combinations, such as your party, to where one Tank-Type would do his best to battle the damage of Lupicus, while the party would damage Lupicus while he is distracted. I for one would play the Tank-Type role, until players only asked for those who have the ability to Melee Lupicus. Around that time, people started selling Paths (Arah), in which I found that quite humorous. Regardless, I do appreciate your comments and would definitely like to see more parties, similar in your experience, out there in the PvE world.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

DogCompany.1062:

spoj.9672:

Black Box.9312:

spoj.9672:

The problem comes that in regular dungeons its too easy to keep pretty much the optimal dps stuff and make it work.

+1 on this. It’s the fact that full zerker is too easy that makes every other setup so obsolete in comparison. I don’t mind it being the most efficient way to do things; but it just also needs to be the most punishing way to do things to compensate.

I should clarify. Its too easy. But its still easier to tank in clerics. And its only made easy because experienced players can make it work with utilities rather than being force to change to another weapon.

I appreciate your response on this subject. I agree that if Arena Net has the ability to make Dungeons more challenging, I would be on board with their changes. Such as the reason of this post, I would like to see a multitude of professions involved in Dungeons instead of one professions “to rule them all.” Again, I appreciate your comments.

There is no profession that rules them all. The only non viable profession (for the most part, there are exceptions) is necro.

I think he means “Spec” or “Build” when he says “Profession”.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

I’m sorry but having a dedicated healer or tank is in no way diverse. That’s in fact the opposite. That’s pigeon holing.

I’m not sure what “pigeon holing” is, but neither would “All Berserker-Type classes only” isn’t diverse either. Having a Healer/Tank/Berserker-Type would be considered diverse, but I understand. Most people would find that troublesome to gather individual professions in order to complete Dungeons, but that’s the reason of this topic. To debate and discuss ways to allow all Types of professions involved in Dungeons, not a single profession.

Charming Rogue.8071:

Master Yi.6129:

Simple answer: most enemies do so much damage it makes defensive stats mostly useless. It is a “kill them fast or get killed” situation. There is also a thing called “dodging” that exists in the game, where a timely dodge nullifies all damage that would otherwise kill you.

This pretty much answers the thread.

If that’s the answer, would you like to see more challenges within Dungeons or leave them as is?

DogCompany.1062:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

I’m sorry but having a dedicated healer or tank is in no way diverse. That’s in fact the opposite. That’s pigeon holing.

I’m not sure what “pigeon holing” is, but neither would “All Berserker-Type classes only” isn’t diverse either. Having a Healer/Tank/Berserker-Type would be considered diverse, but I understand. Most people would find that troublesome to gather individual professions in order to complete Dungeons, but that’s the reason of this topic. To debate and discuss ways to allow all Types of professions involved in Dungeons, not a single profession.

profession = class (as in warrior, guardian, etc) not DPS, tank, healer.

Guild Wars 2 is a game that wanted to do something different than the classical trinity. If you wanted a tank, there would need to be some kind of reliable way of gaining aggro (most likely through skills). See anything like that? What about a healer that can heal you more than you can yourself? If you want a trinity then GW2 is not the game for you.

hendo.1940:

In GW2 you add defense and utility through traits and skills. The guardian meta builds aren’t balls deep in DPS, they actually sacrifice some for utility.

Oh thank you i didnt knew that. I was just running 30/30/10 with all sigils.

hendo.1940:

i also don’t see how having to combine different stat gear for optimum efficiency makes things any different, you’re reaching the same goal, it’s just your gear will have different prefixes.

Its called itemization and it works this way: the game gives you options to gear up and dps (sometimes having differee t gear sets giving you about the same dps!) Instead of having a dps set (thats better than the other dps set aka assassins).

It clearly seems you never played an rpg game with a bit more mechanical depth than mmos.

I mean, pure berserker isn’t even superior to pure assassins in lots of cases. They are usually about as effective as (in party runs or on self-buffing professions) and especially for reflects assassins is definitely better than berserkers.

