Guild Wars 2

http://gwscr.com/

Hello;

Lately; there has been a lot of drama around how this community is doing records, and how they should be performed/judged. I came up with a rule set that was adequate for a time, but as of late people have realized that we were too lenient in what we allowed, and now times are becoming rather noncompetitive or not fun to watch.

So I have this proposition: We will host two record categories. (The names are kind of arbitrary at this point, if someone has a title for a category, feel free to put it forward).

‘Full Run’ – All pathways that block progress through the path must be opened. No consumables allowed other than Nourishment/Food. No entering ‘out of bounds’.

This category will cater to the people who wish to show off their skill, as I believe it will weed out all of the ‘nasty’ exploits that exist in paths.

‘Any %’ – Complete the path. Any and all consumables are allowed.

Self-explanatory, mostly. Finish the path using whatever tactics/tricks you have available to you. Mostly for showing off some funny stuff or for people who don’t mind the use of whatever is available in the game.

We will change the timing rule. The timer will start once anyone in the party either activates an ability, or moves/turns within the dungeon. This means that when preparing to start; you will get your party to enter the dungeon, and no one press anything on their mouse/keyboard until you’re ready to start your run. This is just a suggested change; I still feel that our current timing method is fine and achieves what it was supposed to, but I have no qualms with changing it to this timing method.

If/when we implement these changes; the entire leaderboard will be wiped. All existing records will have to be redone to meet the new rules, if guilds wish to see their time on the board(s).

Basically, I need input from anyone who cares at all about having a competitive speed run scene. If people support this idea, I can have it up and running this weekend. Please feel free to put forward any suggestions you may have, or ask any questions.

Thanks.

@Mods, please don’t move this to linksville. This is relevant to the dungeons and the dungeon community alone. If you want to remove the external site advertising, then do that, rather than moving the thread.

Just a question on the "Full Run category. If you skip a door for example, but only one of you skips it to start something furtur along the path while the rest of the party stays back and completes an event which eventually opens the door, would that be allowed? Since technically at the end of the dungeon the door was opened and all the proper events in the dungeon were completed, it was just skipped initially.

This is a fabulous site. Also cool about the new rules. Doesn’t apply to me, I ain’t no speed runner! But it is really neat!

Thanksssss

Delay.6908:

Just a question on the "Full Run category. If you skip a door for example, but only one of you skips it to start something furtur along the path while the rest of the party stays back and completes an event which eventually opens the door, would that be allowed? Since technically at the end of the dungeon the door was opened and all the proper events in the dungeon were completed, it was just skipped initially.

This is something that we can discuss, because I don’t particularly have an opinion on it.

Ok was just wondering, and personally i like the idea of the two different categories, i think it would work better then our current system, at least for the “none exploit” runs to be given some recognition.

It was about time.

deSade.9437:

It was about time.

deSade.9437:

It was about time.

I’ll wait for the euros to wake up and see what they have to say, since you guys aren’t particularly helpful.

But while we’re at it:

Fractals leaderboard. I don’t know how to categorize this. Having a leaderboard for every fractal level would be a pain, so I have two ideas. A ‘record’ for each agony bracket starting from 30. i.e. 30-39. 40-49, etc. Or we could simply just use 49 as the standard.

Again, let me know if you have any ideas or want to support an idea/tell me I’m stupid.

i didnt have time to write my opinion on gwscr during the past few days.
so i will just leave it here:

i think for full runs embers and ogre pets should be allowed. there is no reason to remove them in my opinion. they help you with mightstacking etc… i dont see any problem with them.
harpy feathers should be banned because as long as they are allowed there is no reason to use a thief for runs. but i dont really care about banning all of them.

town clothes: should be banned of course

map glitches (swimming under the dungeon, jumping over the ceiling and so on should be clearly forbidden)

for the timer thing:
in my opinion we could have dungeon path specific rules.
for example in arah, at the beginning of every path a gate opens. i think that would be a better point to start the timer. the same could be used for ac,ta,coe……
for dungeons like hotw the timer should start right after you have chosen the path.

thanks for this step cookie.

