Guild Wars 2

Okay, so the raiding community is clearly enjoying raiding, thats fine, I understand that challenging content can be a fun buzz for those that actually want it.

But when that content “does” include story which will probably be brought into season 3 and future updates, I have to disagree that having it exclusivly for the best players, is not healthy for the game.

Not everyone wants to “watch” someone else on youtube play the game “they” paid for in order to enjoy that storyline, so let me give you a compramise:

Two Options:

Option 1: Story Mode

Option 1 focuses on letting players who simply want to experience the actual story of the raid have it given to them on a silver platter. This drastically reduces the difficulty and challenge of the bosses, and gives you no real loot based value so dont expect many if “any” raid pieces of loot, but instead focuses on letting you “experience” the content while your doing it, rather than waiting for a group of welcoming newbies or trainer raids to let you onboard.

This gives those after the story side of content what they want, they dont care about the raid itself, they just want the lore, the story, and that experience that comes with it. Maybe at the end they can get a single loot box containing a collectable piece of raid gear e.g. White Mantle Box which contains a single white mantle weapon the first time you complete the raid on your account in story mode. After that, they have to earn the rest of the gear and git good like the rest of you.

This is a nice little compramise as it lets people who really “want” to experience the raid have an incentive to try, to do it again to get better at it, plus it almost serves as a tutorial, allowing newbies a chance to try out the raid for the first time.

I personally feel this option “would” be the best in some ways, but then lets look at option 2.

Option 2, Nerfing Irrelevent Content:

Okay, so this is the one that im sure raiders will yell at me for even suggesting but I have a confident feeling it will make alot of Majority players happy.

This idea goes down the path that, lets say the next raid is out, well, I doubt that many people will go to a now redundant raid with masteries no longer relevent to new content.

So with that in mind, nerf the raid, nerf it to the ground so that nearly everyone can access that content once it is no longer relevent, make it laughably easy compared to the challenge it once posed.

As a bonus to people that did the entire raid while it was relevent: Grant them a special title they can display and possibly a unique character portrait icon allowing them to brandish the “I did it when it was relevent” card while everyone else actually gets to “do” it when it isnt, and enjoy it at a relaxed rate.

I do not think nerfing content that is no longer relevent to the ground is honestly a sin, its not going to hurt raiders in the slightest who by that point will be busy doing some zhaitan themed raid, or temple of abbadon or what ever new content comes out for them.

Either way, lets meet in the middle, I think you guys can agree that “getting good” or “remaining exclusive” is a toxic attitude and new people “should” be allowed to experience content that is no longer relevent.

Option 3: a Legendary Dungeon

Adding a dungeon with Story mode (see option 1) and 3 paths that use Raid wings, and TOKENS to do a lengendary armor (but not the same skin as Raid)

Adding a PvP track for this dungeon so PvP players can do a legendary armor too.

There is no half way to meet at. Raids are a thing, people who play casually can and probably do, do them. I don’t, I also don’t sPvP so no leg back (not missing it). Get over it please.

Yargesh.4965:

There is no half way to meet at.

So, if no compromise is possible, you are saying that people should argue to stop further Raid development and nerf current raids, instead of trying to find a solution that would leave Raiders with their content?

I am a non-raider yet I feel like “yelling at you”: getting good and remaining exclusive is not a toxic attitude as long as what raiders can get is not superior to what casuals non-raider can obtain by playing at their pace while not feeling forced into raiding. As for the lore, it has been pointed out a gazillion time that it consists of notes that people read on the ground easily accessible with a cleared instance…….And honestly I really don’t need to go into raiding instances to understand that white mantle might get involved and that ley-line energy is getting out of control with the added events that take place in core tyria. I personally don’t want a core-tyria experience of what raiders have I would rather have LS3. At some point you need to realize that raiding was advertised as hot content as it was also advertised that hot would bring challenging content. Nerfing them while still providing easy core-tyria content is a waste of resources and time. Let the people that like raids enjoy the current difficulty of all the raid wings as it stands now for a great replay-ability of what they enjoy….Edit: the old raids will always be relevant to them because they are well designed

flog.3485:

I am a non-raider yet I feel like “yelling at you”: getting good and remaining exclusive is not a toxic attitude as long as what raiders can get is not superior to what casuals non-raider can obtain by playing at their pace while not feeling forced into raiding. As for the lore, it has been pointed out a gazillion time that it consists of notes that people read on the ground easily accessible with a cleared instance…….And honestly I really don’t need to go into raiding instances to understand that white mantle might get involved and that ley-line energy is getting out of control with the added events that take place in core tyria. I personally don’t want a core-tyria experience of what raiders have I would rather have LS3. At some point you need to realize that raiding was advertised as hot content as it was also advertised that hot would bring challenging content. Nerfing them while still providing easy core-tyria content is a waste of resources and time. Let the people that like raids enjoy the current difficulty of all the raid wings as it stands now for a great replay-ability of what they enjoy….Edit: the old raids will always be relevant to them because they are well designed

Ok since none raiders can get the same stat switching armor somewere else at their own pace please point it out to me.

Superior can be higher stats true but it can also be a totaly new mechanic to it like for example legendary stat switching.

Astralporing.1957:

Yargesh.4965:

There is no half way to meet at.

So, if no compromise is possible, you are saying that people should argue to stop further Raid development and nerf current raids, instead of trying to find a solution that would leave Raiders with their content?

How the heck do you read that into what I wrote?

I’m not a raider, but I’m still gonna yell at you…kinda.

Your first suggestion would cover the needs of the lore hounds by giving them story mode, and it would allow players just curious about raids to poke their noses in without getting nuked from orbit by the first mob they come across. Like I said, I don’t raid, and I’ve relied on nice people to open done raid wings for me to poke around in at my leisure, so your first suggestion is something I’d like to see implemented.

The second suggestion is something I can’t quite wrap my head around. Since when is nerfing anything into the ground ever a good idea? Also, where do you draw that line that says content is no longer relevant – and to whom? Let’s say a raid instance comes out this month…when should it be nerfed? In a year? Half a year? What about the new players coming into the game? Or the people who’ve played for a while, and who might not, for whatever reason, have had the time or inclination to go into that raid when it was relevant? I don’t raid now, but who knows, I might change my mind, and if I do, I’d want the full experience even if that includes having my posterior handed to me by mob/boss mechanics.