Guys… Stop

There are no real DPS checks in this game.
Set dragon timers on 2 minutes instead of 12, that would be a dps test, even though still doable.

Well, killing lupicus without phase change was a dps check, not a global, but a selfmade one.

DogCompany.1062:

If that’s the answer, would you like to see more challenges within Dungeons or leave them as is?

Personally I would love to have more challenging content, but never should it be related to Holy Trinity. I’ve played other mmos, the kind which has the Holy Trinity nd never have I ever felt so bored with a game. There is basically no action in them. One person just builds on maximum damage mitigation through gear, one goes maximum dps and one just checks health bars. I see no fun in this kind of game, for it encourages you to be passive nd to rely on a system to compensate your own skill.

You were talking about RPG at some point, and the kind of RPG where I had the most fun ever were the Castlevania games. You’re supposed to swap skills in between fights, you have to be reactive, learn the bosses tells and move constantly, not just wait and mash your buttons in a given order. An MMO based example of passiveness is the conception of macros. In GW2 you don’t play with macros, because you need to swap weapons, to use the right skill at the right moment, not just program the “heal party member X” chain nor the “fireball-firewall-burning ground-whatever” chain.

This game is considered worldwide to be the best action MMO there is, thanks to the dodge, the self-reliance of every profession (as in the fact tht you don’t have to expect your team-mates to do what you can’t, for you can do everything) and the no CD between AA gameplay. When you compare that with trinity-based games where you stand like a pillar watching your macros do the work while you browse the internet on a second screen, how can you want the latter option ?

My point is : if you want the game to be challenging, keep the good and go forward : take the active gameplay that encourages skill (and zerker, for a good zerker is skilled because there is little room for error) and make more unforgiving bosses, bring even more action by randomizing their skills, reducing their CDs, create multiple way-outs (ways to act to mitigate damage) of OS skills to promote even more action. and give necros cleave

It all comes down to boss AI, again :’(

Petition: give swords to necros!
And hammer to rangers.
BUNNY THUMPER!
We just need more variety in dungeons, skills and traits.
Oh right, I forgot. No dungeon team and no expansions planned.

hendo.1940:

I mean, pure berserker isn’t even superior to pure assassins in lots of cases. They are usually about as effective as (in party runs or on self-buffing professions) and especially for reflects assassins is definitely better than berserkers.

Zerk >>> Sin since even in full zerk you can easily go over 100% crit (at least on warr and thief but probably guard too unless you stack bloodlust). And you still do more damage having higher power and a bit less crit chance than the other way around

Guard has more EP with full sin atm. And thats group (without spotter) and solo.

Wharrgarbl.9263:

hendo.1940:

I mean, pure berserker isn’t even superior to pure assassins in lots of cases. They are usually about as effective as (in party runs or on self-buffing professions) and especially for reflects assassins is definitely better than berserkers.

Zerk >>> Sin since even in full zerk you can easily go over 100% crit (at least on warr and thief but probably guard too unless you stack bloodlust). And you still do more damage having higher power and a bit less crit chance than the other way around

Having the goal to reach 100% critchance is usually stupid, the key behind a successful build is behind getting a nice balance between precision, critical damage and power. As for pure assassin vs berserker, usually pure assassin wins. There’s some things like bloodlust/perception stacks, power/precision food and power/precision signets you might have never heard of.

Anicetus.1253:

Having the goal to reach 100% critchance is usually stupid, the key behind a successful build is behind getting a nice balance between precision, critical damage and power. As for pure assassin vs berserker, usually pure assassin wins. There’s some things like bloodlust/perception stacks, power/precision food and power/precision signets you might have never heard of.

