Guild Wars 2

Fermi.2409:

And yet I’ve never had issues with the burrows, and can’t remember the last time I failed then. Even the really bad group I had tonight pulled them off on the first to, albeit with some struggling.

So they were struggling, and yet you find it hard to imagine that other groups managed to fail?

That does not make sense.

I cannot imagine anyone failing since the scaling rework. Unless they literally afk’d and left one person to fail at soloing.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

You have got to be kidding me. This has happened to me countless times, and I can’t be alone. Why is it that whenever someone brings up a story from their own experience, and others disagree with it, they immediately yell out that it’s a made up story?

Seriously.

Quite often when I join any PUG, I’m usually the last one standing when it comes to those darn burrows. People either lack DPS, or lack survivability. Either way, the pug wipes, and I can’t clear them by myself. Then with much nagging, and with sometimes some stubborn player who refuses to change his build rage quiting, we finally manage to get one of the eles to bring frostbow, and then we finally pull it off.

You’re the common denominator. Figure it out.

NikeEU.7690:

The combat system isn’t shallow, but some of the encounters are. And lastly, there is as much build variety in the meta as there was in GW1.

No there is not! And stop saying that, you have no idea what you are talking about. You are embarrassing yourself. I need only look at my GINORMOUS list of necromancer builds for GW1, and see how HUGE the difference in build variety is. See the picture below.

I looked at the picture.

1. Almost none of those are “meta” builds. Most of them are PHIW garbage. Which is fine, but stop passing them off as meta.
2. Many of them are boss specific builds. I would make a similar thing for gw2 where I change builds up for particular encounters. I wouldn’t call tweaking a build for a specific scenario a new build.

There was SO much more to combat in GW1, than there is to the current combat in GW2. There was aggro control, disenchanting, buffing, protection, interrupts, hexing, damage, bodyblocking, kiting, use of height difference, energy denial, conditions. And all of those mechanics had a purpose in PVE and PVP.

GW1 combat was all about layering defense. Since there was no active defense besides a highly skilled prot monk in pvp, the best strategy was to overload on passive defense. 99% of encounters in pve could be beaten by having one DPS class being buffed to the moon by 7 support thanks to insanely high layered defense.

That does not happen in GW2. And shame on you for even thinking that there is the same build variety. There objectively is not.

If you played the game on a higher level you’d know that people tweak their builds for each encounter. You admit as much that you fail on AC burrows so please stop insinuating that you even have a rudimentary understanding of what experienced players do.

spoj.9672:

I cannot imagine anyone failing since the scaling rework. Unless they literally afk’d and left one person to fail at soloing.

sometimes ill go kill the 2 right side burrows, you know the 1 that spawns in almost the middle, then the one right after it that spawns in the back corner room… solo… and then i look for the 3rd burrow on that side, and it isnt spawned. and 2 of the other party members are already dead while the other 2 are just getting overwhelmed from the burrow i spawned on them by killing the one in the back corner. and theres a group of gravelings running at whatshisname. and before i can do anything, hes dead and “we” failed.

some people are just entirely clueless. that room is how i really know im in a bad party, but by then the path is more than half over and i wont have to carry much longer, cuz the 5 scepter pieces are pretty easy to solo (when i dont suck at dodging, but then again 3 people help in that kind of party) and the final boss isnt hard when you walk in circles around him and dont fight away from the fire rings.

NikeEU.7690:

1. Almost none of those are “meta” builds. Most of them are PHIW garbage. Which is fine, but stop passing them off as meta.

Do you have even half that number of builds for any given class in GW2?

NikeEU.7690:

2. Many of them are boss specific builds. I would make a similar thing for gw2 where I change builds up for particular encounters. I wouldn’t call tweaking a build for a specific scenario a new build.

I have never had to change my build for any boss in GW2.

NikeEU.7690:

GW1 combat was all about layering defense. Since there was no active defense besides a highly skilled prot monk in pvp, the best strategy was to overload on passive defense. 99% of encounters in pve could be beaten by having one DPS class being buffed to the moon by 7 support thanks to insanely high layered defense.

Most boss battles in GW1 were a lot more complicated than that. Besides, lets not forget roles and aggro management.

NikeEU.7690:

If you played the game on a higher level you’d know that people tweak their builds for each encounter. You admit as much that you fail on AC burrows so please stop insinuating that you even have a rudimentary understanding of what experienced players do.

Oh wow, get off your throne please.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I have never had to change my build for any boss in GW2.

I was able to run everything kitten with Sabway/Discord Heroes and never really had the need to change my build, or those of my heroes for that matter. Does that mean it’s always the most effective setup for a situation? No. You can always make minor tweaks to get through faster, like using EoE in GW1 if you knew there were many mobs of the same type.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I have never had to change my build for any boss in GW2.

what class(es) do you play? have you never done something like… switch to elixir U for ac p2 end boss orrrr se p1 3 champs cuz party has no guardian?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

NikeEU.7690:

1. Almost none of those are “meta” builds. Most of them are PHIW garbage. Which is fine, but stop passing them off as meta.

Do you have even half that number of builds for any given class in GW2?

Depends. Does switching a trait or two count? Does switching a utility skill count? I’ll bet you say no, but I’ll also bet many of your GW1 builds are just minor variations of each other too.

NikeEU.7690:

2. Many of them are boss specific builds. I would make a similar thing for gw2 where I change builds up for particular encounters. I wouldn’t call tweaking a build for a specific scenario a new build.

I have never had to change my build for any boss in GW2.

And I can beat every instance in GW1 with Mesmer/Ritway without changing whats your point?

NikeEU.7690:

GW1 combat was all about layering defense. Since there was no active defense besides a highly skilled prot monk in pvp, the best strategy was to overload on passive defense. 99% of encounters in pve could be beaten by having one DPS class being buffed to the moon by 7 support thanks to insanely high layered defense.