In my opinion, ‘old’ content should always be available to new players, and also to veterans who didn’t play it when it was ‘relevant’. This is one of my main gripes with GW2: I started playing last year and I am seriously peeved that I only get a nerfed LS1 in the form of a few cut scenes and a bunch of items purchasable through Laurels – and let’s not forget the items/titles (?) I can’t get at all, unless I purchase them for a lot of gold from the TP.

So, TL;DR: Option one – yes, please. With cherries on top. Option two…no thanks.

/two cents

I think the first option is actually a really good idea. It’s not just the lore either that would be attractive. Maybe someone wants to experience bits and pieces of the encounter without having to put in the time and effort that the raid would require? Maybe they want to fight the bosses, get to see first hand what the raid looks like (watching over my gf’s shoulder as she plays the raid looks really pretty and visually interesting), get to experience the fights even if it’s just a shadow of the original content.

Raiders can have the loot and the bragging rights to say they did the hard stuff and those that don’t want to or, for whatever reason, can’t raid can still get some of the experience and feel like they’re getting what they paid for with the expansion. And who knows maybe someone who does the story version of the raid may feel more confident to try the full raid afterwards.

If it would be possible for ANet to implement without wasting too many resources to do so then I really don’t see any downside to it.

Linken.6345:

flog.3485:

I am a non-raider yet I feel like “yelling at you”: getting good and remaining exclusive is not a toxic attitude as long as what raiders can get is not superior to what casuals non-raider can obtain by playing at their pace while not feeling forced into raiding. As for the lore, it has been pointed out a gazillion time that it consists of notes that people read on the ground easily accessible with a cleared instance…….And honestly I really don’t need to go into raiding instances to understand that white mantle might get involved and that ley-line energy is getting out of control with the added events that take place in core tyria. I personally don’t want a core-tyria experience of what raiders have I would rather have LS3. At some point you need to realize that raiding was advertised as hot content as it was also advertised that hot would bring challenging content. Nerfing them while still providing easy core-tyria content is a waste of resources and time. Let the people that like raids enjoy the current difficulty of all the raid wings as it stands now for a great replay-ability of what they enjoy….Edit: the old raids will always be relevant to them because they are well designed

Ok since none raiders can get the same stat switching armor somewere else at their own pace please point it out to me.

Superior can be higher stats true but it can also be a totaly new mechanic to it like for example legendary stat switching.

It is true that you can’t but afaik, raiders can’t even start crafting their amor also. And no stat-switching is not superior because in GW 2, whether I am wearing condie gear or zerker gear I can participate in any given content content that take place in tyria and in the maguma jungle. The game also not requires you to switch stats on a frequent basis. Let me also add they you can certainly switch stats but you can’t switch runes. And if legendary was so legendary then everyone would already have a legendary weapon, which is certainly not true. There is no gear treadmill in the game simply because unlike other mmos you don’t have to grind to be relevant, just like you don’t need to grind the latest viper stats to feel relevant, whether you do dungeons, fractals or open world. Heck on my condi gear I don’t even own sinister stats. In fact the only real place where stat-switching might be relevant is raids, as for pve. Oh the irony

I’m another non-raider. I keep saying I may try it at some point but I’m highly unlikely to be any good at it if I do.

I think the only acceptable suggestion would be your Option 1.

Except I’d actually take it further: Make it work like the story instances so it can be completed by 1 person alone, or by a group of up to 10 (or whatever a normal raid group is).

And then remove all raid specific rewards, achievements, mastery tracks and points, legendary components, anything you can currently only get within the raid. If there are any drops it should be normal champion bags and other open-world drops, stuff you can get anywhere.

If you genuinely just want to play through the storyline then you’ve got exactly what you want. If you want the raid rewards then you do the raid.

I’d actually love that because I do want to see the story, and I want to see it in a format where I’d feel free to watch cut scenes instead of skipping them as quickly as possible to make sure the run is “efficient”, to talk to NPCs and explore any dialogue choices etc. I do want some of the raid rewards too (specifically the mini pets) but I accept that I need to actually complete the content to get them.

flog.3485:

Linken.6345:

flog.3485:

I am a non-raider yet I feel like “yelling at you”: getting good and remaining exclusive is not a toxic attitude as long as what raiders can get is not superior to what casuals non-raider can obtain by playing at their pace while not feeling forced into raiding. As for the lore, it has been pointed out a gazillion time that it consists of notes that people read on the ground easily accessible with a cleared instance…….And honestly I really don’t need to go into raiding instances to understand that white mantle might get involved and that ley-line energy is getting out of control with the added events that take place in core tyria. I personally don’t want a core-tyria experience of what raiders have I would rather have LS3. At some point you need to realize that raiding was advertised as hot content as it was also advertised that hot would bring challenging content. Nerfing them while still providing easy core-tyria content is a waste of resources and time. Let the people that like raids enjoy the current difficulty of all the raid wings as it stands now for a great replay-ability of what they enjoy….Edit: the old raids will always be relevant to them because they are well designed

Ok since none raiders can get the same stat switching armor somewere else at their own pace please point it out to me.

Superior can be higher stats true but it can also be a totaly new mechanic to it like for example legendary stat switching.

It is true that you can’t but afaik, raiders can’t even start crafting their amor also. And no stat-switching is not superior because in GW 2, whether I am wearing condie gear or zerker gear I can participate in any given content content that take place in tyria and in the maguma jungle. The game also not requires you to switch stats on a frequent basis. Let me also add they you can certainly switch stats but you can’t switch runes. And if legendary was so legendary then everyone would already have a legendary weapon, which is certainly not true. There is no gear treadmill in the game simply because unlike other mmos you don’t have to grind to be relevant, just like you don’t need to grind the latest viper stats to feel relevant, whether you do dungeons, fractals or open world. Heck on my condi gear I don’t even own sinister stats. In fact the only real place where stat-switching might be relevant is raids, as for pve. Oh the irony

Oh how would that work for the raiders since they cant switch runes?