Well that’s not true. A ratio exist between the precision and power depending on your critical damage. How you gain that ratio is up to you. You can go full Zerker, have pts in the Power Trait line and then go get your precision from consumable and sigil of perception or you can have assassins armor and get power from consumable and sigil. But at that point you are really about min/maxing, which is the best? It change for each profession and each build so there is not definitive answer. Anyway with the incoming nerf a of people think that assassins won’t be as useful as it is now.

And this is why personally i never use the word full zerker, but rather full DPS. Zerker is only about the gear, not the build and don’t take into account assassins gear.

Just a curiosity, do most boss AI have simple, rudimentary routines that don’t branch out?

Advent Leader.1083:

Just a curiosity, do most boss AI have simple, rudimentary routines that don’t branch out?

Yes.

Wow. That much of server AI reduction is probably annoying, but because of the smaller dungeons being instanced, and limited in parties, it might be explainable.

Enaretos.8079:

DogCompany.1062:

If that’s the answer, would you like to see more challenges within Dungeons or leave them as is?

My point is : if you want the game to be challenging, keep the good and go forward : take the active gameplay that encourages skill (and zerker, for a good zerker is skilled because there is little room for error) and make more unforgiving bosses, bring even more action by randomizing their skills, reducing their CDs, create multiple way-outs (ways to act to mitigate damage) of OS skills to promote even more action. and give necros cleave

It all comes down to boss AI, again :’(

Excellent. Through this topic, it has exposed many solutions, such as, the reconfiguration of AI’s. I fully support the idea of AI’s, basically, need a buff in Dungeons or in the PvE world in general.

An additional question just came to mind and that is this; the basic melee attack from the AI, should that be pared with a players Auto-Attack speed?

deSade.9437:

Petition: give swords to necros!
And hammer to rangers.
BUNNY THUMPER!
We just need more variety in dungeons, skills and traits.
Oh right, I forgot. No dungeon team and no expansions planned.

Since you mentioned the Necromancer, and it is one of my favorite classes, I would definitely would like Necromancers to be given access to Greatswords along side its Light Class, Mesmer. In my opinion, the Greatsword would add more Curse/AoE Damage, if anything.

cranos.5913:

DogCompany.1062:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

I’m sorry but having a dedicated healer or tank is in no way diverse. That’s in fact the opposite. That’s pigeon holing.

I’m not sure what “pigeon holing” is, but neither would “All Berserker-Type classes only” isn’t diverse either. Having a Healer/Tank/Berserker-Type would be considered diverse, but I understand. Most people would find that troublesome to gather individual professions in order to complete Dungeons, but that’s the reason of this topic. To debate and discuss ways to allow all Types of professions involved in Dungeons, not a single profession.

profession = class (as in warrior, guardian, etc) not DPS, tank, healer.

Guild Wars 2 is a game that wanted to do something different than the classical trinity. If you wanted a tank, there would need to be some kind of reliable way of gaining aggro (most likely through skills). See anything like that? What about a healer that can heal you more than you can yourself? If you want a trinity then GW2 is not the game for you.

I go by Profession=Tank/Healer/build/traits. Class is Warrior/Guardian/Ranger. Anyways that’s besides the point.

Yes, I have realized that Guild Wars 2 may not be the game for me, even over a year of playing. I enjoy the concept of the game, running Dungeons, PvE world events for each map, everything in Guild Wars 2 was splendid. After so long, I wanted to see more challenges and that’s what Guild Wars 2 lacked from my point of view. I will continue to participate in Guild Wars 2 when time is available, but I am thinking of making a transition to Elder Scrolls: Online. Since the game should be similar to Skyrim, the game is Skill based, not gear. I enjoy the concept that earning gear in Skyrim that it increases your defense and enhances your Damage, but not enough to consider the game Gear-Based. It definitely focuses on your, for example, Two-Handed weapon skill and how far you have used that weapon in order to earn more perks to enhance your preferred weapon. Sure, you choose one weapon and your pretty much stuck with it, but that’s where I find the diversity in Skyrim. One person will choose to be a Caster-Class, others would be a Sword-Shield (definitely me) player, and you would have to gather a diverse group of people instead of just, “LFG. all heavies. all zerks.”

