Guild Wars 2

Vinceman.4572:

Cool then, but that’s the “Easy mode raids” thread, you better should have posted in one of the dungeon rework threads or open a new one.

My initial comment was that the easymode debate doesn’t make any sense, because Anet doesn’t care about the “middleground” players anyway. Even if we all would agree on an easymode Anet won’t care.
It was not me who then brought up fractals as “middleground” and so on.

Vinceman.4572:

Why? – Because they abandoned them and choose fractals as their 5 man instanced content.

Y, and fractals have huge problems (which i have probably already meantioned: limited in length, in rewards, in structure. You can’t add in a “storymode fractal” or a fractal with completly different rewards (other tokens, exclusive skins). So the concept of fractals is limited. You could add a “fractal 2.0” with other unique rewards, “fractal 2.0 skins” and so on.
An aetherpath, as example, wouldn’t fit well into the existing fractal system. Or arah.

Feanor.2358:

Can it be played with a group? Yes, it can. Are there community events hosted in the open world? Yes, there are. So no, it’s not content for “singleplayers”.

The simple option to form a group is not the same as content made for groups.
Should be obvious. If open world would only allow 5 players to join a map, enemies are balanced to face 5 players and so on: yes. But that wouldn’t be open world anymore, right?

There is tequatl, there are guildmissions, there is triple trouble and so on. So why do we need raids? Why were there people running dungeons over and over again when there is open world content?
It’s a huge difference to be part of a zerg or to be part of a small group. A boss can be designed for 5 players. But I can’t ban other players from the map which join in and “help” fighting the boss and ruin our “teamexperience”. Everyone can run around solo on an open world map and “succeed”, do map exploration and so on. There is no need to form a group. There is no need to adjust your build to teamcomposition or change classes. There isn’t even a guarantee to end up on the same map with your guildmates, you might all be fighting tequatl on different maps – I can have the same “teamplay” in skyrim.

You expect frequent new content aimed at team players which isn’t designed to be repeated over and over again. Won’t happen. Waaaay to expensive to create. I can’t really think of any worse business model in the game dev sector. Nobody gives a feline that some players want this when they aren’t going to pay enough to cover the costs.

I asked for dungeonlike or fractallike content. That’s “content which isn’t designed to be repeated”?

I just said on the more casual end it doesn’t need to be “perfect” content. Two posts ago I even brought up an example which included 3 repetitions for casual players + more repitions in following years. You just can’t assume a casual player is repeating the same dungeon hundreds of times. That’s not going to happen and would be indeed one of the worst business models in the videogame sector.
It won’t work and even if it would: if a player doesn’t like the new content for whatever reason (setting, story, gamemechanics, style of enemies) he is stuck with 0 new content.
See HoT: 4 maps and many players don’t like TD. So a “3 map expansion”. If you include DS, which is also not loved by everyone.
It’s impossible to create content which is liked by everyone. Small amounts of content = highly specialised game catering to a small group of players =niche game.
HoT ignored, for example, open world “explorer” players which would prefer more and easy maps without huge zerg-events.
Or players which just want to jump into a map without a schedule.

You also might have noticed: GW2s LS is mostly content with low replay value, especially the story.

Costs is a matter of tools. Give a 12 year old the right tools and he creates a simple dungeon in two hours. Or just rebalance old content, for example lake dorik final storymission (CM mansions) could also be a new dungeonpath. Several story instances could be splitted up into “storymode” “teammode” and “hardmode”, adjust enemy stats and rewards and there you go.

No, you were complaining about the quantity of new fractals. The quantity is fine. Plus, raids are exactly like that content, except better.

No, raids don’t target the same audience as T1-T2 fractals and dungeons do.

Yes, I was complaining about the quantity of new instanced casual content.
Would you say there is enough content when all raids would get deleted?

Well none of the t1-2 fractals and only 1 of the 32 dungeon paths have been deleted so its not like thats a good comparison mate.

A raid player can still play fractals , dungeons and open world when raids would be deleted. So he would be in exactly the same situation as a “non raid teamplayer” is now.

But you and the raid player would have less content.

Since someday in the future maybe even you will get into raids.

It’s a comfortable position to say “there is enough content” when you can choose between raids, fractals and dungeons.
For a player who is limited to dungeons and fractals the amount of content is way less.
That’s why I asked if he would say there is enough content for him to do without raids.

Henry.5713:

What I was actually talking about is missing the point of the constant complaining on these forums rather than any opinion in particular. Alas, complaining until ArenaNet gives in is the actual point of it. Now that wouldn’t even be the worst of ideas, considering their track record.

Considering that’s exactly how raiders got their raids, it seems to be a really good idea, to be truthful. It’s definitely better than just letting it go, because the latter has exactly zero chance of accomplishing anything.

Jockum.1385:

No, raids don’t target the same audience as T1-T2 fractals and dungeons do.