I think its more for the open world pvers that might want to Wvw abit and switch stats for that.
Or maybe they want to run fractals but need to be abit tankier for it, not the mini/maxing raiders

Astralporing.1957:

Yargesh.4965:

There is no half way to meet at.

So, if no compromise is possible, you are saying that people should argue to stop further Raid development and nerf current raids, instead of trying to find a solution that would leave Raiders with their content?

In case you missed it, that is exactly what some non-raiders on this forum want. They resent the fact that this content exists and that it wasn’t developed to their tastes. They want it gone.

Don’t try to make it seem like it’s the other side being unreasonable here. ANet introduced raids. Some players like them. Those players don’t need to “compromise” with anyone.

You go ahead and tell ANet what you want. So will the rest of us.

AliamRationem.5172:

Astralporing.1957:

Yargesh.4965:

There is no half way to meet at.

So, if no compromise is possible, you are saying that people should argue to stop further Raid development and nerf current raids, instead of trying to find a solution that would leave Raiders with their content?

In case you missed it, that is exactly what some non-raiders on this forum want. They resent the fact that this content exists and that it wasn’t developed to their tastes. They want it gone.

Don’t try to make it seem like it’s the other side being unreasonable here. ANet introduced raids. Some players like them. Those players don’t need to “compromise” with anyone.

You go ahead and tell ANet what you want. So will the rest of us.

Can you link some threads were that is said?

I seen alot of people want a easier version with same rewards but taking longer time to aquire.
Say you cant get em as drops for example, but need to buy them for the raid currency that you get 25% of what normal raids give each week.

Linken.6345:

AliamRationem.5172:

Astralporing.1957:

Yargesh.4965:

There is no half way to meet at.

So, if no compromise is possible, you are saying that people should argue to stop further Raid development and nerf current raids, instead of trying to find a solution that would leave Raiders with their content?

In case you missed it, that is exactly what some non-raiders on this forum want. They resent the fact that this content exists and that it wasn’t developed to their tastes. They want it gone.

Don’t try to make it seem like it’s the other side being unreasonable here. ANet introduced raids. Some players like them. Those players don’t need to “compromise” with anyone.

You go ahead and tell ANet what you want. So will the rest of us.

Can you link some threads were that is said?

I seen alot of people want a easier version with same rewards but taking longer time to aquire.
Say you cant get em as drops for example, but need to buy them for the raid currency that you get 25% of what normal raids give each week.

I’m not making an argument for or against these suggestions. I simply take issue with the implication (stated in plain words in the post I replied to) that players who enjoy raiding need to compromise with those who don’t. As if we’re guests in YOUR game? And you can’t tell me you haven’t seen that attitude expressed many times on this forum!

Perhaps what you ask for here is perfectly reasonable, but threatening raiders with “If you don’t support our position we’ll do whatever we can to see the content you enjoy removed from the game” is not. That’s all I was saying.

Personally, I have no problem with a story mode. But I was under the impression that the story will become available as part of future LS releases? If that’s true, I’m not sure there’s much to be gained from developing two versions of the same content just so that players who don’t want to raid can see the story…twice, apparently. But maybe that isn’t the case?

Dragon’s Stand is a public raid anyone can join. Why can’t the actual raid be the same way? If you want to do it your own way just enter the zone with your group.

Artificial/contrived barriers to content shouldn’t exist when everyone has to pay for it. I can join PvP/WvW and play with others without a premade group, why not the raids/dungeons?

I’m not really a casual gamer but I don’t really care for team content because of personality conflicts. I think the best compromise would be to allow raiders to get first crack at the content to get high rewards as part of an advance Pact raid force to open up the maps. Give them a few months access then open it up as part of PvE so single players can get access to the story content with lower rewards and generally explore at their own pace. From the game point of view it would make sense open new maps that way. They could even work it into beta content that way.

Of course another way they could do it is to allow single players to enter raids with either Destiny Edge 2.0 or a party of their level 80 characters which would be somewhat like henchmen in GW1. I think that would be interesting because the stats built up over the life of the character could shape the AI running it.

Wait, did I miss an announcement here? Are they adding Story to raids?

TheMagicFace.9854:

Wait, did I miss an announcement here? Are they adding Story to raids?

It’d my understanding that they have a story element to them that connects with the greater story in GW2. This is why some of us are a little upset with it. Currently the only way to access that content is via a party of players. Single players are excluded.

It’s like buying a novel yet some chapters of it are only accessible via private limited party readings. The single reader at home can’t read those chapters in the story.

Tekoneiric.6817:

TheMagicFace.9854:

Wait, did I miss an announcement here? Are they adding Story to raids?

It’d my understanding that they have a story element to them that connects with the greater story in GW2. This is why some of us are a little upset with it. Currently the only way to access that content is via a party of players. Single players are excluded.

You can enter the instances solo, there are story summaries to read.
YouTube is also your friend if you really want to experience the story but not actually participate.

“Easy” and “Hard” Mode is all that is necessary. Easy would be difficulty akin to dungeons adjusted slightly for 10 people. Hard would be current difficulty. To compensate for difficulty lower the odds of acquisition of materials for the “Easy” players.

It’s a copy and nerf so there’s no change in mechanics for battles or anything, just lower enemy stats. “Quick” Implementation if it has to happen.

Yargesh.4965:

Tekoneiric.6817:

TheMagicFace.9854:

Wait, did I miss an announcement here? Are they adding Story to raids?

It’d my understanding that they have a story element to them that connects with the greater story in GW2. This is why some of us are a little upset with it. Currently the only way to access that content is via a party of players. Single players are excluded.

You can enter the instances solo, there are story summaries to read.
YouTube is also your friend if you really want to experience the story but not actually participate.

I tried to enter raids and it says it has to be as part of a party. Single players aren’t allowed.

I kind of accepted along the ride that was raids that I would have to sit through boring hours of training, wiping and group finding stuff to get legendary armor. That of course does not mean that I would not be overjoyed if I somehow could still avoid doing them.^^

Tekoneiric.6817:

Yargesh.4965:

Tekoneiric.6817:

TheMagicFace.9854:

Wait, did I miss an announcement here? Are they adding Story to raids?