cranos.5913:

However, if you think those new dungeons will have a necessary dedicated healer, you’re in for a lot more qq’ing. There will once again be a minority of players who can and will use zerk gear there. Why? As tons of people before me said, support isn’t gear based. CC isn’t gear based. That’s how gw2 works. Now tell me, why exactly is it that having people with different gear makes dungeons more interesting? Those are passive stats, why care about some passive stats? lol

That’s the concern I have, a reason of posting this subject. My goal is to reveal a reasonable position to where completing Dungeons isn’t so easy. Obviously, Berserker-Types are definitely the way to go, but, sadly, ignores all other types of professions available. This brings up another post from before and that is there is not desire or room for “passive stats” in the PvE world. Now, I’m looking for solutions in order to expose players to a diverse way of playing instead of Berserker-Types to blow right through Dungeons. It’s time to make Dungeons more competitive.

Mossman and Archdiviner have fast autoattacks which can almost one hit at fractal level 50, have smart AI which moves and follows characters, and have wide open arenas which prevent stacking.

The best gear on them is still, bar none, berserker.

I wouldn’t mind more hard bosses like Lupi, Archdiviner, and Mossman. In fact, I don’t think anyone is arguing against the inclusion of hard content— you’re talking to most of the experts in the game on this forum (myself definitely not included in that, but many of the posters in this thread are).

But you have to realize: even with hard bosses like these, people still play smart and use berserker gear. Passive gear is not going to be effective in an active game like GW2.

DogCompany.1062:

I go by Profession=Tank/Healer/build/traits. Class is Warrior/Guardian/Ranger. Anyways that’s besides the point.

Of course if you want to use your own words, that won’t help you communication well in the forums.

Profession is the official name for : Guardian, Warrior, Elementalist, etc. You can use also use the word class, it’s a synonym and everybody will understand you.

Tank/Healer just don’t exist in the game, so no need to have a word for it. But what you want to say is role. If you continue to use profession = role, nobody will be able to understand what you are trying to say.

Thaddeus.4891:

DogCompany.1062:

I go by Profession=Tank/Healer/build/traits. Class is Warrior/Guardian/Ranger. Anyways that’s besides the point.

Of course if you want to use your own words, that won’t help you communication well in the forums.

Profession is the official name for : Guardian, Warrior, Elementalist, etc. You can use also use the word class, it’s a synonym and everybody will understand you.

Tank/Healer just don’t exist in the game, so no need to have a word for it. But what you want to say is role. If you continue to use profession = role, nobody will be able to understand what you are trying to say.

A++, please use the names the game actually uses.

DogCompany.1062:

cranos.5913:

However, if you think those new dungeons will have a necessary dedicated healer, you’re in for a lot more qq’ing. There will once again be a minority of players who can and will use zerk gear there. Why? As tons of people before me said, support isn’t gear based. CC isn’t gear based. That’s how gw2 works. Now tell me, why exactly is it that having people with different gear makes dungeons more interesting? Those are passive stats, why care about some passive stats? lol

That’s the concern I have, a reason of posting this subject. My goal is to reveal a reasonable position to where completing Dungeons isn’t so easy. Obviously, Berserker-Types are definitely the way to go, but, sadly, ignores all other types of professions available. This brings up another post from before and that is there is not desire or room for “passive stats” in the PvE world. Now, I’m looking for solutions in order to expose players to a diverse way of playing instead of Berserker-Types to blow right through Dungeons. It’s time to make Dungeons more competitive.

The thing is… they are for a lot of people. Have you played much in full zerk parties? It’s a LOT harder than on PVT/cleric gear. The simplest attack you’ve never really cared about in the past suddenly one shots. The first few times you play dungeons on that gear you’ll be having a lot of “WTF?” moments. Of course after learning it properly, it’s all not that difficult anymore, but the general population of GW2 and the majority of dungeon players haven’t even mastered that.