Yes, I was complaining about the quantity of new instanced casual content.
Would you say there is enough content when all raids would get deleted?

I don’t think low-tier fractals are actually meant for anyone, except as a stepping stone toward T4. As for dungeons, Arah explorable says “Hi”.

Astralporing.1957:

Considering that’s exactly how raiders got their raids, it seems to be a really good idea, to be truthful. It’s definitely better than just letting it go, because the latter has exactly zero chance of accomplishing anything.

Except asking for type of content which didn’t exist isn’t the same as asking for content which already exists but you cannot be bothered to enjoy it because you already played it once.

Feanor.2358:

Jockum.1385:

No, raids don’t target the same audience as T1-T2 fractals and dungeons do.

Yes, I was complaining about the quantity of new instanced casual content.
Would you say there is enough content when all raids would get deleted?

I don’t think low-tier fractals are actually meant for anyone, except as a stepping stone toward T4. As for dungeons, Arah explorable says “Hi”.

Astralporing.1957:

Considering that’s exactly how raiders got their raids, it seems to be a really good idea, to be truthful. It’s definitely better than just letting it go, because the latter has exactly zero chance of accomplishing anything.

Except asking for type of content which didn’t exist isn’t the same as asking for content which already exists but you cannot be bothered to enjoy it because you already played it once.

Ooh, easy mode raids exist already?

Astralporing.1957:

Ooh, easy mode raids exist already?

Yes. For few months already. When designing raids they relied on a complex system that allows content to become easier over time. You even get the same rewards hardcore players did when content was just released. What once took 2-3 weeks and countless hours of research and gear optimization now can be done in an evening by a group of random players with basic understanding of game mechanics.

Astralporing.1957:

Feanor.2358:

Jockum.1385:

No, raids don’t target the same audience as T1-T2 fractals and dungeons do.

Yes, I was complaining about the quantity of new instanced casual content.
Would you say there is enough content when all raids would get deleted?

I don’t think low-tier fractals are actually meant for anyone, except as a stepping stone toward T4. As for dungeons, Arah explorable says “Hi”.

Astralporing.1957:

Considering that’s exactly how raiders got their raids, it seems to be a really good idea, to be truthful. It’s definitely better than just letting it go, because the latter has exactly zero chance of accomplishing anything.

Except asking for type of content which didn’t exist isn’t the same as asking for content which already exists but you cannot be bothered to enjoy it because you already played it once.

Ooh, easy mode raids exist already?

No it seems even given the thread title this thread is now about casual 5 man dungeon content for some reason.

Astralporing.1957:

Ooh, easy mode raids exist already?

“Easy mode challenging content”. Am I the only one who sees a problem with that? What is going to be next, story mode PvP?

Feanor.2358:

“Easy mode challenging content”. Am I the only one who sees a problem with that?

Do you really thing that the same difficulty is the same level of challenge to everyone? I’m pretty sure that there are players, for example, for whom raids aren’t a challenge at all. As well as those that would be challenged even with a lower-difficulty version.

Feanor.2358:

Astralporing.1957:

Ooh, easy mode raids exist already?

“Easy mode challenging content”. Am I the only one who sees a problem with that? What is going to be next, story mode PvP?

Nah, probably Infantile trading post mode. It is after all the true end game and economics is too complex for the average users.

Astralporing.1957:

Feanor.2358:

“Easy mode challenging content”. Am I the only one who sees a problem with that?

Do you really thing that the same difficulty is the same level of challenge to everyone? I’m pretty sure that there are players, for example, for whom raids aren’t a challenge at all. As well as those that would be challenged even with a lower-difficulty version.

The thing is, those who would be challenged by a lower-difficulty version can get the very same level of challenge in existing content like fractals.

Feanor.2358:

Astralporing.1957:

Feanor.2358:

“Easy mode challenging content”. Am I the only one who sees a problem with that?

Do you really thing that the same difficulty is the same level of challenge to everyone? I’m pretty sure that there are players, for example, for whom raids aren’t a challenge at all. As well as those that would be challenged even with a lower-difficulty version.

The thing is, those who would be challenged by a lower-difficulty version can get the very same level of challenge in existing content like fractals.

Yes please point out what fractal you can go into with 10 people and they will get the very same level of challenge.

Please point out how is the number of people relevant to how challenging you find the content? If anything, dropping the number of people down makes it more challenging. It’s true for raids, fractals, dungeons, even open-world group events. I trust you can find the challenge just for you even if you find raids too challenging. Therefore, it is not reasonable to ask for a mode of raids which misses their whole point. Namely, being challenging content.

Just because there’s a different piece of content with the right difficulty level doesnt mean its unreasonable to ask for the same difficulty level for a completely different content type.

I would totally be for a hardmode living story season2 or an easier version of raids if that brings the experience to more players.