It’d my understanding that they have a story element to them that connects with the greater story in GW2. This is why some of us are a little upset with it. Currently the only way to access that content is via a party of players. Single players are excluded.

You can enter the instances solo, there are story summaries to read.
YouTube is also your friend if you really want to experience the story but not actually participate.

I tried to enter raids and it says it has to be as part of a party. Single players aren’t allowed.

Commander tag then set it to raids, you will enter. If no commander tag ask someone to let you in there are tons in the lobby. At raid release there was an option to talk to the NPC to allow you to set up a raid group, not sure if still in game but that also got you into the zones.
EDIT: the person who let you in can leave at any time and the instance will not close until the last person has left. No tag required after opening.

Tekoneiric.6817:

Yargesh.4965:

Tekoneiric.6817:

TheMagicFace.9854:

Wait, did I miss an announcement here? Are they adding Story to raids?

It’d my understanding that they have a story element to them that connects with the greater story in GW2. This is why some of us are a little upset with it. Currently the only way to access that content is via a party of players. Single players are excluded.

You can enter the instances solo, there are story summaries to read.
YouTube is also your friend if you really want to experience the story but not actually participate.

I tried to enter raids and it says it has to be as part of a party. Single players aren’t allowed.

Open a raidsquad and walk in. You can enter even if you are the only one in this squad.

EDIT: @Yargesh: The tag isn’t needed. If an account has no tag it can open a limited raidsquad. But there will be no other functionality of this than entering raid, having squadchat, the possibility to group up to 10 and create subgroups.

Just add a story mode, it allows people to experience the story and use the story mode to train on the mechanics instead of ruining the regular raids because they lack practise.

Also story mode won’t give the raid currency and you can’t get the achievements for the raid apart from say completing it on story mode.

It is a no brainer and would stop some of the arguments plus bolster the roster of people capable of doing raids.

My take on this would be something like this:

- make 1-2 story mode dungeons with cinematics that cover the story or better yet, make them part of the living story

- introduce some form replayability of GW1 events. After watching woodenpotatoes video on how wing 2 of the raid connects to the original white mantle storyline from GW1 I just feel bad for all the players who missed out on those amazing stories. Yes I know, it’s been done before (Caverns of time in WoW, etc.) but how awesome would it be to get to reexperience some of the iconic GW1 moments in GW2. It would also allow for a lot of lore to get retold for players who missed GW1 (and yes, I am going to blantly link to his video cause it’s fricking awesome: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mu7hHuidcpM)

- rewards I would love to have arenanet add some alternative method to aquiring legendary armor. I’m just not sure how to keep it exclusive enough without the raid difficulty.

Cyninja.2954:

- rewards I would love to have arenanet add some alternative method to aquiring legendary armor. I’m just not sure how to keep it exclusive enough without the raid difficulty.

Easy. Raids should have their own skin for the legendary armor earned there. Legendary armor earned through other means should have their own unique skins. That way you can tell who raids or who WvW’s or who open world PvE’s and potentially even who does a bit of everything.

Well, im glad option 1 seems to have gained popularity at least, it seems to be something ive noticed alot of forum posts suggest in the past so my reasoning was, giving 2 types of compramises allows non raiders to enjoy that content aswell.

Exclusivity, is not something of a motto that GW2 was ever made for, GW2 has always been about “everyone” being able to do something.

I do not think that actual raiding needs to be nerfed at its current form just so that it becomes a joke, I appriciate, you raiders want a challenge, and you want your loot.

I dont think thats a bad thing to want.

What I dont think is fair, is that if I want to fill in the blanks between S2 and 3, I should not have to Youtube someone elses playthrough, I should be allowed to experience that story for myself.

I do think its reasonable to say, people who want to keep up to date with the lore, have a right to want to, even if that lore feels small or minor.

Theres a reason Aether Path in TA is rarley done, and yet many wanted to do it, tying content exclusivity to gameplay that only a few can access, simply put, sucks.

CaptainVanguard.4925:

Well, im glad option 1 seems to have gained popularity at least, it seems to be something ive noticed alot of forum posts suggest in the past so my reasoning was, giving 2 types of compramises allows non raiders to enjoy that content aswell.

Exclusivity, is not something of a motto that GW2 was ever made for, GW2 has always been about “everyone” being able to do something.

I do not think that actual raiding needs to be nerfed at its current form just so that it becomes a joke, I appriciate, you raiders want a challenge, and you want your loot.

I dont think thats a bad thing to want.

What I dont think is fair, is that if I want to fill in the blanks between S2 and 3, I should not have to Youtube someone elses playthrough, I should be allowed to experience that story for myself.

I do think its reasonable to say, people who want to keep up to date with the lore, have a right to want to, even if that lore feels small or minor.

Theres a reason Aether Path in TA is rarley done, and yet many wanted to do it, tying content exclusivity to gameplay that only a few can access, simply put, sucks.

This may alleviate some of your concerns:

BobbyStein.2315:

Hey there. I’ve been seeing some comments regarding the story and lore in the Forsaken Thicket raid, and how that fits into Guild Wars 2. We appreciate your enthusiasm! Just wanted to clarify a few things:

• It will not be necessary to play Forsaken Thicket—or any future raid—in order to complete Living World or expansion stories. Raids do not gate main story progress.
• Raid stories can—and should—be thematically tied to Tyrian lore and enhance the game.
• If any lore information from the raids is relevant to storylines in other content, we’ll make sure that information is also available in that other content.
• Raids present story in a different manner than elsewhere in the game. They are not a replacement for Living World, expansion, or Personal Story.
• Output from the raids team isn’t coming at the expense of other projects in development. Raids are made independently of Living World. We do communicate regularly with that team (and we share some resources and assets in both directions) but neither team prevents the other from doing its job.
• The Forsaken Thicket story will conclude with the release of Stronghold of the Faithful on June 14.
• Raids are not part of our Living World episodes; they are separate game elements.
• More information regarding Living World Season 3 will be announced in the future. As always, content will be released when it is ready to ensure the optimal quality for our fans. Hang tight.