I will say though, needing a dedicated tank or healer isn’t part of this game, so whatever the challenges people will complete it on zerk gear eventually. Unless you add unavoidable damage JUST to nerf zerker parties, but how is that promoting fun and smart play? Bottom line is, if you want harder gameplay go full zerk.

Also new instances, be they new dungeons or fractals will most likely have a higher difficulty. You can already see this if you compare TA aether or most fractals on lvl 30+ with normal dungeons. So if you want that, you just have to wait 5 years until they start caring about their dungeon community again.

Seras.5702:

make defensive stats/gear a viable choice.

I think you are mistaking viable and optimal. You can complete all paths in/with defensive stats/gear making it a viable choice. It however is not optimal.

maxinion.8396:

Mossman and Archdiviner have fast autoattacks which can almost one hit at fractal level 50

Almost?
I’ll keep that in mind next time I wipe the muddy floor of swampland with my face.

deSade.9437:

maxinion.8396:

Mossman and Archdiviner have fast autoattacks which can almost one hit at fractal level 50

Almost?
I’ll keep that in mind next time I wipe the muddy floor of swampland with my face.

I stand corrected!

They basically wipe me at 39, but I haven’t done higher myself and didn’t want to exaggerate.

They hit me almost twice as much as my full HP…hur hur hur…

DogCompany.1062:

Harper.4173:

DogCompany.1062:

Harper.4173:

Dungeons were designed to be medium-hard to complete ON release. Not 1+ years after.
You want harder content? Go do fractals at level 30+.

Dungeons are designed in such a way that NO MATTER HOW BAD YOU ARE you will still complete it if you keep trying. That means that a VERY GOOD GROUP will breeze right on through. Regardless of gear – but zerker will make it the fastest.

I am familiar with high level Fractals and my experience tells me that Fractals should be the standard of any Dungeon. In short, shouldn’t Arena Net consider creating, or reconfiguring, more difficult Dungeons in order to avoid such repetitions?

No. Because dungeons are for farming at the moment. Make them more difficult and the majority of players who run them will quit doing them.

In your opinion, would you prefer Dungeons be developed for competitive purposes in the future?

No.
We have fractals for that – and a leaderboard was already promised so I believe they also intend for fractals to be the " Competitive high-end PVE " part.

Dungeons can never be made competitive. They’re too easy – but make them harder and a LOT of the community won’t be able to do them which defeats the purpose of having them in the first place.

Just keep them as they are. Give us more fractals.

DogCompany.1062:

Enaretos.8079:

DogCompany.1062:

If that’s the answer, would you like to see more challenges within Dungeons or leave them as is?

My point is : if you want the game to be challenging, keep the good and go forward : take the active gameplay that encourages skill (and zerker, for a good zerker is skilled because there is little room for error) and make more unforgiving bosses, bring even more action by randomizing their skills, reducing their CDs, create multiple way-outs (ways to act to mitigate damage) of OS skills to promote even more action. and give necros cleave

It all comes down to boss AI, again :’(

Excellent. Through this topic, it has exposed many solutions, such as, the reconfiguration of AI’s. I fully support the idea of AI’s, basically, need a buff in Dungeons or in the PvE world in general.

An additional question just came to mind and that is this; the basic melee attack from the AI, should that be pared with a players Auto-Attack speed?

The AI won’t be fixed. It would require a LOT of effort and difficulty. At most they’ll raise the difficulty in other ways – see new TA Aetherblade path ; see mistlock instability implementation.

Harper.4173:

DogCompany.1062:

Enaretos.8079:

DogCompany.1062:

If that’s the answer, would you like to see more challenges within Dungeons or leave them as is?