Most boss battles in GW1 were a lot more complicated than that. Besides, lets not forget roles and aggro management.

I ran in. I took aggro. My team’s healers and spirit spam keep be alive. Stuff dies. Wow so complicated.

NikeEU.7690:

If you played the game on a higher level you’d know that people tweak their builds for each encounter. You admit as much that you fail on AC burrows so please stop insinuating that you even have a rudimentary understanding of what experienced players do.

Oh wow, get off your throne please.

It’s a valid commentary. When I watch top players of any game I don’t understand play, I am 100% sure I miss all the nuance and depth of their game play. I don’t know why you think you’re different or why GW2 is different.

The burrows are pretty hard to fail these days. I think the only times we’ve struggled with them since the NPE/ferocity changes are:

1) Low-manning with a bad party composition.
2) Playing with snowflakes, for example: rangers who insist that their setup is fine for the encounter, because “shortbow pierces”
3) Playing with inexperienced people who run to Hodgins to fight gravelings, but just attract more and more of them.

Can’t really complain about (1), that how it works if you want to have the challenge of a poorly designed lowman run. (2) is annoying. Nothing to do but keep trying or kick. When (3) happens, it’s my fault for not explaining that “defending hodgins” doesn’t actually involve actively defending him (or their fault for not letting us know that they’re new).

Sounds like one or more inexperienced people must have been on the team for that to fail. As pointed out above, weapon choice makes a huge difference, and folks who are used to openworld PvE have never had a build decision actual affect their gameplay before, so rangers gonn’ range >.<

Its clearly not damage thats the issue that is causing the burrows to fail so….

Just kite, seriously… you can kite indefinitely as long as they don’t ALL die.

I remember in guild wars 1 there was a story mission where there was a mark of protection healer stone summit boss that was impossible to kill if you lacked DPS. DPS checks existed in both games. Hell even guild wars 1 had a limit to how much “play how you want” you can do. You certainly can not beat story missions with monks, Spiteful spirit solo necros, shadow form tera assassins, vengeful was khanhei w/rt in your party.

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

I was able to run everything kitten with Sabway/Discord Heroes and never really had the need to change my build, or those of my heroes for that matter. Does that mean it’s always the most effective setup for a situation? No. You can always make minor tweaks to get through faster, like using EoE in GW1 if you knew there were many mobs of the same type.

There were definitely areas in GW1 that you would not get through, unless the entire party specifically tailored its build for that area. Take for example Mallyx the Unyielding, who took quite a while to figure out. At first people were exploiting bugs, just to beat him, till eventually people figured out a way to do it. So no, I don’t think this holds up. Same with the Aatxe in the Underworld, for which you needed protection to survive their heavy hitting attacks.

insanemaniac.2456:

what class(es) do you play? have you never done something like… switch to elixir U for ac p2 end boss orrrr se p1 3 champs cuz party has no guardian?

I play necromancer exclusively. Granted, we don’t have a whole lot of builds to choose from.

NikeEU.7690:

Depends. Does switching a trait or two count? Does switching a utility skill count? I’ll bet you say no, but I’ll also bet many of your GW1 builds are just minor variations of each other too.

Depends. Some of the DWG or SS builds have a few skills switched around. But overall they are all pretty different. But keep in mind that in GW1 switching out one skill makes a far bigger difference than it does in GW2. In GW1 the skills ARE your build.

NikeEU.7690:

And I can beat every instance in GW1 with Mesmer/Ritway without changing whats your point?

GW2 does not make demands for specific builds. GW1 does.

NikeEU.7690:

I ran in. I took aggro. My team’s healers and spirit spam keep be alive. Stuff dies. Wow so complicated.

That is a lot more than you have in GW2. GW2 does not have inter class dependency.

NikeEU.7690:

It’s a valid commentary. When I watch top players of any game I don’t understand play, I am 100% sure I miss all the nuance and depth of their game play. I don’t know why you think you’re different or why GW2 is different.

You are suggesting that I am not at the top of my game in PVE, and that I have only a rudimentary understanding of the game. That is a childish, and offensive thing to say, and not really any argument what so ever.

EcoRI.9273:

I remember in guild wars 1 there was a story mission where there was a mark of protection healer stone summit boss that was impossible to kill if you lacked DPS.

Nonsense. In GW1 you can shatter any enchantment. This is exactly what gave GW1 more depth to its combat. You could adapt (and often had to adapt) your build to a particular encounter.

Same with fighting Glint back in Prophecies. If you didn’t interrupt her Crystal Hybernation, you could be in for a very long haul. Same with Kanaxai in the Deep, where you had to knock him down, and had to remove his enchantment.

This is something GW2 does not do. You are not ever required to bring specific skills.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

EcoRI.9273:

I remember in guild wars 1 there was a story mission where there was a mark of protection healer stone summit boss that was impossible to kill if you lacked DPS.

Nonsense. In GW1 you can shatter any enchantment. This is exactly what gave GW1 more depth to its combat. You could adapt (and often had to adapt) your build to a particular encounter.

Same with fighting Glint back in Prophecies. If you didn’t interrupt her Crystal Hybernation, you could be in for a very long haul. Same with Kanaxai in the Deep, where you had to knock him down, and had to remove his enchantment.

This is something GW2 does not do. You are not ever required to bring specific skills.

I hate it when I do story mission with random players, only to find out that we are not doing enough collective dps as a group to kill the boss. Either they have too little offense in their build, or their survivability is so poor, or they didn’t bring this specific skill to make the encounter easier that they are eating dirt in mere seconds. I don’t even think it’s a case of them being bad players. They just happen to have a build that does not maximize damage enough for them or have a key skill to finish the story mission.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Nonsense. In GW1 you can shatter any enchantment. This is exactly what gave GW1 more depth to its combat. You could adapt (and often had to adapt) your build to a particular encounter.