I hope this helps people understand things a bit better. Thanks!

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Raid-Narrative-and-Lore/first#post6195598

Good luck.

Astralporing.1957:

Yargesh.4965:

There is no half way to meet at.

So, if no compromise is possible, you are saying that people should argue to stop further Raid development and nerf current raids, instead of trying to find a solution that would leave Raiders with their content?

What he is saying is that the dichotomy of casuals vs raiders doesnt really exist in terms of being able to experience the story because the raid can be beaten by casuals.

Compromise does not, and cannot, exist if there is only one party, which already has access to what it claims to want.

“We all want to experience the story…and we can. Lets compromise,” is a nonsensical argument. If one wants X, and has X, then there is nothing to compromise about regarding getting X.

Also, compromise generally means giving up something to get something somwhere in a middle ground between two positions. Even if compromise were possible in a situation where both sides already have what they want (access to the raid story) what the OP suggests is not a compromise. Asking for something from, “the other side,” without offering something in return is not compromise.

Solution is way more simpler than what was proposed above. Simply remove the time-gates and add tier loot based upon the time the raid takes down the boss.

curtegg.5216:

Solution is way more simpler than what was proposed above. Simply remove the time-gates and add tier loot based upon the time the raid takes down the boss.

Simple. Elegant. I like it.

Ashen.2907:

curtegg.5216:

Solution is way more simpler than what was proposed above. Simply remove the time-gates and add tier loot based upon the time the raid takes down the boss.

Simple. Elegant. I like it.

Doesn’t work because there’s no value to the “limit” placed unless you get absolutely nothing after a certain time and if that’s the case then you’re back at square one. So either the lazy gain rewards or the elite overprofit. This model hasn’t worked well in other games either.

DGraves.3720:

Ashen.2907:

curtegg.5216:

Solution is way more simpler than what was proposed above. Simply remove the time-gates and add tier loot based upon the time the raid takes down the boss.

Simple. Elegant. I like it.

Doesn’t work because there’s no value to the “limit” placed unless you get absolutely nothing after a certain time and if that’s the case then you’re back at square one. So either the lazy gain rewards or the elite overprofit. This model hasn’t worked well in other games either.

No reason at all that they should get nothing after a certain time mate.
If they get 1/5 or 1/10 of the full reward, why do you care if you can get the full reward?

DGraves.3720:

Ashen.2907:

curtegg.5216:

Solution is way more simpler than what was proposed above. Simply remove the time-gates and add tier loot based upon the time the raid takes down the boss.

Simple. Elegant. I like it.

Doesn’t work because there’s no value to the “limit” placed unless you get absolutely nothing after a certain time and if that’s the case then you’re back at square one. So either the lazy gain rewards or the elite overprofit. This model hasn’t worked well in other games either.

Having a baseline reward for completing the raid at all, and improving rewards for improved time could work.

There is nothing, “lazy,” about less, “elite,” players spending hours grinding their way through content that other players can complete in a fraction of the time.

It is also not, “overprofit,” for a skilled team to earn greater rewards for performing better at the raid.

flog.3485:

As for the lore, it has been pointed out a gazillion time that it consists of notes that people read on the ground easily accessible with a cleared instance.

Actually that’s not quite the case. As I’ve pointed out in the Raid Narrative and Lore thread before and which Bobby Stein himself has acknowledged in a comment, the ‘lore’ in raids as far as narrative goes consists of far more than just “notes that people read on the ground” so it would be erroneous to claim that the notes are all the lore there is to gain from the raid experience. However, as was also pointed out in the aforementioned thread, it would be difficult to replicate some of the storytelling bits for a soloable raid instance because certain elements like chatter between squad members (some of which reveals important bits of information about the story, which supports playing through the wings over and over again with different race/class combinations to witness all the dialogue variations as was the developers’ intention) would be difficult to have play out if you’re the only player character present in the instance. I hope this clears up the confusion among some players as to what can be considered ‘raid lore and narrative’.

With that said, however, I agree with Stein in that the lore you gain from raids overall is optional and supplementary to the larger GW2 narrative. Sure, you will be missing out on some interesting stuff (which is even more so the case with many explorable dungeon paths, particularly Arah and Crucible of Eternity which revealed overarching plot points that were further explored in LW season 2, HoT and very likely in LW Season 3 as well), but overall the raid is like a prelude whose plot points we’re already seeing replicated in the Current Events in PvE (magic going rampant, mutations within beings who have come in contact with magic and whether they can control it, White Mantle on the rise with a shadowy plan).

The only thing you won’t really get in the Current Events is the reveal at the end of raid wing 3, but like the linked comment from Stein in Inculpatus cedo’s post states, all the relevant information from raids will be made accessible in Season 3 if any of it plays a role and if that information is crucial for players to understand what’s going on. I’m curious to see if Season 3 will address the issue by saying that the Pact Commander was part of the raid lorewise (even if the player didn’t play through it) or if the PC learns this information some other way as Glenna’s journal actually gives conflicting accounts regarding which individuals were responsible for the raiders’ successes in raid wings 1 and 2 (especially when compared with the dialogue from other friendly NPCs in the raid who do acknowledge the PC as THE Commander who’s participating in the raid).

The way I see it, Forsaken Thicket raid as a whole is akin to how Darth Vader discovered the name of Luke Skywalker as the pilot who blew up the Death Star between Star Wars Episodes 4 and 5 or how Leia gained the bounty hunter Boushh’s outfit between Episodes 5 and 6 to infiltrate Jabba’s palace; both reveals had consequences like the reveals in the raid, but they weren’t something that we had to see on screen in the overall Star Wars saga to understand the overarching storyline just like we don’t need to see the events in the Forsaken Thicket unfold to understand what’s happening to the rest of Tyria in Season 3 (especially when said raid lore information, if relevant, will be revealed via other means to the non-raiding playerbase as stated by Stein).