In fact I don’t doubt they already explored the idea of an easier raid mode. Just because its not as unreasonable as you think.

Feanor.2358:

Therefore, it is not reasonable to ask for a mode of raids which misses their whole point. Namely, being challenging content.

Why not? After all, that’s their only point only for you. Other people might be (and often, in fact are) interested in them for completely different reasons.

In the end, challenge, etc. are just sideshows. The main point of any content in this game is the same – to keep people playing.

FrizzFreston.5290:

In fact I don’t doubt they already explored the idea of an easier raid mode. Just because its not as unreasonable as you think.

Of course they haven’t. But they either have rejected the idea or just not implemented due to reasons.

Astralporing.1957:

Feanor.2358:

Therefore, it is not reasonable to ask for a mode of raids which misses their whole point. Namely, being challenging content.

Why not? After all, that’s their only point for you. Other people might be (and often, in fact are) interested in them for completely different reasons.

In the end, challenge, etc. are just sideshows. The main point of any content in this game is the same – to keep people playing.

Here’s an interesting thing – people keep repeating content for two reasons.
1. Challenge
2. Rewards

Everything else is a drive to play the content once and maybe revisit it once or twice after long time, but doesn’t really keep people playing it.

So if you’re not after the challenge, you’re after the rewards, yes?

Feanor.2358:

Astralporing.1957:

Feanor.2358:

Therefore, it is not reasonable to ask for a mode of raids which misses their whole point. Namely, being challenging content.

Why not? After all, that’s their only point for you. Other people might be (and often, in fact are) interested in them for completely different reasons.

In the end, challenge, etc. are just sideshows. The main point of any content in this game is the same – to keep people playing.

Here’s an interesting thing – people keep repeating content for two reasons.
1. Challenge
2. Rewards

Everything else is a drive to play the content once and maybe revisit it once or twice after long time, but doesn’t really keep people playing it.

So if you’re not after the challenge, you’re after the rewards, yes?

Mostly after the social component of the game, actually. I like to play content with friends. I dislike having to choose friends based on content (which is what most of raiders advocate, even if they won’t say it that way).

Astralporing.1957:

Feanor.2358:

Astralporing.1957:

Feanor.2358:

Therefore, it is not reasonable to ask for a mode of raids which misses their whole point. Namely, being challenging content.

Why not? After all, that’s their only point for you. Other people might be (and often, in fact are) interested in them for completely different reasons.

In the end, challenge, etc. are just sideshows. The main point of any content in this game is the same – to keep people playing.

Here’s an interesting thing – people keep repeating content for two reasons.
1. Challenge
2. Rewards

Everything else is a drive to play the content once and maybe revisit it once or twice after long time, but doesn’t really keep people playing it.

So if you’re not after the challenge, you’re after the rewards, yes?

Mostly after the social component of the game, actually. I like to play content with friends. I dislike having to choose friends based on content (which is what most of raiders advocate, even if they won’t say it that way).

No raider is saying that, we’re saying learn together and die a few times just like the rest of us had to do as opposed to expecting a sure fire loot pinata.

Astralporing.1957:

Feanor.2358:

Astralporing.1957:

Feanor.2358:

Therefore, it is not reasonable to ask for a mode of raids which misses their whole point. Namely, being challenging content.

Why not? After all, that’s their only point for you. Other people might be (and often, in fact are) interested in them for completely different reasons.

In the end, challenge, etc. are just sideshows. The main point of any content in this game is the same – to keep people playing.

Here’s an interesting thing – people keep repeating content for two reasons.
1. Challenge
2. Rewards

Everything else is a drive to play the content once and maybe revisit it once or twice after long time, but doesn’t really keep people playing it.

So if you’re not after the challenge, you’re after the rewards, yes?

Mostly after the social component of the game, actually. I like to play content with friends. I dislike having to choose friends based on content (which is what most of raiders advocate, even if they won’t say it that way).

Part of the attraction of raids is to overcome challenges with friends and become better players, not to chase the rewards with a group that kills it instantly. If you think you can’t play with your friends its not the fault of the content.

Feanor.2358:

Here’s an interesting thing – people keep repeating content for two reasons.

1. Challenge
2. Rewards

Everything else is a drive to play the content once and maybe revisit it once or twice after long time, but doesn’t really keep people playing it.

So if you’re not after the challenge, you’re after the rewards, yes?

Rewards are indeed a big motivation for the MMO customer base. This is a no-brainer. Devs rely on rewards to keep people playing long past the time when the fresh new-content smell turns into the stale-popcorn and spilled beer smell of over-played content.

However, there’s a flaw in your argument. That is, that challenge is not the only alternative to rewards as a motivator. Challenge only extends the half-life of content for a subset of the whole player-base. There are a lot of other motivations to play MMO’s: being social; relaxing after a hard day at work; power fantasies; and immersion being some. Then there are all the imports from games like Farmville. I have no idea what motivates them, except perhaps wasting time. I doubt challenge enters into it.