Same with fighting Glint back in Prophecies. If you didn’t interrupt her Crystal Hybernation, you could be in for a very long haul. Same with Kanaxai in the Deep, where you had to knock him down, and had to remove his enchantment.

This is something GW2 does not do. You are not ever required to bring specific skills.

You could adapt (and often had to adapt) your build to a particular encounter.

Same with fighting abomination back in arah p2. If you didn’t interrupt her Enrage, you could be in for a very long haul. Same with Ginva the butcher in hotw p1, where you had to destroy totems, and had to remove his enchantments either with mesmer or thief sword/dagger.

This is something GW2 does do.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

NikeEU.7690:

It’s a valid commentary. When I watch top players of any game I don’t understand play, I am 100% sure I miss all the nuance and depth of their game play. I don’t know why you think you’re different or why GW2 is different.

You are suggesting that I am not at the top of my game in PVE, and that I have only a rudimentary understanding of the game. That is a childish, and offensive thing to say, and not really any argument what so ever.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I play necromancer exclusively.

Maybe the problem is, you play “exclusively necro”, a class which is infamous for its lack of team utility, and thus you don’t understand the nuances of playing a class with lots of team utility like guard, or mes? “There’s something incredibly boring about tweaking your character to only maximize the damage output.” – any good fractal guardian player would laugh at that statement. For any given fight you have to choose whether to prioritize blocks, stability uptime, reflect uptime, condition cleanse, or full offense. This includes triats, utilities and weapon choices. Mesmer is similar, but you also are responsible for boon stripping in cases like ettin for harpy fractal, molten facility, dredge, etc.

You’re also using a dps check encounter in a lvl 35 dungeon that is 2 years old as your primary example in assessing the depth of the combat system. I think everyone would agree its a pretty shallow and boring encounter. But its not really representative of higher-end pve where minmaxing is someone relevant. Fractals, ta aether – that’s the direction anet’s development has taken, and the encounters in those dungeons demand a much broader range of defense and utility then any of the at-launch dungeons.

insanemaniac.2456:

what class(es) do you play? have you never done something like… switch to elixir U for ac p2 end boss orrrr se p1 3 champs cuz party has no guardian?

I play necromancer exclusively. Granted, we don’t have a whole lot of builds to choose from.

— I think this explains why this person has a limited rosy view of the world.
Get out an obsession with death or the dead. — necromaniac and explore the world !

I play multiple classes: guardian, war, thief, ele, necro etc – and I realise just how bad necro is when compared to the other classes.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I hate it when I do AC with random players, only to find out that we are not doing enough collective power as a group to destroy the burrows in time. Either they have too little offense in their build, or their survivability is so poor, that they are eating dirt in mere seconds. I don’t even think it’s a case of them being bad players. They just happen to have a build that does not maximize damage enough for them to finish the dungeon.

I consider myself a pretty average-skilled player, and I haven’t had issues with this encounter since the AC revamp. Honestly, if you are consistently having issues with this encounter, it’s probably at least partially your fault.

rfdarko.4639:

Maybe the problem is, you play “exclusively necro”, a class which is infamous for its lack of team utility, and thus you don’t understand the nuances of playing a class with lots of team utility like guard, or mes? “There’s something incredibly boring about tweaking your character to only maximize the damage output.” – any good fractal guardian player would laugh at that statement. For any given fight you have to choose whether to prioritize blocks, stability uptime, reflect uptime, condition cleanse, or full offense. This includes triats, utilities and weapon choices. Mesmer is similar, but you also are responsible for boon stripping in cases like ettin for harpy fractal, molten facility, dredge, etc.

You’re also using a dps check encounter in a lvl 35 dungeon that is 2 years old as your primary example in assessing the depth of the combat system. I think everyone would agree its a pretty shallow and boring encounter. But its not really representative of higher-end pve where minmaxing is someone relevant. Fractals, ta aether – that’s the direction anet’s development has taken, and the encounters in those dungeons demand a much broader range of defense and utility then any of the at-launch dungeons.

This and then some. As a main guardian, I change my build frequently to make sure I have the best tools to keep my group on its feet and not taking a dirt nap. Could I run the same build in ever encounter? Yes. I did this before we could re-trait for every fight, I had to make due with what small changes I could make to my build. But now that I can change my entire build out side of combat I do, and it has improved my game alot.

I suppose I could still be ok if I didn’t, but why would I settle for ok. When it would be more efficient to make changes to traits/utilities/weapons make me better at my job?

Windsagio.1340:

The main reason, I’ve usually felt, is that people are aggressive and nasty about pushing min/max attitudes and are severely exclusionary.

It’s not necessarily rational, but nobody likes being excluded, and double nobody likes being insulted (being called bad, foolish, etc) for not playing to some Type-A personality’s version of the game.

Amen brother! Too much l33t attitude being shown by people. It scares away newer and more casual players and keeps the whole community from being friendly. If a player doesn’t play enough to have all ascended berserker gear, it doesn’t mean they should be shunned or insulted. They may actually have a life. Be welcoming to all players and support each other

Derenek.8931:

Windsagio.1340:

The main reason, I’ve usually felt, is that people are aggressive and nasty about pushing min/max attitudes and are severely exclusionary.

It’s not necessarily rational, but nobody likes being excluded, and double nobody likes being insulted (being called bad, foolish, etc) for not playing to some Type-A personality’s version of the game.

Amen brother! Too much l33t attitude being shown by people. It scares away newer and more casual players and keeps the whole community from being friendly. If a player doesn’t play enough to have all ascended berserker gear, it doesn’t mean they should be shunned or insulted. They may actually have a life. Be welcoming to all players and support each other

You will find that the dungeon community as a whole is very friendly and cool. No one here joins a group that wishes to fully clear a dungeon and tells them they can’t or not to play the way they wish to. However on the other side there are nearly a dozen post in about how our game mode should be changed because people simply do not like it or it doesn’t fit their ideal or more commonly they do not understand it.