This doesn’t mean I would be against a soloable mode for raids and dungeon story modes (the latter even more so because dungeon stories offer far more important lore to the core GW2 narrative than raids and dungeon explorable paths as the story modes chronicle the reconciliation of Destiny’s Edge which is very important for Personal Story narrative) so people could get to experience their narrative at their leisure. I find such an outcome unlikely, however, because tweaking either the raid or dungeon story modes to allow a solo option would require time, resources and manpower from ArenaNet who are already struggling enough with delivering content that they had to disband the Legendary team to aid the S3 team and even had to borrow one or two people from S3 team for a while to add environmental objects and whatnot to the three raid wings when the raid team was already so overworked with finetuning etc.

Ashen.2907:

DGraves.3720:

Ashen.2907:

curtegg.5216:

Solution is way more simpler than what was proposed above. Simply remove the time-gates and add tier loot based upon the time the raid takes down the boss.

Simple. Elegant. I like it.

Doesn’t work because there’s no value to the “limit” placed unless you get absolutely nothing after a certain time and if that’s the case then you’re back at square one. So either the lazy gain rewards or the elite overprofit. This model hasn’t worked well in other games either.

Having a baseline reward for completing the raid at all, and improving rewards for improved time could work.

There is nothing, “lazy,” about less, “elite,” players spending hours grinding their way through content that other players can complete in a fraction of the time.

It is also not, “overprofit,” for a skilled team to earn greater rewards for performing better at the raid.

No. Because what you’re looking at is the integrity of the system from an honest vantage point. Players aren’t honest though, take the “elite players”, throw in some gold for the run, give the lesser players the ability to get through the thing for “base” rewards, and voila you’ve got an overprofit problem on two ends.

That’s exactly how it works in almost every system where there is someone who can profit off of another person’s ineptitude and that person can profit off of their professionalism. Let’s say that we have a team of 8 players who are OP, they know their stuff, and they can easily earn mid-level rewards by themselves and then you have the two who pay to get in to get the mid-level reward and then you’ve got the raid itself.

The elites get mid-level rewards + gold (or whatever the currency they want) and the “less than useful” get more rewards than the honest casual team because of the set-up. I can guarantee that’ll be the outcome.

DGraves.3720:

Ashen.2907:

DGraves.3720:

Ashen.2907:

curtegg.5216:

Solution is way more simpler than what was proposed above. Simply remove the time-gates and add tier loot based upon the time the raid takes down the boss.

Simple. Elegant. I like it.

Doesn’t work because there’s no value to the “limit” placed unless you get absolutely nothing after a certain time and if that’s the case then you’re back at square one. So either the lazy gain rewards or the elite overprofit. This model hasn’t worked well in other games either.

Having a baseline reward for completing the raid at all, and improving rewards for improved time could work.

There is nothing, “lazy,” about less, “elite,” players spending hours grinding their way through content that other players can complete in a fraction of the time.

It is also not, “overprofit,” for a skilled team to earn greater rewards for performing better at the raid.

No. Because what you’re looking at is the integrity of the system from an honest vantage point. Players aren’t honest though, take the “elite players”, throw in some gold for the run, give the lesser players the ability to get through the thing for “base” rewards, and voila you’ve got an overprofit problem on two ends.

That’s exactly how it works in almost every system where there is someone who can profit off of another person’s ineptitude and that person can profit off of their professionalism. Let’s say that we have a team of 8 players who are OP, they know their stuff, and they can easily earn mid-level rewards by themselves and then you have the two who pay to get in to get the mid-level reward and then you’ve got the raid itself.

The elites get mid-level rewards + gold (or whatever the currency they want) and the “less than useful” get more rewards than the honest casual team because of the set-up. I can guarantee that’ll be the outcome.

I hope ANet reads this and releases a lower difficulty map, hell make an open world zerg map that functions the same way as the current open world metas with the same open world rewards; if Trion can figure it out with their even more limited resources ANet has no excuse.

Oldirtbeard.9834:

DGraves.3720:

Ashen.2907:

DGraves.3720:

Ashen.2907:

curtegg.5216:

Solution is way more simpler than what was proposed above. Simply remove the time-gates and add tier loot based upon the time the raid takes down the boss.

Simple. Elegant. I like it.

Doesn’t work because there’s no value to the “limit” placed unless you get absolutely nothing after a certain time and if that’s the case then you’re back at square one. So either the lazy gain rewards or the elite overprofit. This model hasn’t worked well in other games either.

Having a baseline reward for completing the raid at all, and improving rewards for improved time could work.

There is nothing, “lazy,” about less, “elite,” players spending hours grinding their way through content that other players can complete in a fraction of the time.

It is also not, “overprofit,” for a skilled team to earn greater rewards for performing better at the raid.

No. Because what you’re looking at is the integrity of the system from an honest vantage point. Players aren’t honest though, take the “elite players”, throw in some gold for the run, give the lesser players the ability to get through the thing for “base” rewards, and voila you’ve got an overprofit problem on two ends.

That’s exactly how it works in almost every system where there is someone who can profit off of another person’s ineptitude and that person can profit off of their professionalism. Let’s say that we have a team of 8 players who are OP, they know their stuff, and they can easily earn mid-level rewards by themselves and then you have the two who pay to get in to get the mid-level reward and then you’ve got the raid itself.

The elites get mid-level rewards + gold (or whatever the currency they want) and the “less than useful” get more rewards than the honest casual team because of the set-up. I can guarantee that’ll be the outcome.

I hope ANet reads this and releases a lower difficulty map, hell make an open world zerg map that functions the same way as the current open world metas with the same open world rewards; if Trion can figure it out with their even more limited resources ANet has no excuse.

ANET did not make raids because they could not make open world content. They made raids because that is what was asked for by players. There was a CDI about it, I would have preferred open world, always have but the limitation was not on ANETs part.

DGraves.3720:

Ashen.2907:

DGraves.3720:

Ashen.2907:

curtegg.5216:

Solution is way more simpler than what was proposed above. Simply remove the time-gates and add tier loot based upon the time the raid takes down the boss.

Simple. Elegant. I like it.