Wait… are you actually giving me the permission to insult you? :O Nah I won’t. Maybe.
I don’t know what else there is to define, it was discussed ad nauseam.
It’s quite auspicable that legit runs start with the first steps/skills into the instance since path selection and mobs engaging times are different from one dungeon to another … and this was already discussed. Thank Chtulhu we got there.
Pot + nourishment should be the only food allowed and this was already discussed/settled. It seems perfectly fair and reasonable to do so, because some consumables are being clearly abused.
It was about time legit runs got separated from the 1 minute runs skipping all over the map because, frankly, they were a bit depressing to watch. I’m sure many have told you that. Noooo I don’t want to start an argument on the legitimacy or exploits or not, have mercy on my soul, plox.
What can I say, I’ll sleep over it and try to think of something that hasn’t been brought up a few times already… I doubt I’ll succeed.
Oh, I’d take 49 runs for groups and maybe all the other agony brackets for solo. Does the site support nice solos?
… I’d give legit runs much more recognition and valor over the borderline exploit runs, but that’s just me.
I’d get rid of all the exploits that involve walking around the map, obviously, even if only one player is doing it to, say, unlock a waypointCoElookingatyou

We have the ability to support whatever people want to see. People have to tell me though, and it has to an idea that the community can get behind.

Right now, myself and the Administrator are working on 3 different things:

Revamping the current dungeon leaderboard and rules.
Fractal Leaderboard.
Other Records (Mainly boss kills and such).

The other records is taking a while because we’re struggling to come up with a good way to design the table, but hopefully with a bit of cooperation from people here, we can have the other two up within the week.

@Trigger; I don’t think it’s fair to ban consumables selectively. I think the best way is to ban all consumables from one type of run (excluding food/nourishment). It’s also best to have a consistent timing scheme across all dungeons and paths, rather than unique timers.

im ok with your ideas. these were just a few suggestions.

Hmmmmm… I think making seperate categories is fine, but I do feel like this would make practically every record we have fall in between the two extremes, if the second cat. Allows arah jumping puzzles for example. Then again, you said that already x.x

I really like those changes because then we have runs which represent real world runs and not some arbitrary rule set.

But I think a ruling about FGS should be made because that’s quite popular topic.

I didn’t really want to bring up matters like FGS, because I don’t see any real conclusion coming from it. Perhaps guilds could have a ’gentleman’s agreement’ for particular records? I don’t see it being too likely that we’d be able to come up with a rule to, for good reason or not, restrict FGS.

Also Sandy, I’m not too sure what you mean. The idea is to seperate records between runs that use any trick in the book, and ones that stay pretty clean. I still stand by my stance of “It’s impossible to simply ban all exploits”, so I think this is the best way to keep runs competitive and within the expectations of what you would call a ‘legit’ run.

I’m not a speed runner, but I’d feel the system is flawed if “light” exploits are accepted in the “full run”. I call light exploits the possibility to skip CoE’s doors, for instances which impacts only one member of the party, but not all. ArenaNet already proved they don’t want this kind of actions as they removed the possibility for thieves to do so in the past. Now some other classes can do similar actions, but the intent of ArenaNet is clearly they shouldn’t. Also, Jumping Puzzles like TA’s should be removed from that category.

Why do such a distinction? Because people who do it actually know it’s borderline (often on the wrong side of the line) and because the “full run” will be a race that can go through time where runs with exploits (even minors) cannot be matched again. If you want world records to be a challenge over time, this is the kind of actions needed.

Another possibility is to describe the exact parcour for each path with checkpoints like “the whole party must wait for the door to naturally open”. Then if eles/mesmers want to port behind it while the door is open at 1%, let them do so.

Can add an amendment which states ‘Any member(s) of the party may not pass a blocked passage, until the required sequence has been completed’?

That may be worded poorly, but it should make sense.

edit: ok, you just edited.

I think it would be good to try and make such an agreement about fgs use yeah. It’s not relevant to me whether or not it is seen as an exploit, I think that it’s important to keep this as ‘legit’ just because it supports multi class runs, and I think many can agree that this is more fun to watch than adding more warriors.

Also, ele takes quite s bit of skill to play aside from fgs from what I’ve heard. I’ll discuss with HC, from what I know they’re the only ones that disagreed before.

Edited. Let’s keep the discussion going! What else do people think needs to be touched on?

Wethospu introduced the topic of FGS. Does someone have a good argument why the use of this should be banned? In it’s current state, I personally can’t think of a legit reason to ban it from the ‘full run’ category, I feel like it would have to be left up to a gentleman’s agreement.

Wethospu.6437:

I really like those changes because then we have runs which represent real world runs and not some arbitrary rule set.

But I think a ruling about FGS should be made because that’s quite popular topic.

GW1 System, timer starts with loading screen/everyone loaded. Everything and anything allowed, except for third party programs.

The problem with this: once a used skill/consumeable gets banned, the record gets invalid. Might create a section of “totally legit all-meta record”, which would only be reset by profession overhauls.