What happens is advice is offered, if ask. Which happens here alot: Case in point https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Explorable-Mode-Dungeons-vs-a-noob-myself/first#post5031971

We live and let live. I won’t invade your group and tell you want to do or how to play. All I ask is that you give me the same treatment and we will be the best of friends.

Talyn.3295:

Derenek.8931:

Windsagio.1340:

The main reason, I’ve usually felt, is that people are aggressive and nasty about pushing min/max attitudes and are severely exclusionary.

It’s not necessarily rational, but nobody likes being excluded, and double nobody likes being insulted (being called bad, foolish, etc) for not playing to some Type-A personality’s version of the game.

Amen brother! Too much l33t attitude being shown by people. It scares away newer and more casual players and keeps the whole community from being friendly. If a player doesn’t play enough to have all ascended berserker gear, it doesn’t mean they should be shunned or insulted. They may actually have a life. Be welcoming to all players and support each other

You will find that the dungeon community as a whole is very friendly and cool. No one here joins a group that wishes to fully clear a dungeon and tells them they can’t or not to play the way they wish to. However on the other side there are nearly a dozen post in about how our game mode should be changed because people simply do not like it or it doesn’t fit their ideal or more commonly they do not understand it.

What happens is advice is offered, if ask. Which happens here alot: Case in point https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Explorable-Mode-Dungeons-vs-a-noob-myself/first#post5031971

We live and let live. I won’t invade your group and tell you want to do or how to play. All I ask is that you give me the same treatment and we will be the best of friends.

A lot of different things happen, and people always remember the worst.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Fermi.2409:

And yet I’ve never had issues with the burrows, and can’t remember the last time I failed then. Even the really bad group I had tonight pulled them off on the first to, albeit with some struggling.

So they were struggling, and yet you find it hard to imagine that other groups managed to fail?

That does not make sense.

It makes perfect sense. If a group that bad can manage to finish the burrows first go, who can’t?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I said that the tells on enemies in GW2 were very poor, and especially hard to see considering how dense all the particle effect spam is in the game. I compared this with a game like God of War, in which all enemies have very clear windup times and tells.

Sure, let’s make this game more similar to some other games out there. Im sure they made it better then it is in GW2 for everyone.
There is too much variety in this world, right?

Asking for better AI coding isn’t asking to be similar to other games, it’s asking to raise the standard in order to match those games.

I haven’t posted here that any player must play a certain way. What I’ve been asking for is that Anet redo their AI and level design coding in minor ways to give more depth and complexity to their game. You’ve got a fourth gen MMO with second gen AI.

Of course if the dungeons are changed, a lot of how people play the dungeons will also change. Instead if being able to rely on their gear to allow then to solo run from Point A to Point B kill one monster and grab a chest, groups will have to be more cohesive and move strategically.

For players with maxed gear who have memorized the dungeon and know all the tricks to avoid any gameplay or monster fighting I am sure that could be a pain. However for many people who want to play in a fun cohesive group where players have to work together the whole time to complete a mission it would be pretty awesome. Most of the trolls here I know have run these dungeons dozens if not hundreds of times.

Don’t you guys get tired of “pull the lever, out comes cheese… pull the lever, out comes cheese… Repeat… Etc…” You don’t want something new and challenging?

Thing is, it was a giant puzzle to find the best way to pull the lever, and we’ve still not perfected many paths. Claiming years old content is easy is kind of a “duh” moment. We’ve conquered it, we’ve written countless guides, made hundreds of videos, what makes you think that it’d still be challenging.

It sucks for new players coming in who need to learn it still, but that’s exactly why we as a community have offered a helping hand to those who are interested in learning enough to seek help.

GW2 is actually surprising in just how helpful it’s dungeon-running community is. There are so many great resources for players that want help. There’s a lot of bad to be said about the game, but its PvE community is not one of them.

Derenek.8931:

Windsagio.1340:

The main reason, I’ve usually felt, is that people are aggressive and nasty about pushing min/max attitudes and are severely exclusionary.

It’s not necessarily rational, but nobody likes being excluded, and double nobody likes being insulted (being called bad, foolish, etc) for not playing to some Type-A personality’s version of the game.

Amen brother! Too much l33t attitude being shown by people. It scares away newer and more casual players and keeps the whole community from being friendly. If a player doesn’t play enough to have all ascended berserker gear, it doesn’t mean they should be shunned or insulted. They may actually have a life. Be welcoming to all players and support each other

I guess no1 cares if your gear is exotic or ascended, as long as it is berserker.

The fact that the game lacks the holy trinity makes for special snowflake nonsense, not because the game is casual. There is no enrage timer on bosses so people assume any build is a go, just be a special snowflake.

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I have never had to change my build for any boss in GW2.

I was able to run everything kitten with Sabway/Discord Heroes and never really had the need to change my build, or those of my heroes for that matter. Does that mean it’s always the most effective setup for a situation? No. You can always make minor tweaks to get through faster, like using EoE in GW1 if you knew there were many mobs of the same type.

I’d like to see that happen. So much, that I’d pay 200g to see discordway pits, plains and wastes quest (underworld).

Nike:

Depends. Does switching a trait or two count? Does switching a utility skill count? I’ll bet you say no, but I’ll also bet many of your GW1 builds are just minor variations of each other too.

Not really, somewhat efficient teambuilds differed completely for different use cases.

Deep: 12 mixed professions, usually 2-3 necros, tank and 100b warriors, a mesmer, monks and ee bots.

Urgoz: Once again 12 mixed professions eith different builds, more mesmers but completely different to DoA.