Doesn’t work because there’s no value to the “limit” placed unless you get absolutely nothing after a certain time and if that’s the case then you’re back at square one. So either the lazy gain rewards or the elite overprofit. This model hasn’t worked well in other games either.

Having a baseline reward for completing the raid at all, and improving rewards for improved time could work.

There is nothing, “lazy,” about less, “elite,” players spending hours grinding their way through content that other players can complete in a fraction of the time.

It is also not, “overprofit,” for a skilled team to earn greater rewards for performing better at the raid.

No. Because what you’re looking at is the integrity of the system from an honest vantage point. Players aren’t honest though, take the “elite players”, throw in some gold for the run, give the lesser players the ability to get through the thing for “base” rewards, and voila you’ve got an overprofit problem on two ends.

That’s exactly how it works in almost every system where there is someone who can profit off of another person’s ineptitude and that person can profit off of their professionalism. Let’s say that we have a team of 8 players who are OP, they know their stuff, and they can easily earn mid-level rewards by themselves and then you have the two who pay to get in to get the mid-level reward and then you’ve got the raid itself.

The elites get mid-level rewards + gold (or whatever the currency they want) and the “less than useful” get more rewards than the honest casual team because of the set-up. I can guarantee that’ll be the outcome.

As opposed to people paying for a spot in a top end team’s raid group now?

At least the suggestion gives the “honest” lower end players the possibility of experiencing the story (the point of this thread) without gutting the raid for higher end players, or requiring extensive dev resources for complete rework of the raid.

No option is perfect. Your issue with the suggestion is a reality now. The suggestion doesnt add it, in fact it reduces the possibility by making access to the story easier for players disinclined to pay someone else to play for them if they can do it themselves.

If the White Mantle and Mursaat are involved in Living Story Season 3, then yes, there needs to be a story mode version of the three raid wings. You are accompanied by Rytlock, Marjory, seeing as how they’re both in tune with the mists.

You guide them along, exploring the in-game areas first-hand. This is, for me, the most important part. Youtube videos created by somebody you may not even like and wiki descriptions are not suitable alternatives to understanding the scale and atmosphere of the in-game world. Nor can you take an hour leisurely reading NPC dialogue as it is happening.

This is not about lowering the challenge for people to use as a stepping stone to the ‘harder version’. It’s a Story Mode. Achievement progress should be disabled and nothing needs to give loot. The bosses should be downgraded to veterans and their mechanics practically unrecognisable from the regular raid wings.

..On the other hand, if the bandits are swiftly dealt with and the White Mantle storyline is going to have another 6+ year hiatus, don’t even bother…

Pretty sure I never asked for it.

Oldirtbeard.9834:

Pretty sure I never asked for it.

Pretty sure no one said that all players asked for raids. Just that players asked for raids.

Ashen.2907:

No. Because what you’re looking at is the integrity of the system from an honest vantage point. Players aren’t honest though, take the “elite players”, throw in some gold for the run, give the lesser players the ability to get through the thing for “base” rewards, and voila you’ve got an overprofit problem on two ends.

That’s exactly how it works in almost every system where there is someone who can profit off of another person’s ineptitude and that person can profit off of their professionalism. Let’s say that we have a team of 8 players who are OP, they know their stuff, and they can easily earn mid-level rewards by themselves and then you have the two who pay to get in to get the mid-level reward and then you’ve got the raid itself.

The elites get mid-level rewards + gold (or whatever the currency they want) and the “less than useful” get more rewards than the honest casual team because of the set-up. I can guarantee that’ll be the outcome.

As opposed to people paying for a spot in a top end team’s raid group now?

At least the suggestion gives the “honest” lower end players the possibility of experiencing the story (the point of this thread) without gutting the raid for higher end players, or requiring extensive dev resources for complete rework of the raid.

No option is perfect. Your issue with the suggestion is a reality now. The suggestion doesnt add it, in fact it reduces the possibility by making access to the story easier for players disinclined to pay someone else to play for them if they can do it themselves.

There are two problems:

1. You will have the efficiency problem. The most efficient way for the players to play is to perform secret handshakes; paying a top tier guild for a run for instance is one such handshake. Anet in their wisdom realized they can’t combat this and simply turn a blind eye to it.

2. The rewards have to scale up from their current status. What this means is that what rewards you get now are what would become “low” in the new system. You couldn’t give lower rewards. The reason why is because people have become accustomed to this tier, even if the only one, which could be seen in the catastrophe that was the Dungeon changes and nerfs slowly over time before the major one that pretty much closed them up.

Combined this means that you now have a solid economic solution, take individuals who can earn the highest rewards, have them charge more than the highest reward to those who would earn the lowest reward, and everyone shoots for the middle reward. The elites get a break because they aren’t working so hard and the unskilled get a buffer.

And it is because it is a reality that this occurs already that the system would be detrimental. Neither of us are ignorant of it already happening so what the question becomes is whether we are willing to allow individuals to simply overprofit on purpose. That’s the hardest part of “game balance”; making sure the bad kids and the good kids get somewhat equal rewards.

Yargesh.4965:

Oldirtbeard.9834:

DGraves.3720:

Ashen.2907:

DGraves.3720:

Ashen.2907:

curtegg.5216:

Solution is way more simpler than what was proposed above. Simply remove the time-gates and add tier loot based upon the time the raid takes down the boss.

Simple. Elegant. I like it.

Doesn’t work because there’s no value to the “limit” placed unless you get absolutely nothing after a certain time and if that’s the case then you’re back at square one. So either the lazy gain rewards or the elite overprofit. This model hasn’t worked well in other games either.

Having a baseline reward for completing the raid at all, and improving rewards for improved time could work.

There is nothing, “lazy,” about less, “elite,” players spending hours grinding their way through content that other players can complete in a fraction of the time.

It is also not, “overprofit,” for a skilled team to earn greater rewards for performing better at the raid.

No. Because what you’re looking at is the integrity of the system from an honest vantage point. Players aren’t honest though, take the “elite players”, throw in some gold for the run, give the lesser players the ability to get through the thing for “base” rewards, and voila you’ve got an overprofit problem on two ends.