My point is : if you want the game to be challenging, keep the good and go forward : take the active gameplay that encourages skill (and zerker, for a good zerker is skilled because there is little room for error) and make more unforgiving bosses, bring even more action by randomizing their skills, reducing their CDs, create multiple way-outs (ways to act to mitigate damage) of OS skills to promote even more action. and give necros cleave

It all comes down to boss AI, again :’(

Excellent. Through this topic, it has exposed many solutions, such as, the reconfiguration of AI’s. I fully support the idea of AI’s, basically, need a buff in Dungeons or in the PvE world in general.

An additional question just came to mind and that is this; the basic melee attack from the AI, should that be pared with a players Auto-Attack speed?

The AI won’t be fixed. It would require a LOT of effort and difficulty. At most they’ll raise the difficulty in other ways – see new TA Aetherblade path ; see mistlock instability implementation.

You consider TA Aetherblade difficult? In what twisted parallel dimension do you live in? The path lacks popularity, however not because it is too hard (aside from beeing difficult to stay awake during countless waves of aethertrash).
While some mistlock instabilities have a decent touch to them (less damage while on low stamina for example) other are simply stupid (mainly scritped agony, which together with lots of entry agony for the “new fractals”, the removal of fotm 51+ and a slight reduce in difficulty for lvl49 (~50) put fotm further away from something you could really call “competetive pve endgame”.

Agony.3542:

Harper.4173:

DogCompany.1062:

Enaretos.8079:

DogCompany.1062:

If that’s the answer, would you like to see more challenges within Dungeons or leave them as is?

My point is : if you want the game to be challenging, keep the good and go forward : take the active gameplay that encourages skill (and zerker, for a good zerker is skilled because there is little room for error) and make more unforgiving bosses, bring even more action by randomizing their skills, reducing their CDs, create multiple way-outs (ways to act to mitigate damage) of OS skills to promote even more action. and give necros cleave

It all comes down to boss AI, again :’(

Excellent. Through this topic, it has exposed many solutions, such as, the reconfiguration of AI’s. I fully support the idea of AI’s, basically, need a buff in Dungeons or in the PvE world in general.

An additional question just came to mind and that is this; the basic melee attack from the AI, should that be pared with a players Auto-Attack speed?

The AI won’t be fixed. It would require a LOT of effort and difficulty. At most they’ll raise the difficulty in other ways – see new TA Aetherblade path ; see mistlock instability implementation.

You consider TA Aetherblade difficult? In what twisted parallel dimension do you live in? The path lacks popularity, however not because it is too hard (aside from beeing difficult to stay awake during countless waves of aethertrash).
While some mistlock instabilities have a decent touch to them (less damage while on low stamina for example) other are simply stupid (mainly scritped agony, which together with lots of entry agony for the “new fractals”, the removal of fotm 51+ and a slight reduce in difficulty for lvl49 (~50) put fotm further away from something you could really call “competetive pve endgame”.

It’s not difficult – but it is MORE difficult than COF P1, AC 1 and 3, HoTW 1. So yes – it has increased difficulty than the " meta " dungeons. It’s also more difficult in the sense that it is difficult to farm.

FOTM can be improved – there’s a whole CDI thread about it. More levels can be added, new fractals can be added. Agony is an issue but it’s the best we have right now?

What would the alternative be?
Competitive AC P1 runs?!

http://gwscr.com/records/current-meta-dungeon-records

yes.

Since we get about new path per year, trying to do the exsisting paths as fast as possible is the only “competetive” thing there is.

Agony was not the issue, the amount of levels available wasn’t the real issue either in the begining. These issues were created long after fotm was implemented.
Yes more fractals are nice, but not at the cost of killing a lot of the challenge.
Yes more dungeon paths are nice, but not at the cost of the old ones.

Also “farming” dungeons is ill advised. Champ farming is about as effective, but isn’t limted to run per day.
Yes you get gold from running dungeons, but if you sum it up and compare it to champ trains for the “average player”, these two come close, except for very few, like arah p4 or ta aether. And funnily enough, both are “nerfed” dungeon paths. Arah p4 used to be somewhat challenging, then simin got nerfed, and melandru got a lots of gorillas, because kitten YOU, THAT’S WHY. Ta F/U started bugging, and instead of fixing the bug, anet decided to remove it.