UW: R/A, R/A, R/A or E/A, E/Me or Me/E, R/A or E/Me or D/R or D/W or Rt/R or Rt/Me or Me/R or W/R or R/Rt or N/R, D/R or D/W or Rt/R, Me/A or A/Me or Me/E or R/A, Mo/Me or E/Mo or E/Me.

FoW: D/A, D/A, D/A or D/R, A/E, A/E, A/E or E/A or R/A, R/A and I don’t know.

DoA: Mesmer overload, completely different, not sure what kind of variations there were lately.

Dungeons: Strange as kitten builds, different for most.

And these are only record run team compositions.

Harny.6012:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I said that the tells on enemies in GW2 were very poor, and especially hard to see considering how dense all the particle effect spam is in the game. I compared this with a game like God of War, in which all enemies have very clear windup times and tells.

Sure, let’s make this game more similar to some other games out there. Im sure they made it better then it is in GW2 for everyone.
There is too much variety in this world, right?

Way to go in completely missing the point. This is what you get when players pull quotes out of context, and deliberately derail the conversation. But let me remind you what the point was, with the picture at the bottom of this post.

Derenek.8931:

Asking for better AI coding isn’t asking to be similar to other games, it’s asking to raise the standard in order to match those games.

^ See? He gets it.

Derenek.8931:

What I’ve been asking for is that Anet redo their AI and level design coding in minor ways to give more depth and complexity to their game. You’ve got a fourth gen MMO with second gen AI.

My point exactly. There are higher standards in video games today. The action needs to be visible, and game play is more important than visuals. Combat needs depth and strategy, and not this 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1 spam that we see in GW2.

Derenek.8931:

Of course if the dungeons are changed, a lot of how people play the dungeons will also change. Instead if being able to rely on their gear to allow then to solo run from Point A to Point B kill one monster and grab a chest, groups will have to be more cohesive and move strategically.

I desperately want to see this happen. I long for strategic dungeons, rather than the sloppy corridors filled with mindless trash that we have now.

Derenek.8931:

However for many people who want to play in a fun cohesive group where players have to work together the whole time to complete a mission it would be pretty awesome. Most of the trolls here I know have run these dungeons dozens if not hundreds of times.

You’d think they’d get tired of these boring lazily designed corridors by now. Demand better content people! Don’t just accept the bad content, that not even the devs themselves would be proud of.

Derenek.8931:

Don’t you guys get tired of “pull the lever, out comes cheese… pull the lever, out comes cheese… Repeat… Etc…” You don’t want something new and challenging?

Some people seem highly resistant to the idea of innovation and improvement. Like vampires hissing at a ray of sunlight.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Derenek.8931:

Asking for better AI coding isn’t asking to be similar to other games, it’s asking to raise the standard in order to match those games.

^ See? He gets it.

We ask for harder content and there have been better suggestions. However ask yourself. Are you really comfortable with us still being able to beat that harder content, through Min/maxing, which is what this thread was originally about? When the rest of the community is still struggling with dungeons?

Do I have trouble with Arah? No. Does your average pug if they can’t wall Lupi? Yes.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Derenek.8931:

What I’ve been asking for is that Anet redo their AI and level design coding in minor ways to give more depth and complexity to their game. You’ve got a fourth gen MMO with second gen AI.

My point exactly. There are higher standards in video games today. The action needs to be visible, and game play is more important than visuals. Combat needs depth and strategy, and not this 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1 spam that we see in GW2.

That 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1 in this boss picture is a world Boss. And a very low level one. Would I like to see it made into a Teq? Sure I would, I would relish the challenge. Most player’s just want their loot however.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Derenek.8931:

Of course if the dungeons are changed, a lot of how people play the dungeons will also change. Instead if being able to rely on their gear to allow then to solo run from Point A to Point B kill one monster and grab a chest, groups will have to be more cohesive and move strategically.

I desperately want to see this happen. I long for strategic dungeons, rather than the sloppy corridors filled with mindless trash that we have now.

Is that going to change the Min/maxing meta? It’s a whole other animal.

You can call them sloppy corridors or deep epic vine covered jungle floors, leading to trap filled treasure hoards of rich history and a boss like Teq or Lupi guarding a legendary weapon.

Once the dungeon community knows how to burn it down they will. Then we will be right back here addressing "Well he can min/max and do it faster then I can! Fix this Anet. Its not right that I can’t do what he does in full offensive glass cannon spec with my full nomad ele.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Derenek.8931:

However for many people who want to play in a fun cohesive group where players have to work together the whole time to complete a mission it would be pretty awesome. Most of the trolls here I know have run these dungeons dozens if not hundreds of times.

You’d think they’d get tired of these boring lazily designed corridors by now. Demand better content people! Don’t just accept the bad content, that not even the devs themselves would be proud of.

We have ask for far better changes in the past. I have read far far better ideas. Not just “I don’t like stacking/min maxing so change it threads.”

We are tired of lazy content. We are tired of Bad content. But there is no dungeon team so no matter how many times a good idea comes up among all the bad ones it gets ignored.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Derenek.8931:

Don’t you guys get tired of “pull the lever, out comes cheese… pull the lever, out comes cheese… Repeat… Etc…” You don’t want something new and challenging?

Some people seem highly resistant to the idea of innovation and improvement. Like vampires hissing at a ray of sunlight.

So you lose the previous argument about builds and you latch on this as a counter move?

Of course we want a challenge. Its a matter of resources vs what is pratical and fun.

Case in point. Rising Dusk addressed most of these points earlier.

Most, not all, but most causal players have a very poor understanding of how combat in this game works. They run one class, and one class only. They don’t even really understand that one class. They just picked it cause it fits the theme they like most.

Do you remember the AC spider change?

I recall how many post I saw about pugs getting wrecked after. There were just as many post if not more from people who said this fight became to hard. The sad part? It was just as easy as it was before.