Dub.1273:

Wethospu.6437:

I really like those changes because then we have runs which represent real world runs and not some arbitrary rule set.

But I think a ruling about FGS should be made because that’s quite popular topic.

GW1 System, timer starts with loading screen/everyone loaded. Everything and anything allowed, except for third party programs.

The problem with this: once a used skill/consumeable gets banned, the record gets invalid. Might create a section of “totally legit all-meta record”, which would only be reset by profession overhauls.

We tried this system (timer was different), and people didn’t like what was happening with consumables and exploits. Hence this thread, going for ruleset 2.0.

These changes seems nice

Also Cookie, I think one of HC’s leaders contacted most of the speed running guilds to organise a meeting about the rules (@Sandy, not sure you were contacted yet since you didn’t come online yesterday). I think this is a good idea and you should attend as well since you hold the record website.

About FGS, as I previously said, the only exploit I see with it is the Fiery Rush + Blink which bug out the animation. I have no problem using it against a wall.

For the “full legit run”, I’d remove the racial skills, just like we don’t have those in PvP.

@Jerem – Personally; I’ve chosen to withdraw to an impartial position of just being an organizer. If you guys can agree on rules that are rational and aren’t inconsistent (rules should be the same for all dungeons), then I don’t have many issues with whatever you guys come up with.

What I’ve suggested (+the recommended amendment from Fror) is how I think would be the easiest way to do it, and how to keep the most amount of people happy.

Jeremlloyd.6837:

(@Sandy, not sure you were contacted yet since you didn’t come online yesterday).

ONE day I’m not online, ONE kitten day and this happens xD

Other idea: use the term “full legit run” instead of full run, to be able to remove a run a posteriori that uses an exploit.

Fror.2163:

Other idea: use the term “full legit run” instead of full run, to be able to remove a run a posteriori that uses an exploit.

‘Legit Rules’ vs. ‘Any rules’?

As I mentioned, if anyone has titles they think fit the rule sets well, feel free to suggest.

Yes, that seems to fit better. I dunno what others think of it, but as a watcher I’m more impressed by a fastest run under “legit rules” than under “any rules”.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

@Trigger; I don’t think it’s fair to ban consumables selectively. I think the best way is to ban all consumables from one type of run (excluding food/nourishment). It’s also best to have a consistent timing scheme across all dungeons and paths, rather than unique timers.

I would be in favour of selectively banning consumables which are basically “too good to be working as intented” and in ideal world where anet has dungeon team or at least cares about them those consumables would be nerfed (fixed) with high probability in the near future. Consumables like feathers and embers would fit in that category because they have no cooldowns. On the other hand, for consumables like both spy kits and pet ogre whistles which cooldowns were nerfed or had cooldowns from the start I would assume that any nerf that would affect them even in our ideal world is highly unlikely.

I know it might be hard to follow this rule but it should guarantee that any future run that would want to stay as “legit” will be seen as such.

Anet Rules VS Brazil’s Rules

A few suggestions for legit speed runs.
- No special consumables. No pets, no environmental weapons or utilities. Only food and potions are ok.
- Fiery Rush is allowed only if it is used normally – not against a wall and not concentrated to a single point with a teleport skill. GS’s Whirlwind against a wall is ok.
- Do events in order. Most obvious example is CoE – causing Spire to revive/port by pre-killing Alpha is out of the question.
- Mesmer portals are allowed only if the mesmer got to the portal exit location without using any terrain / event exploits.

Timing change is a good change. Separating categories is also good. However i dont think things like fgs and minor exploits should be disallowed in the full runs. For example I feel like the jumping over doors in CoE is interesting and something you can use in a full run. Aslong as you dont go out of the map or through textures with blinks i think its fine. The CoE jumps are literally leaps over gaps above the door and so they dont really feel like proper exploits to me.

I also agree with haviz on banning certain op consumables (harpy feathers). I dont feel like embers are in that category though. Thats just my opinion.

Ban all consumables, ban Fiery Exploit Sword, ban DPS traits, ban Zerpberper armor, ban melee weapons, every mob in the dungeon must be killed

TheMaskedParadigm.3629:

Ban all consumables, ban Fiery Exploit Sword, ban DPS traits, ban Zerpberper armor, ban melee weapons, every mob in the dungeon must be killed

I’d like to nominate this run to take the #1 spot then.

frifox.5283:

- Fiery Rush is allowed only if it is used normally – not against a wall and not concentrated to a single point with a teleport skill. GS’s Whirlwind against a wall is ok.

I never really got this distinction, is rush less legit cause it does more damage? Or is there another reason?