If you take a couple of minutes to look back at these decisions you might understand the scepticism a lot of people on this forum have when it comes to “enriching the dungeon experience”.
Giving bosses more than just 3 attacks is key to improving on fights. Putting focus away from “pointless trash fights” and instead on making some them harder with appropriate rewards while removing others is essential aswell. I don’t mind running a dungeon with trash that pretty much consists of Packs that can compare to 2x Risen illsionist +2x risen abom +2x risen X like mobs, if the reward is right. TAetherblade is far away from both. No challenge and beyond awful reward.

IMO the issue is the occasional and powerful 1 hit mechanics the enemy bosses have. If u just dodge those single blows you will be safe to dps the rest of the time. If dungeons had more constant damage towards us that was weaker, but hit consistantly throughout a battle. Stats like healing and toughness would come more into play.

OMNIBUS.2913:

IMO the issue is the occasional and powerful 1 hit mechanics the enemy bosses have. If u just dodge those single blows you will be safe to dps the rest of the time. If dungeons had more constant damage towards us that was weaker, but hit consistantly throughout a battle. Stats like healing and toughness would come more into play.

No dodge, almost no blocks, no kittens given about oneshot mechanics.

If you want truly mindless encounters, putting in lots of constant damage, and therefore the need for constant healing aswell as lots of toughness is the way to go.

Google up some of the early dev interviews and what their plan for the game was. No dedicated tanks, no dedicated healers. Support CC and Damage all in ONE player.
Yes the concept has failed, but not because crappy gear isn’t good enough, but because crappy gear made some support worthless unless you wear the crappy gear, which makes your damage crappy in return. CC is worthless because of the defiant mechanic. Chain CCing bosses might not be what you want, but having to delibertaly waste one of your stuns, just to decrease a number by 1 isn’t better. Defiance diminishing over time would be a possible solution for this.
Overhauling the stats on all armor/weapons/trinkets would solve the other issue. Regeneration wouldn’t suck so much if you wouldn’t be forced to have 3,5k+ toughness and 1k+ healing power for it to matter. Protection wouldn’t be so unreliable when it comes to “dealing with 1 shots” if you couldn’t easily have perma protection.

Interesting vid! To do something like that toughness and healing power was required but i see your point it looks boring.

Recently I was playing Tera and noticed a very important thing. Tera is a game where both dodging/blocking and holy trinity coexist.
Simply put, when your party is overgeared or encounter mechanics permit complete damage mitigation, no tanks or healers required/desired for the sake of speed.
On the other hand there are encounters with high attack rate mobs, HP sponges or some time gates which make fights considerably longer. The latter require holy trinity to be used.

So, basically both DPS rush and holy trinity are terminal cases which happen when players optimize their gameplay. I don’t think it’s ever will be worth arguing over which is better because it just depends only on how game is designed.

Edit: Killed the first paragraph because the post I referred to is… gone. And I stupidly didn’t quote.

Anyway back to the actual problem at hand. Warning: Wall of text incoming. Also: Couldn’t think of a good tl; dr so feel free to skip. You were warned.

One thing that always intrigues me, is that a lot of people still seem to think support equals healing.
It doesn’t. Especially not in a game where the personal healing a character has from healing skills far surpasses whatever healing a character can provide to his teammates.
Damage negation is a much more feasible defensive support option in a setup like this and aside from protection most of those damage negation options in the game are from active skill use. Yes, protection usually requires active skill use as well to acivate, but it usually requires less accurate timing than a dodge, or block for example.
Having said that, there is a ton of effensive support as well. Support isn’t always defensive in nature. Utlimately it might be considered defensive again, because the more offensive support the shorter the fight will be, which in return is sort of defensive because you can end the fight before you run out of other defensive options.