I can only conclude that your personal preferences and experiences are behind the flaw. There are a ton of players who don’t give a rat’s behind about challenge, and who have other motivations behind their choice to play a given game besides rewards. Those who care about challenge may tend to congregate together, especially because MMO devs produce “hard” PvE content for groups. Perhaps your perspective is limited because you hang out more with people who like challenge.

You might be better served to focus on a different point. We’ve all seen that many who ask for easy raids balk at the prospect of getting them without the rewards. The question I’d ask, and I’ve asked it a lot in the GW2 forums, is, “Why does every bit of content and every reward have to be accessible to a particular group’s preferences?”

IndigoSundown.5419:

However, there’s a flaw in your argument. That is, that challenge is not the only alternative to rewards as a motivator. Challenge only extends the half-life of content for a subset of the whole player-base. There are a lot of other motivations to play MMO’s: being social; relaxing after a hard day at work; power fantasies; and immersion being some.

And you absolutely can’t relax or be social anywhere else, except in a dumbed-down version of the most challenging content has to offer. Right?

IndigoSundown.5419:

The question I’d ask, and I’ve asked it a lot in the GW2 forums, is, “Why does every bit of content and every reward have to be accessible to a particular group’s preferences?”

The content in such a large game is targeted toward different groups, with different preferences. Meaning there will always be content designed for specific players which appears inaccessible to others. Like raids appeal to me but PvP doesn’t. The difference is, I accept that and don’t complain on the forums why there is no story-mode PvP.

IndigoSundown.5419:

“Why does every bit of content and every reward have to be accessible to a particular group’s preferences?”

Probably because the alternative is boring? For lack of a better word. Video game rewards have been like that for ages, you want reward A then you go and play content A. Want that epic sword that can split dimensions with a swing? You’ll need to go and beat that epic dragon that guards it. Putting the greatest rewards behind the greatest foes is the best way to reward players who actually beat your hardest content.

In some games they don’t do that and instead offer the rewards as things you can buy. Basing the reward on currencies is a good, but it doesn’t translate very well in online settings and/or where you can farm and repeat for that reward. The greatest Guild Wars 2 example is generation 1 Legendary weapons.

You saw someone with Sunrise? He
1) Used his credit card
2) Farmed easily-farmed content for weeks
3) Was insanely lucky with a precursor drop and/or material drops
That’s what everyone looking at him would think. It makes the reward cheap and not as epic as it should’ve been. This is mostly because balancing rewards with time and difficulty is impossible in online settings (and offline settings but you don’t care much about it in single player games).

Let’s say that you can buy everything with gold, a universal currency, so everyone can get all rewards by playing any kind of content they love. If gold acquisition was somewhat balanced and the hardest/time consuming content was actually more rewarding in gold, then it could work. But that’s not the case and why, in a Guild Wars 2 example, we get so many new currencies.

Why do we need so many currencies and not base everything on gold? Because otherwise there would be very little incentive to go play on the new maps. Just hoard the gold by farming easy mobs in low level zones, then use the cash to buy Legendary Weapons, Legendary Armor, Living World rewards, dungeon rewards, fractal rewards and anything they can imagine. Or use your credit card to buy gems then convert to gold. Same thing.

There is also the possibility of doing both at the same time. Have very specific/unique rewards behind very specific content, but allow players to also sell those rewards. That’s the Guild Wars 1 system, you want that epic looking sword? Go do that epic dungeon because it’s the end reward. You cannot do that dungeon? Buy it from other players. But here is the greatest drawback of that system: RNG. You might run that dungeon 100 times and not get that sword skin you love, this is another way of making your players angry.

So the best solution? Offer a bit of everything, put rewards behind all the above systems to satisfy all kinds of players.

Feanor.2358:

IndigoSundown.5419:

However, there’s a flaw in your argument. That is, that challenge is not the only alternative to rewards as a motivator. Challenge only extends the half-life of content for a subset of the whole player-base. There are a lot of other motivations to play MMO’s: being social; relaxing after a hard day at work; power fantasies; and immersion being some.

And you absolutely can’t relax or be social anywhere else, except in a dumbed-down version of the most challenging content has to offer. Right?

I certainly can, but I’m not the type of player under discussion. Or was that a generic “you”? For those who might feel that way, perhaps it isn’t a matter of cannot but one of want to.

Feanor.2358:

IndigoSundown.5419:

The question I’d ask, and I’ve asked it a lot in the GW2 forums, is, “Why does every bit of content and every reward have to be accessible to a particular group’s preferences?”

The content in such a large game is targeted toward different groups, with different preferences. Meaning there will always be content designed for specific players which appears inaccessible to others. Like raids appeal to me but PvP doesn’t. The difference is, I accept that and don’t complain on the forums why there is no story-mode PvP.