That’s exactly how it works in almost every system where there is someone who can profit off of another person’s ineptitude and that person can profit off of their professionalism. Let’s say that we have a team of 8 players who are OP, they know their stuff, and they can easily earn mid-level rewards by themselves and then you have the two who pay to get in to get the mid-level reward and then you’ve got the raid itself.

The elites get mid-level rewards + gold (or whatever the currency they want) and the “less than useful” get more rewards than the honest casual team because of the set-up. I can guarantee that’ll be the outcome.

I hope ANet reads this and releases a lower difficulty map, hell make an open world zerg map that functions the same way as the current open world metas with the same open world rewards; if Trion can figure it out with their even more limited resources ANet has no excuse.

ANET did not make raids because they could not make open world content. They made raids because that is what was asked for by players. There was a CDI about it, I would have preferred open world, always have but the limitation was not on ANETs part.

I didn’t ask for raids and wasn’t here to participate in the CDI. I’m just not going to buy the next expansion if there is content that I can’t at least queue for to access. I don’t pay for others’ entertainment, I pay for mine.

We have one open raid (Dragon’s Stand, yes it’s a raid) and the closed one. Why?

curtegg.5216:

Solution is way more simpler than what was proposed above. Simply remove the time-gates and add tier loot based upon the time the raid takes down the boss.

How would that help the ones “who can’t access” the Raids?

Said it before, will say it again

Easy-Mode for Raids, with less difficulty and smaller rewards.
Hard-Mode for Dungeons, with higher difficulty/added mechanics and maybe Legendary trinkets as long term rewards, Hard-Mode gets you there faster of course.

Achievements for doing stuff in Hard-Mode(s), so ppl still get fancy titles/minis/skins and APs if they did it the hard way.

Everyone can do all the content at their own pace, get all the stuff yadda yadda yadda… Everyone is a happy camper.

CaptainVanguard.4925:

Okay, so the raiding community is clearly enjoying raiding, thats fine, I understand that challenging content can be a fun buzz for those that actually want it.

But when that content “does” include story which will probably be brought into season 3 and future updates, I have to disagree that having it exclusivly for the best players, is not healthy for the game.

Not everyone wants to “watch” someone else on youtube play the game “they” paid for in order to enjoy that storyline, so let me give you a compramise:

Two Options:

Option 1: Story Mode

Option 1 focuses on letting players who simply want to experience the actual story of the raid have it given to them on a silver platter. This drastically reduces the difficulty and challenge of the bosses, and gives you no real loot based value so dont expect many if “any” raid pieces of loot, but instead focuses on letting you “experience” the content while your doing it, rather than waiting for a group of welcoming newbies or trainer raids to let you onboard.

This gives those after the story side of content what they want, they dont care about the raid itself, they just want the lore, the story, and that experience that comes with it. Maybe at the end they can get a single loot box containing a collectable piece of raid gear e.g. White Mantle Box which contains a single white mantle weapon the first time you complete the raid on your account in story mode. After that, they have to earn the rest of the gear and git good like the rest of you.

This is a nice little compramise as it lets people who really “want” to experience the raid have an incentive to try, to do it again to get better at it, plus it almost serves as a tutorial, allowing newbies a chance to try out the raid for the first time.

I personally feel this option “would” be the best in some ways, but then lets look at option 2.

Option 2, Nerfing Irrelevent Content:

Okay, so this is the one that im sure raiders will yell at me for even suggesting but I have a confident feeling it will make alot of Majority players happy.

This idea goes down the path that, lets say the next raid is out, well, I doubt that many people will go to a now redundant raid with masteries no longer relevent to new content.

So with that in mind, nerf the raid, nerf it to the ground so that nearly everyone can access that content once it is no longer relevent, make it laughably easy compared to the challenge it once posed.

As a bonus to people that did the entire raid while it was relevent: Grant them a special title they can display and possibly a unique character portrait icon allowing them to brandish the “I did it when it was relevent” card while everyone else actually gets to “do” it when it isnt, and enjoy it at a relaxed rate.

I do not think nerfing content that is no longer relevent to the ground is honestly a sin, its not going to hurt raiders in the slightest who by that point will be busy doing some zhaitan themed raid, or temple of abbadon or what ever new content comes out for them.

Either way, lets meet in the middle, I think you guys can agree that “getting good” or “remaining exclusive” is a toxic attitude and new people “should” be allowed to experience content that is no longer relevent.

Let me give you some options.

Join a cleared instance. During the fights there’s no actual lore to enjoy. Raids can be opened after they are cleared – join an instance and enjoy all the exploration and lore.
This is basically your story mode.

It also gives you no reward – because nobody deserves anything for no effort.

Your story mode suggestion is basically this but “give me free stuff also pls”. No.

Your second suggestion is so bad it shouldn’t even be considered. The whole idea is that Raids are difficult content for hardcore players – something for them to do.
Why would you spend development time making content so you can cater to this crowd and then ruin it by nerfing it. It makes no sense.

There are new people getting into raids every day – there are new players coming to the game and others that start raiding for one reason or another – the content might not be new to me or other “veteran raiders” but it certainly is new for many others.

Why nerf it arbitrarily? It should remain the way it is in order for others to enjoy it as well.

Your “i doubt many people will still do the old raid” is laughable. There are fun skins, fun fights, fun mechanics, and other reasons to do it.
Ask yourself this – why do raiders clear wing 1 and 2 now that wing 3 is out?

Also let’s give an “exclusive reward” that’s basically nothing to veterans while allowing people who weren’t playing then to endlessly complain on the forums about it. Because they could have had it too – but just didn’t play at that time.

Considering how bad that second suggestion was – I don’t want to meet in the middle. But I would like to offer a classic alternative: How about you get good and just raid normally?

vifesprit.3514:

Option 3: a Legendary Dungeon

Adding a dungeon with Story mode (see option 1) and 3 paths that use Raid wings, and TOKENS to do a lengendary armor (but not the same skin as Raid)

Adding a PvP track for this dungeon so PvP players can do a legendary armor too.

Yeah – this is such a good idea. I’m sitting on about 4 stacks of PvP potions I haven’t gotten to use. Let’s do this PvP thing.

Wow.