Sanderinoa.8065:

I never really got this distinction, is rush less legit cause it does more damage? Or is there another reason?

Ban Hundert Klingen, it does way too much damage.

Ban Ogre runes. Rock Dog Op.

haviz.1340:

Sanderinoa.8065:

I never really got this distinction, is rush less legit cause it does more damage? Or is there another reason?

Ban Hundert Klingen, it does way too much damage.

Fun sidenote there, she was the warrior in my initial 80 fractals team

Sanderinoa.8065:

Fun sidenote there, she was the warrior in my initial 80 fractals team

I knew you were “not playing as intented”, to not use an “e” word.

welcome back to the forum haviz

Sanderinoa.8065:

frifox.5283:

- Fiery Rush is allowed only if it is used normally – not against a wall and not concentrated to a single point with a teleport skill. GS’s Whirlwind against a wall is ok.

I never really got this distinction, is rush less legit cause it does more damage? Or is there another reason?

Basically, yes. It does absurd amount of damage in just a few seconds compared to any other skill in the game. The only thing I can think of that could be considered from the same “class” are mesmer feedback (or reflects in general) and mimic skills. The difference is those skills are reactive and pull off insane damage only in a very few situations while Fiery Rush can be applied to just about every encounter in the game. That’s when it starts all to come down to who can prestack might and press 4 better rather than who can pull off the best skill rotation for best dps with their native weapons.

For “anything goes” speed runs fgs and exploits are welcome. I only suggest disallowing them for the legit runs.

If FGS gets banned (not my opinion) reflection should get banned too.
I wouldn’t ban any skill or mechanic like fgs-4-teleports. Not even racial skills.

Just one example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jv3_7SzSgo

In my opinion if you go for full clean records ban every consumable even food and potions. Less damage multipliers result in faster times compared to less skilled teams.

Yeah I’m not sure how a less skilled team with potions should pull off more damage than a skilled team with the same consumables…
More multipliers=less damage? Someone hand me a dictionary, can’t get out of it.

I think hes trying to say the time difference will be more noticable if you exclude op consumables. Which kind of makes sense because instead of skilled team kills in 8 seconds and unskilled kills in 10 seconds. You get skilled team kills in 15 seconds and unskilled kills in 20 seconds. I could just be talking crap. I dont know. Just trying to make sense of it. xD

Hm I see. Then the question is if one should consider potions as op. I frankly doubt they are.
On the other hand, stealth and summoning consumables… there are so many, for the sake of rules and moderation they should be banned.
Good guy spoj being a translator n’ sheet. Have to go now… I’ll log in 3hrs and a half or so don’t do dungeons without me! I give you the permission to do Hotw though.

I think all speed runs should be done in Cleric’s just to show how hardcore you are.

Apparently there was a meeting between the euros while I was asleep, did anything come of it?

Currently, the rules as I have them would look like this:

‘Legit Rules’:

1.) For a record to be valid, the time must be faster than the current record displayed and the record must be accompanied by a video for evidence/proof; one point of view is sufficient.

Additional guidelines for your videos:

a. Videos may not be sped up or slowed down, and must be captured in normal time.

b) To strengthen your submission you can also include in-game audio with your videos (so viewers can hear the speed at which the sounds happen) and record in high quality so that skill animations can be viewed clearly.

c. You can also type /age at the start, and /age again at the end of the video. This way, viewers will be able to determine the total time spent by subtracting the growth in your account age.

2.) The records timer starts when any party member activates a skill or moves their model. This includes but is not limited to: taking a step, turning, jumping, etc. Using emotes will not result in the timer starting.

3.) The timer stops when the final boss of the dungeon has been killed.
3a.) If the end fight is completed in a method which results in no completion of the dungeon, the record is void.

5.) All pathways that are designed to block progress through the path must be opened. You may not have any party member(s) get past blocked passages until the required sequence/dialogue has been completed.

6.) Consumables (excluding food/nourishment) are banned.

7.) If any party member(s) at any point enter ‘out of bounds’ on a dungeon map, the time will be void.

8.) The record system is founded on trust. Please do not attempt to fake videos, i.e.: Editing them, using DC tricks to manipulate the in-game events, etc. All we have is third-party proof and no real way to verify your accomplishments. Because of this, some people may, and will fake records. If a record appears to be fake, feel free to follow up with your own posts in its thread debating its legitimacy.

9.) No use of gem store boosters/items. This includes but is not limited to Strength/Armor boosters and instant trait resets.

10.) Have fun, and good luck

There was one?