That’s certainly what I’ve been saying all along. However, I don’t see any problem with people asking for something. Where would the game be if people who complained about lack of raids had said nothing?

Either way, you’re right about rewards being the central issue in these discussions. The “easy raid wanters” mostly want the raid rewards, and the raiders want the rewards to remain exclusive. It’s not about challenge v. less challenge. If it was solely an issue of degree of challenge, then those who wanted easy would play easy, and those who wanted hard would play hard, and never the twain would meet.

Even if it was only about challenge level, though, I’d be against tiered raids. I’m someone who truly does not give a kitten about the exclusive rewards. My preference for the status quo is rooted in the recognition that developer resources are limited. Making tiered raids would either impact raid delivery, or the devs would have to be taken from something else. I don’t think either option would be good for the overall health of the game.

Astralporing.1957:

Henry.5713:

What I was actually talking about is missing the point of the constant complaining on these forums rather than any opinion in particular. Alas, complaining until ArenaNet gives in is the actual point of it. Now that wouldn’t even be the worst of ideas, considering their track record.

Considering that’s exactly how raiders got their raids, it seems to be a really good idea, to be truthful. It’s definitely better than just letting it go, because the latter has exactly zero chance of accomplishing anything.

Re-posting from page 1.

This issue isn’t a small bug that was reported once and ANET forgot about. It has been talked about on the forums/reddit/podcasts every day for at minimum 12 months. Not doing so doesn’t mean you are “letting it go” it means that we’ve simply decided that ANET has all of the input they need from the player base and we don’t need to get frustrated with eachother every day for another year. We can “just let it go” and ANET will handle it how they see fit. Its been discussed enough, they won’t forget.

REPOST
For a new player, it is fine if they have these same concerns and have a post. My point is that when this occurs we don’t really need another thread that is 30 pages long. A simple post with “Hey this has been discussed on the forum very heavily, here are some links to those threads” would suffice. Then after reading, if that new person feels they can add some value to the conversation, then sure feel free to keep adding comments. Otherwise, the post with the links could be the end of it.
My point is that having new people, old people, etc constantly repeat the same arguments back and forth with no value added doesn’t get us anywhere. It certainly doesn’t give ANET any more reason to meet the needs of the people asking for change.
They know this is a concern. They know that the number of players it affects is constantly changing. We really don’t need to have the same conversation today as we did 1 year ago. A simple link to it and “please feel free to add comments if you feel your thoughts haven’t been addressed by the previous discussion” should be enough.
I’m not trying to silence anyone. I’m trying to keep the discussion relevant with new value added/thoughts. Not to keep it around just to say “me too”.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Where would the game be if people who complained about lack of raids had said nothing?

The HUGE difference is that the game was supposed to have content that raiders in other games would love. So those complaining about the lack of Raids had a very good reason to do so. If this supposed content for raiders was actually content for raiders to begin with, we wouldn’t need “traditional” Raids in the game.

maddoctor.2738:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Where would the game be if people who complained about lack of raids had said nothing?

The HUGE difference is that the game was supposed to have content that raiders in other games would love. So those complaining about the lack of Raids had a very good reason to do so. If this supposed content for raiders was actually content for raiders to begin with, we wouldn’t need “traditional” Raids in the game.

And the flip side of that was that the content that was hyped to scratch that itch turned out, with the exception of a few paths, to be much more accessible. That created expectations, too.

Nice cherry pick, btw.

IndigoSundown.5419:

And the flip side of that was that the content that was hyped to scratch that itch turned out, with the exception of a few paths, to be much more accessible.

Not talking about dungeons btw, although dungeons were also considered really hard for a time. But they weren’t the “supposed” Raids. Orr was supposed to be the content for Raiders, or rather the big open “raids” to retake the Temples were. How did that turn out? Nothing like a Raid at all, and sure not something for a raider to like.

The Living World gave us multiple versions of their “Raids”, Ancient Karka, Marionette, Scarlet’s Hologram. Permanent updates also gave us their version of “Raids”: revamped Tequatl, Triple Trouble and so on. I guess the entire thing didn’t work out for what it was supposed to be, that’s why we never got another encounter like Triple Trouble.

You should take a look at the accessibility of Raids too. Raids in Guild Wars 2 were advertised as hardcore content that only organized Guilds could complete and pugs wouldn’t be able to, with the exception of some bosses. Now pugs clear all the Raid bosses daily. Now we get low-man and joke runs with random builds in Raids.

But even though the accessibility of Raids isn’t the “expected one”, it’s still content for Raiders. On the other hand, the content that was supposed to be “for raiders” at release was never going to work as content “for raiders”. That’s the difference

maddoctor.2738:

IndigoSundown.5419:

And the flip side of that was that the content that was hyped to scratch that itch turned out, with the exception of a few paths, to be much more accessible.