If I watch a video on Guild Wars or any other game. I ask myself a few questions,

“Why did he bring that skill/weapon/ability? How does that help him more say X ability/weapon/skill…etc”

If more people ask why, it would be better for us all.

Example. I don’t feel the need to stack any corner on my guardian. However my buddy who plays a warrior, ask if we can’t try to push things closer to the wall so that he might be able to whirl against the wall hence keeping on target instead of going through. So we do this sometimes for him. We do it to control attacks.

Its not needed cause there are other ways. But until we get something new, there is very little “end game” PvE content outside of dungeons.

We are not against the idea of Innovations or improvements. We are however against un-needed changes that won’t accomplish anything but drive new players away or will do more harm then good.

P.S. I recall two or even one year ago when the Fire Elemental fight actually lasted long enough to be fun. These days its just a box in the daily achevs that people check off when they have to. Most of those people prefer it that way. I don’t bother with it cause its no challenge and dies before I have time turn around. Its a bad example to pick for any case in Min/maxing because it was changed to be easier for players after the NPE changes. What would happen if a brand new player walked in on the Fire Elemental fight and found it like Teq?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

My point exactly. There are higher standards in video games today. The action needs to be visible, and game play is more important than visuals. Combat needs depth and strategy, and not this 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1 spam that we see in GW2.

A few points you continue to miss, intentionally or not…

1. The game isn’t 111111 at the highest level. When speed run guilds doing fast runs fight a boss there are tons of things happening at the same time. You’ve never experienced it, so it isn’t surprising to me you aren’t personally aware. However, you’ve been informed of this many times so the time to stop ignoring it is now.

2. The combat system is ridiculously deep, and many of the bosses have cool and interesting mechanics. The problem is that many of the best bosses don’t have nearly enough HP. Lupicus has about 1.44 million HP and groups have the option to EZ mode it and push him into the wall. If his HP was buffed to, say, 5-10 million, and you didn’t have that wall option the fight would be “epic” in nature. it’s unfortunate that anet balanced the end game pve around the capabilities of the worst players rather than the best or even average.

Derenek.8931:

Asking for better AI coding isn’t asking to be similar to other games, it’s asking to raise the standard in order to match those games.
…
You don’t want something new and challenging?

Do you think you are special and the first to think about that? You are in the dungeon subforum. Most people here solo dungeon for the last year, some even 2 years. We ask for more challenging content for a long long time, with more developed idea than : oh Anet just have to give better AI coding.

I agree, Derenek, it’d be great if folks could have more constructive attitudes towards other players.

In the meantime, I’m just gonna leave these two sentences here, unedited:

Derenek.8931:

They may actually have a life. Be welcoming to all players and support each other

O.o

Derenek.8931:

Don’t you guys get tired of “pull the lever, out comes cheese… pull the lever, out comes cheese… Repeat… Etc…” You don’t want something new and challenging?

Yep. That’s why there are very few dungeon folks left, and most of us here actually play other games and just keep up with the forums for….reasons (I’ve been having a blast in ESO since it went B2P). But ArenaNet is never going to fix the AI in these dungeons. Dungeons are dead — they aren’t going to touch them again. All we can hope for is that the new “Challenging Group Content” in HoT is actually instanced and for small groups. More than likely, though, we’ll see more Vinewraths.

We’d love to see improved dungeons, but give up hope now. Take from those of us who have been hoping for 2+ years, only to be disappointed and ignored time and time again. It’s just not worth getting your hopes up for.

dlonie.6547:

We’d love to see improved dungeons, but give up hope now. Take from those of us who have been hoping for 2+ years, only to be disappointed and ignored time and time again. It’s just not worth getting your hopes up for.

I never gave up, hence why i’m still lurking the forums.
Since you’re also lurking here, you have still hopes as well for fresh and spicy additions and/or changes to dungeons.

Dungeons are dead, once guys like you and the rest of the bunch, claiming the dungeon-discussion thread their 2nd home, take the leave entirely.

But yeah, dungeons and PvE in general feels so broken, from battle-mechanic, build-diversity and fair and rewarding challenge, to accessibility, that HoT really is the last straw i’m holding onto right now.
To everyone saying how enganging and interesting enemy encounters overall are:
Like 90% of the mobs, that everyone ignores, because they drop nothing and are nothing but are pain in the, uhm, “kittycat”, to fight? Leave Arah for a couple of minutes to get some fresh air.
Fights like Lupi, Mai Trin or Thaumanova aren’t examples, i’d throw around to showcase how awesome PvE combat is, i’d throw it around to showcase how it could be. In the end, if you understood their mechanics, it’s all about “kill it before it kills you as fast as possible to avoid risks” anyways.

People who still have hope for dungeons do make me smile….

Never change. It’s beautiful, in a sad kind of way :’-)

Talyn.3295:

So you lose the previous argument about builds and you latch on this as a counter move?

No. If you read back, someone else (NikeEU) derailed the conversation in this direction, and I simply defended my position from a totally different discussion. Because I still stand by it. It was not my choice to talk about improving boss encounters and dungeons (I’m already in such a discussion in a different thread). I initially talked about min/maxing, someone else dragged it off topic.

Talyn.3295:

Do you remember the AC spider change?

I recall how many post I saw about pugs getting wrecked after. There were just as many post if not more from people who said this fight became to hard. The sad part? It was just as easy as it was before.

Yes, the change did not change a whole lot about that dungeon, or the fight itself. In fact, you can still stack at that encounter just fine.

Talyn.3295:

We are not against the idea of Innovations or improvements. We are however against un-needed changes that won’t accomplish anything but drive new players away or will do more harm then good.

You might not be, but many other players ARE. The point here was that the topic was dragged off topic, and my opinion regarding the visibility of boss-attacks was brought up (from a totally different discussion years ago), as if that some how has any relevance to a discussion on mix/maxing. It was a perfect example of players hissing at the mere mention that something in the game was not well designed, and could be improved. And I don’t get that. Why would anyone defend the current effect spam in the game? We can all see it. Don’t call a pile of dolyak droppings, a birthday cake, when we can all see it for what it is.