It’s been said a ton of times already but defensive stats in the pve-gaming mode are a way to negate a mistake in active defense to some degree. With some attacks even that won’t help you but there are enough attacks out there where toughness and vitality might keep you on your feet after a botched dodge. And healing power might get you faster back to the point when you can botch another dodge.
But isn’t actually getting the dodge right more rewarding and interesting? For me it is, but maybe there are different schools of thought.

An example from personal experience. If you’re not interested, skip the next paragraph.
I happen to posses a full zerker meta build thief. But when I pug or do high level fractals I usually opt for more hybridized equipment and traits. Why?
In the case of a normal dungeon pug I susually go with nondescript parties, meaning I can get any and all builds/professions/skill levels (which I’m fine with btw. as long as the lfg tag didn’t state specific requirements). That means I have no way to tell how fast any given encounter will resolved or on how much active defense I can count from my fellow players. So I opt for more room of error and greater sustain.
High level fractals is a bit different. In that case I don’t pug those, but I divert from an all out damage build because I’m simply not good enough with my thief to pull it off in a full zerker/max dps build-setup.
As I get better, I will progressively replace the hybrid parts with more offense. Until I’m there, I will go with more hybrid equipment and traits because until I am good enough I’m more of a liability to my team than helping then if I faceplant every five steps (slightly exaggerating here).

Another point is: People very often equalise “zerk equipment” with an offensive build. While in a lot of cases this may be true, it shouldn’t be used synonymously. You can gear with berserker and still trait for support. A good example is Obal’s fractal hammer build for guardians. There are damage elements in there, but the 20 points in honor are purely for defensive/support measures. Still the build works mighty fine in full berserker equipment (not discussing here that for guardians assassin might be more viable), but it nevertheless is a support build using defensive and offensive support traits for maximum group benefit at the expense of personal dmg maximisation.

Continued below because, well, wall of text…

The rest of said wall of text.

It might be of interest that I fall into the “play how you want” group of players. But to me that includes acknowledging that if others don’t wish to play the way I do, I shouldn’t group with them.
If i’m not in the mood to go speedrunning, I don’t join a group that is flagged as such. If I am in the mood, I make sure I fullfill their requirements.
In addition, I recognize that the meta playstyle is the most efficient and that going there to see how far you can push yourself, your character and your group can be a fun experience.
It isn’t for everyone though and it isn’t always for me either. In any case, I look for what I want to do with my spare time at the moment and go from there. That in no way however will entitle me to try and dictate how someone else should play or what they should consider fun.
But before someone interprets this paragraph wrong: If someone creates a group and clearly states what they want to do with said group – be it meta speed or rp or explore every nook and cranny because new to the dungeon or simply because people like the feel of it – it is well in their right to dictate how that particular group will play. But as it is tagged properly if I’m not interested in that, I simply won’t join. Problem solved.

I would like if some builds and weapon choices became more feasible in PVE especially in regard to conditions. But since we almost entirely use the same skills in any of the three game modes – pve, pvp and wvw – it will always mean that some gear options and builds will excel in certain game modes and be subpar in others.

As a last point: If more challenging small group content aka dungeons were implemented I firmly belief there will be people able to do those in meta/zerker setups once they’ve gained enough axperience at that content. And they should be. The game has a setup with a lot of active defense in a non dynamic environment as PVE (non dynamic compared to pvp for example, because no matter how good an AI, it currently can’t compete with an actual human when it comes to adaption and improvisation). And that setup should always, always allow players with the necessary skill and knowledge about the encounter to eliminate stats that do only one thing in this case: provide room for error.

Sorry for the length. Went way overboard there. but couldn’t find anything where I wanted to cut corners. Inserted a warning at the top.
Can’t really find a short tl; dr either without leaving something out. My bad.

Edit: Where did the post about the Ls zerk thing go I reffered to? Should have quoted.