Not talking about dungeons btw, although dungeons were also considered really hard for a time. But they weren’t the “supposed” Raids. Orr was supposed to be the content for Raiders, or rather the big open “raids” to retake the Temples were. How did that turn out? Nothing like a Raid at all, and sure not something for a raider to like.

The Living World gave us multiple versions of their “Raids”, Ancient Karka, Marionette, Scarlet’s Hologram. Permanent updates also gave us their version of “Raids”: revamped Tequatl, Triple Trouble and so on. I guess the entire thing didn’t work out for what it was supposed to be, that’s why we never got another encounter like Triple Trouble.

You should take a look at the accessibility of Raids too. Raids in Guild Wars 2 were advertised as hardcore content that only organized Guilds could complete and pugs wouldn’t be able to, with the exception of some bosses. Now pugs clear all the Raid bosses daily. Now we get low-man and joke runs with random builds in Raids.

But even though the accessibility of Raids isn’t the “expected one”, it’s still content for Raiders. On the other hand, the content that was supposed to be “for raiders” at release was never going to work as content “for raiders”. That’s the difference

“Colin Johanson: There will be endgame content where you can play in maps filled with dynamic events. There will be endgame content that we’re calling dungeons, and many of these are high-level raids.”

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/guild-wars-2-dynamic-events-interview?page=3

The above contradicts your assertion that ANet did not consider dungeons to be raid equivalent content. ArenaNet said a lot of things, some of them conflicting, some of them fell by the wayside, some were not accepted by consumers. <shrug>

Frankly, open world content was always going to fail as a raid equivalent. Raiders were never going to accept a “raid equivalent” which anyone could join and which did not result in exclusive, prestigious rewards. If ANet ever thought they would, it was yet another psychology fail on their part.

With regard to being a “raid equivalent”, open world was never going to fail due to lack of exclusive rewards. It failed because it was a joke that didn’t even come close to raids in any way.

IndigoSundown.5419:

The above contradicts your assertion that ANet did not consider dungeons to be raid equivalent content.

It depends on which interview you are watching/reading I guess

Frankly, open world content was always going to fail as a raid equivalent. Raiders were never going to accept a “raid equivalent” which anyone could join and which did not result in exclusive, prestigious rewards. If ANet ever thought they would, it was yet another psychology fail on their part.

You are wrong about the reasons raiders wouldn’t accept that content as equivalent to raids. Raiders would never accept content that is brain dead easy, like most open world content is for the majority of the participants. There are roles that require some extra skill to play, for example obviously the commanders, or cannon/world item users, or players responsible for important reflects and other things like that. But those are rare, and the majority of players in the open world don’t really use their actual skill bars, yet everyone gets the same rewards.

Raiders want content that is challenging and requires thought, team work and some amount of prep-work to succeed. If the skill requirement is low, if team work requirement is low and if no prep-work is needed to succeed then it’s not a Raid. And the game failed to deliver any of that type of content. Maybe in those interviews they had the wrong idea of what raiders actually like and what raids are, or they did it on purpose to get the extra sales. Who knows.

I guess the best encounter that mixed the two types of players was the Marionette encounter that featured both casual open world part and a more complicated/challenging low-man part. Unfortunately there were complaints on both sides because there was no clear way to distinct the two.

Secret World Legends has it
Final Fantasy XIV has it
WoW has it

This one, a game advertized for casual players, where everyone could do any content, doesn’t have.

Heck, not even in WoW people were so picky to kick me out of raids as a newb, ask me to get into voice channels, or even check my gear or DPS…

Aldath.1275:

Secret World Legends has it
Final Fantasy XIV has it
WoW has it

This one, a game advertized for casual players, where everyone could do any content, doesn’t have.

Heck, not even in WoW people were so picky to kick me out of raids as a newb, ask me to get into voice channels, or even check my gear or DPS…

Please get the interview where they said everyone could do all content. I can only remember the excact opposite, that they want content that is challenging for organised groups.

They also said years ago, when we got the first LFG, they will never implement an automatic system.

CptAurellian.9537:

With regard to being a “raid equivalent”, open world was never going to fail due to lack of exclusive rewards. It failed because it was a joke that didn’t even come close to raids in any way.

maddoctor.2738:

You are wrong about the reasons raiders wouldn’t accept that content as equivalent to raids. Raiders would never accept content that is brain dead easy, like most open world content is for the majority of the participants.

So, you want me to believe that if the difficulty was there, but the rewards weren’t (and they really weren’t) that people whose preferred content is raids would have kept doing temple events? Sorry, not buying it, at least not in the amount of that type of player the developer wanted to attract and keep.

IndigoSundown.5419:

So, you want me to believe that if the difficulty was there, but the rewards weren’t (and they really weren’t) that people whose preferred content is raids would have kept doing temple events? Sorry, not buying it, at least not in the amount of that type of player the developer wanted to attract and keep.