Talyn.3295:

P.S. I recall two or even one year ago when the Fire Elemental fight actually lasted long enough to be fun.

I never minded those changes. That fire elemental was way too challenging for a starter zone to begin with.

NikeEU.7690:

1. The game isn’t 111111 at the highest level. When speed run guilds doing fast runs fight a boss there are tons of things happening at the same time. You’ve never experienced it,

Yes I have. Don’t make assumptions on what I have or have not experienced.

But that only speeds up the run. You can bypass most content by just spamming 1,1,1,1,1. Maybe not Arah or Fractals, but plenty of content in the game lacks any challenge, and requires no special builds what so ever (especially the old dungeon content). I wish it did. I’d love to be required to change my skills specifically for a dungeon, rather than only maximizing damage. But the game just does not make any such demands on the players. And it bores me to tears.

NikeEU.7690:

2. The combat system is ridiculously deep,

No its not.

NikeEU.7690:

and many of the bosses have cool and interesting mechanics.

You may have not played enough games then. The bosses in GW2 mostly lack mechanics. Heck, most bosses in GW2 don’t even have stages. The few bosses that actually have stages are Lupi, Tequatl, the Wurm trio and the Molten Duo. But almost all bosses in the game keep repeating the same behavior throughout the entire battle. Which is so boring.

If any boss fight lasts over 5 minutes, and no new behavior has been introduced during that time, that is a bad boss fight.

NikeEU.7690:

The problem is that many of the best bosses don’t have nearly enough HP. Lupicus has about 1.44 million HP and groups have the option to EZ mode it and push him into the wall. If his HP was buffed to, say, 5-10 million, and you didn’t have that wall option the fight would be “epic” in nature. it’s unfortunate that anet balanced the end game pve around the capabilities of the worst players rather than the best or even average.

I think Lupi is mostly fine. It’s most of the other bosses in the game that deserve the same amount of design time. The wall thing is a bug. But mechanically he’s probably the most interesting boss in the whole game. Why aren’t the other bosses up to this standard?

dlonie.6547:

People who still have hope for dungeons do make me smile….

Never change. It’s beautiful, in a sad kind of way :’-)

Hope? Nah. Those in charge only look at statistics. If the dungeon population is on the decline, they’ll assume this means that they should focus on other content instead (instead of assuming that perhaps people want better dungeons).

If they took only one gaze at what the community thinks about the game, they’d realize that raw statistics are a poor representation of what the player base would like to see. This also goes for build diversity.

I don’t mind min/maxing. But there’s not a whole lot to work with, when the game mostly revolves around DPS. That’s the sort of min/maxing I hate. I would love to have the sort of min/maxing, where you experiment with different builds, have skills and traits that interact with each other in creative ways, and come up with niche builds. I don’t get that from my class right now. It’s either condition, MM, life stealing, fear build, or power. There’s nothing here that lets me do creative stuff with my character.

In GW1 I had a necromancer that could sometimes beat impossible odds, thanks to a clever build that I created. In Fort Aspenwood I would fight off three players all by myself, just because I had created a build that balanced offense and defense in such a clever way, that they had a lot of trouble taking me down. And I would solo Frostmaw in hardmode, all thanks to my skill combination. I loved being able to do that, by experimenting with builds. So I love min/maxing! But not if its just maximizing damage.

I don’t really believe that dungeon community is small. My guess is they have no idea how to monetise dungeons so they don’t want to put funds into them until they think of sth

You’re still focusing on the old, outdated content, which anet has already explained they don’t prioritize revamping. The are going to work on new content instead, so we should look at what they’ve introduced since launch, to see if they get whats wrong with launch dungeons and have made new content better.

Thamanova fractal – 4 different events which are accessible simultaneously, allowing for varied approaches. Not “sloppy corridors”.
TA aether – Puzzle elements. Though the main part of the dungeon is corridor like, the optional part afterwards is very open ended.
Molten Duo and Mai Trin – bosses with phases and mechanics you cannot simply 1111 through. Molten duo suffers from a lack of HP, and mai’s cannon phases can become tedious, but you couldn’t really call them an auto attack fest.

So, you can keep harping on about the design flaws of low level launch dungeons, but it’s beating a dead horse. If you hate it so much, get out of AC and do stuff like fractals and aetherpath, and tell anet we need more new instanced hardcore content in the expac.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

dlonie.6547:

People who still have hope for dungeons do make me smile….

Never change. It’s beautiful, in a sad kind of way :’-)

Hope? Nah. Those in charge only look at statistics. If the dungeon population is on the decline, they’ll assume this means that they should focus on other content instead (instead of assuming that perhaps people want better dungeons).

If they took only one gaze at what the community thinks about the game, they’d realize that raw statistics are a poor representation of what the player base would like to see. This also goes for build diversity.

The game is actually healthier than ever! More and more people are logging in every day since the introduction of login rewards! Metrics FTW!

Yeah….I hear ya.

I don’t mind min/maxing. But there’s not a whole lot to work with, when the game mostly revolves around DPS. That’s the sort of min/maxing I hate. I would love to have the sort of min/maxing, where you experiment with different builds, have skills and traits that interact with each other in creative ways, and come up with niche builds. I don’t get that from my class right now. It’s either condition, MM, life stealing, fear build, or power. There’s nothing here that lets me do creative stuff with my character.

In GW1 I had a necromancer that could sometimes beat impossible odds, thanks to a clever build that I created. In Fort Aspenwood I would fight off three players all by myself, just because I had created a build that balanced offense and defense in such a clever way, that they had a lot of trouble taking me down. And I would solo Frostmaw in hardmode, all thanks to my skill combination. I loved being able to do that, by experimenting with builds. So I love min/maxing! But not if its just maximizing damage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLouxbk6QPY

I think it’s time to just realize that GW2 isn’t the game for you. You had fun in GW1 and hoped GW2 would carry over some of the features you enjoyed.