I’m talking about priorities. There are people still doing Triple Trouble after all while the rewards are garbage compared to nearly anything you can do during the same time frame (especially if you include planning/jumping too).

Btw, the Temple events already had unique rewards not available elsewhere in the game. The karma armor skins were unique, you could only get obsidian shards after the temple of balthazar event (only way to make a Legendary), and you could only access the dungeon of Arah after you finished the events outside of it.

So what was missing to draw that particular crowd as was advertised? Having actually challenging events that required some thought, proper builds/roles, actual teamwork in other words “raid-like” mechanics. The “epic” temple events were all about getting more people to turn them into a large farm.

IndigoSundown.5419:

So, you want me to believe that if the difficulty was there, but the rewards weren’t (and they really weren’t) that people whose preferred content is raids would have kept doing temple events? Sorry, not buying it, at least not in the amount of that type of player the developer wanted to attract and keep.

Loot may be a factor, but it’s certainly not the decisive one. Yes, that’s what I want to tell you. Challenging open world (raid) bosses are a difficult feat to pull off. WoW had two bosses of that kind I remember (the demon lord and doomreaver in TBC, can’t really remember the open world bosses from classic). Those weren’t so bad, but not at all comparable to GW2 bosses. First, the loot system discouraged any kind of zerging, and second, a single death could be extremely devastating due to chain reaction effects. If GW2 introduced the latter, I’d love to see the ocean of tears it creates. Doc already mentioned Marionette, which could become quite toxic – a boss with real difficulty would make that fight look like a walk in the park.

Stop the threads and just get better. If it is to hard for you then it’s not meant to be. Every excuse you use is just BS. There are more then enough tools to help you at your disposal just look and use them. The easy mode raid is called dungeons work your way up like alot of us did. I always pug and raid on the worst hours but I still manage to get my clears.

Magnus Godrik.5841:

Stop the threads and just get better. If it is to hard for you then it’s not meant to be. Every excuse you use is just BS. There are more then enough tools to help you at your disposal just look and use them. The easy mode raid is called dungeons work your way up like alot of us did. I always pug and raid on the worst hours but I still manage to get my clears.

Inb4 two certain players say you are one of the very few rare elites that can pug Raids.

But for reals pugging Raids are so easy, I did it for the first time raiding not that long ago with non Meta builds / classes and everyone except 1 player had never done the Raids before and we cleared Vg in a very few attempts.

A few players are just whining just so they can get easy Legendary Armor.

Aldath.1275:

Secret World Legends has it
Final Fantasy XIV has it
WoW has it

This one, a game advertized for casual players, where everyone could do any content, doesn’t have.

Heck, not even in WoW people were so picky to kick me out of raids as a newb, ask me to get into voice channels, or even check my gear or DPS…

I don’t understand what’s stopping you from joining OR STARTING a raid training group. It’s not exactly rocket science, you go do a raid training, you PROBABLY even get the kill, because so many of the bosses are almost unfailable after a few tries, and then suddenly you know the fight and aren’t a n00b any more! It’s crazy how that works. Literally, every day I see multiple training runs while trolling LFG.

Here’s the thing, this game already has easy mode raids, it’s called raiding without the challenge mote turned on. The real problem is lack of incentive for people to do the challenge motes more than one time, but that’s for other forum threads.

They can remove the enrage mechanics from each boss , so even ppl with soldier gears can kill it , painfully slow , and a 25 min restored HP to avoid any exploits .
But the last boss should have 10 stages/forms , that each passing minute is corrupted by his inner fear are the enemies are getting closer or get furious that the enemies are laying siege on his domain while his generals are doing nothing .
For extra form/minute , he gets more dangerous to face .

So trying to loose 10% of the first boss hp , will spawn a fragment of his armor that can be thrown to the messenger that is trying to alert the King for example .
Either dps the boss as fast as posible , before the messanger follows the round route and dissapears from you .
Or try to kill the next mesanger in the next boss , so he wont increase the King mdness Tier even more .

edit: (also the guilds with the Guild Panel menu can summon that tier 11 last Boss for a SUPER HARD MODE with all the Raid rewards/loot together , or any other Random boss that the system will chose to counter the Raid composition .
Or a combination of 2 (like Tekken Tag Tournament) and cross-x combinations attacks )

Solitude.2097:

They can remove the enrage mechanics from each boss , so even ppl with soldier gears can kill it , painfully slow , and a 25 min restored HP to avoid any exploits .

I’ve said it multiple times, enrage is extremely unlikely cause of wipe. If you can’t kill the boss, it’s because you fail mechanics, not because you lack dps. You don’t need minmaxed builds with perfect rotations to meet the dps checks. You don’t need anything close to that, provided you don’t fail at mechanics.

Feanor.2358:

Solitude.2097:

They can remove the enrage mechanics from each boss , so even ppl with soldier gears can kill it , painfully slow , and a 25 min restored HP to avoid any exploits .

I’ve said it multiple times, enrage is extremely unlikely cause of wipe. If you can’t kill the boss, it’s because you fail mechanics, not because you lack dps. You don’t need minmaxed builds with perfect rotations to meet the dps checks. You don’t need anything close to that, provided you don’t fail at mechanics.

And what is the problem again ?
Without a enrage mechanics , it will remove the sociological effec that atleast you must have some specs to boost the dps/survibility of the party , or having to worry of that 15 min benchmark .
Even if you can do the Raids with Knights gear atm , then ppl will choose to inv ppl with Berseker gear (just like dungeons ) , but atleast every1 can take thier time to play as they want without the ‘’bitter effect in their mouth’’ .
They wont be able to beat the last boss (beucase they will take their time , and the madness effects will stack up) , while the last tier 1 madness boss can have a chance to drop some prestigious Weapon Skin for the l33t players + massive gold for completing the Raid as fast as posible

Heck … the guilds can summon the 10(+1) stacked end boss for a single fight , if they want the loot faster .
Or allow 2 guilds to compete in a same time ’’Tournament’’ , while they see each other as dots to get comfused

(edit: regadles of what we do or think , most ppl wont touch the Raids even in the next x-pack , because that feeling of ’’despise’’ once tasted , it wont wash off …. but why not waste some money , for an extra 6% participation ? :P)

You can already go into enrage mode on most bosses and kill them with non-dps classes.
Players are just not excited to go into raids with suboptimal gear and hit a boss for 1 hour to succeed while executing (some) mechanics that long.
If you can kill Giganticus Lupicus in Arah with running around like chicken + crying in a certain time you’ll definitely kill some raid bosses after some practice as well.

Solitude.2097:

but why not waste some money , for an extra 6% participation ? :P)

The real question is if raids have been a “waste of money” for Arenanet or not. The latter seems more likely after their latest statements and development process.
The arguments are not on your side.

Solitude.2097:

Feanor.2358:

Solitude.2097:

They can remove the enrage mechanics from each boss , so even ppl with soldier gears can kill it , painfully slow , and a 25 min restored HP to avoid any exploits .

I’ve said it multiple times, enrage is extremely unlikely cause of wipe. If you can’t kill the boss, it’s because you fail mechanics, not because you lack dps. You don’t need minmaxed builds with perfect rotations to meet the dps checks. You don’t need anything close to that, provided you don’t fail at mechanics.

And what is the problem again ?
Without a enrage mechanics , it will remove the sociological effec that atleast you must have some specs to boost the dps/survibility of the party , or having to worry of that 15 min benchmark .
Even if you can do the Raids with Knights gear atm , then ppl will choose to inv ppl with Berseker gear (just like dungeons ) , but atleast every1 can take thier time to play as they want without the ‘’bitter effect in their mouth’’ .
They wont be able to beat the last boss (beucase they will take their time , and the madness effects will stack up) , while the last tier 1 madness boss can have a chance to drop some prestigious Weapon Skin for the l33t players + massive gold for completing the Raid as fast as posible

Heck … the guilds can summon the 10(+1) stacked end boss for a single fight , if they want the loot faster .
Or allow 2 guilds to compete in a same time ’’Tournament’’ , while they see each other as dots to get comfused

(edit: regadles of what we do or think , most ppl wont touch the Raids even in the next x-pack , because that feeling of ’’despise’’ once tasted , it wont wash off …. but why not waste some money , for an extra 6% participation ? :P)

The problem is removing enrage timers will do nothing.

Inexperienced parties will keep wiping long before the enrage because they’ll keep failing mechanics.

Experienced parties will keep requiring meta builds because they’ll keep wanting smooth and fast clears.

Then we must remove the experienced ppl from the equation (just like Dungeons + Fractals) and put a ‘’hard block’’on the liquid rewards they can earn per month from the HoT raids , or put them on 2-week cooldown when completed (killing the end boss) .
It will push them to the newly expanion .

Theres a 15% chance that new casuals ppl will stick to the HoT raids to kill the most easy bosses on a daily farm routine , or avoid them entirely for more simplier actions in the next expansion .

Or they can transform them into daily minigames in LA portal ( as a trainning wheel or so that the design wont get wasted) , replacing them bosses with adorable-cuddly small forms that have the same pattern of attacks but in 3 stages/difficulty that the players must fullfil to complete it , while your auto-attack shoots cuddly hearts and the rest of attacks offer Healing + Protection to your team8s only

And by completing it , he will give you quest that will sent you to kill a dailly easy boss in the Raid , while offering you 150 stats in your primary atributes (to meet the stat difference between the exotic-ascendant gear) for the l33t players that insist that you must have ascendant , before joining