But it didn’t. And it won’t. There are greener pastures out there if you’re seeking greater build diversity/smarter AI/more complex encounters than this game offers. Might be time to move on.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Snip

Builds are a part of Min/maxing, so therefor are relevant to any Min/Maxing discussion. Taking an offense skill or a defensive is by its very nature a min/max situation, “Is my group good enough that I won’t need this extra projectile protection? Can slot something that will let me kill this faster?” I have to ask that before every encounter, when I am rolling on my guard.

AC was just one example of a change, and its life cycle. Originally the spider queen was a pug killer after the change, or at the very least an unprepared pug killer. It didn’t effect all of us, but there were many post on it, even a few troll post.

I wouldn’t mind the particle effects being Toned down. However that is a topic for another thread. If we can see the tells well enough to Min/Max right now, we would be able to see it then. The only thing this would effect is maybe a more casual player would be able to see an attack and not get smashed by it. That would be a good thing.

Idisagree with regards to the Fire Elemental. I feel Anet does to much hand holding for the players in open world content, which has a direction relationship with Dungeons. I can wander around open world for hours and in only the most rare instances be forced to use a defensive skill or to actually dodge. Mostly the mobs just die when I look at them.

This caries over to dungeons in a lot of ways. If the player base never has to learn the Combat system in the open world, then they never will learn it in the dungeons. They will simply do the same things they always have, not knowing why they do them.

Hence corner stacking almost a year after the FGS nerf.

In relation to what Nike Said here, The GW combat system is very deep. The counter stroke of it is that we never get to see that deepness because it gets washed down for the masses. Same point with Lupi here.

We are not, and never will be the target audience. The idea that any build/skill level can/will complete all the content that Anet releases tells us in advance that it will never have the dept or the complexity that we would like. Lupi shows us that it is possible. But it is an exception, not the rule.

Would I like to see a Lupi style boss on every dungeon path? Frell yeah, would the majority of the Guild Wars community? Heck no. The QQ on the forums would reach heights that might flood the entire planet.

These dungeons are old. Very old. Nothing is likely to change in them. I think it says something to the nature of their design that we even still bother with them at all. Either that or human greed cause its the fastest way to get the shines people want.

Anet is working on other thing with HoT, the Foundation is there however for later combat encounters to be more epic and have more factors. Much Greater variety can be created here then we could have ever done in GW1. Which was put to rest in work on GW2 because it lacked the more Active based combat system we have now was the direction Anet wanted to go. It isn’t perfect yet, but it is alot more fun.

We play with the card we have been dealt. GW 1 and GW 2 are two different games.

I had fun in GW 1, even if there were still alot of things I hated about it,

like, half the skills in GW1 were useless. There was nothing interesting about the combat system. It was your normal “If if the monk dies or gets distressed we are in trouble snore fest” or Burn though the insane amount of HP

Standard tactics for every fight, “Find NPC healer, Nuke NPC healer = Loots.” Frostmaw was just a bag of HP if I remember correctly.

But I loved its lore and its story. I loved the Question options, hard mode and content like The Underworld and FoW. These were what kept me playing GW1 for nearly 10 years.

With Luck we might see content like that at some point. Not the combat, but the lore and the story and the interesting places to visit. I would love to re-visit the Domain of Torment again. I found it alot more fun then alot of the later game stuff we have right now.

personally, I think if they gave bosses giant neon lights announcing when they were about to attack that would be good design.

Talyn.3295:

Frostmaw was just a bag of HP if I remember correctly.

It was more than that. You also had damage spikes and Wurm Bile to deal with.

Talyn.3295:

With Luck we might see content like that at some point. Not the combat, but the lore and the story and the interesting places to visit. I would love to re-visit the Domain of Torment again. I found it alot more fun then alot of the later game stuff we have right now.

Its bizarre how often UW, FOW and DOA gets brought up, yet Anet does not seem to take notice. I don’t event think they’d have to change much about UW to implement it into GW2. You could almost have the exact same quests, and the same final boss battle, and it would be great.

dlonie.6547:

I think it’s time to just realize that GW2 isn’t the game for you. You had fun in GW1 and hoped GW2 would carry over some of the features you enjoyed.

But it didn’t. And it won’t. There are greener pastures out there if you’re seeking greater build diversity/smarter AI/more complex encounters than this game offers. Might be time to move on.

Hence why I’ve recently been playing more DDO than GW2. Better dungeons, and more build diversity for sure. Just looking at the enhancement trees for each class is staggering.

Just look at this stuff! THIS is what GW2 needs. This is what I call build options:
(Keep in mind, you can choose from all 4 of these trees at the same time, and you can also multi-class!)

Anet made a deliberate effort to simplify build options in guild wars 2, and put the focus on the arcade-y, action style combat. It was one of the things they were quite clear they were doing a 180 on from previous game. If you’re complaining that gw2 is not like gw1 in its build complexity, I’m not sure why you’re still with the game 2 -1/2 years down the road.

You could argue that the dungeons they launched with didn’t really take advantage of the strengths of the combat system they developed, and I wouldn’t disagree. But what you are looking for is antithetical to what gw2 is trying to achieve, so it’s probably best you stick with DDO. Maybe try out Path of Exile if build complexity is a priority for you . :P

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Talyn.3295:

Frostmaw was just a bag of HP if I remember correctly.

It was more than that. You also had damage spikes and Wurm Bile to deal with.

Any boss worth his salt has big damage spikes. Guess I kinda felt that part went without saying.

Edit: We are more likely to get this https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Hyenas-1/first#post5035348

then We are to see UW, FoW or DoA, we are not the target audience.